Page 247

Wreck Commissioners' Court.

SCOTTISH HALL,

BUCKINGHAM GATE,

Friday, 17th May, 1912.

PROCEEDINGS

WIITH

THE RIGHT HON. LORD MERSEY,

Wreck Commissioner of the United Kingdom,

WITH

REAR ADMIRAL THE HON. S. A. GOUGH-CALTHORPE, C.V.O., R.N.,

CAPTAIN A. W. CLARKE,

COMMANDER F. C. A. LYON, R.N.R.,

PROFESSOR J. H. BILES, LL.D., D.Sc.,

MR. E. C. CHASTON, R.N.R.

Acting as Assessors.

ON A FORMAL INVESTIGATION

ORDERED BY THE BOARD OF TRADE INTO THE

LOSS OF THE S. S. "TITANIC."

TENTH DAY.

THE RIGHT HON. SIR RUFUS ISAACS, K.C., M.P. (Attorney-General), SIR JOHN SIMON, K.C., M.P. (Solicitor-General), MR. BUTLER ASPINAL, K.C., MR. S. A. T. ROWLATT and MR. RAYMOND ASQUITH (instructed by SIR R. ELLIS CUNLIFFE, Solicitor to the Board of Trade) appeared as Counsel on behalf of the Board of Trade.

THE RIGHT HON. SIR ROBERT FINLAY, K.C., M.P., MR. P. LAING, K.C., MR. MAURICE HILL., K.C., and MR. NORMAN RAEBURN (instructed by Messrs. Hill, Dickinson and Co.), appeared as counsel on behalf of the White Star line.

MR. THOMAS SCANLAN, M.P. (instructed by Mr. Smith, Solicitor), appeared as Counsel on behalf of the National Sailors' and Firemen's Union of Great Britain and Ireland and of the personal representatives of several deceased members of the crew and of survivors who were members of the Union. (Admitted On application.)

MR. B0TTERELL (instructed by Messrs. Botterell and Roche) appeared on behalf of the Chamber of Shipping of the United Kingdom. (Admitted on application.)

MR. THOMAS LEWIS appeared on behalf of the British Seafarers' Union. (Admitted on application.)

MR. L. S. HOLMES (of Messrs. Miller, Taylor and Holmes, of Liverpool) appeared on behalf of the Imperial Merchant Service Guild. (Admitted on application.)

MR. COTTER appeared on behalf of the National Union of Stewards. (Admitted on application.)

MR. HAMAR GREENWOOD, M.P. (instructed by Messrs. Pritchard and Sons), watched proceedings on behalf of the Allan Line Steamship Company.

MR. HAMAR GREENWOOD, M.P. (instructed by Messrs. William A. Crump and Son), watched proceedings for the Canadian Pacific Railway Company.

MR. ROCHE (instructed by Messrs. Charles G. Bradshaw and Waterson) appeared on behalf of the Marine Engineers' Association. (Admitted on application.)

MR. A. CLEMENT EDWARDS. M.P., (instructed by Messrs. Helder, Roberts and Co.), appeared as Counsel on behalf of the Dock, Wharf, Riverside, and General Workers Union of Great Britain and Ireland. (Admitted on application.)

MR. W. D. HARBINSON (instructed by Mr. Farrell) appeared on behalf of the third-class passengers. (Admitted on application.)

MR. ROBERTSON DUNLOP watched the proceedings on behalf of the owners and officers of the s.s. "Californian." (Leyland Line). (Admitted on Application.)

MR. H. E. DUKE, K. C., M. P., and MR. VAUGHAN WILIAMS (instructed by Messrs. A. F. and R. W. Tweedie) appeared as Counsel on behalf of Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon. (Admitted on Application.)

Page 248

The Commissioner: Mr. Attorney, I am reported to have made some observations last evening - and I have no doubt I am accurately reported - with reference to the Assessors who sit with me, and who are of such great assistance to me. What I said appears to be open to misconstruction. I did not mean to convey that the Assessors were not a necessary and a most proper part of the Tribunal; all that I intended to convey was that I thought that I could, when occasion required, proceed without the whole of them being here.

The Attorney-General: Yes, I understood your Lordship's reference to be in consequence of the necessary absence on public duty of Commander Lyon.

The Commissioner: Of Commander Lyon, who desired to be away on Monday.

The Attorney-General: I think it would be better subject to your Lordship's view, that we should proceed at once to the recall of Hendrickson.

The Commissioner: Very well.

The Attorney-General: It would be better than going on with the witness we had yesterday in the box.

The Commissioner: You know better than I do.

Mr. Duke: If your Lordship pleases. As Hendrickson is to be recalled, I ask your Lordship's leave, on behalf of Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon, to appear here to ask some questions of Hendrickson with regard to his evidence as it affected them.

The Commissioner: I think that is right, Mr. Attorney?

The Attorney-General: I have no objection.

The Commissioner: Apparently the evidence may be taken as casting some sort of reflection on those people.

The Attorney-General: It will probably be convenient, as my friend Mr. Duke is here, that we should decide what should be done with regard to the evidence directed to this point. Your Lordship will remember there were seven of the crew in the boat, including Hendrickson. We have them here. Your Lordship will remember that there were two ladies in the boat and three male passengers, including Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon. In regard to the crew, we have all the seven here. It may or may not be necessary to call them, but they shall be in attendance, and I propose certainly to call - I state this for the information of my friend - so that he may know what I am going to do - to call the man who was in charge, Symons or Simmons, after Hendrickson; and then there was another able seaman on the boat whom I will call, and one of the firemen. Then there are some other firemen, trimmers, and, if necessary, we will call them. That would exhaust the crew. But as my friend Mr. Duke is appearing, of course, he is in a much better position to know what Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon will say than we are, as we have had no communication with them and no proof, and it would be better, I suggest, although I do not mean in the slightest degree to insist upon it, that my friend should call them and that we should ask any questions that may occur to us in order to elucidate the point at issue, instead of our calling them. I do not really care which of us does it, only he has the material and we have not.

Mr. Duke: May I say to your Lordship with regard to that, that before Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon returned they communicated with the Board of Trade that they would be present to give such evidence as was required; but they did not arrive in London, I think, until Tuesday. Their proofs were taken either Wednesday or yesterday - I think yesterday - and I saw my friend as we came in this morning, and I mentioned to him that I have proofs here; and if the Court thinks that the more desirable course is that I should hand to the Law Officers those proofs, and the Law Officers should examine them, I am content to do that. I am, of course, aware of the contents of the proofs, and I am ready to examine them if your Lordship thinks fit.

The Attorney-General: I have really no choice in the matter. I am quite ready to call them and follow the course that has been pursued here by calling them, and putting such questions to them as may be necessary for the purpose of elucidating the subject matter of this portion of the Inquiry if your Lordship thinks that that is the more convenient course.

The Commissioner: I think it would be more regular if you call them, Mr. Attorney.

The Attorney-General: As your Lordship pleases.

The Commissioner: And make them witnesses in connection with the Inquiry.

The Attorney-General: Certainly.

The Commissioner: If during the evidence anything should come out which appears to throw discredit upon either the lady or the gentleman, then I will allow Mr. Duke to ask them any questions which he thinks fit.

Mr. Duke: If your Lordship pleases.

The Commissioner: And see if it can be cleared up.

The Attorney-General: I shall be obliged if my friend will supply me with a copy of the proofs.

Mr. Duke: I will at once.

The Attorney-General: My friend will understand that I am making no complaints of our not having had any proofs from Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon.

Mr. Duke: I am much obliged to my friend. I perfectly understood it, only I wanted to make it clear that Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon desired to be present and give evidence.

The Commissioner: I think the examination of Hendrickson by you was complete?

The Attorney-General: Yes, not only by us, but also by all those who represented the various interests.

The Commissioner: Yes.

The Attorney-General: Except the representatives of the White Star Line.

The Commissioner: Yes; Sir Robert Finlay applied for a postponement.

The Attorney-General: The evidence is at pages 109 to 116, and Sir Robert applied, as your Lordship quite correctly says, at first to defer it till the morning, and then, on the next morning, we agreed it should be deferred till this morning. If your Lordship would like the particular passages which bear upon this part of the Enquiry, you will find them at page 112,beginning at Question 4994. That is the beginning of the reference to Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon. That continues for the whole of page 113, and then there are some further passages on page 115.

Mr. Duke: There is a little at the top of page 113, I think, Mr. Attorney?

The Attorney-General: That is only as to names, is it not?

Mr. Duke: Perhaps that is so.

The Attorney-General: I agree. I have noticed that, but that only gives the names of the persons who were in the boat.

Mr. Duke: I was referring to 5065 in particular.

The Attorney-General: Yes, quite right.

The Commissioner: Page 113?

The Attorney-General: Yes, my Lord. There is nothing very material there; you have already got it, but 5065 is the question my friend, Mr. Duke, referred to. It ends at 5070. It is only just a few questions, and I think if you read 5065, it is the only one which is of importance on this. Then if you will look at page 114 about Question 5132, and I think they continue to about 5170. Then on page 115, Question 5187, begins the reference to the money - that goes to 5190. There are just those four questions by Mr. Edwards. Then it is taken up again later in the examination by Mr. Lewis from the beginning; at Question 5192 it begins. It continues to Question 5219, and that is the end of it. Your Lordship will observe you put a series of questions from 5198 to 5212, which summarised the position as regards the money.

The Commissioner: Now, where is Hendrickson?

Page 249

CHARLES HENDRICKSON, Recalled.

The Commissioner: Now, Mr. Laing.

Mr. Laing: I have only one Question I want to ask him.

Examined by Mr. LAING.

11072. When your boat No. 1 was lowered into the water did you see any other steamers' lights near? - No.
11073. Nothing at all? - No, I saw a light while I was on board the "Titanic."
11074. Before she was lowered, you mean? - Yes.
11075. What light did you see? - I saw a bright light.
11076. What did you take it to be? - A ship, five or six miles ahead of us.
11077. I think you have told us when the officer told you to lower away he told you to keep near the ship and come back if called on? - Yes.
11078. Did you hear any calling? - No.
11079. Was there anybody using the megaphone on board? - I could not say; I do not know.

Examined by Mr. DUKE.

11080. The boat was what is called a dinghy, was not she? - Yes, an accident or emergency boat.
11081. Are you a seaman? - No, a fireman.
11082. Perhaps you are not able to express any opinion as to whether she was the sort of boat that was ever intended to navigate in the Atlantic? - I do not know; I do not understand a boat.
11083. Were you there when the lifeboats put off? - Yes.
11084. You saw them put off. I mean the lifeboats on the starboard forward quarter? - No, not the starboard, the port side.
11085. I am speaking of the lifeboats on the starboard side forward? - I saw one or two, that is all.
11086. Did you see the boat that was launched next before the dinghy was lowered? - I never took that notice.
11087. Were you there at the time? - I was there at the bridge then - the fore end.
11088. Was it Mr. Murdoch that was giving orders as to the boats? - I do not know.
11089. Did you know Mr. Murdoch? - I did not know him. The only officer I saw there was the officer who fired the rockets.
11090. Did not you see the officer who was giving the orders as to the boats? - I saw him, but I did not recognise him; I did not see his features.
11091. Was that because of the darkness? - Yes.
11092. Did you hear what he said? - He told me after we got into the boat and were lowering down: "Come back if you are called upon."
11093. Is that the first you know about it? - About what?
11094. About the lowering of the boat - the manning of the boat and the lowering of her? Is that the first you know? - No, it is not the first. When I got round the boat, I was at the boatswain end at the same time the officer was firing his rockets. After the officer finished firing the rockets he sung out, "How many seamen are there in the boat?"
11095. At that time were there men in this dinghy? - Yes, two seamen.
11096. You say the officer asked how many seamen there were? - In the boat. They answered, "Two."
11097. Did he then order in some firemen, or was it subsequently? - He called out, first of all, were there any more seamen there, and he got no reply, and he said, "Six firemen jump in that boat."
11098. And did the six firemen jump into the boat? - Five, I found out after.
11099. Were you one of the five? - Yes.
11100. Did you hear what he said about ladies or passengers? - He called out was there any more ladies about, and got no answer, and then gave the order to lower away.
11101. But before that had you seen the lady you now know as Lady Duff-Gordon? - Not at the time.
11102. Not at the time? - No.
11103. Had you seen her at all until you were in the boat and were rowing? - Not to take notice.
11104. Did you become aware of the circumstances under which she was in the boat at all? - No.
11105. Was the first you knew about her that she was in the boat when you were rowing? - The first time I saw the lady was in the boat.
11106. The first time you knew of her being there? - Yes.
11107. And you did not hear anything of the conversation which led to her going into the boat? - No.
11108. You were standing by. Had you become aware that she had refused to leave her husband and refused to leave the ship in either of the lifeboats that had been lowered on that side of the ship at that end? - No, I do not know.
11109. You did not know about that? Did you hear what the officer said when the boat had been lowered and was afloat? - The officer called out and said: "Stand by and come back if called."
11110. Now, stop a minute. Did he first say, "Who is the seaman who is there?" - Oh, yes. He called his name.
11111. Was it Simmons or Symons? - I do not know whether it was Symons or Simmons.
11112. We will call him Simmons. Did Simmons say - Simmons, the look-out? - I did not know his capacity at all.
11113. I am asking you what he said to the officer? - The officer told him to take command of the boat.
11114. Did the officer say to him, "Now you take command of this boat. These men are under your orders, and see they obey you"? - Yes, I remember that.
11115. And did he then say to him, "Follow the other boats"? - I never heard that.
11116. "Row as hard as you can for about 200 yards, to get away from the ship"? - No, I never heard that.
11117. Just think it over? - I do not remember it, Sir.
11118. You would not say he did not say it? - No, I would not say he did not say it, but I do not remember him saying it.
11119. Did the boat, in fact, stand by at 150 or 200 yards? - We were just pulling around there about that distance.
11120. Just let us see what was done. Was this what was done, that you did pull as hard as you could for some considerable time? - For a time, yes.
11121. Did you then rest a bit? - Yes.
11122. Did you then pull again? - We kept on resting and pulling.
11123. At the time the "Titanic" went down had you rested and pulled, rested and pulled, several times? - Yes.
11124. And all that time had you been pulling away from the ship in the direction the other boats had gone? - Yes, we were pulling about, and just keeping watch of them at the same time.
11125. By the time the "Titanic" went down were you many hundreds of yards from the ship? - I could not say.
11126. Have you any judgment at all about distances at sea? - As I said before, somewhere about 200 yards.

Page 250

11127. But you pulled in the first instance what you considered 200 yards, did you not, with a strong pull to get away from the ship? - Yes, but we were not pulling right straight away all the time. We were pulling away, and going along a little bit, and coming back again.
11128. I suggest you were pulling in the direction the other boats had gone and pulling away from the "Titanic"? - We were pulling away, yes.
11129. Up to the time the vessel sank. When the vessel sank she left the sea in darkness at the point where you had been able to see her lights? - Yes.
11130. And was all you were able to see of the "Titanic" the outline of the figure as the stern rose in the air and the boat went down? - Yes.
11131. Can you tell the Court whereabouts you were sitting in the boat? - In the bow.
11132. That would have been, as near as possible, to Horswill, who was keeping the look-out? - Yes.
11133. Simmons was in the stern of the boat? - Yes.
11134. And he was steering? - He was steering.
11135. And was Simmons there in charge of the boat and doing his duty in a very seaman-like way the whole of that night? - Yes.
11136. And in absolute command? - Yes.
11137. I understand you to say that you came to the conclusion the boat ought to have gone back? - Yes.
11138. When did you come to that conclusion? - At the time when she sank and we heard the cries. After we heard the cries, I sang out in the boat, "It is up to us to go back and pick up anyone in the boat."
11139. You thought that then? - Yes.
11140. When did you first tell anybody that from the time you were on board the "Carpathia"? I am not speaking of the time you were in the boat; I will deal with that presently. From the time you got on board the "Carpathia" until the present time, when did you first tell anybody that, while you were in the boat, you thought the boat ought to go back? - I told the Court here last week.
11141. Was that the first time you have told anybody? - The first time to my knowledge.
11142. Now, I understand your present impression to be that the boat was prevented from going back by the action of Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon? - Yes, they protested against going back.
11143. When did you first make that statement to anybody? - Last Thursday.
11144. Did somebody take your proof of what happened on board this boat? - I could not say.
11145. Did not anybody take down a statement from you in writing of what you were able to say here to throw light upon the matter? - I never said anything about Sir Duff-Gordon at all. I made a statement which I gave at Plymouth, just the workings of the boat, what I knew went on on board the boat.
       The Attorney-General: He made a deposition.
11146. (Mr. Duke.) I follow. (To the Witness.) You have told the Court that you said "It is up to us to go back"? - Yes.
11147. To whom did you say it? - Well, to the men who were in the boat.
11148. The men that were in the boat. Some of them were your own comrades on board the ship? - Yes, of course.
11149. You know the name of every one of them, do you not? - Pretty well now, yes.
11150. Tell me to what man or to what person in that boat did you at that time say, "It is up to us to go back"? - I never said it to anyone personally.
11151. Not to anyone personally? - Not personally, no; I called out.
       The Commissioner: He did not speak individually, but he spoke to all of them.
       The Attorney-General: I have the deposition. I will ask my friend if he has seen it.
       Mr. Duke: No, I have not seen it.
       The Attorney-General: I notice he says this upon the point you are now cross-examining to: "I proposed pulling in to pick up any who should be in the water after the ship sunk, but the passengers objected, and it was not done. We left the ship about 1. 30 a.m., remaining near other boats until the 'Carpathia' came up." That is what he says about it in the depositions.
       The Commissioner: When was the deposition sworn?
       The Attorney-General: On the 25th. I am not sure whether it is the 25th or 28th April, on his return in the "Lapwing." [Lapland]
11152. (Mr. Duke - To the Witness.) You had forgotten that? - Yes.
11153. Is not your memory pretty good? - It is not so bad, I think.
11154. Have you been a good deal badgered about this business from first to last? - What do you mean, badgered?
11155. Bothered about it; asked questions about it by all sorts of people? - Yes, everybody asked questions about the turn out and everything.
11156. Before the time you made that deposition had you said to anybody that Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon prevented that boat being put back? - Not to my knowledge, not before that time.
11157. From that time forward, or at any time until you named Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon in Court here last week, had you suggested that it was Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon who prevented that boat going back? - No, not to my knowledge; I had no cause to.
11158. Now, I was asking you what man in the boat you could name - or was intending to ask you - as a man who heard you, to your knowledge, say, "It is up to us to go back"? - I think Taylor was the nearest man to me in the boat.
11159. Was he on the same seat with you? - I think he was sitting alongside Sir Duff-Gordon.
11160. Did Taylor say anything to you? - Nothing at all; no one said anything.
11161. No one? - No one at all.
11162. No one said anything? - No.
11163. Do you mean that nobody said anything in answer to your suggestion? - He said it would be dangerous to go back; we should get swamped.
11164. Who? - Sir Duff-Gordon and Lady Duff-Gordon.
11165. To you? - I do not know whether it was to me. It was when I put this proposition to go back.
11166. The man you put the proposition to was Simmons? - No, any one at all; I called out for everyone to hear.
11167. The man to decide whether the boat should go back was Simmons, was it not? - Yes, he was the man in charge of the boat.
11168. Had everybody on that boat been perfectly obedient to his orders up to that time? - Yes.
11169. Was everybody on that boat perfectly obedient to his orders from that time? - Yes.
11170. Did you in Simmons' hearing so that effect could be given to anything you said, suggest so that Simmons could hear it, that you wanted that boat to go back? - I do not know whether he heard it or not.
11171. What was the use of suggesting it to anybody else, Hendrickson? - Well, I do not know.
11172. Was this a momentary impulse of yours, or had you thought about it? - No, it came across me after I heard those cries.
11173. You heard cries, and you say you said, so that somebody could hear, "It is up to us to go back"? - Yes.
11174. Did you have any conversation with Taylor? - No.
11175. Taylor was sitting alongside of you? - He was sitting on the next thwart to me alongside Sir Duff-Gordon.
11176. Who was the man alongside of you? - No one alongside of me.
11177. You were sitting on a seat alone? - I was sitting on a seat alone.
11178. Taylor was the next member of the crew to you? - Yes.
11179. Horswill was the seaman immediately ahead of you? - Yes.
11180. Do you think he heard you? - I do not know.
11181. He was a seaman and had more to do with the management of the boat than you? - I had nothing to do with the management of the boat at all.

Page 251

11182. Simmons had all to do and Horswill had something to do with the management of the boat? - I suppose so.
11183. The two seamen were in charge. Do you suggest you said, so that either of these two seamen could hear you, that you considered this boat ought to go back? - They should have heard me.
11184. Had you any sort of indication that Horswill heard you - the man close by? - I could not say whether he heard me or not.
11185. You could not tell? - No.
11186. If you thought the boat, in the name of humanity, ought to go back, why did not you say so to Horswill? - I did not want to tell one man personally; I called out.
11187. Did any seaman reply? - I never heard any.
11188. Did any fireman reply? - I never heard any replies at all about going back after that.
11189. Now, I suggest to you, that you are quite right in that answer, and that nobody addressed any observation to you upon the question whether the boat should go back. Is that the truth? - Certainly, it is the truth.
11190. That nobody said anything to you about the boat going back? - No.
11191. Nothing? - No.
11192. Then why do you say that Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon prevented the boat going back? - I thought you were talking about the crew.
       The Attorney-General: He said that before.
       Mr. Duke: I am aware, but I am cross-examining; I want to deal fairly.
       The Witness: You were referring to the crew.
11193. Well, go back to the others. None of the crew said anything? - No, I got no answer, only from Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon.
11194. Now I will take you with regard to that. Did you consider whether they were right or wrong in the course which you suggest they said ought to be taken? - It would be right in one way and wrong in another, on account of ladies being in the boat.
11195. Did you consider whether they were right or wrong, because a serious imputation is put upon them? - I should say they were wrong.
11196. You think they were wrong? - Yes.
11197. Did you always think that? - What do you mean, "always"?
11198. From the time when, as you say, you wanted to go back and take the boat back, down to the time when you got to the "Carpathia" and onwards, were you always of opinion that they had done wrong in not taking the boat back? - I had other things in my mind as well as that. I never had that in my mind all the time.
11199. Were you on the best possible terms with Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon on board the "Carpathia"? - Yes.
11200. Was the first time, so far as you know, that Sir Cosmo spoke to you, the time when the boat was alongside the "Carpathia," and there was some difficulty in getting up the rope ladder? - Yes, there was a little difficulty.
11201. Had Sir Cosmo ever spoken to you before that? - Yes.
11202. Where? - In the boat, he asked me if I wanted a smoke, and he gave me a cigar in the boat.
11203. That is one thing. What else had he said to you in the boat? - I do not remember him saying anything to me. He said he would get our names and send a wire home to our families if he could.
11204. But that was not said personally to you? - No.
11205. Was that your first personal conversation with him when the boat was alongside the "Carpathia" and there was some difficulty about getting up? - There was not any conversation, only we were trying to get this chair.
11206. A chair was being slung down to get the ladies up? - Yes, the boat was rocking about.
11207. That was the first time you spoke personally to Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon? - Yes.
11208. Who was it on board the boat who had some conversation with you about his making a present to the crew? - First of all Collins come down to me and said, "Sir Duff-Gordon wants our names."
11209. Was that when you were on board the "Carpathia"? - Yes.
11210. That is the first time you heard of it? - Yes.
11211. I will come back to what you said about it. I want to find out when you were in conversation with him. You were in conversation with him while the boat was alongside the "Carpathia"? - No, it was not a conversation at all.
11212. Well, did you take charge of his coat so as to help him to get up the ladder? - No.
11213. Did not you? - No.
11214. And give him his coat on deck? - No.
11215. On deck did Sir Cosmo say to you, either then or shortly afterwards, "Now I am going to make a present of £5 each to the men who were in the boat to make good the loss of their kit"? - No.
11216. Did he ask you to get a list of the men? - No.
11217. Did you get the list? - Yes.
11218. And is it in your own handwriting? - Yes, I made the list out, but he never asked me to make it out.
11219. And did you bring it to Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon? - Yes.
11220. Before the men left the "Carpathia" these cheques were written, and you got yours? - Yes.
11221. Were you all photographed together by one of the passengers of the "Carpathia," you in your lifebelt? - Yes.
11222. Did not you believe at that time that you and everybody else on board that boat had done their duty? - Well, we did it to a certain extent.
11223. Now stop. Did not you believe when you were photographed together in a group, you and another, I think, in your lifebelts, that you and everybody in that boat had done your duty? - No, Sir.
11224. You did not? - No.
11225. Before you left the "Carpathia" did you and the other members of the small boat's crew write your names on Lady Duff-Gordon's lifebelt? - Yes.
11226. As a memento? - Yes.
11227. And you parted with the Duff-Gordon's in terms of respect? - Yes. We were asked to put our names on it, and we did it.
11228. Was the boat, at the time you got in her, rather crowded at the sides with oars and boat masts and things of that kind? - Yes; they were all on one side.
11229. There were oars, and were there boat masts. They are spoken of as poles? - Oars and a mast and a boat hook, I think.
11230. Which were stowed on one side, and which occupied a space? - Yes.
11231. And made the position of the passengers and members of the crew rather cramped, did it not? - Well, it did for a time until we got them out.
11232. Did you ever throw them overboard or get rid of them out of the way? - No.
11233. Were not they there stowed alongside the whole time, so that there was barely room for two people to sit abreast on the seats where the two people were sitting? - They certainly took up a space at the side of the boat. We had the oars out and then there was a little more room.
11234. Were not the people in the boat crowded by reason of the mode in which the seats had been packed while the boats were on the davits? - I could not say that.
11235. You did not notice that? - No.
11236. Tell me, with regard to the "Titanic" and Lady Duff-Gordon, from the time you first left off rowing, that is when you had got what was considered a proper distance from the vessel, to the time the "Titanic" went down, was Lady Duff-Gordon practically all the time violently seasick? - Not then; she was after.
11237. From the time you left off rowing in the first instance until very near the time you came in sight of the "Carpathia," was she violently seasick, and was she lying along upon the oars which were occupying the side of the boat where she was? - Yes, she was.
11238. Was not that her condition at the time the "Titanic" went down? - I could not say.

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11239. I suggest to you, Mr. Hendrickson, that your statement that she took part in any conversation about the boat is a complete error? - That is what the lady said, what I am telling you; I am telling you the truth.
11240. How far off was she from you? - I reckon about 200 yards.
11241. I am not speaking of the ship, I am speaking of the lady. There were several seats between you and her? - I was in one seat here, and a gentleman was in this seat, and she was in the next one.
11242. She was in the second seat from you towards the stern of the boat? - Yes.
11243. Lying down - in a reclining position. She had her head down upon those oars and tackle? - Yes.
11244. I put it to you that at that time, the time the ship went down, she not only was not conducting conversation with anybody, but she was not in a condition to conduct conversation? - She was talking to her husband at intervals.
11245. I put it to you that her conversation to her husband was considerably after that time? - No; she got up now and again and lifted her head up.
11246. Was not the only communication which passed between her and her husband at that time the efforts the husband made to comfort his wife and to try and help her in her condition? - Yes.
11247. It was so? - Yes, when I saw them.
11248. Did that go on for a very long time when the boat was afloat? - For some time after the "Titanic" went down.
11249. Now, do you suggest it was in the intervals of these attempts of the husband to comfort his wife and relieve her from the trouble she was in - that physical trouble - that the conversation took place? - Yes.
11250. You say that? - Yes.
11251. You think that Lady Duff-Gordon heard you suggest that the boat should go back to the ship? - I could not say; I never said she heard me. I do not know who heard me.
11252. If she heard you, Horswill must have heard you? - She must have heard me to answer me.
11253. Let us see. She was on the second seat from you? - Yes.
11254. If she heard you Horswill must have heard you? - I do not know.
11255. The seaman who was alongside Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon must have heard you? - He should have heard me, yes.
11256. The person who was alongside Lady Duff-Gordon should have heard you? - Yes, they should have heard me.
11257. Did you say anything so that Simmons could hear you? - I could not say whether he heard me or not.
11258. Did you consider at that time whether Simmons heard you or not? - No.
11259. What? - No.
11260. How was that? If you seriously, as you say, thought as a matter of humanity Simmons ought to take this boat back, how was it you did not consider whether Simmons heard you or not? - If he heard me he should have given me an answer.
11261. You think if he had heard you he would have given you an answer? - I do not know whether he would; he should, I said.
11262. Did you think he did? - No.
11263. You thought he did not. Why did you not repeat what you had to say, if you ever said it, so that it should go to the ears of the one man who could give effect to it? - It was up to the others, as well as me, to pass the word along if they heard me.
11264. Do you mean there was a little conversation between you and some other people about you as to whether it was up to you to go back? - No little conversation at all. I had no conversation. I called out, as I told you before.
11265. No talk? - No.
11266. None of the men about you replied? - No, no one at all.
11267. Are you sure now that any of the men about you heard? - They must have heard, they were there.
11268. Horswill must have heard? - They must all have heard, I should think.
11269. None of them made a reply? - None of them; none of the men.
11270. Simmons never had an opportunity of forming a judgment on your opinion that he ought to go back? - He had plenty of time. He should not wait for anyone's opinion, the man in charge.
11271. You say now Simmons ought to have seen for himself that he ought to go back? - Of course, he did.
11272. And whether you communicated with him or not you do not know? - No, I do not.
11273. Could you see one another's faces in the boat at the time? - No.
11274. No? - No.
11275. Did you know Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon from any other member of the party in the boat at that time? - No.
11276. Had you ever heard his voice up to then? - Yes.
11277. Where? - When he said about one man take command of the boat.
11278. Who said, "One man take command of the boat"? - Duff-Gordon.
11279. But the officer who dispatched the boat had given an order to them? - Sir Cosmo repeated it after.
11280. And you heard his voice? - Yes.
11281. Were there two Americans on board? - I knew there were men.
11282. Mr. [Abraham] Salomon and Mr. [Charles E.] Stengel? - I do not know their names.
11283. Have you any idea whether Stengel was in a position to hear this statement of yours, if you made it? - They should have heard it.
11284. Everybody in the boat should have heard? - If they were not deaf.
11285. Assume for a moment that Horswill did not hear and that Simmons did not hear, do you think you are mistaken in supposing that you shouted out that you ought to have gone back? - I am not mistaken at all.
11286. Supposing that Horswill did not hear it; assume for a moment that Horswill is here and that he heard nothing of the kind; how would you account for that? - I do not know; they were thinking of something else; they were too excited perhaps.
11287. Were you all very excited? - No; there was not any excitement.
11288. Was Horswill excited? - No; not that I knew of.
11289. If Horswill is here and did not hear a word from you on this subject, how would you account for that fact? - I do not know.
       Mr. Duke: You cannot tell.

Re-examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

11290. The only matter upon which I want you to give us a little further explanation is how you were sitting in the boat, if you can? - I was sitting with my back to the bows.
11291. Well, you start from the bows; who was right ahead in the bow? - Horswill, I think.
11292. That is right. Was there anybody beside him, or was he sitting beside the bow? - There was another man; I think Collins was at the side of him.
11293. I think he was a fireman? - Yes.
11294. At any rate, he was one of the crew. Who was sitting in the next thwart? - I was sitting in that thwart.
11295. Was anybody next to you? - Taylor, I think, and Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon were in the next thwart.
11296. With you? - No, I was alone on this thwart.
11297. That is what I want to get. You were alone; then in the next thwart, Taylor a fireman, and Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon? - Yes.
11298. Then in the next one? - I do not know who was in the next one. Lady Duff-Gordon, I know. I do not know who the other was.

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11299. Do you mean another lady, or was it a man? - I could not say.
11300. Who was in the stern? - There was a man at the tiller, the coxswain, Simmons, that is all I know. It was dark, I could not see. I did not take notice when daylight came in.
11301. (The Commissioner.) When you were here last you suggested that something had been said in the boat before you reached the "Carpathia" about money? - No; the gentleman said he was giving us a present after he said he would send a wire home if he could.
11302. That was before you got on board the "Carpathia"? - Yes, we did not hear a word at all about any money until we got this a day or two before we got to New York. He said he would give us a present. He never said a word about money.

(The Witness withdrew.)

GEORGE SYMONS, Sworn.

Examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

11303. Is your name Symons or Simmons? - Symons.
11304. And have you been at sea for nearly nine years? - Yes.
11305. You are an able seaman? - Yes.
11306. Have you crossed the Atlantic between England and New York many times? - Yes.
11307. How many times? - I say roughly about 58 to 60; I could not exactly say the correct number.
11308. As an able seaman? - Yes.
11309. And have you also acted as a look-out man? - Yes.
11310. (The Attorney-General.) Your Lordship will remember he comes into the story as look-out man also. (To the Witness.) I will ask you first of all about the look-out. On board this vessel, the "Titanic," you went to the crow's-nest? - Yes.
11311. When it was your duty to go on the look-out? - Yes, when it was my watch.
11312. What other vessels have you been in, liners, crossing between New York and England? - I was in the "Oceanic" for four years and four months, and three years of that I did on the look-out.
11314. And you were actually acting as look-out with Jewell on the "Titanic," I think, from 8 to 10? - Yes.
11315. You were relieved at 10 o'clock, the last watch really before she struck? - Yes.
11316. Whilst you were on the "Oceanic" did you at any time see icebergs? - Yes, once or twice.
11317. At night? - No, not at night, only in the daytime; but we have had orders before to keep a look-out for them in the night in the "Oceanic."
11318. Did you use glasses, binoculars? - Yes.
11319. Special glasses for night, were they? - No; they were an ordinary pair of glasses.
11320. Were they kept in a box in the crow's-nest? - In the "Oceanic" they were kept in a canvas bag.
11321. In the crow's-nest? - In the crow's-nest.
11322. For your use or the use of your mate on the look-out? - Yes.
11323. And you did find them useful? - Yes; very useful.
11324. Were there any on the "Titanic"? - No, none whatever. After we left Southampton and got clear of the Nab Lightship I went up to the officers' mess-room and asked for glasses. I asked Mr. Lightoller, and he went into another officers' room, which I presume was Mr. Murdoch's, and he came out and said, "Symons, there are none." With that I went back and told my mates.
11325. Was there a place for them in the "Titanic"? - Yes, a box in the port after corner.
11326. Of the crow's-nest? - Yes.
11327. Did you join the "Titanic" at Southampton? - Yes.
11328. After you left Queenstown, which, as we know, was 11th April, did you see the boat list up? - Yes, I saw a boat list after we got away from Queenstown, either on the Thursday night or the Friday morning early.
11329. Did you find it in the forecastle? - On the door of the forecastle, at the top of the companionway.
11330. Were there two boat lists posted? - There was one in the forecastle, what they call the emergency boat list, and also on the forecastle door was a general boat list, on which I found my name was assigned to No. 1.
11331. That is an emergency boat? - Yes, an emergency boat on the starboard side.
11332. You looked through the list? Did you notice how many seamen were assigned to the lifeboats? - Yes; there was not one but what had two seamen, and some had an officer. Whether there was more than that I could not say, but I know there was not one with less than two seamen.
11333. No one had less than two seamen, and to some of them there were two seamen and an officer. Is that right? - Yes.
11334. You know Sunday, the night of the 14th April; do you remember getting special orders from the bridge? - Yes; we had special orders about 9.30.
11335. 9.30 that night? - Yes.
11336. Through the telephone? - Through the telephone.
11337. Do you know from whom? - No, I could not say.
11338. From some officer on the bridge? - From some officer on the bridge.
11339. Can you tell me what he said? - "Keep a sharp look-out for small ice and bergs till daylight, and pass the word along." That was the order received by Jewell and me; we both heard it through the 'phone.
11340. Had you noticed anything to lead you to think you might meet icebergs before you got that message? - Yes; just a small conversation, I think, about 9 o'clock. My mate turned round from time to time and said, "It is very cold here." I said, "Yes; by the smell of it there is ice about." He asked me why, and I said, "As a rule you can smell the ice before you get to it."
11341. You thought you could? - Yes.
11342. Did you notice the temperature? - No, I could not tell you anything about the temperature. We were in the crow's-nest.
11343. You were relieved at 10 o'clock at night, and you went below? - Yes.
11344. And was the word passed along? - Yes, it was passed along at 10 o'clock by me and Jewell.
11345. You were relieved, I think, by Fleet and Lee? - Yes.
11346. Then did you go below and turn in? - Yes, I went below and turned in.
11347. What awakened you? - What awakened me was a grinding sound on her bottom. I thought at first she had lost her anchor and chain, and it was running along her bottom. I would not get up. The others got up, but I would not get up as I thought there was nothing the matter.
11348. You did get up eventually? - Yes; Hogg came down to me and told me I had better get up.
11349. Was he another look-out? - Yes, he was another look-out man.
11350. Hogg and Evans? - Yes.
11351. Hogg told you you had better get up and you started dressing, did you? - Yes.
11352. Whilst you were dressing was an order given? - There was an order came to the forecastle door by the boatswain to "Stand by, as you may be wanted at any moment."
11353. Was that to you only, or to all hands? - To the hands in general who were in the forecastle.

Page 254

11354. "All hands stand by"? - Yes, "You may be wanted at any moment."
11355. You heard afterwards what the time was? - Yes, I did not know the time then.
11356. What time was this? - By the time I got on deck it must have been about one bell, a quarter to twelve.
11357. That was after you had this order from the boatswain? - Yes.
11358. Then you went on deck. Did you notice ice on the fore well? - No, I did not go to see the ice.
11359. What did you do when you got on deck? - I came on deck and I went into the mess room in the course of ordinary events to see if there was any coffee. From there I heard the water coming in to No. 1 hold. I looked down No. 1 hold, and hardly had I looked down there when the order came for "All hands on the boat deck."
11360. You said you looked down No. 1 hold. Before you got that order, "All hands on the boat deck," had you seen any water? - Yes, water coming in No. 1.
11361. Water in No. 1? - Yes.
11362. Much? - Yes, coming in a pretty good rush.
11363. (The Commissioner.) I thought you said you heard it? - I heard it first, and then I went and saw it through the gratings, the hatch gratings, as the tarpaulins were off.
11364. (The Attorney - General.) Let us understand what it means. The tarpaulins were off? - Yes.
11365. There is a grating there? - Yes, there are gratings there.
11366. Were not the hatches on? - No, there were no hatches on at that place.
11367. (The Commissioner.) What deck were you on when you saw the water through the grating? - I suppose you would call that the main deck - on the same deck as the forewell deck.
11368. Is it the same deck as that on which the long alleyway is? - No.
11369. Is it the one above it? - Yes.
11370. Were you looking down No. 1 hatch? - Yes, I was looking down No. 1 hatch through the grating when I saw the water.
11371. (The Attorney - General.) I think it must be two decks above, my Lord. I will ask him. (To the Witness.) It is under the forecastle deck you were? - Yes, under the forecastle.
11372. Then, did you have to go down two decks to get to the deck under the alleyway? - Yes; you would go down the stairs and then down a small flight of steps again.
       The Attorney-General: What is called the shelter deck C is where he was, and your Lordship sees he has to get to deck E to the alleyway.
       The Commissioner: On deck C?
11373. (The Attorney - General.) Yes, just under the forecastle deck. He is looking down No. 1 hatch. (To the Witness.) You saw through the gratings; the tarpaulin was off and the hatches were off? - Yes.
11374. There was nothing on the grating between? - There was nothing on the grating at that place then. Whether there were hatches at the fore end or afterend I could not say, but this was about amidships of the hatch.
11375. Could you see from which side the water was coming in? - No, you could not exactly see because the water was nearly up to the coamings of the lower hatch.
11376. (The Commissioner.) You mean nearly up to the coaming of the hatch on the deck? - Yes.
11377. (The Attorney-General.) Let us be clear about this. You were standing on the deck below the forecastle deck, which is deck C? - Yes. As you stand on the C deck you look down through the gratings, and on the hatch below that is where the water was lapping around the tarpaulins and the hatch cover.
11378. There is a hatch with a grating over which you saw, from which the tarpaulin had been removed? - Yes.
11379. Then how far below that would it be before you got to the coamings of what you call the next hatch? - I could not exactly say the distance.
11380. How many decks would it be? - It would be on the next deck.
11381. That makes it quite plain. Tell us as nearly as you can how many decks would you have had to go down to get to the water which was just touching, or just close to, the coamings? - The coamings of the hatch. You would only have to take the gratings off and there was the next coaming to meet you.
11382. How many decks would you have had to go down? - I could not say how many decks you have to go down to the steerage; but the coamings is the next hatch down below the one on C deck, the one we were standing on.
       The Attorney-General: Your Lordship follows. The effect of that would be that the water would be up to D deck. It was coming into the coamings of the hatchway, which would be above D deck.
       The Commissioner: No, I do not understand that.
       The Attorney-General: Well, I did not think he meant that, but it is what he said just now.
11383. (The Commissioner - To the Witness.) Now, listen to me. There was a hatch upon the deck on which you were standing? - Yes.
11384. And that you supposed to be C deck? - Yes.
11385. Now, the hatchways were removed? - Yes, all the blind hatches were removed.
11386. And the tarpaulins were off? - Yes.
11387. And there was nothing but a grid or grating, through which you looked? - Yes.
11388. Now, this hatchway goes right down to the bottom of the ship? - Yes.
11389. There were coamings round the hatchway where you were standing? - Yes.
11390. Where would the next coamings be, down below? - I should think myself -
11391. Would it not be on the next deck? - I think myself a good two decks below, because there is a wide space from that upper coaming to the lower coamings.
11392. That may make a difference. Now, can you show me in the Court, without telling me what the number of feet are, how far below you, when you were looking through the grating, the coamings were where you saw the water? Just show me. Give me an idea. - I should think myself, from that deck there down to where that gentleman is sitting.
11393. Do you mean from the top; this roof that we see over this? - Yes, this platform.
11394. Down to the floor? - Yes, it may have been a little lower.
11395. That would mean two decks lower. The distance between the deck you were standing on and the next deck would be about how much - half that high? - About halfway, Sir.
       The Commissioner: Then that would point to this, that it was two decks down?
       The Attorney-General: Yes. I thought it was more from what he said.
       The Commissioner: Well, it may be.
       The Attorney-General: I will tell your Lordship why I thought so. If you look at the plan I should have taken it from the section to be between F and G decks, because, according to the plan, that is the first indication of coamings.
       Mr. Laing: That is so.
       The Commissioner: Very well; that is right, probably.
       The Attorney-General: There is something like a coaming if you look at C, and then the next one is G.
11396. (The Commissioner - to the Witness.) Will you come round here? (The Witness explained the plan to the Commissioner.)
       The Commissioner: He tells me, looking at this plan, he thinks that the water he saw was by the coaming on G deck.
       The Attorney-General: Yes; I thought that is what he must mean.
       The Commissioner: That would be about 25 feet below it, or something like that.
       The Attorney-General: Your Lordship will remember - I do not know whether you noticed it on the "Olympic" - there was the same thing there. They go through various decks without coamings.
       The Commissioner: Yes, until you go to this deck G.
       The Attorney-General: Yes. That makes it right.

Page 255

11397. (The Commissioner - to the Witness.) Now will you tell me how far below the top of the watertight bulkhead was this water at that time? - This water at that time, I should think roughly, was about a foot around the coamings, running around the coamings. What I want to know is, how far below the top of the watertight bulkhead would it be at the time?
       Mr. Laing: 16 feet 3 inches.
       The Attorney-General: Which bulkhead is that?
       The Commissioner: The Admiral tells me it would be about 16 feet below the top of the bulkhead; so you see that the water he saw would have to rise, assuming the doors to be closed, 16 feet before it would break over the top of the bulkhead. Is there any watertight bulkhead, Mr. Laing, above deck E?
       The Attorney-General: That is just what I am asking, my Lord. According to the plan it looks as if it reaches D in this particular bulkhead. It looks as if the bulkhead B reaches this particular place, that is, this particular bulkhead reaches deck D. I am just asking the question.
       The Commissioner: I see the thick dark line which stops at the bottom of deck E, and then I see the line extending upwards, but it does not look to me as if it was intended to indicate a continuation of the bulkhead.
       The Attorney-General: My friend, Mr. Laing, ought to be able to tell us; but it looks from the plan as if it does. Mr. Wilding will tell your Lordship at once. (Mr. Wilding explained the plan to the Attorney-General.)
       The Attorney-General: It is right; it does go to D, my Lord; it is shown on this section. It does reach D.
       The Commissioner: The collision bulkhead A does not go higher than the floor of deck E, does it?
       The Attorney-General: I understand it does; it is stepped forward. This one is stepped aft.
       The Commissioner: It is not shown on the plan.
       The Attorney-General: No, my Lord; but I think this one is on my plan. It is stepped aft from G deck to D deck. Both A and B reach D deck.
       The Commissioner: Mr. Wilding, will you come round here? (Mr. Wilding explained the plan to the Commissioner.)
       The Commissioner: - to The Attorney-General: Will you look at this plan? I have marked in red pencil how high the bulkheads extend. (The plan was handed to the Attorney-General.)
       The Attorney-General: Yes, my Lord, that is right. A is stepped forward to D deck, B is stepped aft to D deck.
       The Commissioner: The water that he saw would be about 5 feet above the external waterline?
11398. (The Attorney-General - To the Witness.) You saw this water below the coamings? Is that below the coamings on which there are hatchway covers? - Below the coamings is where the hatches come on, and also the cover.
11399. That makes it quite plain that it is G deck. As I understand you, you did not have much time to look at it? - No, I had just time to see the water come in when the order came, "All hands on the boat deck."
11400. You say you saw water coming in; will you help us about that? Was it coming in fast? - Yes, coming in at what I call a moderate pace.
11401. Could you see where it was coming in from? - No, you could only discern by the look of it that it was rising from the starboard side.
11402. (The Commissioner.) I suppose the hatch covers and the tarpaulins were not on the hatchway of deck G? - Yes; the hatch cover was there, all covered up and battened down.
11403. How could you see the water? - I did not know it was coming in over this hatch.
11404. Through the hatch covers? - I could not see whether it was making its way through the hatch cover, but it was running over the hatch, and it looked as if it was mostly coming up the far end of the starboard side - the foremost corner.
11405. (The Attorney-General.) The hatchway in G deck was covered up in the ordinary way by the tarpaulin and hatches? - Yes.
11406. And battened down? - Yes, it was battened down.
11407. Did you see water over that hatchway? - No, it was not over.
11408. Where did you see it? - All round the coamings.
11409. They would be on the deck? - Yes.
11410. Raised on G deck? - Yes.
11411. Do you mean you saw the water round the coamings there? - Yes.
11412. Did you see any water on the tarpaulin? - I never took that much notice of the water on the tarpaulin. The only thing I noticed was the water coming round the coamings of the hatch.
11413. And I think you said from the starboard side particularly? - Yes, it looked as if it was coming from the starboard side in that corner, the foremost end.
       The Commissioner: I took down from you that the water was nearly up to the coamings on deck G; that is inaccurate.
       The Attorney-General: I am not sure that it is, with great respect.
       The Commissioner: Nearly up to the coamings. He says it was running round the coamings.
11414. (The Attorney-General.) Yes, I think I know what he means. (To the Witness.). The coamings are above the deck, and the hatchways rest upon them in that way? - Yes.
11415. Explain in your own way. Will you explain to my Lord what you mean by saying that it was nearly up to the coamings? - Take that box, for instance; there is the hatch in the centre, and all round the hatch you would come to the bulkheads, which I suppose you would call watertight bulkheads, and all around there was a foot, or it may be a little more or less, space between, allowing for the battens to go over the hatches; that is where the water was, right round the hatch.
       The Commissioner: What he means, I think, is this, that the water he saw was nearly to the top of the coamings.
       The Attorney-General: Yes.
       The Commissioner: He means he saw it outside nearly to the top.
11416. (The Attorney-General - To the Witness.) After that you say as you looked at it you got an order to go on to the boat deck? - Yes.
11417. When you got on to the boat deck, what order did you get then? - The order I got on the boat deck from Mr. Murdoch, and also the boatswain was, they gave an order to uncover the boats and get the falls out. I assisted generally in the boats on the starboard fore end, 3, 5, and 7.
11418. Before you go on telling us what happened then, can you give us any idea what time it was when you noticed this water reaching nearly to the coamings of the hatch? - I should think, roughly estimating it, it would be about five minutes to twelve, because, as I was on my way to the deck, so they struck eight bells in the crow's-nest.
11419. When you got up there you told us you assisted to get 3, 5, and 7 ready on the starboard side? - Yes.
11420. Was No. 1 ready? - No. 1 was already swung out.
11421. That is the emergency boat? - Yes.
11422. It is always carried swung out, is it not? - Oh, yes.
11423. By the time you got to the boat deck had the seamen nearly all arrived on the boat deck? - Yes, I think they were pretty well all there.
11424. Had they gone to the boats on the starboard side? - They went to their respective stations, I believe, port and starboard side.
11425. Who was in charge of the starboard side? - Mr. Murdoch.
11426. Was there any difficulty, speaking generally, so far as you could see, in getting out these boats on the starboard side? - None whatever; they never worked better or more comfortably. I have never seen them work better in any ship I have been in.

Page 256

11427. I did not catch that. I think you said you had never seen them work better on any other ship you had been in. Is that right? - Yes.
11428. Were there passengers on the deck when you arrived there? - Yes.
11429. Had they their lifebelts on? - Yes.
11430. Did they crowd round the boats at all? - No; they all kept good order; they kept back to give the men working room.
11431. Was there an order? - Yes, there was one order when we were at boat No. 3. Two or three men of some description, whether stewards or passengers I do not know, were asked to keep back to give the men room to work.
11432. And they did? - Yes.
11433. Were the boats lowered to the deck rail? - After we got all the covers out, the orders were given by Mr. Murdoch to start swinging them out. We started No. 5 first, and then we came back to 3, and then to 7.
11434. Five first, then 3, then forward again, and then? - that is aft? - Yes, that is the next one.
11435. Did you assist in putting passengers in any one of the boats? - I assisted in putting passengers in No. 5 and No. 3, and also assisted to lower No. 3 with the boatswain -
11436. Were you acting all this time under the instructions of Mr. Murdoch? - Under the instructions of Mr. Murdoch and the boatswain.
11437. What is the Boatswain's name? - Nichols.
11438. Were the passengers that you put into the boats men, women, or children? - Women and children. That was the order, and they were put in.
11439. That was the order you got from Mr. Murdoch? - That was the order, "Women and children first."
11440. Can you tell us when you began to help getting the boats out, was there any list of the vessel? - Oh, yes, there was a slight list, if anything in our favour, to starboard.
11441. (The Attorney - General.) Your Lordship asked the question yesterday about the list to starboard. We have heard from one man who says he saw it distinctly from the ship. We have heard of a list to starboard from a witness on the ship, but this witness says that he noticed a list to starboard at the first. (To the Witness.) Whilst you were on the ship did you see any list to port? - I never took particular notice of a list to port. The only way I know she had a list to starboard was when we were lowering away we were clear of everything. When we were being lowered away ourselves we were clear of everything.
       1. (The Commissioner.) The list to starboard helped you? - Yes; it was all in our favour.
11442. (The Attorney-General.) You might have cleared away everything without a list, might not you? - Yes; but if she had had a list to port it would have made it difficult.
11443. Yes. Nobody said she had a list to port at that time. Now tell us about the emergency boat, No. 1.
       The Commissioner: I suppose you will have some theory to explain the great list to port that there was, according to the evidence, on this ship before she went down?
11444. (The Attorney-General.) Yes. It is said the water came in on the starboard side, and so it requires some explanation. (To the Witness.) Speaking of boats 3, 5, and 7, did you see seamen placed in these boats under the order of Mr. Murdoch? - Yes, under the orders of Mr. Murdoch. They were given an order to get in, to get the plugs ready, to see everything was right in the boat, and told to stay there and take the women and children.
11445. Three lifeboats had been lowered away, 3, 5, and 7; were they lowered before you went to No. 1? - No, after we got the three boats out I went and assisted Wynn in clearing away one of the guys on B deck.
11446. Of what? - Of No. 1 boat. From there I went back to the boat deck and assisted generally in putting the passengers in Nos. 3 and 5.
11447. That was the first you had to do with No. 1? - Yes.
11448. You had already cleared away one of the guys? - Yes.
11449. And you went back again and helped to get out the boats 3 and 5? - Yes.
11450. And then after that what did you do? - After I went back on the boat deck we had orders to put the women and children in. I assisted generally, and they lowered down. I do not know whether 5 or 7 went first; I could not say for certain. I was at No. 5; whether No. 7 went before it I could not say. When we got No. 5 away I went back to No. 3 and assisted there generally, and then I helped to lower the forward end of No. 3 along with the Boatswain.
11451. Then you saw 7, 5 and 3 lowered and away? - Yes, they were away when I went to No. 1.
11452. Then you went to No. 1, and did Mr. Murdoch speak to you then? - No, we did not go to No. 1; we were ordered to No. 1.
11453. And then you went? - We went to No. 1, and Mr. Murdoch asked who was assigned to that boat. I said I was, and he said, "Are you a sailor?" I said "Yes." He said, "Jump in and see the plug is in." After that he asked if there were any more sailors. Horswill replied, "I am assigned to that boat." He said, "Jump in." He next gave an order for five firemen to jump in, because there were no passengers around the deck at that time. Other members of the crew were assisting in getting the cover off of the surf boat lying under the emergency boat, if she had been in her place, if she was swung in.
11454. That is the collapsible, we call it? - As he gave orders I saw two ladies come running out of the foremost end of the top saloon deck, running towards the boat, and from there they asked Mr. Murdoch if they could get into that boat, and Mr. Murdoch said, "Yes; jump in." And then, after that, I saw three gentlemen come running up, and they asked if they could get into the boat, and he said, "Yes; jump in." Mr. Murdoch then looked around for more, and there was nobody in sight, only just the remaining members of the crew. He then gave an order to lower away. On the way down, just as we started lowering, he asked who was in charge of the boat. I replied, "Symons, the look-out." He replied, "Symons, take charge of that boat; make all those under you obey you; make them do what you tell them." I replied, "All right." When we were lowered down, just below B deck, we got hung up by a wire guy. I told them on the boat deck to stop lowering. They stopped lowering almost immediately. Then they asked me what the trouble was, and I said we were hung up by a wire guy. Someone came down on the next deck and chopped it away, and from there we proceeded to the water without a mishap and released the boat very satisfactorily.
11455. There was plenty of room in your boat? - Oh, yes.
11456. For a good number of passengers besides those you were taking away? - What do you mean?
11457. I mean there was plenty of room in your boat for more than you were carrying? - Yes; but the order was, "Lower away," and you had to obey orders.
11458. I am not making any complaint against you; I want to get the fact.
11459. (The Commissioner.) I want to be sure about this. Was there plenty of room in the boat for more persons when Mr. Murdoch ordered the boat to be lowered away? - Yes.
11460. Now why did he order the boat to be lowered away while it was not full? - Because, I suppose, he had looked around the deck for other people, as well as I did myself, and there was not another passenger in sight, only just the remainder of the crew getting the surf boat ready.
11461. I do not understand. What time was this? - I could not tell the time; I do not know.
11462. How long before the ship foundered? - Well, I should think myself if I say it was within half an hour I should not be far out. It may have been less.
11463. Half an hour is a long time? - Yes, it may have been less.
11464. Was there no time to find women and children to put into the boat? - I saw Mr. Murdoch running around there. I could not tell why he gave the order. I could not criticise an officer.
       He gave the order to lower away, and I had to obey orders. It is not a seaman's place to criticise an officer in that case.

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11465. I am not asking you to criticise anybody; I am asking you to help me to find out, if I can, why Mr. Murdoch ordered this boat to be lowered into the sea when it was more than half empty? - That I could not tell you; that was his own discretion, I suppose; it was not for me to say anything to him.
11466. How soon after the two ladies had got into the boat, and the three men passengers, did Mr. Murdoch give the order to lower? - I should say, roughly, about three or four minutes.
11467. Three or four minutes after the three men passengers and two ladies got in the order was given to lower that boat? - Yes.
       1. (The Attorney-General.) Was there any list to port at the time this boat was lowered? - The list was to starboard at the time the boat was lowered. That was everything in our favour going down. It was not much; it was very slight.
       
       The Commissioner: The list was still to starboard?
11468. (The Attorney-General.) Yes. (To the Witness.) Before you left the boat deck had you noticed any rockets being fired from the bridge? - Yes, the rockets were going up simultaneously every minute, minute intervals, and that steamer's light was in sight, about a point and a half on the port bow, roughly between five and ten miles away, when they fired the rockets, and they were also working the starboard and port Morse lights.
11469. This was all, of course, before you left? - Yes, before we left.
11470. Whilst you were still on the boat deck? - Yes.
11471. Was this going on on the bridge? - This was on the bridge.
11472. Working the port and starboard Morse light? - Yes.
11473. Could you see the light? - Yes, plain.
11474. The light of a steamer, I understood you to say, or a vessel? - Well, a vessel, one white light.
11475. Where was it? - About a point and a half on the port bow as the ship was standing then.
11476. On the port bow? - On the port bow.
11477. How far distant did it appear? - Between five and ten miles.
11478. And after you put off in No. 1 boat did you still see this light? - Yes. I took the light to be that of a cod-bankman - or fishing vessel.
11479. You did not see any sidelights? - No sidelights whatever.
       The Commissioner: Will you ask him when he first saw the white light?
11480. (The Attorney-General.) Yes. (To the Witness.) When did you first see the white light of which you have spoken? - After No. 3 boat was away.
11481. (The Commissioner.) Yes, but what time of night would that be? - That would be in the early part of the morning.
11482. What time? - That I could not say, because I did not know the time at the time. I should think myself it would be about one o'clock; it may have been a little after - between one and half-past.
11483. That would be about an hour before the vessel foundered? - Roughly.
11484. (The Attorney-General.) At any rate it was before you went to work on the boat deck at No. 1 boat? - It was after No. 3 boat was away that I saw the light.
11485. It was after that that you went to No. 1 boat to work? - Yes.
11486. Could you detect at all whether there was any more signaling about? Could you see if there was any vessel Morse signaling to you? - No.
11487. All you could see was your vessel Morse signaling to some other? - Yes.
11488. Do you remember getting an order from Mr. Murdoch to stand off a little way when the boat was lowered? - Yes, my orders were to pull away from the ship, not too far, and to stand by if I was called back.
11489. That we have not had from you yet. That is what I wanted. That is quite right. Your Lordship will see the importance of it all. You have it in mind. Question 5011 is what Hendrickson said about this He was cross-examined about it. That substantially agrees, I think, with what Hendrickson says. I will read you what he says: "We were told to stand off a little way and come back when called." That is right? - That is what Mr. Murdoch gave me.
11490. Now, at the time you left that No. 1 boat, was the forecastle head of the "Titanic" under water? - After we got away the forecastle head, the first lot of ports - that would be C deck under the forecastle head, I think. What deck would you call that? That lot of ports there (pointing on the model.) was just awash under her name.
11491. That is at the top, just under the forecastle head? - No; these here (pointing on the model.)
11492. It is the second row, really? - Yes, the second row.
11493. The first row under the well deck? - Yes, that is right.
11494. That was after you had got away in your boat? - After we got into the water.
11495. (The Commissioner.) And how far aft were those lights below the water? - They were just coming awash then.
11496. How far aft? Just turn to the model; take note of the ship and tell me how far aft those lights were under water? - Certainly the foremost ones were more submerged, if anything, than the after ones.
       The Commissioner: Of course they were.
11497. (The Attorney-General.) Perhaps I may put it in a different form. Had it reached the mast? - No.
11498. Not as far aft as that? - No; not quite so far as the mast.
11499. Then you pulled away? - Yes.
11500. And did you see the "Titanic" go down? - Yes, I watched her.
11501. Now just tell us about that? - After I left the ship I gave the order to pull away. We were pulling very hard; we were pulling very steady; a moderate pull. After I gave that order we pulled away I should say about 200 yards, and I told them to lay on their oars, and just a little while after that, after I saw that the ship was doomed, I gave the order to pull a little further and so escape the suction.
11502. Now, just one moment. Just tell us why you say "after I saw the ship was doomed" you pulled away 200 yards? What was it that you saw that made you think that? - Because her forecastle head was well under water then. Her lights had all disappeared then. You could see her starboard sidelight, which was still burning, was not so very far from the water, and her stern was well up in the air.
11503. When you say all her lights went out, do you mean right away astern too? - No, just her foremost lights had disappeared, and her starboard sidelight left burning was the only light, barring the masthead light, on that side of the bridge that I could see.
11504. Then you saw her with her stern out? - Yes.
11505. Will you give us an idea what angle was her stern as far as you could see? How did it look to you; was it all up? - More like that with a cant. (Describing.) I do not know what position you would call it altogether.
11506. Was it out of water? - Yes.
11507. Did you see her keel? - No, you could not see her keel.
11508. (The Commissioner.) Could you see the propellers? - You could just see the propellers.
11509. (The Attorney-General.) You could see the propellers? - Yes.
11510. Then when you saw her like that, what was the next thing that happened? - Being the master of the situation, I used my own discretion. I said nothing to anybody about the ship being doomed, in my opinion. I pulled a little further away to escape, if there was any suction. A little while after that we pulled a little way and lay on the oars again. The other boats were around us by that time, and some were pulling further away from us. I stood and watched it till I heard two sharp explosions in the ship. What they were I could not say. Then she suddenly took a top cant, her stern came well out of the water then.

Page 258

11511. A top cant? - You know what I mean to say, she took a heavy cant and her bow went down clear.
11512. Head downwards? - Head down, and that is the time when I saw her lights go out, all her lights. The next thing I saw was her poop. As she went down like that so her poop righted itself and I thought to myself, "The poop is going to float." It could not have been more than two or three minutes after that that her poop went up as straight as anything; there was a sound like steady thunder as you hear on an ordinary night at a distance, and soon she disappeared from view.
11513. Let us see if we quite understand what you are saying about it. Suppose that is the stem and that is the stern. (Describing.) You saw her first of all with her stem downward? - Yes.
11514. I understand you to say you saw her stem downwards? - Yes.
11515. Did you see her head going well down? - Her head was going well down.
11516. And you saw her stern out of the water like that? (Describing.) - Yes, her stern was well out of the water.
11517. I understand you to say that at one period you saw her stern right itself? - It righted itself without the bow; in my estimation she must have broken in half.
11518. Can you form any idea from what part of the vessel it was that she appeared to right herself? - I should think myself it was abaft the after expansion plate.
11519. (The Commissioner.) Where is that? - That is the expansion plate. They have two expansion plates.
       The Commissioner: Show it to me on that wooden model.
11520. (The Attorney-General - To the Witness.) Can you tell us where it was; which one you mean? - The one furthest aft.
11521. Where was it? - I should say it would be about abeam of the after funnel, or a little forward.
11522. About there? - Yes.
       The Attorney-General: I do not know whether your Lordship saw on the "Olympic" what he means by the expansion plate; it is noticeable on the deck.
       The Commissioner: I understand that.
11523. (The Attorney-General.) Then you saw her right herself - this part of her? - Yes; I saw the poop right itself.
11524. And then it went up? - Yes; then it went up and disappeared from view.
11525. And then went right down? - Yes.
11526. When you saw the "Titanic" go down did you hear any cries from the people that went down with the boat? - Yes.
11527. Did you try to rescue them? - I thought at the time, being master of the situation, it was not safe in any case to go back at that time.
11528. Do I understand from that, then, that your answer is that you did not try? - Not at that time; not as soon as the ship disappeared.
11529. Let us understand that. You heard cries? - Yes.
11530. And cries which you knew were of persons in distress? - Quite so.
11531. Gone down with the vessel? - Yes.
11532. Many, I suppose? - Yes, a decent few it sounded like.
11533. And you had plenty of room in your boat? - Yes.
11534. If you could have reached any one of those persons you could have saved the life of that person? - Yes, but I thought at the time, by using my own discretion, that it was not safe in any way to have gone back to that ship as she disappeared.
11535. But, apart from going back to the ship, you could have gone back, could you not, some way to pick up persons, without going into the seething mass of people? - The thing is those people, I suppose, would be together when they go down.
11536. But they do not all stop together? - No, that is true. They do not stop together as a rule.
11537. You were there with ample room? - Yes; we had room say for another eight or a dozen more in the boat. I do not know what the boat's complement is.
11538. The boat's complement is 40, and you had 12? - If there were 40 in that boat there would not be room.
11539. What? - I think myself if there were 40 in that boat practically when the sea rose in the morning it would not be safe.
11540. The sea did not rise. If the sea had risen I daresay it might have been so; but we are speaking of a calm night. The sea was quite calm at this time. You quite understood you were to be ready to go back if called? - That is right.
11541. Do you tell my Lord that you determined, without consultation with anybody, that you would not go back? - I determined by my own wish, as I was master of the situation, to go back when I thought that most of the danger was over.
11542. What? - I used my own discretion, as being master of the situation at the time, that it was not safe to have gone back at that time until everything was over.
11543. (The Commissioner.) I want to know why? What was it that you were afraid of? - I was not afraid of anything; I was only afraid of endangering the lives of the people I had in the boat.
11544. How? What was the danger? The ship had gone to the bottom. She was no longer a danger. What were you afraid of? - At that time the ship had only just disappeared.
11545. Never mind, it had disappeared, and had gone down to the bottom, two miles down, or something like that. What were you afraid of? - I was afraid of the swarming.
11546. Of what? - Of the swarming of the people - swamping the boat.
11547. That is it, that is what you were afraid of. You were afraid there were too many people in the water? - Yes.
11548. And that your boat would be swamped? - Yes.
       The Commissioner: I am not satisfied at all.
11549. (The Attorney - General.) Now, I want to know a little more about that. Was the question raised about your going back to the people who were shrieking at this time? - None whatever.
11550. Do you mean to tell my Lord that nobody ever mentioned, amongst the people that you had in that boat, going back to try to save some of the people who were in the water drowning? - I never heard anybody of any description, passengers or crew, say anything as regards going back. Had there been anything said I was almost sure to have heard it.
11551. You mean nothing was said, either by you or anybody? - I used my own discretion.
11552. You have told us that several times. I understand that you used your discretion, and that you were master of the situation; we have got those phrases. What I am asking you about now is whether at that time you heard anything said by anybody on the boat about going back? - None whatever.
11553. Either by you or by any of the crew? - No.
11554. Or by any of the passengers? - No.
11555. Then, if I understand correctly what you say, your story to my Lord is; the vessel had gone down; there were the people in the water shrieking for help; you were in the boat with plenty of room; nobody ever mentioned going back; nobody ever said a word about it; you just simply lay on your oars. Is that the story you want my Lord to believe? - Yes, that is the story.
11556. (The Commissioner.) You told me that there were what you called "a pretty good few" - I think that was your expression - "in the water"? - Yes.
11557. Calling for help? - Yes.
11558. Could you see them? - No.
11559. Then you could not tell whether there was a swarm round your boat? - No, Sir; I was only going by the cries.
11560. Did not you think it was worthwhile trying to get near one or two of them. You could hear them, you know? - Yes, you could hear them.
       The Commissioner: However, you did not do it.
11561. (The Attorney - General.) Did you ever go back to try to pick up any of these people? - Yes, after we rowed a little way, as we were going for this self same light of my first story, we stopped; we laid on our oars. Then I gave the order to pull back, and told the men in the boat we would pull back to the other boats. I was going my way back then as near as I possibly could to the scene of the disaster after we met the other boat. I strained my ears to hear whether I could hear anybody, any person whatever making a cry.

Page 259

11562. (The Commissioner.) And you heard no one? - I heard no one.
11563. They were all drowned by that time; is not that so? - I could not say that, Sir, because there were some picked up in a boat out of the water before daylight, according to the other story. Of course, I cannot say about other people.
11564. (The Attorney - General.) Did you know Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon before he got into that boat? - No, Sir.
11565. Did you know Hendrickson? - I did not know Hendrickson then. I knew nobody only Oswald.
11566. Did you hear anybody in the boat say that you ought to go back to try and save some of the people? - No.
11567. Did you hear anybody talking in the boat at all at this time? - No.
11568. You were all silent? - We were all doing our work. They were saying nothing. I heard no conversation whatever.
11569. From the passengers or anybody else? - No.
11570. What part of the boat were you in? - I was in the stern.
11571. Close to the passengers? - There was a lady and a gentleman sitting in front of me. I was standing up in the stern.
11572. Where were the other passengers? - From what I could see in the morning when we came to get the daylight, there was one lady sitting on the other side, the fore side, by the fireman that was pulling. There was one of the fireman pulling at the starboard oar; and there was a lady sitting on the foreside of him, and the gentleman was sitting like on the other side, on the port side further forward.
11573. Did you hear one of the passengers say that it would be too dangerous to go back? - No, Sir; I heard nothing.
11574. That you might get swamped? - No, I heard nothing.
11575. That was your view, that it was too dangerous to go back, because you might get swamped? - Yes.
11576. That is what you thought? - That was my own view, yes.
11577. Did you hear anybody express that same view? - No.
11578. Then, or at any time? - No.
11579. At any time? - No.
11580. Since. Have you discussed it since? - No.
11581. Have you never heard anybody say since that it was too dangerous to go back, that you might get swamped? - No. The first thing that I have seen about that was when I arrived in England on Saturday and I read Hendrickson's evidence in the papers.
11582. Who showed it to you? - I bought the paper myself and read it.
11583. I want to understand. You bought a paper, and then were you seen by somebody? - I was not seen by nobody. I was travelling in the train by myself.
11584. Have you been seen by any solicitors in the case? - What do you mean, Sir?
11585. Has any lawyer seen you about your evidence? - I have given evidence in two or three places.
11586. I would just like to understand what you mean about making a statement. Were you asked to make a statement to somebody representing Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon? - Well, I was asked to make a statement, and I just simply told the truth.
       Mr. Duke: I wish you would emphasise the latter part of that - "on behalf of Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon." He was asked to make a statement, but not so far as I am aware on behalf of Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon - if you would not mind eliciting whether he says that or not.
11587. (The Attorney-General.) I will ask him again. Were you asked to make a statement by somebody on behalf of Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon? - Yes, they did say they were representing Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon.
11588. When was that? - It may have been Tuesday night or it may have been Wednesday night. Tuesday night I believe.
11589. You mean last Tuesday? - Yes.
11590. (The Commissioner.) Where was it? - At Weymouth.
11591. (The Attorney - General.) When did you arrive - Saturday night? - At Weymouth.
11592. When did you arrive home from America? - On Saturday morning at half-past seven at Liverpool.
11593. Where did you go to from Liverpool? - To Weymouth direct.
11594. Do you live at Weymouth? - Yes, that is my home.
11595. Had Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon your address at Weymouth then? - That I could not say.
11596. Do you know how he got into communication with you at Weymouth, or somebody on his behalf? - I could not say.
11597. When you were at Weymouth did someone on behalf of Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon get into communication with you? - Yes, they came down to see me.
11598. When did you get to Weymouth? - On Saturday evening.
11599. When was it that somebody came to see you on their behalf? - It must have been on Tuesday evening.
11600. Was that the first time that somebody had been to see you since your return to this country? - Yes.
11601. Was it a gentleman? - I beg pardon.
11602. Was it a gentleman - a man - who came to see you? - It was a gentleman.
11603. Two men? - A gentleman.
11604. Then you made a statement to him? - Yes, just a statement.
11605. (The Commissioner.) Did you know that he was coming? Had they written to you to say he was coming? - I just knew that there was a gentleman coming, but I did not know who he was.
11606. How did you know that there was a gentleman coming? - How did I know? - the message was brought to my house that somebody was coming to see me.
11607. Who brought the message? - By telephone.
11608. Where from? - That I could not say.
11609. Was it from somewhere in Weymouth? - Oh, yes; the message came through to Weymouth.
11610. Was the message from somebody in Weymouth? - No, Sir, that I could not say, because the man brought -
11611. How long before the gentleman came did you get this telephone message? - In the afternoon, Sir.
11612. How long before he came did you get the message? How long after the message did the gentleman turn up? - About six hours, I suppose.
11613. Six hours? - It may have been that.
11614. Did you ask through the telephone who he was? - I never had nothing to do with the telephone whatsoever.
11615. Who had? - The man brought me the message.
11616. Where from? - From a place in the town. That I could not tell you, I do not know.
11617. Who is the man? - That I could not tell you, Sir. Perhaps my parents might. I was not in at the time.
11618. (The Attorney-General.) When was it that you had the telephone message. Was it on the Tuesday? - It must have been on the Tuesday, yes.
11619. The message was given to your parents then? - Yes, the message was left with my parents.
11620. Had you communicated with Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon since your return? - No, I communicated with no one.
11621. Had you ever given them your address? - Not as I know of. They asked me for my name aboard the ship, with one of the firemen. I cannot say for certain whether at the time I gave the address or not. I gave my name, but I think it was only my name.

Page 260

11622. You do not know how they knew you were at Weymouth? - No, that I do not know.
11623. Do you know how they knew that you had arrived home? - No, I do not.
11624. No idea? - No.
11625. (The Commissioner.) Do you happen to know the name of the gentleman who came to see you? - No, I do not.
11626. You never asked him his name? - I never asked the gentleman's name.
11627. Have you ever seen him since? - No.
11628. (The Attorney - General.) How long was he with you? - I suppose, roughly, it might have been an hour, or it might have been a little more.
11629. (The Commissioner.) He took down what you said, I suppose in writing? - That I could not say, Sir, what he was doing of.
11630. (The Attorney - General.) Was he writing when you were there? - He just wrote down a little, but what he was doing of I could not say; I never said much, I just simply stated the truth, and that is all.
       The Commissioner: I understand, Mr. Duke, you have heard nothing of all this?
       Mr. Duke: I have just been inquiring, my Lord.
       The Commissioner: You have heard nothing of it?
       Mr. Duke: No, my Lord, I have not, but I have been inquiring, and I think presently I may be able to give your Lordship some information about it.
11631. (The Attorney - General.) Did you sign any statement at this interview? - Yes, I signed my name.
11632. What happened to the statement? - That I cannot say.
11633. Was it taken away by this gentleman? - Yes.
       The Attorney-General: I call for it. Have you got it, Mr. Duke?
       Mr. Duke: No, I have not got it, Mr. Attorney. I am making every inquiry I can. I think I know something about what happened about this now. I have been making inquiries.
11634. (The Commissioner.) It was not, I suppose, a newspaper gentleman? - That I could not say, Sir.
11635. (The Attorney - General.) Were you asked whether you were master of the situation? - Oh, yes, Sir; I was asked that.
11636. That is what the gentleman said to you? - Yes.
11637. The gentleman asked you, were you master of the situation, and I suppose you said "Yes"? - Certainly, Sir.
11638. Were you asked whether you exercised your discretion? - How do you mean "exercised my discretion"?
11639. That was your expression today; it is not mine. Did that gentleman say to you, "Did you exercise your discretion"? - Is that for me to say in the Court here?
11640. I am asking you? - I know you are asking me, but is that for me to say?
11641. Whether the gentleman asked you that? - Whether the gentleman asked me that?
11642. Why should you be so shy about it? - I am not shy at all about it.
11643. Why do you want the protection of the Court? Why don't you answer the question? - You put the question to me, and I told you - the master of the situation.
11644. Just follow what I am putting to you. You say a gentleman was there with you? - Yes.
11645. And he put questions to you? - Yes.
11646. I am asking you, did he put this question to you: "Did you exercise your discretion as to whether you should go back or not"? - I told him "Yes."
11647. The Commissioner: Then he did ask you the question, and you said "Yes"? - Yes.
11648. (The Attorney - General.) Did the gentleman tell you that you ought not to say anything about this? - The gentleman said nothing whatsoever to me, Sir.
11649. I do not quite understand why you should have objected to answering the question I put to you? - I think myself, Sir, like this. I do not know who the gentleman was, neither did I altogether at that time, and it was in my own private home; and I think myself it was not a case to put before the Court.
11650. Do not drop your voice - you thought it was not a case to put before the Court? - Not that question you put then.
11651. But why not? - I have answered it now, so that it has gone.
11652. I would like to understand why it is that you think that question ought not to be put to you. What is your objection to it? - I think myself, Sir, that what you do in your own private life is no business of no one. That is what I think, and that is a sailor's view of it.
11653. So that you thought that this conversation between you and this gentleman representing Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon ought to be treated as private? - It was no business of nobody's.
11654. Neither of the Court's nor of anybody else? - Not in that regard, no, because there was nothing more than I just simply stated the outline of the thing.
11655. Did he ask you whether you had read Hendrickson's story to the Court? - No, Sir.
11656. Did he ask you whether you had heard anything about what Hendrickson had said to the Court? - No, Sir, not as I am aware of.
11657. What? - No, I knew what Hendrickson had said then.
11658. I am asking you what he put to you. Did he mention Hendrickson? - No.
11659. (The Commissioner.) Did you mention Hendrickson? - No, Sir.
11660. Now, just think. You had read Hendrickson's story? - Yes.
11661. And it was a very important story? - Yes.
11662. And this gentleman came to talk to you about Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon who had been mentioned in Hendrickson's story? - Yes.
11663. Do you mean to tell me that neither you nor he mentioned Hendrickson's name at all? - Not Hendrickson's name - no, Sir.
11664. What do you mean by that. Did he mention somebody else's name? - I simply said that it was pretty good evidence what that man gave last week. No name was mentioned whatever.
       The Commissioner: What is the meaning of that?
11665. (The Attorney - General.) "It was pretty good evidence what that man gave last week." Did you mean by "that man" Hendrickson? - Yes, I suppose that is what I meant.
11666. You did not mention his name? - No.
11667. But they knew to whom you referred? - I take it so.
11668. And you knew they had come to see you about that? - No, not about that question.
11669. Think. Do you mean to say you did not know that this gentleman had come to see you because of what had been said by Hendrickson to this Court? Is that what you are telling my Lord? - What do you mean, Sir, putting it that way? I do not quite follow what you mean?
11670. Do not you? - No.
11671. Let me try and put it to you again. Did not you know that this gentleman had come to see you because of what Hendrickson had said to this Court about what had happened in No. 1 boat? - I suppose that is what he did come there for, for protection, I suppose, to hear my story, and I gave him the brief outlines.
11672. You knew he had come because of what was suggested against Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon? - I believe that is what it was for.
11673. Did not he tell you so? - He told me he was representing Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon.
11674. And did not he tell you he had come to see you about the story of this man Hendrickson, or of some man? - No; he just simply came and asked if I would give a brief outline of the story, and I gave it.
11675. A brief outline of the story? - Yes.
11676. How long did it take you to give that brief outline? - Just over an hour, I suppose.
11677. He put questions to you? - No - he may have put one or two now and then.

Page 261

11678. You told me about the exercise of your discretion and your being master of the situation. Those you have told me about? - Yes.
11679. Did you say anything to him about having received any money from Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon? Do speak up. - I was just thinking whether I said anything. I will not tell a lie.
       The Commissioner: Do speak a little louder, please.
       The Attorney-General: That does not want much thinking about, whether you had any money from Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon.
       Mr. Duke: You asked him whether he told the gentleman that he had received the money.
11680. (The Attorney - General.) I say it does not want much thinking about to recollect that you had the money. - That is right enough, but I am just thinking whether I mentioned it or not to the man. It is no use my telling you a lie. I was just thinking whether I said it.
11681. (The Commissioner.) Now think, and tell us what the answer is? - Yes, I did tell him. I told him that at the time it was given me it was a surprise.
11682. A surprise? - Yes, it was a great surprise to me when I received it.
11683. (The Attorney - General.) That is what you told him? - Yes.
11684. How much did you have? - Is that a question to submit, Sir?
11685. (The Commissioner.) Yes? - £5.
11686. (The Attorney - General.) Have you had any more since? - No, none whatever.
11687. That is all you have had altogether? - That is all I have had.
11688. When did you have that? - About a day - it may have been two - before we arrived in New York on the "Carpathia."
11689. I understood you to say to my Lord just now that that came upon you as a surprise? - Yes, quite a surprise packet.
11690. You mean you had never heard of any present? - No, Sir, I heard of nothing.
11691. From Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon? - No, Sir, I heard nothing.
11692. Either a present or a gift of money? - I only know I heard that they took my name, and I understood from the other fireman they were to send a wire to our parents.
11693. They were to send a wire to your parents? - That is what the other fireman said. Of course, I did not know the fireman's name at the time.
11694. Did you hear Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon say anything at all in the boat? - No, Sir; I heard Sir Cosmo say nothing.
11695. How many hours were you in the boat before you were picked up by the "Carpathia"? - It must have been five or more.
11696. Did you hear any of the crew say anything? - No, Sir; they only gave a bit of a cheer when they sighted the "Carpathia" first.
11697. Are we to understand from you that during the whole time you were in the boat nothing was ever said until a cheer was raised when you saw the "Carpathia"? - There may have been a conversation among themselves, but I heard nothing.
11698. You did not hear it? - No. They may have been speaking among themselves.
11699. There may have been conversation going on without your hearing it? Is that what you mean? - Yes.
11700. Were not you surprised that nobody suggested that you should go back to pick up the people who were drowning? - Yes, I was rather surprised.
11701. You were rather surprised? - Yes.
11702. Were you looking towards the "Titanic"? Were you facing towards the "Titanic" or away from her when you were rowing? - How do you mean?
11703. When you were steering in the boat? - When I was steering away from the boat my back was turned. I was watching the "Titanic."
11704. Then, when you stopped and lay on your oars were you facing the "Titanic" then? - The boat was not. The boat was pulling away, but I myself was facing the "Titanic." I was watching the ship.
11705. When you heard the cries were you facing the vessel - or, rather, facing the place where the "Titanic" had been? - No, Sir; our stern was to the place then.
11706. Your back was turned? - Yes, we were a good way away at that time.
11707. And the other people would be looking towards the place? - The people that was rowing would be, Sir.
11708. That would be Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon; he would be facing you? - I could not say. I could not see. You could not discern the people in the dark.
11709. You could not tell which way he was facing? - No.
11710. I would just like to understand the end of your story about this. You continued rowing and resting, as I understand, laying on the oars - that is the crew in the boat? - Yes.
11711. Until you sighted the "Carpathia"? - No. After we continued rowing, as I have said, we came back again. I stated that just now.
11712. Did you row towards the light that you had mentioned? - We were rowing for the light. The light was bearing roughly on our port beam when we were rowing away from the ship.
11713. And did you row towards it? - Yes, Sir, rowing after it.
11714. But it disappeared? - Yes.
11715. Did you appear to be catching it up at all? - No. I thought my own self she was gradually going away from us.
11716. Do you remember what time you were picked up by the "Carpathia"? - That I could not say.
11717. It was, of course, after daybreak? - Yes, a good time after daybreak.
11718. I see you gave evidence in America? - Yes, and there is one mistake there that I should like to correct.
11719. I think, your Lordship, you have that before you. I will hand it up. (The copy was handed to the Commissioner.) What is the mistake that you want to correct? - There is one mistake that was made there - that I rowed back, I think the Consul said, and saw the wreckage, but it should have been "I saw nothing."
11720. You may perhaps be referring to something else. You mean the deposition you made in America? - Yes, first of all before the British Consul.
11721. I suppose this is what you are referring to, My Lord, I am now referring to his deposition made on 2nd May, 1912. The only passages I find which refer to this at all are these, and I think they contain the part he now wants to correct. It is quite short. It begins: "Shortly after I had got on the boat deck I noticed rockets being fired at very frequent intervals from the bridge, Morse signals being used; and at about 12.30 I saw about one point on the port bow distant some five or six miles a light which I took to be the stern light of a cod bank fisherman." That is right? - That is right.
11722. "And after we had put off from No. 1 boat I saw this light still bearing in much the same direction and at about the same distance away. I saw no red or green lights at all at this time. At this time the forecastle-head of the "Titanic" was all awash; and when we were about a quarter of a mile off I heard two sharp explosions following each other rapidly. The "Titanic" seemed to me to split in two, the head disappearing completely, and the poop coming up and seeming to right itself for a moment, the lights all went suddenly out, and she seemed to take an upturn plunge, standing up on end, and with a roar she disappeared. We felt no effect of suction through her sinking at the point where we were, about a quarter of a mile away." Now, listen to this, which I think is the only passage which relates to what happened when you were in the boat. "After waiting for a little we rowed back to where we thought the "Titanic" had disappeared, and it was difficult in the darkness to determine the spot, and we had no light in the boat, and we found nothing except some floating wreckage"? - That is where the mistake is - that "floating wreckage."

Page 262

11723. What is it you want to correct? - "I saw nothing." That is all.
11724. You saw nothing? - That is right, Sir.
       The Commissioner: There is no reference here to any cries or to there being any people in the neighbourhood.
       The Attorney-General: There is no reference, my Lord, of any kind to it. That is all the reference there is to what happened except the description of the sinking of the "Titanic" and the wreckage, which he now says is a mistake.
       The Commissioner: The "floating wreckage"?
       The Attorney-General: Yes, I think, my Lord, this might be put in. I will put it in.
11725. (The Commissioner - To the Witness.) There is one point, you know, that I want to ask you. You said that you were surprised that no one in the boat suggested that you should go to the assistance of these drowning people. Do you remember saying that to me just now? - Yes.
11726. That you were surprised? - I expected fully for someone to say something about it?
11727. That seemed reasonable? - Yes, that seemed reasonable, Sir.
11728. But you would not have thought it was reasonable if they had said it? - Not at that time, no Sir.
       The Attorney-General: I am not going to read it now - it may be necessary to refer to it afterwards, but he has given evidence in America before the Committee. I think I handed that up, did not I?
       The Commissioner: No, you have not handed me anything up.
11729. (The Attorney-General.) This is it (The document was handed in.) That is his testimony given before Senator Perkins. (To the Witness.) I just want you to hear what you said there. Listen to this. Is this right? "(Q.) What boat did you go from the ship in? - (A.) No. 1. (Q.) Who was in command of her? - (A.) I was. (Q.) How many passengers did you have on her? - (A.)From 14 to 20"? - Yes; that is what I thought I had there at the time, in the dark.
11730. (The Commissioner.) But you were not in the dark when you were sitting in this Court giving evidence? - No, Sir, not at that time.
11731. Then why did you say that you had from 14 to 20 passengers when you had only five? - I think, if I am speaking right, Senator Bourne asked how many was in the boat all told.
11732. (The Attorney-General.) I think, my Lord, if you read on that is all right. If you read on a little you will see he asked the question quite correctly, and evidently you misunderstood it? - That is right, Sir.
11733. He is asked: "How many passengers did you have on her?" I suppose he meant passengers in the boat. " (A.) From 14 to 20. (Q.) Were they passengers or crew? - (A.) They were passengers. At first they put in seven of the crew. There was seven men ordered in, two seamen and five firemen. They were ordered in by Mr. Murdoch. (Q.) How many did this boat carry? - (A.) I could not say for certain. It was one of the small accident boats. (Q.) After she got into the water would she take any more? - (A.) She would have taken more. (Q.) How many did you have, all told? - (A.) I would not say for certain. It was 14 or 20. Then we were ordered away. (Q.) You did not return to the ship again? - (A.) Yes, we came back after the ship was gone and we saw nothing." It still leaves it rather in doubt, I think, that is all there is about the numbers. (To the Witness.) Do you mean to say that the 14 or 20 that you said was meant to include everybody in the boat? - Yes, everybody.
       The Attorney-General: But you knew you were only twelve, all told?
       The Commissioner: It does not strike me that that is what it means. The question is put: "How many passengers did you have on her?" and the answer is: "From 14 to 20. (Q.) Were they passengers or crew? - (A.) They were passengers. At first they put in seven of the crew. There were seven men ordered in, two seamen and five firemen. They were ordered in by Mr. Murdoch. (Q.) How many did this boat carry? - (A.) I could not say for certain. It was one of the small accident boats. (Q.) After she got into the water would she take any more? - (A.) She would have taken more. (Q.) How many did you have all told?" Of course that may mean crew and passengers, but it does not read as if it did.
       The Attorney-General: Certainly; the earlier questions do not.
11734. The Commissioner: "(A.) I would not say for certain. It was 14 or 20. Then we were ordered away." But anyway you must have known perfectly well when you gave this evidence that the number in that boat of yours was 12 and no more. Why did you say 14 or 20? - How do you mean, Sir, at that time?
11735. Yes. In America before the Court there. You must then have known quite well how many there were in your boat? - Yes, Sir, speaking in that way.
11736. Why did you tell them in America that there were 14 to 20 people in the boat when you knew as a fact that there were only 12? - I think myself, Sir, that the mistake I made then was through the way they muddle us about there.
       The Commissioner: There does not seem much muddling about that.
11737. (The Attorney-General.) You were asked a very plain question: "How many passengers did you have in her? - (A.) From 14 to 20. (Q.) Were they passengers or crew? and your answer is, "They were passengers." - There must have been a mistake there, because I distinctly told Senator Bourne, or whatever his name was, the people that were in the boat.
11738. We have got exactly what you said; it was taken down in shorthand. "At first they put in seven of the crew." Did you know the names of the other passengers? - No.
11739. Did you know the names of any of the passengers? - No, Sir, none whatever.
11740. When you were in America? - In America, yes, because I knew the gentleman then Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon.
11741. But did you know anybody else? - No.
11742. I notice that there is nothing in your statement here or in the deposition to show that Mr. Murdoch had given you the order to go a short way off and stand by and come back when called? - No, there is nothing in the evidence.
11743. You never said that before? - I never said that before.
11744. Not till I asked you today? - Not till you asked me today. You put the question to me in a proper manner, whereas in America they did not, in that way of speaking.
11745. Did you tell the gentleman who saw you at Weymouth that that order had been given? - Yes, Sir.
       The Commissioner: Is there anything in this American evidence about the money?
11746. (The Attorney-General.) I am going to ask him about that. There are two further things that I want to ask him, but I may as well put that to him first. Did you say anything in America about having received the £5? - Nothing whatever, and I was not asked, or asked to make a statement previously, of what was given in the boat.
11747. I may take it that nothing was said about it at all? - That is right, Sir.
11748. Just listen to what you said in America. This is just at the bottom of page 40 and the top of page 41 where you stopped just now, my Lord. "(Q.) You did not return to the ship again? - Yes, we came back after the ship was gone, and we saw nothing. (Q.) Did you rescue anyone that was in the water? - No, Sir; we saw nothing when we came back. (Q.) Was there any confusion or excitement among the passengers? - No, Sir; nothing whatever; it was just the same as if it was an everyday affair. (Q.) Was there any rush to get into either one of these boats? - (A.) No, Sir, I never saw it. I never saw any rush whatsoever. (Q.) Did you hear any cries of people in the water? - (A.) Oh, yes, Sir; I heard the cries. (Q.) Did you say your boat could take more? Did you make any effort to get them? - Yes, we came back, but when we came back we did not see anybody nor hear anybody. (Q.) Then, what did you do after that? - (A.). After we rowed around, we rowed around and picked up with another boat, and both stuck together; one boat with a lot of people." I have called your attention to that. You see you were asked these very questions which we have been putting to you today, first, whether you heard cries of people in the water. You remember that? - Yes.

Page 263

11749. Then you were asked whether you made any effort to get there, that is the people from whom you heard the cries? - Yes.
11750. It is pointed out to you that you had said your boat could take more? - Yes, I did say so.
11751. Your answer to that is, "Yes, we came back, but when we came back we did not see anybody nor hear anybody."? - That is quite right.
11752. Why did not you tell him what you have told us today, that you heard the cries, but in the exercise of your discretion and as master of the situation you had determined not to go back because you thought you might be swamped? Why did not you tell them that? - My idea of the whole concern was that they had us in three at a time in America - that you have not got there I expect - to get us through as quick as possible. He was putting his questions as quick as he possibly could to get us through - three of us; that was Hogg, Perkis, and myself.
11753. You realise that this does not give quite a true account, does it, as I read it to you? - No, not the same as I have given here.
11754. It leaves out altogether this important matter about whether or not you should go back to save these people? - Yes, that is left out.
11755. Nothing was said about that at all? - Nothing was said to me about that whatever.
11756. I do not quite understand, you know, why you suggest that you were muddled about it there. The Senator put this question to you: "Did you make any effort to get them?" and your answer is, "Yes, we came back, but when we came back we did not see anybody nor hear anybody." - That was the question that he put to me when I said that answer. I told him what I had done, which I do not expect is in that evidence. I told him what I had done - that we were rowing away and we came back again and turned round to pick up the other boats.
11757. You told him nothing about having determined not to go back in the exercise of your discretion? - No, I told him nothing of that.
11758. Why did not you when he asked you whether you took any steps to get the people back, tell him that part of the story; it is the most important part, is it not? - Yes, Sir, an important part.
11759. A thing which must have impressed itself on your memory? - Quite so, Sir.
11760. You have thought about it a good deal since? - Yes.
11761. You have realised that if you had gone back you might have saved a good many people? - Quite so.
11762. (The Commissioner.) And there is this question put to you at the end: "Is there any other incident that you wish to state that would be of interest to the public"? - No, Sir, not that I know of.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

11763. I think you stated to Sir Rufus Isaacs that you had not given your address to Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon? - I stated to you, Sir, that I did not give it to him on the ship.
11764. But you said, did not you, that Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon was to send a telegram to your relatives? - That is as far as I understood from the fireman.
11765. So that Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon had got both the name and address of you and of every other member of the crew? - He must have it if he gave it.
       Mr. Scanlan: That was the paper that was produced by his counsel today.
       Mr. Duke: You are quite mistaken, Mr. Scanlan.
11766. (Mr. Scanlan.) When did you first learn that one of your passengers in this boat was Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon? - About two days after we were rescued.
11767. Do you mean to say you did not know during the time you were in the emergency boat? - Quite so; neither did I know till two days after we were rescued who the gentleman was.
11768. I suppose you knew that the "Titanic" had over 1,300 passengers? - Oh, yes. I do not know exactly the number, of course.
11769. And 892 of a crew - that altogether you had on board over 2,200 people? - I do not know the exact numbers, of course.
11770. Did you realise that you had not lifeboat accommodation for half the people you had on board? - Yes.
11771. You knew that? - Yes.
11772. Whilst you were assisting to lower and fill with passengers the other boats, Nos. 3, 5, and 7, you observed, did you not, each boat got a full complement of passengers? - She had a full complement to lower from the davits.
11773. Was yours the only boat that was lowered from that side without a full number of passengers? - That I could not say.
11774. Had you seen any of the other boats being lowered into the water with plenty of spare accommodation for passengers? - No, Sir; I did not see no more.
11775. Your boat corresponds exactly to the boat on the opposite side - to emergency boat No. 2? - Yes.
11776. Do you know that No. 2 boat took off 23 to 25 passengers, chiefly women. Did you know that? - No, Sir; I did not know that.
11777. At the time the emergency boat No. 1 was being lowered the position of the ship had not become very dangerous, had it? - No, not very dangerous.
11778. It would have been quite a simple matter to have kept No. 1 boat on the davits slung ready for taking on passengers until a search was made throughout the ship for passengers? - Well, yes, we could have done that.
11779. I beg your pardon? - Yes, that could have been done.
11780. Can you explain to my Lord how it is that this order was given for your boat to go away with only five passengers? - I cannot say, Sir.
11781. Was there any person directing operations on the boat deck besides Mr. Murdoch? - Mr. Murdoch and the boatswain.
11782. Who is the boatswain? - Nichols.
11783. Has he been saved? - No, Sir.
11784. Did you see Mr. Ismay? - No, Sir.
11785. On the deck at that time? - No, Sir.
11786. Did you know him? - Yes; I knew him by being on the "Oceanic" with him.
11787. Is it your evidence that there were no passengers, either male or female, on the deck? - I saw none.
11788. Did you see any person at all, passengers or crew? - The crew was there working at the surf boat, the collapsible boat as the gentleman said.
11789. Were not there people crowding aft of the boat - passengers? - What do you mean, "crowding aft."?
11790. Were not there a number of people aft of the emergency boat? - That I could not see from there. Those three boats there were gone.
11791. Knowing that you had not got accommodation for all the passengers you must have known and realised that there were plenty of passengers left behind in the ship, the "Titanic"? - Yes.
11792. Did the crew you had got into No. 1 prove sufficient to enable you to row this No. 1 boat? - Yes.
11793. The sea was calm? - Yes.
11794. And the night was calm? - Yes.
11795. The conditions could not have been more favourable for rescuing people? - No.

Page 264

11796. (The Commissioner.) What seaboard had you in this boat? - That I could not give a satisfactory answer to.
       The Commissioner: But you ought to have known that before making up your mind that there was a danger from swamping?
11797. (Mr. Scanlan.) Is it your evidence that you rowed away in obedience to the order from the officer to a distance of 150 to 200 yards? - No, it was a quarter of a mile. That is the distance I rowed.
11798. The evidence of Hendrickson is that you rowed away to a distance of 150 to 200 yards. Do you contradict that? - Yes; we rowed away to roughly about a quarter of a mile.
11799. If it is stated by Lady Duff-Gordon that you watched the boat go down from a distance of 200 yards, are you going to contradict that? - It was more than that, Sir.
11800. What was the order you had got from Mr. Murdoch? - To row away from the ship and to stand by to be called back.
11801. If you had gone away a quarter of a mile you could not have heard any call to come back? - No, Sir. When we rowed away at first we were not a quarter of a mile away. That was when the ship went down.
11802. Before the ship went down, when you were standing by to obey any order you might get from Mr. Murdoch, or the Captain, what distance was it? - Then we were about 200 yards.
11803. I put it to you that you remained stationary at a distance of 200 yards and watched the "Titanic" go down? - No, Sir, we were going further away all the time she was going down.
11804. And that while you were within 200 yards of the "Titanic" the people were screaming for help in the water, and that the cries were heard by you and everybody else in the boat? - Yes.
11805. 200 yards? - No, Sir, over a quarter of a mile.
11806. There would have been no difficulty whatever in rowing back a quarter of a mile? - Well no.
11807. Were any of your passengers seasick? - That I could not see, Sir.
11808. (The Commissioner.) Did you look? Was Lady Duff-Gordon seasick? - Lady Duff-Gordon I could not see; you could only just discern them. The only conversation that I caught once was Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon trying to cheer Lady Duff-Gordon up. That was the only conversation - some words he spoke to her, and that was nearly at the break of daylight.
11809. (Mr. Scanlan.) You heard no complaint during the night that any of the passengers were seasick? - No, Sir, I heard no complaint whatever.
11810. Do you know that Hendrickson was sitting at the bow of this emergency boat? - He was in the bow.
11811. Was Hendrickson next to Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon - the next seat to him? - That I could not say for certain.
11813. Do you know where Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon was? - I should think from what I saw in the morning that he was about the second seat from forward.
11814. So that Hendrickson would be considerably nearer to Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon than you were? - Oh! Yes, Sir, nearer.
11815. I suppose there was a good deal of conversation in the lifeboat? - If there was any conversation it was unknown to me. I never heard nothing.
11816. I mean in the lifeboat, this emergency boat? - There may have been conversation between themselves.
11817. So that it is possible that Hendrickson may have said, "We should go back and try to rescue these people who are crying"? - Yes. He may have said it, but I never heard it.
11818. And Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon may have said, "It is not possible for us to go back"? - That I cannot say. He may have said it.
11819. When you say that you were surprised that no one asked you to go back, did you mean passengers? - Anybody, Sir.
11820. You expected - ? - Someone to say something.
11821. Some of the passengers? - I cannot say the passengers - anybody.
11822. Did you attribute to cowardice the fact that your passengers did not all ask you to go back? - No, Sir. I never had a thought in my head of cowardice.
11823. Looking back on this whole incident, and considering that you had a boat practically empty, with only five passengers, and accommodation for fifteen or twenty more, was it not cowardice that prevented the passengers and the crew from going back? - No, I cannot see that.
11824. Can you give any other account? Can you account for it in any other way except by the exercise of what you are pleased to call your discretion? - That is right, Sir. That is the only thing I can see.
11825. You admit it was cowardly? - No, I do not admit it was cowardly.
11826. Is not a seaman, when the passengers in his boat are in danger, expected to run risks in order to save life? - Quite so.
       The Commissioner: This is mere argument, Mr. Scanlan.
       Mr. Scanlan: I shall not press it further, my Lord.
       The Commissioner: Have a little mercy on the man.
11827. (Mr. Scanlan.) There is one point about your boat I want to ask you. Did you find this emergency boat properly equipped? - No, Sir; it never had no compass and no lamp in it.
11828. Was it deficient in any other respect? - I think - I will not say for certain - there were no biscuits in the boat.
11829. Did you find that binocular glasses were useful, especially at night on the look-out? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. CLEMENT EDWARDS.

11830. How was this £5 paid to you? - What do you mean, Sir.
       Mr. Edwards: It is a simple question.
11831. (The Commissioner.) It is a very simple question. What shape did you get it in? - Just in a form, Sir - a sheet of paper.
11832. (The Solicitor-General.) A cheque? - No, not a cheque.
11833. (Mr. Clement Edwards.) A £5 note? - No, a sheet of paper.
11834. It was an order? - Yes; an order.
11835. An order upon whom? - That I could not tell you, I have not studied it that much.
11836. Have you still got it? - No, Sir, not here.
11837. Have you got it at home? - Yes, it is at home.
11838. (The Commissioner.) Have not you changed it? - No, Sir. I have not got quite to that yet. I have a shot in the locker left.
11839. (Mr. Clement Edwards.) You are a pretty thrifty sort of man, are you? - Well, yes.
11840. Do you ever pay any money into the bank at all? - What do you mean? Is that a question to put? That is my own private affairs. I do not think that is right. That is not right, Sir.
11841. I see. Have you got a banking account? - It is not right for me to answer that.
11842. Have you paid any money into that banking account recently? - That is not for me to answer.
       The Commissioner: You want his passbook, you know.
11843. (Mr. Clement Edwards.) What have you done with this order? - It is at home, Sir.
11844. That is not paid in yet? - No, Sir; I still have that paper.
11845. What is the order for? - £5.
11846. Do you swear that? - Yes, by Heaven above, or God above, as you say.

Page 265

11847. (The Commissioner.) Five pounds or five dollars? - Five pounds, Sir.
11848. (Mr. Clement Edwards.) Did you get any money from anybody else? - No, Sir, none whatever.
11849. Do you know who the other passengers were? - No, Sir.
11850. Have you seen them since? - Seen them once on the "Carpathia," and that is all.
11851. You did not take the trouble to find out who they were? - No, they were of no interest to me.
11852. Was one of the ladies Mrs. Astor? - No.
11853. You are sure of that? - Yes, positive.
11854. You know Mrs. Astor independently, do you? - I saw her once before on the "Oceanic."
11855. You said that you did not see Mr. Ismay? - No.
11856. Were you about No. 3 boat when she was lowered? - Yes.
11857. Could Mr. Ismay have been giving directions to that boat without you seeing him? - The only man that was giving -
11858. Will you answer my question, please? - What did you say? Say it again.
11859. Could Mr. Ismay have been giving directions for the lowering of No. 3 boat if you were there without you seeing him? - I did not hear anybody giving any orders.
11860. Will you answer my question, please? - I can only say he may have been there or he may not have been there. That is all I can say to that.
       The Commissioner: And it is a very good answer.
11861. (Mr. Clement Edwards.) We have heard something about a photograph. Were you taken in a photograph on the "Carpathia"? - Yes, I was took in several photographs this last month. It's quite nice to know you are so big.
11862. Were you taken in a photograph with the passengers and crew of your boat? - Yes, Sir.
11863. Have you got that photograph? - No, Sir; I have seen nothing of it.
11864. At whose request was it taken? - That I could not say.
11865. Who asked you to go into the picture? - The passengers that was around the "Carpathia" at the time.
11866. The particular passengers on this boat? - No, I did not know none of them.
11867. Did Lady Duff-Gordon ask you? - No, Sir, she never asked. We were all there together.
11868. Did Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon ask you? - No, Sir.
11869. Did you write your name on a lifebelt? - Yes.
11870. At whose request? - At Lady Duff-Gordon's.
11871. When was that done? - It may have been a day or a couple of days before we got into New York.
11872. You told the learned Attorney-General that you thought in your discretion it would be dangerous to go back until everything was over? - No, not everything was over.
11873. That is what you said. - I mean to say my evidence was in that respect till I thought everything was safe for the boat to go back.

Examined by Mr. HOLMES.

11874. Did you realise when your boat No. 1 was lowered into the water that the "Titanic" was sinking? - No, Sir, not at that time.
11875. When did you first realise that? - When we got away from the ship.
11876. How soon after you got away? - About five minutes I suppose.
11877. You told us she had a list to starboard? - Yes, at that time.
11878. Did you actually see that by the deck? - The only way you could tell was by the lowering of the boat.
11879. You only judge she had it because of the way the boat went down? - If she had had a list to port the boat would have hung over her deck.

Examined by Mr. LEWIS.

11880. You really expected an order to return to the ship at some time? - Yes, I expected to go back with my passengers and land them aboard the ship again.
11881. And you knew when the ship sank you could not get an order from the ship? - No.
11882. You were either taking passengers off the ship or rescuing passengers after you were asked to be in readiness? - I do not know what that order was. The order that was given was to stand off and wait orders.
11883. What is the length of the boat you were in? - That I could not say.
11884. If Hendrickson had spoken loudly would you have heard? - I should think so.
11885. You have no reason to doubt Hendrickson's statement? - No reason to doubt it whatever. Had he spoken loud I was bound to hear.
11886. Do you know a fireman named Taylor? - No - I only just knew their names afterwards. I did not know none of them.
11887. You do not know where he was sitting? - No, not properly.
11888. And whether he was sitting alongside Lady Duff-Gordon and heard Hendrickson? - That I cannot say.
11889. If he heard Hendrickson it is possible you would have heard? - I should think so; if he heard him I suppose I ought to have heard him.
11890. If he said that a suggestion was made by someone, you would not doubt his statement, would you? - No. You cannot doubt his statement, because I cannot say whether he said it or whether he did not.
11891. (The Commissioner.) Or whether it is truthful or not? - Or whether it is truthful or not.
11892. (Mr. Lewis.) If he said he was opposed by a lady passenger, you would not doubt that would you? - You cannot doubt a man's word till you find out for certain.
11893. Or if he says a man passenger said it was dangerous? - Then you cannot doubt that.
11894. You would not doubt that? - No.
11895. And the lady may have said she was afraid of the boat being swamped? - She may have said it, yes.
11896. You said you went back to the wreckage after the ship sank? - Yes.
11897. (The Commissioner.) He went back and saw nothing? - Saw nothing.
       The Commissioner: Not to any wreckage.
11898. (Mr. Lewis.) The wreckage was mentioned in the American evidence. You went, at any rate, to the scene of the wreck? - As soon as possible.
11899. How long do you think it took you to get back to what you thought was the spot? - Half an hour or more; three-quarters of an hour nearly.
11900. Was there any conversation of any sort at the time of the sinking of the boat? - I never heard nothing.
11901. Nothing whatever? - No. If they were speaking between themselves, I was not hearing. I never heard nothing.
11902. I understand you to say that Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon was quieting Lady Duff-Gordon? - Yes; once I heard that.
11903. Calming her? - Yes.
11904. Soothing her. Did he speak to her? - Yes, he spoke to the lady.
11905. You heard that? - That was at daylight, at the break of day; that was when the "Carpathia's" lights were in sight.
11906. If I were to suggest to you that immediately after the sinking of the boat, a few minutes afterwards, you gave the order to pull away, and that you did not pull to the scene of the wreckage, would I be speaking an untruth? - Yes, you would.
       The Commissioner: You are not assisting me in the least by these questions.
       Mr. Lewis: Not in the least? I believe, my Lord, you will have evidence -
       The Commissioner: That may be, but I am thinking about the assistance that you are affording to the Court, and in my opinion, at present you are affording the Court none.

Page 266

11907. (Mr. Lewis.) I am very sorry, my Lord, that you should think so. Personally, I think I am. (To the Witness.) You expected the people in that boat to say something? - Yes, you would expect to hear something of some description.
11908. What did you expect them to say? - You expect - The Commissioner: I will not allow such questions to be put - "What did you expect them to say." How can it assist me in any way? Mr. Lewis: Because I want to know - The Commissioner: You may ask him about facts - what he saw, what he did, what he said, what other people did and what other people said, but you must not ask this man about his expectations. Mr. Lewis: I want to know, my Lord, whether he thought that the people in the boat would suggest going back. The Commissioner: He has told us already that he was surprised they did not suggest it.
11909. (Mr. Lewis.) You have heard that all the other boats picked up passengers out of the water? - I heard it in the morning.
11910. Without any danger? - Yes, but how long was it afterwards? The Commissioner: Don't you ask questions or we shall never get through.
11911. (Mr. Lewis.) And are you still of the opinion, after hearing that, that it would have been dangerous to your boat? - Yes.
11912. You do not think you could have saved a few? - Not at that time.

(After a short adjournment.)

Mr. Duke: I made a statement to your Lordship this morning with regard to an interview which was had by some gentleman, whose identity at that moment I was not aware of, with the witness. As I made that statement, and as I now know the facts, I should like, if I may at some time, to tell your Lordship what I would have said then if I had been aware of it when your Lordship mentioned it to me, which will make clear what the position is, and, if need be, I will call the people who were concerned.

The Commissioner: I do not quite understand what it is you wanted to say.

Mr. Duke: It is very little, my Lord; it is this: Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon were at sea; they were on their way from America to this country. Their solicitor, Mr. Tweedie, had no instructions except a cable message to inform the Board of Trade that they desired to attend at any Inquiry which might be held. He complied with those instructions. A member of their family, a connection of theirs, communicated with a firm of solicitors, and that firm of solicitors supposed they would act for Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon, and thought it was the proper thing to try to ascertain, in view of Hendrickson's statement, what the other members of the crew said about this matter. One of those gentlemen saw the witness, and I have now the witness's statement here, which I am quite ready to hand to the Attorney-General. But that firm did not in fact act; and Mr. Tweedie, although he became aware that the interview had taken place, had no sort of connection with it, and Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon had no sort of connection with it at the time it took place. If there is any question which is desired to be raised about it I will deal with it.

The Commissioner: Well, I think it would be better if you hand to the Attorney-General the statement that was taken down by this gentleman.

Mr. Duke: If your Lordship pleases, and if my friend thinks fit to enquire of me anything which will put him in a position to examine or cross-examine, of course I am at his disposal.

Mr. Laing: I have a few questions to ask of the witness, but I will follow my friend Mr. Duke.

Mr. Duke: I understand my friend intends to deal with totally different matters from those that I have to deal with.

The Commissioner: Quite.

Examined by Mr. DUKE.

11913. Just answer me two or three questions. First of all, with regard to the sending off of this boat. So far as you are aware did anybody interfere with Mr. Murdoch's discretion as to the sending off of that boat? - No; I saw nobody interfere.
11914. Did the boat come along in its order to be sent off? Was it sent off when it was reached in its order, along the ship's side? - Yes.
11915. The boats, I suppose, were floated so that they would go astern? - Yes.
11916. And this was the forward boat? - Yes, this was the last boat forward.
11917. And below it was the surf boat, either below or outside? - That was inboard, the surf boat.
11918. The surf boat was inboard? - Yes.
11919. Would she have been swung from the same falls? - Yes.
11920. When she came to be floated? - Yes.
11921. Would that have anything to do with using despatch in getting off this boat or not? - Very likely, to get the falls up again for the other boat.
11922. They would have been wanted for the surf boat if she was wanted? - Yes.
11923. How long were you there during the getting out of that boat, getting her ready and getting her to the sea level and getting her afloat before she was actually afloat? - Do you mean the emergency boat?
11924. The emergency boat? - From the time we were there till she was afloat was about ten minutes.
11925. You think about ten minutes? - Yes.
11926. During the whole of that time was there anybody in communication with Mr. Murdoch, except the members of the crew under his orders? - Nobody except the members that were there that he was giving his orders to.
11927. Were you there for any length of time before that, before this boat was taken in hand? - No, we were working our way down through the line.
11928. Were you under Mr. Murdoch's orders while that was being done? - Yes, under his sole orders.
11929. Did anybody, so far as you are aware, during the whole of that time interfere at all with Mr. Murdoch's exercise of his duties? - No, I saw nobody interfere with him all the time he was in my sight.
11930. Now, a suggestion has been made, I do not know on what authority, that Mr. Ismay interfered in some way with regard to the launching of these boats. Did you see any interference by Mr. Ismay? - Nothing whatever.
11931. You knew Mr. Ismay by sight? - Yes.
11932. Was he there at all while these boats were being launched? - I never saw anything of him.
11933. So far as Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon is concerned, did you see anything of him while the lifeboats were being launched? - No.
11934. Did you see what took place, or how it was that Lady Duff-Gordon was not one of the ladies who were put into one of the lifeboats? - I could not say.
11935. You did not see anything of it? - No.
11936. The first you saw was they presented themselves for this boat? - Yes.
11937. Now, with regard to the boat, you were a seaman? - Yes.

Page 267

11938. Was she the sort of boat which would be adapted for navigating in the Atlantic? - I should not think she was, in any weather. She is there for saving life, being a lifeboat for any accident.
11939. For use in case of accident? - Yes.
11940. How far were you from land at this time? - I could not say; I should think by my own estimation about 1,300 miles from New York.
11941. You say it was dark on board the ship? - It was not very dark on board the ship, it was dark when we were going down the side.
11942. Was it dark, or light in the boat? - It was dark, very dark.
11943. You had no lamp? - No lamp whatever.
11944. Do you know how it was that the oars, and perhaps boat masts, or whatever they were - the tackle that was there - had been stowed in the sides against the thwarts? - They were stowed to the side.
11945. Would they in ordinary circumstances have been cleared out if the boat had been intended to be launched for a number of people? - No, I have always seen them kept in them before.
11946. They are kept there? - Yes.
11947. But did they occupy a good deal of what would have been sitting accommodation in the cross-seats? - Yes.
11948. Now with regard to the distance which you got from the "Titanic," how far away were you according to your judgment when the "Titanic" went down? - About a quarter of a mile; it may have been a little more.
11949. Are you pretty confident as to whether you were a quarter of a mile or not? - Oh yes, I am pretty confident of the distance.
11950. How long would it have taken you to row back? - It would have taken a good twenty-five minutes to half an hour to have got back to that ship, under the conditions, with four oars. There were only four oars there for pulling - four pulling places.
11951. There were four pulling places? - Yes, two each side.
11952. From first to last till the time you had made up your mind, did anybody try in any way to interfere with your judgment? - Nobody whatever.
11953. Now, it is suggested by gentlemen who were not there that you were afraid to go back. What do you say about it? - I was not afraid to go back - not in the least - no fear whatever. The only thing I knew was it was not safe to go back at the time.
11954. Were you clear in your own mind about that? - Yes.
11955. Had Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon, or anybody else in the boat, anything to do with your making up your mind about that? - No, nothing whatever.
11956. Did you take the responsibility for it then? - Yes.
11957. And I understand you take it now? - I take it now.
11958. I daresay it is a good deal easier to talk about cowardice here than it is to make up your mind in a position like that? - That is right. Some of those people that talk like that should have been there.
11959. We will not discuss it, because they might not have got back. Now with regard to the money, when was the first time you heard any suggestion that anybody would get anything from Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon? - About the second day before we got into New York.
11960. Even among yourselves, the men who had been in the boat, as far as you were concerned had you heard from them? - Nothing.
11961. That Sir Cosmo had said something? - Nothing.
11962. You had had your name taken by somebody? - Yes.
11963. Who was it? - By one of the firemen. I found out afterwards that Hendrickson was there.
11964. Hendrickson and another fireman, you think, were there together, and one of them took your name? - Yes, Horswill and myself both came together.
11965. That is the other seaman? - Yes; we had to stay in the boat around the bow till some of the other boats came alongside.
11966. Were you in communication with Hendrickson and the other men who formed the crew of the boat while you were on board the "Carpathia"? - Just once or twice.
11967. Were they there? Were they on board the "Carpathia"? - Yes.
11968. Did they come back in the same ship with you to England? - No.
11969. While they were there on board the "Carpathia," did either Hendrickson or any other man who was there suggest that you did wrong in the decision you came to not to go back at that time? - No.
11970. No one? - No one.
11971. When was the first time you ever heard a suggestion that you had been guilty of cowardice in not going back in that welter of people? - When I read the paper in Liverpool on Saturday.
11972. You had made your deposition in New York while you were there? - Yes.
11973. And you had attended before the Sub-Committee of the Senate? - Yes.
       The Attorney-General: That was earlier; April, I think it was.
       Mr. Duke: I am much obliged. (To the Witness.) You had attended before the Sub-Committee and made a deposition before the British Consul?
       The Attorney-General: Yes, the 2nd May.
11974. (Mr. Duke - To the Witness.) I do not know what the suggestion is about that money, but tell me this, while you were in New York were the newspapers full of scandalous stories about people who had been on board this boat, and whose lives had been saved? - Yes, also scandalous reports about myself.
11975. Was there any truth in them? - No, none whatever.
11976. Was this story about Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon the only story that was set on foot about the people on board the ship? - That is all, Sir, the cowardice and the money. It was the only story that was in the papers.
11977. Was there a suggestion at that time that an American millionaire had bribed the crew to take him away, and that Mr. Ismay was a party to it? - Yes.
       The Commissioner: I do not know that you need go into that.
       Mr. Duke: These suggestions were made in cross-examinations by learned Counsel; they go through the country, and are read by all sorts of people, and there seems to be no remedy.
       Mr. Clement Edwards: I was the Counsel who put the questions with regard to the money. I then had no knowledge whatever of similar statements having been made concerning this man in America.
       Mr. Duke: Perhaps we shall find out why somebody suggested it.
       The Commissioner: I know nothing about these things.
11978. (Mr. Duke - To the Witness.) I will ask you one other question about this matter. Were you aware of any inducement held out by anybody to take any particular person in that boat? - No, none whatever. I simply obeyed my orders.
11979. And was there any inducement to you to do anything which you did while you were in the boat? - No.
11980. What became of the lifeboats when they got to the "Carpathia," were they taken on board? - Some were, and there were one or two set adrift.
11981. Was this boat you were in, the dinghy, set adrift? - No, she was put on board.
11982. She was put on board? - Yes.

Page 268

Examined by Mr. LAING.

11983. While you were on the look-out, up to 10 o'clock, what sort of a night was it? - Pretty clear, Sir, a fine night, rather hazy; if anything a little hazy on the horizon, but nothing to speak of.
11984. Would you describe it as a very clear night? - Yes.
11985. With stars? - Yes.
11986. With regard to what you said about binoculars, would you rather trust your eye for picking up anything than a binocular? - Well, it is all according to what you were picking up.
11987. If you were on the look-out on a fine, clear night would you rather trust to the eye than a binocular to pick up anything? - Yes. You use your own eyes as regards the picking up anything, but you want the glasses then to make certain of that object.
11988. You mean when you have picked up something with your naked eye, you like to examine it with the glasses? - That is right.
11989. I suppose your duty as a look-out man is directly you pick up anything with the naked eye to report it and then examine it with glasses? - No, as a rule you examine it before you report.
11990. Would not you report something before you took time to examine it if you had already picked it up? - It is all according to the weather you are in. You may have a beautiful clear day or night when you see these things a long time before they see them on the bridge. In hazy weather it does not matter, because whatever you see coming through the gloom, you report it at once.
11991. On a clear night do you mean you do not report? - Yes, but you make sure before you report because you see such a long way.
11992. You see such a long way with the naked eye, do you mean? - Yes, you can see a long way with the naked eye.
11993. When are the glasses useful to you? In foggy weather or hazy weather? - In hazy weather, in making the land, and also if you have an order to look out for bergs or derelicts, they are very handy. Also on a clear night if you are going west with stars falling, they are handy to pick up the difference between a star and a light.
11994. As a rule, do I understand you prefer to trust to your naked eye to begin with? - Well, yes, you trust your naked eye.
11995. With regard to Mr. Murdoch, was he loading and lowering all the boats on the starboard side you saw go? - Yes, all the ones I saw go.
11996. Did you hear any order given about a gangway? - No, I never heard any order about a gangway.
11997. You know what I mean by a gangway? - Yes, I know what you mean.
11998. You heard nothing about that? - No.
11999. Did he tell you to lie off a short way? - Yes.
12000. And come back when called on? - Yes.
12001. Did you hear anyone with a megaphone on the "Titanic" after you got down to the sea? - No one whatever.
12002. Is this your first shipwreck? - My first one.

Re-examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

12003. Do you know Mr. Lowe, the fifth officer? - I only knew him personally this trip.
12004. Was he close to the emergency boat No. 1? - I never saw him at all that night.
       The Attorney-General: I have read the statement. I have no objection to my friend putting it in if he thinks it desirable.
       Mr. Duke: I merely produced it for the information of the Board of Trade or the Law Officers.
       The Attorney-General: I have only been very hurriedly through it, but I think I am right in saying that you do not mention in that statement that you had been ordered to pull away, to stand by, and to come back when you were called?
       The Witness: No, in a statement like that you would not give it; you would give it to the proper people.
12005. It is not in it? - No, it is not in it.
12006. Did you hear an order given for the emergency boat to remain within hail of the ship? - No; the only order I heard given is what I have said.
12007. It is suggested that Mr. Lowe, the fifth officer, gave this order three times in a loud and distinct voice. Do you say you did not hear it? - I neither heard it, nor did I see Mr. Lowe. The only officer I saw was Mr. Murdoch.

(The Witness withdrew.)

JAMES TAYLOR, Sworn.

Examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL.

12008. Is your name James Taylor? - Yes.
12009. Were you a fireman on the "Titanic"? - Yes.
12010. Were you one of the people who were in this boat No. 1? - Well, I think that was the number.
12011. The starboard emergency boat? - Yes.
12012. (The Solicitor-General.) I propose to go straight to that, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Was Symons, the man who has just been giving evidence, in charge of that boat? - Yes.
12013. Who was it ordered you into the boat? - An officer.
12014. Could you tell me who he was? - No, I do not know.
12015. You do not know which one, but one of the officers? - Yes.
12016. And when he ordered you in, did you get in? - Yes.
12017. When you got into the boat, were there any passengers in it? - Yes.
12018. Already? - Yes.
12019. What passengers were in it? - I do not know.
12020. Were they ladies or gentlemen? - Well, I did not know when I got into it, but I saw who were in it after we got away.
12021. We know the boat was lowered to the water, and we know there were two ladies in it and three gentlemen passengers? - Yes.
12022. Is that right? - Yes.
12023. Where were you sitting in the boat when it was got down to the water? - Amidships.
12024. Do you know a leading fireman named Hendrickson? - Yes.
12025. He was in this boat, was he not? - Yes.
12026. Where was he sitting? - Behind me.
12027. Do you mean the next thwart behind you? - Yes, forward of the boat.
12028. Near the bows of the boat? - Yes.
12029. Were you pulling an oar? - Yes.
12030. Was there anybody else on the same thwart as you? - Yes, a gentleman passenger.
12031. You would not know at the time, but do you know now who it was? - No.
12032. Do you know now it was Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon? - I understand it is that gentleman now, but I did not know it at the time.
12033. You understand now it was that gentleman who was sitting beside you? - I understand now.
       I think Sir Cosmo is here now.
       Mr. Duke: Yes, he is here. (Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon stood up in Court.)
       The Witness: That is the gentleman who sat alongside of me.

Page 269

12034. You and he were sitting on the same thwart? - Yes.
12035. And, as I understand, Hendrickson was on the thwarts immediately behind your back, on the thwarts next nearest to the bow? - Yes.
12036. Lady Duff-Gordon was in the boat; where was she sitting? - I could not tell you. There were two lady passengers, and I did not know which was Lady Duff-Gordon out of the two, and I do not know now.
12037. Was one of the lady passengers near you? - There was one next to me on the next seat, aft of me.
12038. Nearer the stern of the boat? - Yes.
12039. Where was the other lady sitting? - She was sitting right aft from what I can understand.
12040. But you say you do not know which was which? - No.
12041. Did you hear any order given to this boat No. 1 and to the man in charge as to what he was to do? - He was told by the officer, when we left the ship, to go a distance away from the vessel and stand by for readiness. That was by an officer, I do not know who he was. I do not know what his rating was or who he was. "And mind that the crew of the boat do as you tell them"; they were the officer's words when we left the ship.
12042. The officer gave the order that the boat was to go to a distance. Did he say about how far? Did he mention the distance? - I think it was 100 yards, if I am not mistaken; I think so.
12043. I will just put to you what we have been told already about it. Is this right, that Symons was told to stand off a little way and come back when called? - Yes.
12044. Hendrickson said that. Then what was done in the boat; where did the boat go - how far off? - Well, about that distance.
12045. About 100 yards? - Yes. Then we pulled a little further to save suction.
12046. We will come to that. But first of all you pulled off about 100 yards and then you lay on your oars? - Yes.
12047. How far away were you from the ship, do you think, when the ship went down? - About 150 yards to 200 yards.
12048. Then you had pulled a little further away by that time? - Yes.
12049. Would it be right to say that you were quite a quarter of a mile away? - Well, I do not know.
12050. What do you think? - The same as I say, 150 to 200 yards.
12051. Did you, or did you not, hear any suggestion made that the boat should return to the place where the "Titanic" had sunk? - There was a suggestion of going back.
12052. There was? - But who made it, I do not know.
12053. First of all, there was a suggestion. Do you know whether it was a man or woman who suggested it? - No.
12054. You do not know who suggested it? - No.
12055. Did you hear it suggested? - It was suggested.
12056. Now, when that suggestion was made, just tell us yourself, in your own way, what happened and who said anything? - I do not know who said it.
12057. Just tell us what you do remember. What did you hear? - The suggestion was made, there was a talk in the boat of going back, and there was a lady passenger who talked of the boat being swamped if we went back.
12058. A lady passenger talked of the boat being swamped if you went back? - Yes, and two other gentlemen in the boat replied to the same question, "We shall be swamped if we go back. It would be dangerous to go."
12059. (The Commissioner.) When you say two other gentlemen, you mean two passengers? - Two gentlemen in the boat.
12060. Two of the passengers? - Yes.
       The Commissioner: Who was the other lady, Sir John?
12061. (The Solicitor-General.) That lady was Lady Duff-Gordon's companion or secretary, my Lord. I think her name was Miss Francatelli. (To the Witness.) You did not know the names of either of those two ladies, but can you tell me this? You say one of the ladies said if you went back you would be swamped. Was that the lady who was sitting on the next thwart to you, or was it the lady who was in the stern of the boat that said it? - I do not know which it was now. I heard the remark.
12062. Now the gentleman you now know as Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon was sitting on the same thwart with you? - Yes.
12063. Did he take any part in this conversation? - No.
12064. When the lady, whichever the lady was, said you would be swamped if you went back, was there anything more said by anybody? - No one said anything else.
12065. But you say two of the gentlemen passengers agreed with the lady? - They said it would be very dangerous.
12066. What did you think yourself? - It would be dangerous.
12067. You thought it would be. Now, what order was given or what was done at this time, or just after? - An order was given to row away.
12068. Who gave that order? - The coxswain - to row away on our oars.
12069. "Row away on your oars." That would be Symons said that? - Yes.
12070. How long was that after the suggestion had been made about going back? - Well, I could not say.
12071. Well, did anything happen in the interval? - No.
12072. And did you row away? - On my oar, Sir.
12073. That means row away from where the ship had sunk? - No, it means row away with your oar.
12074. You mean "go on rowing"? - Yes.
12075. In what direction did you row? - I could not tell you.
12076. Of course it would be the coxswain who was steering, but did you or did you not follow the suggestion to return to the place where the ship had sunk? - I was willing with anyone else.
12077. Yes, but what happened to the boat? - Which boat?
12078. The boat you were in? - Nothing.
12079. An order was given to go on rowing? - Yes.
12080. So you moved your boat? - Yes.
12081. And this was after the suggestion that the boat should return? - Yes.
12082. Now, did it return, or did it go further away? - I cannot tell you. It was after the ship had gone.
12083. I think we can probably find it out in this way. When the "Titanic" sank, did you hear the cries of people in the water? - Yes.
12084. Did you hear them clearly? - No.
12085. Loudly? - No.
12086. Could not you hear them clearly? - No.
12087. What do you mean? - Well, it was not a clear sound.
12088. There was no doubt about the cries, was there? - No, no doubt about the cries.
12089. Could everybody in your boat hear them? - Yes.
12090. Were those cries going on when there was the talk in the boat as to whether you should go back? Just think. Were those cries going on when there was talk in the boat as to whether you should go back? - I could not say.
12091. Just think a minute? - No, I cannot remember.
12092. You have told me that the suggestion about going back was just after the "Titanic" sank? - Yes.
12093. Did not you hear the cries directly after the "Titanic" sank? - Yes.
12094. Now try again. Were those cries going on at the time of the talk as to whether you should go back? - I could not say.
12095. Well, what do you think? - Well, I cannot remember.

Page 270

12096. Where did the cries come from? - From some direction, Sir. They seemed to come from everywhere, in my version, from the state I was in when I was in that boat.
12097. I think we understand that. But when the suggestion was made to row back, did not you understand that to mean to row back to where the cries were? - No, we had orders to row away on our oars - not to row back.
12098. No; just listen a moment. I am not asking you about your orders. You have told us there was a suggestion made in your hearing that your boat should row back? - There was a suggestion by someone to go back.
12099. To go back where? - Ah!
12100. What? - Well, what I understand from my own estimation, it was back there, where the wreckage was.
12101. (The Commissioner.) To save life? - Well, I should understand that, Sir.
12102. (The Solicitor-General.) What were you to go back for? - That was all, to save life.
12103. Was that to go back to where the cries were? - I suppose so.
       The Commissioner: It is quite clear.
12104. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) When that happened I want to know did the boat go back to where the cries were, or did the boat go further away? - No, it stopped where it was for a long time.
12105. You said that the order given to you and the others was to go on rowing? - We did go on rowing.
12106. Now did you go on rowing towards the cries or away from the cries? - I could not tell you. I did not know in which direction we were going. I did not know where we were going, north, south, east or west.
12107. I am not asking you about the points of the compass. Just think a minute. You say you could hear the cries? - From everywhere, from my own version.
12108. Is what you tell me that you really do not know whether your boat did go back to the cries and where the boat had sunk or whether it did not? - I know the boat had sunk.
12109. Do you tell me you do not know whether your boat went back to where the "Titanic" had sunk? - No.
12110. You do not know? - No.
12111. Then what was the decision arrived at in your boat. You know you have told us you heard there was talk, a discussion, as to whether you should go back? - Yes.
12112. And you have said that one of the ladies said it was too dangerous and that you would be swamped, and you have said that two of the men passengers - ? - I did not say it was dangerous to the ladies; I did not say the lady said it was dangerous; I said the lady was frightened of being swamped.
12113. That is right, and you said two of the men passengers agreed with her and said so? - Well, they said it was dangerous; they thought we would be swamped.
12114. Did you go back into the danger, or not? - No, Sir.
12115. As far as you know did your boat ever get within reach of any one of the drowning people? - No.
12116. How much room was there in this boat, do you think; how many people could you have taken in? - About 25 to 30.
12117. Do you mean 25 to 30 in addition to those who were in it already? - Yes.
12118. I think it is right to ask you: Since you landed in this country have you been interviewed by somebody who said he came on behalf of Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon? - Yes.
12119. Did you give him a statement, or not? - Yes.
12120. Did he write down what you said? - Yes.
12121. Did you sign it? - Yes. I thought I was signing a receipt for the money I received.
12122. You thought you were signing a receipt for the money you received? - Yes.
12123. Is that money which you received when the gentleman saw you on behalf of Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon - ? - Sir?
12124. Was that receipt for money which you got when the gentleman saw you? - I got no receipt whatever.
12125. Was the receipt you thought you were signing a receipt for money which you got when the gentleman saw you? Is that right? - Well, that is what I understood.
12126. Did he give you any money? - Yes.
12127. What was it? - Seven shillings.
12128. Was that supposed to be for the time you had lost? - For my day's expenses.
12129. Did he come down to see you, or had you gone to see him? - I went up to see him.
12130. (The Commissioner.) Where were you, and where was he? - "The White Star," Trafalgar Chambers.
12131. In London? - No, in Southampton.
12132. You were there, and did he come to you? - He was there before I got there.
12133. (The Solicitor-General.) We do not want there to be any mistake. I may have suggested it to you. Did you know on whose behalf he came? - I asked him.
12134. And what did he tell you? - He told me he was there from London on behalf of Sir Duff-Gordon.
12135. And did you tell him what you have told us here in this Court today? - The same, Sir.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

12136. Was there any mention made, while you were in the small boat, of a present that you and the other members of the crew were to get? - No.
12137. Are you sure? - Quite sure.
12138. When someone said something about going back, was that a member of the crew? - I do not know.
12139. Well, you say that those who objected were passengers. Is that so? - It was a lady.
12140. And two gentlemen? - There were two gentlemen, yes.
12141. They objected. I take it no member of the crew objected to go back? - No.
12142. No member of the crew objected? - No.
12143. And you say that for yourself you were willing to go back? - Yes.
12144. Did you say to anyone that you were willing to go back? - Yes, not in the boat.
12145. When? - Not in the boat, I never said I was willing to go back to anyone in the boat.
12146. When did you say it? - Say what?
12147. That you were willing to go back? - To a gentleman in the White Star office, or in the "White Star," Trafalgar Chambers, Southampton.
12148. Did you have any conversation with the gentleman who was sitting on the same seat with you, about those poor people who were drowning about a couple of hundred yards from you? - No.
12149. Did he express any opinion as to whether or not you should go back? - No.
12150. Not a word? - No.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

12151. Was it immediately the "Titanic" disappeared that the suggestion was made that you should go back? - I do not know.
12152. You do not know whether or not she had gone at the time? - No.
12153. Beyond this suggestion, was there any further discussion in the boat about going back? - No.
12154. Did any person beyond the lady make any observation? - There were a couple of gentlemen said it would be very dangerous, and they were afraid it would swamp us.

Page 271

12155. Is that all the conversation? - Yes.
12156. Although during the whole of this time you could hear these cries? - Yes.
12157. And was it after the lady spoke and the gentleman said it would be dangerous, that you proceeded to row away on your oars? - Yes, that is right.
12158. How long did these cries last? - Well, I could not say.
12159. And during the whole time that you heard them were you rowing on your oars? - No, not all the time.
12160. Who told you to cease rowing? - Our coxswain.
12161. How long did you continue to row on your oars? - Well, from my own estimation - well, I cannot say the time properly.
12162. But there was no further conversation about going back to where the "Titanic" had been? - No.

Examined by Mr. LEWIS.

12163. Was it on Tuesday you saw the agent of Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon? - Yes.
12164. Who sent you to Trafalgar Chambers? - Mr. Blake. Mr. Greenham came, the shipmaster, the superintendent engineer of the White Star Line.
12165. Have you seen anyone else? - Yes, I saw a man the day before in the Chambers, too.
12166. Who was that? - I do not know his name. I did not ask who he was.
12167. Have you seen anyone since? - No, only the man I have just mentioned, the day after.
12168. On the Tuesday? - Yes.
12169. On the day before did they say what they wanted you for? - They wanted me to give a statement.
12170. Did not they say who it was for - who they wanted the statement for? - No.

Examined by Mr. COTTER.

12171. Where were you when the ship struck? - In my bunk, asleep.
12172. What did you do after the ship had struck? - I went up on deck.
12173. Upon the boat deck? - No, the well deck.
12174. What did you do afterwards? - Stood there, and waited to see what we could see and hear.
12175. Did you get an order to go to the boat deck? - Yes.
12176. Who gave that order? - A leading fireman.
12177. When you got to the boat deck, was No. 1 boat swung out ready for launching? - Yes, the boat was swung out; it always is swung out.
12178. Was No. 3 swung out ready for launching? - I do not know.
12179. You do not know? - Not No. 3.
12180. Do you know where No. 3 boat is situated? - No.
12181. Had you a boat at all? - Yes.
12182. What was the number of your boat? - No. 5.
12183. Do not you know No. 3 is situated next to No. 5? - No.
12184. How did you know where No. 5 was? - Because I was told where it was as I was going there.
12185. Did you see any women round No. 5 boat? - Yes.
12186. What was the order when you got to No. 5 boat? - The order was nothing when we got there.
12187. The order was nothing? - Not when we got there.
12188. What did you see? - I saw a lot of ladies in the boat, and a lot of ladies getting in the boat, and children.
12189. Was there any officer there? - Yes.
12190. Did you know the officer? - No.
12191. Have you seen Mr. Lowe, the officer, since the disaster? - I might have seen him, but I do not know him by name. I might know him by sight.
12192. (Mr. Cotter.) Will Mr. Lowe kindly stand up? (Mr. Lowe stood up in Court.) Do you know that gentleman? - Yes.
12193. Did you see him on the night of the disaster on deck? - No, not that I know of.
12194. Why did not you go into your own boat? - Because I was ordered away.
12195. Who ordered you away? - An officer.
12196. Do you know the officer? - No.
12197. Did he order you to go to any other boat? - No, not that same officer.
12198. Did anybody else order you? - An officer ordered me to go and get No. 1 emergency boat ready.
12199. You do not know that officer, I suppose? - No.
12200. How do you know it was an officer at all? - Well, by his clothes.
12201. Can you tell the rank of an officer by the stripes on his arm? - I think this gentleman was in an overcoat. I took him to be an officer by the badge on his cap. There was a white star on there. I took him to be an officer.
12202. When you got to No. 1 boat, were there many women round it? - No.
12203. How long after you went to No. 5 was it that you went to No. 1? - I could not say the time.
12204. You could not say the time? - No.
12205. Can you give us any idea? - No, I cannot.
12206. Were all the other boats out. Just look at that model. Were those other three forward boats out, and gone before No. 1 boat? - Yes.
12207. They had all gone. No. 1 was the last boat at the forward end of the ship? - At the forward end of that ship.
12208. That was the last boat? - On that side.
12209. Which boat went before No. 1 then? - No. 5 went first.
12210. Which one went before No. 1? - An after one.
12211. That was No. 7 boat? - Yes.
12212. Did you see the first of those four boats go? - Yes.
12213. Which boat went first? - My own boat, No. 5.
12214. What went next? - The next one to that, this one (pointing on the model.)
12215. No. 3? Where were you when No. 3 was launched? - Alongside of it.
12216. Do you know Mr. Ismay? - No.
12217. Did you hear any gentleman, not in uniform, but in an ordinary suit, giving orders, or helping the women and children to get into No. 3? - No.
12218. Have you ever taken any part in any boat drill? - No.
12219. Never in your life? - Oh, yes.
12220. Where? - In the Union Castle Company.
12221. Did you ever see a boat's crew consisting of six firemen and one sailor? - No.
12222. So that when six firemen and one sailor got into that, you thought it was a peculiar proceeding? - They were ordered into it.
12223. They were ordered into it? - Yes.
12224. Now, when you got to the water did you hear anything said by any officer from the boat deck through a megaphone? - No.
12225. You heard nothing at all? - No.
12226. When you rowed away, by morning when you sighted the "Carpathia," did you hear any conversation in the boat? - When we rowed for the "Carpathia"?
12227. When you sighted the "Carpathia," did you hear any conversation in the boat? - No.
12228. If Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon had spoken to anyone, would you have heard him? - I expect so, I was sitting alongside of him.
12229. Did you hear him say this: "He would make us a little present for this, and send a wire privately to our homes to let them know we were all right"? - Yes.
12230. You did hear that? - Yes.
12231. So you did hear a conversation? - Yes.
12232. Who did he say that to? - He said that to me.

Page 272

12233. To you? - Yes.
12234. (The Commissioner.) Now tell me again what it was he said to you in the boat, you know? - In the boat?
12235. Yes; not on the "Carpathia," but in the boat. What did he say? - He said to me he would write to our homes and our wives, and let them know that we were safe.
12236. Well, what else? - That was all he said to me. That is all I heard of the conversation.
12237. Did you hear him say anything about giving a present to anyone? - No.
12238. Then you should be careful how you answer, you know.
       The Witness: That is the only present I understood - this message to our homes.
12239. (Mr. Cotter.) Did you hear him make this statement; I will put the question to you again: "He would make us a little present for this, and send a wire privately to our homes to let them know we were all right"? - No, that is not right. He said he would send a wire home; that is all I know; but as for any present I know nothing about it.
12240. Did you hear any other gentleman make a statement? - No.
12241. In the boat? - No.
12242. Did you receive any present when you got on the "Carpathia"? - Yes.
12243. What did you receive? - £5.
       The Commissioner: They each got £5.
12244. (Mr. Cotter - To the Witness.) Was any statement made to you when you got the £5? - No; he only said, "This is a little present from me." That was the only time a present was mentioned that I heard. That was three or four days afterwards.
12245. When you were rowing to the "Carpathia," what sort of a sea was on? - A calm sea.
12246. Very calm? - What I should call calm, yes.
12247. Did the boat rock at all? - Not a great lot.
12248. Did she rock; did she roll? - No.
12249. Was there anybody seasick in the boat? - Yes.
12250. Who was seasick? - Lady Duff-Gordon.
12251. How do you know it was Lady Duff-Gordon; you have told us you do not know her? - I told that gentleman there (pointing.) that I was told afterwards that it was Lady Duff-Gordon.
12252. You were told afterwards it was? - Yes, I told that gentleman there.
12253. Was that the lady who objected to the boat going back? - The lady that spoke of its being swamped.
12254. Was that the lady? - Yes.

Examined by MR. DUKE.

12255. This is Lady Duff-Gordon sitting here. Perhaps you do not know. That is the lady. Is that the one? - I think so.
12256. You could see nobody's faces in the boat, could you? - No, it was quite dark.
12257. You could not see this gentleman (pointing to Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon.) could you? - Not like I can now.
12258. (The Commissioner.) Did he offer you a cigar? - Not me.
       The Commissioner: Did you light your cigar?
       Mr. Duke: He says "not me," my Lord.
12259. (The Commissioner.) Did you smoke? - Did I smoke? Yes.
12260. On the boat? - Yes, in the boat.
12261. And did the other men, the other members of the crew, smoke? - Some of them did.
12262. Where did you get your matches from? - Off of one of the crew.
12263. Did Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon smoke? - I do not know, I cannot remember.
12264. (Mr. Duke.) You were out a great many hours during that night, of course? - Till about a quarter to six, I think it was.
12265. Till about a quarter to six in the morning, and it was an intensely cold night? - Yes.
12266. And during a considerable part of the night were various inmates of the boat lying down in the bottom of the boat to get shelter from the cold? - Yes.
12267. Both crew and passengers; is that so? - I could not say whether it was both.
12268. Various people lying in the bottom of the boat? - No, not various; only just one or two.
12269. Did you see where Lady Duff-Gordon, this lady who is sitting here, was seated while you were alongside Sir Cosmo? - I did not understand it was Lady Duff-Gordon at the time, but I think it was the lady who sat just in front of me on the next thwart in the afterpart of the boat.
12270. Just aft of you? - Yes.
12271. You were looking aft, of course, as you were rowing, and you think she was sitting on the next thwart? - Yes.
12272. Did you have any conversation with her? - No, Sir.
12273. What makes you say she was the lady who spoke? - I am not saying she was the lady who spoke.
12274. You are not? - No, I say I am given to understand from information afterwards that that was the lady.
12275. What I want to know is whether you tell the Court that the lady who was sitting on the thwart next to you was the lady who said something about the boat being swamped? - Yes.
12276. Are you sure of that? - Yes.
12277. Quite sure of that? - Yes.
12278. And that it was not the lady further along? - Yes.
12279. Now, was not that lady, who was on the thwart in front of you as you sat, seasick during most of the time after the men first lay on their oars? - She was seasick a little of the time in the boat.
12280. Was not she seasick at the time the "Titanic" went down? - Yes.
12281. And lying over - ? - On the gunwale of the boat.
12282. Was that the time at which you suggest this conversation took place? - I could not tell you.
12283. You do not know? - No.
12284. Have you a distinct recollection about it at all? - No, I have not.
12285. When did anybody first suggest to you that anybody on board that boat had prevented the boat being taken back towards the place where the "Titanic" was? - I do not know when that suggestion was made.
12286. Has the suggestion been made by somebody? - To me?
12287. Well, has it been made to your knowledge? - It was made as I know of, by my knowledge.
       1. Up to that time had you considered at all what took place in the boat that night?
          The Attorney-General: He does not say the suggestion was made.
          Mr. Duke: He says it was made. He said "it was made by my knowledge."
          The Attorney-General: He did not mean what you mean.
          Mr. Duke: I did not object to my friend cross-examining this witness when he called him, but I am trying to be regular.
          The Attorney-General: I am only suggesting there was a misunderstanding between you.
          Mr. Duke: I am much obliged, Mr. Attorney.
          The Attorney-General: I will clear it up when it comes to my turn, if you will not.
       2. (Mr. Duke - To the Witness.) I understood you to say, but you will tell me if I am right, that at some time or other you understood that somebody was suggesting that the people in the boat had not done their duty. Was that so? - No.
12288. Not at any time? - No.
12289. Now when did the question first arise of whether there had been any conversation in this boat about going back; that is, when did it first arise as far as you are concerned? - My version of it is this. I do not know whether you are talking about the crew, or the full boat. Are you talking about the full contents of the boat, or only just the crew?

Page 273

12290. Well, you tell me in your way what the answer is? - You put it about men refusing to do their duty.
12291. Do not think I am suggesting it for a moment. What I wanted to know was whether you heard that somebody had suggested it? - There was a suggestion in the boat about going back by someone, who, I do not know.
12292. And then there was a reply by someone? - There was a reply by a lady about swamping us.
12293. And you say you think it was the lady who was sitting in the thwart in front of you? - And I heard a gentleman say it would be very dangerous to go back, and the other one replied to him it would be very dangerous to go back, we would get the boat swamped.
12294. Were they sitting in front of you? - Right in front of me.
12295. Do you know there were two passengers, neither of whom was Sir Cosmo, sitting between you and Symons, men passengers? - No; Sir Gordon was alongside of me.
12296. But from somewhere in front of you two passengers said it would be dangerous, and they thought the boat would be swamped? - Yes.
12297. That was not Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon? - No.
12298. I want to ask you about this matter of money. Did you hear a conversation as you were coming towards the "Carpathia" about the men having lost everything they had? - Only their clothes.
12299. Yes; but was somebody saying the men had lost their kit, and it would not be replaced, as you were nearing the "Carpathia"? - Not that I know of.
12300. You did not hear it? - No.
12301. Then it is no use my asking you about it. Was there anything said on the "Carpathia" that the £5 apiece was intended to enable the men who had been sent in the same boat with Sir Cosmo and his wife, to replace their kit? - Not that I know of.
12302. You did not hear that? - No.

Examined by Mr. LAING.

12303. Just one question. When you were ordered into this boat, how long did you stay before you were lowered away? - We stayed a little while, I could not say what time it was, not properly.
12304. Were there any passengers on that deck that you could see when you were lowered away? - Not near that boat.

(The Witness withdrew.)

The Attorney-General: I am going to call another witness who was in the bow of the boat, but Captain Barr is here of the "Caronia." I think the questions to put to him are only two, and I would like to call him to let him go. He wants to get back. I hardly think it is necessary to call him; but I will tell your Lordship what the point is.

The Commissioner: Tell me what it is he is going to say.

The Attorney-General: Your Lordship will remember when I opened the case I told you that from the "Caronia" there was a wireless message sent to the "Titanic" at 9 o'clock in the morning, warning Captain Smith of ice.

The Commissioner: Yes.

The Attorney-General: And there was an acknowledgment by Captain Smith, somewhere about a quarter to ten that morning on April 14th, of the receipt of the Marconigram. I will just read those two, and that is all I need do, I think; and I will give your Lordship the latitude and longitude in which he was. We can work it out afterwards for ourselves.

JAMES CLAYTON BARR, Sworn.

Examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

The Commissioner: Just read those to him.

12305. (The Attorney-General - To the Witness.) You are master of the Cunard steamship "Caronia"? - Yes.
12306. You had left New York on April 10th of this year for Liverpool? - Yes.
12307. On that morning of the 14th of April, that is, on the Sunday morning, do you remember sending this Marconigram to the "Titanic"; "West-bound steamers report bergs, growlers and field ice in 42 N. from 49 to 51 W."? - Yes, I remember sending it.
12308. That is sent, I see from your note, at nine o'clock in the morning. That is ship's time, I suppose? - Yes, ship's time.
12309. And did you receive a reply at 9.44 a.m., your ship's time? - Yes, as per that statement.
12310. The reply is: "Thanks for message and information. Have had variable weather throughout - Smith"? - That is true.
12311. Can you give us the latitude and longitude of your ship when you sent this Marconigram?
       The Commissioner: I thought I had got it.
12312. (The Attorney - General.) No, that is what he says the west-bound steamers had reported to him. (To the Witness.) What I wanted was to get your position. We can work out for ourselves where you were? - I could not give you that position from memory. It is not usual to take the position on sending a message.
12313. But do you know about where you were? - Well, no, I could not even tell you about where I was then. He did not give me his, you know.
12314. (The Commissioner.) Can you give us the New York time? - I could not tell you without referring to the Log Book.
12315. Have you a Log? - I have not the Log here.
       1. (The Attorney - General.) Will you send it to us? - I can do that, certainly.
12316. Will you do that and tell us as nearly as you can; it is only for the purpose of seeing where you were when you sent that Marconigram. Will you send it to us and we will work it out and produce to the Court what your position was? - Yes.
12317. (The Commissioner.) At 9 a.m., it was sent; was that ships time? - Yes.
12318. And 9.44, the answer; was that ships' time? - Yes, my ships' time - the time it was received.
       Mr. Scanlan: I have nothing to ask this witness on the evidence he has given. I am submitting to your Lordship whether I would be in order to examine him on some general matters that have been brought up in this Inquiry as to look-out and lifeboats and manning. I submit the matter for your Lordship.
       The Commissioner: I am not going to shut it out, but I think, as this gentleman is in a hurry to get away, you might forgive him, and let him go.
       Mr. Scanlan: Yes, my Lord.
       The Commissioner: Where was this man in the boat?
       The Attorney-General: He was right in the bow, my Lord; he is the other seaman.
       The Commissioner: How many of the men from this boat have we had? We have had three.
       The Attorney-General: Yes.
       The Commissioner: This is the fourth?

Page 274

(The Witness withdrew.)

ALBERT EDWARD JAMES HORSWILL, Sworn.

Examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

12319. (The Attorney - General.) So far, we have had Hendrickson, Symons, and Taylor. Now you are going to have the other seaman, who was in the bow. (To the Witness.) Are you an able seaman? - Yes.
12320. Were you on board the "Titanic"? - Yes.
12321. (The Attorney - General.) I want to go straight to the point, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Do you remember being ordered into the emergency boat on the starboard side? - Yes.
12322. Who ordered you to get into the boat? - The First Officer, Mr. Murdoch.
12323. Do you know Mr. Lowe? - Yes.
12324. The Fifth Officer? - Yes.
12325. Was he about at the time? - I did not see him.
12326. Then you were ordered into the boat, and did you get in? - Yes.
12327. Were there any passengers in when you got into the boat? - No, nobody at all.
12328. After you had got in, five passengers were in your boat and you were seven crew all told? - Yes.
12329. That is right. Now there was plenty of room in the boat for others? - Yes.
12330. Do you remember what the orders were that were given to the boat when she was lowered? - Yes.
12331. Will you tell me what they were? - To lower the boat and lay off the ship.
12332. And come back when called? - Yes.
12333. Let me put it to you as we have had it. Was the boat told to stand off a little way and come back when called? - That is right.
12334. Did you proceed to row a little way off? - Yes.
12335. Where were you sitting? - In the bow of the boat.
12336. Did you see the "Titanic" go down? - No.
12337. Was your back to it? - No, I never saw it go down at all.
12338. Did you hear cries? - Yes.
12339. And when you heard cries you knew that they were cries from persons who had gone down in the "Titanic"? - Yes, I heard them, but I did not know whether they were from the other boats or from the ship.
12340. You did not know? - No.
12342. But you heard cries which you knew came from people in the water who were screaming for help? - Yes.
12343. Were you rowing? - Yes.
12344. Right in the bow? - Yes.
12345. So all except the coxswain would have their backs to you in the boat? - We were all facing the coxswain; those pulling were facing the coxswain.
12346. Then they would all have their backs to you except the coxswain. Do you remember how far you had rowed before the "Titanic" went down - before you heard the cries? - No, I could not say the exact time.
12347. Nor the exact distance, perhaps? - No.
12348. When you heard the cries did you hear anything said as to whether you were to go back or not? - No, nothing at all said.
12349. Do you mean from first to last nothing was said? - From first to last.
12350. Did you hear anybody suggest that you should go back to the people who were crying for help? - No.
12351. Do you mean that not one of you said anything about it? - No one suggested it at all. I never heard anybody suggest anything.
12352. Did you hear anybody say that if you did you might get swamped? - No, I did not hear anything at all, no suggestion whatever. I never heard any conversation at all.
12353. Did you hear anybody give any reason why you should not go back and pick up the people who were drowning? - No.
12354. Did you hear any conversation at all about it? - No.
12355. Was anything said by anybody? - I could not say.
12356. I only want to understand what you mean. It may be that you do not remember. Is that what you mean? - I do not remember anybody saying anything about it.
12357. You told me just now you did not see the "Titanic" go down? - No.
12358. Were you looking towards the "Titanic," or away from her? - I was looking to the coxswain. I had to obey the orders of the coxswain of the boat, and I did not have time to do anything but pull my oar.
12359. I do not quite understand what you mean. You heard the cries of the people who were in the water? - Yes.
12360. And were you rowing at the time? - Yes.
12361. Do you mean that no notice was taken of the cries by anybody on board? - I could not say; I had to obey the orders of the coxswain of the boat.
12362. I am not asking that; I understand that, of course, you would do what you were told by the man in charge of the boat? - That is right.
12363. I am not asking you about that; I want to know what happened? - We saw a light on the port bow of the ship, and we went to pull towards the light.
       The Commissioner: That is the white light, I understand?
12364. (The Attorney - General.) Yes, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Was anybody sitting on the thwart close to you? - No, I was on the thwart by myself.
12365. As far as you were concerned you were talking to nobody? - No, I had conversation with nobody at all.
12366. And you heard nothing at all, is that right? - That is right.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

12367. It would have been quite a safe thing to have gone back? - Yes.
12368. And taken in some people? - Yes, it would have been.
       The Commissioner: Did you hear that question and answer, Mr. Attorney?
       The Attorney-General: I do not think I did.
       The Commissioner: He was asked whether it would have been quite safe to go to the rescue of these people and he said it would.
12369. (Mr. Scanlan - To the Witness.) Did it not occur to you that the proper thing to do under those circumstances was to row back? - It would have been the proper thing to do, but I had to obey the orders of the coxswain of the boat, so it was no good my suggesting anything at all.
12370. Had the coxswain on your boat said "Oh, we must not go back"? - There was no conversation. I never heard any orders from the coxswain at all.
12371. You must have been greatly touched when you heard those poor creatures screaming for help? - Yes.
12372. Did you suppress your feelings and say not a word to anybody? - Yes, that is right. I hardly knew what I was doing at the time, and I did not suggest anything at all.

Page 275

12373. You had two ladies and three gentlemen in the boat? - That is right, Sir.
12374. Is this your evidence, that they also suppressed their feelings, and said nothing? - That is right. I did not hear them say anything.
12375. Did it not occur to you that it was really an inhuman thing to leave those people to perish when you could have gone to their assistance and rescued some of them? - It was inhuman.
12376. It was an inhuman thing? - Yes.
12377. Did you feel it to be so at the time? - I did feel it, Sir.
12378. Why did not you say something to those passengers? - I had to obey the orders of the coxswain of the boat. I was in the boat just the same as they were.
       The Commissioner: You will not get him away from that, you know.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

12379. You said you saw lights on the port side? - Yes.
12380. When did you see those lights first? - I saw lights when I was clearing away the port emergency boat.
12381. Before you launched your boat? - Yes.
12382. Did you hear any order given to those in your boat about standing by? - Yes, stand by the ship after we had lowered.
12383. Did you hear Mr. Murdoch give that order? - Yes.
12384. You saw those lights before you were lowered? - Yes.
12385. Was there any conversation about the lights, as to what they might be? - No.
12386. Did you get any orders to row towards those lights? - No.
12387. How did you know you rowed towards them? - Because I looked round.
12388. And saw you were rowing in that direction? - Yes.
12389. From the time your boat was lowered did you commence to row towards those lights? - No, we pulled a little away from the ship and then stopped.
12390. How long did you stop? - I should say about a quarter of an hour.
12391. And then did you commence to row towards the lights? - Yes.
12392. Was that before the "Titanic" went down? - Yes, before the "Titanic" went down.
12393. So that when the "Titanic" went down you were actually rowing towards those lights? - Yes.
       And disobeying the orders that were given you?

Examined by Mr. EDWARDS.

12394. How long had this boat been ready to be lowered before it was in fact lowered? - The boat is always supposed to be ready, the emergency boats are.
12395. I will put in this way. How soon was this boat lowered after the last person got into it? - About five minutes after the last person got in.
12396. Do you know who the last person was? - No.
12397. Was it a lady or a gentleman? - I could not say.
12398. Did you see them going in? - Yes, I saw them getting into the boat.
12399. How long had you been in the boat before they got in? - A very few minutes; about five minutes.
12400. Who gave the orders to lower away? - Mr. Murdoch, the First Officer.
12401. How do you know that it was Mr. Murdoch? - We have been together long enough, we ought to know each other.
12402. You say it was Mr. Murdoch? - Yes.
12403. Was he the officer who gave the instructions about standing by? - Yes.
12404. As I understand, you were right up the front end of the boat? - Yes, right in the bow of the boat.
12405. In what position in relation to where you were was Hendrickson? - He was abaft me.
12406. With his back towards you? - Yes, back towards me.
12407. So I suppose it would have been possible for Hendrickson to have said something to somebody still further abaft without your hearing? - That is right, Sir.
12408. Did you see anybody seasick in your boat? - Yes.
12409. Who? - A lady.
12410. Where was she sitting? - The starboard side of the boat.
12411. Was she sitting alone? - I think there was another man pulling an oar alongside of her.
12412. How far away was that from you? - A very short distance, about two or three thwarts.
12413. Did you hear this lady say anything? - No.
12414. Nothing at all? Now, have you had a present? - Yes, I had a present given to me two days after we got on board the "Carpathia."
12415. When did you first hear anything about the present? - I did not know anything about that until they sent for me.
12416. Who sent for you? - Some gentleman.
12417. Who was that gentleman? - Mr. Duff-Gordon, I think.
12418. Has anyone seen you take a statement on behalf of Sir Duff-Gordon? - No.
12419. Nobody at all? - No.

Examined by Mr. HOLMES.

12420. Did you see whether there were any passengers, male or female, left on the deck when your boat was lowered? - I could not see any passengers at all before we got lowered.
12421. There were none there? - There were none there.

Examined by Mr. COTTER.

12422. Just one question. How long was it from the time the ship struck until your boat was lowered? - It is impossible for me to say.
12423. Can you give us no idea at all? - No.
12424. What was the number of your boat? - No. 1.
12425. Where were you when the ship struck? - In my bunk, asleep.
12426. What did you do when you got out of your bunk? - Dressed myself, and the boatswain came and said he did not want all hands on deck. Two or three seconds after he came and ordered us all up on deck and told us to clear away the boats.
12427. How long did it take to clear away the boats? - Ten minutes.
12428. How long did it take to clear the boats? - We cleared away the port side first and then were ordered across to the starboard side.
12429. Did you go straight to No. 1 boat then? - No. I was ordered to the port emergency boat. I was ordered to put the lantern in the boat and a chronometer. I did that and came out again, and I was sent to the starboard boats. Then I was ordered into No. 1 boat.

Page 276

12430. How many of the starboard boats were out when you got to No. 1 boat? - Before we got lowered?
12431. When you got round to No. 1 boat, how many of the starboard boats were swung out then? - About three or four were swung out. No. 1 boat was always swung out and No. 2.
12432. Was No. 3 swung out? - No.
12433. Where was it? - No. 3 boat was not swung out.
12434. Are you sure No. 3 boat was not swung out? - I was not there.
       The Commissioner: Mr. Cotter, you are always disappointing my hopes. You begin by saying, "Just one question," and then you never keep your word.
12435. (Mr. Cotter - To the Witness.) When you were lowered to the water, was there any order given through the megaphone? - No, we had our orders before we started to lower.
12436. You were in the bow? - Yes.
12437. You would be looking towards the coxswain? - Yes.
12438. So that Hendrickson would have his back to you? - That is right.
12439. How far was Sir Duff-Gordon sitting from you? - I forget whether it was the second or the third thwart - the second thwart from me.
12440. And you could not hear any conversation? - No, no conversation at all.

Examined by Mr. LEWIS.

12441. You said you did not see the ship sink? - No.
12442. Did you hear anyone mention that she had sunk? - We heard a bit of an explosion and we thought she had gone then.
12443. "We thought"? - Yes.
12444. Did you say anything about that you thought it had gone down? - We never saw the ship go down. We thought she had gone down when we heard the explosions.
12445. Did you say anything to anyone about the explosions? - No.
12446. And no one said anything to you? - No.
12447. Do not you think it is rather strange that you did not say, "the ship has gone down," or "has it gone down"? - I did not say it, but I thought it myself, from my own feelings. I do not remember much at all about it. I only know that I heard explosions.
       Sir Robert Finlay: I have nothing to ask.
       The Attorney-General: We have other members of the crew here, but I think it would be better to call Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon straight away.
       The Commissioner: If Mr. Duke wants them they can be called.
       The Attorney-General: I have them, and if they are required I will put them in the box.
       Mr. Duke: I may say that if Mr. Attorney finds in any statement anything which needs explaining by Sir Cosmo, it will be put to him, and if not I shall assume they make no statement reflecting upon either Sir Cosmo or Lady Duff-Gordon.

(The Witness withdrew.)

Sir COSMO DUFF-GORDON, Sworn.

Examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

12448. Were you a passenger on board the "Titanic" on this voyage? - Yes.
12449. On the night of the disaster were you asleep at the time of the collision? - Yes.
12450. What woke you? - My wife woke me.
12451. Was that about a quarter to 12? - I think so.
12452. Just after the impact with the iceberg? - Yes.
12453. Did you get up? - Not at first.
12454. Did you hear that there had been a collision with an iceberg? - No. As soon as I got up I went out on the deck, and there saw two or three men, who said we were supposed to have run into an iceberg, but it was all right. I went the other side, and could see nothing.
12455. Was there any escaping steam at the time? - Well, the next time I went up it was dreadful - the noise.
12456. How long after was it you went up again? - I went up to the boat deck afterwards, and the noise there was perfectly indescribable.
12457. Do you mean from blowing off the steam? - Yes, from blowing off the steam.
12458. Did you notice whether the vessel had any list at all? - I did not, but the men I spoke to told me that there was.
12459. A list to starboard? - A list to starboard.
12460. Another passenger, do you mean? - Yes, another passenger; it was Colonel Astor.
12461. Who went down with the vessel? - Yes.
12462. Was she at that time down by the head? - He said so, I did not notice it; I am not accustomed so much.
12463. Did you then go back and tell your wife to dress? - Yes.
12464. Did you remain there while she dressed, or did you go up again? - I went up again later.
12465. Did you see whether anything was being done with the boats? - Yes, I saw men stripping the lifeboat.
12466. Did you go down to your cabin again? - I went down again then and I told her, and I began to dress myself.
12467. When you came up before you were not fully dressed? - No, not at all dressed.
12468. Had you heard at that time what the Captain's orders were? - No.
12469. Did the steward come to the cabin and tell you anything? - The steward came and said, "The Captain's orders are that the ladies are to put on lifebelts."
12470. And where were they to go? - To go up to the boat deck.
12471. Was Miss Francatelli accompanying your wife and you on this voyage? - Yes.
12472. Was she your wife's secretary? - Yes.
12473. Did they come up on the boat deck to you? - Miss Francatelli joined us in the cabin just at that time. We went up to the boat deck together.
12474. To which side of the boat deck did you go? - To starboard.
12475. Did you see lifeboats being lowered? - Yes, when we got up one was being either filled or lowered - the furthest aft of those three - (pointing on the model.) We came out of the gymnasium door.
12476. That is boat No. 7? - Yes, I suppose so.
12477. You mean the third one from the emergency boat in front? - Yes.
12478. Did you see whether there were men or women in that boat? - They were only putting women in.
12479. You saw it being lowered? - I think it was just being filled as we got there, and it was lowered almost immediately.
12480. With women and, I suppose, some crew? - Very few.
12481. Did you see any other lifeboat lowered? - I saw two other lifeboats lowered.
12482. Which were they? - The next two forward.

Page 277

12483. Five and three? - Yes.
12484. Were they filled with women and children? - The first one was No. 3 was partially filled with women, and then filled up with men when they could find no other women.
12485. That is boat No. 3? - Yes.
12486. Did you see how many women and children were in the boat? - No, I did not.
12487. What were your wife and Miss Francatelli doing during this time? - They were standing with me, they had refused to go.
12488. They had refused to go into the boat? - My wife had refused to leave me and go in the boats, and consequently we stood against the deck house while the boats were going.
12489. That means your wife and Miss Francatelli were asked to go into one of the lifeboats? - They were asked two or three times to go.
12490. But, as it meant going without you, you mean your wife would not go? - Exactly.
12491. Were there many people about on this deck at this time? - Yes, quite a lot.
12492. Did anybody attempt to force your wife to one of the lifeboats? - Yes, I think in No. 3 some men got hold of her and tried to pull her away.
12493. And she would not go? - No.
12494. Was the part of the deck where you were standing at this time when you saw the third lifeboat go down, clear or full of passengers? - Do you mean fore or aft?
12495. I mean by the time you saw the third boat lowered away? - When the third boat had been lowered I think everybody had disappeared.
12496. Were they firing rockets at that time? - Yes, they had just begun while they were lowering No. 3 lifeboat.
12497. Was there any conversation between you and your wife as to what you should do? - No, owing to the noise I think; but she said to me: "Ought not we to do something?"
12498. What did you say? - I said: "No, we have got to wait for orders."
12499. Then did you hear any orders given with reference to No. 1 boat.
12500. Yes, an officer - I do not know who he was - ordered -
12501. An officer? - Yes, I think it was the same officer who had been doing the other boats. We had followed them along. He said: "Man the emergency boat," and he said so to a number of, I think, firemen or some of the crew, some eight or ten of them who were standing there. I then spoke to him and I said "May we get into the boat?" and he said "Yes, I wish you would" or "Very glad if you would" or some expression like that. There were no passengers at all near us then. He put the ladies in and helped me in myself and we were joined by two Americans who came running along the deck. I think he then told two other or three other of the firemen that they might just as well get in, and then he put one man - I did not know his name until lately - in charge of the boat, Symons.
12502. Then did you hear an order given by the officer to the men in charge of the boat? - I heard him put the man in charge of the boat.
12503. Did you hear the order that he gave him? - Well; I do not quite think it was that order, no.
12504. What is the order that you heard him give? - My impression was that we were to follow the other boats and to row as fast as we could for the first 200 yards. That was the idea I have always had.
12505. I understand you to say you did not hear this order that that boat was to stand off a little way and come back when called? - It is quite likely I should not have heard it. I had other things to attend to; I mean, I was looking after my wife and one thing and another. It was quite natural.
12506. Where were you sitting in the boat? - I was sitting in No. 2 from the bows.
12507. No. 2 thwart? - Yes.
12508. And where was your wife sitting? - No. 3 on the starboard side.
12509. And Miss Francatelli? - In the stern.
12510. When the boat was lowered, did you think that the "Titanic" was in danger? - I thought it was in a very grave condition, yes.
12511. I do not know whether you can tell us, had she any list at this time? - I did not think it was a very great list, but we got down easily. The boat did not touch the side of the ship at all.
12512. You say you did not think there was any great list; but which side was the list? - In any case it would have been to our side if it was at all.
12513. To the starboard side? - Yes.
12514. But you are not sure there was any? - I was not very much noticing.
12515. The men got into the boat, and you noticed, I suppose, that there was room for more passengers in that boat? - There would have been more room if the oars and masts had been thrown away.
12516. I do not quite understand what you mean by that. You suggest there was not room for more people? - Of course there was room for more people, but we should have had to put away the oars and mast and sail, I think, and some boat hooks, and a lot of things that were lying alongside of us. There was only room for two on each side.
12517. Are you accustomed to boats? - Sufficiently.
12518. No one has suggested hitherto that there was not room? - I do not suggest it. I suggest it wanted rearrangement, otherwise we should have sat in the stern together.
12519. Can you give us any explanation why it was that this boat was lowered away with so few people in it when there were so many people left on the ship, which was in danger? - There were no people visible, I am quite sure of that, when I got into the boat.
12520. (The Commissioner.) But there were many people close at hand? - I do not know; there was no one visible certainly.
12521. (The Attorney - General.) There were many of the crew, were not there, on the ship close at hand at the time? - No, I think they filled up the boat with what crew there was there.
12522. Do you mean that after you and the crew had gone into the boat, there was nobody left but the officer? - The officer then told two more men, I think, to get in. I think he said, "You fellows," or "You boys may as well go," and those two got in, and whatever crew he kept with him lowered us.
12523. You had noticed that other boats had been filled with as many as they could possibly carry? - I presume so; I had not noticed very much; but there were no more to go. I am trying to say there were no more on that particular part, on that side of the deck anyway, there were no more in view.
12524. I want to understand what your view was about this, if I can. Did you think there was nobody left on the ship at this time? - Oh, no, but I certainly thought all the women had got off. I had seen all the women in my part, and I knew in other parts of the ship they were lowering boats. They are divided into four distinct portions for lowering there.
12525. You mean you knew they were lowering on the port side also? - Well, I did not know anything; I never moved except between the door of the gymnasium and the bridge.
12526. When you got into the boat and the men started rowing away from the vessel, as we know they did, how far do you think that your boat had got before the "Titanic" went down? - Well, I have always said 1,000 yards when telling anybody, but it is true I have only one eye and I am, therefore, presumed not to be a judge of distance, but I think it still.
12527. At any rate you are not able to form any accurate estimate of the distance, I understand? - Well, no, it got diminished in size very greatly as we moved away, and we had been rowing a long time.
12528. Did you notice this when they were rowing away? Did they continue rowing without stopping for what you consider a thousand yards' distance? - No, I think they rowed for 200 yards or so, and stopped; and then they rowed on again, I daresay, another 100 or 200 yards, and stopped again, and so on.

Page 278

12529. According to the account we have had, it was certainly somewhere about that time, whatever the distance was, that the "Titanic" went down? - Yes.
12530. Did you hear the cries? - Yes, I heard the explosion first, and I heard, I will not say the cries, but a wail - one confused sound.
12531. We do not want unnecessarily to prolong the discussion of it, but they were the cries of people who were drowning? - Yes.
12532. There is no doubt about that? - Yes, I think so without doubt.
12533. Did it occur to you that with the room in your boat, if you could get to these people you could save some? - It is difficult to say what occurred to me. Again, I was minding my wife, and we were rather in an abnormal condition, you know. There were many things to think about, but of course it quite well occurred to one that people in the water could be saved by a boat, yes.
12534. And that there was room in your boat; that they could have got into your boat and been saved? - Yes, it is possible.
12535. And did you hear a suggestion made that you should go back, that your boat should go back to the place whence the cries came? - No, I did not.
12536. Do you mean that you never heard that at all? - I heard no suggestion of going back.
12537. Was any notice taken of those cries in your boat? - I think the men began to row away again immediately.
12538. Did they get any orders to do that? - That I could not say.
12539. That would seem rather strange, would it not? - No.
12540. (The Commissioner.) To row away from the cries? - To row - I do not know which way they were rowing, but I think they began to row; in my opinion it was to stop the sound.
12541. (The Attorney - General.) I think you said - correct it if you did not mean it - they were rowing away from the "Titanic" and then they rested, and then they rowed away some further distance? - They went on rowing, yes.
12542. And then I understand the "Titanic" went down, and I understand you to say they continued to row away. Do you mean by that they merely went on pulling? - They went on rowing.
12543. You do not know where? - I had been watching the "Titanic," of course, to the last moment, and after that, of course, one did not know where it had been.
12544. You do not mean to suggest they rowed back to the cries? - Oh no, I do not suggest that for a moment.
12545. They continued rowing away from the place where the "Titanic" had gone down, did not they? - I do not know. As soon as the "Titanic" had gone down of course one lost all idea of where she had been.
12546. At any rate, we shall be satisfied with this, that you knew they were not rowing towards the cries? - I did not think about it I must confess, I do not know which way they were rowing.
12547. Did not you think about whether or not your boat would be able to save any of the people who were in the water? - I do not know; it might have been possible, but it would have been very difficult to get back, the distance we were, and in the darkness, to find anything.
12548. What I want to understand is this, you said just now you did not think about it - did you mean that you did not think about whether or not your boat could save some of the people that were in the water? - I was not thinking about it. At that time I was attending to my wife, as I think I said just now. We had had rather a serious evening, you know.
12549. Did you hear one of the ladies say anything about the danger of being swamped if you went back? - No, I did not.
12550. Nothing of that kind? - No, I did not.
12551. Did you hear any discussion at all about being swamped? - No, I did not hear the subject raised; the subject was not raised, I think.
12552. Are we to understand that as far as you were concerned no notice was taken in your boat of these cries that came from the drowning people? - No.
12553. No conversation about it? - No, I think there was no conversation.
12554. No suggestion by you or by anybody else? - No.
12555. No question raised as to whether you ought to return or not? - No.
12556. And, if I follow you correctly, no thought entered into your mind that you ought to go back and try to save some of these people? - I do not think it would have been possible, for one thing.
12557. Would you mind answering. I want to follow your view? - What was the question?
12558. I understood from what you said, and correct it if it is wrong, that no thought entered into your mind at that time that you ought to go back and try to save some of these people? - No, I suppose not.
12559. (The Commissioner.) The last witness told us that in his opinion it would have been quite safe to have gone back. What do you say to that? - I do not know, my Lord, whether it would have been safe. I do not know. I think it would have been hardly possible.
12560. (The Attorney-General.) Why not possible? - I do not know which way we should have gone.
12561. (The Commissioner.) When I say "gone back," I mean go towards where the cries came from. - I do not know about that; I could not speculate.
12562. (The Attorney - General.) These cries continued for some time, did they not? - I said the men began to row very soon after the cries were first heard.
12563. But the cries continued for some time? - Yes, I believe they did.
12564. As the men proceeded to row away did the cries sound fainter? - Oh, you could not hear the sound at all when the men were rowing.
12565. Does that mean that in your boat they were not rowing when you heard the cries? - The moment the "Titanic" sank, of course everything stopped. There was a dead silence.
12566. And then you of course did hear the cries? - Yes, then we did.
12567. You mean you continued to hear the cries until the men started rowing again? - Yes, which was very soon, immediately, almost.
12568. We have heard from two witnesses that a suggestion was made that your boat should go back to try to save some of the people? - Yes.
12569. You have been in Court when at least one of them said it. I am not sure whether you heard Hendrickson? - Yes.
12570. What do you say about that? - I can only say I did not hear any suggestion, that is all I can say.
12571. And you know it has been further said that one of the ladies, identified by the last witness as your wife, was afraid to go back because she thought you would be swamped? - I heard that.
12572. And that, you see, was heard by a witness who was sitting on the same thwart as you were? - Yes.
12573. Did you hear your wife say that? - No.
12574. Or any lady? - No.
12575. Or any person? - No.
12576. Do you mean that it might have happened but that you do not remember anything about it, or do you mean that it did not take place? - In my opinion it did not take place.
12577. Do you mean it is not true what the men are saying? - It comes to that, of course.
12578. That they are wrong in their view? - I think so.
12579. Did you hear either of the other men say that if they did go back it would be dangerous because you would be swamped? - No, I did not.
12580. Nothing of the kind? - I do not think there was any conversation of the sort, or talk about it.
12581. We have heard what they have said, but so far as you are concerned, as I understand your statement, nothing was done at all? - No.
12582. You know now, do you not, that you might have saved a good many if you had gone back? - I do not know that.

Page 279

12583. You know that your boat would have carried a good many more? - Yes, I know that is so, but it is not a lifeboat, you must remember; there are no air-tanks.
12584. I must ask you about the money. Had you made any promise of a present to the men in the boat? - Yes, I did.
12585. Will you tell us about that? - I will. If I may, I will tell you what happened.
12586. Yes? - There was a man sitting next to me, and of course in the dark I could see nothing of him. I never did see him, and I do not know yet who he is. I suppose it would be some time when they rested on their oars, 20 minutes or half an hour after the "Titanic" had sunk, a man said to me, "I suppose you have lost everything" and I said "Of course." He says "But you can get some more," and I said "Yes." "Well," he said, "we have lost all our kit and the company won't give us any more, and what is more our pay stops from tonight. All they will do is to send us back to London." So I said to them: "You fellows need not worry about that; I will give you a fiver each to start a new kit." That is the whole of that £5 note story.
12587. That was in the boat? - In the boat. I said it to one of them and I do not know yet which.
12588. And when you got on the "Carpathia"? - When I got on the "Carpathia" there was a little hitch in getting one of the men up the ladder, and I saw Hendrickson. It was Hendrickson that I saw distinctly, when he brought my coat, which I had thrown in the bottom of the boat. He brought it up after me, and I asked him to get the men's names, and that list, in my belief, is his writing. It is merely a list of the names, and I think it is in Hendrickson's writing.
12589. Did you know either of the other two male passengers? - No, I did not know them, not till the next day.
12590. They were Americans? - Yes.
12591. Did you say anything to the Captain of the "Carpathia" of your intention to give that money to the men? - Yes; I went to see him one afternoon and told him I had promised the crew of my boat a £5 note each, and he said, "It is quite unnecessary." I laughed and said, "I promised it; so I have got to give it them."

(The Witness withdrew.)

(Adjourned to Monday next at 10.30 o'clock.)