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Wreck Commissioners' Court.

SCOTTISH HALL,

BUCKINGHAM GATE,

Wednesday, 22nd May, 1912.

PROCEEDINGS

WIITH

THE RIGHT HON. LORD MERSEY,

Wreck Commissioner of the United Kingdom,

WITH

REAR ADMIRAL THE HON. S. A. GOUGH-CALTHORPE, C.V.O., R.N.,

CAPTAIN A. W. CLARKE,

COMMANDER F. C. A. LYON, R.N.R.,

PROFESSOR J. H. BILES, LL.D., D.Sc.,

MR. E. C. CHASTON, R.N.R.

Acting as Assessors.

ON A FORMAL INVESTIGATION

ORDERED BY THE BOARD OF TRADE INTO THE

LOSS OF THE S. S. "TITANIC."

THIRTEENTH DAY.

THE RIGHT HON. SIR RUFUS ISAACS, K.C., M.P. (Attorney-General), SIR JOHN SIMON, K.C., M.P. (Solicitor-General), MR. BUTLER ASPINAL, K.C., MR. S. A. T. ROWLATT and MR. RAYMOND ASQUITH (instructed by SIR R. ELLIS CUNLIFFE, Solicitor to the Board of Trade) appeared as Counsel on behalf of the Board of Trade.

THE RIGHT HON. SIR ROBERT FINLAY, K.C., M.P., MR. P. LAING, K.C., MR. MAURICE HILL., K.C., and MR. NORMAN RAEBURN (instructed by Messrs. Hill, Dickinson and Co.), appeared as counsel on behalf of the White Star line.

MR. THOMAS SCANLAN, M.P. (instructed by Mr. Smith, Solicitor), appeared as Counsel on behalf of the National Sailors' and Firemen's Union of Great Britain and Ireland and of the personal representatives of several deceased members of the crew and of survivors who were members of the Union. (Admitted On application.)

MR. B0TTERELL (instructed by Messrs. Botterell and Roche) appeared on behalf of the Chamber of Shipping of the United Kingdom. (Admitted on application.)

MR. THOMAS LEWIS appeared on behalf of the British Seafarers' Union. (Admitted on application.)

MR. L. S. HOLMES (of Messrs. Miller, Taylor and Holmes, of Liverpool) appeared on behalf of the Imperial Merchant Service Guild. (Admitted on application.)

MR. COTTER appeared on behalf of the National Union of Stewards. (Admitted on application.)

MR. HAMAR GREENWOOD, M.P. (instructed by Messrs. Pritchard and Sons), watched proceedings on behalf of the Allan Line Steamship Company.

MR. HAMAR GREENWOOD, M.P. (instructed by Messrs. William A. Crump and Son), watched proceedings for the Canadian Pacific Railway Company.

MR. ROCHE (instructed by Messrs. Charles G. Bradshaw and Waterson) appeared on behalf of the Marine Engineers' Association. (Admitted on application.)

MR. A. CLEMENT EDWARDS. M.P., (instructed by Messrs. Helder, Roberts and Co.), appeared as Counsel on behalf of the Dock, Wharf, Riverside, and General Workers Union of Great Britain and Ireland. (Admitted on application.)

MR. W. D. HARBINSON (instructed by Mr. Farrell) appeared on behalf of the third-class passengers. (Admitted on application.)

MR. ROBERTSON DUNLOP watched the proceedings on behalf of the owners and officers of the s.s. "Californian." (Leyland Line). (Admitted on Application.)

MR. H. E. DUKE, K. C., M. P., and MR. VAUGHAN WILIAMS (instructed by Messrs. A. F. and R. W. Tweedie) appeared as Counsel on behalf of Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon. (Admitted on Application.)

Page 346

HERBERT JOHN PITMAN, Sworn.

Examined by Mr. BUTLER ASPINALL.

Were you serving as Third Officer on the "Titanic" at the time of this accident? - Yes.
What certificate do you hold? - Ordinary Master.
How long have you been in the service of the "White Star" Line? - Five and a-half years.
And during those 5 1/2 years have you been travelling backwards and forwards across the Atlantic? - A twelve-month only.
And have you had considerable experience on the sea in other parts of the world besides the Atlantic? - Sixteen years.
Twelve months experience in the Atlantic? - Of the North Atlantic.
I will get this fact from you now, it comes a little later in your story. You were saved in boat No. 5, were you not? - Yes.
(Mr. Butler Aspinall.) We have had some evidence with regard to boat No. 5, my Lord, but not of a very satisfactory character. It is the evidence of Shiers, the fireman, at page 113. He was not able to give us very useful evidence with regard to the matter. It is Question 4653: - "(Q.) Then you got into No. 5? Was No. 5 lowered? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) Who were in No. 5? You were, who else? - (A.) One other fireman, a steward, and a quartermaster. (Q.) And were there some women and children in No. 5? - (A.) Women, no children. (Q.) Do you know how many women? - (A.) No. (Q.) Was the boat full or not? - (A.) It was not full - as many as it would take off the davits was what the officer said - as many as he thought the boat would take off the davits." (To the Witness.) To come to the Sunday, the 14th, at the time of the accident you were off watch and asleep in your cabin, were you not? - That is right.
When before, on that day, had you last been on duty? - 6 to 8 p.m.
And before in the course of that day, had you been on duty? - 12 to 4 in the afternoon.
Was it within your knowledge that the ship would probably meet with ice that evening? - We knew that we should be in the longitude of ice.
Who told you that? - I saw it in a Marconigram.
Do you know from which ship that Marconigram had come? - I have no idea.
Did you particularly concern yourself with that matter? - No, I simply looked at them and saw that there was no ice reported on the track.
Did you see one Marconigram or two Marconigrams? - Two, I think.
Were these posted in some part of the ship? - Yes, in the chart room.
And you read them, did you? - Yes.
Was there any discussion between you and any other of the officers about the fact that you would probably meet ice that night? - I do not think so.
Do you mean you do not remember? - I do not remember it.
As you have said, you were turned in at the time the vessel struck the iceberg, and, I believe, asleep? - Yes.
You were aroused and at first did you think much had happened? - No, I did not.
What was it aroused you; was it a noise, or a jar, or what? - A noise; I thought the ship was coming to anchor.
Did you lie on in your bunk for some few minutes? - I did.
At the end of those few minutes did you do anything? - Yes. I went on deck.
Was that curiosity; or what took you there? - Yes, I suppose it was.
Getting on deck, what did you see or hear? - I saw nothing and heard nothing.
Did you go to the forward part of the navigation bridge? - No, I only just went outside the quarters.
The officers' quarters? - That is all.
As it were, put your head out and saw nothing? - No, I went on deck.
Seeing and hearing nothing, what did you do then? - I went back inside again.
And turned in again? - No, I met Mr. Lightoller first of all, and I asked him what had happened, if we had hit something, and he said, "Yes, evidently."
He said "Evidently"? - Yes, evidently something had happened.
After you had received that information what did you do? - I went to bed.
How long did you remain in bed? - It may have been five minutes.
And at the end of five minutes what did you do? - I thought I might as well get up, as it was no use trying to go to sleep again, as I was due on watch in a few minutes.
Your watch was the middle watch, from 12 to 4? - That night, yes.
Did you get up and proceed to dress? - Yes.
While you were dressing did you receive any information? - Mr. Boxhall came to my room and said the mail-room was afloat.
How long do you think had elapsed between the time you were aroused and Mr. Boxhall coming and telling you this? - I should think it must be 20 minutes.
Did he give you any information as to what had caused the mail-room to be afloat? - Yes; I asked him what we had struck, and he said an iceberg.
After that did you quickly proceed with your dressing? - Yes, I put my coat on and went on deck.
When you got on deck, did you see anything being done? - The men were uncovering the boats.
On which side was that? - That was on the port side.
Did you meet the Sixth Officer when you went on deck, Mr. Moody? - Yes; I met him on the afterpart of the deck.
Did he give you any information? - No, I asked him if he had seen the iceberg; he answered, No, but there was ice on the forward well deck.
I believe you at that time did not think anything serious had happened, did you? - I did not.
Then, I think, you went and looked at some ice, and, after having looked at the ice, did you then go under the forecastle head to see if any structural damage had been done to the bow of the ship? - Exactly.
I believe you saw none. As you were coming from the forecastle, did you see any firemen? - Yes, I saw a whole crowd of them coming up from below.
Did you ask them what was causing them to come up? - Yes.
What was their answer? - That the water was coming into their quarters.
Which side were the firemen coming, the port or starboard side? - The starboard side.
In consequence of what they told you, did you go and do anything? - No, I simply looked down No. 1 hatch and saw water rushing up No. 1 hatch, or at least round it.
Is that the hatch which has the coamings which I think we were told was on G deck? - Yes, the same one that Symons was speaking of the other day.
Was the water coming in fast or slow, or how? - Quite a little stream, both sides of the hatch.
Did you notice what direction it was flowing from; was it flowing from forward to aft, or how, or did not you notice? - Well, I think it was running mostly from the starboard side.
Running from the starboard side? - Yes.

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The Commissioner: I do not understand that.

(Mr. Butler Aspinall - To the Witness.) What do you mean by from the starboard side? - Coming in from the starboard side of the ship.
The Commissioner: That I understand.
(Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Seeing that, did you then go back to the boat deck? - Yes.
Were the boats still being uncovered, or had they finished the uncovering of the boats then? - I could not say what had happened on the port side. I then returned to the starboard side and they were still uncovering the boats.
You are now on the starboard side, and I think you remained on the starboard side, did you not? - Yes.
Did you see the First Officer taking part in getting the boats ready? - No, I did not see him.
Did you hear any orders being given? - No more than getting the boats filled with women and children, that is all I heard.
Did you go to anyone of these boats? - Yes, I went to No. 5.
Did you go to No. 7 first? - No, Mr. Murdoch was there. I did not see him.
Which was your boat? - No. 1 is my boat usually in case of emergency.
If there was an emergency you would take charge of No. 1, is that so? - Yes, that is in case of a man overboard, and things like that.
Was your name on the boat list, as being the officer to look after that boat? - Yes, as an emergency.
We have been told that there are boat lists put up about the ship; that is so, is it not? - That is so.
(The Commissioner.) Did you ever read your name on any list? - I did not, as it is an understood thing the Third Officer looks after No.1 boat.
You did not see your name on any list? - No.
(Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Would it be your duty to inform yourself as to what your boat was according to the list? - No, it is quite an understood thing in the Company for the Third and Fourth Officers to have No. 1 and No. 2 boat.
Apart from understandings, would it be your duty at the beginning of the voyage to go and ascertain what boat was your boat? - No.
It is not your duty?
The Commissioner: If, Mr. Aspinall, it was the invariable practice for him to attend to No. 1 emergency boat, there was no occasion for him to look at the list.
(Mr. Butler Aspinall.) No, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Now you went in fact to No. 5. Why was that? - Mr. Murdoch ordered me there.
Was there any other officer there? - I did not see anyone.
Of course, you know all the officers? - Oh, yes.
If there had been one there you would have known? - Mr. Murdoch was there before the boat was lowered.
Had you seen Murdoch there at No. 5, or merely heard his voice? - Oh, no, I saw him.
At No. 5? - At No. 5, after the boat was out and practically filled with passengers.
When you got to No. 5, in what state was No. 5? - Well, the cover was still on.
How long do you think had elapsed from the time of striking the berg up to the time you got to No. 5? It is difficult, I know, to be certain about time. Was it half an hour or 45 minutes? Let me help you. You gave me one space of time - about 20 minutes? - Yes, I remember that.
Will that help you to approximate what you think was the time between the striking of the iceberg and your getting to boat No. 5? Was it an hour, do you think? - No, I should think it would be about 12.20.
You say the cover was still on. Was the cover being stripped at the time you got there? - It was being uncovered then - Yes.
Did you see Mr. Ismay close to this boat? - I did.
Was he taking any part, saying anything, or doing anything? - He remarked to me as we were uncovering the boat, "There is no time to lose." Of course, I did not know who he was then, and therefore did not take any notice.
You have since learned that that gentleman was Mr. Ismay, have you? - Yes.
How many men had you helping at this boat? - I think four.
Were they sailor men, or could you tell in the darkness of the night? - Well, I knew that two were.
And was the boat uncovered and swung out? - Yes.
What was done with it? Was it then lowered to the level of the boat deck? - It was lowered level.
And after you had got out to the level of the boat deck, what did you do with regard to passengers? - Mr. Ismay remarked to me to get it filled with women and children, to which I replied, "I will await the Commander's orders." I then went to the bridge, and I saw Captain Smith, and I told him what Mr. Ismay had said. He said, "Carry on."
(The Commissioner.) What does that mean? - Go ahead.
(Mr. Butler Aspinall.) At this time, did you realise that this gentleman was Mr. Ismay, or did you still think he was one of the passengers? - Oh, I knew then that it was Mr. Ismay - Yes, judging by the descriptions I had had given me of him.
The Captain told you to "carry on." Did you then return to the boat deck? - I was already there; I returned to No. 5.
Yes, you were on it. You returned to your boat No. 5? - Yes.
When you got back, were any people being put into it? - None at all.
What happened then? - I simply stood in the boat and said, "Come along, ladies," and helped them in - Mr. Ismay helped to get them there.
How many ladies did you get in? - I do not know; between 30 and 40, I should imagine.
Were there any children? - Yes, we had two.
Could you tell whether these women were first, second or third class passengers that were getting into the boat? - Most, I should say, would be first class.
In addition to those women that you got into the boat, did you take any male passengers in? - Yes, I should say about half-a-dozen or more.
Why did you let the male passengers in? - Simply because there were no more women around - at least, there were two there, but they would not come.
Did they give you any reason for refusing to come? - No.
You say there were no other women around? Could you see whether there were other women in other parts of the boat deck? Did you notice at that time? - There were none in sight at that time - at least, not on the starboard deck.
In view of the number that you had got into the boat at this time, did you think that that was as many as this boat would safely carry before she was lowered to the water? - No, I did not decide how many she should take.
Who decided that? - Mr. Murdoch, he came along just then.
What did he say? - Well, I jumped out of the boat then, ready to lower away, and he said, "You go in charge of this boat, and also look after the others, and stand by to come along the after gangway when hailed."
Did you go in charge of this boat? - I did.
There were 30 to 40 women you have told us, two children, about half-a-dozen male passengers, yourself, and how many of the crew? - Four.
(The Commissioner.) Did the four include yourself? - No, my Lord.
(Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Did you say something about Mr. Murdoch saying he would hail you when he wanted you alongside the gangway? - Yes. He said, "Keep handy to come to the after gangway." Therefore, I understood he would hail us.

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You understood it? - Yes.
Was the boat properly lowered away? - It was.
And you got put down to the waters edge? - Yes.
On reaching the water what was done with that boat? - We pulled away about 100 yards from the side of the ship.
And then? - Lay on our oars.
Did you take her in the direction of the gangway, in case Mr. Murdoch might hail you and order you back? - Well, we dropped astern a little.
That would be somewhere in the direction towards the gangway? - Yes.
(The Commissioner.) Just put your finger on the gangway you are talking about. (The Witness pointed it out on the model.) That is right aft? - Yes, he said the after gangway.
(Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Before you left the ship had you heard any order given about lowering the gangway or opening the gangway door? - No, that was the first I knew of it.
After you were in the boat and had rowed out this 100 yards somewhat astern did you notice whether the gangway door was open or not? - I do not think it was.
You probably were looking in that direction? - Well, I was watching the ship the whole time.
And you do not think it was opened? - I do not.
The Commissioner: How many gangways are there that side of the ship?
Mr. Butler Aspinall: I think two, my Lord, but I speak subject to correction.
The Commissioner: The gangway we have heard of yesterday was forward.
Mr. Butler Aspinall: Yes.
The Solicitor-General: Yesterday we did hear of them at both ends.
Mr. Butler Aspinall: 12 or 13 the builders tell me.
The Commissioner: On each side?
Mr. Butler Aspinall: No. I am told there are eight passenger gangways.
The Commissioner: Does that mean four on each side?
Mr. Butler Aspinall: Yes.
The Commissioner: But they are not on the same level.
(Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Two on D deck amidships - one on E deck forward and aft; that would make four on the one side and four on the other. If I might go back for one moment - I do not know whether it is important or not, but it might become important - did Mr. Murdoch, in addition to telling you to keep handy to come back to the gangway, say anything more to you? - No; he only shook hands and said, "Good-bye, good luck"; that was all.
When he said "Good-bye" to you in that way, did you think the situation was serious; did you think the ship was doomed then? - I did not, but I thought he must have thought so.
Again, with regard to the time, how long do you think it was between the time of striking the berg and your boat reaching the water. You have given me two estimates of time, 20 minutes, and 12.20. Could you help me on this matter? - Well, I should think it would be about 12.30 when No. 5 boat reached the water.
I do not know whether this will help you to see whether that is right. Was your boat in the water about an hour before the "Titanic" went down? - I think it was longer than that.
Much longer or a little longer? - It is hard to say.
Now, I have got you in the boat somewhere about 100 yards from the ship, you watching the ship. Whilst you were watching the ship did you then begin to think she was in a condition in which it was probable she might be lost? - No, I did not give up hopes until I saw the last line of lights on the forecastle head disappear.
When you reached the water and were in the boat, did you see then that her head was getting deeper and deeper in the water? - Oh, yes, I watched the different lines of lights disappear.
Did you see any other boat on the water anywhere near you after your boat had reached the water? - Are you alluding to one of our boats?
Yes, I mean one of the "Titanic" boats? - Yes, No. 7 was quite close to me.
Was No. 7, as far as you know, in the water before yours or after? - No. 7 was before; it was the first boat launched on the starboard side.
No. 7? - No. 7.
And the second boat was? - No 5, and No. 3 next.
How do you know No. 3 came next? Did you see it? - I saw it coming down; I saw it being lowered.
Did you notice any other boats on that side being lowered? - I did not.
You speak of 7, 5, and 3? - 7, 5, and 3, yes.
In that order? The Solicitor-General points out that Jewell refers to this that No. 7 was the first boat on the starboard side.
The Solicitor-General: At page 19, Question 147, Jewell says he was in the boat, and it was the first to go on the starboard side.
The Witness: That is right.
(Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Tell me with regard to the equipment of the boat you were in, do you know whether it had a lamp or not? - Mine had not.
Did you look for it? - I did.
And would you, as an officer, know what was the right place to look for the lamp? - Exactly.
Was there any compass in your boat? - No.
Did you look for it? - Well, I did not at the time, because it would be absolutely useless to me.
But how do you know there was no compass? You say you did not look at the time. Did you look at some later time? - Yes, after the boats were on the "Carpathia."
Was there any water in your boat? - Yes.
In what? Breakers? - In two breakers.
Two breakers? - Yes.
Were there any biscuits? - Yes.
In what? - A tank in the stern of the boat.
Whilst you were in the boat and before the ship sank, did you see any light or lights which you took to be the light or lights of another steamer? - I saw a white light which I took to be the stern light of a sailing ship.
How far away did you judge it to be? - I thought it was about five miles.
That would be a good distance to see a stern light, would it not? - Yes, it may have been less.
Was it a good night for seeing a light; for seeing a good stern light? - An excellent night.
They would be visible at a long distance? - Yes.
Whilst you were in the boat did you notice the "Titanic" sending up rockets? - Yes, she did.
We have heard this in detail. Was there good discipline and order maintained in your boat? - Well, that is not for me to say; it is for other people to say that.
(The Commissioner.) No, but you are asked your opinion? - As regards the passengers, yes, and the crew.
(Mr. Butler Aspinall.) I am not suggesting you did not behave well; I am only asking the question for the information of the Court. It is a general question asked with regard to all the boats. I am not suggesting for one moment that there was anything wrong. You behaved well, I have no doubt? - I do not know about myself; it is not for me to say that.
You say the passengers and the crew behaved well? - They did.
Well, that exhausts it. Now you saw the vessel go down? - Yes.
What did she do when she went down; you were an officer, perhaps you can tell us. Inquires have been made of others. How did she sink? She sank by the head, we know that? - Yes.

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The Commissioner: Just describe it in your own way.
Mr. Butler Aspinall: May I hand him the profile.

(The Commissioner.) Yes. (To the Witness.) - Describe it in your own way. (The profile was handed to the Witness.) - That is the position I saw her in when we left. She gradually disappeared like that; she went right on end like that and went down that way (demonstrating).
Did her afterpart ever right itself? - I should not think so; I did not see it.
Before she finally disappeared? - No.
Could you have seen it if it had happened? - I think so; I was only barely 100 yards away.
Were you keeping your eyes upon her? - I was.
You know this is suggested - supposing that is the head of the ship and going down in this way with the afterpart coming up in that way; a number of witnesses have said that before she finally foundered, plunged into the sea, the afterpart righted itself like that and then she went down. The question is whether you think that is true that she broke in two in that way bringing her afterpart level with the water again and then went down in that way. Did she crack in the middle? - I do not think so. If the afterpart had broken off it would have remained afloat.
Not broken off, but cracked in that way? - No.
At all events, the point is this: Did you see the afterend of the ship - you saw it up in the air - right itself and come flush with the water again? - It did not.
And you say you looked, and if it had happened you would have seen it? - Certainly.
1. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) While you were in the water, before the "Titanic" sank, did you hear any hail either from Mr. Murdoch or the Captain or from anybody else to come back near the gangway? - No.
Did you hear anybody on the "Titanic" using a megaphone? - I did not.
Did you transfer any of your passengers to any other boat? - Yes, I transferred four, I think it was.
Into what boat? - I am not quite certain of the number, but I think it was No. 7.
Why did you transfer those passengers? - Because they had a less number of passengers in that boat than I had.
As the "Titanic" sank and immediately after did you hear any screams? - Immediately after she sank?
Yes? - Yes.
Were you able to go in the direction of the screams and render any assistance? - I did not go.
But do you think you could have gone? I am not suggesting anything; I only want to get the facts from you. Do you think it would have been safe or reasonable to go? - I do not.
What is your reason? - Well, there was such a mass of people in the water we should have been swamped.
In your view you had a sufficient number of people on your boat. Is that so? - No, but I had too many in the boat to go back to the wreck.
And I think you remained on, the men more or less lying on their oars till daylight, and then you were picked up by the "Carpathia"? - Yes; we lay at rest the remainder of the night.
(The Commissioner.) Before you go into that there are two questions I want to put. (To the Witness.) Whereabouts were you when the "Titanic" sank? - About 200 yards away.
On what side? - On the starboard quarter.
Would that be about abreast of the mainmast? - About that, my Lord.
(Mr. Butler Aspinall.) When you gave evidence in America you said this: I want to know if you say it is accurate. You were asked: "Can you fix the exact moment of time when the "Titanic" disappeared? - Two-twenty exactly, ship's time. I took my watch out at the time she disappeared, and I said, 'It is 2.20,' and the passengers around me heard it."
Do you remember giving that evidence? - That is true, yes.
That is correct? - Yes.
I want you to give me the benefit of your views on this matter. One of the questions which will probably be asked is this: "Had the 'Titanic' the means of throwing searchlights around her. If so, did she make use of them to discover ice? Should searchlights have been provided and used?" In view of your experience of these waters and also as an officer and a sailor, what is your view as to the utility of searchlights when you are in the ice region? - They might be of some assistance.
(The Commissioner.) Have you ever seen them used? - No, my Lord.
(Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Have you ever considered the matter before I asked you the question? - No, I have never considered it before.
(The Commissioner.) Do you know whether searchlights are used upon any Atlantic liners for the purpose of ascertaining whether there is ice? - I never heard of it, my Lord.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

During your watches from 6 to 8 and previously from 12 till 4 were you in charge of the bridge? - No.
Who was the officer with you? - The Chief, 2 to 6 in the afternoon.
From 12 to 4? - The First and Chief.
And from 6 to 8? - The Second.
Was the whole of the knowledge that you had of icebergs obtained from the chart?
The Commissioner: From the chart room.
(Mr. Scanlan.) From the chart in the chart room? - No, from the Marconigrams.
Were any Marconigrams handed to you from 12 to 4? - Not to me.
Had you seen any Marconigram that reached the ship with reference to ice from 12 to 4 on Sunday? - I saw two that reached the ship that day. I have no idea what time they arrived.
You saw two that day? - Yes.
Do you know whether they were Marconigrams that had come the previous day, on the Saturday? - No, they came on the Sunday.
Are you quite sure of that? - Yes.
Did you read them? - Yes, I read one - yes.
You read one, but you did not read the other? - No, not to remember what was on it.
With respect to the one that you did read, can you tell us what was on it? - No, no more than it stated, "Ice in longitude 49 to 51 W."
Where did it come from? - I have no idea.
Had it come on the Sunday? - It must have done. Had it come on the Saturday I should have seen it before.
When ice is reported to you, is it the duty of someone on the bridge or in the chart room to indicate on the chart kept in the chart room the location of the ice? - I do not know about its being duty; we often do it; in fact, we usually do it.
I see you gave evidence on this matter in America. You said in answer to Senator Smith: "You stated a few minutes ago that the Second Officer, I believe, reported ice on the Saturday night? (Mr. Pitman.) No, I said the Fourth Officer. (Senator Smith.) Mr. Lowe? (Mr. Pitman.) Mr. Boxhall." Did you give this evidence: "(Senator Smith.) You said Mr. Boxhall reported ice Saturday night, and that it was marked on the

Page 350

chart with a cross"? - That is a mistake. It is Sunday night.

15121. It is a mistake? - Yes, it was Sunday night. 15122. Where was it marked? - On the North Atlantic Track Chart. 15123. I know it was marked on the Chart, but where was it marked with reference to the course you were steering? - Some miles north of it. 15124. It was marked some miles north of the course you were steering. You were also questioned as to whether you had been made aware on the Sunday of any message which the "Titanic" had received from the "Californian" about ice. You were asked: "Did you learn from Mr. Lightoller that the 'Californian' had warned the 'Titanic' that she was in the vicinity of icebergs? (Mr. Pitman.) I did not, Sir. . . . We had no conversation whatever. (Senator Smith.) Did you hear anything about a wireless from the 'Californian' on the direction of icebergs? (Mr. Pitman.) I did not, Sir." Is that the true state of the facts? - That is so, yes; I did not know anything about the "Californian" till the Monday morning. 15125. That is, although you were an officer on the bridge from 6 to 8 you know nothing of any wireless having come from the "Californian"? - None came from 6 to 8 p.m. 15126. Or from any other ship?
The Solicitor-General: Do you mean the "Californian," Mr. Scanlan? 15127. (Mr. Scanlan.) Yes. (To the Witness.) I think they did get a message about 6? - No messages arrived between those hours. 15127a. Had any message arrived that day that you knew of? - The two Marconigrams I mentioned before arrived that day. That is all I know of.
The Commissioner: You are talking about the Sunday?
Mr. Scanlan: Yes. The Commissioner: He has told us he saw two Marconigrams on the Sunday which had not arrived on the Saturday, but that he does not know what ships they came from. 15128. (Mr. Scanlan - To the Witness.) Was any mark put on the chart on the Sunday with reference to any messages you received on the Sunday? - Yes, as far as I can remember, one was put on the chart between 4 and 6. 15129. Who put it on? - Well, it was either Mr. Boxhall or Mr. Moody. Mr. Boxhall does not seem to have any recollection of it, so it must have been Mr. Moody. 15130. You saw it put on? - I saw it there when I came on deck at 6 p.m. 15131. During your watches did the Captain come on the bridge, from 6 to 8 or from 12 to 4? - Well, he frequently comes on the bridge. I cannot recollect - yes he was on the bridge from 6 to 8. 15132. Had you any conversation with him about icebergs or messages in relation to them? - None whatever. 15133. Were you spoken to by any of your brother officers with reference to the position of icebergs? - I cannot recollect. 15134. In America you were asked this: "Did you personally direct your attention to the question of icebergs," and your answer was, "No, Sir"? - That is right. 15135. Whether or not warnings had been received on the Sunday you had no impression up till you left the bridge at 8 o'clock that the course of the ship was tending in the direction of icebergs? - No, it was not. 15136. (The Commissioner.) I do not understand that question, nor do I understand the answer. (To the Witness.) You had a chart before you, "seven miles north," I think you said? - I said "several," I think. 15137. The chart that you saw was marked? - Yes. 15138. You did not know who marked it? - No; it was either the Fourth or Sixth Officer. 15139. It was marked for the purpose of showing the locality in which, according to the Marconigrams, ice had been seen? - Yes, my Lord. 15140. And was that locality as marked on the chart several miles north of the course that you were making? - Yes, my Lord. 15141. (Mr. Scanlan.) If I may return for a moment to this question of the message from the "Californian" about ice. It is your evidence, both in America and here, that you received no intimation from the Captain or anyone else that between 6 and 8 on the Sunday night the "Californian" had told you about ice? - I had heard nothing about it, no.
Mr. Scanlan: One of my friends has pointed out to me, my Lord, that in the evidence of Cyril Evans, the operator, at page 202, Question 8967, he is asked about the S.G. message, and he says he was prepared to offer information. "And what was the information that you were prepared to offer the 'Titanic'? - (A.) I told him 'S.G. ice report.' (Q.) That means that you were in a position to give him some news about ice? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) Is this shortly after half-past seven? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) What did the 'Titanic' say to you when you offered your ice report? - (A.) He said, 'It is all right. I heard you sending it to the 'Antillian,' and I have got it." If such a message was received between 6 and 8, say at half-past 7, which is the time mentioned here on the "Titanic," would it be in the course of duty for someone to bring that message immediately to the bridge?
The Commissioner: Well, Mr. Scanlan, what occurs to me is this. That message had already been received earlier.
Mr. Scanlan: At 6.30.
The Commissioner: Well, whatever the time was it had been received earlier. The answer is, "We have already had that message."
Mr. Scanlan: The answer is, "I have heard you sending it to the 'Antillian.'"
The Commissioner: They had picked up the message to the "Antillian," so that they knew it already.
Mr. Scanlan: It is on the same watch. There is evidence on the previous page from this officer.
The Solicitor-General: Question 8943.
Mr. Scanlan: Yes. Question 8943, page 201. "What was the message which you sent the 'Antillian' at that time? - (A.) It was a message reporting ice: 'To Captain, Antillian, 6.30 p.m., apparent time.'"
The Commissioner: What does "apparent time" mean?
Mr. Scanlan: Ship's time, my Lord.
The Commissioner: What time would that be on the "Titanic"?
The Solicitor-General: Two questions further up show it, I think, my Lord. Mr. Scanlan: 8939, "Can you tell us what time it was that you were communicating with the 'Antillian,' and then tell us what the message was you sent? - (A.) Five thirty five p.m., on the 14th. (Q.) That is New York time? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) In ship's time then, that would mean 7.30, would it not? - (A.) Yes."
The Commissioner: What ship's time?
Mr. Scanlan: It would mean the time on the "Californian." This operator would be speaking of the time on his own ship, I presume.
The Solicitor-General: I remember putting the question, and it follows on Question 8935. I had asked the witness: "What is the difference between New York time and ship's time at the place where you stopped? - (A.) One hour and 55 minutes. (Q.) That means one would have to add one hour 55 minutes to New York time to get at your ship's time at the place where you stopped? - (A.) Yes." That is where the "Californian" stopped. He says one hour and 55 minutes, and it was on that answer that I put the following question: "Can you tell us what time it was that you were communicating with the 'Antillian,' and then tell us what the message was you sent? - (A.) Five-thirty-five p.m. on the 14th. (Q.) That is New York time? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) In ship's time, then, that would mean 7.30, would it not? - (A.) Yes." 15142. (Mr. Scanlan.) If a message was sent by the "Californian" at ship's time, at your ship's time, 7.30, could you expect that this message, indicating

Page 351

ice in a certain latitude and longitude would be reported to you on the bridge? - Yes, the Marconigram would have been brought to the chart room.

15143. It should have been brought to the chart room? - It would have been. 15144. And if it had been, this is the message that is reported to have been sent: "To Captain, 'Antillian,' 6.30 p.m., apparent time; ship, latitude, 42.3 north; longitude, 49.9 west. Three large bergs five miles to southward of us. Regards - Lord." Would that have been indicated on your chart? - We never received that. 15145. You had no intimation that that had been received? - None. 15146. That would not have corresponded, I take it, with the position which had been marked on your chart already. You say the ice position was marked on the chart some time either on the Saturday or Sunday? - Sunday night. The Commissioner: Not on Saturday; Sunday. 15147. (Mr. Scanlan.) On Sunday. Was that position marked on Sunday northward of the position indicated by this message? - I do not know. 15148. It is "42 deg. 3 mm. N., 49 deg. 9 min. W.; three large bergs five miles to southward of us"? - I cannot say; I cannot remember the position of the other that was put on the chart. Mr. Laing: My Lord, it is within two miles of the "Caronia's" position; I worked it out. 15149. (Mr. Scanlan.) At what hour did you see the chart being marked - in the afternoon or evening? - I did not see the chart actually marked; I saw the mark there when I came on deck at 6 p.m. 15150. The mark that you saw was the mark which was there at all events at 6 p.m.? - Yes, it was put on there between 4 and 6.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

15151. Did you know that your wireless operator, Phillips I think his name was, had been sending out a C.Q.D. message? - No, I had no idea. 15152. And did you know prior to the time you went to lower the boats, whether or not any replies had been received or any information received as to vessels coming to your assistance? - No, I did not know any had been sent or any received. I took it for granted that they had been. 15153. You did not know then that the "Carpathia" was coming? - I had no idea. 15154. After the collision do you know if any general alarm was sounded on the "Titanic" to give notice to the passengers - to rouse the passengers? - No; no general alarm. 15155. Is there any provision made on steamships of the "Titanic" class for giving a general alarm in times of emergency or danger? - No more than sending people round to rouse the others; that is all. 15156. Do you not think it would be a very desirable and efficient way of giving information to the passengers generally to sound a general alarm rather than by sending individual messages round? - No, I do not. 15157. I think you said that when your boat put off, that is No. 5 boat, you took some male passengers? - Yes. 15158. And at that time there were no women around? - Well, I saw two standing by, but they would not leave. 15159. Do you know as a matter of fact of your own knowledge that a large number of women were drowned in the "Titanic" disaster? - I have no idea how many were drowned. 15160. I did not ask you if you knew how many? - I have no idea. 15161. You do not know whether there was a large number drowned or not? - I have no idea. 15162. You have not heard? - No, I only know that there were 1,600 people. 15163. And you do not know whether many of them were women or not? - No. 15164. There is no question that on this Sunday afternoon you knew that the "Titanic" was entering into a neighbourhood in which ice had been reported? - No, we were not. 15165. You knew that ice had been reported from the "Baltic" and some of the other steamers which have been mentioned? - Yes, but all the ice was reported north of us. 15166. Do you agree that there is a tendency for ice to drift from north to south? - Yes. 15167. As a matter of fact, would it not be possible to mark with absolute accuracy on a chart the exact location in which you would expect to find ice? - We could not stick it down to a few feet. 15168. Or a few miles? - Yes, you could. 15169. A few miles? - Yes. 15170. You think so? - I do. 15171. You knew, at any rate, that at some time or other of the passage you might be in the vicinity of ice? - Yes, we might be. 15172. In view of what has occurred, do you not think now it amounted to culpable recklessness to drive the "Titanic" at a speed of over 21 ½ knots? The Commissioner: I am afraid you cannot ask him that question. He is not the person to find the people in charge of this ship guilty or not guilty of culpable negligence. Mr. Harbinson: I submit respectfully to your Lordship's ruling. I was putting it to him more or less in the capacity of an expert witness. The Commissioner: You must leave me, I am afraid, for that. 15173. (Mr. Harbinson.) I will observe your ruling. (To the Witness.) Do you know at what time the course that the steamer was to take was mapped out that day? - Yes, noon. 15174. And, so far as you know, was the steamer's course deflected at all from the course that had been marked out at noon; did it vary to the south, or in any way from the course which had been marked out at noon? - Yes, I considered we went at least 10 miles further south than was necessary. 15175. Do I understand you rightly that in marking the course at noon, the course was marked 10 miles further south than you considered necessary? - No. We had a certain distance to run to a corner, from noon to certain time, and we did not alter the course so early as I anticipated. Therefore we must have gone much further south. 15176. When did you alter the course? - 5.50. 15177. Who was responsible for the alteration? - The Commander. 15178. To whom did he give the order? - The officers of the watch. 15179. Do you know their names? - Mr. Wilde. 15180. Were you there? - No. 15181. Do you know what conversation took place? - No. 15182. But you say he gave instructions to alter the course of the ship? - The course was altered at 5.50. They were the Commander's orders. 15183. Ten miles further south. Was any record made of that at the time? - No, and I thought that the course should have been altered at 5 p.m.. 15184. Why did you think so? - Judging from the distance run from noon. 15185. What time did you think you were going to be in the neighbourhood of ice? - I was not thinking about the ice at all. 15186. Had you made any calculation? - No, I had not. 15187. It had not occurred to you although those Marconigrams had been received? - No, I saw that certain bergs were marked on the chart and that was quite sufficient. 15188. That is to say, you took matters as they were and made no enquiries. You accepted the position on the chart and you did not calculate or enquire? - No, I had other work to attend to.

Page 352

The Commissioner: Whom do you suggest that he should enquire from?
Mr. Harbinson: From the First Officer.
The Commissioner: And what were his enquiries to be?
Mr. Harbinson: As to what time and in what locality they should expect ice.

15189. (The Commissioner.) Do you take charge of the bridge? - No. 15190. (Mr. Harbinson.) Who was in charge while you were on watch? - Mr. Lightoller, from 6 to 8. 15191. It would not be your duty to bring this matter to the notice of Mr. Lightoller as an officer or to mention the matter to him? - About ice? 15192. Yes, or about the bearings of your ship? - He could see the Marconigrams as well as I. 15193. At any rate you do not consider that course within the scope of your duties. About the lowering of this boat No. 5. did you see any of the collapsibles lowered? - I did not. 15194. And you did not know whether any of the three were lowered from the falls that lowered No. 5? - No. 15195. Did you think there were a sufficient number of trained seamen, I mean deckhands, on the boat deck to secure the expeditious launching of the lifeboats? - Quite. 15196. Did you see or have you read the report that was made from passengers on the "Titanic" who were rescued by the "Carpathia," on their arrival in America, to the effect that there were not enough trained seamen on the boat deck to secure the safe and expeditious launching of the boats? - I do not think they are in a position to judge. 15197. (The Commissioner.) That is not the question: the question is, Did you read that report? - I did not. 15198. (Mr. Harbinson.) Have you ever been in a shipwreck before? - Yes, some minor affair. 15199. Do you consider that the system of launching boats from davits so high above the water, as the davits necessarily must have been on a vessel of the size of the "Titanic," is a safe operation? - Apparently so; it was that night. 15200. But supposing the weather conditions had not been so favourable, would your answer be that it would not be? - I do not know; I would not make any suggestion. 15201. You will not make any suggestions? - No, I am not making any suggestions. 15202. Do you not think the system of lowering the boats to one of the lower decks and filling them either through the gangway doors or from the third deck would be less hazardous? - It is too long a job. 15203. And less calculated to inspire passengers with terror? - Oh, no, it is too long a job to lower them from there. 15204. To lower the boats empty and fill them from one of the lower decks? - Yes, provided they had to get on a ladder it is too long. 15205. Apart from the rope ladders, were there companion ladders for this boat, the "Titanic"? - Yes, one. 15206. Would it not have been possible to have lowered the boats half-filled and then filled them down the companion ladders? - No, not if there had been the slightest bit of swell. 15207. But under the conditions that actually took place it would have been possible? - Yes, but we did not know it was so calm until we got into the water. 15208. I suppose you knew that there was not a heavy swell on, did you not? - We did not; you could not tell from that ship. 15209. (The Commissioner.) How often is the course laid down on the chart in the chart room, do you know? - No. 15210. Perhaps I am not putting an intelligent question. You told me as I understood that this vessel was, in your opinion, several miles south of the customary course? - Yes, my Lord. 15211. Now I do not understand that. She made for some time on the Sunday a south-westerly course, did she not? - Yes, my Lord. 15212. And at a point on the Sunday, I think you said about 5 o'clock, her course was altered? - 5.50. 15213. And it became an almost due westerly course? - Yes, my Lord. 15214. In your opinion did she change her course sooner or later than she ordinarily would have done. She changed it, you know, at 5.50? - That was later. 15215. Then, in your opinion, had she gone in a south-westerly direction longer than she ordinarily would have gone? - I thought she had gone for three-quarters of an hour longer on that course than she should have done. 15216. That would take her several miles to the southward of the ordinary track, would it not? - Yes. 15217. And in that connection would take her away from the ice-field? - Yes, my Lord. 15218. Or from the proximity of these bergs? - Yes. 15218a. But that apparently does not fit in with the position of the "Titanic" at the time that she sank as reported by her. Mr. Laing: I think it does. My friends and I have worked this out very carefully. The evidence is not complete about it, of course, yet, but I think it takes her just to the place. Will your Lordship look at my marked chart? It is marked in red. The Commissioner: If you will hand it up. (The same was handed to the Commissioner.) But whenever they altered their course, at the time of the accident this vessel was practically on her regular course. Mr. Laing: No she was some seven or eight miles to the south. The Commissioner: Is it your suggestion that that was done purposely. Mr. Laing: As far as we can see, my Lord, we think it was. The Commissioner: It was done for the purpose of avoiding the ice. Mr. Laing: That is our idea, as far as we can judge. Of course, we have not got the Commander here. 15219. (The Commissioner.) Have you followed what I was saying, Mr. Pitman? - Yes, my Lord. 15220. Can you help us at all? - No. 15221. You see, what I want to know is this, whether there was any deviation by the "Titanic" after the receipt of these advices about ice, made for the purpose of putting the ship to the southward of the points where the bergs might be expected to be? - Captain Smith did not mention it at all. 15222. And you cannot give me any information from what you saw in the chart room? - No, my Lord. Captain Smith gives the orders to alter the course at the time he thinks fit. The Commissioner: Where do you get your red lines from, Mr. Laing? Mr. Laing: We have had to work it out from a witness who has not yet been called. 15223. (The Commissioner.) Oh, very well. (To the Witness.) How often when you are on watch do you mark the position of the ship on the chart? - Only at noon. 15224. Do not you mark it again? - No, not when we are well at sea. 15225. You do not mark it when you go off watch for the purpose of letting the man who succeeds you see at once on the chart where the ship is? - No, only when we are making the land. 15226. Do you do it when you get a stellar observation? - No, my Lord, unless we are making the land. The Commissioner: Yes, I understand that.

Page 353

Examined by Mr. HOLMES.

15227. Can you tell us whether the "Titanic's" head was going round at all under her helm when you left the ship, or after the collision? - She remained stationary from the time I left the ship till she disappeared. 15228. No altering her heading? - No. 15229. At the time your boat was lowered was she very much down by the head? - It was noticeable. 15230. Would it make very much difference in the amount of drop that you had to the water? - Slightly, yes. 15231. Not very much? - No. 15232. And you lowered your boat without any difficulty? - Oh, yes. 15233. Can you, therefore, say whether at the time the ship had much of a list on? - None whatever. 15234. None at all when you were launched? - No. 15235. Did you watch the list change after you were in the water? - She had no list when I left the ship. 15236. But afterwards, before she went down, did the list increase? - I could not see that she had a list at all at any time. 15237. (The Commissioner.) He said she had no list at the time his boat was lowered into the water. (To the Witness.) Did you see a list to starboard, ever? - I saw no list at all, my Lord. 15238. Do you mean to say that before the ship went down you did not notice a list? - No. 15239. You only noticed her down by the head? - That is all. 15240. (Mr. Holmes.) Did you hear anything in the nature of explosions before she went down? - Yes, I heard four reports. 15241. What do you estimate they were? - Boilers leaving the bedplates and crashing through the bulkheads. 15242. When the ship actually went down, did you experience any suction in your boat? - Oh, none at all. 15243. Although you had no lamp in your boat, did you see other of the ship's boats in the water with lamps in them? - Several. 15244. Was the boat into which you transferred some of your passengers one that had a lamp in it? - I cannot recollect. 15245. Did you tie up your boat eventually to that boat in order to keep together during the night? - Yes, we did for some time. 15246. And did you arrive at the "Carpathia" in that way? - No. 15247. You cast loose again before that? - Yes, they cast off some time before the "Carpathia" came in sight.

Examined by Mr. COTTER.

15248. Have you been in any other White Star boat? - Yes, I have been in five of them. 15249. Were you in the "Olympic"? - No. 15250. Have you been in a White Star ship with these iron gangway doors? - I really forget - the "Oceanic" may have them. I forget. 15251. Yes, she has them. Is it not part of the duty of an officer to take charge of these gangway doors on the arrival of a ship in port? - Yes, we go and attend to them. 15252. Have you ever carried out that duty? - Yes, I have been there. 15253. Can you give us any idea of the size and weight of the forward iron doors on the "Titanic"? - No, I cannot give you any size or weight. Probably the builders can. 15254. Will you tell us how many men it would take to open one of those doors? - Four. 15255. Four men? - Yes. 15256. And are not they very awkward to close again once they are opened - once when they are pushed back against the ship's side? - No. 15257. What is the method of closing them again? - Simply attach a rope to them and pull and they come up themselves. 15258. I suggest to you if you put a rope against an iron door flush against the ship's side, it would be very awkward to pull round unless you had some leverage to fetch it away from the ship's side. Is not that the fact? - Of course if the thing had not been opened for years, yes. 15259. Did you hear Mr. Lightoller's evidence yesterday? - Yes. I heard part of it. 15260. He states he sent the boatswain down to open these doors. Now I am suggesting if those doors were opened and he found out he had made a mistake, he would have a hard job to get them closed again; is not that a fact? - No, they could be closed easily enough. 15261. Did you ever see them opened? - Yes, the carpenter usually does that with about two hands. 15262. And he could close them with two hands? - Yes. 15263. How many people do you say you took away in your boat? - Between 40 and 50. 15264. How many would the boat hold? - I do not know - 60, I think, according to the Board of Trade Regulations, or something like that. 15265. Were there people on the deck when you left the ship? - Oh, yes, there were a few there. 15266. Why did not you take in 60 then? - Simply because the people did not want to go - they thought they were safer on the ship. 15267. We have heard it stated by Mr. Lightoller that he lowered the boats because he thought there were enough people in them to lower with safety. Will you tell us what you consider is the weakest part of the tackle for lowering a boat? Is it the block or the falls or the shackles or what. We want to find out, because Mr. Lightoller said he was afraid of something giving way? - I do not know. The Commissioner: I do not know that he said he thought the tackle might give way, but he thought the boat might break. Mr. Cotter: Yes, the boat might break; the boat might buckle. The Commissioner: Yes. 15268. (Mr. Cotter.) Is that your idea, that the boat might buckle or the shackles might give way? - I do not know whether they would or not. 15269. Do you think it would be safe to lower 60 people in one of those boats from a height of 70 feet? - I do not know what I might do if I was placed in that position. 15270. I say now supposing you had to go through the operation again do you think it would be safe to put 70 people in or 68 people? - I would do now, yes, because I have found out since you could lower 80 in them. 15271. When you were in the "Oceanic" did you ever see bulkhead door drill take place? - I did not witness it, no. 15272. Is it not the duty of the officer, either the Chief Officer or First Officer, to go round at 11 o'clock each day and see the bulkhead doors closed? - The Commander does, yes. 15273. Was it done on the "Titanic"? - That I cannot say. 15274. You do not know. Do you know where the hand bulkhead doors are situated there? - Yes, I know where some of them are. 15275. Did you see any closed that night? - I did not go below that night. 15276. You said you took two men off in the boat. Do you know who they were? - I took two men? 15277. Yes? - What do you mean, members of the crew? The Commissioner: Six men passengers. 15278. (Mr. Cotter - To the Witness.) Six men passengers you took. Who was in the boat with you? Do you know any of the crew that were in the boat with you? - Yes, a steward by the name of Guy was one. 15279. Were the rest seamen or firemen? - One seaman, one fireman and two stewards. The Commissioner: Do you want to ask anything, Mr. Laing? Mr. Laing: Yes, my Lord, one or two questions.

Page 354

Examined by Mr. LAING.

15280. Was it any part of your duty to attend to the navigation of the ship, or does the Commander do that - the setting of the courses, and so on? - The Commander always sets the courses. 15281. And as junior officer have you got specified duties in the chart room? - Yes. 15282. To work up observations, and so on? - Yes. 15283. And make rounds, I think, later on in the watch? - Yes. 15284. You have nothing to do with setting the course, or anything of that sort? - The Commander is the only man who does that. 15285. A question was asked you about bulkhead doors. Whose duty is that - is it the stewards or the deck, to look after the doors? - The stewards; the bulkheads come into their department. 15286. Does the Commander make rounds every day? - Yes, weather permitting. 15287. At Belfast did you yourself, with Mr. Boxhall, go round the boats with a view of taking an inventory of their equipment? - Yes, the starboard side. 15288. You took the starboard side, or was it the port side? - No, port side, that is right. 15289. Did you go through the whole of the equipment of each of these boats? - Yes. 15290. Did you find all the regulation equipment there? - Not all in the boats, but it was on board the ship. 15291. That is what I want. Did you find, for example, on board the ship everything that the boats ought to have? - Everything. 15292. Although they may not have been exactly in the boat at the moment? - I found everything that was required. 15293. Do you know where they keep the lamps in these boats? - In the lamp room. 15294. Do you know where they keep the compasses? - Yes, in a locker on the afterpart of the boat deck. 15295. Are the boat axes, and those things, kept in the locker too, or in the boat? - They are usually kept in the lamp room. 15296. Did you go through the lifebelts and check them? - I did. 15297. How many were there? - I think about 3,600. The Commissioner: I have not heard it suggested that there were not sufficient lifebelts. 15298. (Mr. Laing.) I thought it was, my Lord. I thought I had better get it. The Witness: I checked them all. 15299. Can you tell us if your clock is put back at noon? - No, the clocks are always put forward or back as the case may be at midnight. 15300. Not at noon at all? - No. 15301. The Englehardt boats which were called the collapsibles here, are they fitted with rudders or with a steering oar? - Steering oar. 15302. Did you find all their equipment? - All intact, yes.

Re-examined by Mr. BUTLER ASPINALL.

15303. I ought to have asked you this before. Would a fall in the temperature indicate the proximity of icebergs to you? - No. 15304. It does not fit with your experience? - No.

(The Witness withdrew.)

JOSEPH GROVES BOXHALL, Sworn.

Examined by Mr. RAYMOND ASQUITH.

15305. Were you the Fourth Officer of the "Titanic" at the time of this accident? - I was. 15306. What certificate do you hold? - Extra master. 15307. You have held that, I think, for about 4 or 5 years? - September, 1907. 15308. Have you been employed for five years by the White Star Company? - Five years next November. 15309. And has most of your experience been in the Atlantic? - Most of it, yes. 15310. On Sunday the 14th April, were you on watch from 4 to 6 in the evening? - I was. 15311. Who else was on the bridge at that time? - Mr. Wilde, the Chief Officer, and Mr. Moody, the Sixth Officer. 15312. Can you say what the course of the ship was when you came on watch at 4 o'clock? - No; I have forgotten the course. 15313. The course would be marked, I suppose, on a course board? - Oh, yes, the course was there. 15314. You cannot say what it was? - No, I cannot remember. 15315. Between 4 and 6, while you were on watch do you remember the course being altered? - The course was altered at 5.50. 15316. Do you remember what it was altered to? - I do not remember the compass course, but I remember the true course was S. 86 W. 15317. I think you worked that out yourself? - Yes, I had stellar observations afterwards. 15318. At the time when you came on watch at 4 o'clock had you heard anything about ice being in the neighbourhood? - Yes, I had seen reports of ice and put them on the chart. 15319. Reports which had been received earlier on the same day, do you mean? - No, I cannot say from my own recollection that they were received on Sunday, but subsequently I have heard that some of them, or one of them that I put on the chart, was received on the Sunday, and that I put it on between 4 and 6. All the ice marked on the Captain's chart I put down myself. 15320. Do you remember what these messages indicated with regard to ice? - Yes, it indicated the region of the ice. 15321. Do you remember what region it indicated; did it convey to your mind that you at 4 o'clock were somewhere in the neighbourhood of ice or not? - It conveyed to my mind that the ship would shortly be in the region of the ice. 15322. Did you make up your mind about what time that would happen? - No, I did not. 15323. Was the position of the ice marked upon the chart when you came up at 4 o'clock, I mean the position in which it might be expected? - Some of the positions were on the chart that I had put on previously. 15324. (The Commissioner.) But I do not know when it was that you marked the chart? - I do not remember myself, my Lord. 15325. But it was on the Sunday? - Well, subsequently I have heard it was on the Sunday, between 4 and 6, that I put some of the positions on. The Solicitor-General: I fancy Mr. Boxhall has not been very well. I know your Lordship will allow him to sit down. 15326. (The Commissioner.) Certainly, sit down, if you wish? - I am quite right, my Lord, thank you. 15327. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) You cannot recollect when it was you marked the position of the ice on the chart? - No. Some of the positions were from the "La Touraine." Well, that must have been a couple of days previously, I think. 15328. (The Commissioner.) And had they reference to ice? - Yes, ice and derelicts.

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15329. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) I understand your recollection is that during the period between 4 and 6 you did not make any additional mark on the chart? - To my recollection, I did not, but others say that I did. 15330. Do you remember whether, when you went off watch at 6 you noticed any marks on the chart with regard to ice which you had not noticed before? - No, I cannot say I noticed any. 15331. Then you went off watch at 6 o'clock, and came on again, I think, at 8 o'clock the same evening? - Yes. 15332. When you came up at 8 o'clock, was Mr. Lightoller on the bridge in charge? - Mr. Lightoller was there. 15333. Did you look at the chart then. Do you remember whether there was anything new about the ice marked on the chart at 8 o'clock? - I did not look at the chart when I came on at 8 o'clock. 15334. Your watch was from 8 to 12, was it not? - Yes. 15335. Do you remember during that period whether any messages were received with regard to ice, upon the bridge? - No, I do not recollect any. 15336. You have no recollection of a message from the "Californian" or the "Antillian" being brought to the bridge? - No. 15337. Were you on the bridge, looking out, most of that time, or were you somewhere else making calculations? - I was inside the chart room working up stellar observations from 8 o'clock. 15338. We have heard it was a fine, clear cold night. Is that your recollection? - Yes, it was perfectly clear. 15339. Did you see anything in the nature of haze? - No, none whatever. 15340. Neither at 8 o'clock nor at any time during the night? - Whenever I was on the deck or at the compass I never saw any haze whatever. 15341. And did you think, when you came up at 8 that the ship was nearing the neighbourhood of ice? - It did not enter my mind. 15342. Was the first intimation that there was ice about the striking of the three bells, so far as you were concerned? - No, when we struck the berg; that was the first. 15343. Do you mean you felt the shock before you heard the bells? - No, I heard the bells first. 15344. Where were you at that time? - Just coming out of the officers quarters. 15345. How soon after you heard the bells did you feel the shock? - Only a moment or two after that. 15346. Did you hear an order given by the First Officer? - I heard the First Officer give the order, "Hard-a-starboard," and I heard the engine room telegraph bells ringing. 15347. Was that before you felt the shock, or afterwards? - Just a moment before. 15348. (The Commissioner.) Let us be clear about that. The order, "Hard-a-starboard," came between the sound of the bells and the collision? - The impact, yes. 15349. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Did you go on to the bridge immediately after the impact? - I was almost on the bridge when she struck. 15350. Did you notice what the telegraphs indicated with regard to the engines? - "Full speed astern," both. 15351. Was that immediately after the impact? - Yes. 15352. Did you see anything done with regard to the watertight doors? - I saw Mr. Murdoch closing them then, pulling the lever. 15353. And did the Captain then come out on to the bridge? - The Captain was alongside of me when I turned round. 15354. Did you hear him say something to the First Officer? - Yes, he asked him what we had struck. 15355. What conversation took place between them? - The First Officer said, "An iceberg, Sir. I hard-a-starboarded and reversed the engines, and I was going to hard-a-port round it but she was too close. I could not do any more. I have closed the watertight doors." The Commander asked him if he had rung the warning bell, and he said "Yes." 15356. Did the Captain and the First Officer go to the starboard side of the bridge to see if they could see the iceberg? - Yes. 15357. Did you see it yourself? - I was not too sure of seeing it. I had just come out of the light, and my eyes were not accustomed to the darkness. 15358. What did you do next - did you leave the deck? - Yes, I went down forward, down into the third class accommodation, right forward on to the lowest deck of all with passenger accommodation, and walked along these looking for damage. 15359. That would be F deck, would it not? - Yes, F deck. I walked along there for a little distance just about where I thought she had struck. 15360. Did you find any signs of damage? - No, I did not. The Commissioner: What deck is it? Mr. Raymond Asquith: F deck, he says. 15361. (The Commissioner.) You say it is F deck? The Witness: I am not quite sure, my Lord, but it was the lowest deck I could get to without going into the cargo space. Mr. Raymond Asquith: The lowest deck on which there is passenger accommodation, he said. The Commissioner: Is not that G? Mr. Raymond Asquith: Yes, my Lord, I think it must be G. The Commissioner: It is pointed out that he could not get along G deck, because there is no door in the bulkhead, and therefore it cannot have been G deck. 15362. (Mr. Raymond Asquith - To the Witness.) How did you get down to the lowest of these decks which you went to? - Through a staircase under the port side of the forecastle head which takes me down into D deck, and then walked along aft along D deck to just underneath the bridge, and down the staircase there on the port side, and then I am down on E deck near E deck doors, the working alleyway; and then you cross over to the starboard side of E deck and go down another accommodation staircase on to F deck. I am not sure whether I went lower. Anyhow, I went as low as I could possibly get. 15363. (The Commissioner - To the Witness.) Just come round here? - Yes, my Lord. (The Witness explained plan to the Commissioner.) The Commissioner: He appears to have got to F deck. His first statement was right. 15364. (Mr. Raymond Asquith - To the Witness.) Did you then go up again through the other decks as far as C deck? - I came up the same way as I went down. 15365. Without noticing any damage? - I did not see any damage whatever. 15366. When you got to C deck did you see some ice there on the deck? - Yes, I took a piece of ice out of a man's hand, a small piece about as large as a small basin, I suppose; very small, anyhow; about that size (Describing.) He was going down again to the passenger accommodation, and I took it from him and walked across the deck to see where he got it. I found just a little ice in the well deck covering a space of about three or four feet from the bulwarks right along the well deck, small stuff. 15367. Did you then go and report to the Captain? - I went on to the bridge and reported to the Captain and First Officer that I had seen no damage whatever. 15368. Did the Captain then tell you to find the carpenter? - Yes, I think we stayed on the bridge just for a moment or two, probably a couple of minutes, and then he told me to find the carpenter and tell him to sound the ship forward. 15369. Did you find the carpenter? - I met the carpenter. I think it would be on the ladder leading from the bridge down to A deck, and he wanted to know where the Captain was. I told him he was on the bridge. 15370. Did the carpenter tell you anything about there being water? - Yes, he did; he said the ship was making water fast, and he passed it on to the bridge.

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15371. What did you do? - I continued with the intention of finding out where the water was coming in, and I met one of the mail clerks, a man of the name of Smith. 15372. Did he say something? - He also asked for the Captain, and said the mail hold was filling. I told him where he could find the Captain and I went down to the mail-room. I went down the same way as I did when I visited the third class accommodation previously. I went down as far as E deck and went to the starboard alleyway on E deck and the watertight door stopped me getting through. 15373. The watertight door on E deck was closed? - Yes. Then I crossed over and went into the working alleyway and so into the mail-room. 15374. What did you find in the mail-room? - I went down in the mail-room and found the water was within a couple of feet of G deck, the deck I was standing on. 15375. The mail-room is between the Orlop deck and G deck? - Yes, that is the mail hold. 15376. Was the water rising or stationary? - It was rising rapidly up the ladder and I could hear it rushing in. 15377. Did you go back and report that to the Captain on the bridge? - I stayed there just for a minute or two and had a look. I saw mail-bags floating around on deck. I saw it was no use trying to get them out so I went back again to the bridge. I met the Second Steward, Mr. Dodd, on my way to the bridge - as a matter of fact in the saloon companion way - and he asked me about sending men down below for those mails. I said "You had better wait till I go to the bridge and find what we can do." I went to the bridge and reported to the Captain. 15378. We have been told that at some time you called the other officers; both Mr. Lightoller and Mr. Pitman said you called them? - I did. That was after I reported to the Captain about the mail-room. 15379. Could you form any opinion as to how long that was after the impact? - No, but as near as I could judge; I have tried to place the time for it, and the nearest I can get to it is approximately 20 minutes to half an hour. 15380. I think those are the times which are given by Mr. Pitman and Mr. Lightoller. After calling those officers did you go on to the bridge again? - Yes, I think I went towards the bridge, I am not sure whether it was then that I heard the order given to clear the boats or unlace the covers. I might have been on the bridge for a few minutes and then heard this order given. 15381. Had you a boat station of your own; did you know what it was? - I did not know what it was. 15382. We have been told it is customary for the Third and Fourth Officers to be assigned to the emergency boats? - Yes, it is for emergency purposes. 15383. The Third Officer was assigned to No. 1. Were you assigned to No. 2? - For emergency purposes I was assigned to No. 1 as a matter of fact, the starboard boat. 15384. When the order was given to clear the boats what did you do; did you go to any particular boat? - No, I went right along the line of boats and I saw the men starting, the watch on deck, our watch. 15385. Which side of the ship? - The port side, I went along the port side, and afterwards I was down the starboard side as well but for how long I cannot remember. I was unlacing covers on the port side myself and I saw a lot of men come along - the watch I presume. They started to screw some out on the afterpart of the port side; I was just going along there and seeing all the men were well established with their work, well under way with it, and I heard someone report a light, a light ahead. I went on the bridge and had a look to see what the light was. 15386. Someone reported a light ahead? - Yes; I do not know who reported it. There were quite a lot of men on the bridge at the time. 15387. Did you see the light? - Yes, I saw a light. 15388. What sort of light was it? - It was two masthead lights of a steamer. But before I saw this light I went to the chart room and worked out the ship's position. 15389. Is that the position we have been given already - 41 deg. 46 min. N., 50 deg. 14 min. W? - That is right, but after seeing the men continuing with their work I saw all the officers were out, and I went into the chart room to work out its position. 15390. Was it after that you saw this light? - It was after that, yes, because I must have been to the Marconi office with the position after I saw the light. 15391. You took it to the Marconi office in order that it might be sent by the wireless operator? - I submitted the position to the Captain first, and he told me to take it to the Marconi room. 15392. And then you saw this light which you say looked like a masthead light? - Yes, it was two masthead lights of a steamer. 15393. Could you see it distinctly with the naked eye? - No, I could see the light with the naked eye, but I could not define what it was, but by the aid of a pair of glasses I found it was the two masthead lights of a vessel, probably about half a point on the port bow, and in the position she would be showing her red if it were visible, but she was too far off then. 15394. Could you see how far off she was? - No, I could not see, but I had sent in the meantime for some rockets, and told the Captain I had sent for some rockets, and told him I would send them off, and told him when I saw this light. He said, "Yes, carry on with it." I was sending rockets off and watching this steamer. Between the time of sending the rockets off and watching the steamer approach us I was making myself generally useful round the port side of the deck. 15395. How many rockets did you send up about? - I could not say, between half a dozen and a dozen, I should say, as near as I could tell. 15396. What sort of rockets were they? - The socket distress signal. 15397. Can you describe what the effect of those rockets is in the sky; what do they do? - You see a luminous tail behind them and then they explode in the air and burst into stars. 15398. Did you send them up at intervals one at a time? - One at a time, yes. 15399. At about what kind of intervals? - Well, probably five minutes; I did not take any times. 15400. Did you watch the lights of this steamer while you were sending the rockets up? - Yes. 15401. Did they seem to be stationary? - I was paying most of my attention to this steamer then, and she was approaching us; and then I saw her sidelights. I saw her green light and the red. She was end-on to us. Later I saw her red light. This is all with the aid of a pair of glasses up to now. Afterwards I saw the ship's red light with my naked eye, and the two masthead lights. The only description of the ship that I could give is that she was, or I judged her to be, a four-masted steamer. 15402. Why did you judge that? - By the position of her masthead lights; they were close together. 15403. Did the ship make any sort of answer, as far as you could see, to your rockets? - I did not see it. Some people say she did, and others say she did not. There were a lot of men on the bridge. I had a Quartermaster with me, and the Captain was standing by, at different times, watching this steamer. 15404. Do you mean you heard someone say she was answering your signals? - Yes, I did, and then she got close enough, and I Morsed to her - used our Morse lamp. 15405. You began Morsing to her? - Yes. 15406. When people said to you that your signals were being answered, did they say how they were being answered? - I think I heard somebody say that she showed a light. 15407. Do you mean that she would be using a Morse lamp? - Quite probably.

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15408. Then you thought she was near enough to Morse her from the "Titanic"? - Yes, I do think so; I think so yet. 15409. (The Commissioner.) What distance did you suppose her to be away? - I judged her to be between 5 and 6 miles when I Morsed to her, and then she turned round - she was turning very, very slowly - until at last I only saw her stern light, and that was just before I went away in the boat. 15410. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Did she make any sort of answer to your Morse signals? - I did not see any answer whatever. 15411. Did anyone else, so far as you know, see an answer? - Some people say they saw lights, but I did not. 15412. Did they think they saw them Morsing in answer to your Morse signals; did anyone say that? - They did not say she Morsed, but they said she showed a light. Then I got the Quartermaster who was with me to call her up with our lamps, so that I could use the glasses to see if I could see signs of any answer; but I could not see any. 15413. You could not see any with the glasses? - No; and Captain Smith also looked, and he could not see any answer. 15414. He also looked at her through the glasses? - Yes. 15415. After a time you saw what you took to be the stern light of a ship? - It was the stern light of the ship. 15416. Did you infer from that that the ship was turned round, and was going in the opposite direction? - Yes. 15417. When you first saw her, I understand you to say she was approaching you? - She was approaching us, yes. 15418. For about how long did you signal before it seemed to you that she turned round? - I cannot say; I cannot judge any of the times at all. 15419. Do you know at all whether the "Titanic" was swinging at this time? - No, I do not see how it was possible for the "Titanic" to be swinging after the engines were stopped. I forget when it was I noticed the engines were stopped, but I did notice it; and there was absolutely nothing to cause the "Titanic" to swing. 15420. After sending up those signals for some time did you turn your attention to the boats? - I was sending the rockets up right to the very last minute when I was sent away in the boat. 15421. When you say right up to the last minute, can you give me any idea of what you mean by that? - Yes, right up to the time I was sent away in the boat. 15422. How long before the vessel sank were you sent away in the boat? - I cannot give the time, but I have approximated it nearly half an hour, as near as I could tell. 15423. What boat was it you were sent away in? - In the emergency boat No. 2. The Commissioner: It would be about a quarter to 2. 15424. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Yes, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Who was superintending the filling of that boat? - Mr. Wilde, or, I presume, Mr. Wilde was superintending the filling. The order was given to lower away when I was told to go in it and the boat was full; they had started the tackles when I got in. 15425. (The Commissioner.) What number was it? - Port No. 2. 15426. Did you notice what other boats there were on the port side at the time? - There was only one boat hanging there in the davits, No. 4. 15427. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) That was the boat next to yours? - Yes. 15428. Can you say how many people were in that boat No. 2? - I endeavoured to count them, but I did not succeed very well. I judge between 25 and 30 were in her. 15429. Were they mostly women, or were they mixed men and women? - The majority were women. I know there were 3 crew, 1 male passenger, and myself. 15430. And you think the rest were women? - They were. There were several children in the boat. We have had evidence about this boat from Johnson, the Steward, at page 91, and his evidence exactly corresponds with this. It is from Question 3468 to about Question 3478. He says he thinks there were 23 or 25 people in the boat, and he afterwards says, "There was one male passenger and I think four members of the crew." The Commissioner: This was an emergency boat. 15431. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Yes, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Did you notice when the people were being put in that boat No. 2 whether there were many passengers on deck at the time, round about? - I did not notice the passengers being put into the boat. I was not taking any notice of the boat at all, until I was sent to her. 15432. Did you notice whether there were passengers on the deck at the time the boat was lowered? - Yes, there were passengers round the deck, but I noticed as I was being lowered that they were filling No. 4 boat. 15433. Were there any women about? - I did not see any women. 15434. I do not know whether you can say with regard to the starboard boats at all whether there were any starboard boats on the "Titanic" at this time, or whether they had all gone? - No, I cannot say. I know the starboard emergency boat had gone some time, and that they were working on the collapsible boats when I went, because I fired the distress signals from the socket in the rail just close to the bows of the emergency boat on the starboard side. Every time I fired a signal I had to clear everybody away from the vicinity of this socket, and then I remember the last one or two distress signals I sent off the boat had gone, and they were then working on the collapsible boat which was on the deck. 15435. Had you any lamp in your boat No. 2? - Yes. 15436. Had you put that in yourself or did you find it there? - There is always a lamp in the emergency boats. 15437. Lamps are always kept there? - They are lighted every night at 6 o'clock. 15438. Do you mean they are not kept in the other boats usually? - They were not kept in the other boats, no. 15439. Did you see any put in the other boats? - Yes. 15440. Was that by your orders? - Well, it was through my speaking to the Chief Officer about it. I mentioned to him that there were no lamps. That was earlier on, when they started to clear the boats. I mentioned to him the fact that there were no lamps in any of the boats, or compasses, and he told me to get hold of the lamp trimmer. 15441. (The Commissioner.) When did you notice this? - Oh, shortly after the orders were given to clear the boats. 15442. You said "in any of the boats." Did you examine all the boats? - Did I examine the boats after the accident? 15443. Yes? - No, I did not. 15444. Then you cannot speak from your knowledge? - I examined the boats on purpose. The lamps were in the lamp-room then. 15445. The lamps are in the lamp-room; the compasses are apparently kept in some locker; that is right, is it? - Yes. 15446. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Did you have the lamps taken up? - Yes. The Chief Officer told me to find the lamp trimmer. I did find him after a little trouble. I really forget where I found him. He was on the boat deck working amongst the men. I told him to take a couple of men down with him and fetch the lamps, and he was afterwards seen to bring the lamps along the deck and put them in the boats. 15447. Do you know how many lamps were put into how many boats? - No, I do not know. 15448. In your boat did you also put in some green lights? - Yes, there were some green lights lying in the wheelhouse. I told the Quartermaster or someone who was around there to put them in the boat. 15449. Was any order given to you when you were lowered with regard to what you should do

Page 358

when you got into the water? - No, I do not remember any.

15450. What did you do when you got into the water? - I pulled a little way from the ship, probably 100 feet away from the ship, and remained there for a while. 15451. How long did you remain there; did you remain there until the ship sank? - Oh, no, I did not. I did not remain there very long. I got the crew squared up and the oars out properly and the boat squared when I heard somebody singing out from the ship, I do not know who it was, with a megaphone, for some of the boats to come back again, and to the best of my recollection they said "Come round the starboard side," so I pulled round the starboard side to the stern and had a little difficulty in getting round there. 15452. Why was that, because you had not enough people to row? - I had not enough people; my boat was rather deep. I had only one man who seemed to understand boat orders. I was pulling the stroke oar and trying to steer the boat at the same time myself. 15453. There was only one seaman in your boat? - That is all. 15454. Do you know whether there was a man named Osman? - Yes, Osman or Osram, or something like that. [Frank Osman.] 15455. Who else rowed besides you and the seaman? You were rowing and steering at the same time? - Everybody was rowing with the exception of a male passenger. He did not seem to do much. 15456. You have told us there were two stewards or a steward and a sculleryman. They were both rowing? - Oh, yes, they were rowing. 15457. With some difficulty you rowed round to the starboard side of the ship? - Yes, round the stern. 15458. What did you do when you got round to the starboard side? - Well, I stayed round on the starboard side, probably about 200 feet away from the ship. I found there was a little suction and I decided that it was very unwise to have gone back to the ship so I pulled away. 15459. A little suction? - Yes, there was a little suction. 15460. Why was there suction at this time? - The ship settling down badly, I suppose. 15461. Was it settling down rapidly. Could you see it settling down at this time? - Yes, I could see her settling down; I was watching the lines of lights. 15462. (The Commissioner.) She was settling down by the head? - She was settling down by the head, my Lord. 15463. Where were you at this time? - Just a little, probably 200 feet, on the starboard beam of the ship, or probably a little abaft the starboard beam of the ship. 15464. Would there be any suction there? - Well, I felt it; I saw it by the work we had pulling it round the ship's stern; seeing she was only a small boat, I judged there was quite a lot of suction. 15465. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Did you remain in that position, about 200 feet away from the ship, until she sank? - No, I did not; I turned the boat away and pulled in a north-easterly direction. 15466. You mean, you pulled further away from the ship? - Yes. 15467. How far were you from the ship when she did sink? - Approximately, half-a-mile. 15468. That means that you could not see what happened? - No, I could not. 15469. After she sank, did you hear cries? - Yes, I heard cries. I did not know when the lights went out that the ship had sunk. I saw the lights go out, but I did not know whether she had sunk or not, and then I heard the cries. I was showing green lights in the boat then, to try and get the other boats together, trying to keep us all together. 15470. Were there other boats round about near yours? - I could not see any boats, not when I had got so far away as that. Some of them had gone in a more northerly direction than I had gone. 15471. Did you go back at all towards the ship, when you heard those cries? - No, I did not. 15472. Was any suggestion made of going back? - There was a suggestion made. I spoke about going back to the sailor-man that was in the boat - that was whilst I was pulling round the stern - about going back to the ship, and then I decided that it was very unwise to have attempted it. So we pulled away, and then we did not pull back at all. 15473. (The Commissioner.) What did you intend to go back to the ship for? - I intended to go back to try and obey orders that I heard given through the megaphone. 15474. Was that to stand by the gangway door or what? - I do not know whether it was to stand by the gangway door; I do not remember any gangway doors being open. 15475. What were the orders? - Just simply to come round to the starboard side. 15476. Why was it dangerous to try to do that; was it the suction? - The suction and the chance of the boat, by not being properly manned, being rushed and losing everybody in the boat. I did not think it was possible to get any more than three people in the boat. 15477. Three more people? - Yes, I thought I could get about three more in, and that is all. I gave the men orders I intended to put the boat bow-on to the ship, and I gave orders to back water as soon as I told them. 15478. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) So you did not go back? - No. 15479. Did not you see anyone in the water at all? - No, there was no one in the water at all. 15480. Did you see people in the water later? - No, I did not see anyone in the water at all. 15481. You never picked anyone up? - No, I did not. 15482. Did you meet with any of the other boats later on? - I did not see any boat near us, although I was showing these green lights occasionally, with the intention of getting all the boats together. There was not a boat anywhere near us. I did not see any. I was the first boat picked up on board the "Carpathia." 15483. You were the first picked up? - Yes; he saw our green lights and steamed down for them. 15484. Did you watch all the other boats being picked up after you got on board the "Carpathia"? - I was down in the other boats. I suppose a good half an hour had elapsed before any of the other boats were there. 15485. Can you tell us how many boats were picked up by the "Carpathia"? - No, I did not count them. They counted them, but all our boats were picked up with the exception of the one collapsible boat, where the crew were taken out of her in a sinking condition. 15486. One collapsible boat and two lifeboats, did you say? - Yes. 15487. When I say picked up I do not mean taken on board. We know 13 were taken on board, but I mean how many were accounted for? - I really forget now how many were accounted for. I remember we turned some of them adrift. 15488. Did you see any ice when the day broke? - Yes, I saw quite a lot of ice at daybreak. 15489. Large bergs, did you see? - The first ice I saw, I saw it probably about half a mile on the port bow of the "Carpathia" just as I was approaching it, when I got about two ships' lengths away from her. Day was breaking then.

Page 359

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

15490. I think after the disaster it was you who worked out the calculation as to the position of the "Titanic"? - That is so. 15491. I understand that there is some dispute about the position, but had the position you worked out been checked in any way by any other officer? - Oh, no. 15492. You reckoned the position and you brought it to the notice of the captain? - Yes. 15493. He asked you to go down to the wireless operators' room and give it to him? - Yes. 15494. It was that statement of the position that went out from the wireless to give intimation of the collision? - Yes. 15495. And you say the position was accurate? - Yes, I am quite certain of that. I am quite confident the position was quite correct. 15496. After the collision I understand that you and some other officers went on the bridge to look at the iceberg. Is that so? - That is so. Yes. 15497. And you saw the iceberg? - Well, I was not quite sure of seeing it. 15498. What length of time was this after the collision? - Only a couple of minutes afterwards. 15499. What distance from you did the iceberg appear to be then? - I do not think it would be a couple of minutes afterwards. It appeared to me, what I fancy I saw, about a ship's length away from the ship's bridge. 15500. Now, you were examined in America in regard to the appearance which the iceberg presented at that distance? - Yes. 15501. Would you give your impression of it to my Lord? - Yes, I said I fancied I saw a black mass, a low-lying black mass on the quarter. 15502. Was it difficult to discern what the object was even at that short distance, a ship's length? - That is only an approximate distance you understand; it might have been more. 15503. It might have been three ship's lengths? - It might have been three ship's lengths. 15504. Would that be the outside - three ship's lengths? - No, I am not sure. You must understand I had just come out of the light into the darkness and my eyes were not accustomed to it. 15505. I also recollect that we have been told in the evidence that after the collision you went astern? - The engines were going full speed astern for quite a little time. 15506. Did you go forward after that? - Not that I know of. 15507. So that from the place where the collision occurred you had not moved much up to the time you went on the bridge to look for this iceberg? - No, I do not think the ship could have gone so very far. 15508. So that you were within a few ships' lengths of her probably? - Yes. 15509. Is it your evidence that even at that distance it was very difficult to make out that this was an iceberg - to make out what it was? - To make out what it was, yes. 15510. Was that on account of the weather conditions or the condition of the atmosphere? - I think it was due to the conditions that were then prevailing at the time, a calm oily sea. The Commissioner: It appears to me to be more due to the fact that he had come out of the light room. 15511. (Mr. Scanlan.) Yes, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Besides you who else were on the bridge? - Mr. Murdoch and Captain Smith. 15512. They had not been in the lighted chart room up to that time? - Not that I know of. Mr. Murdoch and Captain Smith were on the bridge as far as I know when I went there. 15513. Was Mr. Murdoch standing with you while you were observing the iceberg? - Yes, he pointed at it - like that. 15514. How long were you watching it? - That I cannot say. It was not very long because I went down below into the passengers' accommodation. 15515. A couple of minutes? - I am not going to stick to minutes; I do not know what it was. From the impression you got as to the difficulty of seeing objects that night, did it occur to you - The Commissioner: You must not put it in that way; the difficulty was a personal one, it was not due to the night; it was because his eyes were not accustomed to the darkness, coming from the light. 15516. (Mr. Scanlan - To the Witness.) Before you took your eyes off this iceberg had you been there a sufficient length of time to accustom your eyes to the difference in light from the chart room to the bridge? - No, I do not say so; I do not think so. 15517. You have had experience of ships with searchlights, I understand? - Yes; I have been on board of ships with them, but, as a matter of fact, I have not seen them used. 15518. (The Commissioner.) Is that the only experience you have had with them, that you have been on board with them, but never seen them used? - That is all, my Lord. 15519. That does not seem to me to be very valuable? - It does not. 15520. (Mr. Scanlan.) You have been in the Navy for some time? - Yes. 15521. Were you an officer? - Yes. 15522. Do all of those ships carry searchlights? - Yes, to the best of my recollection most of them do, or all of them that I have noticed. 15523. Are they used at night for the purpose of discovering any object ahead of you? - I do not know; I have never seen them used. I have never been on board when they have been used. 15524. Have you formed any opinion as to whether or not a searchlight, if you had had one, on this Sunday night of the disaster, would have helped to discover the iceberg sooner? - No, I have not formed that opinion at all; I have not formed any opinion about it. 15525. Were you asked about this in America before the American Court, and did you say on that occasion that searchlight might have called attention sooner to the iceberg, I mean as an opinion. Did you express that as an opinion to Senator Smith? - I do not know whether I did or not. The Commissioner: You need not go into that with this witness. Mr. Scanlan: This was on the special question before your Lordship as to the use of searchlights. The Commissioner: I know. I do not mean to say it is not a proper subject for Enquiry, but the evidence of a man who has so little experience of searchlights as this gentleman appears to have is to my mind of little value. 15526. (Mr. Scanlan - To the Witness.) I understood you to state to my friend that all the ice that was marked on the Captain's chart had been put down by you? - That is so - yes. 15527. On the Sunday, was that the state of the chart on the Sunday night? - Yes, as far as I know. 15528. Your watches were in the morning from 8 till noon and again from 4 till 6 and then from 8 o'clock until the time of the disaster? - Yes. 15529. When you were asked if you had marked down ice on the Sunday, I understood you to say - I may be wrong - that you were not speaking from your own recollection, but from what other people had told you since the accident. Is that so? - Yes, that is so. I distinctly remember putting down some positions from the "La Touraine," but that must have been a couple of days previously, to the best of my recollection. 15530. You do not recollect having put down any positions for ice on the Captain's chart on the Sunday? - I do not remember that. You were asked at the American Enquiry [April 22nd, page 223] with regard to this: - "(Senator Smith.) Did you know you were in the vicinity of icebergs that night? - (Mr. Boxhall.) I did not know we were in the vicinity of icebergs. (Senator Smith.) Did not the Second or First Officer apprise you of the fact that they had information that they were in the vicinity of icebergs? (Mr. Boxhall.) I knew we had had information. They did not apprise me that evening of it. (Senator Smith.) When did they apprise you? (Mr. Boxhall.) As a matter of fact they did not mention it to me. (Senator Smith.) Has it never been mentioned to

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you? - (Mr. Boxhall.) Oh, yes, the Captain mentioned it. (Senator Smith.) The Captain mentioned it to you? (Mr. Boxhall.) Yes. (Senator Smith.) When? (Mr. Boxhall.) I do not know whether it was the day before or two days before. He gave me some positions of icebergs, which I put on the chart. (Senator Smith.) Which you put on the chart? (Mr. Boxhall.) On his chart. (Senator Smith.) Did the Captain tell you that the 'Californian' had wired the "Titanic" that they were in the vicinity of icebergs? (Mr. Boxhall.) No. The Captain gave me some wireless messages from Southampton, I think that we had had before we had sailed, and asked me to put these positions on the chart. (Senator Smith.) Did you know whether a wireless had been received from the 'Amerika' that the 'Titanic' was in the vicinity of icebergs?"
The Commissioner: From the "Amerika"?
Mr. Scanlan: Yes, my Lord. I think the information is that it was sent from the "Amerika."
The Solicitor-General: I am putting it together; I am going into that question.

15531. (Mr. Scanlan.) "(Mr. Boxhall.) No, I could not say. (Senator Smith.) Do you want us to understand that you had no knowledge of the proximity of this ship to icebergs immediately preceding the - (Mr. Boxhall.) I had no knowledge. (Senator Smith.) One moment (continuing). Immediately preceding the collision, or during the hours of your watch from eight o'clock until the collision occurred. (Mr. Boxhall.) I did not realise the ship was so near the ice-field." When you refer to the ice-field, you just mean the general ice-field marked down on all charts? - No, the region covering these wireless messages. 15532. Now about the region; you were examined twice before the American Commission. I have been quoting your evidence from the evidence you gave on the 22nd of April. Then you were examined a week later on this same point. I suppose this is a correct note of your evidence? - I suppose so. It should be. 15533. I mean you have heard what I have read? - Yes; to the best of my recollection it is quite correct. 15534. A week later, on the 29th April, you were examined by Senator Burton. He said [29th April, p. 930]: "I understand you have testified before the full Committee about the radiograms relating to ice? (Mr. Boxhall.) Yes, Sir. I have stated upstairs, or in Senator Smith's presence, this afternoon that I did not hear of any ice reports the day of the accident. (Senator Burton.) None were reported to you? (Mr. Boxhall.) I did not hear any. There were none reported to me. I do not think any were reported during my watch on deck, or I should have heard it. (Senator Burton.) When was your watch on deck? (Mr. Boxhall.) I was on deck on Sunday morning from eight o'clock until noon, and I was on again from four o'clock until six, and then I was on again from eight until the time of the accident. (Senator Burton.) You made an entry on the chart as to ice of which you had received information, did you not? (Mr. Boxhall.) Yes. (Senator Burton.) When was that? (Mr. Boxhall.) I cannot get the day, but it was probably a couple of days before, when we had a radiogram from the Captain of 'La Touraine,' giving his position at 7 o'clock Greenwich time, and I worked out our position at 7 o'clock Greenwich time, and wrote out the time for Captain Smith." So you made it quite clear to the American Commission that no ice had been reported to you on the Sunday, and that you had marked no ice positions on the chart that day? - Yes, but now I wish to add this that since that American Inquiry I have had some one read to me the wireless message sent. I remember we had one from the "Caronia," and since then that message has been read over to me which I recognise and I know now that the message was sent on Sunday morning. 15535. You are satisfied you received a message on Sunday morning. Did you receive any message on Sunday later? - No. Not that I know of. 15536. I daresay you would remember if you had? - Well, the messages do not come to me first, but I think if there had been any wireless messages come during my watch on deck I should have seen or heard something of them. 15537. If any message had come from 8 to 12 you would have heard of it? - Yes, I think so; that is the usual thing. 15538. Would it be in the ordinary course of the working of the "Titanic" that if a message were received, say, at 7.30 giving the latitude and longitude in which ice was - of a ship reporting ice, its position would be marked down in the chart? - Yes, I think so; that is the usual thing. 15539. At all events, from 8 to 12 you were engaged practically constantly all the time in the chart room? - Yes. 15540. And you were the officer who would have to work out the position? - Well, the Sixth Officer might have worked out that position, but the Captain generally gave the messages to me to put in the positions he had to put on the charts. He seemed to give them to me when I was on deck. 15541. Can you tell me if the Sixth Officer or any other officer put any ice position on the Captain's chart from 8 to 12? - Not that I know of. 15542. And you certainly did not yourself? - No, I did do them from 8 to 12. 15543. Was there any indication to you on the chart that any ice positions had been marked in the intermediate watch, that is from 6 to 8? - I do not remember. 15544. It is a thing that would have struck you, is it not, if it had been marked there? - I do not remember even looking at the chart at 8 o'clock. 15545. Did you have occasion to look at the chart at all from 8 o'clock to 12? - Well, as near as I can remember I went to the chart room with the Captain, but the Captain put down the star position when I gave it him, somewhere about 10 o'clock. He put the position on, and I was standing close to him, but I did not take that much notice whether any other positions were put on or not. 15546. Was that for the course? - That was our star position, putting down the ship's position at 7.30. But this was about 10 o'clock. 15547. (The Solicitor-General.) I cannot hear what you say happened at 10 o'clock? - The Captain plotted the star position of the ship at 7.30; he put that down on his chart at about 10 o'clock. 15548. (Mr. Scanlan.) Do you know what that position was? - No, I do not, but the position you have in the Court is worked from that position. 15549. The position in which the collision occurred was worked by you? - Yes. 15550. From the position indicated by the Captain at 10, I mean the Captain worked out his position at 10. At 10 o'clock he worked out the position he had been in at 7.30. Is that so? - No, he put down the ship's position at 7.30. 15551. (The Commissioner.) I understood that the Captain at 10 o'clock marked the chart with the position which the witness ascertained at 7.30. Is that right? - He put down the ships 7.30 position on his chart. 15552. At 10 o'clock? - Approximately 10 o'clock. 15553. I understand at 10 o'clock the Captain put down on the chart the position of the ship as you had ascertained it at 7.30? - Yes. 15554. Had you both latitude and longitude? - Yes, we had three stars for latitude, and I think three or four for longitude. 15555. (Mr. Scanlan.) Who was on watch from 8 to 12, till the collision happened. There was Mr. Murdoch, I know? - The junior officers were the Fourth and Sixth. Mr. Lightoller was on till 10 o'clock. 15556. From 10 till 11.40 who were on? - The Fourth and Sixth Officers and Mr. Murdoch. 15557. Mr. Lowe is one of those officers? - No; Mr. Moody, who is the Sixth Officer. 15558. Who is the Fourth? - I am the Fourth. 15559. Then you had some duty for watching from 8 till 11.40. It was part of your duty as well as making out calculations in the chart room to take the watch on the bridge. Is that so? - My duty was to do what I was told by the senior officer on the watch. 15560. Is it part of the duty you were told to do? - No, I was not told to do it.

Page 361

15561. Were you told to watch at all that night? - No, I was not. 15562. In point of fact, you were not on watch that night? - I was on watch. I was on duty, but I was not on the bridge. I was not on the look out, if that is what you mean. 15563. That is exactly what I want to know. At no time that night were you keeping the look-out on the bridge? - No. 15564. Who besides Mr. Murdoch was keeping the look-out on the bridge? - Nobody. Mr. Murdoch was keeping the look-out himself. 15565. And there were no extra look-outs? - Not that I know of. I did not hear of any.

Examined by Mr. ROCHE.

15566. Just tell me about a few matters, if you can. When you came from where you had been making those observations, you heard the order "Hard-a-starboard," and you felt the shock of the collision? - Yes; there was not much of a shock to feel. 15567. But you felt the collision? - Yes. 15568. And you knew the engines were reversed, full speed astern? - I heard the bells ring, but I did not know what the movement was until I got to the bridge. 15569. And then you knew that the collision bulkheads were closed because you heard the bell ring? - No, I did not hear the bell ring; I saw Mr. Murdoch pulling the lever. 15570. I thought you told my Lord that you heard the warning bell ring? - No. 15571. You heard the Captain ask? - I heard the Captain ask. 15572. Whether the warning bell had been rung? - Yes. 15573. You had already got that knowledge. Now you left the bridge to go down below to see what damage was done? - To see if I could find any damage. 15574. When you left do you know if the engines were still reversing or had they stopped? - I cannot say. 15575. Perhaps you can tell us in this way. Was steam blowing off then? - No, I cannot tell you that either. 15576. When you came back was steam blowing off? - Yes, it was when I came back. 15577. How long were you away, do you think? - I could not say. 15578. A quarter of an hour or 20 minutes? - Oh, no. 15579. Less? You can give us an idea - ten minutes? - I do not think I should be ten minutes. 15580. Something less than ten minutes; five minutes? - Somewhere between five and ten minutes. 15581. Now, having come back, then you were on the bridge obeying orders and letting off rockets? - I went down to the mail-room after that. 15582. Yes, you went down again? - Yes. 15583. How long before you went down to the mail-room again, 5 or 10 minutes? - Almost immediately. 15584. And then you came up again on to the bridge? - Yes. 15585. Not having been away very long, I suppose? - No, I had not been down in the mail-room very long. I spent a little more time there than when I went down the first time. 15586. And then you came up and reported to the Commander? - Yes. 15587. What did he say? - He walked away and left me. He went off the bridge, as far as I remember. 15588. He did not say anything to you that was fixed in your memory? - No. 15589. Now do you know if anything was done in regard to the collision bulkheads after that? - No, the last movement that I saw was the First Officer closing them. 15590. And you know nothing more about them after that? - Nothing further. 15591. Now I want to ask you one or two other matters. Certain orders were given with regard to getting up women and children, and so forth, between that time and the sinking of the vessel? - Yes. 15592. Did you know those orders were being given? - I cannot say that I heard them. I never heard an order for any boat to be lowered, or even for women to be put in. The only order I heard was clearing the boats, and then I was employed the greater part of my time with these rockets on the bridge. I know very little about it. 15593. Except the order for clearing the boats, which came very early in the proceedings? - Yes. I knew one of the boats had gone away, because I happened to be putting the firing lanyard inside the well-house after sending off a rocket, and the telephone bell rang. Somebody telephoned to say that one of the starboard boats had left the ship, and I was rather surprised. 15594. At their doing it so quickly? - No; I was rather surprised. I did not know the order had been given even to fill the boats. I reported it to the Commander. 15595. You had only heard the order, "Clear away," and the next thing was a telephone message that the starboard boat had left the ship? - Yes; the starboard after boat. 15596. Do you know anything about any other general order that was given except the order, "Clear away"? - No. The Commissioner: What is this? Mr. Roche: It is to find out what information we can, or whether any orders were given to the engine room. Some evidence has been given by one witness - I think it was the baker - that at some stage an order was given that all hands were to look after themselves. 15597. (The Commissioner.) Did you ever hear that order? - No, I did not. 15598. (Mr. Roche.) I do not think you heard any general order after the one you heard for clearing the boats? - No. 15599. It was directed to finding out whether the engineers were doing their duty at the time of the sinking or not. Did you see any of the engineers on deck at all when you were attending to your boat? - No. 15600. Not one? - No.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

15601. Did you see Mr. Ismay about that night? - Yes. 15602. Where was he? - Quite close to the bridge. 15603. At what time? - I did not look at my watch. 15604. About what time? - I do not know what time it was at all. Time was flying. 15605. Was it after the collision? - Certainly it was after the collision. It was before I left the ship. 15606. Did you see him earlier that day on the bridge? - No; that is the first time I saw Mr. Ismay since we left Southampton. 15607. Did you see Mr. Andrews that night at all? - I did. 15608. That was after the collision? - Yes. 15609. Did you hear him say anything to the Captain? - No, I did not hear him say anything. 15610. Did you hear the Captain say anything to anybody about the ship being doomed? - The Captain did remark something to me in the earlier part of the evening after the order had been given to clear the boats. I encountered him when reporting something to him, or something, and he was inquiring about the men going on with the work, and I said, "Yes, they are carrying on all right." I said, "Is it really serious?" He said, "Mr. Andrews tells me he gives her from an hour to an hour and a half." That must have

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been some little time afterwards. Evidently Mr. Andrews had been down.

15611. Can you tell us how long it was after the collision that the Captain said that? - No, I have not the slightest idea. 15612. Did you say as a matter of fact in America that it was about 20 minutes after the collision? - No, I do not think so. 15613. You could not fix the time? - I cannot fix the time; I have tried, but I cannot.

Examined by Mr. HOLMES.

15614. In addition to the difficulties you had to contend with which you have spoken of, the lack of proper crew and the suction, had you also a number of foreigners in your boat? - Yes, there was a foreign family. The Commissioner: Do you regard them necessarily as difficulties? Mr. Holmes: The foreigners, my Lord? The Commissioner: Do you? Mr. Holmes: I have not completed my question. The Commissioner: I thought you said in addition to the difficulties had he that further difficulty? 15615. (Mr. Holmes.) I said as to foreigners, and I am going to put a further question. (To the Witness.) Had you a number of foreigners in your boat? - Yes, there was a foreign family I knew of, that were close to the afterpart of the boat, where I was standing. 15616. (The Commissioner.) Were they a foreign family that could understand English? - No, they did not seem to be able to speak English or understand English. 15617. (Mr. Holmes.) Did you find they were people totally incapable of understanding any orders you might give to them? - They were. 15618. And if you had had to manoeuvre the boat to get more people in, it would have added to your difficulties? - Yes, I think so.

Examined by Mr. COTTER.

15619. You stated that lamps were put into the emergency boat and lit at 6 o'clock every night? - Yes. 15620. Do you remember if they were lit that night and put into the emergency boat? - Yes, they were. 15621. So that there would be a light in the emergency boat No. 1? - I am not going to be driven to say that. I do not think they were exactly in the boat. They were hanging in the wheelhouse or in the bridge, covered over with a canvas cover - not exactly in the boat. 15622. You do not know whether they were in the boat that night? - No, I do not remember.

Examined by Mr. LEWIS.

15623. Did you hear any order given for the firemen off duty to muster? - No, I did not. 15624. Did you see them mustered anywhere? - I saw several firemen round the bridge. 15625. Did you see any considerable number of them mustered together? - Well, I saw quite sufficient to enable me to know that the firemen had been called out.

Examined by Mr. LAING.

15626. As to the stellar observations that were worked up for the 7.30 position, did you work them up? - Yes. 15627. Did you get them from Mr. Lightoller? - Mr. Lightoller took the observations at half-past 7, before I went on deck. 15628. That is what he told us; he took the observations and gave them to you, and you worked them out? - Yes. 15629. And the Captain put the position at 7.30 on the chart at about 10? - Yes. 15630. If you can recollect, can you test your memory at all as to the position of the ice that was reported by the "La Touraine"? - Yes; I cannot give you the exact position, but, judging by the position he gave us shortly after he left New York, when he encountered a derelict, and then from the ice positions he gave us, when I put them down on the chart, I found out he had crossed the Banks, and it was too far north to be of any use to us. They were absolutely out of the way. 15631. It was away far north of your position? - Oh, yes, miles north. 15632. You told us you thought you recalled the "Caronia" Marconigram? - Yes. 15633. Do you remember whether you marked that on the chart or not? - Well, they say I did mark that. 15634. You do not remember it? - The "Caronia" Marconigram, I think, I must have marked, and probably that is the one that has been put down between 4 and 6, which they say was put down. I was on watch between 4 and 6 and it is quite likely I did it. The Solicitor-General: I want to put one or two questions about these messages, in view of what is now being asked. The Commissioner: There are one or two questions I want to ask, but I will wait till you have finished.

(After a short adjournment.)

Re-examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL.

15635. You have been giving some answers which make it necessary to ask you about the plotting of ice on the Captain's chart. Just tell me this first of all. When the "Titanic" struck of course it was necessary to ascertain her position in order that the distress messages might be sent out? - Just so. 15636. Who was it who did ascertain her position after she struck? - I did. 15637. And in order to do that you would have to calculate from some ascertained position at an earlier time? - Yes, that is right. 15638. And as I understand, the position had been ascertained and marked on the Captain's chart at 7.30? - At 7.30 the position, yes. 15639. So that what you had to do after the disaster had occurred would be to take the position on the chart at 7.30, take your course, take your speed and calculate where you would be? - Yes, from the 7.30 position I allowed a course and distance which gave the position. I worked it out for 11.46 as a matter of fact. 15640. You worked out what the position ought to have been at 11.46? - That is right. 15641. And it was that position that was sent out with the C.Q.D. messages, which we know about? - Yes. 15642. And that is the position, 41º 46' N., 50º 14' W.? - Yes. 15643. Can you tell me what speed you assumed as between the 7.30 position and the time you struck? - Twenty-two knots. 15644. Twenty-two knots? - Yes. The Commissioner: Is that right? 15645. (The Solicitor-General.) I will ask him, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Why did you take 22 knots? - I thought the ship was doing 22 knots. 15646. Was it an estimate you formed on any materials as to revolutions or as to the patent log? - No, I never depend on the patent log at all. It was an estimate that I had arrived at from the revolutions, although I had had no revolutions that watch; but, taking into consideration that it was

Page 363

smooth water and that there ought to have been a minimum of slip, I allowed 22 knots.

15647. As far as you remember, was there any discussion as to whether 22 knots would be right, or did you do it on your own? - I did it on my own; there was no discussion at all. 15648. And do you think now that you formed a proper estimate? 15649. (The Commissioner.) Did you ask the Captain as to the speed? - No, I did not. 15650. (The Solicitor-General.) I follow you had been on duty with the Senior Officer from 8 to 12? - Yes. 15651. So you were on duty at that time? - Yes. 15652. And had been on duty for 3 1/2 hours when the accident happened? - Yes. 15653. You thought 22 knots was the proper average speed during that time? - Yes, I allowed 22 knots, and I thought that was about correct. 15654. (The Commissioner.) Do you know what the speed was in the log? - No, I do not. 15655. (The Solicitor-General.) We have been told that reports are sent up from the engine room from time to time as to the number of revolutions being made? - That is true; every four hours. 15656. Have you any recollection of any report of that during this watch from 8 till 12? - No, I have no immediate recollections of what the revolutions were at 8 o'clock. I do not remember them. As a matter of fact, I never received them. The Sixth Officer, when we went on watch, generally took them from the telephone. 15657. Is that Mr. Moody? - Yes. 15658. As far as you know now, as far as you see now from the information you have, and had, is 22 knots about right? - Yes, I feel pretty easy on that. 15659. You would have to take the speed and of course you would have to take the course? - Yes. 15660. Which you have told us was S. 86 W.? - Yes. 15661. Am I right in thinking that the course as marked on the chart is S. 85 W. when you take your turn. I believe it is about S. 85 W.? - Yes. 15662. So that as I follow, the "Titanic" had run on, you say for 50 minutes longer than she otherwise would? - Did I say that? 15663. I thought you said 5.50? - I have not said that so far, but I wish to say it now. I wish to explain it. The night order book was written out and there was an order for the course to be altered at 5.50. 15664. You saw that in the order book? - Yes, I saw it and I remarked to the Chief Officer between 4 o'clock and 6 o'clock that I considered the course ought to have been altered some considerable time before 5.50 - that is, if it was meant to be altered at the corner, 42 N., 47 W. Whether we spoke to the Captain about it or not I do not know. I just remarked that to the Chief Officer, and the course was altered at 5.50. I consider that the ship was away to the southward and to the westward of that 42 N. 47 W. position when the course was altered. 15665. Perhaps you will take the chart in your hand. I want to ask you a question or two about it? - Yes. (The chart was handed to the Witness.) 15666. We have all noticed there is a point on the course, as marked on the chart, where a westbound ship turns, what you call the corner, is that what you refer to as 42 N. 47 W.? - That is so. 15667. And then your view is that the ship, when she turned on her new course at 5.50 had run beyond that corner? - Yes. 15668. And, therefore, was to the south of it? - Yes, to the south and to the westward of it. 15669. Then when she is put on her new course, her new course you tell me was S. 86 W.? - S. 86. W. 15670. Though your impression is that as it is marked on the chart the course there marked is S. 86 W.? - I think it is about S. 84 3/4 W. as a matter of fact. 15671. The effect would be she would have run a little bit further on the old course and then on the new course she is gradually making back to the line? - That is my impression of the idea which Captain Smith had in altering that course and setting it to that time. 15672. If she was going 22 knots and ran past the corner for 50 minutes that means she? - I did not say 50 minutes. 15673. No, I know you did not? - I do not remember what time it was but it was some considerable time; the difference I make between my time and the time that was given in the book - well there was such a big difference that I considered it worth mentioning to the Senior Officer of the watch. 15674. That is all right. Now we come back to the ice chart. When you looked at the 7.30 position as marked on the Captain's chart, would you say whether there was any mark of ice on the chart? - I do not remember looking at the Captain's position on the chart. I was standing by the door when he put it on. I could see my work on the chart in the distance, but I do not remember examining the thing closely. 15675. He put it on himself as representing his 7.30 position? - Yes. 15676. Then for the purpose of working out what your position was when the collision occurred did you actually have recourse to the chart? - None whatever. I had the 7.30 position in my work book. 15677. You had a note of it? - Yes. 15678. You would not have to return to look at the chart after the accident? - No, I had used that same position two or three times after giving it to the Captain, and that same course I used two or three times after giving it to the Captain as well, between 10 o'clock and the time of the collision, for the purpose of working up stellar deviations. 15679. That is to say checking where you were? - No, checking the compass error. 15680. Did I understand you to tell one of my friends that it was you who had marked upon the Captain's chart the position of ice as reported? - Yes. 15681. I am going to ask the Court to allow me to read to them in order of time some messages which we can prove got to your ship, and I will ask you if you remember them. First of all, you remember the "La Touraine" message? - Yes. 15682. Which was two days before I think, on the 12th? - I do not remember the date exactly, but I think it was about a couple of days previous. 15683. Then do you remember the "Caronia" message? - I remember the "Caronia" message; I remember having that, and I pinned that on the board. 15684. Do you remember any other message about ice or whether there was any ice? - There were others, but I cannot remember, and I cannot fix the place. 15685. Let us be careful about this. Did you say there were others? - Yes, there were others. 15686. Do you mean there were more than three; I mean there was the "La Touraine," and the "Caronia"? - There were some positions we had and I fancy we got them leaving Queenstown or got them leaving Southampton. 15687. I mean after "La Touraine"? - Yes, there was another one, but I cannot remember what it was after "La Touraine." 15688. That is the extent of your recollection. And as far as the messages were brought to your attention did you plot them out on the chart and mark them? - Yes. 15689. (The Solicitor-General.) Now, my Lord, I think the thing which is clearest for your Lordship to follow is to read the messages in order of date while this witness is here. The first one we have got a check of is the 12th of April. That is the Friday in the evening, sent from "La Touraine" to the "Titanic." May I just read the message as I have it before me? "From 'Touraine' to Captain 'Titanic.' My position, 7 p.m., G.M.T., lat. 49.28, long. 26.28 W. Dense fog since this night. Crossed thick ice-field lat. 44.58, long. 50.40' Paris'; saw another ice-field and two icebergs lat. 45.20, long. 45.09 ' Paris'; saw a derelict 40.56 long. 68.38, 'Paris.' Please give me your position. Best regards

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and bon voyage." That is signed "Caussin." I suppose that is the Captain. And that is acknowledged? - There is one thing I want to ask about that message. You allude to "Paris." Does that "Paris" mean the ship "Paris," or does it mean the longitude given as from the meridian of Paris?

15690. I think, inasmuch as it follows two longitudes, it must mean the longitude of Paris? - That is what I think. 15691. It is evidently the longitude of Paris? - Yes, and that is what we allowed. We had some discussion on board the ship - the Captain, Mr. Wilde, and myself. I forget the difference in longitude between Paris and the British meridian, but we allowed for that. 15692. Do you know what the allowance is? - I do not remember. I believe it is something like 54 minutes, but I am not sure. You can soon find out from the tables. 15693. That calls it to your mind that that message was received, and you had to make that correction? - Yes. 15694. The only one of those messages which would seem to be material, as I make it out, is the first one which says, "Crossed thick ice-field, latitude 44º 58, longitude 50º 40, Paris? - Yes, if you look at your chart you will find that position is on the outward bound tracks ships follow between August and January which is right directly across the banks. 15695. I agree. It is just underneath the words "Great Bank of Newfoundland," is it not? - No, it is above that word. All these positions were away to the northward and by dotting them down from the derelict which was the first to be reported, the westernmost report, and dotting all the positions he gave - he gave some icebergs beside field ice I believe - it showed he had taken the northerly track, and it was not worth considering, although I put it on the chart. 15696. You worked it out and found those right to the northward? - Yes. 15697. I am going to take the next one as I have it in order of time. The next one is the "Caronia," and that is to be found in the evidence of Captain Barr at page 273. It is question 12307. Will you listen to the message and see if that is what you recollect. "Westbound steamers report bergs, growlers, and field ice in 42 N. from 49 to 51 W." The Captain of the "Caronia" says that message was sent to the "Titanic" on the Sunday morning? - Westbound steamers report that? 15698. Yes? - Yes, I seem to recollect that message. 15699. Now you have the chart before you? - Yes. 15700. Let us take the latitude first - latitude 42 N. That is the same latitude as your turning-point, is it not? - Just the same latitude. 15701. What I mean is that the turning-point marked on the chart, not the place where you turned, but the turning-point on the chart is 42 N.? - Yes. I understood you to mean that. It is 42 N. 15701a. I do not know whether your Lordship has marked on your chart the 49 to 51 W. The Commissioner: Yes. 15702. (The Solicitor-General.) Of course, it is in exactly the same line as regards latitude as the latitude of the turning-point. Is it your recollection that you marked the chart in accordance with the message? - Yes, I fancy so. I am not perfectly sure, but I seem to recognise the "Caronia's" message. 15703. You seem to recognise it? - Yes. 15704. And if you got the message you are sure you marked it? - Yes, I think that I should put that on the chart. 15705. That is the second one. I am taking them in order of time. That you notice is sent at 9 o'clock in the morning, and there is a reply at 9.44 a.m., the "Caronia's" ship time; so that at any rate it is in the morning sometime? - Yes. 15706. I am going to take the next one in order of time, as far as I have a record of it. The next one I have a record of - we are going to call the Marconi gentleman about it - is a message from a ship called the "Amerika." May I just read it? "Amerika Office. 14th April, 1912. Time sent 11.45 a.m." That is, of course, New York time. It is actually sent to the Hydrographic Office, Washington, and this is the message: "'Amerika' passed two large icebergs in 41º 27' N., 50º 8' W., on the 14th of April." Our information is - a gentleman from the Marconi Company will come and prove what they know about it - that that message would go through the "Titanic" to the Hydrographic Office. That message, sent from the "Amerika" to the Hydrographic Office would be sent through the "Titanic." Of course, this gentleman does not remember that? - I do not remember that message at all. 15707. The latitude and longitude is 41º 27' N. by 50º 8' W. I do not know whether your Lordship's calculation is the same as mine. As I make it out on the chart before me, that point lies just above the first "u" in the word "August" on that dotted line, "icebergs had been seen within this line in July and August." It is south of the place of the disaster. (To the Witness.) Would you like to have a pair of dividers? - Yes, please. (The same were handed to the Witness.) The Commissioner: I am informed that it would be slightly north of the top of the first U. 15708. (The Solicitor-General.) That is just what I mean, slightly north of the top of the first "u" in the word "August"? - Yes. 15709. That is right, is it not? - Yes. 15710. As far as your memory serves you. I understand that message was not brought to your notice? - I never heard anything about it. 15711. I have not proved that it got to the "Titanic"; I am only telling the Court what I am informed. That, your Lordship sees, is 11.45. Now I will take the next one that comes from the "Baltic." The "Baltic" says that the message was sent and acknowledged by the "Titanic" at 1 p.m., to this effect, that a number of steamships have passed ice and bergs in positions varying from 49º 9' W. longitude to 50º 20' W. longitude on the outward southern track. You have the outward southern track before you as marked on the chart? - Yes. 15712. That is to say, after the corner as it were. Will you mark on that approximately 49º 9' W. longitude to 50º 20' W. longitude? - Yes. 15713. Now, just observe. Take the second of those longitudes. You know the longitude of the "Titanic" when she struck was, according to your calculation, 50º 14' W.? - Yes. 15714. That is within six minutes of the same longitude? - Yes. 15715. Now, have you any recollection of that message from the "Baltic" at one o'clock on the Sunday? - No, I have not. 15716. Or of plotting out any icebergs on the southern track? - No; all the ice I remember plotting out was to the northward of the track. If it had been on the track or to the southward I should have seen fit then to call the Captain's special attention to it at the time I put it on. But I just merely remarked to him that I had put down the ice we had had reported; whenever I did put it on the chart, I remarked to him that I had done so. But if it had been so close to the track as that I should have thought it an immediate danger to the ship. I should have pointed it out specially to him, and I never had reason to do that. 15717. Supposing that message from the "Baltic" was received and it had reference to icebergs on the southern track, your ship was only just a little to the south of that? - Yes. 15718. And are you clear that, as far as you are concerned, your attention was not called to any messages about icebergs on the southern track in that neighbourhood? - No, I do not remember anything about any ice on the track. I do not recognise that message either. 15719. You said if it had been so you would have called the Captain's special attention to it. I want to follow what the method is. Would the Captain get the message and ask you to plot it out, or would you get the message and tell the Captain when you had plotted it out? - On one or two occasions, as to anything to be plotted on the chart, he has just left it there with a note for me, or left it in the hands of

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some one else to give to me to put down on the chart. I have never seen fit to go and find the Captain and tell him I had done it. I took the first opportunity I had of seeing him to tell him I had carried out his instructions.

15720. You are the Fourth Officer? - Yes. 15721. Was it your duty in particular to plot on the chart things of that sort? - No, I do not think so, but I just seemed to be the one that he told to do it each time. 15722. That who told you to do it? - The Captain. 15723. But the Captain could not tell you unless he knew the message was there? - Oh, no, certainly not. 15724. To whom did the message go; how did you get your orders? - On one occasion I remember he gave something - I do not know whether it was a derelict - there was a message about a tank steamer drifting around on the track, that was it. And he mentioned it to one of the officers and told him to tell me to put its position on the chart. 15725. Suppose that a message came at 1 o'clock in the afternoon of that Sunday to say that icebergs were on the southern track which you were close to, would the news come to you or would it go to the Captain first? - To the Captain. 15726. And then what would he do about it? - I should think he would take it to the Senior Officer, or probably the Captain would put it on the chart himself. 15727. At any rate, you know nothing about this message at 1 o'clock? - No, and I was not on deck at 1 o'clock either. 15728. The next one in order of time is from the "Californian," and your Lordship will find that at page 201 of the shorthand notes the questions running from 8939 down to 8947. The actual message is 8943, and the "Titanic" when it was offered the message said that it had overheard it. (To the Witness.) Perhaps you will kindly plot it for me? - Yes. 15729. The message was, they said they were in latitude 42º 3' N. and in longitude 49º 9' W., and there were three large bergs five miles to the southward of them. What change will you have to make in 42º 3' N. to get five miles to the south? - I should think 42º N. would be near enough. 15730. Let us take it? - It is near enough for this small scale chart. 15731. Take it, if you will, latitude 42º N. and longitude 49º 9' W. I am going to ask the Court to look at your calculation to see if it is what they understand. You have been good enough to mark on that chart the place of ice as indicated by the "Caronia," the "Amerika," the "Baltic," and the "Californian"? - I have got the "Amerika," the "Californian" and the "Baltic." I did not put down the "Caronia." 15732. The "Caronia," as we know, is 49º to 51º? - Yes, and 42º N. 15733. Now have you any recollection of the "Californian" message reaching you or being plotted? - No, I have not. 15734. That message, as we see from the evidence, was sent at 7.30 "Californian" ship's time, and the "Californian" on any view was not very far from you. You were on duty from eight till twelve. As far as you know until I called your attention to it, had you ever plotted that message on any chart? - No. 15735. Now that is not the last. I came to another which the Court has not heard of yet. It is a message that was sent from the "Mesaba" to the "Titanic" and all east-bound ships. The Commissioner: East-bound ships? The Solicitor-General: It was sent to the "Titanic," and it was sent to east-bound ships, and according to the information we have from the Marconi people it was acknowledged by the "Titanic." Of course, that I shall have to prove. This is the message: "Ice report. In lat. 42 N. to 41.25 N. long. 49 W. to long. 50.30 W. Saw much heavy pack ice, and great number large icebergs, also field ice. Weather good, clear." The Commissioner: When is that? The Solicitor-General: That is sent at 7.50 p.m., New York time, and if one allows for the difference of two hours - one hour and fifty-five minutes, we were told - that would bring it practically to a quarter to ten that night, about two hours before the accident. 15736. Would you like to have some parallels? - Yes. (The same are handed to the Witness.) 15737. The message gives you an oblong, a parallelogram, does it not? I want you to make the parallelogram? - From 42 north and 49 west to 41.25 and 50.30. The Commissioner: Am I right in supposing - I have not heard of this message at all - that she was running to a place which was bounded by icebergs on the north and the south. Is that so? 15738. (The Solicitor-General.) According to this message it is. I do not know if I might show you and ask your Lordship's Assessors to see it, but I have marked the oblong on that plan and hatched it in pencil. (Showing to his Lordship.) (To the Witness.) Have you got the mark there? - I have only the two positions from the "Mesaba," the one position 42 north and 49 west, and the other position, "Mesaba," 41.27 north and 50.30 west. 15739. Let me read it again. The message really gives you, as I understand, an oblong, a parallelogram: "In latitude 42 north to 41.25 north" - in two lines like that (showing.); "and longitude 49 west to 50.30 west." The message mentions ice there. That means that you want to make an oblong on your chart, does it not? May I show you mine for a moment, because I am anxious to be sure that you do it right. (Showing chart to Witness.) I have given you my chart, and I want you to check it. You notice I have made an oblong on the chart, and I have sketched it in with pencil? - Yes. 15740. Just check it and see if I am not right, that that oblong is latitude 42 N. to 41.25 N., and longitude 49 W. to 50.3 W.? - Yes; that is about right. 15741. In that space the message is "Saw much heavy pack ice and great number large icebergs, also field ice"? - Yes. 15742. Is the space that was referred to by the "Baltic" within that oblong - the southern track between the two longitudes? - What are the two longitudes again? 15743. 49.9 to 50.20? - Yes, that is inside. 15744. The "Baltic's" position is inside that oblong? - Yes. 15745. Is the position that is indicated by the "Caronia," a position that is inside that oblong? - Yes. 15746. Is the position that is indicated by the "Amerika" inside that oblong? - Yes, it is. 15747. Is the position that is indicated by the "Californian" inside that oblong? - Yes. 15748. And is the space where the disaster happened inside that oblong? - Yes. 15749. (The Commissioner.) Then to sum it up, if these messages were received and were in the terms that have been stated by the Solicitor-General, this steamer was steaming a course through an oblong space, having received warning that there were icebergs on the north of her and icebergs on the south of her? - Yes, you are quite right in saying that the steamer sunk in that position. She sunk in that position. 15750. But she steamed through it did not she for some time, until she met with her doom? - Yes, she must have done. 15751. Of course, the whole thing is assumption at present, because we have not had some of these messages proved, but can you give me any explanation of why such navigation should exist? - I do not think for a moment that we had those messages, my Lord. 15752. I am asking you to assume that you did. I said that they have not been proved yet, but we are told they are going to be proved. Assuming that they are proved can you explain how the "Titanic" was allowed to find her way into such a region? - No, Sir, I cannot. The Commissioner: There are one or two other questions I want to ask you. I do not think, Sir John, the witness had better leave, because we may want him again after you have proved the messages to which you have referred.

Page 366

The Solicitor-General: Yes, my Lord. As regards two of them Mr. Boxhall has a recollection.

15753. (The Commissioner.) They are proved sufficiently already, but there are others about which he knows something. (To the Witness.) There are two or three questions I wanted to ask you, not on this point at all but on another point. You remember telling us that you first went down after the collision to F deck? - Yes. 15754. Did you when you went down to F deck get to bulkheads C and D - you had better look at the plan. You see the bulkheads marked there do not you? - Yes, I see them marked. Yes, I think I did, Sir. 15755. And when you got there you saw no damage? - No, Sir. 15756. There are doors in those bulkheads C and D? - Yes, Sir, on the port side. 15757. Can you tell us whether those doors were closed? - Not then, my Lord. 15758. Not when you were there? - No, that is shortly after the collision. 15759. They were not closed? - No. 15760. You say they were not closed then? Were they closed later on? - That I cannot say. I was not down below later on. 15761. Then you have told us all about that. Is there a door at the forward end of the starboard alleyway? - Yes, on E deck. 15762. Is that a watertight door? - I did not stop to look, but the thing was closed against me. I think it is a watertight door myself. I presume so. 15763. But you do not know? - No. The Commissioner: I daresay, Sir Robert, someone can tell us whether that door is a watertight door. Can you tell us what it is? It is a door at the forward end of the starboard alleyway on E deck. Sir Robert Finlay: No, my Lord, it is an iron door, not watertight. Perhaps your Lordship would show Mr. Wordingham the particular door referred to on the plan so that there may be no mistake about it. 15764. (The Commissioner.) Certainly. (Mr. Wordingham looked at the plan.) We are told it is not a watertight door. (To the Witness.) Did you go into the space between bulkheads C and D on F deck? - I am not certain about that, my Lord. 15765. At all events, you saw no water between D and C? - I saw no damage whatever, and no water either. 15766. Are we to understand from that that when you went on to F deck on this occasion you saw no damage of any kind? - No damage whatever, and I went right to the ship's side - to the thwartship alleyways leading out to the ship's side.

(The Witness withdrew.)

HAROLD GODFREY LOWE, Sworn.

Examined by Mr. ROWLATT.

15767. Harold Godfrey Lowe, is that your name? - Yes. 15768. Were you the Fifth Officer on the "Titanic"? - I had that honour. 15769. You have a Master's certificate of competency? - I have. 15770. I think you joined at Belfast, did you not? - I did. 15771. Was it your duty to look at the boats at Belfast and see that they were all there, and so on? - I was instructed by Mr. Murdoch, the then Chief Officer of the ship, to do so. 15772. Did you do it? - I did. 15773. You went through the boats and their equipment at Belfast? - Yes, I, in company with Mr. Moody went. 15774. He was lost? - We went through the starboard boats. 15775. Not the port side boats? - Not the port side boats. 15776. Did anybody go through the port side boats? - Mr. Boxhall and Mr. Pitman went through the port boats. 15777. I will not ask you in detail about that, but you sailed on the voyage. What was your watch on the Sunday of the accident? - My watch was the afternoon watch from 12 to 4 and from 6 to 8 in the evening. 15778. When did you go on again after that? - At midnight. 15779. You were on duty from 6 to 8? - I was. 15780. Did you hear anything about any messages about ice? - There was a chit on the chart room table with the word "ice" on. 15781. You mean a little piece of paper with "ice" written on it? - A square chit of paper about 3 x 3. 15782. On the chart room table? - On our chart room table. 15783. What is that - "Our chart room table"? - The officers chart room table, and the word "ice" was written on top and then a position underneath. 15784. Can you remember what the position was? - I cannot. 15785. Is that all that was brought to your attention about ice that day? - That is all. 15786. Did you hear of Marconigrams coming about ice? - That was the only information I saw regarding ice. 15787. That is all you have to say about your knowledge of ice on board the ship on that day? - Yes, that is all I know about it. 15788. You went off watch at 8 o'clock? - Yes. 15789. Did you turn in? - I went to bed. 15790. Were you asleep at the time of the collision? - I was. 15791. Just tell us what woke you up? - I was half awakened by hearing voices in our quarters, because it is an unusual thing, and it woke me up. I suppose I lay down there for a little while until I fully realised, and then I jumped out of bed and opened my door a bit and looked out, and I saw ladies in our quarters with lifebelts on. 15792. When you first looked out people had got their lifebelts on? - They had. 15793. Do you know the time? - I do not. I have not the remotest idea of the time right throughout. 15794. Were the boats being attended to? - As soon as I looked out through the door I jumped back and got dressed and went out on deck, and the boats were being cleared. 15795. (The Commissioner.) The boats had been cleared did you say? - The boats were being cleared. 15796. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did you go to the starboard side first? - I had to go round the port side first, that is on my way to the starboard. 15797. As you were round the port side, the boats there were being cleared, were they? - Yes. 15798. Did you take any part in clearing the boats there or have anything to do in connection with them on the port side? - No. 15799. You got to the starboard side? - I got to the starboard side. 15800. What boat did you get to? - The first boat I went to was No. 7. 15801. That would be the aftermost one upon the starboard side? - No; that would be the after boat of the forward section. 15802. You came round behind the deck-house? - No, I came round abaft the second funnel. 15803. Was that the boat to which you belonged? - No. 15804. What was the boat to which you belonged? - I do not know. 15805. (The Commissioner.) Why do not you know? - I do not know why, but I do not. 15806. Was it your business to find out? - I suppose it was.

Page 367

15807. And you did not do it? - No, Sir. 15808. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Why did you go round to No. 7? - Because the people were there. 15809. What was being done at No. 7? - Loading it with women and children. 15810. Did you assist there? - I did. 15811. Did you see that boat lowered? - I did; I assisted in lowering it. 15812. Then did you go to No. 5? - I went to No. 5. 15813. Did you see that lowered? - I did. 15814. Did you assist? - I did. 15815. When you say you assisted, did you take charge of the operations? - I assisted; that is to say, Mr. Murdoch was superintending. 15816. Mr. Murdoch was there? - Yes. 15817. Then was No. 5 lowered after No. 7? - No. 5 was lowered after No. 7. 15818. Did you then go to No. 3? - I then went to No. 3. 15819. Was that lowered? - That was lowered. 15820. And did you then go to the emergency boat? - I went to No. 1, the emergency boat. 15821. Was that lowered? - Yes. 15822. When your boat was lowered that lot of boats were finished with. Did you notice any list? - No. 15823. Was the vessel down by the head? - Yes. 15824. You noticed that? - Yes, of course I did. I noticed that as soon as I got up. 15825. Did you look for any lights at this time at all? - As I was getting the emergency boat ready, No. 1, Mr. Boxhall was firing the detonators, the distress signals, and somebody mentioned something about a ship on the port bow, and I glanced over in that direction casually and I saw a steamer there. 15826. What did you see of her? - I saw her two masthead and her red sidelights. 15827. That accounts for all these four boats? - Yes, the forward section. 15828. Where did you go then? - I then went to No. 14. 15829. That is right aft on the other side, is it not? - That would be the second forward boat of the after section, and the second boat from aft of the after section. 15830. Why did you go to her in particular? - Because they seemed to be busy there. 15831. Did you go to assist there? - I did. 15832. Who was in charge there? - I do not know who was in charge there. I finished up loading No. 14, and Mr. Moody was finishing up loading No. 16? - Yes. 15833. You were loading No. 14 and he was loading No. 16? - Yes. 15834. Did you see anything about No. 12? - No. 12 would be the forward boat - the boat next to me forward? -Yes. 15835. Yes? - Numbers 12, 14 and 16 went down pretty much at the same time. 15836. You went in No. 14, did not you? - Yes. 15837. Did you go by anybody's orders? - I did not. I saw five boats go away without an officer, and I told Mr. Moody on my own that I had seen five boats go away, and an officer ought to go in one of these boats. I asked him who it was to be - him or I - and he told me, "You go; I will get in another boat." 15838. I forget where he comes in order of seniority; is he senior to you or junior to you? - No, he was junior. 15839. Were you lowered in that boat? - I was lowered in No. 14. 15840. I want to ask you a little about that. Was there any difficulty in lowering when you got near the water? - Yes, I slipped her. 15841. Did the falls go wrong? - Something got wrong and I slipped her. 15842. That means to say, you threw off the lever when you were some way from the water? - I should say I dropped her about 5 feet. 15843. Your Lordship remembers that Scarrott told us about that. Was that because the falls -? - That was because I was not going to wait and chance being dipped down by the stern by anybody on top, so I thought it was best for me to drop, and know what I was doing. 15844. No doubt you dealt with the situation quite rightly, but I want to know what caused the situation. Was it because the rope would not run any further? - I do not know, because, you must understand that the lowering away was being carried out on deck, and I must have been about 64 feet below that deck, and I could not see it. 15845. Did you look up? - Yes. 15846. Could you tell me why you were not being lowered further? - No. 15847. You could not? - No. 15848. One of the men in your boat has given evidence, and he says he looked up and saw the rope of the falls twisted? - No; I looked up and I could not see anything. 15849. Just let me ask you this, because it is fair to ask you it. Could they twist? - I suppose they could. 15850. Can the blocks revolve at the top? - Oh, yes, the blocks are movable in the davits; they are swivelled; both are swivelled, the top and bottom blocks. 15851. Then you got to the water and you slipped her, as you say? - Yes. 15852. Did you take command of the boat? - Yes. 15853. What did you do with her? - I took, I think it was, No. 12 to a distance of about 150 yards from the ship, and told him to stay there until I gave him orders to go away or any other orders. I then came back to the ship and escorted another boat, and so on, until I had five boats there. 15854. You gathered five boats together? - Yes. 15855. There is just another thing I want to ask you. Did you use a revolver at all? - I did. 15856. How was that? - It was because while I was on the boat deck just as they had started to lower, two men jumped into my boat. I chased one out and to avoid another occurrence of that sort I fired my revolver as I was going down each deck, because the boat would not stand a sudden jerk. She was loaded already I suppose with about 64 people on her, and she would not stand any more. 15857. You were afraid of the effect of any person jumping in the boat through the air? - Certainly, I was. 15858. In your judgment had she enough in her to lower safely? - She had too many in her as far as that goes. I was taking risks. 15859. You say you collected these four boats together at a distance of about 150 yards? - Yes. 15860. Can you judge how long that was before the ship went down? - I have not the remotest idea of time from the time she went down until we boarded the "Carpathia." All I know is that when we boarded the "Carpathia" in the morning it was six o'clock, and that is the only time I know of. 15861. You could not give me any idea? - I could not; it is no good my trying. 15862. What did you do after you got the four boats out there? - I tied them together in a string, and made them step their masts. 15863. What was that for? - In case it came on to blow, and then they would be ready. 15864. Did you transfer any of your passengers? - Yes, I transferred all of them. 15865. Among the other boats? - Into the other four boats. 15866. Why did you do that? - So as to have an empty boat to go back. 15867. (The Commissioner.) To do what? - To go back to the wreck. 15868. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Was that before the "Titanic" foundered or after? - No, that was after she went down. 15869. Having got an empty boat, did you go back to the wreckage? - I did. 15870. Was there much wreckage? - No, very little. 15871. (The Commissioner.) Am I to understand that you were alone in the boat? - No. 15872. (Mr. Rowlatt.) You were there with your crew? - Yes. The Commissioner: How many men had you an the boat? - I do not know; I should say seven. 15873. Including yourself? - Yes, I should say six and myself.

Page 368

15874. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did you row six oars back to the wreck? - No, five oars, I think, and I had a man on the look-out. 15875. I understand what you say is that you got rid of the passengers. You got rid of the people who could not do anything, and went back with a working crew to look for people who were drowning; that is what you mean? - Yes; it would be no good me going back with a load of people. 15876. Certainly; I am not complaining; I am only trying to bring it out in your favour, if I may say so. You rescued some people, did not you? - I picked up four. 15877. I think one died in the boat, did he not? - One died, a Mr. Hoyte, of New York. [Mr. William F. Hoyt.] 15878. Were they men? - Four men. 15879. Did you see any other people alive? - Not one, or else I should have picked them up. 15880. Did you see bodies? - Yes. 15881. After that did you come across the submerged collapsible of which we have heard? - Yes. 15882. It was you who took the people off that, was it? - I did. 15883. Was it the one with Mr. Lightoller on board? - No, it was not. 15884. Another one? - Another one. 15885. Were there two submerged collapsibles? - I do not know - I did not know at the time, but, of course, I know now. The one that I picked up, I reckon, had been pierced, but I do not know. She was right side up and all that. 15886. Was she extended, or whatever you call it, opened out; were the collapsible sides pulled up? - No, the sides had dropped somehow or other. 15887. She was flat? - She was right side up. 15888. Can you give us any idea of who were on board of her - you do not know? - No. I can only give you one, and that was the lady that was on board there. 15889. The lady? - Yes. 15890. Can you tell me how many collapsibles got to the "Carpathia," because we cannot account for the collapsibles? - I abandoned one, and then I towed [Original shows "told."] another one while I was under sail to the "Carpathia"; that is two; then the one that Mr. Lightoller was on, that is three. I do not know where the fourth is. 15891. So far as you know there were only three ever got away from the wreck in any shape? - As far as I know.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

15892. You stated in giving evidence in America that a crowd went down to the gangway doors to get them open, and that you were going to load the boats and take passengers in from these gangway doors? - I did. 15893. It has come out in the evidence that a number of women and children perished on the "Titanic." I believe that is a fact. May it be that in the expectation of this method being carried out, a number of the women and children were directed down to these gangways? - No, it is not. 15894. Were you giving directions as to the filling of boat No. 1? - I was. 15895. And the lowering of her? - And the lowering of her. 15896. She was loaded with a very small number of passengers - five? - I do not know how many there were. I took everybody that was there; that is all I know. 15897. (The Commissioner.) You took what? - I cleared the deck, my Lord. 15898. You mean to say that when you took the people into No. 1 there were no people left on the deck? - There were no people left on the starboard deck. 15899. (Mr. Scanlan.) At that time what search did you have made for people - for passengers? - I did not make any search. 15900. You did not, for instance, send over to the port side to find if there were any women or children? - No, because I wanted to get the boats away. I did not have any time to waste. 15901. And you did not send down to any of the lower decks? - There was nobody on the next deck. I stopped the boat there and asked them to look. 15902. Or on any of the lower decks? - I do not know about that. I stopped the lowering of the boat at A deck, and told the men to have a look there, and they saw nobody. 15903. There was no particular reason why that boat should have been lowered with only five passengers? - No particular reason why the boat should be lowered with only five people. The Commissioner: You are following a bad example, Mr. Scanlan. Instead of asking questions, you are making a statement, and I do not think your statement is in accordance with his evidence. 15904. (Mr. Scanlan.) I appreciate the mistake, my Lord. (To the Witness.) At the time that boat No. 1 was lowered there were still other boats on the starboard side? - That I am not prepared to answer; I do not know. 15905. I mean boats were lowered after No. 1? - I say I do not know.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

15906. Is it not the function of lifeboats on a steamer, as far as possible, to take away the full complement of passengers? - Yes; but I was working on the idea that the gangway doors were going to be opened and take people from there. 15907. And that was why you lowered the boats from the boat deck when they were not altogether full? - Certainly; we were not going to load the boat with its floating capacity from the davits. 15908. What grounds or evidence had you for the opinion you formed that there were going to be additional people put in the lifeboats from the gangways? - I really forget now. I must have overheard it. 15909. Do you remember whom you overheard saying it? - I do not. 15910. Did you hear any instructions given for these gangways to be opened? - Had I any instructions? 15911. Did you hear any instructions given? - No; but as I say, I overheard a conversation somewhere referring to the gangway doors being opened, and that the boatswain and a crowd of men had been sent down there. 15912. With reference to these boats that were lowered on your side at which you assisted, did you, after they had been lowered, take any means of communicating with those on board in order to have them filled up through the gangways? - Yes. I told them to haul off from the ship's side, but to remain within hail. That is what I told each of them with the exception of the boat that Mr. Pitman went in. 15913. What I want to get at is this: You having formed the impression that the boats were going to be filled to their full complement from the gangways, did you take any steps to have the gangway doors opened or in any way to have passengers brought to the gangways? - Haven't I told you that the order had been given to open the gangway doors by somebody else? 15914. Were there people collected, do you know, at the gangway doors that had been opened? - I do not, because that was in the hands of the Senior Officers, and I was a junior. 15915. Beyond lowering these boats and forming that impression, you did nothing to open up communication with the gangways and have the people brought there and lowered into these boats? - No, I did not. 15916. You just mentioned one fact that I would like to put to you. You say you saw five boats go away without an officer? - I did. 15917. Were there any officers there to take control of the boats? - How do you mean, were there any officers there?

Page 369

15918. Why did these five boats go away without an officer? - Because I suppose the officers were busy working elsewhere. 15919. In your opinion would it have been better organisation if on this occasion there had been more officers on board to look after the boats? - No. 15920. Do you think that more officers on the "Titanic" would have been necessary? - No. 15921. Why not? - For the simple reason that men, as long as there is somebody to look after a bunch of them, are all right. 15922. Do you think it was a proper system of organisation that would allow five boats to be lowered without any officer in control? - Certainly. 15923. You do? - Yes. 15924. Who was in control of each of those five boats? - I do not know who was in control of them. 15925. Do you know if anybody was in control? - Certainly; there were men in charge of them. 15926. But did not you tell the Court that it was because you saw five boats go away without an officer that you and Mr. Moody got into two of them? - Mr. Moody got into a boat? Mr. Laing: Moody was drowned. 15927. (Mr. Harbinson.) You got into one and somebody else got into the other? - I got into No. 14. 15928. Did not you say that it was because these five boats went without an officer that you got in? - Yes. 15929. Therefore you thought it desirable that an officer should be in them? - Not an officer in each boat. 15930. But that an officer should be there in control. So far as you saw did it take a fairly considerable time to launch these boats? - No. Mr. Harbinson: How long did it take? The Commissioner: That question is of no use as far as I am concerned, because I do not know what you mean. Mr. Harbinson: The position I wish to lead up to is if he considers there were sufficient seamen there to secure the efficient launching and manning of the boats. The Commissioner: He has told us he can say nothing about the time, and then you put a question to him which contains the expression "a considerable time." I do not understand that. I do not know whether it is an hour or five minutes or twenty minutes or five minutes. I do not know what you mean by "a considerable time." Mr. Harbinson: Yes, my Lord, I understand. The Commissioner: You can put it right by stating a time, and then I shall understand it. 15931. (Mr. Harbinson.) Did it take half an hour to launch these boats? - I do not know. It was not the launching of the boats that took the time. We got the whole boat out and in the water in less than ten minutes. It was getting the people together that took the time. 15932. Did you hear any orders given to the people brought up to the boat deck? - Yes. I forget now who I heard, but I heard the order given anyhow; "Everybody on the boat deck." 15933. Do you think there were sufficient seamen on board the "Titanic" adequately to carry out the operation of launching the boats? - Certainly, they did so. 15934. Did they do it? - Yes. 15935. Did they take what you consider a normal time or an abnormal time to do it? - It depends upon what you mean by "an abnormal time," less time or more time? 15936. Do you think it would have been done quicker if there had been more men? - No. The thing was done as I do not suppose any other ship could do it. 15937. In the same time? - No ship could have done it in better time, and better in all respects - in every respect. 15938. How do you account for it that when you went back you were only able to pick up four people? - I do not know. 15939. What distance were you from the place where the "Titanic" had sunk when you returned? - What is that? 15940. When you began to return with your empty boat how far had you to row to the place? - About 150 yards. 15941. Only 150 yards? - Yes; I stated before 150 yards. 15942. And there were five of you rowing? - Yes, five I think, and there was one on the look-out, and myself steering. 15943. Did you return to the wreckage immediately after the "Titanic" had disappeared? - I did not. 15944. Had you any reason for not doing so? - I had. 15945. Would you mind telling me what it was? - Because it would have been suicide to go back there until the people had thinned out. 15946. Your boat at that time was empty except for the crew? - It was. 15947. And it was one of the ordinary lifeboats, with the gunwale a considerable distance above the water? - Yes. 15948. I put it to you, as an experienced seaman, would not it be impossible for people who were struggling in the water to get into the boat without the assistance of those who were in the boat? - No, it would not. 15949. They could not get in without help? - Yes. 15950. Therefore if you had gone back to where the "Titanic" had sunk, it would have been impossible for these people who were floating about to have swamped your boat, because you could have detached them? Is not that so? - How could you detach them? 15951. How could they get into the boat without you helped them in? - Could not a man hold his weight on the side like that (showing) without help from me? 15952. Is not the gunwale three or four feet above the level of the water? - No, the boat only stands up like that (showing). 15953. About what height would the gunwale of the boat be above the water? - There are lifelines round the lifeboat too and they could get hold of those and hang on the rail. 15954. Do not you think it would have been possible for the crew of your boat to have got a considerable number of people out of the water? - No, it would have been useless to try it, because a drowning man clings at anything.

Examined by Mr. HOLMES.

15955. Is it a fact that the same falls that lower No. 1 boat are also required to lower the collapsible boat underneath it? - Yes. 15956. And that would be an additional reason for wanting to get No. 1 into the water as quickly as possible? - Yes, it would be. 15957. Did you know Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon by sight? - I did not. I did not know a soul on board. 15958. Did you ever say to Lady Duff-Gordon, "Come along, Lady Duff-Gordon"? - I said nothing to her. I simply bundled her into the boat. 15959. I think after you had got rid of your passengers and went back with the crew you spent a considerable time in rescuing one man from some wreckage? - Yes, it was rather awkward to get in amongst it, because you could not row, because of the bodies. You had to push your way through. 15960. And that would account, perhaps, for the time you took to take one man off? - Certainly it would. 15961. Did the wind get up after that? - Yes, a breeze sprang up then. 15962. Did you put up your sail? - Yes. 15963. Did you keep your sail up and tow the other boat while you were sailing? - I kept the sail up from then until I got alongside the "Carpathia," and towed the collapsible and picked up the other collapsible - the sinking one. 15964. Have you any suggestion to make as to the sail that you had in the boat? Was it a suitable

Page 370

sail for the occasion? - The sail might be improved.

The Commissioner: What is the meaning of that? Was there ever a time when you used the sail? Mr. Holmes: He did, in fact, use the sail. 15965. (The Commissioner.) When did you use the sail? - I used the sail from the time I got to the wreck until I got on board the "Carpathia." 15966. Then you were using it for several hours? - I do not know about several hours. I suppose it was about 2 1/2 hours. 15967. (Mr. Holmes.) What is your suggestion? - That they be made without a dipping tack - that the tack be lashed abaft the mast, the same as ordinary lugsails. 15968. Did you find it difficult to manoeuvre it with passengers in your boat? - Besides that you want a man that knows something about dipping tack. You have to lower the sail and slacken the sheet before you can dip it. 15969. Can you tell us the last you saw of Mr. Moody on the "Titanic"? - When I had that conversation with him. That is the last I saw of him. 15970. Did you see whether he actually got into any other boat? - No, I did not. 15971. You are one of the junior officers to whom the two-watch system applies? - Yes. 15972. Does that mean that you never have more than a period of four hours on a stretch off watch? - Yes. 15973. Do you consider that is satisfactory, or do you think that the three-watch system should be applied to the junior officers as well as to the senior officers? - Of course, three watches would be far better. 15974. Do you think you would be better able to perform you duties? - Oh, no, I do not know about performing your duties, but we would have more time to ourselves, naturally.

Examined by Mr. COTTER.

15975. Do you remember being at No. 5 boat with Mr. Murdoch? - Yes. 15976. Do you remember meeting a gentleman there who was interfering with the work? - Yes. 15977. Who was it? - I afterwards learned it was Mr. Bruce Ismay. 15978. What did he say to you or say to anybody; was he giving orders? - No, he was trying all in his power to help the work, and he was getting a little bit excited. 15979. What was he doing to help the work? - He was going like this, "Lower away, lower away" (showing). Mr. Cotter: Do you consider any passenger on board a ship has a right to go to the officers and give orders of that description to "lower away"? The Commissioner: You must not ask him that question. What he considers a passenger has a right to do has nothing to do with it. 15980. (Mr. Cotter.) What did you say to Mr. Ismay? - I think you know. 15981. Did you see Mr. Ismay go into any boat? - No. I told him what I said, and I told the men to go ahead clearing No. 3 boat, and Mr. Ismay went there and helped them. 15982. You did not see him go into a boat afterwards? - No.

Examined by Sir ROBERT FINLAY.

15983. Did Mr. Ismay do all he could to help? - He did everything in his power to help. 15984. You saw this chit, the note about the ice on the table? - Yes. 15985. Did you work it out? - I worked it out roughly. 15986. You were on watch 6 to 8? - Yes. I ran this position through my mind, and worked it out mentally, and found that the ship would not be within the ice region during my watch, that is, from six to eight. 15987. You do not recollect what the figures were? - I do not. 15988. But that was the result you arrived at? - That was the result I arrived at. 15989. You have told us about your firing a revolver in consequence of two men trying to jump in? - Yes. 15990. Who were they? - One was - I do not know whether he was an Italian or what, but he was of the Latin races anyhow? 15991. And who was the other? - I do not know who the other was. He managed to get out of the road. 15992. What was he like; was he fair or dark? - I do not know. If I had I should have chased him out. 15993. You have told us how you tied the boats under your command together and went back with your boat with only the crew to help? - Yes. 15994. Did you approach as soon as you thought you could do so with reasonable safety? - I did. I had to wait until I could be of some use. It was no good going back there to be swamped. 15995. And you saved some. Then coming back you were under sail, if I rightly understand? - I was. 15996. And you took your own collapsible in tow? - That was the collapsible that I had in the string of boats, yes. 15997. And then you met another collapsible? - I did not meet her. It was a good way off and I sailed down to her. 15998. I want you to tell me a little particularly about that collapsible. How many people were on her? - I do not know. I do not want to appear sarcastic, or anything like that, but you do not count people in a case like this. I should say, roughly, about twenty men and one woman. 15999. And you took them off her? - Yes. 16000. She was in a bad way rather? - Yes. 16001. Did you leave anyone on that collapsible? - I did. I left three bodies. 16002. Are you certain that the three bodies that you left were the bodies of dead people? - Absolutely certain. 16003. Did you satisfy yourself about that? - I made the men on that collapsible turn those bodies over before I took them into my boat. I said, "Before you come on board here you turn those bodies over and make sure they are dead," and they did so. 16004. Is there the slightest doubt in your own mind that they were dead? - Not the slightest doubt. 16005. When you were on the "Titanic" did you get the revolutions? - I did. 16006. What was the highest? - The highest I remember was 75 revolutions per minute. 16007. That was on the 14th April, was it? - I do not know that it was on the 14th; it may have been at any time as far as I know; but that is as far as I remember. Seventy-five was the highest revolutions. 16008. On the voyage? - Yes. 16009. (The Commissioner.) Do you see any reason why the lifeboats should not have been lowered full of people? - Yes, I do. 16010. Did you see any one of them lowered full of people - I mean with about 60 in the boat? - No, sir, I could not say that I did. 16011. What in your opinion is the reason why the boat should not be lowered full of people? - The reason, my Lord, is that the boat is suspended from both ends, and all the weight is in the middle, and that being so the boat is apt to buckle, that is, break in the middle, and both ends buckle up like that (Showing.) and shoot the whole lot out of her. 16012. At all events you would not think it safe to do it? - No. 16013. How many were in your boat when it was lowered? - I mustered them when I got away from the ship and there were 58 passengers - that would be 65 altogether.

Page 371

16014. That was lowered without buckling? - Yes, but I said I was taking on risks, Sir. 16015. Did you see the "Titanic" sink? - I did. 16016. Can you tell me anything about this righting of the afterend of the vessel; did you see that? - No, I did not see her right at all - you mean to say that she evened up on her keel? 16017. Yes, the afterpart of her? - No, my Lord, I did not. 16018. Did you see her actually go down? - I did. 16019. If she had righted herself in that way would you have seen it? - Yes, because I was within 150 yards of her. (Q.) And you did not see that? - (A.) I did not.

(The Witness withdrew.)

The Commissioner: Have you finished the officers now?
The Solicitor-General: Yes, my Lord. What we want to do next is to give the evidence about the wireless messages, which will involve the calling of the gentleman from the Marconi Company, who has got the proces verbal, and will also, of course, involve the calling of Bride, the assistant operator on the "Titanic,' who was saved; and I shall be able, as I am informed, to prove those messages which I put to the last witness but one.
The Commissioner: I should think, Sir John, that that need not take very long; I mean to say, it is evidence about which you can lead the witnesses, and they are witnesses that probably will not require any, what I call, cross-examination. There will be no dispute about their evidence.
The Solicitor-General: What I am proposing to do now - and I think it will probably help Sir Robert Finlay if it was done promptly - is to put in the box the gentleman from the Marconi Company, and show how I prove these messages that I put to the officer; and then, if there is any challenge about it, probably during the adjournment any further checking that is necessary can be done.
The Commissioner: Do you mean to say you want to call him now?
The Solicitor-General: If your Lordship wishes it I am prepared to do it at once.
The Commissioner: What do you say, Sir Robert?
Sir Robert Finlay: I have no objection if it will save time. I understand my friend's examination will only take a short time.
The Commissioner: It might be convenient that you should examine the witness to-night, and that any cross-examination should stand over until tomorrow.
The Solicitor-General: Of course, my learned friend's clients would wish to satisfy themselves that this series of messages got to their ship, and I want them to know why it is I suggest that they did get to the ship.
The Commissioner: You had better, perhaps, call him now, and it is possible, after Sir Robert Finlay has heard all they say, he will not consider it necessary to cross-examine. It may be.
Sir Robert Finlay: We will consider that, and if there is any cross-examination it will be deferred until tomorrow morning.
The Solicitor-General: Yes, it may be there are one or two further things that I cannot conveniently get from the witness until tomorrow.

GEORGE ELLIOTT TURNBULL, Sworn.

Examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL.

16020. What is your position in The Marconi International Marine Communication Company? - I am the Deputy-Manager, Sir. 16021. I think that Company has its Head Office here in London? - Yes. 16022. In the Adelphi? - No, in the Strand. 16023. I thought it was Watergate House, York Buildings, Adelphi? - It has just been changed, last week, Sir. 16024. You being the Deputy-Manager, are you the head official in England? - No, Sir. The head official in England is the Managing Director, Mr. Godfrey Isaacs, and the Manager is in America at present. His name is Mr. Bradfield. 16025. Was the wireless installation on the "Titanic" an installation of yours and worked by servants of your Company? - Yes. 16026. Can you tell me, or had I better ask Mr. Bride, what was the radius within which communication could be made by the "Titanic"? - The guaranteed range of the "Titanic" was 350 miles. That range is considerably exceeded in many cases, especially at nighttime, but we always guarantee a very low figure, so that we can cope with work in every circumstance. 16027. 350 miles was the minimum which you had undertaken to provide? - Yes. 16028. Was it new apparatus? - Absolutely new. 16029. And of the latest pattern? - Yes. 16030. As a matter of fact, I am not speaking of the guarantee now, but can you help us as to what its effective radius would be? - We are always very cautious about figures, but I feel certain that the "Titanic" would do 500 miles, and she could receive up to 1,500 miles from high power stations. 16031. When you speak of high-power stations, are those fixed stations on the mainland? - Yes, those are fixed stations. 16032. And you call those high-power stations? - Yes. 16033. Are they able to send a message a greater distance? - Yes. 16034. Does the distance, the range, which can be covered by a message, depend on the strength of the apparatus that sends it, or on the strength of the apparatus that receives it, or both? - It depends on both, but considerably more on the apparatus which sends it. 16035. I think you mentioned - and we have heard it from another witness - that at nighttime apparently the range is greater from a ship like the "Titanic" than in the day? - Yes, considerably greater, anything from two to three times as much. 16036. When you say a 500 miles range do you mean 500 miles in the daytime? - Our guaranteed range of 350 miles is in the daytime, yes. 16037. And you say it is two or three times as great on occasions at night? - Yes, on many occasions. 16038. On the "Titanic," as we know, you had two operators? - Yes. 16039. Mr. Phillips, who lost his life, and Mr. Bride, who was saved and who is here? - Yes. 16040. Mr. Bride being the assistant of Mr. Phillips? - Yes. 16041. Are they servants of your company? - Yes. 16042. Then of course there must be some arrangement between your company and the White Star Line? - Yes, a very clear arrangement. 16043. We need not, I think, go into that. Is it the practice with ships which have your installation that from time to time the records they have of messages sent and received come back to your office? - It is not only the practice, but it is the absolute rule. 16044. I think you call them procès-verbal, do not you? - The operator transcribes everything he does from the beginning of the voyage until the end of a voyage on a procès-verbal, and in addition to that he transcribes all messages sent and received upon special sent and received forms which are drawn up for the purpose; so that we have the procès-verbal, which is a log of the work done during the voyage, and we have the official records of the telegrams on special forms. These are all returned to the head office when the ship returns to port. 16045-6. That is the regular course of business? - That is the regular course of business. 16047. Had you got in your office, and I think you have brought here, the procès-verbal of the "La Touraine" of the 12th April? - Yes, we have an extract from the procès-verbal.

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The "Caronia" of the 14th? - Yes.
The "Amerika" of the 14th? - Yes, we have; those arrived this morning.
The "Baltic" of the 14th? - Yes.
The "Californian" of the 14th? - Yes.
And the "Mesaba" of the 14th? - Yes, we have. I am not absolutely certain whether we have the "La Touraine" procès-verbal.
It does not matter about that because it has been admitted practically? - But we have the official messages, Sir.
Of course the records that were being made on the "Titanic" have all been lost, I presume; you have not any actual record? - No, but we have endeavoured to reconstitute the record of the "Titanic's" communications just as the "Titanic" would have done it herself.
Of course you can do that because there must always be two ends to every message? - Yes, that is so, and several ships have overheard the communications.
The Solicitor-General: I think I will first take the messages from the ships I have mentioned. The first one, the "La Touraine," I do not think there is any dispute about.
The Commissioner: Just read it out. (To the Witness.) Are you able to check it when it is read out to you.
The Commissioner: Then read it out and ask him if it is correct.
(The Solicitor-General.) Yes. I have it in print before me, and I will read it out to you. "Office sent to M.G.Y. Time sent 7.10 p.m." Is that the one? - Yes.
What does "M.G.Y." mean? - That is the call letters for the "Titanic."
That shows it was sent to the "Titanic"? - Yes.
"No. 1. 'La Touraine' Office. 12 April, 1912. Prefix M.S.G." What does "M.S.G." mean? - That means "Master Service Message," a message which is transmitted on the subject of the navigation of the ship.
A message passing between one master and another? - Yes.
The last letter is "G." "Words 57. From 'Touraine.' To Capt. 'Titanic.' My position 7 p.m. G.M.T." - Greenwich Mean Time - "lat. 49.28 long. 26.28 W. dense fog since this night crossed thick ice-field lat. 44.58 long. 50.40 'Paris' saw another ice-field and two icebergs lat. 45.20 long. 45.09 'Paris' saw a derelict lat. 40.56 long. 68.38 'Paris' please give me your position best regards and bon voyage. Caussin"? - Quite correct.
Do I understand rightly that the reference there to "Paris" which follows the longitude means that it is longitude from the meridian of Paris? - Yes.
So a correction would have to be made to get Greenwich? - Yes, of course.
That is the message from the "Touraine" to the "Titanic." Can you find me the message which shows whether or not that was acknowledged by the "Titanic"? - Yes, I have it here.
I am going to read that to you. "Office received from M.G.Y." You told me that means received from the "Titanic." "Time received 7.45 p.m.," on April, 12th. "No. 1 'La Touraine' Office, 12 April, 1912. Prefix M.S.G. Words 26. from 'Titanic.' To Capt. 'La Touraine,' Thanks for your message and information my position. 7 p.m. G. M. T. Lat. 49.45; long. 23.38. W. Greenwich; had fine weather; compliments. - Smith"? - Quite right.
Before we pass from those two there is a reference here to the time, 7.10 p.m. and 7.45 p.m. When the time of the clock is entered on a Marconi message what time does it refer to? - When the ships are west of 40º New York time is kept; when they are east of 40º Greenwich time is kept.
If you take the first of those, the message from the "Touraine," he was not west of 40º, because he was in longitude 26; he was on the European side? - Yes.
When he says "7.10 p.m.," I understand if he is to the east of the 40th meridian that means Greenwich time, does it? - It ought to.
It says so? - I have not checked those differences in time.
It is quite right. He says so. "My position 7 p.m. Greenwich meantime," and in the same way the answer is from the "Titanic" when she is a good deal more easterly, so that that is also Greenwich meantime? - Yes.
Now take the next one, the 'Amerika." Can you find me a message sent out by the "Amerika" on the morning of the 14th April? It begins: "West-bound steamers report bergs, growlers, and field ice"? - (After looking.) No, I have not got that.
I will come back to that, although we have really had this one proved by Captain Barr. But it is convenient to have it on record? - Have you got the time there?
Yes, nine o'clock in the morning of the 14th April. I am taking them in the order of time? - We have not got it here.
The Solicitor-General: The gentleman who is giving his evidence so clearly did not know he was going to be asked this particular question, so that it is not his fault, my Lord. That one has been proved independently, and we can pass from it for the moment, I think. Let me see if I can help you about the next one. The next one in the order of time is the "Amerika."
The Commissioner: That is the German steamer.
(The Solicitor-General.) Yes. (To the Witness.) Have you the one from the "Amerika"? - Yes, but the "Amerika" did not send this direct to the "Titanic."
I am going to get you to tell me about that. First of all, you have got the message from the "Amerika." To whom is the message addressed? - It is addressed to the Hydrographic Office, Washington, and it is sent through the "Titanic."
The Commissioner: It is sent from the "Titanic," did you say?
(The Solicitor-General.) No, my Lord, through the "Titanic." We will show why he says so. (To the Witness.) What is the date of it? - 14th April.
And you say it is sent from the "Amerika"? - It is sent from the "Amerika."
I will just read it, and then I am going to ask you why you say it is sent through the "Titanic": "No. 110, 'Amerika' Office, 14th April, 1912. - Prefix M.S.G." That is master navigation message. "Service instructions: Via Cape Race. Office sent to M.G.V."* What does that mean? - Those are the call letters for one of our ship stations.
"Time sent, 11.45 a.m." Is that right? - Yes, 11.45 a.m.
"To Hydrographic Office, Washington D. C. 'Amerika' passed two large icebergs in 41.27 N., 50.8 W. on the 14th of April. - Knuth." Just explain, will you, why you say that went through the "Titanic"? - The "Amerika" was on her homeward route on that date, and was just about 40º West. The "Titanic" was a little further towards America.
Further west? - Further west, and much nearer the coast stations, the "Amerika" being out of the range of the coast stations and the "Titanic" being within range of the coast stations within a few hours and that was a much more rapid route of transmitting the message.
Could the "Amerika," from its then position have sent that message straight to Cape Race? - Evidently not, otherwise she would not have re-transmitted it.
How do you know she re-transmitted it; what is there to show it? - We have nothing to show. We must await the returns from Cape Race.
We want to be very careful about this. - It was sent to the "Titanic" for re-transmission.
How do you know it was? - Because we have the acknowledgment of the receipt.
That is the answer. Will you read the acknowledgment of the receipt then? - I am sorry; I am unprepared as to that. You will have to give me a little more time.
The Solicitor-General: Then, my Lord, I think it will be more satisfactory to adjourn now.
(The Commissioner.) Yes. (To the Witness.) And between now and tomorrow morning you will be able, perhaps, to get the papers for us? - Yes, my Lord.

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Wreck Commissioners' Court.

SCOTTISH HALL,

BUCKINGHAM GATE,

Wednesday, 22nd May, 1912.

PROCEEDINGS

WIITH

THE RIGHT HON. LORD MERSEY,

Wreck Commissioner of the United Kingdom,

WITH

REAR ADMIRAL THE HON. S. A. GOUGH-CALTHORPE, C.V.O., R.N.,

CAPTAIN A. W. CLARKE,

COMMANDER F. C. A. LYON, R.N.R.,

PROFESSOR J. H. BILES, LL.D., D.Sc.,

MR. E. C. CHASTON, R.N.R.

Acting as Assessors.

ON A FORMAL INVESTIGATION

ORDERED BY THE BOARD OF TRADE INTO THE

LOSS OF THE S. S. "TITANIC."

THIRTEENTH DAY.

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HERBERT JOHN PITMAN, Sworn.

Examined by Mr. BUTLER ASPINALL.

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Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

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Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

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Examined by Mr. HOLMES.

Examined by Mr. COTTER.

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Examined by Mr. LAING.

Re-examined by Mr. BUTLER ASPINALL.

(The Witness withdrew.)

JOSEPH GROVES BOXHALL, Sworn.

Examined by Mr. RAYMOND ASQUITH.

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Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

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Examined by Mr. ROCHE.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

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Examined by Mr. HOLMES.

Examined by Mr. COTTER.

Examined by Mr. LEWIS.

Examined by Mr. LAING.

(After a short adjournment.)

Re-examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL.

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(The Witness withdrew.)

HAROLD GODFREY LOWE, Sworn.

Examined by Mr. ROWLATT.

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Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

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Examined by Mr. HOLMES.

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Examined by Mr. COTTER.

Examined by Sir ROBERT FINLAY.

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(The Witness withdrew.)

GEORGE ELLIOTT TURNBULL, Sworn.

Examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL.

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(Adjourned to tomorrow at 10.30 o'clock.)