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Wreck Commissioners' Court.

SCOTTISH HALL,

BUCKINGHAM GATE,

Monday, 20th May, 1912.

PROCEEDINGS

WIITH

THE RIGHT HON. LORD MERSEY,

Wreck Commissioner of the United Kingdom,

WITH

REAR ADMIRAL THE HON. S. A. GOUGH-CALTHORPE, C.V.O., R.N.,

CAPTAIN A. W. CLARKE,

COMMANDER F. C. A. LYON, R.N.R.,

PROFESSOR J. H. BILES, LL.D., D.Sc.,

MR. E. C. CHASTON, R.N.R.

Acting as Assessors.

ON A FORMAL INVESTIGATION

ORDERED BY THE BOARD OF TRADE INTO THE

LOSS OF THE S. S. "TITANIC."

ELEVENTH DAY.

THE RIGHT HON. SIR RUFUS ISAACS, K.C., M.P. (Attorney-General), SIR JOHN SIMON, K.C., M.P. (Solicitor-General), MR. BUTLER ASPINAL, K.C., MR. S. A. T. ROWLATT and MR. RAYMOND ASQUITH (instructed by SIR R. ELLIS CUNLIFFE, Solicitor to the Board of Trade) appeared as Counsel on behalf of the Board of Trade.

THE RIGHT HON. SIR ROBERT FINLAY, K.C., M.P., MR. P. LAING, K.C., MR. MAURICE HILL., K.C., and MR. NORMAN RAEBURN (instructed by Messrs. Hill, Dickinson and Co.), appeared as counsel on behalf of the White Star line.

MR. THOMAS SCANLAN, M.P. (instructed by Mr. Smith, Solicitor), appeared as Counsel on behalf of the National Sailors’ and Firemen’s Union of Great Britain and Ireland and of the personal representatives of several deceased members of the crew and of survivors who were members of the Union. (Admitted On application.)

MR. B0TTERELL (instructed by Messrs. Botterell and Roche) appeared on behalf of the Chamber of Shipping of the United Kingdom. (Admitted on application.)

MR. THOMAS LEWIS appeared on behalf of the British Seafarers’ Union. (Admitted on application.)

MR. L. S. HOLMES (of Messrs. Miller, Taylor and Holmes, of Liverpool) appeared on behalf of the Imperial Merchant Service Guild. (Admitted on application.)

MR. COTTER appeared on behalf of the National Union of Stewards. (Admitted on application.)

MR. HAMAR GREENWOOD, M.P. (instructed by Messrs. Pritchard and Sons), watched proceedings on behalf of the Allan Line Steamship Company.

MR. HAMAR GREENWOOD, M.P. (instructed by Messrs. William A. Crump and Son), watched proceedings for the Canadian Pacific Railway Company.

MR. ROCHE (instructed by Messrs. Charles G. Bradshaw and Waterson) appeared on behalf of the Marine Engineers’ Association. (Admitted on application.)

MR. A. CLEMENT EDWARDS. M.P., (instructed by Messrs. Helder, Roberts and Co.), appeared as Counsel on behalf of the Dock, Wharf, Riverside, and General Workers Union of Great Britain and Ireland. (Admitted on application.)

MR. W. D. HARBINSON (instructed by Mr. Farrell) appeared on behalf of the third-class passengers. (Admitted on application.)

MR. ROBERTSON DUNLOP watched the proceedings on behalf of the owners and officers of the s.s. “Californian.” (Leyland Line). (Admitted on Application.)

MR. H. E. DUKE, K. C., M. P., and MR. VAUGHAN WILIAMS (instructed by Messrs. A. F. and R. W. Tweedie) appeared as Counsel on behalf of Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon. (Admitted on Application.)

Page 282

Sir COSMO DUFF-GORDON, Continued.

Further examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

  1. (The Attorney-General.) There are two questions I want to put to Sir Cosmo. (To the Witness.) I notice from what you said in your evidence (I am referring to question 12586, my Lord), that there was this conversation between you and the men, or one of the men, that you would give them a present of £5 each, and that was made, as I follow from what you have told us, quite early in the history of this boat. I want to ask you just a little about the time; I want to follow quite clearly when it was. Was it before or after the boat had gone back to try to pick up people? - I did not know about the boat going back.
    The Commissioner: What is the going back you are referring to?
  2. (The Attorney-General.) Your Lordship remembers Symons’ evidence, I will refer you to it. I will put a question to him which I think will bring it to your Lordship’s mind. (To the Witness.) According to you then the boat never went back? - No, I do not know where we were rowing about to.
  3. When I say went back - it never went to try to pick up some of the people who might be drowning from the “Titanic”? - No, I did not know of it.
    The Commissioner: Where is Symons’ evidence?
    The Attorney-General: I will tell your Lordship the effect of his evidence. What he said was they did not go back when they heard the cries, but they rowed away, but that some time after they did go back. And then your Lordship put a question to him “But then the cries had ceased,” and he said “Yes.”
    The Commissioner: I remember that. That did not seem to me to be a going back that was of the least importance.
  4. (The Attorney-General.) No, but that is what he did. Your Lordship will remember I cross-examined him upon his statements in America where he was asked whether he did go back when he heard the cries and when he said yes. I pointed out then that that was very different from the evidence he had given here and he admitted that it was. It is question 11561, page 258, where I put to him the question, “Did you ever go back to try to pick up any of these people.” He said, “Yes, after we rowed a little way, as we were going for this self-same light of my first story, we stopped; we laid on our oars. Then I gave the order to pull back, and told the men in the boat we would pull back to the other boats.” Did you hear that? - To pull back to the other boats? Do you mean that he said so?
  5. Yes. - I did not hear him.
  6. An order given by him to the men that were rowing? - I did not hear the order, no.
  7. “I was going my way back then as near as I possibly could to the scene of the disaster after we met the other boat. I strained my ears to hear whether I could hear anybody, any person whatever making a cry. (The Commissioner.) And you heard no one? - (A.) I heard no one. (Q.) They were all drowned by that time; is not that so? - (A.) I could not say that, sir, because there were some picked up in a boat out of the water before daylight, according to the other story. Of course, I cannot say about other people.” Then your Lordship will remember at the end, I put to him very definitely what he had said in America. That is at page 262. The particular passage bearing upon this is at page 263, Question 11749 - “Then you were asked whether you made any effort to get there, that is the people from whom you heard the cries? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) It is pointed out to you that you had said your boat could take more? - (A.) Yes, I did say so.” I am putting to him that what his answer was in America. “Your answer to that is, “Yes, we came back, but when we came back we did not see anybody nor hear anybody.’ - (A.) That is quite right.” Then I put to him: “Why did not you tell him what you have told us today, that you heard the cries, but in the exercise of your discretion and as master of the situation you had determined not to go back because you thought you might be swamped? Why did not you tell them that? - (A.) My idea of the whole concern was that they had us in three at a time in America - that you have not got there, I expect - to get us through as quick as possible.” He says he agrees that is not the same account as is given here; he left that out. That is the point I was on. (To the Witness.) What I want to know is whether you can assist us upon that at all. Did you know any effort was made to pick up people who might be drowning? - No, I did not.
  8. So far as you were concerned there was no attempt of any kind to pick up drowning people? - No; I did not know that the idea had arisen to go back at all.
  9. Of course if Symons is giving a correct account it would appear that orders were given there which you do not recollect? - Yes.
  10. Because he told the men to pull -
    Mr. Duke: He says he did not hear it, not that he does not recollect it.
    The Attorney-General: We will hear what he says about it. If my friend is drawing a distinction between what he did not hear and what he did not recollect, it is a little fine for me. (To the Witness.) I suggest to you if a man is speaking and you are there and he is giving orders to the men who are rowing in the boat there was no difficulty in your hearing; but it made no impression on your mind and you do not recollect it? - Yes, I do not; I did not hear it.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

  1. Did you hear the order given when other boats on the starboard side were being lowered that women and children were to be first? - I do not know whether I heard the order, but I knew it was the orders.
  2. And that only women and children were getting in in any large numbers? - In much greater numbers, yes - few men.
  3. I suppose from the conversation amongst the passengers and the conversation you had had with officers you had become aware that the lifeboats did not offer accommodation for more than half the passengers and crew? - No, I did not know anything about it. I had not spoken to any officer or to passengers on that subject.
  4. That rule with regard to women and children was observed with regard to all the boats launched from the starboard side that you saw launched? - Yes, the three forward ones.
  5. With the exception of the one boat in which you left yourself? - No, the boat before that had, I think, a few women in, and they filled up with men passengers.
  6. But the boat in which you left was clearly an exception to that rule? - No, no exception at all. The woman who had been present had all gone in the three lifeboats.
  7. Could you see from your position on the starboard side how many women were on the port side? - No, I could see nothing at all of the port side.
  8. So that as far as your knowledge went at the time there might have been a large number of women on the port side waiting for boat accommodation in the lifeboats? - It is possible, of course.
  9. I think you asked the officer on the boat deck if he would allow you to go away in this No. 1 boat? - I said to him, “Can we go there,” I think.
  10. Of course, the ladies were invited to go? - The ladies were not invited to go. The ladies had been invited to go to two or three previous boats and they refused to go absolutely. Then all the ladies had embarked, every one that was visible, and I found myself suddenly in front, this boat being manned by some stokers.

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12612. That request of yours applied, of course, only to yourself? - I did not consider it a request at all; I merely saw an empty boat, and I had two ladies with me, and I said, “May we go in that boat?” 12613. Could you see from your position on the boat deck at No. 1 whether the after boats on the starboard side had all been lowered? - No, I could not see; I could only see that section. (pointing to the model.) 12614. Could you see from that position close to No. 1 whether there were passengers along the boat deck at the afterend of it? - No; my impression was that there were no passengers as far as I could see. 12615. You said, in giving your evidence on Friday, that all the women in your part of the ship had gone? - Yes. 12616. Did you mean the women who were first class passengers? - I did not know what class passengers they were. There were a certain number of women outside the gymnasium door, and they had all been taken off. I do not know what class they were in the least. 12617. You did not even know whether there were other women on the boat deck on the opposite side or further aft who were waiting for accommodation in the boats? - No, I knew nothing of that sort. 12618. Under those circumstances, you asked permission for yourself to go in? The Commissioner: That is not quite accurate. He asked if he might go. Perhaps that is only a distinction without a difference. Mr. Scanlan: I see that, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Do you recollect who was the officer in charge at the launching of lifeboat No. 1? - I did not know till, I think, two days ago. Mr. Duke: It was not a lifeboat, Mr. Scanlan; it was the emergency boat. Mr. Scanlan: We have known it since this Enquiry commenced as a lifeboat. The Attorney-General: No. Mr. Duke: If my friend insists for his own purposes in calling this boat by a wrong name, I can only protest against it. The Commissioner: I think Mr. Scanlan has been very fair so far, and I do not think he is unfair at the present. 12618. (Mr. Scanlan - To the Witness.) With regard to this emergency boat, if Mr. Duke prefers you know now, do you, the name of the officer who was in charge when it was being manned? - Yes, I believe so. 12619. Who is he? - I think it is the fifth officer. 12620. Is that Mr. Lowe? - Yes, I think it is. If Mr. Lowe is in Court perhaps he will be willing to be identified? The Commissioner: Is Mr. Lowe here? The Attorney-General: He will be here; I do not know whether he is here at the moment. (Mr. Lowe stood up in the Court.) 12621. (Mr. Scanlan - To the Witness.) Is that the officer? - I could not say; it was dark. I did not know it was he. I said I was told so two days ago. 12622. Of your own knowledge you do not know? - Of my own knowledge I can say nothing. 12623. Just as your party was about to embark on that boat did you hear the officer say, “Are you ready, Lady Gordon?”? - No. 12624. Did you have any conversation with the officer? - Nothing, except what I told you. 12625. Did he know who you were? - Not the least - at least, I do not know whether he knew me; I did not know him. 12626. I suppose most of the officers would know you? - No, not one of them. 12627. You are a frequent traveler? - I have never been across the Atlantic in that way before in my life. 12628. Did you see Mr. Ismay on the boat deck? - No, I did not. 12629. Did you know him? - No. 12630. So that you would not be able to recognise him? - Yes, I should have been then, because I had seen him at dinner that night. 12631. Did you see the captain that night? - Yes; it was the only time I did see him, I think. 12632. (The Commissioner.) Was the captain dining with Mr. Ismay? - No, my Lord; Mr. Ismay was dining alone with Dr. McLaughlin. [O’Loughlin] 12633. Is that right Mr. Ismay was dining alone? - Alone with Dr. McLaughlin. [O’Loughlin] 19634. I mean with one other man? - Yes. 12635. He was not giving a dinner party? - No, he was dining quite alone with Dr. McLaughlin [O’Loughlin]. I was three or four tables off. The reason why I ask that question is that I have had sent to me by some lady, who says that her husband was drowned in this calamity, what is called a “menu” of a dinner given, as it is alleged, by Mr. Bruce Ismay. What it has to do with this Inquiry I am quite at a loss to know, but I do not believe myself that it is a menu of any dinner he gave at all. The Attorney-General: At a later stage we shall call Mr. Bruce Ismay before your Lordship. 12636. (The Commissioner.) It is quite possible, I believe that this thing which was published in some French paper was a list of the dishes that could be had. It is a very common thing on board a ship to publish each day a list of dishes from which you can select? - Yes. 12637. However, you say Mr. Bruce Ismay was not giving any dinner? - None. 12638. Certainly not to the captain? - No, he was alone. 12639. (Mr. Scanlan.) Now, did you see the captain at dinner that night? - I do not know, I saw him just after dinner just outside. 12640. (Mr. Scanlan.) May I ask this question, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Was the captain in uniform when you saw him? - Yes. 12641. Or in evening dress? Was he in uniform or evening dress? - I think he was in evening uniform. 12642. Has your attention been called to what purports to be an article written and signed by Lady Duff-Gordon in the “Daily News” for April 20th? - I have seen it, I think; yes - at least, I have not seen that in the English papers; I saw one in the American papers. 12643. Have you seen an article by her in the “New York American”? - Yes, it was not by her, but I have seen what you mean. 12644. Do you know whether or not this is authentic? - If you tell me what it is about I could answer better. 12645. I will hand it to you. It is in the second column. (Handing a paper to the Witness.) It appears to be signed at the bottom you will observe. It is a single column article by Lady Duff-Gordon. The Commissioner: What is the purport of it, Mr. Scanlan? Mr. Scanlan:. There are a good many things in it. The Commissioner: Have they any bearing on this Enquiry? Mr. Scanlan: Yes, considerable. The Commissioner: Because you know the whole of this incident to my mind has only a small bearing on this Enquiry and I do not want too much time spent over it. Mr. Scanlan: I quite see that, my Lord. The Commissioner: Can you tell me what this article is? Mr. Scanlan: There are statements in it as to icebergs having been pointed out before the collision occurred to Lady Duff-Gordon by officers on board the “Titanic.” The Commissioner: I think that is quite relevant. Mr. Duke: I may tell Mr. Scanlan I am going to ask your Lordship’s leave to call Lady Duff-Gordon whether anybody else calls her or not. The Commissioner: I think it is not necessary. Of course, if you want it done, Mr. Duke. Mr. Duke: Most urgently, both Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon think it is essential it should be done. The Commissioner: Very well, then it shall be done.

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The Attorney-General: I had already communicated with my friend Mr. Duke about it and I told him what my view of it was; but of course my friend said he desired Lady Duff-Gordon called and there is an end of it. We shall call her. My friend is quite entitled to ask that. The Commissioner: If she wants to go into the witness-box, she must go. Mr. Duke: The position in which she is put by some of the insinuations is intolerable to a woman who believes that she has done all she should have done under the circumstances. The Commissioner: I have not heard that she did anything that was at all different from what any other lady would do. Mr. Scanlan: I respectfully disclaim any intention of making any insinuation. Mr. Duke: We shall see. Mr. Scanlan: (To the Witness.) Is it your evidence that while the cries of the drowning - The Commissioner: No; do not let us depart from this point which I said might be relevant. (To the Witness.) Is it the fact that Lady Duff-Gordon had icebergs pointed out to her by officers of the ship before the calamity as far as you know? - No; it was not the case, my Lord. 12646. Did she ever write anything to that effect? - So far as I know Lady Duff-Gordon wrote nothing whatever in America. Mr. Scanlan: I do not wish to press this any further. Mr. Duke: I think your Lordship ought to know about this. I have looked at it. This is a column of matter in large type purporting to be signed by Lady Duff-Gordon, and said to be a series of statements by Lady Duff-Gordon. The Commissioner: Tell me Mr. Duke does the lady repudiate having written it. Mr. Duke: Absolutely, my Lord. 12647. (Mr. Scanlan - To the Witness.) Is it your evidence that while the cries of the drowning people were heard after the “Titanic” sank there was no conversation whatever between you and your fellow passengers or between you and the members of the crew? - I said that after the “Titanic” sank there was a dead silence. 12648. When the people were crying out for help were you all mute in the boat? - I think as soon as that occurred the men began to row at once. 12649. (The Commissioner.) And, as I understand, to row away from the cries? - I presume so, my Lord; I did not know which way. 12650. (Mr. Scanlan.) You made a suggestion in your evidence as a reason for not taking more people in the boat that there would have been more room if the oars and sails had been put away? - Yes. 12651. As a practical man you knew that it would be very easy to put the oars and sails away and take in people? - As a practical man, I must say I did not think anything about it. The Commissioner: This does not help you much. It is admitted there was plenty of room in the boat for more people. The Witness: I did not know it at the time, my Lord. I admitted that I know now that there was. The Attorney-General: If that is the effect of Sir Cosmo’s evidence up to now, it is news to me; it is news to me to hear Sir Cosmo say he did not think there was any room. I thought his evidence showed that there was some. The Commissioner: I certainly understood so. Examined by Mr. HARBINSON. 12653. Had you, during the course of that voyage after you left Queenstown, been in conversation at all with Mr. Ismay? - No, I had never spoken to him in my life. 12654. Do you know, after the impact, if any general alarm was sounded to give the passengers warning? - I believe not; I did not hear it. 12655. You did not hear it? - No; I heard nothing. 12656. Did you know that a message had been received from the “Carpathia”? - No. 12657. You did not hear so? - No. 12658. Saying she was coming to the aid of the “Titanic”? - No. 12659. Do I rightly understand you to say that 20 minutes after you got into the boat, that is after the boat had been launched - The Commissioner: Have we heard of any message from the “Carpathia” received by the “Titanic” to the effect that the “Carpathia” was coming to the “Titanic’s” aid? The Attorney-General: I think you will hear something; but I do not think you have. We have had some messages. Yes, my Lord, there is one. I remember one of those read out by my friend the Solicitor-General when we were taking the Marconi operator. It is page 213. There is nothing definite. I think the particular passage you want is this question, 9459, page 211: “I have got down here ‘Titanic’ still calling C.Q.D., is answered by the ‘Carpathia,’ and says: Struck iceberg; come to our assistance,’ sends the position.” That is the first. Then later on you get “The ‘Carpathia’ sends to the ‘Titanic.’” We have got the whole series of messages, your Lordship will remember, but I do not think there is a definite message saying the ‘Carpathia’ is coming to the assistance of the “Titanic.” The Commissioner: I do not remember it. The Attorney-General: I think your Lordship will hear about it. Sir Robert Finlay: It is later, but I think it is after the “Titanic” sunk. Mr. Duke: That is so. The Attorney-General: I am not sure that you have that at all. Sir Robert Finlay: Yes, on page 214, but it is quite immaterial, because it was after the ship had gone down. 12660. (Mr. Harbinson - To the Witness.) Did I rightly understand you on Friday to say that about 20 minutes after the “Titanic” sank, while you were in the boat, was the time when the conversation with reference to the presents took place? - Something of that sort; 20 minutes or half an hour, I should fancy. 12661. That was while those scenes, which we have heard described so often to us, took place and harrowing cries could be distinctly heard by you? - Oh, no. The Commissioner: Why do you assume that? Mr. Harbinson: I will put it in the form of a question, Was it? The Commissioner: There is no evidence to that effect. It is very irregular to assume facts that are not proved. Mr. Harbinson: At question 12586 Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon says: “I suppose it would be some time when they rested on their oars, 20 minutes or half an hour after the ‘Titanic’ had sunk, a man said to me, ‘I suppose you have lost everything.’“ The Commissioner: Yes, but consider the gloss you put upon the thing. You say that this conversation was taking place while the cries were still being heard. Now where is the statement to that effect? Mr. Harbinson: It is in evidence that they heard the cries 20 minutes after the “Titanic” sank. There is evidence that the cries lasted for an hour and a half, and if they did they were audible 20 minutes afterwards. The Commissioner: Where is that? Mr. Harbinson: One of the witnesses on Friday. The Commissioner: I am talking about this witness. Your duty is to assist me. Mr. Harbinson: Yes, I am anxious to do so. The Commissioner: Not to try to make out a case for this class or that class or another class, but to assist me in arriving at the truth; and you do not do it by trying to make out a case against one person or another; it does not help me a bit.

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12662. (Mr. Harbinson.) I understand, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Did you hear the cries 20 minutes after the “Titanic” sank? -No, I cannot tell you at all about that. 12663. You cannot remember? - I do not think anything like that. 12664. You do not? - I do not think so; I cannot say. The men were rowing a great deal. 12665. Did you tell them to row to drown the cries? - No. Mr. Duke: I appeal to your Lordship with regard to that question, and that class of question. The learned gentleman asks Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon, “Did you appeal to them to row to drown the cries?” The ordinary rule of practice, as I understand, is that unless you have evidence which will warrant a gross imputation you do not make it by a question. The Commissioner: Yes, but the ordinary rules of practice do not always apply. Perhaps they ought to, but they do not. Mr. Duke: I am aware your Lordship has not the same control here which a judge in Court would have. At any rate, among members of the Bar it is usual to observe that rule. The Commissioner: I will do my best to see the thing is fairly put. Mr. Duke: I am obliged to your Lordship. 12666. (Mr. Harbinson - To the Witness.) Was not this rather an exceptional time, 20 minutes after the “Titanic” sank, to make suggestions in the boat about giving away £5 notes? - No, I think not. I think it was a most natural time. Everything was quiet; the men had stopped rowing the men were quite quiet lying on their oars doing nothing for some time, and then the ship having gone I think it was a natural enough remark for a man to make to me, “I suppose you have lost everything?” 12667. Would it not have been more in harmony with the traditions of seamanship that that should have been the time that you should have suggested to the sailors to have gone and tried if they could rescue any one? - I have said that I did not consider the possibility - or rather I should put it the possibility of being able to help anybody never occurred to me at all. 12668. That is to say would I accurately state your position if I summed it up in this way, that you considered when you were safe yourselves that all the others might perish? - No, that is not quite the way to put it. The Commissioner: Do you think a question of that kind is fair to this witness. The witness’s position is bad enough. Do you think it is fair to put a question of that kind to him? I do not. 12669. (Mr. Harbinson.) If your Lordship says so I will not pursue it any further. (To the Witness.) Did you hear any lady in the boat make any protest against the boat going back? - No. 12670. There were only two ladies in the boat, of course? - Yes. 12671. Had you any conversation with Lady Duff-Gordon? - I spoke to her several times. 12672. About the time had you any conversation with Lady Duff-Gordon with reference to an attempt to rescue any other people? - I have said that the question did not arise in the boat. 12673. What was the nature of the conversation you had with Lady Duff-Gordon? - Simply hoping she was a little better, and so on. I was merely talking to her in a quiet way like that, saying nothing that I could possibly remember or repeat. 12674. Did you see the lights in the ship that we have heard so much about? - We followed what we thought to be a fishing boat or a sailing boat for a considerable time at starting. 12675. Were you following those lights at the time the “Titanic” sank? - I think we were. We were going in that direction. 12676. Did you hear, on Friday, Horswill say that at the time the “Titanic” sank you were rowing towards those lights? - I did not hear him say so, but - 12677. Would you think it would be true if he did? - I should think quite likely. 12678. Had you heard the officer who was in control at the time No. 1 emergency boat was lowered give instructions that the boat should remain within a certain distance of the sinking liner? - No, I did not hear that. I said so, I think. 12679. Would it be right to say that from the moment you got into the emergency boat the boat proceeded away from the “Titanic” and in the direction of those lights? - I cannot say that. You see, it was pitch dark; when I say pitch dark there were stars, but it was complete darkness, and I did not know which way we were rowing. 12680. Did you hear any instructions given in the boat as to the direction which this boat should take? - In what boat? 12681. The emergency boat? - Did I hear it in the emergency boat? 12682. Yes? - No, I heard no instructions at all. By whom? 12683. By any person? - In the boat? 12684. Yes? - No. 12685. Did you hear any suggestions made? - What about? 12686. By any members of the crew or any of the passengers in the emergency boat to the coxswain as to the direction the boat should take? - No, I do not think I did. There was one man, one of the passengers called out two or three times, “Let us go that way,” “let us go the other;” but I do not think any notice was taken of it. 12687. “Let us go that way and let us go the other”? - I heard him through the night. 12688. Now we have it that a suggestion was actually made in the boat after the boat was lowered as to the direction in which the boat should go? - No, I cannot say it was a suggestion. The man said “There is a light there; go after that.” I think no attention was paid to him at all. 12689. Was this a suggestion made by the man in the bow of the boat? - No, it was not; he was not in the bow of the boat. 12690. Where was the man sitting who made the suggestion? - The man who kept calling out those things? 12691. Yes, as to the direction that the boat should go? - Where was he sitting? 12692. Yes? - He was sitting two seats in front of me, he was sitting in the seat nearest the stern with his back to the stern; he was sitting facing. 12693. With his back to the stern? - Yes. 12694. Was that the man who was steering? - No. 12695. With his back to the stern? - He was sitting in the seat. 12696. With his back to the stern? - Yes. 12697. Was any reply made to that man when it was suggested going in a particular direction? - No, I think no notice was taken. 12698. Did you hear anything said? - No. 12699. You said nothing? - No. I said nothing. How do mean, I said nothing? 12700. Did you give no answer? - It was going on all night; it was not once he said it. 12701. Was an instruction given or did you hear anything said shortly after the “Titanic” went down? - No, I do not think anything was said then. 12702. Was it an answer to this suggestion of his as to the direction in which the boat should go that you said “I will give you a fiver”? - I really do not understand your question. You must put it plainly. 12703. Yes, I will put it quite distinctly. An instruction, or rather an observation was made by someone, that the emergency boat should go in a particular direction. Is not that so? - That was going on all the later part of the night by this man, yes, continually. 12704. Before the “Titanic” went down? - No, no, no. 12705. After the “Titanic” went down? - Yes, I really do not know, it seemed to be most of the time. He called “Boat ahoy,” and so on.

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12706. The question I put to you is this: When you first heard this observation made with reference to the direction in which this emergency boat should go, was it then, 20 minutes after the “Titanic” sank, that you suggested that you would give them a fiver each? - No, I see what you mean now. No, it was not; not in any connection with it. The man calling out to go this way and that had no effect, I think on anybody, nor on this subject at all. It had nothing to do with it. The Commissioner: If you will put your question plainly it would perhaps be understood better. Your question, as I understand it, really is this: “Did you promise a £5 note in order to induce the men in the boat to row away from the drowning people?” That is what you want to ask. Mr. Harbinson: That is the effect of it. The Commissioner: Well, why do you not put it in plain words. Examined by Mr. CLEMENT EDWARDS. 12707. As I understand, your version of what took place on the boat deck is this; that you and Lady Duff-Gordon were standing there for some time; that there was an attempt made to induce Lady Duff-Gordon to get into one of the three lifeboats; that she refused, and that you saw those three lifeboats lowered. Will you explain why Symons, the captain of your boat, states that just before the boat was lowered the two ladies rushed from the saloon deck by themselves and asked if they could get into the boat, and that then you and the two other men passengers rushed and also asked if you could get in? - No, it is quite incorrect, the whole thing. 12708. It is incorrect? - Yes. 12709. Symons has made a mistake if you are right? - I did not know he had said that, but I daresay. 12710. This is what Symons said at question 11454, on the 10th day, at page 256: “As he gave orders I” - that is Symons - “saw two ladies come running out of the foremost end of the top saloon deck, running towards the boat, and from there they asked Mr. Murdoch if they could get into that boat, and Mr. Murdoch said ‘Yes, jump in,’ and then, after that, I saw three gentlemen come running up, and they asked if they could get into the boat, and he said, ‘Yes, jump in.’” That is incorrect? - Yes, that is quite a wrong story altogether. 12711. When you were in the boat, when the “Titanic” had gone down, you were so absorbed in paying attention to your wife that you could not think whether you ought to go back to the drowning people or not? - Well, you may put it in that way. 12712. I do not want in the least bit to misrepresent you: I think that is the way in which you put it on Friday? - No; I do not think I put it like that, but I was naturally absorbed as you say. 12713. You were asked, “Did it occur to you that with the room in your boat, if you could get to these people you could save some? - (A.) It is difficult to say what occurred to me. Again, I was minding my wife, and we were rather in an abnormal condition, you know. There were many things to think about.”? - Yes. 12714. Does it occur to you that if it were perfectly natural, as you have said, to think of offering the sailors five pounds to replace their kit, it might have been equally natural, even though you were absorbed in your attentions to your wife, to think that there was some possibility of saving some of those poor people? - As I say, the possibility of being able to help I do not think occurred to anybody. 12715. Why do you suggest that it was more natural to think of offering men five pounds to replace their kit than to think of those screaming people who were drowning? - I do not suggest anything of the sort. 12716. Do you think it was natural then not to think of rescuing those people who were drowning? - It is a difficult question to answer if you put it like that. At the time I saw no possibility - I thought there was no possibility of doing so. 12717. I will put it. Do you still think that it was natural not to think about going back and saving some of those people? - I think it was still natural, but I concede that it would have been a very splendid thing if it could have been done. 12718. If it did not occur to you that you yourselves might go back with the few people in your boat, did it occur to you that you might have gone back to some of the other boats and put your passengers off so as to have had a free boat to do some rescuing? - No, it did not occur to me. 12719. That did not occur to you? - No. 12720. Did you come in sight of any of the other boats? - Not at that time, I think; one could hear them. 12721. What do you mean by that - you could hear them? - You could hear the oars moving all round us. 12722. Did you hail any other boat? - No, with the exception of what I said, that somebody said “Boat ahoy!” on many occasions. 12723. In your boat? - Yes. 12724. Is it not the fact that a man in charge of another boat hailed your boat? - No, not that I know of. 12725. Well, you know we have it here in evidence that the captain of one of the boats, No. 13, hailed your boat because he saw that there were very few people in it. You did not hear that hailing? - No, that is the first I have heard of it. 12726. Now, you have said that the first mention of this money was some 20 minutes or half an hour after the ship went down. Was it made to one or to two members of your boat’s crew? - I made it to the lot of them, of course. Can you explain why the man sitting alongside of you should come here and say that nothing was said about money until you got aboard the “Carpathia”? The Commissioner: I do not think you can ask this gentleman to account for the motives which induced other witnesses to make statements; you cannot inquire into that. 12727. (Mr. Clement Edwards.) Do you think there can be any doubt that the man who sat immediately alongside you heard your offer of £5? Do you think there can be any doubt? - No, none, of course. Examined by Mr. HOLMES. 12728. You have had some of the evidence of the witness Symons read out to you, in which reference was made to Mr. Murdoch. Did you see Mr. Murdoch on the deck that night? - I did not know any one of the officers by sight at all. I know none. 12729. Did you see the captain anywhere about when your boat was lowered? - No. 12730. After your boat had left the ship did you hear any orders given by megaphone? - No. 12731. Did you hear anything said about gangways as your boat was being lowered? - No, I heard nothing. 12732. Had you seen the people being put into boats No. 5 and No. 3? - I had not seen them, because I was leaning at the back of the crowd. I was leaning against the deckhouse, but I knew they were being put in. 12733. Was there some difficulty in getting them to go into the boat? - I could not see that. 12734. Could you see whether anyone had to be forced to go into the boat? - No, I could see none of them. I was standing right back. 12735. But so far as you could see there were no people left on that deck, in fact, at the time when you got into the boat? - No, except a few of the crew. 12736. The crew who were lowering the boat? - Yes.

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Examined by Mr. COTTER. 12737. Have you seen the evidence of the witness Hendrickson? - Yes. 12738. When Hendrickson states that he suggested you should go back, did you hear that? - No. 12739. You did not hear him make that suggestion? - No. 12740. And he states that Lady Duff-Gordon objected to go back; is that true or untrue? - It is untrue. What do you mean? Will you say it again? 12741. He said he suggested that they should go back and try to save somebody? - Yes. 12742. And he also said that Lady Duff-Gordon objected and said the boat would be swamped, and he also stated that you upheld Lady Duff-Gordon’s objection. Is that true or untrue? - It is not true. 12743. Do you know the man Taylor? - Yes. 12744. He sat next to you in the boat? - Apparently; I do not know that yet. 12745. He states he sat next to you in the boat? - Yes. 12746. And you had a conversation with him in the boat? - Did I? 12747. He said so? - I think I had a conversation with the man next to me. Taylor said he did not have a conversation of the sort with me. 12748. Taylor admits he had a conversation with you? - Here? 12749. Yes, here? - Oh, I was referring rather to this conversation about the £5 note. 12750. What I am trying to point out is this: Taylor was the man who sat next to you? - Was he? 12751. Yes? - I daresay I cannot say; it was pitch dark; I cannot say at all. 12752. He knew you, if you did not know him? - He said he did not, I remember. 12753. Yes, he said he knew you at the time. He did not know Lady Duff-Gordon until afterwards. She was pointed out to him, and now he knows her? - Oh! He states he heard her say that the boat would be swamped if it went back. The Commissioner: He said he did not know who it was. Mr. Cotter: But later he did, my Lord. The Commissioner: Then he gave two inconsistent answers, because I read here “was there anybody else on the same thwart as you? - (A.) Yes, a gentleman passenger. (Q.) You would not know at the time, but do you know now who it was? - (A.) No. (Q.) Do you know now it was Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon? - (A.) I understand it is that gentleman now, but I did not think at the time.” You should be careful not to assume that people said things when in fact they did not say them. Mr. Cotter: I have it here, my Lord. The Commissioner: Then will you read it. Mr. Cotter: At page 272, question 12250, I asked, “Who was seasick” and the reply was “Lady Duff-Gordon.” The Commissioner: Yes. Mr. Cotter: And I asked him then, “How do you know it was Lady Duff-Gordon; you have told us you do not know her? - (A.) I told that gentleman there (pointing) that I was told afterwards that it was Lady Duff-Gordon. (Q.) You were told afterwards it was? - (A.) Yes, I told that gentleman there. (Q.) Was that the lady who objected to the boat going back? - (A.) The lady that spoke of its being swamped. (Q.) Was that the lady? - (A.) Yes.” The Commissioner: Your statement to this witness was that he knew Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon when he was in the boat, and he did not. He says he did not. I am talking about Taylor. Mr. Cotter: Taylor knows now it was. The Commissioner: Yes, but that is a very different thing from knowing it when he was in the boat. 12754. (Mr. Cotter.) When Taylor states that Lady Duff-Gordon made that statement it is untrue? - Yes. Examined by Mr. LEWIS. 12755. You said in your evidence you were watching the “Titanic” until she sank, is that so? - Well, practically so, yes. 12756. And there was dead silence? - I cannot hear you. 12757. And there was dead silence when she went down? - There was silence when she went down, yes. 12758. Could you hear cries very distinctly? - No, not very distinctly. 12759. Might cries have lasted for an hour? - I do not think so at all. 12760. Were you close enough to hear anyone say there “My God, my God”? - No; that you have taken no doubt out of that story. 12761. This I take from the “Evening Herald”? - It is in the same story; I remember the words. 12762. I am not quite clear as to your answer to Mr. Cotter or Mr. Edwards as to the approach of the lifeboats. Did you see the other boats or merely hear them rowing after the “Titanic” had sunk? - I said we heard boats round us. 12763. Could you hear them rowing? - You could hear a boat rowing, yes. 12764. Supposing anyone had hailed that boat, could you have heard? - That I cannot say. The Commissioner: Could he have done what? 12765. (Mr. Lewis.) Could he have heard if anyone had hailed the boat? - I should think so. 12766. I understand you to say you did not hear anybody say, “We are full up” on your boat? - I have not heard that remark at all yet - about being full up. 12767. Did you hear any other remark, such as “Do not go near that boat, they might jump on ours”? - No, I do not think so. When was this? I do not know when you are talking about. 12768. I am talking about after the “Titanic” had gone down, and you were rowing about in your boat. I suggest you were approached by other boats? - We approached one other boat just before we sighted the “Carpathia.” It was early morning. Before it was light we came up close to it. We saw it, and very naturally rowed towards it to keep company, so as not to be left, and there was a conversation between a man in our boat and one of the crew in their boat. He called out “Who have you got there,” and he answered and said whom had he got there. 12769. You do not remember being hailed and asked if you had room in that boat for more? - No, no, no; we were not, certainly. 12770. And you do not remember anyone saying “Do not go near the boat they might jump on ours”? - No, I do not think so. The Commissioner: Is this all out of some newspaper? Mr. Lewis: No, my Lord. Examined by Mr. DUKE. Mr. Duke: I think there is no one else to cross-examine? The Commissioner: No. 12771. (Mr. Duke - To the Witness.) I shall not ask you many questions, Sir Cosmo. I will ask you first of all with regard to those reports which were set on foot in America. Were there great numbers of them? - Yes, there were. 12772. And did you see many of them? - Yes. 12773. So far as you saw were they true or were they inventions? - They were all inventions. 12774. Did they report interviews with Lady Duff-Gordon? - Yes. 12775. Did you know whether they had taken place or not? - I knew they had not. 12776. You have been asked a great many questions

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today to which I think you have said that that was what was said in those papers? - Yes. 12777. Now I come back to the real matter. First of all, will you bring your mind as closely as you can to the time before the emergency boat was launched? - Yes. 12778. How many lifeboats were launched in your presence? - Three. 12779. Had Lady Duff-Gordon an offer and pressure put upon her to go in each of those boats? - In each or in two of them - I am not sure. 12780. Two you know of? - Two I remember perfectly. 12781. And did she refuse to go? - She absolutely refused. 12782. Had Miss Francatelli the offer to go in each of those boats? - Yes, on each occasion. 12783. Did she refuse? - Yes, I asked her to go. 12784. And did you press your wife to go? - No, I did not press her to go. 12785. A conversation took place between you and her? - Yes. 12786. Now it is suggested, you know - perhaps you do not know - that there was some arrangement between the captain and Mr. Ismay and you by which a boat was to be put at your service. Is there a scrap of foundation for that? - No. 12787. Had you ever had any conversation with Mr. Ismay? - No. 12788. Down to the time this ship sank? - Never at all in my life, I have not. 12789. Had you any conversation with the captain? - Never. 12790. Was there any suggestion from you to anybody that either you or your wife or Miss Francatelli should be provided for in any boat up to the time you asked the officer of the boat if you might go in? - Never. 12791. Then it was suggested that Mrs. Astor was on board this boat. Is there any foundation for that at all in any way? - None. 12792. Did you know anything as to the boat in which Mrs. Astor had gone? - No, I did not. 12793. Just one question more with regard to all these matters. Was there anything in the nature of arrangement previous to your suggestion to the officer - might you go in that boat? - No, nothing. 12794. Now, with regard to the boat. At the time you got into it were you aware what amount of accommodation there was or was not in it? - No; I only knew that it was not a lifeboat, and we were bundled in over the side, and every available or visible seat was occupied, and I was unable to sit next my wife, which I wished to do. I could see nothing. It was quite dark on the deck, and it was quite dark in the boat, but I remember those oars alongside, which I could clearly see would have made the boat - 12795. Which occupied part of the thwarts? - I suppose the whole of the side seats. I did not know even that there were side seats. 12796. You do not suggest other than that there were additional places in that boat? - Oh, yes, there were. 12797. I daresay when the daylight came you were able to see what the boat could have done? - Yes. 12798. Now, with regard to an order given by the officer, will you tell me again as nearly as you can recall it what it was you heard the officer say to Symons with regard to the boat? - It was my impression - I am not very sure of it - I understood it was, “Follow the other boats and row fast for the first 200 yards.” 12799. That was your impression? - That was my impression. 12800. Have you a distinct memory or not about that? - No, that is what I thought it was. 12801. When the boat had started from the ship’s side it rowed sharply for some distance? - Yes. 12802. Then she rested? - Yes. How many starts and rowings and restings were there as far as you can recall, or can you recall, before the “Titanic” went down? 12803. (The Commissioner.) Can you recall anything about it in this connection? - Yes, my Lord, I can recall that they stopped rowing several times and went on again, I daresay, five or six times, or four or five times. 12804. Did you count them? - Oh, no. 12805. (Mr. Duke.) If I were to ask you if you had a vivid recollection of any of the events during the period after the boat had been launched and you were floated, what would your answer be? - I should say, “No - nothing vivid.” I do not think it is possible to have a vivid recollection under those circumstances. 12806. You told the Attorney-General what your impression was as to the distance you had reached from the ship? - Yes. 12807. Do you profess to be certain about it or not? - No, but I have been telling friends we were about a thousand yards off; it was my impression then, and it is still, I suppose. 12808. I want to ask you a question about the period after the “Titanic” had sunk. From what quarter of the sea, as far as you could judge, were cries coming? Was there a distinct locality from which you could judge the cries were coming or not? - I think not. 12809. After the “Titanic” had sunk was there any object which would give you a mark or which would have given Symons a mark for rowing? - No, everything was dark. We had been watching that. 12810. The sea was dark? - The sea was dark. 12811. And it was dark in the boat? - Quite dark in the boat. 12812. Are you able to say if there was any definite direction of rowing during the first hour after the “Titanic” had gone down? - I do not think there was any definite order of rowing given at all. I did not hear. 12813. I did not mean by “direction” an order, but any definite direction? - No. 12814. That is an apparent destination? - No, I did not know of it. 12815. Up to the time when you had the conversation with the man who was beside you about his kit, had there been any suggestion from anybody as to what should be done with the boat? - No. 12816. Or whether she should row? - No, there was no suggestion at all. 12817. With regard to the sum of money you promised, have you told the Court the whole of the truth about that matter? - I told the whole incident on Friday. The Commissioner: I should like you to ask him in what circumstances on board the “Carpathia” the money was given. Mr. Duke: I am obliged to your Lordship, and I will deal with it. May I just complete this matter? The Commissioner: Certainly. 12818. (Mr. Duke.) First of all with regard to the time you were in the boat, was anything going on at the time of the conversation with one of the men about his kit which had anything at all to do with the disposition of the boat? - No, all was silence. 12819. You have told the Court that you do not know and you do not say it was Taylor. Were you sitting on the same seat during the whole time? - I was, but the man next to me changed once in the middle of the row to the “Carpathia.” It was a stiff row, and the man got up and changed. The man next to me got tired. 12820. And there was a change of men rowing? - Yes. 12821. Was it before or after that change, as far as you are able to tell us, that the conversation took place about kits? - Before. 12822. Now bring your mind to the time when the boat came to the side of the “Carpathia.” At that time was there any one man in the boat whom you could have distinguished from any of the others? - No. 12823. How did it come about that you distinguished Hendrickson from any other man in the boat? - There was a hitch with one of the men getting up the ladder, and they had to send down a rope to pull him up, and the only man that was

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left in the boat with me was Hendrickson. I spoke to him then, and I said, “Are you the man who was sitting next to me?” I understood him to say, “Yes.” I said, “All right,” and he said “Yes,” or something of that sort. 12824-5. And had you then a conversation in regard to getting the names, or was it subsequently? - I think it was as soon as we got on board. 12826. Did Hendrickson give you some assistance in getting on board the “Carpathia”? - Yes, he did. 12827. When you and he were both on board the “Carpathia” what next took place with regard to money? - I said to him, “If you will get the men’s names I will see that they get some money in a few days or give them a cheque shortly,” or something of that sort. 12828. Did you say any more to him at that time? - No. Oh, do you mean later? 12829. No, I mean on that occasion about money. At the time when you and he were both on the deck together? - No. 12830. When was the next time you saw Hendrickson about the matter? - I saw him, I think, the next day. He came up and drew my attention to himself. I told him to. He had given me a list the same day. 12831. Did he give you a list the same day? - Yes, the same day. 12832. Some time on the same day as you went on board the “Carpathia” in the morning he brought you that list which I have handed in to my Lord? - Yes. 12833. Did he tell you which he was in the list? - Yes, I understood him to be Hendrickson. 12834. You told my Lord that he called attention to himself the next day, as you had bidden him do? - Yes. 12835. He touched his cap to you? - Yes. 12836. And did you have a conversation with him then about the matter? - No, I do not think so. I think I said, “I have not got this; I will see you tomorrow or the next day.” 12837. Now, on your way to New York did you cause Miss Francatelli to write out a form of cheque for each of those persons whose name was in the list? - Yes. 12838. And did you sign those? - Yes. 12839. I think you had not a book of cheques? - No. 12840. And I think it is your common practice to draw cheques upon your bankers - Coutts, are they? - Yes. 12841. Upon notepaper? - Yes. 12842. Did Miss Francatelli write them? - Yes. 12843. Did she give them to you? - Yes. 12844. How did you get the men together? - I went on to the deck just by the smoking-room and saw Hendrickson down below, and beckoned him up and told him to get all the men together, and when they were up there I just gave them each their cheque, asking each fellow what his name was. 12845. Whereabouts on board the “Carpathia” was that? - That was on the deck just by the side of the smoking-room door. 12846. And was anything said as between you and those men when you were giving them each successively the cheque? - Yes. I said, “I am sorry I cannot give you money; but if you had it, you would probably spend it all in New York, so it is just as well it should be in a cheque which will enable you to start your kit again.” That is all I said to them. 12847. Did anything more take place with regard to the giving of these cheques? - Well, when they were given, a friend of ours, a man we had met on board, came up and photographed the whole lot of us there, and I think one or two of the passengers snapshotted us. 12848. There were passengers with cameras? - Yes. 12849. And there was some snapshotting going on? - Yes. I think one was subsequently reproduced in a London paper in which Hendrickson happened to appear. 12850. Had he put on a lifebelt for the purpose of being photographed? - Yes, he had. 12851. It is suggested that Mrs. Astor was in that boat. There is the reproduction of the photograph, and does it show at the bottom that the group includes Mrs. J. J. Astor. Just look at it and see (Handing photograph to Witness.)? - Yes. 12852. (Mr. Duke.) It is in the Sphere, Mr. Attorney. (To the Witness.) It is quite a mistake, is it not. Who is the lady? - That is Miss Francatelli. 12853. That is the lady who is identified as Mrs. Astor. Now I want to go back to the time you were in the boat. You have told me of a man who was in the boat. I think you said a passenger who was constantly calling out while you were on the sea, “Boat ahoy, we ought to go this way, we ought to go that way.” Do you know who he was? - Yes. 12854. Was he one of the other two men who had been passengers of the “Titanic”? - Yes. 12855. Did anybody take any notice of those exclamations of his? - No. 12856. Did they lead to any discussion either with Symons or Horswill or anybody else in the boat as far as you are aware? - No. 12857. Did they have any effect at all on the course the boat took? - Not the least. 12858. And from first to last from the time you and the other passengers were on board that boat, as far as you are aware, had anything that was said by any of you any effect on the direction taken by the boat? - No, nothing. The Commissioner: Is there anything more, Mr. Duke? 12859. (Mr. Duke.) I think there is only one general question, my Lord. (To the Witness.) So far as you were concerned, Sir Cosmo, when did the first suggestion reach you that you had failed to do in that boat anything you could have done? - When I arrived at Fishguard last Monday night. 12860. And found that Hendrickson had made his statement? - Yes. I was met there.

Re-examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

12861. One matter I want to ask you about. You heard a passenger talking, giving directions in the boat? - Well, he was not giving directions, but he was saying, “Let us go here,” and “Boat ahoy.” 12862. Was there any conversation between him and you as to which way you should go? - No, there was only one remark I made to him. 12863. What was that? - To ask him to be quiet. 12864. Was that Mr. Stengel? - Is it necessary to say who? 12865. Well, it is necessary, if you can. I do not know why you should not, if you can tell us. Can you tell us? - I can, perfectly. 12866. Well, who was it? - Yes, it was he. 12867. I asked you because I see he has been examined in America, and I want to call your attention to this statement of his. I am reading from the 30th April, my Lord, at page 14 of the Enquiry before the Senate Commission. “Do you know who gave directions? - (A.) I think between Sir Duff-Gordon and myself we decided which way to go.” That is what Mr. Stengel said? - I think it is wrong. 12868. What? - It is not the case. There was no question at all. I never spoke to the coxswain in any way to give him any directions. The Attorney-General: That is all I want to ask you. The Commissioner: Do you want to ask anything, Sir Robert? Sir Robert Finlay: No, my Lord.

(The Witness withdrew.)

Mr. Duke: Lady Duff-Gordon is here, Mr. Attorney. The Attorney-General: My friend wishes Lady Duff-Gordon to be called, and, of course, I will examine her. I propose to take her at once to the point at issue.

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LADY DUFF-GORDON, Sworn.

Examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

12869. Lady Duff-Gordon, you will remember on the night of this disaster to the “Titanic,” you were wakened, I think, by the collision? - I was. 12870. I only want you to tell me one thing before we get to the boat, had there been offers to you to go into any of the lifeboats? - Oh, yes, they came and tried to drag me away. 12871. You mean some of the sailors? - The sailors. I was holding my husband’s arm. They were very anxious that I should go. 12872. And you refused to go? - Absolutely. 12873. Well, eventually you did go with your husband, as we know, in what has been called the emergency boat? - Yes, I did. 12874. Just tell us quite shortly - I do not want to go into it in any detail - but quite shortly, how it was you went into that boat. Do you remember? - Oh, quite well. 12875. Well, would you tell my Lord? - After the three boats had gone down, my husband, Miss Franks and myself were left standing on the deck. There were no other people on the deck at all visible and I had quite made up my mind that I was going to be drowned, and then suddenly we saw this little boat in front of us - this little thing (Pointing on the model.) - and we saw some sailors, and an officer apparently giving them orders and I said to my husband “Ought we not to be doing something?” He said, “Oh, we must wait for orders” and we stood there for quite some time while these men were fixing up things, and then my husband went forward and said, “Might we get into this boat?” and the officer said in a very polite way indeed “Oh certainly; do; I will be very pleased.” Then somebody hitched me up from the deck and pitched me into the boat and then I think Miss Franks [Miss Laura Francatelli] was pitched in. It was not a case of getting in at all. We could not have got in, it was quite high. They pitched us up in this sort of way (indicating) into the boat and after we had been in a little while the boat was started to be lowered and one American gentleman got pitched in, and one American gentleman was pitched in while the boat was being lowered down. 12876. (The Attorney-General.) I think it is right to say that Mr. Stengel rather confirms that statement if your Lordship will remember. It is not right according to him that the three of them came running up as Symons said. He says he did come up afterwards and was rolled into the boat. (To the Witness.) Now you will remember when you got into the boat, and before the “Titanic” sank, did the men start rowing away from the “Titanic”? - Oh, the moment we touched the water the men began rowing. 12877. Had you heard any orders given? - Yes. 12878. Do you remember what they were? - As far as I can remember, it was to row quickly away from the boat for about 200 yards. 12879. “And come back if called upon”? - No. 12880. You did not hear that? - Oh, no. 12881. I do not quite understand? - I did not hear that. 12882. You did not hear it? - No. 12883. As far as you knew all they had to do was to row out 200 yards? - Yes. 12884. Then did the men commence doing that? - At once. 12885. And did you hear any conversation at all in the boat before the “Titanic” sank? - No. 12886. Did you understand the question I was putting to you? - No, I did not hear it. In our little boat? 12887. Yes? - No. Mr. Duke: She said no. 12888. (The Attorney-General.) But I have her proof before me, and that is why I was not sure she understood the question? - I have no recollection 12889. Let me ask you again. I am speaking to you of before the “Titanic” sank. You understand? - Yes. 12890. What I am asking you is: Before she sank did you hear the men saying anything in the boat? - No. 12891. Did you hear anything said about suction? - Well, perhaps I may have heard it, but I was terribly sick, and I could not swear to it. 12892. What? - I was awfully sick; I do not think I could swear to it. I am asking you about something which I understand you have said quite recently. The Commissioner: Read it to her. The Witness: Yes, will you, please? 12893. (The Attorney-General.) I am asking you about something which I only know from your statement to your solicitor. Did you hear a voice say, “Let us get away”? - Yes, I think so. 12894. Did you hear it said, “It is such an enormous boat; none of us know what the suction may be if she is a goner”? - Yes, I heard them speaking of the enormous boat. It was the word “suction” I was not sure of. I see what you mean. 12895. It is not what I mean, Lady Duff-Gordon. It is what you are said to have said to your solicitor? - Well, I may have said so. 12896. “Such an enormous boat”; that is referring to the “Titanic”? - Yes. 12897. “None of us know what the suction may be if she is a goner”? - That was, I am sure, long before the “Titanic” sank. 12898. That is what I was asking you? - Yes. 12899. I put it to you, but I do not think you appreciated the question? - No, I did not. 12900. It was before the “Titanic” sank? - Yes, it was before. 12901. Now after the “Titanic” sank you still continued to be seasick, I understand? - Yes, terribly. 12902. I only want to ask you one question about that. Tell me first of all do you recollect very well what happened when you were in the boat? - No. 12903. Your mind is hazy about it? - Very. 12904. There may have been some talk which you would not recollect, I suppose? - Well, I do not know. 12905. You think you might? - I think I would. 12906. I will put to you definitely what is said with reference to yourself. Did you hear after the “Titanic” had sunk the cries of the people who were drowning? - No; after the “Titanic” sank I never heard a cry. 12907. You never heard anything? - No, not after the “Titanic” sank. 12908. Did not you hear cries at all? - Yes, before she sank; terrible cries. 12909. Before she sank? - Yes. 12910. Did you see her sink? - I did. 12911. You mean you heard nothing at all after that? - My impression was that there was absolute silence. 12912. Were your men rowing? - Yes. 12913. What, all the time? - No, they began to row as soon as the boat went down. 12914. Did you hear a proposal made that you should go back to where the “Titanic” was sunk? - No. 12915. Did you hear any shouting in your boat. It would be better if you would attend to me? - I am listening. 12916. Did you hear anybody shout out in the boat that you ought to go back? - No. 12917. With the object of saving people who were in the “Titanic”? - No. 12918. You knew there were people in the “Titanic,” did you not? - No, I did not think so; I do not think I was thinking anything about it. 12919. Did you say that it would be dangerous to go back, that you might get swamped? - No. Mr. Scanlan: I have no question. Mr. Harbinson: I do not wish to ask anything.

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Examined by Mr. CLEMENT EDWARDS.

12920. There is one question. Have you seen in the London “Daily News” what purports to be an article specially written by yourself in America? - I have. 12921. Did you write such an article? - No. 12922. It is an entire invention from beginning to end? - Which article? 12923. The one in the “Daily News” which appeared on the 20th April? - Yes, it is rather inventive. A man wrote it from what he thought he heard me saying. 12924. (The Commissioner.) Do you mean to say that somebody came to interview you? - Oh, quantities of people came to interview me. 12925. But this particular man from the “Daily News”? - No, he did not; he was a friend having supper with us the night we arrived. 12926. (Mr. Clement Edwards.) Will you kindly look at that article (Handing the same to the Witness.)? - What am I supposed to say? 12927. If you will look at the heading of the second column on this side you will see that it is an article supposed to be specially written by you, and what purports to be your signature appears at the foot of the column. 12928. (The Commissioner.) Are you looking at it now, Lady Duff-Gordon, for the first time? - For the first time. 12929. Do you mean to say you have never seen the “Daily News” with that article in it up to today? - Never; this is the first time. The last little bit here is absolutely a story. 12930. (Mr. Clement Edwards.) Absolutely what? - A story. 12931. Then if your signature appears there it is a forgery, is it? - Oh, absolutely. Mr. Duke: Do you mind letting me see that. (The same was handed to the learned Counsel.) I have never seen it till this moment. 12932. (Mr. Clement Edwards.) I want to use it for a moment (The document was handed to Mr. Edwards.) (To the Witness.) You say that a friend came and had supper with you, and you suggest he is responsible for what appears here? - I know he is. 12933. You know he is? - Oh, yes. 12934. Some of it may be true and some of it may be false? - Would you like me to tell you the story? 12935. I should like you to answer the question. Is this true that you watched several women and children and some men climb into the lifeboats, and did an officer say, “Lady Gordon, are you ready?” - It is not true that the officer spoke to me, but I did see women and children being handed into the lifeboats. 12936. Is it true that he said, “Lady Gordon, are you ready?” - It is untrue. 12937. Is this true: “I said to my husband, “Well, we might as well take a boat, although the trip will only be a little pleasure excursion until the morning”? - Quite untrue. 12938. That is untrue. Is it untrue that you said it was the captain’s special boat, that five stokers got in and two Americans - Mr. Solomon, of New York, and Mr. Stengel, of Newark? - I do not remember saying that. 12939. It is true, is it not, that that number of persons did get in? - It was Mr. Solomon and Mr. Stengel and Miss Franks [Francatelli], my husband and myself. We were the passengers. 12940. “Besides those two passengers there were Sir Cosmo, myself, Miss Franks [Francatelli], an English girl.” is it true you said that? - I think that might easily be. 12941. Is this true that you said this: “Numbers of men standing near by joked with us because we were going out on the ocean”? - No, that is not true. 12942. That is invention? - Absolutely. 12943. Is it true that you said that some of them said “The ship cannot sink,” and that one of them said, “You will get your death of cold out there amid the ice.” Is that true? - No, not true. Is it true that you said you were slung off and cruised around for two hours, and it did not seem very cold? - Quite untrue. 12944. Is it true that you said “I suddenly clutched the sides of the lifeboat. I had seen the ‘Titanic’ give a curious shiver.” That is invention, is it? - Yes, quite. 12945. Did you say “Everything could be clearly made out; there were no lights on the ship, save for a few lanterns”? - No. 12946. Is this true that you said this: “We watched her - we were 200 yards away - go down slowly, almost peacefully”? - No. 12947. Did you say then, “An awful silence seemed to hang over everything, and then from the water all about where the ‘Titanic’ had been arose a Bedlam of shrieks and cries”? - No, I never said that. 12948. That is entirely untrue? - Absolutely. And is it true that you said this - 12949. (The Commissioner.) Who was this gentleman? - He was the editor of the “Sunday American.” His name was Mr. Merrett. 12950. What is the “Sunday American”? - It is a newspaper. 12951. Is it published in London? - No. 12952. Where is it published? - In New York. I could tell you exactly how it came out if I were allowed to. 12953. (Mr. Clement Edwards.) Is this true that you said this: “Women and men were clinging to bits of wreckage in the icy water”? - No. 12954. “And it was at least an hour before the awful chorus of shrieks ceased, gradually dying into a moan of despair”? - No, I never said that. 12955. Did you say this: “I remember the very last cry; it was a man’s voice calling loudly, ‘My God, my God,’ he cried monotonously, in a dull, hopeless way.” That is untrue? - Absolutely untrue. 12956. “And we waited gloomily in the boats through the rest of the night, the stokers rowing as hard as they could to keep themselves warm”? - Quite untrue. Mr. Duke: May I borrow that? Mr. Clement Edwards: Yes. (Handing the paper to the learned Counsel.)

Examined by Mr. LEWIS.

12957. Do you write for any American papers at all? - Yes, the “Sunday American.” 12958. Did you supply an article to the “Evening Herald”? - No. Mr. Duke: I do not think Lady Duff-Gordon can hear; I cannot - whether “he” wrote or “she.” The Attorney-General: She. 12959. (Mr. Lewis.) Do you write in the “Evening Herald”? - No. The Commissioner: Mr. Duke, do you wish to ask anything? Mr. Duke: Yes, my Lord. I think Lady Duff-Gordon should explain about this article.

Examined by Mr. DUKE.

12960. When you were at New York you went to an hotel? - Yes. 12961. And that evening you had supper together with your husband? - Several people - six ladies. 12962. Did Mr. Merrett come there? - Yes. 12963. Was he a gentleman you had known? - A great friend of ours. 12964. Had you any idea of any publication of anything at that time? - Yes. 12965. What did he say to you? - After he had

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left us about half an hour he telephoned to me, and he said, “Mr. Hurst has just rung me up, and must have your story of the ‘Titanic’ wreck for tomorrow morning’s newspaper.” He said, “May I tell your story as I have heard it?” 12966. What did you say? - I said “Yes,” and he tells me afterwards that he telephoned to their head office all he knew about it, and then a clever reporter put all that into words and it appeared next morning in the “New York American.” 12967. Your friend told some clever American reporter what he had heard? - Yes. 12968. And then you were advertised as having written and signed this false article? - That is it. 12969. And was that published in various papers, did you find? - Oh, all over - everywhere. 12970. But you had not seen this in the “Daily News” till when? - Just now; here. Mr. Duke: I think that is all I need ask. The Attorney-General: I do not ask anything. The Commissioner: Do you want to ask anything, Sir Robert? Sir Robert Finlay: No, my Lord.

(The Witness withdrew.)

The Attorney-General: There are other members of the crew here, but I do not propose to call them. I understand my friend does not ask me to call them, and I do not suggest they would throw any light on the matter, or that anything they would say would contain any suggestion either against Sir Cosmo or Lady Duff-Gordon. Mr. Duke: Upon that understanding that neither of the members of the crew corroborates either Hendrickson or Taylor upon that subject. I have nothing more to say. The Attorney-General: No, I cannot do that; I will not do that. Mr. Duke: Then I would rather my friend should call any witness he thinks will throw light upon it. The Attorney-General: I can give no undertaking of that kind. I should have thought it was quite plain that I could not. I thought they would not be able to help us very much; I thought we had got the story. The Commissioner: I do not think they will be able to help us at all, but still, in the circumstances, I think you must put them into the box. The Attorney-General: Certainly, my Lord; they shall be called. The Commissioner: I hope you will be able to take those witnesses quite shortly. They are put into the box more for Mr. Duke. The Attorney-General: Yes, my Lord. I will call Collins first. The Commissioner: I do not know whether you desire the other two witnesses to be out of Court while Collins is examined. The Attorney-General: I do not. The Commissioner: If not, I think it would be convenient to have them in Court. Do you object, Mr. Duke? Mr. Duke: No, my Lord, I concur, if I may say so. The Attorney-General: All the other witnesses have been in Court whilst we have been enquiring into this part of the story. The Commissioner: Very well.

SAMUEL COLLINS, Sworn.

Examined by Mr. BUTLER ASPINALL.

12971. Were you at the time of this disaster serving as a fireman on the “Titanic”? - Yes. 12972. Now you, in fact, got away, did you not, in the emergency boat on the starboard side? - That is quite right. 12973. I am going to take you straight to that. Did you help to lower that boat? - I helped to lower that boat - to get it ready to lower is not to lower it. 12974. And later on was it lowered? - It was lowered. 12975. And you got into it? - I was told to get into it. 12976. Who told you to get in? - Chief Officer Murdoch. 12977. Did you see some ladies get into that boat? - I did. 12978. How many? - Two, I think. 12979. That is right. Do you know how they came to get into it? - They were ordered by Chief Officer Murdoch. 12980. And did three male passengers get into that boat? - Two male passengers, I think. 12981. Do you know how they came to get into it? - Because they were ordered by Chief Officer Murdoch. 12982. When that boat was lowered to the water, did you hear any orders from that officer as to what was to be done with that boat? - I did. 12983. What were those orders? - Ordered by Chief Officer Murdoch to lay handy for further orders. 12984. Now was that boat then rowed away from the ship? - It was. 12985. How far do you think they rowed away? - I am not much of a judge of distance, but I will give you a slight idea - say, about 100 yards. 12986. We have been told that a man of the name of Symons was in charge of the boat. Is that right? - Yes. 12987. When you got the distance you have told us away from the ship, did you see that the “Titanic” was sinking, getting lower in the water? - We could not realise she was sinking, but we saw her going a bit further down by the head. 12988. After a time did you see her go down? - I saw her go down. 12989. After that did you hear any cries in the water from people? - Yes, I did. 12990. Was anything said by anybody about going back in the direction of those cries? - Nothing at all. 12991. Are you sure of that? - Nothing at all. 12992. Was the man Hendrickson in the boat? - Yes. 12993. Did Hendrickson mention or propose going back in the direction of those cries? - No, no one proposed it at all. 12994. Did Hendrickson say anything? - Not that I know of. He was close to me. 12995. That is just what I was going to ask; where were you sitting? - In the fore thwart of the boat. 12996. Which thwart was he in? - On the fore part of the fore thwart of the boat. 12997. If he had said anything in an ordinarily loud voice would you have heard it? - I would, certainly. 12998. Do you say he did not say anything? - I would have heard it if he had said anything. 12999. When the ship disappeared and you heard these cries, was nothing said at all by anybody in that boat? - Simply the word passed through the boat to pull for a short time to keep away from the suction. 13000. Who said that? - I could not tell you; it is impossible to say who said it, but we pulled for a short distance away to keep clear of the suction. 13001. Was it one of the passengers? - No, it was not one of the passengers, it was one of the crew. 13002. One member of the crew did mention the suction, did he? - Certainly, and it stands to reason there would be a great suction with a ship like that. 13003. What was done on the boat after this? - We pulled away a little bit from the ship when we saw her sinking, which was a thing I do not wish to explain to you; I do not wish to

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give anything at all to you of an idea of the ship sinking, but I wish to tell you we pulled a little away, and the coxswain of the boat brought the boat round. I being in the fore thwart of the boat could see that he steered the boat round, and we must have pulled in the direction of where the ship sank. 13004. How far? - It is impossible to tell you how far. 13005. Do you wish us to understand that the boat was pulled back in the direction of the drowning people? - Yes, right in the direction of where the ship sank. 13006. Did you get close to them? - We got until we came into contact with the boats that left the ship after we left. 13007. But I meant close to the people where the cries had been? - Yes, where the cries had come from. 13008. Is it your evidence that you went back to where the cries came from? - As far as I can tell you, to my idea. 13009. Were the cries still going on while you were rowing back? - They continued about 10 minutes, and we heard nothing afterwards. 13010. While rowing back towards the direction of the cries, is it your evidence that those cries went on for about 10 minutes? - That is it. 13011. According to your evidence, this boat did go back and try to save life? - Well, of course, we would have saved lives if we had come across any to save. 13012. Your evidence is that the boat went back with the object of trying to save life? - To do our level best. 13013. Is that accurate evidence? - That is quite right. 13014. You are sure about this story you are telling us? - I am quite sure- sure as that I took the oath on that Book. The Commissioner: You have got a proof there, I suppose? 13015. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Yes, my Lord; but I do not think it helps me. (To the Witness.) Did you make a statement before an official when you came to this country? - I did. 13016. You did tell him (I see it here) “We felt a little suction, but we pulled hard with our oars.” That was pulling away? - That is quite right. 13017. “We went to the spot whence came the cries, but discovered nothing”? - That is right; that is as near as I can tell you. 13018. And then you said that as your boat was not full you could have saved quite half a dozen more people? - That is quite right. The Commissioner: That is substantially what he says now. 13019. (Mr. Butler Aspinall - To the Witness.) Did you see a light while you were in the boat? - Yes, we saw a light. 13020. What did you think it was, a vessel’s light or a star? - To my idea - I am not much of a sailor, but I have been a fireman for practically all my life - I thought it looked like a stern light, but it might have been a masthead light. In the distance it looked like a stern light.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

13021. When something was said about suction, how far were you from the “Titanic”? - About 100 yards, as near as I can tell you, but I have given you to understand that I am no judge of distances. 13022. How long had you stopped in that position at 100 yards distant from the “Titanic”? - That is another hard question to ask me, because at a time like that time seems so long. It may have been 10 minutes or a quarter of an hour. 13023. Could you give my Lord any notion of the length of time? - We lay on our oars broadside to the ship. 13024. At that time did you hear someone in the boat say, “There is danger here; we had better row away from here. This is a light boat, and there may be suction when the ship goes down; let us pull away”? - No, Sir. 13025. If a passenger, Mr. Stengel, stated to the American Enquiry that he said that, is it untrue? - It is untrue. 13026. Is not this the case, that you were close to the bow of this boat? - On the fore thwart of the boat. 13027. And that Mr. Stengel was in the stern? - They were all in the stern of the boat. There was me and another man in the front of the fore thwart, and there was a sailor on the look-out in front of the boat. I do not know their names. 13028. Is it not possible that this might have been said by a passenger? - I would have heard it if it had been said on account of being in a small boat. 13029. You do not remember one of the passengers saying anything like this? - No. 13030. He said that he made this statement, and then he says, “The other passengers agreed, and we pulled away from the ‘Titanic’”? - That is wrong. 13031. Then he is asked - “(A.) I beg your pardon, it is wrong to a certain extent, but when the suction was on I know there was something passed, but who said it I cannot answer at all. We pulled away just for the time of the suction, and it was for a very short time. 13032. There was some conversation about suction? - Certainly. 13033. But you do not know whether it was by a passenger or by a member of the crew? - I think the majority of it was passed between the crew. 13034. But you could not say whether one of the passengers said it? - I could not say for certain.

Examined by Mr. CLEMENT EDWARDS.

13035. Did you hear anything said in the boat about money? - Nothing at all. 13036. When did you hear any talk about money? - When I carried the coat of a gentleman whose name I did not know up the ladder. 13037. Then it was not Hendrickson who carried the coat? - No, it was not. 13038. Was it you who got the names of the crew? - No, the gentleman asked me to get the names of the crew, but I went naturally enough, as I would do, and told the others who were in the boat, and Hendrickson took it into his own hand. 13039. But you were the man asked to get the names? - Yes. 13040. And up to that time you knew nothing at all about it? - Not until we received the envelope; we did not know what it was, and it came as a surprise to us. 13041. Did you hear any lady in the boat say anything about the danger of swamping? - Nothing at all. 13042. Did you hear No. 13 boat hail you? - We heard one boat, but I could not tell you what boat it was. 13043. What did you hear? - The only thing I heard was that Hendrickson shouted to that boat passing some name: “Are you all right?” and the order came back, “Yes,” and we said “All right.” We passed the word right through then: “Keep as close together as we possibly can.” 13044. Right through where? - As many of the boats as were round about. 13045. You saw a number of boats? - Not a number, but two or three. Of course, that is a number. 13046. Do you remember the number of either of the boats that hailed you? - I could not see the numbers of the boats in the dark; in fact, I did not know the numbers of the boats at all. 13047. Did you hear anybody shout out the number of the boat? - No, I did not. 13048. Did you hear anybody shout from a boat asking you to take some of their passengers on board? - No, there was no such thing. That is the only thing that was passed, “Are you all right?” and we said, “Yes,” and the order was passed then, “Are you all right?” and they said, “Yes.” The order was to keep close together.

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13049. You had a lot of room in your boat? - Not a lot of room; we had room for a few more. 13050. Did it occur to you that you ought to go back immediately and try to pick up some people? - We could not go back quicker than we did. 13051. How soon after the ship went down did you go back? - It is hard to tell the time we turned round; as soon as we thought we were clear of the suction, the boat turned round; the coxswain turned the boat round, and I am sure we were pulling that way until we came into contact with these boats. That was the first time we came into contact with the boats. 13052. From the time the ship went down to the time you got to where you thought the cries had come from, how long a time was it? - I daresay we were pulling that way for a long while. 13053. How long? - I daresay for fully an hour one way and the other. I am not a navigator. I could not tell you. I had no compass to tell us which way we were going, but that is as near as I can tell you. Mr. Duke: I have no questions.

(The Witness withdrew.)

FREDERICK SHEATH, Sworn.

Examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL.

13054. Is your name Frederick Sheath? - Yes. 13055. Are you a trimmer? - Yes. 13056. Were you one of the people ordered into this emergency boat, No. 1? - Yes. 13057. Do you remember the boat being lowered to the water? - Yes. 13058. Did you hear any order given, as the boat was leaving the “Titanic,” to Symons, who was in charge of the boat? - No. 13059. You did not hear it? - No. 13060. Where were you sitting in No. 1? - The after-mid. 13061. Were you rowing? - Yes. 13062. And the man called Symons was steering I think? - Yes. 13063. I want to see where you were. Was anybody else on the same thwart with you? - One lady, but I could not say who it was. 13064. Who was in front of you, next nearest the stern? - One gentleman whose name I do not know and Pusey, a fireman. 13065. And after that again in the stern of the boat? - There was a lady and a gentleman, and the coxswain Symons. 13066. You were on the second thwart from the stern? - Yes. 13067. Do you know who was behind you? - Only Taylor - that is all I know - a fireman. 13068. Taylor, who has given evidence here? There was another lady in the boat, was there not? - Yes. 13069. Where was the other lady? - Right aft. 13070. Do you mean nearer the stern than you? - Yes, right aft. 13071. This is what we want to know. When the “Titanic” went down did you hear any talk or discussion in the boat as to what should be done? - No. 13072. Nothing at all? - No. 13073. Did you hear any orders given by Symons? - No, only to pull away from the ship, that is all. 13074. You heard him say, “Pull away from the ship”? - Yes. 13075. Was the ship still floating then, or had the ship gone down then? - It was still floating, then, when we left. 13076. Still floating when he said that. Did you pull away from the ship? - Yes. 13077. I asked you if you remembered when the “Titanic” went down: Did you see it go down? - I saw it go down. 13078. When it went down what was your boat doing? Were you rowing, or resting on your oars? - We were resting on our oars. 13079. What I want to know is, after the “Titanic” went down, what was done by your boat then? - We pulled back again to the other boats. 13080. Did you hear any orders given as to what you should do? - I was not taking much notice of what he was saying; I was looking after myself. 13081. When the “Titanic” went down did you hear any cries? - Yes. 13082. Did the cries continue for some time? - Yes. 13083. You say your boat went back to the other boats? - Yes. 13084. Had these other boats left the “Titanic” before you or after you? - Some of them left before we did. 13085. Then they had not gone as far away from the “Titanic” as you had? - Well, we were all around; we all met one another. They must have gone as far away as we did. 13086. I just want to understand if you can help us. You say your boat went back. Do you mean it went back to where the “Titanic” had sunk? - I could not say where she sank; I am no navigator. 13087. That is what you heard the last gentleman say? - No, I never. 13088. Were you not here? - No. 13089. Were you not here when the last man gave evidence? - No; I was outside the curtains having a smoke. 13090. You say you heard the cries, and they went on for some time. Did you get near to any of the cries? - I could not say about getting nearer any of the cries. 13091. You could not say? - No. 13092. You do not remember any more conversation than that? - No. The Commissioner: Does anyone want to ask this witness any further question. Do you, Mr. Duke? Mr. Duke: No.

(The Witness withdrew.)

ROBERT WILLIAM PUSEY, Sworn.

Examined by Mr. RAYMOND ASQUITH.

13093. Is your name Robert William Pusey? - Yes. 13094. Were you a fireman on the “Titanic”? - Yes. 13095. Were you in this emergency boat No. 1? - I was in that boat. 13096. Did you hear any orders given as to what you were to do when the boat was lowered? - Yes. 13097. What? - I heard the orders given to the coxswain to push off clear of the ship; that is all I heard, and the last words I heard the officer say - which one I could not tell you - was “See that the boat’s crew do what you tell them.” 13098. How far did you row away from the ship? - About 200 yards, I should say. 13099. Did you then stop? - Yes, we lay on our oars. 13100. Did you see the ship go down from that point? - Yes, but not very clearly. 13101. Where were you sitting in the boat? - I was next opposite Miss Frank. [Francatelli] 13102. Miss Francatelli? - I could not tell you her name. 13103. Which thwart was that on? - There was Symons, Miss Frank [Francatelli], a gentleman and myself, and the gentleman looking forward and I was looking aft - on the second thwart from aft that was. 13104. After the ship went down, did you hear any cries? - I did. 13105. How long did they continue? - I should

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say about a quarter of an hour or 20 minutes, something like that. 13106. While those cries went on were you standing still the whole time or did you begin to row again? - No, I believe we were lying on our oars. 13107. All the time the cries went on? - Yes, as far as I can recollect. 13108. Did anybody in the boat say anything about the cries? - Not in my estimation; I cannot bring it to recollection. 13109. Did anybody suggest that you should go back in the direction of the cries? - Not to my knowledge. 13110. Did you hear anything said at all about the cries? - I did not. 13111. Or about going back? - No. 13112. Did you remain stationary for about - I think you said - 20 minutes? - Near about 20 minutes, I should say; it may have been longer or it may have been shorter. 13113. What did you do then? - We cruised about after that, and then we saw this light, and we rowed for the light, and we came in contact with two more boats. They hailed us and asked if we had an officer on board, and we said, “No.” They said, “Are you all right?” and we said, “Yes.” 13114. When you began rowing you said that you rowed for the light? - Yes. 13115. You did not make any attempt to row back in the direction where you thought the “Titanic” had sunk? - I do not think we did.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

13116. Did you hear any passengers say that the boat was a small one, and that there was danger in going back? - Nothing.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

13117. Do you remember hearing anything said in the emergency boat about presents or about money? - Yes, I did. 13118. That is to say you do not remember any conversation about going back to where the cries were? - No. 13119. But you remember the conversation about the money? - Yes. I do, and I will explain to you how it came about too. Lady Gordon said to Miss Franks, “There is your beautiful nightdress gone,” and I said, “Never mind about your nightdress madam, as long as you have got your life”; and then I heard someone forward at the fore end of me say - I said we had lost our kits and that our pay was stopped from the time she was a wreck - “We will give you a little to start a new kit.” That was all I heard.

Examined by Mr. CLEMENT EDWARDS.

13120. When was this said? - After the “Titanic” was a wreck, after everything was quiet. 13121. How long would that be? - About 3 o’clock in the morning because we were rowing for the light when this was said. 13122. Had things become quiet before 3 o’clock? - Yes, we were rowing for this light half an hour or more. 13123. Just be careful for a moment will you and follow my question: How long after the “Titanic” went down did you first hear mention of this money? - I should say three quarters of an hour. 13124. Had the cries stopped then? - Yes. 13125. Had you hailed the other boats then? - Yes; they hailed us first and we answered them. 13126. Could you see what the numbers of the boats were that hailed you? - I could not say, and I do not know them; it was dark. 13127. Did either one of them ask you what room you had in your boat? - Nothing whatever; I never heard that mentioned. 13128. Were you asked at any time during the night before you got to the “Carpathia” if you had room in your boat? - Not to my knowledge. 13129. You had a lot of room in your boat? - I should say we had enough room for another dozen. 13130. Did you make any suggestion about going back to pick up the drowning? - No. 13131. Did it occur to you at all that you ought to go back? - No, it was not my place; I was not in charge of the boat; if that had been said I would certainly have gone back with the remainder. 13132. You were ready and willing to go back? - Quite willing. 13133. But you did not think it your place to suggest it? - No. 13134. Were you not surprised that somebody else did not suggest it? - Yes, I was. 13135. Did you express your surprise to any body? - No. 13136. Was there any suggestion made that you should go and join the other boats? - Yes. 13137. (The Commissioner.) I do not understand your frame of mind. You were surprised that no one made the suggestion that your boat should go back? - Yes. 13138. Then were you surprised that you did not make the suggestion? - No. 13139. Then you were surprised that no one else made the suggestion, but you were not surprised that you did not make it? - No. 13140. It is a curious state of mind? - We were half-dazed at the time, all of us on a job like that. 13141. (Mr. Clement Edwards.) Can you offer any explanation at all as to why your boat did not go back and try to pick up people? - Yes, she would have been swamped if she had gone back; that is my opinion about it. 13142. What reason have you for saying that you would have been swamped if you had gone back? - I hardly understand you. 13143. You say that if you had gone back you would have been swamped? - Yes. 13144. What reason have you for saying that you would have been swamped if you had gone back? - I meant to say that there were so many people in the water; you could hear that by the cries. 13145. Did anybody say in the boat that they were altogether? - No. 13146. Did anybody say it was dangerous? - No. 13147. Did anybody say that you might be swamped? - No. 13148. Does it not occur to you now that you might very well have gone back? - No. 13149. Wait until I have finished my question, will you? Does it not occur to you that you might very well have gone back with a good chance of picking up some stragglers outside the swarm? - Yes, right outside. 13150. Does it also occur to you that you might very well have gone to another boat and put your four or five passengers off into the other boat, and then gone back and helped to pick up some poor drowning people? - The boats could not take any more; they were full then. 13151. How do you know that? - We could see the people from the distance. 13152. What boats did you see that were so full that they could take no more? - I do not know the numbers, but you could see them all up round the gunwales of the boats. 13153. But you say that nobody in your boat hailed either of these other boats and asked if they could take some passengers on board? - No, that was not the hail at all. The hail was that they asked if we had an officer, and we said “No.”

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13154. It did not occur to you that you might have unloaded your passengers by getting some of the other boats to take some of your passengers, and then gone back with a practically empty boat to pick up some of the poor people in the water? - We did not do that. 13155. Did it occur to you? - No.

(The Witness withdrew.)

The Commissioner: That is all, is it not? The Attorney-General: That is all. The Commissioner: We have now finished with No. 1 boat. The Attorney-General: We are going on now with the examination of Wheat, who was under examination. We have been through the boat list so far, but you have not had the evidence yet of five boats, 3, 8, 9, 10 and 16. We are going to call some evidence of those, and then we shall be in a position after that to give you a list together with a digest of the evidence with regard to each boat. We are only going to call one or at most two from each of the boats. The Witness Wheat was called. The Solicitor-General: He appears to have selected this moment to leave, my Lord, but he is coming back again. I am sorry. The Commissioner: Have you the number of the boat he was in? The Solicitor-General: He was in boat No. 11. We wanted to call a stewardess, and I understand she is here and we can do it at once.

Mrs. ELIZABETH LEATHER, Sworn.

Examined by Mr. BUTLER ASPINALL.

13156. Were you serving as a first class stewardess on the “Titanic” on the occasion of this disaster? - Yes. 13157. Were you asleep, or rather, were you turned in at the time of the collision with the iceberg? - Yes. 13158. Did you get up? - Not for some time afterwards. 13159. When you speak of some time, do you mean in five minutes or half an hour, or what? - About half an hour or three-quarters. 13160. You thought there was no reason for getting up? - Yes. 13161. And your judgment is that in about half an hour or three-quarters of an hour you got up? - Yes. 13162. Would it be your business to look after some of the ladies in your part of the ship? - Certainly. 13163. And did you go to look after them? - They had already gone out of their rooms. 13164. By the time you got up you found they were all up? - Yes. 13165. Where did you go after you got up? - Up to B deck. 13166. Did you see any of your stewardesses about? - Yes, quite a number. 13167. Were the stewardesses, as far as you could see, all doing their duty? - Yes; they had blankets and ciderdowns to put round people. 13168. And as a class they were doing all they were being told to do were they? - Yes. 13169. Looking after the lady passengers? - Yes. 13170. You went to B deck; did you remain on B deck or did you go elsewhere? - I went down to the cabin again. 13171. To your cabin? - Yes. 13172. I do not want to go into this in great detail. You went to your own cabin and then later on did you go up? - Yes. 13173. To which deck? - To A deck. 13174. Were you after a time helped into No. 16 boat? - Yes. 13175. And you were ultimately taken on board the “Carpathia”? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

13176. Have you been for a considerable time a stewardess? - Yes. 13177. Is it the practice on liners to give each stewardess a boat station? - Yes. 13178. And at some time on the voyage are the stewardesses as well as the other hands called to their stations? - Only on sailing days; there is then a boat muster. 13179. But you had not that on the “Titanic”? - On the sailing day we all mustered in the companion to pass the doctor. 13180. You mean the day you left Southampton? - Yes. 13181. But were you told then what your boat station was? - No, we were supposed to look for it ourselves on the list. 13182. But you had not been told the station you would take on the boat? - No. 13183. After the collision you and all the other stewardesses were doing their duty in helping the people as much as possible? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

13184. Do you know if after the collision any general alarm was sounded on the “Titanic”? - I do not know.

Examined by Sir ROBERT FINLAY.

13185. Before your boat put off did you hear the question asked whether there were any more women and children? - Yes, and there were no more to be seen when we went off.

(The Witness withdrew.)

The Solicitor-General: We have this man Wheat here now.

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JOSEPH THOMAS WHEAT, Sworn.

Further examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL.

13186. (The Solicitor-General.) You will remember, my Lord, he described what happened up to the time when he saw the water fall down the stairway from A deck to F deck, and he had just told us that he had gone up the stairway on his way to the upper deck. (To the Witness.) That is right, is it not? - Yes, Sir. 13187. I think you can tell us now [what] happened when you got to the boat deck? - When I arrived at No. 9 boat Mr. Murdoch was there with quite a number of our men passing women and children over from the port side into No. 9 boat. 13188. When you say “with a number of our men” does that mean with a number of stewards? - Yes; the victualling department. 13189. They were being put into No. 9 boat? - The starboard side. 13190. I think you had been getting your stewards up to their stations, had you not? - Yes, I had just come up from down below after doing that. 13191. Did you hear the orders which Mr. Murdoch gave as to what you were to do? - Yes; he told me to take the rest of the boat’s crew down on to the next deck as they had to send the people off A deck. 13192. This is a little important, and we must get it clear. The next deck would be A deck? - Yes. 13193. Who was it you were to take down to A deck? - Our own men. 13194. The stewards who were to go into different boats as crew? - Yes. 13195. Did you do that? - Yes. I took about 70 men down altogether, I think. 13196. Stewards? - Yes. 13197. When you got your men down to A deck just tell us what you did - how you arranged them? - When we got the men down to A deck, I lined them all up two deep round the boats, for fear there was a rush. 13198. Did that keep a clear space next to the boats? - Yes, about six feet from the bulwarks. 13199. Had you heard the order that women and children were to go forward first? - Yes, that was the general order right through - “women and children only.” 13200. Having had your men up, as you say, two deep round the boats, what was done about the women and children? - First I told the men off to make sure that the plug in No. 11 was in tight, and then I told five or six men, I cannot tell which, to get into the boat to hand the women and children in. Then the order was passed to pass the women and children along. After the women and children were all passed in we filled her up with as many as the boat would possibly hold, and Mr. Murdoch, looking over the top, said, “You have got enough there.” 13201. All this time were you keeping your line of stewards? - No; at that time I was standing with one foot on the rail and one foot on the bulwarks. We were passing women and children into the boat. 13202. You say you arranged your stewards to keep order with two lines; was that order kept after that? - Yes. 13203. And were people kept back? - Yes. 13204. Except the women and children? - Women and children only were allowed inside the line. 13205. That, I think, was No. 11? - Yes. 13206. Is No. 11 the boat in which you went away? - Yes. 13207. Who ordered you in? - Mr. Murdoch. 13208. We have already had some evidence about it from a witness named Mackay, so that one only wants it very shortly. When your boat was lowered, you say Mr. Murdoch gave the order. Was she full? - Yes, quite full she could not hold another soul. 13209. What were the proportions of women and children? - I counted them at daylight as best I could. There were fifty-one women, nine children, seven stewards, two sailors, one fireman, and myself. 13210. Then there were no men passengers in that boat at all? - Yes, there were three male passengers. 13211. I do not think you mentioned them? - No, I did not. 13212. How did the three male passengers come to be there? - I cannot say that. 13213. Was there good order kept in getting them into this boat, No. 11? - Yes, very good order. 13214. Then No. 11 in due course was picked up? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

13215. Your proper boat station was, I understand, No. 9? - No. 11. 13216. This boat No. 11 in which you went off, I understand, had not a lamp? - No, not to my knowledge. 13217. Nor a compass? - No. 13218. Had it provisions? - Well, I cannot say if there were any in the provision locker, because we did not look there. 13219. Had it water? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

13220. Could you tell me if on the “Titanic” there was any general system of organisation amongst the stewards as to what their duties would be in case of emergency or danger? - In regard to what? 13221. In case of danger - where their posts of duty would be in case of danger from fire or wreck? - Emergency doors, do you mean? 13322. No. Was there any system of organisation among the stewards? - No, only among the heads of the departments; it was left to them. 13223. There was no general system which had been established, was there, and positions allotted to the stewards in case of danger? - Yes, all the stewards were allotted to boats; every man had his boat. 13224. Do I understand that they were allotted to the boats in case of wreck? - Yes. 13225. Then there is no general system or instruction given to them as to taking charge of the different classes and the different sections of the passengers? - No, that is understood with regard to the first, second, and third; they are each in charge of their own departments. 13226. Is it after they have discharged the duty of looking after their own departments that they are supposed to start at the boats? - Yes. 13227. Not before? - No. 13228. Do you say that it was after the stewards had warned the different departments or classes that on this occasion they went up to the boat deck? - Yes, they did not get their orders until everybody had a lifebelt on to the best of their knowledge, and the people were all taken up to the boat deck. 13229. Did you hear instructions given to the stewards to see that all the people were taken up to the deck? - Yes, I heard that instruction given by Mr. McElroy about a quarter-past twelve, or round about that time; he sent us down to Mr. Harding to get lifebelts on the passengers and get them on deck.

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Examined by Mr. CLEMENT EDWARDS.

13230. Whose duty was it to close the watertight doors on deck F? - They belonged to the Turkish bath man. 13231. You, in fact, closed them? - Yes. 13232. Did you get any orders to do that? - No. 13233 Had he had any orders, do you know? - Not that I know of. He may have had orders; I did not see him around until afterwards. 13234. You closed them entirely at your own discretion? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. HOLMES.

13235. Was your boat lowered empty from the boat deck to the A deck? - Yes, there was nobody in it. 13236. And it was filled from A deck? - Yes. 13237. The deck was quite open? - Yes; just as it is there (Pointing on the plan.). 13238. Further forward there are windows? - Yes, just as on the plans here. 13239. Did Mr. Murdoch come down on to A deck to give his orders? - No. 13240. He gave them from the boat deck? - Yes. 13241. Over the side? - Yes, we could hear him shouting over the side; he looked over the side when the boat was full and told us to lower her away.

Examined by Mr. COTTER.

13242. Did you go down to the gloryhole? - Yes, I went down twice. 13243. Did you see any water at all on A deck? - No. 13244. Did you see any water in the lower gloryhole? - Yes, but our men were not down there, and I had nothing to do with that. 13245. Is it not the rule to provide that there should be boat drills on the ship in each department so that the men may be mustered at the boats and know the stations allotted to them? - Yes. 13246. And they receive their orders as to what to do in case of emergency? - Yes. 13247. So many men on the boat and the rest as stand by men? - Yes. 13248. They receive their orders from the Chief Steward, the Second Steward, or yourself, and you receive your orders from the Captain? - Yes. 13249. If there had been proper boat drill in Southampton and the men had been properly organised do you not think that they could have saved a lot more people than they did? - That is a very hard thing to say; I do not think so under the circumstances. 13250. My reason for putting the question is that some of the boats went away not properly manned and with not a proper complement of passengers? - Yes. 13251. My suggestion to you is that if everybody had known their station and known their duty they could have manned those boats properly and got the proper number of passengers in them? - With regard to the boats on the starboard side Nos. 3, 5, 7 and 9, I have the idea that those men were away, provisioning the boats, because there were none of our men taken away in them. 13252. Is it not the fact that there are only two provision men to each boat and others to man the boat? - Yes. 13253. What system had they got there? - That the boats crews of 3, 5, 7 and 9 should provision the lifeboats. 13254. And not get into the boat? - They will get into the boats afterwards. 13255. If you were having boat drill and the order came from the bridge that you were all to get into your stations at the boats, how many of the stewards’ department would get into the boat? - I suppose they would all do so if they all belonged to the boat’s crew. 13256. Have you taken part in boat drill? - Yes. 13257. Is it not the fact that there are so many men for all the boats? - No, I have never seen it that way; I have seen the whole boat’s crew get in if it was a case of taking the boat. 13258. What constitutes a boat’s crew? - I should think about 25 of our men are allotted to a boat. 13259. How many sailors? - I do not know. 13260. How many firemen? - I never saw the firemen muster at the boats. 13261. Have you taken part in a drill when everybody has taken their share of the work with regard to the manning of the boats? - Not in this ship, I think. 13262. Have you done it anywhere else? - No, I cannot say I have - not manning the boat. 13263. That is why I asked you the question - that if there had been properly organised boat drill and the men knew their stations I suggest more people would have been saved? - The men did know their stations. 13264. Did you have any bulkhead door drill? - Yes. 13265. On what day? - On the Saturday morning we had fire drill and bulkhead door drill. 13266. Were all the bulkhead doors closed? - They were all closed. 13267. How do you account for the fact that when the ship came into collision with the iceberg they did not go and close the doors? - They would have to go by the orders. 13268. Is it not the fact that this drill is for the purpose, in case of emergency, of making them go to their stations? - They may have been at their stations; they may not have had the order, or they may have had the order. 13269. You did not hear the order given? - No. 13270. Surely the proper thing is to close the bulkhead doors first? - Yes, but that is just according to what the collision was - if they thought it was serious. 13271. I suggest to you that if they had closed the bulkhead doors the ship might have been afloat yet? - I do not think so.

(The Witness withdrew.)

Mrs. ANNIE ROBINSON, Sworn.

Examined by Mr. RAYMOND ASQUITH.

13272. You were a First Class Stewardess on the “Titanic,” were you not? - Yes. 13273. And at the time the ship struck the iceberg I think you were in bed? - I was. 13274. Did you get up and dress? - I did. 13275. And did you afterwards go in the direction of the mail room? - Yes. 13276. What deck were you on? - E deck. 13277. When you got to the top of the stairs which lead down to the mail room what did you see? - I saw two mail-bags and a man’s Gladstone bag, and on looking down the staircase I saw water within six steps of coming on to E deck. 13278. That would mean that it had gone up to the top of the mail room and into the compartment above that? - Certainly. 13279. Are the stairs you are speaking of the ones by the side of the squash racquets court? - Yes. The Commissioner: I would like to follow this. I see the mail room on the plan. Mr. Raymond Asquith: I think I can point it out to you, my Lord.

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The Solicitor-General: Your Lordship will see that this confirms the theory of Wheat about the water rising to the top of E deck. Mr. Raymond Asquith: That is the mail room; above that is the post office, and above that is the squash rackets court. It was at the stairs there that the water was seen; the witness says that the water came to within six steps of the top of those stairs (Pointing on the cartoon). 13280. (The Commissioner - To the Witness.) About what time was this? - About half an hour after she struck. 13281. After the collision? - After the collision about half an hour. 13282. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Did you see the Captain and Mr. Andrews about this time? - The mail man passed along first and he returned with Mr. McElroy and the Captain and they went in the direction of the mail room, but that was before. 13283. It was seeing the Captain and Mr. Andrews going to the mail room that made you go there? - I followed after they had come back. The Commissioner: Are we to understand that at this time the mail room was covered with water? 13284. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Yes, and not only the mail room but the storey immediately above it, too. (To the Witness.) When you saw the water there I suppose you realised that things were rather serious? - I did. 13285. Did you go and look after your ladies? - I did. 13286. How many ladies were under your charge? - Seven ladies and one maid and a governess. 13287. Did you see other stewardesses doing the same thing, looking after their passengers? - The stewardess on my deck was doing exactly the same thing. 13288. Did you then go upstairs on to A deck? - I had to call a stewardess I had met on the boat on A deck. 13289. Were you told by a steward there to put on your coat and lifebelt? - Mr. Andrews told me first. 13290. Did Mr. Andrews tell you anything else? - Yes. Mr. Andrews told me to put my lifebelt on after I had been on E deck. 13291. Did he say something to you about blankets? - We had already got the blankets and the lifebelts out of the rooms which were unoccupied at the foot of the staircase. Mr. Andrews said to me, “put your lifebelt on and walk about and let the passengers see you.” I said to him, “It looks rather mean,” and he said, “No, put it on,” and then after that he said to me, “Well, if you value your life put your belt on.” 13292. Did you put your belt on and walk about in it? - I did. 13293. Did he say anything to you about Mr. Ismay? - No, Mr. Ismay’s name was never mentioned in my hearing. 13294. So far as you know were all the ladies on E deck warned by the stewardesses whose business it was to look after them? - Yes, and they were all saved, too. 13295. You told us you were responsible for seven or eight ladies; were they all saved? - They were. 13296. Eventually you were put into boat number 11? - Yes. The Solicitor-General: That is the one the last witness Wheat referred to. 13297. (Mr. Raymond Asquith - To the Witness.) I will not ask you about what happened in the boat, but there is one thing I should have asked you about what happened before; did you see the carpenter? - I did; he was the first man I saw. He came along when I was looking down at the water, and he had the lead line in his hand. 13298. Had he taken a sounding do you know? - I could not tell you that. 13299. Did he say anything to you? - No, the man looked absolutely bewildered, distracted. He did not speak. 13300. You think he looked alarmed? - He certainly was. 13301. When your boat left the ship was the band still playing? - It was. 13302. Can you remember at all what time it was when your boat left? - Well, I looked at my watch when the ship went down and it was twenty minutes to two. That was by altered time when we were in the boat, and I do not think we were in the boat more than three-quarters of an hour. 13303. You left about three-quarters of an hour before the ship went down? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

13304. Can you state at what time it was when Mr. Andrews said to you, “if you value your life put your lifebelt on”? - It was about half an hour when I saw the water on the deck, and I should say it would be about a quarter of an hour after that. 13305. About three-quarters of an hour after the collision you mean? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. COTTER.

13306. Have you ever been in a collision before? - Yes. 13307. What ship was that? The “Lake Champlain”? - Yes. 13308. Also an iceberg? - Yes. 13309. So that you knew exactly what to do on this occasion? - Yes. 13310. And you did it? - Yes.

Examined by Sir ROBERT FINLAY.

13311. When was it you were told to put on the lifebelt? You said that it was three-quarters of an hour after something? - I said it was three-quarters of an hour after I felt the shock of the collision. 13312. Did the people get into the boat in an orderly way? - Yes. 13313. Did you hear the band playing? - Yes. 13314. Was it still playing when you left the ship? - Yes it was. It was playing when I went up to A deck to call the other stewardess, and when I left the ship it was still playing.

(The Witness withdrew.)

WALTER WYNN, Sworn.

Examined by Mr. BUTLER ASPINALL.

13315. Were you serving as Quartermaster on the “Titanic” at the time of this accident? - I was. 13316. And I believe you were saved in boat 9, were you not? - Yes. 13317. Were you off watch at the time of the striking? - Yes. 13318. I think you were asleep and you were awakened? - Yes. 13319. I believe you got up, dressed, and did you go to the boat deck after a time? - No. 13320. I do not want to take you through the whole story, I presume it is quite unnecessary; after a time did you hear this, the Captain giving an order to you and another quartermaster, to go and get the two accident boats ready? - Yes.

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13321. I want to omit the earlier part, you see. Did you obey that order? - Yes. 13322. After that did you go and help to clear away at various lifeboats? - Yes. 13323. After that did you meet the Sixth Officer Mr. Moody, who told you to go to your own boat? - Yes. 13324. Did you know your own boat? - No. 13325. Did you ascertain what was your own boat then? - No, not then. 13326. Did you go to a boat? - Mr. Moody told me to go to number nine boat and take charge of number nine. 13327. Whether that was your right boat or not, you do not know? - It was all ready swinging out on the davits and he told me to take charge of No. 9, as I did not know my own boat. 13328. Did you take charge of No. 9? - I got in and assisted the ladies in; and when we started to lower away the boatswain’s mate got into the boat, and I handed charge over to him, and took an oar. 13329. That boat was lowered down to the water? - Yes. 13330. How many people were there in that boat? - Forty-two women, and I think about fourteen men. 13331. Were the men all passengers? - No. 13332. How were the men divided up? - There were about four stewards sitting in the bow and there were three seamen, and afterwards I heard one other man was a seaman that I did not know, and that made four. 13333. What were the rest? - They were men passengers. 13334. (The Commissioner.) That would be six passengers? - Yes. 13335. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Later on, were you saved and taken to the “Carpathia”? - I was. 13336. Before I get you on to the “Carpathia” I just want to ask you this one matter: While you were in the boat did you see any light or lights? - I did. 13337. What light or lights did you see? - I saw a red light first, and then the red light disappeared, and I saw a white one. 13338. What did you think the red light was? - I could not say; I put it down to a steamer. 13339. You thought it was the port light of a steamer? - Yes. 13340. How far away did you judge it to be? - About seven or eight miles. 13341. When you saw the white light did you ever see the white light at the same time as you were seeing the red light? Did you see them at the same time? - Yes, at first I did. 13342. (The Commissioner.) Then I do not understand it. I thought you first saw a red light, and then it disappeared, and then you saw a white light? - I saw the red and white, and then the red and white disappeared, and then I saw the white light remain. 13343. You saw both the red and the white light at the same time? - Yes. 13344. And then they both disappeared? - Yes; they both disappeared and left the white light. 13345. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) That does not do, you see. You saw a red light? - Yes. 13346. And you saw a white light? - Yes. 13347. Did you think at that time that these were the two lights of a steamer? - I did. 13348. (The Commissioner.) About 7 or 8 miles away? - Yes. 13349. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) After some little interval of time both those lights disappeared according to you? - Yes. 13350. After they disappeared, when next did you see any lights? - It went away, and then I saw the white light about 10 or 15 minutes afterwards again in the same direction. 13351. I think you mean this, do you not, that you assumed that the white light you saw on the later occasion was the white light you had been seeing before? - Or it might have been a stern light.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

13352. What are the duties of a Quartermaster? - To take the wheel and attend to the officers as a stand-by man, and when you have got the last trick of the wheel to go aft on the poop and stand by there during the whole watch, and in case of an accident, if a passenger falls overboard or attempts to commit suicide, to throw a lifebelt or a lifebuoy, and warn them on the bridge at once. 13353. With regard to this lifeboat number 9, had it its proper equipment? - We had no lamp and we had no compass. 13354. Had you oil? - No, we had no oil. 13355. Had you a sea anchor? - We had a sea anchor. 13356. And balers? - We had two balers. 13357. Of those two things you are certain that she had neither a compass nor a lamp? - No. I made sure in the morning at daylight. 13358. You have had a good deal of experience of the clearing of boats before starting on a voyage? - Yes. 13359. I want to ask you this; is it the usual practice to have those accessories in the lifeboat before you commence the voyage? - In some ships. 13360. Does the Superintendent of the Board of Trade usually examine the lifeboats? - Yes. 13361. Does he see whether or not the necessary equipment is in the lifeboat or available for it? - Sometimes you are told off to go with him, and if he asks for a certain thing you have to lift it out and show it to him. 13362. Have you had experience of a shipwreck before? - Yes. 13363. Was that in 1898? - Yes. 13364. What was the ship that was wrecked - The “Viendam,” belonging to the Holland-America Line. 13365. You were at that time an A.B. on the “St. Louis”? - Yes. 13366. Did you from the “St. Louis” rescue the passengers on the “Viendam”? - Yes. 13367. I want you to tell my Lord what kind of sea you had at the time. - It had been a hard blow and we had a very heavy swell; first we were down underneath the bilge of the ship and then up, catching hold of the children and putting them into the boat. 13368. Will you explain to his Lordship how your lifeboats behaved in that sea? - They behaved splendidly. The Commissioner: I cannot sit here to inquire into the circumstances of another wreck which happened twelve or fourteen years ago. Mr. Scanlan: I have been contending that lifeboats can be successfully manned even in a heavy sea if there is a proper crew. The Commissioner: Well ask him that question. 13369. (Mr. Scanlan.) Yes, my Lord. (To the Witness.) In your experience can a lifeboat be kept afloat in a heavy sea if she is properly manned and provisioned? - Yes, as long as she is not overloaded with too many passengers. What would you consider a sufficient crew for a lifeboat? The Commissioner: Would not that depend on the size of the lifeboat? 13370. (Mr. Scanlan - To the Witness.) For a lifeboat of the size of the boats you had on the “Titanic”? - To go away to rescue any people from another ship in distress you want between eight and ten men in the lifeboat. 13371. (The Commissioner.) I suppose if you put eight or ten men in the lifeboat to man it you could take fewer passengers? - You could take from 30 to 40. 13372. But I suppose if you only took a crew of three or four you could then take more passengers? - Oh, yes. 13373. (Mr. Scanlan.) Could three or four by any possibility manage a lifeboat in a heavy sea? - No. 13374. Do you know about the practice in regard to providing glasses for look-out men. Is it usual

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on other ships? - No. I do not think it is. 13375. For the man in the crow’s-nest? - No. 13376. Were you on the “Oceanic”? - Yes. 13377. Were glasses provided there? - Yes. 13378. Is it usual to station look-out men in the ships you have experience of in the bows? - Yes. 13379. As well as in the crow’s-nest? - Yes. 13380. (The Commissioner.) Always in foggy weather or hazy weather. 13381. (Mr. Scanlan.) Is it usual when there is ice about? - No.

Examined by Mr. ROCHE.

13382. The occasions you are speaking of when you like to have eight or ten men are when you are going away on an accident boat for some special service? - Yes, to the rescue. 13383. On this occasion, when the ship is being emptied as far as possible of passengers and other people, you had stewards on board your boat? - Yes. 13384. And firemen? - No. 13385. If you take eight or ten able seamen you will have, as my Lord has pointed out, so much less room for passengers and, of course, other persons, such as stewards or firemen? - Yes. 13386. For ordinary purposes, that is to say, for rowing a boat and so forth, the stewards and firemen take their turn at the oars with the other men? - Yes. 13387. And you find them quite competent for that purpose? - Yes, some of them.

Examined by Mr. LEWIS.

13388. How do you account for not knowing the number of your boat? - I had to go on duty on the morning of the 18th, and I went off to my station on the poop and we did not have any boat muster, and I did not take any notice on the list of the number of my boat. I did not go to the forecastle to find out. The list was in the forecastle. 13389. It is rather an important position for a quartermaster, is it not? - Yes. 13390. And you would be expected to know your number even more than an A.B., would you not? - No, not more. 13391. Is it customary for you to look at your boat list? - Yes. 13392. Do the other men ask your advice at all? You are of a higher rank than an A.B.? - Yes, but they do not ask any advice about anything. 13393. And you should make yourself acquainted with your boat number? - Yes, had I known. 13394. Did you immediately go on deck when you were wakened? - I went up on the fore-well deck and asked what was the matter. I saw a lot of men passengers there, and I saw the ice on the deck, and they pointed it out to me: “Look at that” they said. “We have just struck an iceberg.” Then I went down below and woke my two mates up, and then I dressed and walked on the bridge to await orders from the Captain. 13395. Did you have time to get your kit bag?- No, I took that up when I went down to get my knife. 13396. Did you place your kit bag in the boat? - I had two sets of underwear in my bag which I had never unpacked. I threw it into the first boat I came to when I was told to get into the boat. 13397. That was the boat you left in? - Yes. 13398. What happened to your kit bag? The Commissioner: Does it matter what happened to the kit bag? The Witness: I never saw it. 13399. (Mr. Lewis.) It would be a good size, would it not - a good long bag? - Not for the two sets of underwear I had. 13400. Is it not the fact that it was pitched off the “Carpathia” when the boat reached there? - That is right.

Examined by Sir ROBERT FINLAY.

13401. You have spoken about having eight or ten men for a lifeboat of a certain size, but I think you said that was for rescuing people from another ship? - Yes. 13402. That is a very different job from what it was this time? - Yes. 13403. There was no sea on? - No. 13404. Just one other question. You were asked whether a lifeboat properly manned could keep afloat all right even in a heavy sea? - Yes. 13405. The real difficulty in a heavy sea is getting the lifeboat down, is it not? - That is the real difficulty. 13406. And it is a nasty job if there is a heavy sea? - Yes. 13407. (The Commissioner.) Can you tell me - do not tell me unless you are able to tell me, but if you can tell me let me know - what was the carrying capacity of No. 9 lifeboat? - I really do not know.

(The Witness withdrew.)

(After a short adjournment.)

CHARLES HERBERT LIGHTOLLER, Sworn.

Examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL.

13408. You are Mr. Charles Herbert Lightoller, I think? - Yes. 13409. Were you Second Officer on the “Titanic”? - I was. 13410. I think you hold a Master’s certificate? - Yes. 13411. You passed for Master in 1899? - About that - yes. 13412. And do you also hold an extra-Master’s certificate? - Yes. 13413. Which you passed for in 1902? - Yes. 13414. How long have you been in the White Star Company’s employ? - Nearly 12 1/2 years. 13415. That would be since about 1900? - January, 1900. 13416. Sailing with that Company across the Atlantic many times, is most of your experience in the North Atlantic? - Most, yes. 13417. We will just get from you first the names of the officers, because you will have occasion to refer to them from time to time. Of course, Captain Smith we know of; he was the Commander? - Yes. 13418. Then next in order comes the Chief Officer? - Yes. 13419. Who was that? - Mr. Wilde. 13420. Then the First Officer? - Mr. Murdoch. 13421. All those three I think were lost? - They were.

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13422. Then you come next as Second Officer? - Yes. 13423. Who was the Third Officer? - Mr. Pitman. 13424. And the Fourth Officer? - Mr. Boxhall. 13425. And the fifth? - Mr. Lowe. 13426. And the sixth? - Mr. Moody. 13427. And I think there are a number of petty officers who come next - four of them? - Yes. 13428. Mr. Moody I think was not saved? - He was not. 13429. So it is Mr. Pitman, Mr. Boxhall, Mr. Lowe and yourself who were saved? - They are all the officers saved. 13430. One other thing I should have asked you about your position; I think you do hold the position of First Officer with the White Star? - Yes. 13431. But on this voyage you were Second Officer of the ship? - Yes. 13432. I will ask you the details later on, but I will ask you this now: Were you present at the trial trip of the “Titanic” at Belfast? - Yes. 13433. And I think, with the exception of Mr. Wilde, all the officers whose names you have mentioned were present on that trial trip? - Yes, they were. 13434. And Mr. Wilde joined the ship a little later? - Yes. 13435. Up to the time this vessel started her voyage from Southampton what was the greatest speed she had attained in practice? - That is from Belfast round to Southampton we averaged about 18 knots. 13436. That is the average. Do you know what was the greatest she had got to? - Perhaps 18 ½’ I do not think she got much higher than that. 13437. You left Southampton, as we know, on 10th April, and you went across to Cherbourg? - Yes. 13438. You got there on the evening of the same day? - Yes. 13439. And, I think, left Cherbourg about 9 o’clock on the 10th? - About that. 13440. And went to Queenstown? - Yes. 13441. When was it you left Queenstown? - About 2 p.m., as near as I can remember, on the following day. 13442. On the 11th? - Yes. 13443. Just give me, if you will, the arrangement about the watches between the Chief Officer, the First Officer, and yourself. I suppose you would count as the three Senior Officers? - Yes, exactly. 13444. How was that? - The Chief Officer had from 2 until 6 a.m. and p.m.; the Second Officer - 13445. That is you? - Yes, myself. The Second Officer relieved the Chief at 6 o’clock and was on deck until 10 - 6 to 10 a.m., and p.m.. The First Officer was on deck from 10 to 2 a.m. and p.m. 13446. Then the junior officers would be divided into watches, I suppose, and would serve with one or other of the seniors? - They are divided into watches - 3 to 5 and 4 to 6, 4 hours on and 4 hours off, with a dog watch, that is, the watch from 4 to 8 p.m., is divided into what we call the dog watches, 4 to 6 and 6 to 8. 13447. We will go to Sunday, April 14th. Your first watch, the morning watch, would be from 6 to 10, as I follow you? - Yes. 13448. Then, having completed that watch, did you come to the bridge again about luncheon time? - Yes. 13449. Just tell us about it? - Lunch is at half-past 12. I relieve the First Officer, who has his lunch at half-past 12, and he comes on deck again about 1 o’clock or five minutes past; then I have mine. 13450. It really means that there is half an hour out of the First Officer’s watch? - Yes. 13451. Now, on this day, the 14th of April, did you follow that course? - Yes. 13452. And relieved Mr. Murdoch from 12.30 to about 1? - Yes. 13453. Do you remember Captain Smith showing you something during that time? - Yes. 13454. Just tell us what it was? - Captain Smith came on the bridge during the time that I was relieving Mr. Murdoch. In his hands he had a wireless message, a Marconigram. He came across the bridge, and holding it in his hands told me to read it. 13455. He showed it to you, I suppose? - Yes, exactly; he held it out in his hand and showed it to me. The actual wording of the message I do not remember. 13456. Did you see whether it was about ice? - It had reference to ice. 13457. Do you remember between what meridians? - Yes, I particularly made a mental note of the meridians - 49 to 51. 13458. That would be 49 to 51 W.? - Exactly. 13459. We have the message. I will just find it and read it to you, and perhaps you will be able to tell me if that is right. Do you know from what ship the message came? - No, I cannot remember the ship. The Solicitor-General: It is better to have it now. Sir Robert Finlay: Yes, I think we had better have it, and the ship it came from. The Solicitor-General: My recollection is that the Attorney-General read it in opening. The Commissioner: What time was it? 13460. (The Solicitor-General.) So far, my Lord, he has said it was between 12.30 and one in the middle of the day. (To the Witness.) Can you fix at all as between those times? - About 12.45 as near as I can remember. 13461. Very well; about a quarter to 1? - Yes. Mr. Laing: I have the wording of it. The Solicitor-General: Will you hand it to me? Mr. Laing: Yes. 13462. (The Solicitor-General.) I think this is the message, and perhaps I can read it to the gentleman and he will tell us if it sounds like it. (To the Witness.) We have independent evidence of a message being sent from the “Caronia.” “West-bound steamers report bergs, growlers and field ice in 42 N. from 49 to 51 W.”? - I think that is the message that I referred to as near as I can remember. The Solicitor-General: This witness says he was shown that about a quarter to 1, my Lord. Your Lordship will find the evidence of Captain Barr, the captain of the “Caronia,” who was interposed on Friday, on page 273 of the print. The question is 12307. The Attorney-General asked Captain Barr, “On the morning of the 14th of April, that is, on the Sunday morning, do you remember sending this Marconigram to the ‘Titanic’: ‘Westbound steamers report bergs, growlers, and field ice in 42 N., from 49 to 51 W.?’ - (A.) Yes, I remember sending it. (Q.) That is sent, I see from your note, at 9 o’clock in the morning.” That is the time when the message was sent from the “Caronia.” The Commissioner: Does it go on to say that that message was acknowledged? 13463. (The Solicitor-General.) Yes, my Lord. Then the next question and answer is, “And did you receive a reply at 9.44 a.m. your ship’s time? - (A.) Yes, as per that statement.” (Q.) The reply is, “Thanks for message and information. Have had variable weather throughout - Smith”? (To the Witness.) Now the “Caronia” as we know was coming from New York to Europe and as you see there is the message. The acknowledgment is 9.44 a.m. “Caronia’s” time. You had not heard anything about that before you went off your watch at 10 o’clock? - No. 13464. Can you help us: Would 9.44 a.m. Caronia’s” time coming from New York be likely to be later than your 10 o’clock watch coming to an end? You see you went off duty at ten. - Yes. 13465. (The Commissioner.) Did Captain Smith tell you when he had received the Marconigram? - No, my Lord. 13466. (The Solicitor-General.) And the first you knew of it was when Captain Smith showed it you at about a quarter to one? - Yes. 13467. So far as your knowledge goes is that the first information as to ice which you had heard of as being received by the “Titanic”? - That is the first I have any recollection of.

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13468. What time of day would it be that your ship’s course would be set? - At noon. 13469. Would that be done by the Commander? - [No Answer.] 13470. Add anything if there is anything we ought to know. Is that the incident as it occurred then? - That is the whole of the incident, when the Commander came out and showed me the wireless, yes. 13471. And you told us you were relieving Mr. Murdoch while he was away at lunch. Did he come back? - Yes, when he came back I mentioned the ice to him. 13472. When you mentioned this message about the ice to Mr. Murdoch when he came back at 1 o’clock did you gather from Mr. Murdoch that it was news to him or did you gather from him that he had heard of it before? - That I really could not say, whether it was fresh news to him or not; I should judge that it would have been, but I really could not say from his expression - not from what I remember. 13473. Your impression is that it was news to him? - Probably. 13474. Then did you leave the bridge at that time? - Yes. 13475. And your watch of course would not return until six in the evening? - Exactly. 13476. (The Commissioner.) Can you tell me what the ships course was at that time? - The compass course? 13477. Yes. - No, I cannot remember what it was. 13478. (The Solicitor-General.) You are able to tell us a little later in the day what it was? - The true course. 13479. Can you tell us the true course of the ship at this time? - No, I am afraid I cannot. 13480. Here was a message shown you which referred to ice in latitude 42 N? - Yes. 13481. Do you recollect, or can you help us at all, did that indication 42 N. indicate to you that it was near where you were likely to go? - It would, had I taken particular notice of the latitude, though as a matter of fact, latitude with regard to ice conveys so very little. 13482. Is that because it tends to set north or south? - North and south, yes. 13483. (The Commissioner.) I do not follow that? - We take very little notice of the latitude because it conveys very little. You cannot rely on latitude. 13484. (The Solicitor-General.) For ice? - Yes. 13485. (The Solicitor-General.) He answered that “because the ice tends to set north and south.” (To the Witness.) Then do you attach more importance to the longitude? - Far more. 13486. I notice your recollection of the message is you recollect 49 and 51 W.? - Distinctly. 13487. That is longitude. Did you form any sort of impression at that time as to what time of day or night you were likely to reach the area indicated? - Not at that time. 13488. I know you worked it out, or helped to work it out later? - It was worked out. 13489. But you did not form any opinion at that time? - Not at that time. 13490. As far as you are concerned is there anything you deem important to tell us as between one o’clock and 6 o’clock when you came on duty? - No, I cannot remember anything of importance. 13491. (The Commissioner.) At the time this message was given to you by Captain Smith, how many hours steaming would you be away from the ice-field? - I did not calculate it at that time; later I told one of the junior officers to work out about what time we should reach the ice region, and he told me about 11 o’clock. 13492. At night? - This was after I came on deck again though, at 6 o’clock. I knew that we should not be in the vicinity of the ice before I came on deck again. I roughly ran that off in my mind. 13493. (The Solicitor-General.) That is what I meant? - Yes. I ran that roughly off in my mind - the matter of degrees. 13494. When you saw this message at a quarter to one you saw it was important but you thought the position could not be reached until your watch came round again? - I was sure of that. 13495. You came on duty again at 6 o’clock? - At 6 o’clock. 13496. In the afternoon. That would be to relieve Chief Officer Mr. Wilde, as I follow you? - Yes. 13497. Did he hand the ship over to you at 6 o’clock? - At 6 o’clock, yes. 13498. Can you tell us what was the course of the ship when she was handed over to you at 6? - I cannot remember the compass course. I know from calculations made afterwards that we were making S. 86 true. 13499. S. 86 W.? - Yes. 13500. That is within four degrees of due W true? - Yes. The Commissioner: Give me that again. The Solicitor-General: S. 86 W. true. That is only four degrees from due west. The Commissioner: It is what I should call making a westerly course. 13501. (The Solicitor-General.) Yes, my Lord. I think I am right, and Sir Robert confirms me. The Quartermaster at the wheel who gave evidence, who was at the wheel at the time of the disaster, said he was steering by compass a course of N. 71 W., so presumably N. 71 W. is the same thing as what this gentleman speaks of as S. 86 W. true. The Witness: Pretty nearly. The compass course is not the compass we go by. I believe by standard we were steering N. 73. 86 true I know it was, and I think that works out as 73 by compass, and 71 was the steering compass. 13502. Did you learn whether while you had been off duty during the afternoon any further information had reached the “Titanic” about ice? - Not that I remember. 13503. Of course, in the ordinary course, Mr. Wilde would pass on to you any information that was necessary to help you during your watch? - Yes. 13504. And you have told us what happened? - Yes. 13505. Now what did you notice about the speed of your vessel? - As far as I could tell, her speed was normal. 13506. Were they telegraphed at full speed ahead? - At full speed. 13507. (The Commissioner.) What do you mean by normal? - Full speed. 13508. What is full speed; can you give me how many knots? - We were steaming, as near as I can tell from what I remember of the revolutions - I believe they were 75 - and I think that works out at about 21 1/2 knots the ship was steaming. 13509. (The Solicitor-General.) Is it the regular course for a message to be sent to the engine room from time to time, and a report to be got as to how many revolutions she is making? - As a rule, at the end of the watch, the junior officer rings up the engine room and obtains the average revolutions for the preceding watch. 13510. And is that one of the matters that would be brought before your notice when you go on duty? - No, not necessarily. It is entered up in the logbook, and anyone who wishes to know can merely ask and the information is given him. 13511. When you say your recollection is that it was 75 revolutions, just help us. What is it you have in your mind? - I could not say where I got that from, but it is in my mind that it was about 75 revolutions. 13512. In the course of the voyage across the Atlantic, had the engines, as far as you know, exceeded 75 at any time? - On one occasion I have a recollection of one side turning 76, not necessarily both sides though. 13513. That would be one or other of the sets of reciprocating engines? - Port or starboard reciprocating, yes. 13514. Subject to that as far as you know, did she ever attain a greater number of revolutions than 75? - Not to my knowledge, and I think I should have heard of it if she had. 13515. And during your watch which extended from 6 till 10, did she maintain the same speed, as far as you know? - As far as I know. 13516. Then who would be on the bridge - is it one or two of the junior officers would be on the bridge with you? - Two junior officers on watch at all times.

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13517. There would be a Quartermaster at the wheel? - And a stand-by Quartermaster. 13518. Another Quartermaster standing by? - Exactly. 13519. And there would be two look-out men in the crow’s-nest? - At all times. 13520. What was the practice in the “Titanic” as far as this voyage is concerned about having a look-out man anywhere else? - In anything but clear weather we carry extra look-outs. 13521. But where do you put them? - If the weather is fine, that is to say if the sea allows it, we place them near the stem head; when the weather does not allow us placing them at the stem head, then probably on the bridge. 13522. And as far as your watch was concerned, 6 to 10 on the evening of April 14th, was there any look-out except the two men in the crow’s-nest? - No. 13523. What was the weather? - Perfectly clear and fine. 13524. Had there been, as far as you remember, any occasion since she left Southampton to have extra look-out men? - Yes, and we had had them. 13525. And you had had them? - Yes. 13526. But at this time it was clear and fine? - Yes. 13527. Of course the sea was calm? - Comparatively smooth. 13528. Could you see the stars? - Perfectly clear. There was not a cloud in the sky. 13529. There was no moon, I think? - No moon. 13530. During your watch was any change made in the course? - Not to my recollection. 13531. Then when you had taken the ship over from Mr. Wilde and gathered this information, I think you gave some directions to one of the junior officers? - I directed the Sixth Officer to let me know at what time we should reach the vicinity of the ice. The junior officer reported to me, “About 11 o’clock.” 13532. Do you recollect which of the junior officers it was? - Yes, Mr. Moody, the sixth. 13533. That would involve his making some calculations, of course? - Yes. 13534. Had this Marconigram about the ice with the meridians on it been put up; was it on any notice board, or anything of the sort? - That I could not say with any degree of certainty. Most probably, in fact very probably, almost certainly, it would be placed on the notice board for that purpose in the chart room. 13535. At any rate when you gave Mr. Moody those directions he had the material to work on? - Exactly. 13536. And he calculated and told you about 11 o’clock, you would be near the ice? - Yes. 13537. That is to say an hour after your watch finished? - Yes. I might say as a matter of fact I have come to the conclusion that Mr. Moody did not take the same Marconigram which Captain Smith had shown me on the bridge because on running it up just mentally, I came to the conclusion that we should be to the ice before 11 o’clock, by the Marconigram that I saw. 13538. (The Commissioner.) In your opinion when in point of fact would you have reached the vicinity of the ice? - I roughly figured out about half-past nine. 13539. Then had Moody made a mistake? - I should not say a mistake, only he probably had not noticed the 49º wireless; there may have been others, and he may have made his calculations from one of the other Marconigrams. 13540. Do you know which other Marconigrams he would have to work from? - No, my Lord. I have no distinct recollection of any other Marconigrams. 13541. Because it is suggested to me that there was no Marconigram which would indicate arrival at the ice-field at 11 o’clock? - Well, my Lord, as far as my recollection carries me, Mr. Moody told me 11, and I came to that conclusion that he had probably used some other Marconigram. 13542. It did not agree with your conclusion? - No. 13543. (The Solicitor-General.) Your Lordship will find in the print, at pages 12 and 13, when the Attorney-General was opening another Marconigram from the “Baltic.” I would like to follow this a little. I think my Lord will agree. (To the Witness.) You have just said you came to the conclusion that Mr. Moody had been working on some message other than the one Captain Smith had shown you? - Exactly. 13544. When he came to you on your watch - of course, you are responsible up to 10 o’clock? - Yes. 13545. When he came to you on your watch and said you would get to the ice, as he calculated about 11, did you, as far as you remember, say anything to him about it? - No. 13546. It was important to you? - I quite see your point, and I had reasons for not doing so. As far as I remember he was busy - what on I cannot recollect, and I thought I would not bother him just at that time. He was busy with some calculations, probably stellar calculations or bearings, and I had run it up in my mind, and I was quite assured that we should be up to 49 degrees somewhere about half-past 9. 13547. Then you mean at that time when he said 11 o’clock you had already formed a very rough judgment that you would get to meridian 49 deg. by about half-past nine? - No, not till afterwards. 13548. Was it after he reported to you about his calculation, about 11 o’clock, that you checked it in your head? - Yes. 13549. (The Commissioner.) I have taken it down differently. I had understood from you that when Moody told you that you would reach this ice-field about 11 o’clock, you had already calculated in your own mind that you would get there about 9.30? - No, my Lord, I am sorry I conveyed a wrong impression. 13550. I have no doubt you are right, and I am wrong about it, but when did you come to the conclusion that you would get there as soon as 9.30? - I really could not tell you the exact time. It was some time about 7 or 8 o’clock, probably. I really cannot remember, but I know it was after Mr. Moody had given me this time of his. 13551. I do not know what time it was that Moody told you you would reach the ice at 11? - It was some time shortly after that I came on deck. I cannot remember the exact time. 13552. (The Solicitor-General.) When you got this time suggested to you, 11 o’clock, as I follow you, you made the calculation in your head? - Exactly. 13553. You did not make a calculation on paper? - None whatever. 13554. I daresay you can make the calculation back for us now. - When the “Titanic” did strike the iceberg it was in longitude 50° 14’ W. 13555. So she had passed the 49th meridian and passed the 50th? - Exactly. 13556. If she struck the iceberg at 50º 14’ W. at 11.40, 20 minutes to 12, given her speed, it is not difficult to say approximately when she passed the 49th meridian? - It works out somewhere about half-past 9. 13557. That is what I thought. Then, of course, that was very important for you, as you were on the bridge and in charge until 10 o’clock? - Yes. 13558. And being on the bridge, and in charge, would it be your responsibility to determine any question about reduction of speed? - If I thought it necessary I should advise the Commander. 13559. But you thought the weather was clear enough and you could see? - Perfectly clear. 13560. (The Commissioner.) What is a growler? - A growler is really the worst form of ice. It is a larger berg melted down, or I might say a solid body of ice which is lower down to the water and more difficult to see than field ice, pack ice, floe ice, or icebergs. 13561. You did not know but what there might be growlers there. They are not nearly so visible as an iceberg, are they? - No, naturally they will not be - that is, to distinguish them from icebergs with regard to size. 13562. A growler, I understand, is an iceberg which is very much submerged in the water and shows very little on the surface. Is that so? -

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Their relative amounts above water and below are naturally the same. 13563. Yes, they are; but an iceberg is a mountain of ice standing up out of the water? - Exactly. 13564. A growler is the same thing, but instead of standing high out of the water it stands a very little way out of the water; is that so? - Yes, that is so, my Lord. 13565. Now can you see a growler ahead of you nearly so well as you could see an iceberg? - No, my Lord. 13566. Now when you were in the vicinity of the ice, as you believed you were at 9.30 entering the dangerous field, did not it occur to you that you might run foul of a growler? - No, my Lord, I judged I should see it with sufficient distinctness to define it - any ice that was large enough to damage the ship. 13567. (The Solicitor-General.) 21 knots is about 700 yards a minute. Is your view that you could see a growler at a safe distance at nighttime going at that pace? - I judged that I could see a growler at a mile and a half, more probably two miles. 13568. (The Commissioner.) Is this leading to the suggestion that the look-out men are to blame? - Not at all, my Lord. I must explain this if you will allow me. The Commissioner: Perhaps I interrupted. 13569. (The Solicitor-General.) I am glad he should add it. (To the Witness.) Tell us what you were going to say? - In the event of meeting ice there are many things we look for. In the first place a slight breeze. Of course, the stronger the breeze the more visible will the ice be, or rather the breakers on the ice. Therefore at any time when there is a slight breeze you will always see at nighttime a phosphorescent line round a berg, growler, or whatever it may be; the slight swell which we invariably look for in the North Atlantic causes the same effect, the break on the base of the berg, so showing a phosphorescent glow. All bergs - all ice more or less have a crystallised side. 13570. It is white? - Yes; it has been crystallised through exposure and that in all cases will reflect a certain amount of light, what is termed ice-blink, and that ice-blink from a fairly large berg you will frequently see before the berg comes above the horizon. 13571. Now let me follow. Was there any breeze on this night? - When I left the deck at 10 o’clock there was a slight breeze - Oh, pardon me, no. I take that back. No it was calm, perfectly calm. 13572. And there was no breeze. Was there any? - As far as we could see from the bridge the sea was comparatively smooth. Not that we expected it to be smooth, because looking from the ship’s bridge very frequently with quite a swell on the sea will appear just as smooth as a billiard table, perfectly smooth; you cannot detect the swell. The higher you are the more difficult it is to detect a slight swell. 13573. That means, then, does it not, that if you are on the bridge and you are relying on the fact that there may be a slight swell you really cannot tell from the bridge whether there is a swell or not - a slight swell? - We look at it rather the other way - that, though the sea may appear smooth, we pretty well know that there is a swell, though it may not be visible to the eye, nor yet have any effect on the ship. It is a most rare occurrence - 13574. You mean there nearly always is a swell in the North Atlantic? - This is the first time in my experience in the Atlantic in 24 years, and I have been going across the Atlantic nearly all the time, of seeing an absolutely flat sea. 13575. Do you agree from that experience that this was an occasion when it was an absolutely flat sea? - Absolutely flat. 13576. (The Commissioner.) Not in fact, but to all appearance? - In fact, my Lord. The Solicitor-General: He means in fact, my Lord. 13577. (The Commissioner.) Do you mean there was no swell at all? - I mean to say that the sea was so absolutely flat that when we lowered the boats down we had to actually overhaul the tackles to unhook them, because there was not the slightest lift on the boat to allow for slacking, unhooked. 13578. (The Solicitor-General.) You have told me about the speed and about the direction. Now, there is a third thing. What about the temperature? - The temperature had fallen considerably. As a matter of fact I happen to know exactly how much because when I relieved Mr. Murdoch after dinner he made the remark to me that the temperature had dropped 4 degrees whilst I was away at dinner. 13579. This is when you are at dinner in the middle of your watch? - In the middle of my watch. 13580. He came and took your place? - Yes. 13581. Your watch is from 6 to 10? - Yes. 13582. What you have described hitherto, noticing the course and speed and giving directions to the junior officer and getting his calculations, did that happen before you went off to dinner? - As far as I remember I asked for these calculations immediately after coming on deck. Yes, I think I am right in saying that I asked for these calculations immediately after coming on deck. 13583. That would be just after six o’clock? - Yes, I have got it, I think. I asked for the calculations immediately after coming on deck and they were given to me about half an hour or three-quarters of an hour afterwards. It is very difficult to remember. The Solicitor-General: I quite follow, and you are helping us considerably. 13584. (The Commissioner.) Would that be about seven o’clock? - No, I do not think that fits in with the time I went to dinner. 13585. When did you go to dinner? - Dinner is at half-past six. 13586. Then it would be more like a quarter to eight? - No I did not go to dinner at half-past six my Lord. Mr. Murdoch goes to dinner at half-past six and relieves me, I think, at five past seven, and I relieved him, I think, at 7.35. 13587. (The Solicitor-General.) That means that Mr. Murdoch, the First Officer, would be taking your place for half an hour between seven and half-past? - Exactly. 13588. And after that you were in continuous charge, in fact, until ten o’clock? - Exactly. 13589. (The Commissioner.) And from 7 to half-past seven there was a fall of four degrees in the temperature? - Yes, my Lord. 13590. (The Solicitor-General.) Did you observe that at the time as something pretty sharp? - Yes, a pretty sharp drop. It had been going down previously to that before I left the deck. 13591. When did you notice the fall in the temperature beginning seriously? - Probably about half-past six. 13592. Very well; the fall in the temperature began at half-past six and a drop of four degrees between seven and half-past? - Yes. 13593. Did you notice what the actual temperature was a little later by the thermometer? - Yes, later on in the watch I think the Quartermaster two or three times told me what the temperature was in order that I might know when it got near to freezing point to send word to the engine room and the carpenter with regard to fresh water. 13594. Can you tell me what was the temperature which you were given and at what time? - When Mr. Murdoch mentioned it to me as far as I recollect it had fallen from 43 degrees to 39. 13595. This is Fahrenheit I suppose, is it not? - Yes; and then I sent word down to the carpenter about nine o’clock; it was then 33 degrees, and I sent word to the carpenter and to the engine room - for the carpenter to look after his fresh water; that is to say, he has to drain it off to prevent the pipes freezing - and to the engine room for them to take the necessary precautions for the winches. 13596. It is 33 degrees at nine o’clock. That is only one degree above freezing? - One degree, exactly. 13597. What did that circumstance, the serious drop in temperature, indicate to you as regards the probable presence of ice? - Nothing. 13598. You do not think it indicates anything? - Nothing whatever; you may have it any time in

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the year, summer and winter, going across the Atlantic. It is not quite so noticeable in winter because the air generally is cold. 13599. (The Commissioner.) That may be, but is it not the fact that when you are approaching large bodies of ice the temperature falls? - Never in my experience, my Lord. 13600. It does not go up I suppose? - Well, though it may seem strange, it is quite possible for it to go up if the ice happens to be floating in slightly warmer water, or if the wind were to come round from the southward. You will frequently be passing through a cold stream, and if the wind comes from the southward you will almost invariably look out for a fog, owing to the warm wind striking the cold water. The atmosphere may be comparatively warm. The moment the wind comes back again to the northward you expect the weather to clear, and it will get very much colder, of course. 13601. (The Solicitor-General.) I have put together the facts you have given me. Have I got them right - that there is a drop of 10 degrees Fahrenheit in the course of two hours? You say it was 43 degrees when you went to dinner? - That is 7 o’clock. 13602. And it was 33 degrees when you sent the message to the carpenter? - About 9 o’clock; that is right. 13603. That is a drop of 10 degrees Fahrenheit in two hours? - Yes. 13604. And a continuous drop? - Yes. 13605. Does not that indicate anything at all as regards the probable presence of ice? - Absolutely no indication whatever. 13606. Then I may take it that that fact of the temperature did not in itself make you any more cautious? - Oh not the slightest. 13607. Well, it was now nine o’clock, and you had worked out in your head that you would probably get the 49 degrees meridian by half-past nine? - Just let me correct that. It must have been a few minutes before nine, because I remember the Commander came on the bridge at five minutes to nine, and I told him then that I had already sent word round, so it was perhaps ten minutes or a quarter to nine, as a matter of minutes. 13608. Then that is a drop of ten degrees in less than two hours? - Slightly less. 13609. (The Commissioner.) Did you draw his attention to the drop in the temperature? - Yes, my Lord. 13610. Was anything said between you and him about it? - Yes, my Lord. 13611. What was said? - The Commander when he came on the bridge remarked that it was cold, and naturally I agreed with him, and also I mentioned in the course of conversation that I had sent round - I think I told him the temperature, and I told him I had sent to the engine room and the carpenter, merely to indicate that the necessary duty had been done. 13612. Is that all that took place? - No, my Lord. We had a conversation with regard to the weather. 13613. But had you no conversation with regard to ice? - Well, I was coming to that, my Lord. 13614. (The Solicitor-General.) Had not you better tell us as accurately as you can what passed between him and you when he came on the bridge at five minutes to nine? - I will. 13615. If you please. - At five minutes to nine, when the Commander came on the bridge (I will give it to you as near as I remember) he remarked that it was cold, and as far as I remember I said, “Yes, it is very cold, Sir. In fact,” I said, “it is only one degree above freezing. I have sent word down to the carpenter and rung up the engine room and told them that it is freezing or will be during the night.” We then commenced to speak about the weather. He said, “There is not much wind.” I said, “No, it is a flat calm as a matter of fact.” He repeated it; he said, “A flat calm.” I said, “Yes, quite flat, there is no wind.” I said something about it was rather a pity the breeze had not kept up whilst we were going through the ice region. Of course, my reason was obvious; he knew I meant the water ripples breaking on the base of the berg. 13616. You said it was a pity there was not a breeze? - Yes, I said, “It is a pity there is not a breeze,” and we went on to discuss the weather. He was then getting his eyesight, you know, and he said, “Yes, it seems quite clear,” and I said, “Yes, it is perfectly clear.” It was a beautiful night, there was not a cloud in the sky. The sea was apparently smooth, and there was no wind, but at that time you could see the stars rising and setting with absolute distinctness. 13617. On the horizon? - On the horizon. We then discussed the indications of ice. I remember saying, “In any case there will be a certain amount of reflected lights from the bergs.” He said, “Oh, yes, there will be a certain amount of reflected light.” I said, or he said; blue was said between us - that even though the blue side of the berg was towards us, probably the outline, the white outline would give us sufficient warning, that we should be able to see it at a good distance, and, as far as we could see, we should be able to see it. Of course it was just with regard to that possibility of the blue side being towards us, and that if it did happen to be turned with the purely blue side towards us, there would still be the white outline. 13618. (The Commissioner.) Then you had both made up your minds at that time that you were about to encounter icebergs? - No, my Lord, not necessarily. 13619. It sounds very like it, you know? - No, not necessarily, my Lord. 13620. You were both talking about what those icebergs would show to you? - As a natural precaution. We knew we were in the vicinity of ice, and though you cross the Atlantic for years and have ice reported and never see it, and at other times it is not reported and you do see it, you nevertheless do take necessary precautions, all you can, to make perfectly sure that the weather is clear and that the officers understand the indications of ice and all that sort of thing. That is a necessary precaution that is always taken. 13621. (The Solicitor-General.) There are one or two things about that I should like to be clear about. I caught you saying that you or the Captain said it was a pity there was not a little breeze because it would have shown an iceberg? - Yes, it would have assisted. 13622. Then you both realised at the time, did you, that since it was a flat calm it would be more difficult to see the ice? - As far as the case of the berg was concerned, yes, it would be more difficult; naturally you would not see the water breaking on it if there were no wind; and so you would not have that to look for. 13623. Do you remember when the Captain was on the bridge with you, did you tell him that as you made it out you would get to the danger zone, to the ice region about half-past nine? - No. 13624. Was anything said about the time when you would get to it? - Not that I remember. 13625. Mr. Moody had made a calculation which he had reported to you and you thought his calculation gave the position too much west? - Yes. 13626. Did not you say anything about that to the Captain? - Oh, no. 13627. Had you had any further calculation made at all? - No. 13628. What was the basis upon which you were proceeding? Were you proceeding on the basis that you would expect to reach this region by half-past nine, or that you would not expect to reach it until 11 o’clock? - I was working on the half-past nine. I probably thought that Mr. Moody had based his calculation on the actual position of some berg or number of bergs. 13629. How long was the Captain on the bridge with you? You say he came on the bridge with you about five minutes to nine? - About 25 minutes or half an hour. 13630. If it was half an hour that would carry you to within five minutes of half-past nine? - Yes. 13631. And during that time whilst he was with

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you was there any discussion between you at all as to speed? - None. 13632. You were going full speed ahead at this time? - Yes. 13633. About 21 1/2 knots as you think? - Yes. 13634. And no question was raised between you as to speed at all? - No question at all. 13635. The Captain left you about 20 or 25 past 9, you say. Did he say where he was going to, or where he had been, and so on? - Yes. The Captain said, “If it becomes at all doubtful” - I think those are his words - “If it becomes at all doubtful let me know at once; I will be just inside.” 13636. (The Commissioner.) If what becomes doubtful? - The general conditions, my Lord, I suppose he would mean - if it were at all doubtful about the distance I could see, principally. 13637. You were relying at this time exclusively upon the look-out; you were not taking any measures to reduce the speed? - None, my Lord. 13638. And therefore you were relying for safety entirely on the look-out? - Yes. 13639. Now tell me again what this observation of the Captain meant, because I do not understand it. - With regard to the word “doubtful”? 13640. Yes; what did he mean? - It is rather difficult to define. It means to say if I had any doubt at all in my mind. 13641. What about? - About the weather, about the distance I could see - principally those two conditions it would refer to. If there were the slightest degree of haze to arise, the slightest haze whatever, if that were to any degree noticeable, to immediately notify him. 13642. (The Solicitor-General.) I will take what you have just said. You said if the slightest degree of haze was to arise - that would be what was meant - you were to notify him? - Immediately; yes. 13643. And then did you understand, and do you represent, that if the slightest degree of haze arose it would at once become dangerous? - Well, it would render it more difficult to see the ice, though not necessarily dangerous. If we were coming on a large berg there might be a haze, as there frequently is in that position, where warm and cold streams are intermixing. You will very frequently get a little low-lying haze, smoke we call it, lying on the water perhaps a couple of feet. 13644. Do not misunderstand me. I am not suggesting that it would be necessarily dangerous in the sense that there would necessarily be an accident, but there would be a risk of danger, would not there? - If there was any haze? 13645. Yes? - Undoubtedly. 13646. The slightest haze? - The slightest haze would render the situation far more difficult. 13647. Far more dangerous? - Far more dangerous if there were ice. 13648. You told me that with those conditions of the weather you think that a growler might have been seen a mile and a half? - Yes. 13649. If you could see a low-lying growler in those conditions a mile and a half, how far off do you think you could see an iceberg? - A good sized iceberg? 13650. Yes. An iceberg big enough to throw ice upon your fore deck? - Well a matter of 50 feet. 13651. 50 feet? You mean an iceberg 50 feet out of the water? - Yes. 13652. How far off would you have seen an iceberg as big as that? - At least a mile and a half or two miles - that is more or less the minimum. You could very probably see it a far greater distance than that. If it were a very white berg, flat topped or the flat side towards you, under normal conditions you would probably see that berg 3 or 4 miles away. 13653. I think I must press you a little about this. The Captain leaves you and says, “If it becomes at all doubtful let me know at once”? - Yes. 13654. Surely that had reference to the risk of ice had it not? - Yes, undoubtedly; undoubtedly that was referring to ice. 13655. Just taxing your memory now, do not you think there was any further conversation between you and the Captain during that half hour, about the risk of ice and the presence of ice? - I have no doubt there was more conversation, most probably we were conversing the whole time the Commander was on the bridge, but the actual words I really cannot recall to my mind except what I have given you. 13656. What was the very first thing you did after the Captain went in about half-past nine? Did not you send a message to the crow’s-nest? - Yes, I did. 13657. What was it? - To keep a sharp look out for ice, particularly small ice and growlers. 13658. That was half-past nine? - And I think I told them to pass that word on until daylight - to keep a sharp look out till daylight. 13659. Now did you send that message to the crow’s-nest immediately after the conversation with the Captain? - Shortly afterwards I think it was. 13660. (The Commissioner.) It was only five minutes you know between the Captain leaving the bridge and your sending that message, if you have given the right times? - Yes, it was probably about that, my Lord, as near as I can remember. 13661. Now did you send that message in consequence of your conversation with the Captain? - No, I thought it was a necessary precaution. That is a message I always send along when approaching the vicinity of ice or a derelict, as the case may be. If I know we are approaching the vicinity of a derelict, I send the word along to let them know what to look out for. It is just the same with regard to a Lightship, say the Nantucket Lightship; I tell them to keep a sharp look out for the Nantucket Lightship to give them an idea what they are looking for. 13662. What time was it dark on this night? - I think about half-past six, between half-past six and seven. 13663. (The Solicitor-General.) Was this the first time during this watch, six to ten, when you had sent any message to the crow’s-nest about any ice? - The first; yes. 13664. And was it the only time as far as you are concerned? - The only time. 13665. But as you have explained to us, it was a message you said they were to pass on to the men who relieved them? - Yes. 13666. Cannot you tell us at all whether that message was in any way caused by or suggested by the conversation you had with the Captain? - No, in no way whatever. It was not. I see your point, that having been talking with the Commander I should naturally take this precaution, but I may say that it was in no way suggested by the conversation with the Commander. 13667. Very well, I think you caused that message to be sent to the crow’s-nest by one of the junior officers who was with you on the bridge? - Yes, Mr. Moody. 13668. Did you hear him send the message? - I did. I told him to repeat it. 13669. You heard him send it, and when he first sent it did he send it quite accurately? - No, not quite. 13670. And did you then make him repeat it accurately? - Yes. 13671. Now just tell the Court what was the difference, what was it you wanted to be right? - Well, I told Mr. Moody to ring up the crow’s-nest and tell the look-outs to keep a sharp look out for ice, particularly small ice and growlers. Mr. Moody rang them up and I could hear quite distinctly what he was saying. He said, “Keep a sharp look out for ice, particularly small ice,” or something like that, and I told him, I think, to ring up again and tell them to keep a sharp look out for ice particularly small ice and growlers. And he rang up the second time and gave the message correctly. 13672. Of course if there was no swell so that you could not at all rely on the breaking of the water against the edge of an iceberg or growler, it would be particularly hard to see would it not? - It would be more difficult if it was not of any size. 13673. Whereas an iceberg that is more out of the water, on a fine night you thought would probably

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show you some white side or white edge? - Yes. 13674. And on a fine night you would be able to see the whiteness? - Yes. 13675. Was that the reason you repeated the message about growlers? - Yes. 13676. Now we come to the last half-hour of your watch, from 9.30 to 10, I think. Just tell us what you were doing as regards ice, looking for ice during that time? - At 9.30 or about 9.30 I took up a position on the bridge where I could see distinctly - a view which cleared the back stays and stays and so on - right ahead, and there I remained during the remainder of my watch. 13677. Were you looking out? - Keeping a sharp look-out, as sharp as was possible. 13678. Looking out for ice? - Looking out for ice and watching the weather; watching the conditions generally to see there was no haze which would rise that I should not notice, and, of course, keeping a sharp look out for ice as well. 13679. Were the conditions of the weather such that a haze might arise locally in one particular part of the field in front of you? - Then I should have seen it. 13680. You thought that might be so and you were looking out? - It could possibly have been so. 13681. Did that happen so during the rest of your watch? - No, it was perfectly clear. 13682. Were you using glasses? - Part of the time, yes. 13683. Do you in practice at night use glasses for the purpose of scanning the track you have to follow. Do you mean it was exceptional to use them? - I mean to say that on this occasion, knowing there were no lights round the icebergs, you would naturally have a pair of glasses in your hand, but where there are lights about you do not use glasses; you pick them up with your eyes first. 13684. Supposing anybody’s duty is to look out for ice at night what is your view as to the usefulness of glasses? - With regard to picking up ice? 13685. Yes? - It is rather difficult to say. I never have picked up ice at nighttime with glasses, so it is really difficult for me to say. 13686. (The Commissioner.) What were you using them for on the bridge? - To assist me in keeping a look-out. 13687. Then you were using them; you were looking out for ice? - I was looking out for ice. 13688. And you were using the glasses? - Occasionally I would raise the glasses to my eyes and look ahead to see if I could see anything, using both glasses and my eyes. 13689. The question I understand is this: Do the glasses help you to detect ice? - Well I should naturally think so, my Lord. The Solicitor-General: I am not quite certain whether you heard what the witness said. The Commissioner: He says “I should think so.” The Solicitor-General: I meant before that; his previous answer. The Commissioner: I understood him to say that he does not use glasses as a rule when he is on the bridge at night, but he did on this occasion. The Solicitor-General: I am anxious we should have it quite fair to him of course. I understand the witness to say that as a matter of fact he never has picked up ice with the help of glasses; it has never been his experience to see ice through glasses; but I gather he was both using his eyes and using glasses. The Witness: Exactly. The Commissioner: Put it to him in your own way, because the impression on my mind at present is this, that in his opinion glasses are useful for the purpose of seeing ice. That is the impression on my mind. 13690. (The Solicitor-General.) You see, Mr. Lightoller, I want to get your own view. You will tell us candidly and fairly, I am sure. First of all, in your own experience, when you have used glasses, have you in fact found ice with the help of glasses? - Never. I have never seen ice through glasses first, never in my experience. Always whenever I have seen a berg I have seen it first with my eyes and then examined it through glasses. The Solicitor-General: I think that is what he said. 13691. (The Commissioner.) You are quite right, and do you say the same thing of ships’ lights? - There is no doubt about ships’ lights. Personally I do not bother about glasses at all. I prefer to rely on my own eyes. 13692. (The Commissioner.) I am told that is right, and then if you want any detail you take the glasses up to examine the lights that you have already seen with the naked eye? - Exactly, my Lord. 13693. (The Solicitor-General.) As I understand you, if it was a question of a light, you have no doubt at all that you would pick it up in the ordinary course with your eyes if you have good eyes before you would get your glasses on to it? - Yes. 13694. But in regard to icebergs, you do not feel so sure? - No. 13695. And on this occasion, during this half hour, you were, in fact, using sometimes your eyes and sometimes your glasses? - Yes, exactly. 13696. That brought you up to the end of your watch at 10 o’clock. Was the speed of the ship maintained up to that time? - As far as I know. 13697. I mean you gave no orders to stop it? - None whatever. 13698. Did the night continue clear and calm? - Perfectly calm, up to 10 o’clock, and clear. 13699. And so far as those conditions are concerned, was there any change up to the time you handed over the ship? - None whatever. If I might say one fact I have just remembered? 13700. Do? - Speaking about the Commander, with reference to ice, of course, there was a footnote on the night order book with regard to ice. The actual wording I cannot remember, but it is always customary. Naturally, every commander, in the night order book, issues his orders for the night, and the footnote had reference to keeping a sharp look out for ice. That is initialed by every officer. 13701. Who was it that took the ship over from you at 10 o’clock? - Mr. Murdoch. 13702. Mr. Murdoch, the First Officer: Just one further thing - You have spoken about the change in the temperature, and you have brought the change in the temperature down to 33 degrees at about 9 o’clock. Then you had another hour. Did you notice whether it went colder? - I did; 1 degree. 13703. That would be getting down to freezing point? - That was exactly freezing. 13704. 32 degrees. Do you remember what time you noticed it had got down to 32 degrees? - No, I could not say. Most probably it was about 10 minutes to 10, when the quartermaster took the temperature of the air and the water by thermometer. 13705. Is that the duty, in the ordinary course, of the Quartermaster at 10 minutes to 10? - Yes, every hour it is registered. 13706. At 10 minutes to the hour? - Yes - every two hours I should say. 13707. When you handed over the ship at the end of your watch to Mr. Murdoch, just tell us, as carefully and fully as you can, what was the report you made to Mr. Murdoch? What was it you passed along to him? - I should give him the course the ship was steering by standard compass. I mentioned the temperature - I think he mentioned the temperature first; he came on deck in his overcoat, and said, “It is pretty cold.” I said, “Yes it is freezing.” I said something about we might be up around the ice any time now, as far as I remember. I cannot remember the exact words, but suggested that we should be naturally round the ice. I passed the word on to him. Of course, I knew we were up to the 49 degrees by, roughly, half-past 9; that ice had been reported. He would know what I meant by that, you know - the Marconigram. 13708. I will tell you what I want to know. Did you say anything to him at 10 o’clock about a calculation having been made by the junior officer or anything of that sort? - I may have done; I really cannot recollect it now, I may have told him that Moody worked it out 11, or I may have told him half-past 9.

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The Commissioner: You yourself knew the boat was already in the ice region at this time? - Yes. 13709. Did you tell Murdoch so? - Yes, my Lord, as I say when he came on deck. 13710. What did you say to him? - That we were up around the ice, or something to that effect; that we were within the region of where the ice had been reported. The actual words I cannot remember; but I gave him to understand that we were within the region where ice had been reported. 13711. (The Solicitor-General.) During your watch and while Mr. Murdoch had been off duty you had caused this calculation to be made and Mr. Moody had given you 11 o’clock? - Yes. 13712. You thought half-past nine? - Yes. 13713. And here you had sent a message up to the crow’s-nest asking them to keep a sharp look-out for ice, especially small ice and growlers? - Yes. 13714. You are handing the ship over at 10 o’clock to Mr. Murdoch who was on the bridge at the time of the accident. Now what I want to know is what was it you told him, as fully as you can, about ice? - I am very sorry, but my memory will not help; I cannot recollect word for word, merely that I gave Mr. Murdoch to understand that we were in the ice region; as to the actual words I said to him, I may have put it many ways - I cannot remember how I did. 13715. I follow you cannot give us the actual words, and your memory does not serve you to say whether you told him anything about your view that you had passed the meridian or Mr. Moody’s view that you would not reach the position until 11 o’clock? - No, I really could not say. 13716. Did you say anything to him about your conversation with the Captain and the order the Captain had given? - Oh! Undoubtedly. 13717. You did? - Oh, undoubtedly. 13718. You would report to him that the Captain had been on the bridge? - Yes. 13719. As far as you remember did you report anything about orders as to speed? - No orders. No orders were passed on about speed. 13720. (The Commissioner.) Did you tell him what message you had sent to the crow’s-nest? - Yes, I did. 13721. You told Mr. Murdoch that? - Yes, I told Mr. Murdoch I had already sent to the crow’s-nest, the carpenter, and the engine room as to the temperature, and such things as that - naturally, in the ordinary course in handing over the ship everything I could think of. 13722. (The Solicitor-General.) We have to get at what is Mr. Murdoch’s state of mind, with your help, because he is not here? - I quite see. 13723. The captain had said to you only half an hour or 35 minutes before that if it got at all doubtful you were to send for him, and that he would be close by? - Yes. 13724. Did you tell Mr. Murdoch of that message? - Oh, undoubtedly. 13725. The captain’s room, I think, is just at the side of the bridge there? - On the side of the bridge, and the window facing right on to the bridge. The bridge is in clear view from his chart room. 13726. You have had great experience of the North Atlantic at all times of the year. Just tell me, when a liner is known to be approaching ice is it, or is it not in your experience usual to reduce speed? - I have never known speed to be reduced in any ship I have ever been in in the north Atlantic in clear weather, not on account of ice. 13727. Assuming that the weather is clear? - Clear. 13728. I think that is all you can tell us as far as your duties on the bridge are concerned. You had some duties to discharge before you turned in, had not you? - Yes, I have to go round the decks and see everything is all right; what we call “going round.” 13729. There is nothing material there? - Nothing in reference to the case, no. 13730. Did you go to your room and turn in? - Yes. 13731. And had you turned in at the time of the impact, the collision? - Yes. 13732. I mean your light was out? - Yes, my light was out but I was still awake. 13733. You were still awake? - Yes. 13734. If you were awake you felt something, I suppose? Just describe to us what it was you felt? - It is best described as a jar and a grinding sound. There was a slight jar followed by this grinding sound. It struck me we had struck something and then thinking it over it was a feeling as if she may have hit something with her propellers, and on second thoughts I thought perhaps she had struck some obstruction with her propeller and stripped the blades off. There was a slight jar followed by the grinding - a slight bumping. 13735. (The Commissioner.) You could not tell from what direction the sound came? - No, my Lord. Naturally I thought it was from forward. 13736. I understand you to say you thought it was the propellers? - On second thoughts it flashed through my mind that possibly it was a piece of wreckage, or something - a piece of ice had been struck by a propeller blade, which might have given a similar feeling to the ship. 13737. (The Solicitor-General.) As to this grinding noise which you speak of which followed the slight shock, can you give us any help at all how long the grinding sound or sensation continued? - Well, I should say a matter of a couple of seconds, perhaps - a few seconds, very few. 13738. I understand it was not violent at all? - Oh, no, not at all. 13739. (The Commissioner.) You were lying down at the time? - Yes, my Lord. I had just switched the light out. I was going to sleep. I had switched the light out and turned over to go to sleep. 13740. (The Solicitor-General.) But you were awake? - I was awake. 13741. When this occurred your mind naturally searched for a probable cause? - Yes. 13742. Did you think of ice? - I did. 13743. Just tell us what you did, in order? - I lay there for a few moments, it might have been a few minutes, and then feeling the engines had stopped I got up. 13744. From where you were lying could you hear the ring of the telegraph? - No. 13745. So that you did not know of the order given to stop the engines? - No. 13746. But you felt that they had stopped? - I did. 13747. And you got up? - Yes. 13748. Did you go to the bridge? - Not exactly the bridge; I went out on deck. The bridge, you know, is on the same level. 13749. On to the boat deck? - On to the boat deck on the port side. 13750. Is your room on the port side? - My room is on the port side. 13751. What did you find was the condition of things? - Everything seemed normal. 13752. Was the ship going full speed ahead? - Oh, no, but I mean the conditions on the bridge. 13753. It was my fault. What did you find was the position of the ship? - I, first of all, looked forward to the bridge and everything seemed quiet there. I could see the First Officer standing on the footbridge keeping the look out. I then walked across to the side, and I saw the ship had slowed down, that is to say, was proceeding slowly through the water. 13754. This is all on the port side? - All on the port side. 13755. Did you see any iceberg? - No. 13756. Of course, if the iceberg passed the starboard side of the vessel, you were on the opposite side? - Yes. 13757. When you came out on deck was the ship already stopped or slowing down through the water? - She was proceeding slowly, a matter of perhaps six knots or something like that. 13758. Were the engines still stopped? - I could not exactly say what the engines were doing after once I got up. It was when I was lying still in my bunk I could feel the engines were stopped.

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13759. Can you help us as to whether the engines were put full speed astern? - No, I cannot say I remember feeling the engines going full speed astern. 13760. When you looked over the side you thought she was going through the water about six knots? - Yes, four to six knots. I did not stay there long. 13761. Just tell us what you did. - After looking over the side and seeing the bridge I went back to the quarters and crossed over to the starboard side. I looked out of the starboard door and I could see the Commander standing on the bridge in just the same manner as I had seen Mr. Murdoch, just the outline; I could not see which was which in the dark. I did not go out on the deck again on the starboard side. It was pretty cold and I went back to my bunk and turned in. 13762. At that time you thought nothing was the matter? - I did not think it was anything serious. 13763. (The Commissioner.) Well, you did think, as I understand, that she had fouled something with her propeller blades? - Either bumped something or fouled something. 13764. Was not that serious? - No. 13765. I should have thought it was? - Well, it is in a way, my Lord. If it was sufficiently serious I knew I should be called. But what I mean to convey is, I had been on deck and looked both sides and had not seen anybody about, that is to say, everything was clear; there was nobody coming towards the quarters to call us or anything. The Quartermaster had not left the bridge. I knew that if they wanted us it was a moments work for the Quartermaster to come along and tell us. Judging the conditions were normal, I went back and turned in. 13766. You thought it was safe enough to turn in? - Oh, quite. 13767. (The Solicitor-General.) You say the First Officer and the Captain were both on the bridge? - As I should judge from their figures. 13768. That was your impression? - Yes. 13769. Is it usual to find the First Officer and the Captain both on the bridge in the ordinary course? - Oh, yes; there is nothing uncommon about it, nothing whatever. 13770. Of course the First Officer is the officer of the watch? - Yes. 13771. You have told us how the Captain came to you while you were on your watch and I suppose you thought he had come to the First Officer in the same way? - Well, of course I knew the bump had brought him out. 13772. (The Commissioner.) Was the Captain dressed? - That I could not say. I do not think there was any doubt about his being dressed, because in the ordinary conditions, as the Captain said, he would be just inside, he would not turn in under those conditions. He would just remain in his navigating room where his navigating instruments are: chart books, etc., where he would be handy to pop out on the bridge. 13773. (The Solicitor-General.) Nobody blames you for turning in, you understand. - No. The Commissioner: Oh, no. 13774. (The Solicitor-General.) But it is to get your point of view. You had noticed the ship had stopped, or at least the engines had stopped? - Yes. 13775. And that she was going only six knots through the water? - Yes. 13776. In mid-Atlantic? - Yes. 13777. No other ship near? - No. 13778. Did not that strike you at all? - Oh, yes. I knew perfectly well that some extraordinary circumstance had occurred; that is to say we had struck something or our propeller had been struck. 13779. (The Commissioner.) Your curiosity was not sufficient to remain in the cold? 13780. To go on to the bridge? - No, it was not a case of curiosity; it was not my duty to go on to the bridge when it was not my watch. 13781. (The Solicitor-General.) How long were you in your room after that before you did turn out? - It is very difficult to say. I should say roughly about half an hour perhaps; it might have been longer, it might have been less. 13782. Did you go to sleep? - Oh, no. 13783. (The Commissioner.) What on earth were you doing? Were you lying down in your bunk listening to the noises outside? - There were no noises. I turned in my bunk, covered myself up and waited for somebody to come along and tell me if they wanted me. 13784. (The Solicitor-General.) Time is very difficult to calculate, especially when you are trying to go to sleep, but seriously do you think it was half an hour? - That I was in my bunk after that? 13785. Yes? - Well I did not think it was half an hour, but we have been talking this matter over a very great deal, and I judge it is half an hour, because it was Mr. Boxhall who came to inform me afterwards we had struck ice, and previous to him coming to inform me, as you will find out in his evidence, he had been a considerable way round the ship on various duties which must have taken him a good while. It might be less, it might be a quarter-of-an-hour. You will be able to form your judgment. 13786. He is the Fourth Officer? - Yes. 13787. How would his time of duty run? - He was on duty till 12 o’clock. 13788. Ten to 12? - Eight to 12. 13789. It was Mr. Boxhall who came to your room and gave you the information? - Yes. 13790. What was it he told you? - He just came in and quietly remarked “You know we have struck an iceberg.” I said “I know we have struck something.” He then said “The water is up to F Deck in the mail room.” 13791. (The Commissioner.) Well, that was rather alarming, was it not? - He had no need to say anything further then, Sir. 13792. (The Solicitor-General.) “The water is up to F deck in the mail room.” It is quite fair of you to have told us why you thought it was longer, but I want to see we get it right from your point of view. I see when you gave your statement about this matter at that time your impression was it was a shorter time than half an hour? - Did I? 13793. Yes, I have got down here six minutes? - Oh, there must be some mistake, I think, in that. 13794. When you got that news it did not take you very long to turn out the second time? - No, it did not. 13795. Did you go on deck? - After dressing. 13796. Now just tell us what you saw, and what you found was the condition of things there? - At this time the steam was roaring off. The Commissioner: You will be some little time yet, Mr. Solicitor? The Solicitor-General: Yes, my Lord. The Commissioner: Very well. You have him on deck, and I think this is the time to rise.

(The Witness withdrew.)

The Solicitor-General: I do not know whether your Lordship would wish the date of the adjournment to be settled now.
The Commissioner: I thought that it would be convenient to rise next Friday evening about this time, and then to adjourn until the following Tuesday week. I mean adjourn over the Whit. week. We shall have plenty to do, I at all events shall have plenty to do in the meantime. I shall have all these notes to read, and post myself up in the evidence. I do not know whether that is convenient to you, Sir Robert?
Sir Robert Finlay: Yes, my Lord. I have communicated with the Attorney-General about this.
The Solicitor-General: The Attorney-General told me so, and I thought it would be convenient if your Lordship made the announcement now, as it helps people to make their arrangements.
The Commissioner: Very well.

(Adjourned to tomorrow at 10.30 o’clock.)