Page 215

Wreck Commissioners' Court.

SCOTTISH HALL,

BUCKINGHAM GATE,

Thursday, 16th May, 1912.

PROCEEDINGS

WIITH

THE RIGHT HON. LORD MERSEY,

Wreck Commissioner of the United Kingdom,

WITH

REAR ADMIRAL THE HON. S. A. GOUGH-CALTHORPE, C.V.O., R.N.,

CAPTAIN A. W. CLARKE,

COMMANDER F. C. A. LYON, R.N.R.,

PROFESSOR J. H. BILES, LL.D., D.Sc.,

MR. E. C. CHASTON, R.N.R.

Acting as Assessors.

ON A FORMAL INVESTIGATION

ORDERED BY THE BOARD OF TRADE INTO THE

LOSS OF THE S. S. "TITANIC."

NINTH DAY.

THE RIGHT HON. SIR RUFUS ISAACS, K.C., M.P. (Attorney-General), SIR JOHN SIMON, K.C., M.P. (Solicitor-General), MR. BUTLER ASPINAL, K.C., MR. S. A. T. ROWLATT and MR. RAYMOND ASQUITH (instructed by SIR R. ELLIS CUNLIFFE, Solicitor to the Board of Trade) appeared as Counsel on behalf of the Board of Trade.

THE RIGHT HON. SIR ROBERT FINLAY, K.C., M.P., MR. P. LAING, K.C., MR. MAURICE HILL., K.C., and MR. NORMAN RAEBURN (instructed by Messrs. Hill, Dickinson and Co.), appeared as counsel on behalf of the White Star line.

MR. THOMAS SCANLAN, M.P. (instructed by Mr. Smith, Solicitor), appeared as Counsel on behalf of the National Sailors' and Firemen's Union of Great Britain and Ireland and of the personal representatives of several deceased members of the crew and of survivors who were members of the Union. (Admitted On application.)

MR. B0TTERELL (instructed by Messrs. Botterell and Roche) appeared on behalf of the Chamber of Shipping of the United Kingdom. (Admitted on application.)

MR. THOMAS LEWIS appeared on behalf of the British Seafarers' Union. (Admitted on application.)

MR. L. S. HOLMES (of Messrs. Miller, Taylor and Holmes, of Liverpool) appeared on behalf of the Imperial Merchant Service Guild. (Admitted on application.)

MR. COTTER appeared on behalf of the National Union of Stewards. (Admitted on application.)

MR. HAMAR GREENWOOD, M.P. (instructed by Messrs. Pritchard and Sons), watched proceedings on behalf of the Allan Line Steamship Company.

MR. HAMAR GREENWOOD, M.P. (instructed by Messrs. William A. Crump and Son), watched proceedings for the Canadian Pacific Railway Company.

MR. ROCHE (instructed by Messrs. Charles G. Bradshaw and Waterson) appeared on behalf of the Marine Engineers' Association. (Admitted on application.)

MR. A. CLEMENT EDWARDS. M.P., (instructed by Messrs. Helder, Roberts and Co.), appeared as Counsel on behalf of the Dock, Wharf, Riverside, and General Workers Union of Great Britain and Ireland. (Admitted on application.)

MR. W. D. HARBINSON (instructed by Mr. Farrell) appeared on behalf of the third-class passengers. (Admitted on application.)

Page 216

The Solicitor-General: My Lord, the witness, Mr. Durrant, the Marconi operator, has given all the evidence which I had in mind to ask him, and he is available here if there is anybody else who would wish to ask him questions; I do not know whether there is.
Sir Robert Finlay: I do not think so.
Mr. Clement Edwards: I was going to ask the witness two questions.

JOHN DURRANT, Recalled.

Examined by Mr. CLEMENT EDWARDS.

9591. You said last night that at 5 minutes past 11 you got a general inquiry from the "Californian" and in reply you said the "Titanic" had struck an iceberg and had sunk. Had you been told by anyone that she had sunk, or was it your own conclusion? - Well, it was 11 minutes past 5, not 5 minutes past 11.
      The Commissioner: It was in the morning.
      Mr. Clement Edwards: Quite so, my Lord.
      The Witness: I came to my own conclusions. More than that I had no official notice from the "Titanic" or any one else that she had sunk.
9592. Now from that time forward, I suppose you were close to your instrument for many hours and you could overhear any messages that were sent. Did you hear any message to the effect that the "Titanic" was steaming to Halifax? - No, there was no such message.
9593. Did you hear any message to the effect that all the passengers had been rescued? - No, not until the "Carpathia" had advised that they had rescued 20 boat loads; they gave no number of the passengers rescued.
      The Commissioner: Do you want to ask anything, Mr. Lewis.
      Mr. Lewis: Yes, my Lord.

Examined by Mr. LEWIS.

9594. 9594. After the "Titanic" had sunk, did you hear any message from the "Carpathia" to the "Birma"? - No.
9595. 9595. (The Commissioner.) Have you told us all you heard? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: He has told us all.
      Mr. Lewis: Very well, my Lord.
      Mr. Spratt: Will your Lordship allow me to put one question to this witness in the unavoidable absence of my friend, Mr. Roche?
      The Commissioner: What is the question?
      Mr. Spratt: The question I wish to put is this: Dealing with the statement of this witness that he picked up at 1.27 a message" Engine room flooded" and the words were spelt out, the question I want to put to this witness is whether there is a code word for engine room in the ordinary course of events and whether there is any significance in the words "engine room" being spelt out, as opposed to the code word which might mean the boiler room, the engine space.
9596. (The Commissioner - To the Witness.) Is there any code word for "Engine room"? - No, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: That answers that question.

(The Witness withdrew.)

The Solicitor-General: There is the witness Rule, who gave evidence on the 10th of May, at the end of the day. My friend, the Attorney-General, examined him. He begins at page 148 and he runs to the end of the day, pages 148 to 153. Your Lordship may remember he was a bath-room steward.
The Commissioner: Yes.
The Solicitor-General: Your Lordship will see there that though he gave evidence answering questions by the Attorney-General, the other Counsel here did not have an opportunity of putting questions to him. We broke off because we were going to call a different class of witness the next morning.
The Commissioner: Yes.
The Solicitor-General: I have him here and perhaps it would be as well if he went into the witness-box now.
The Commissioner: Let him go.

SAMUEL RULE, Recalled.

The Commissioner: Does any gentleman want to ask any question of this witness?
Mr. Scanlan: I should like to ask him one or two questions, my Lord.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

9597. In your evidence a few days ago you said that Mr. Ismay was assisting on the starboard side to get people into the boats? - Yes.
9598. You heard an order given as to the lowering of the first boat from the starboard side, No. 1? - Yes.
9599. Was Mr. Ismay present when that order was given? - He was standing by No. 3.
9600. That was quite close to No. 1? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: What do you mean by "quite close to No. 1"? - As far as Mr. Ismay was concerned, it would depend upon where he was standing.
9601. (Mr. Scanlan - To the Witness.) Could you indicate where Mr. Ismay was standing on the deck at the time the order was given to No. 1? - At the second boat. (pointing on the model.)
9602. (The Commissioner.) Do you remember with reference to the second boat where about he was standing, was he at the stern, or at the bow, or at the middle. If you do not remember, say so? - The last I saw of him he was pretty well at the stern, at the after fall.
9603. (Mr. Scanlan.) Will you indicate on the model where he was standing? - Yes (The Witness did so.)
9604. And where were you standing? - I was just by the end of No. 3, between that and No. 5.
9605. (The Commissioner.) You were a boat's length away? - Not quite.
9606. (Mr. Scanlan.) At all events he was nearer to No. 1 at the time it was being lowered than you were? -Yes.
9607. When you heard this order given as to the lowering of No. 1, do you know that it had only 5 passengers? - No, No 1 was in the water at that time.
9608. You did not know how many were in it? - No, No. 1 was in the water at that time.
9609. Can you now remember the officer who was on the boat deck giving orders then? - No.

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9610. But are you sure it was an officer? - Well, I would not swear.
9611. Are you still satisfied that the boat in which you went away was No. 15? - Yes.
9612. You were asked on the last occasion if a previous witness named Cavell was in the crew of that boat with you. Have you seen him since? - No.
      The Solicitor-General: He is here.
      Mr. Scanlan: Would it not be well, my Lord, if this witness had an opportunity of seeing him, as there is confusion?
      The Solicitor-General: We have him back.
      The Commissioner: To identify him.
      Mr. Scanlan: Yes.
      The Commissioner: Let him come in. You can go on with your questions in the meantime.
9613. (Mr. Scanlan - To the Witness.) Did Mr. Ismay give any orders? - No.
9614. He just assisted to help the passengers in? - Yes.
9615. With regard to No. 15 had you a lamp? - No.
9616. I suppose you looked for it? - Yes.
9617. Had you a compass? - Not that I am aware of.
9618. We may take it from you that the crew of No. 15 consisted of seven men? - All in the boat together?
9619. Yes? - There were more than that.
9620. How many seamen were in the boat? - One.
9621. (The Commissioner.) What do you mean by a seaman? Do you mean an A.B.? - I could not swear whether he was an A.B.
      The Commissioner: I am asking Mr. Scanlan. Do you mean A.B., because one of the witnesses said that he regarded one of the men out of the engine room as a seaman, because he said they could very often handle an oar very well.
      Mr. Scanlan: I regard the deckhands, my Lord, as seamen.
      The Commissioner: I wanted to understand in what sense you use the expression.
9622. (Mr. Scanlan - To the Witness.) When you say there was a seaman in the boat with you, do you mean one of the A.B.'s? - He was a deckhand.
9623. He would be either an A.B or an ordinary seaman? - Yes.
9624. Besides this seaman, how many of the ship's hands were in the boat, members of the crew? - That I could not say.
9625. I thought you said, in giving your evidence, that when the boat was lowered from the boat deck down to A deck there were six in her? - Yes.
9626. Six of the crew? - Yes.
9627. And, then, do you know any other member of the crew who got into her except yourself? - No.
9628. So that you would have had seven in her? - Yes.
9629. Could you recognise the members of the crew who were in her? - The only ones I can recognise were those in our department.
9630. From your department? - Yes.
      Mr. Scanlan: I understand Cavell is here now, my Lord.
9631. (The Commissioner.) Very well; now just stand forward. (Cavell came forward in Court.) Now, Rule, look at that gentleman? - Yes, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: Now what is your question, Mr. Scanlan?
9632. (Mr. Scanlan - To the Witness.) Can you recognise Mr. Cavell here as one of the boat's crew who were in No. 15 with you? - Yes.
9633. He was? - Yes.
9634. Are you still satisfied on your recollection of what happened on that night that you took in on A deck 60 men, male passengers? - 60? That I would not swear to.
9635. How many male passengers did you take in? - That I could not say.
9636. I thought you were very emphatic on the last occasion that all told in your boat, No. 15, you had 68 persons? - That was the count in the morning - 65 to 68.
9637. And that you had taken in four women and three children? - Yes, when I was there.
9638. Now if you had seven of a crew, that would leave 61 persons in the boat, and of these seven were women and children - four women and three children. At all events, you had 55 additional passengers? - Yes.
9639. Is it still your opinion that those 55 were all male passengers?
      The Commissioner: To make your arithmetic correct it would be 54.
      The Solicitor-General: Yes, that is right.
      1. (Mr. Scanlan.) Yes, my Lord, 54. I thank your Lordship. (To the Witness.) Were these all male passengers? - No, I made a mistake there.
         The Commissioner: I cannot hear what he says.
9640. (Mr. Scanlan.) He says, "I made a mistake there." (To the Witness.) Will you explain to my Lord what mistake you did make? - I just counted the women I helped into the boat and the children. The others I did not see.
      The Commissioner: What am I to understand now, because up to this time there has been a flat contradiction, as I understand, between this witness and that other man?
      Mr. Scanlan: That is so, my Lord.
9641. (The Commissioner - To the Witness.) Now, then, am I to understand that you think the other man was right? - Yes.
9642. (Mr. Scanlan.) Do you mean that when you said the other day that all the others except the seven taken into that boat were men, that is all wrong? - Yes, I made a mistake.
9643. Were they all women? - Principally, I should say.
9644. Are you able to tell my Lord now how many men and how many women respectively you took in at A deck? - I could not say.
      The Commissioner: Well, Mr. Scanlan, you are only making confusion worse confounded.
      Mr. Scanlan: I think, at all events, it is important to have this discrepancy cleared up.
      The Commissioner: Quite; I quite agree with you.
9645. (Mr. Scanlan.) I do not wish to leave it entirely here. (To the Witness.) Did you count yourself in the morning the total number of persons you had in the boat? - No.
      The Solicitor-General: I am sorry to interrupt, but I think it would be as well if that man Cavell went out of Court now.
      The Commissioner: Where is Mr. Cavell? He had better retire.
      The Solicitor-General: I think he had better go out.

(Cavell left the Court.)

9646. (Mr. Scanlan.) Here is what you said when you last gave evidence, in answer to the Attorney-General. I want you to listen to it. You were asked: "Can you give us any idea of how many of the 68 who went into this boat No. 15 were women and how many were men?" Your answer is: "Four or five women and three children." Then the next question is: "And all the rest men?" and you replied to that, "Yes"? - Yes, that is all the women and children I saw in.
9647. When you stated that all the rest were men, you understood what you were being asked? - I did not see all the men get in.
9648. But you knew that you were being asked as to the number of men, male passengers, who were in the boat? - Yes.
9649. Now, if you have made a mistake, can you explain how you came to the conclusion or can you tell us now how many men were in the boat and how many women? - Well, I took it from what I could see - I was in the bows of the boat - there were most men forward. I could not see the women; the women were in the centre of the boat.
9650. The women were in the centre of the boat? - Yes.
9651. And is it still your evidence that although you did not know the numbers of men and women, the majority of the people in the boat were men? - Yes, as far as I could see.
9652. Is that still your evidence? - Yes.
9653. (The Commissioner.) I do not know what you mean by "As far as I could see." I suppose these people were dressed in all sorts of garments? - Yes.

Page 218

9654. Do you mean you had some difficulty in distinguishing men from women? - You would have at night.
9655. You got to the "Carpathia" at daylight? - Yes, just after the break of day.
9656. It was coming daylight. Had you a difficulty then in distinguishing the men? - Well, no.
9657. (Mr. Scanlan.) Did anyone make a count of the passengers? - Yes.
9658. Who did? - A man called Stewart.
9659. (The Commissioner.) Do you mean the "Carpathia's" steward? - No, on our boat - the man in charge of the boat.
9660. (Mr. Scanlan.) The man called Jack Stewart, and he is a survivor? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

9661. Do you remember the Attorney-General asking you before it was lowered - that is No. 15 boat - to A deck, had she taken in passengers at all? - Yes.
9662. And you answered there were no passengers. Now do you remember being asked whether any passengers were standing on A deck at this time when the boat was lowered, and you said, "Yes, there were some." Then the Attorney-General says, "Women and children? - (A.) There were four or five women and children." And then do you remember this: "Did you get those four women and three children into the boat? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) Were there any more?" and did you say. "No, they sent scouts around and shouted out for any more women and children and waited quite a while, but there were no more women and children to be found?" - Yes.
9663. Is that correct? - That is correct.
9664. This was on A deck? - Yes.
9665. Where did they send the scouts? - Round A deck.
9666. How long did it take them sending those scouts round? - About six or eight minutes.
9667. Did they send them to any other deck than A deck? - I do not know.
9668. You do not know? - No.
9669. There was ample time to send them to other decks? - No, there was not.
9670. Was there any great hurry about the launching of this boat? - The officer, I think, was pretty anxious to get her ready because the ship was taking a list.
9671. Who was the officer who sent the scouts around? - I could not say his name.
9672. And it was after the scouts returned that the boat was filled with men? - Some more men got in.
      The Commissioner: The boat was filled. Whether it was filled with men or not, we do not know.
9673. (Mr. Harbinson - To the Witness.) Well, more men got in? - Perhaps half-a-dozen.
9674. You have told my friend you do not know the exact composition of this crew, the numbers of men and women respectively? - No.
9675. (The Commissioner.) What do you mean by half-a-dozen more men got in. Do you say that after the scouts came back only six men got in? - About that.
9676. Then the boat was already full with the exception of those six men? - Yes.
9677. But they had been calling out for women all the time, had not they? - Yes.
9678. And the women had been getting in, and then they sent for more women, and then six men got in. Is that right? - Yes.
9679. (Mr. Harbinson.) I understood you to say when the boat was lowered to A deck there were only a few women and children standing round. Listen to this: The Attorney-General asks you, "Were third class passengers standing around on A deck at this time at the place where the boat was lowered to? - (A.) Yes, there was some. (Q.) Women and children? - (A.) There were three or four women and children - four women and about three children"? - That is when I arrived there.
9680. On A deck? - Yes.
9681. And when the boat was lowered to A deck it was quite empty? - Bar the crew that entered from the boat deck.
9682. Except the crew? - Yes, six men.
9683. Then I understand that in answer to my Lord those four women and three children got in there? - When I got in there.
      The Commissioner: No; I did not ask him anything about that. I asked him about six men who he says got in after the scouts came back, and apparently they completed the whole boatload.
9684. (Mr. Harbinson.) Perhaps I could make it slightly clearer this way, my Lord. (To the Witness.) There were only four women and three children, when the boat came down, standing on A deck? - I cannot say; I was not on A deck when the boat arrived.
      The Commissioner: If you are going to make it clear do not make a statement yourself, because you were not there, but ask him questions.
      Mr. Harbinson: Yes, my Lord, I will do so.
      The Commissioner: And elicit from him what the facts are.
9685. (Mr. Harbinson - To the Witness.) Is it accurate that when the boat was lowered to A deck you saw four women and three children standing there? - I was not at A deck when the boat arrived at A deck.
9686. You were not? - No.
9687. When you arrived at A deck did you see four women and three children standing there? - Yes.
9688. Were there some men standing there at the same time? - Yes.
9689. Did those women and children get into the boat? - Yes, I helped them in.
      The Commissioner: Do not repeat the thing over and over again. We have heard about the four women and the three children over and over again. There is no doubt that they got into the boat.
9690. (Mr. Harbinson - To the Witness.) Was it at that time that scouts were sent round the deck? - Yes.
9691. While the scouts were away did any men get into the boat? - No.
9692. (The Commissioner.) Then after the scouts came back six men got into the boat? - Yes.
9693. Did any more people get into the boat? - No, my Lord.
9694. Was the boat then launched? - The officer said "lower away"; he was frightened of the falls.
9695. (Mr. Harbinson.) Where did you get the crew and passengers all told of 68? - Off A deck.
9696. You do not know how many got in on A deck? - No. They all got in on A deck bar the crew from the boat deck.
9697. All men? - Where from?
9698. A deck? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. CLEMENT EDWARDS.

9699. How long were you taking passengers in from A deck? - I could not really say; perhaps about 15 minutes.
9700. Were they being passed through windows? - No.
9701. Do you say that A deck under boat 15 is an open deck on the "Titanic"? - Yes.
9702. Is it not the fact that on A deck on the "Titanic" the widows come right up to the edge? - Yes (pointing on the model.)
9703. That is boat 15 (pointing on the model)? - Yes.
9704. Then how do you say if the windows come right on to end these passengers were passed in? - They were passed in from A deck.
9705. But A deck comes right up here? - Yes.

Page 219

9706. That is to say the front of A deck is flush with this? - Yes.
9707. Do not the windows open? - No; it is a closed in deck.
9708. It is a closed in deck? - yes.
9709. That is what I thought. Now if it is a closed in deck, how do you say that the passengers were passed to the boat? - From A deck.
9710. But how if it is closed in - through the windows?
      The Commissioner: The suggestion is, you know, that they could not walk through a sheet of glass. Did they walk through a sheet of glass? - No, Sir.
9711. (Mr. Clement Edwards.) There are windows all along there? - Not on A deck.
      Mr. Laing: No, there are not.
      The Witness: A deck is an open deck.
      The Solicitor-General: You will find windows on the next deck.
9712. (Mr. Clement Edwards.) Then it is wrong information I have? - The windows are forward on A deck.
      Sir Robert Finlay: The model is quite right.
      Mr. Clement Edwards: But this, I understand, is a model of the "Olympic." I will say at once that my instructions are that on the "Titanic" the A deck is a closed deck right to the end, and is different to this model of the "Olympic."
      Sir Robert Finlay: No, this model is made as it was on the "Titanic."
      The Commissioner: Then we may take this as an exact model of the "Titanic"?
      Sir Robert Finlay: Yes.
      The Solicitor-General: That is so.
      Mr. Clement Edwards: With very great respect to Sir Robert Finlay, I trust that will be proved, because my instructions are very positive upon this point as to the character of the construction of A deck.
      The Commissioner: At the proper time I suppose this model will be proved.
      Sir Robert Finlay: Certainly.
9713. (Mr. Clement Edwards - To the Witness.) You say A deck is an open deck? - Yes, aft.
      The Commissioner: Did you hear his additional word "aft"? My recollection is that, although there are windows, they do not extend the whole length.
      Mr. Clement Edwards: That is so, my Lord, on the "Olympic."
      The Commissioner: You come to a point where the windows stop, and, for all I know, this boat may have been at that point.?
9714. (Mr. Clement Edwards.) You say that A deck is an open deck aft? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: Not aft - near aft.
9715. (Mr. Clement Edwards.) What is the position at which A deck ceases to be a closed deck. Go to the model and point out? - The windows finish there; and this is open (pointing on the model).
9716. So that right away under the after-boats it is all open? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. HOLMES.

9717. At the time No. 15 was lowered the "Titanic" was very badly down by the head? - Yes.
9718. So much so that you nearly came down on boat No. 13? - Yes.
9719. And there was, therefore, no time to waste in getting passengers in? - No.
9720. Now as to the order in which the other boats were lowered. Are you quite satisfied that when you came on deck No. 1 was already in the water? - Yes.
9721. And that 5 and 3 were lowered after No. 1? - Yes.
9722. Just think carefully. Was not No. 5 lowered before No. 3, and No. 3 before No. 1? - No, I do not think so.
9723. You do not think so. Are you quite certain about it? - No. 5 was there.
9724. Are you quite sure Nos. 3 and 1 were not there? - No. 3 was on the deck.
9725. Was not No. 1 there also? - No; No. 1 was in the water.
9726. No. 1 was the emergency boat, which is swung right out? - Yes.
9727. Might it not be that because it was not in the same position as the other boats you did not notice it when you came on deck? - No.
9728. You say you do not know whether there were any officers there or not? - Forward?
9729. Yes? - I could not say.
9730. Was there anyone on the bridge then; did you see the captain? - No, I was a long way from the bridge.
9731. Did you hear any orders given at all? - No.
9732. To any of the boats as they were being lowered? - No.
9733. Nor to them in the water? - The only order I heard was to stand off.
9734. Was there any mention of gangways? - No; the only orders I heard was to come back to the ship when called.
9735. Which boats did you see lowered. Did you see Nos. 5 and 3 actually lowered into the water? - No.
9736. Neither of them? - No.

Examined by Mr. COTTER.

9737. How long have you been going to sea? - 40 years.
9738. How long? - About 40 years.
9739. How long have you been in the White Star Company's employment? - 35.
9740. Have you ever taken part in boat drill? - Yes.
9741. In the White Star Line? - Yes.
9742. So you have a thorough grasp of what boat drill really means? - Yes.
9743. Did you see a boat list with your number or the number of your boat on before you left Southampton? - Not before I left Southampton.
9744. When did you see it? - About the day after I left Queenstown.
9745. Where was it posted up? - In the saloon pantry.
9746. What position do you hold on board? - Bath steward on B deck.
9747. So you would have a thorough knowledge of the run of the decks? - Yes.
9748. So you would know whether A deck was covered in or whether it was not? - Yes.
9749. Where were you when the ship struck? - In my bed.
9750. In your bunk? - Yes.
9751. Who got you out? - Myself.
9752. Who called you up? - Myself; the stopping of the engines woke me.
9753. The stopping of the engines woke you up? - Yes.
9754. Did you get up out of bed because somebody told you, or did you go to see for yourself what was the trouble? - I just jumped up myself.
9755. Did anyone come to the glory hole and tell you to get up? - Not then.
9756. When did they come? - I got up and dressed immediately the engines stopped. The engines reversed.
9757. She reversed? - Yes.
9758. When did it stop? - Almost immediately and the electric bells below started ringing, and I dressed and went right up on deck.
9759. The electric bells started ringing; was that attached to the Stone-Lloyd doors, the automatic doors? - Down below in the fidley.
9760. You could hear them ringing? - Yes, from my room.
9761. Did anybody come then and give any orders? - No.

Page 220

9762. Did anybody receive any orders that night? - Not till later on in the night.
9763. Who gave orders then? - I come back to my room and the chief bedroom steward then came down.
9764. How long after she struck did you come back to your room? - Possibly it may be 20 minutes.
9765. When you got back to your room whom did you hear giving orders? - The chief bedroom steward came down.
9766. What is his name? - Penrose.
9767. Did you see the chief steward or second steward, or any officers along B deck? - I saw the second steward on B deck, in the deck pantry, as I passed up the second time, and the purser.
9768. What were they doing? - They were in conversation one with the other.
9769. Did anyone give the stewards' department any orders what to do? - They gave me no orders.
9770. Did you see any orders given by any of these people in position? - No.
9771. Did you see any stewards going forward or aft to the third class? - As I passed out on E deck, Muller, the interpreter, was getting all his people from forward aft, and they were taking their luggage with them on E deck.
9772. He was getting them from forward to aft? - Yes, the afterend of the ship.
9773. Were there any women among them? - No, all men.
9774. They were passing the men along E deck? - All the foreigners.
9775. And they were bringing the baggage along? - Yes, the trunks and valises and all that, with them.
9776. Was there any chaos in the alleyway? - None whatever; you would think they were landing on the tender taking their baggage to New York.
9777. Can you tell me how many bulkheads there are on E deck; that is Scotland Road as you call it? - Yes.
9778. How many? - I could not say.
      The Commissioner: The plans will tell us that far better than this witness can.
      The Witness: There are two on the port side by the engine room, one outside our door, the next one is by the engine room door, and then aft there are two more before you get to the end of the third class.
9779. (Mr. Cotter.) The stewards would know where those bulkhead doors were? - Yes.
9780. Is it not the fact that it would be their duty if they had been taught or shown any drill, to close those doors immediately there was a collision? - Naturally it would be.
9781. No one went to close those doors that night? - No, because when I left the deck the interpreter was forcing people along the watertight doors in the alleyway.
9782. Showing it was taking in water forward, I put it to you the water would come along that deck and would get level with E deck, would it not? - Not that night, she would be down by the head. [Question originally refers to T deck - in place of E deck.]
9783. The water would find its level down E deck? - Yes.
9784. If the bulkhead door was closed then the water could not get along that deck? - There is no bulkhead door forward.
9785. Just think a bit? - No; on the starboard side there is; not on the port side.
9786. On the starboard side there is? - Yes on the starboard side, but not on the port side.
9787. I think you will find there is one on each side; just think it out; are you sure? - I do not remember one on the port because you go right up to the staircase to take you to the different decks.
9788. Where did you go after you left your room the second time? - On the boat deck.
9789. Had you heard any orders then? - No.
9790. You simply went on your own account? - Only what the chief steward said to the bedroom stewards, to see passengers out of their rooms with their lifebelts and lock their doors.
9791. (The Commissioner.) He told us this before.
      The Witness: And everyone else to go to the boat deck.
9792. (Mr. Cotter.) I will take you to your boat. There has been a little discrepancy. You were sitting in the bow, you say? - Yes.
9793. Was there anyone sitting with their back to you? - Yes.
9794. Is that how you made a mistake with regard to the number of women? - Yes.
9795. You found you made a mistake? - The part was full of men where I was sitting. There were two to each oar.
9796. So you thought it was full of men. It was like an optical illusion to you that night. Thank you.

Examined by Mr. LAING.

9797. Was there a steward called Stewart with you in that boat? - Yes.
9798. Was there a man called Lewis with you in that boat? - I do not remember.
9799. Was there a man called Diamond [Dymond], a trimmer? - That I could not say.

Examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL.

9800. I just want to get this clear. As far as you are clear, you have told us several times how many people there were in this boat, No. 15, altogether. You have given their number. Now, what is the number? - Sixty-eight.
9801. You are sure about that? - As far as Stewart told me.
9802. You heard it from Stewart? - Yes.
9803. Now we will take 68. You have told us several times that of the crew there were seven in the boat. Is that right? - The crew altogether, do you mean?
      The Solicitor-General: Yes.
      The Commissioner: There were seven of the "Titanic's" crew in your boat? You have told us so very often. I do not know whether you have some doubt about it now.
9804. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) I do not want to put it on you if you are not certain. You told us how Mr. Murdoch stood on the top deck and told some of you to get into that boat? - There were six got in then.
9805. And you were one of them? - No, I did not get in then.
9806. You got in at A deck? - Yes.
9807. That is one amongst seven? - Yes.
9808. Is that all you know of the crew that were in that boat? - That is all I know, yes.
9809. Very well. This is clear. Now there is one other thing it seems to me you can tell us. You say six got in from the top deck, the boat deck, and the boat was lowered to the next deck, the A deck. Is that right? - Yes.
9810. Now, did all the rest of the people get in from the A deck? - Yes.
9811. And nobody got in below that? - No.
9812. You yourself got in from the A deck? - Yes.
9813. And what were you doing while this boat was level with the A deck? - After she got down to the A deck?
9814. Yes, lowered from the top deck to the A deck. When she was lowered she had six of the crew in her? - Yes.
9815. Now it comes to A deck? - Yes.
9816. What were you doing on A deck during the time the boat No. 15 was level with the A deck? - I was on the boat deck and came along to the A deck.
9817. You mean you followed the boat down? - Yes.

Page 221

9818. And you came down to A deck yourself? - Yes.
9819. And when you got to A deck did you get into the boat at once? - No.
9820. What did you do while the boat was level with A deck? - I assisted the women and children in that I was speaking of.
9821. Where were you standing? - By the rail.
9822. That is what I want to know. You were standing by the rail and you helped them in? - Yes.
9823. Do you mean you remained standing by the rail until you got in? - On the rail, yes.
9824. You did? - Yes.
9825. All the time? - Yes.
9826. And when you got into the boat, by that time was the boat full or not? - Yes.
9827. You mean you got in then, one of the last? - Yes.
      The Solicitor-General: I have got some other witnesses about this boat, my Lord; it is just to see how much he does know. I think it would be better to call my other witnesses about this boat instead of recalling Cavell for the moment.
      The Commissioner: Yes.
9828. (Mr. Cotter.) May I ask one question? It may clear the air. (To the Witness.) Have you suffered in health since this accident? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: Suffered in health?
9829. (Mr. Cotter.) Yes. (To the Witness.) Several nights without sleep? - Yes.
9830. Thinking of this disaster? - Yes; I have been to a doctor.
9831. You agree it has affected your memory a lot? - Yes.
9832. Have you been to a doctor? - Yes.
      Mr. Cotter: I think that will clear the air a little, my Lord.

(The Witness withdrew.)

The Commissioner: I can understand it affecting his memory, but I cannot understand it having the effect of causing him to remember things that did not take place. I quite understand him forgetting things by reason of his illness.
Mr. Cotter: That night, my Lord, might have an influence on a man's brain.
The Commissioner: Perhaps you know more than I do about it, but I should have thought it did not cause him to remember things that did not take place.
Mr. Harry Barber: May I say I am watching the case on behalf of the Stone-Lloyd system of watertight doors. Mr. Cotter, in examining the witness, referred to the watertight doors as the Stone-Lloyd doors. The Stone-Lloyd is not the system.
Mr. Cotter: I said "or automatic doors." The Commissioner: Do not let us get into conversation about these matters.

JOHN EDWARD HART, Sworn.

Examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL.

9833. Is your name Hart or Stewart? - Hart.
9834. Were you a third class steward on the "Titanic"? - Yes.
9835. And at the time when the collision occurred were you off duty and in your bunk? - Yes.
9836. What deck is your room on? - The glory hole below E deck, below the main working alleyway.
9837. Do you mean that it is on E deck, or below E deck? - Below E deck.
9838. Is it a room in which a number of third class stewards are together? - Yes.
9839. I see a room on the plan that is marked "42 third class stewards"; would that be it? - We have two rooms for third class stewards. They are both on the same level, but one is beside the third class dining room.
9840. And the other one? - The other is further along - more amidships.
9841. I see, which was yours? - Just beside the third class dining room.
      The Solicitor-General: Has your Lordship got it?
      The Commissioner: Yes, I have just seen it.
9842. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) It is marked "38 third class stewards," on deck F, I think? - I think it is.
      The Solicitor-General: I think it is the more after one of the two, your Lordship sees.
      The Commissioner: Is it marked, "42 third class stewards"?
      The Solicitor-General: I understand him, my Lord, rather to suggest that it is the one in the afterpart of the same deck, a little further aft. There is another one marked, "38 third class stewards."
      The Commissioner: Yes, I see it.
9843. (The Solicitor-General.) I think that is what he means. (To the Witness.) Close to the bakers? - Yes.
9844. There is a room for six bakers next door? - Yes.
9845. Very well, that is your room. Were you awakened by the collision? - No.
9846. Did somebody else come and wake you up? - Yes, somebody came along and woke me.
9847. You heard there had been an accident? - Yes, they said there had been an accident.
9848. I think at first you did not think it was serious, and did not take much notice of it? - Yes, and went to sleep.
9849. Who was it who came afterwards and gave instructions? - The chief third class steward, Mr. Kieran.
9850. (The Commissioner.) Is he a third class steward? - Yes.
9851. (The Solicitor-General.) What were the orders to pass along? - He passed several orders. To me he said, "Go along to your rooms and get your people about."
9852. Would your rooms be the third class passengers' rooms? - Yes.
9853. Which part of the third class accommodation is it that you were responsible for? - Section K and part of M, the adjoining section, on E deck.
9854. That is part of the after third class accommodation? - Yes.
9855. K and M? - Yes.
      The Solicitor-General: Does your Lordship see on the plan of the E deck there is the letter "K" marked in that alleyway?
      The Commissioner: I see it.
9856. (The Solicitor-General.) And then further aft again M. (To the Witness.) They use those letters K and M, and the other letters of the alphabet to indicate the different watertight compartments? - No.
9857. Do not they lie between two watertight bulkheads? - Yes, there are two watertight bulkheads at the afterpart of the beginning of the third class.
9858. I thought K lay between two, and M between two others, and so on? - Yes, that is quite correct, K lies between two.
9859. (The Commissioner.) And M lies between two? - No, M lies between the afterpart and one bulkhead.
9860. (The Solicitor-General.) We mean the same thing, I think, Mr. Hart. I thought we noticed when we went to see the ship that they used the letters of the alphabet to indicate the different compartments right along? - That is it.
9861. Anyhow, your third class passengers were in the K section and in the M section? - Part of M, yes.

Page 222

9862. Are the third class passengers accommodated in different parts of the ship according as they are single men or married couples, and so on? - Yes.
9863. And what is it you had in your section? - I had part single women and part married.
9864. Married couples, I suppose? - Yes.
9865. How many third class passengers had you in your sections altogether? - Somewhere about 58.
9866. (The Commissioner.) Altogether? - Altogether.
9867. Men and women? - All told.
9868. (The Solicitor-General.) That would be including children? - All told.
9869. And of those 59, how many would be in the married couples' part? - How many married couples, do you mean?
9870. Yes, or put it the other way, you have a certain number of married men with their wives and families and a certain number of single women. Just divide it up? - At the same time we had some married women travelling with their children.
9871. Give me some guide? - I will give you a rough estimate.
9872. Take your 58? - I had about nine married couples with children.
9873. I understand you had no single men? - No, no single men.
9874. That would mean that you had got nine men? - Nine husbands travelling with their wives.
9875. Nine husbands altogether? - Yes.
9876. And the rest would be either ladies travelling alone, or wives or children? - Yes.
9877. (The Commissioner.) Of the 58, nine were men? - Nine were men.
9878. All the others were women or children? - Yes.
9879. (The Solicitor-General.) When you got those instructions just tell us what you did? - The chief third class steward was there, and he said "Get your people roused up and get lifebelts placed upon them; see that they have lifebelts on them." I did so.
9880. I suppose most of those people would have retired for the night? - The majority had retired.
9881. Did you knock them all up? - Yes.
9882. Can you tell us so far as your third class passengers are concerned, did you go to each third class compartment and rouse up your people? - I went to each third class room and roused them.
9883. (The Commissioner.) Were most of them up or were they asleep? - The majority were up. They had been aroused before I got there.
9884. (The Solicitor-General.) They are not single cabins, these third class compartments, are they; not single berths? - They consisted of four berth-rooms and two berth-rooms, and two six berth-rooms.
9885. And what did you do about the lifebelts? - I saw the lifebelts placed on them that were willing to have them put on them.
9886. (The Commissioner.) Some would not put them on? - Some refused to put them on.
9887. (The Solicitor-General.) Did they say why? - Yes, they said they saw no occasion for putting them on; they did not believe the ship was hurt in any way.
9888. Up to this time were any instructions given for your people to go to any other part of the ship? - Not to my knowledge.
9889. Just tell us next what the next instructions were, or the next thing that you did. I will put the question in another way. You have told us that the instructions you got from Mr. Kieran, that you were to rouse up your people and get lifebelts on them. Did he say anything about future instructions that would be given? - He said there would be further instructions; that I was to stand by my own people.
9890. So you were expecting further orders? - Yes.
9891. Now you can tell us what happened. What further orders were given? - He said, "Have you placed lifebelts on those who are willing to have them?" I said, "Yes." After that there was a large number of men coming from the forward part of the ship with their baggage, those that were berthed up forward - single men.
9892. Third class? - Yes. When I saw that my own people had the required number of lifebelts, or those who were willing to have them, I placed the remainder of the lifebelts in one of the alleyways beside which these people would have to pass in case any came through without lifebelts from the forward part of the boat.
9893. This is also on deck E? - Yes.
9894. You told us these third class passengers who were berthed forward came down to the aft? - Yes.
9895. That would be down that alleyway? - Yes, down to the afterpart of the ship.
9896. And whether a third class passenger is berthed forward or berthed aft, is the third class dining-room aft? - The third class dining-room runs from almost amidships to aft.
9897. What I mean is the third class passengers who are berthed forward would know their way aft, because they had been accustomed to go to the dining-room? - Yes.
9898. (The Commissioner.) What deck is the dining-room, is it below E deck; that would be F? -
      The Solicitor-General: It is very clearly shown on that big section up there. Your Lordship sees "Third class dining-room," indicated amidships (pointing on the section).
      The Commissioner: It is right amidships.
      The Solicitor-General: Yes. Your Lordship sees the people who are berthed right forward would be quite accustomed to come back to that extent.
9899. (The Commissioner.) Yes, I see it. (To the Witness.) These men coming from the forward part of the ship would come along the alleyway and then go down a companion ladder and get to the dining saloon? - Yes.
9900. On the deck below? - Yes.
9901. (The Solicitor-General.) Where was it you saw them? - I saw them where I was placed in my part of the ship, where my people were.
9902. That is K and M? - Yes, on the main alleyway.
9903. I think the next thing you will be able to tell us will be the further instructions as to where these people were to go? - I waited about there with my own people trying to show them that the vessel was not hurt to any extent to my own knowledge, and waited for the chief third class steward, or some other officer, or somebody in authority to come down and give further orders. Mr. Kieran came back. He had been to sections S, and Q, and R to see that those people also were provided with lifebelts.
9904. S, and Q, and R are all in the extreme afterpart of the ship, are not they? - That is correct.
9905. S is on deck G, R is on deck F, and Q is on deck E, all in the extreme afterpart of the ship? - Yes.
9906. He had been there to your knowledge? - Yes, he had also his assistant with him, one by name, Sedginary. [Sidney Sedunary]
9907. (The Commissioner.) The chief steward and his assistant, Sedginary [Sedunary], went right aft, did they? - Yes.
9908. To S, R and Q? - Q, S and R.
      The Solicitor-General: Your Lordship happened to say, "The chief steward." Of course, it is the chief third class steward. Your Lordship appreciates that?
      The Commissioner: Yes.
9909. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) Would those two people you have spoken of, Mr. Kieran and Mr. Sedginary, have any responsibility except for third class passengers? - No, I think not; that is their own department of the ship.

Page 223

9910. What about the assistant; you say his assistant was with him? - Yes.
9911. In these compartments, do you mean? - Going around he went round with him.
9912. Did Kieran survive? - No.
9913. He was drowned? - Yes.
9914. And the other man? - The assistant also, he was drowned.
9915. You would have colleagues, other of the third class stewards, of course; do you know whether they were doing what you were doing? - All the men that had rooms were.
9916. All the third class stewards who had got rooms? - The third class stewards do not all have rooms. The third class stewards that had rooms went round to their respective sections and were doing the same as I was doing.
9917. (The Commissioner.) You mean those who had charge of rooms? - Yes.
9918. You mean to say they roused the passengers and tried to get them to put on lifebelts? - Yes.
9919. (The Solicitor-General.) How many third class stewards would there be who would have charge of rooms in the afterend of the ship? - Eight.
9920. As far as you know they were each engaged in doing this? - Yes.
9921. Now just tell us about the next thing? - I was standing by waiting for further instructions. After some little while the word came down, "Pass your women up on the boat deck." This was done.
9922. That means the third class? - Yes, the third class.
9923. Anything about children? - Yes. "Pass the women and children."
9924. "Pass the women and children up to the boat deck"? - Yes, those that were willing to go to the boat deck were shown the way. Some were not willing to go to the boat deck, and stayed behind. Some of them went to the boat deck, and found it rather cold, and saw the boats being lowered away, and thought themselves more secure on the ship, and consequently returned to their cabin.
9925. You say they thought themselves more secure on the ship.? Did you hear any of them say so? - Yes, I heard two or three say they preferred to remain on the ship than be tossed about on the water like a cockle shell.
9926. Can you in any way help us to fix the time, or about the time, when the order was given to pass the third class women and children up to the boat deck? Could you tell us how long it was after you were first roused, or how long it was before the ship went down? - Well, as near as I can. The vessel struck, I believe, at 11.40. That would be 20 minutes to 12. It must have been three parts of an hour before the word was passed down to me to pass the women and children up to the boat deck.
9927. (The Commissioner.) This would be about 12.30? - Yes, my Lord, as near as can be.
9928. (The Solicitor-General.) You say the word was passed down and you heard it? - Yes.
9929. And you had your other colleagues there, other third class stewards. Was the word passed along? - Yes, we were in a bunch. The whole sections are in a bunch. The word was passed right round, "Women and children to the boat deck," at somewhere about 12.30.
9930. When you heard it you would repeat it? - The word was passed along; it was said loud enough for anybody to hear.
9931. In order that your third class women and children should get from those quarters up to the boat deck, they would have to mount a number of decks and go up a number of stairs? - I did not take them that way.
9932. How did you take them? - I took them along to the next deck, the C deck, the first saloon deck.
9933. You are making it very clear. There is a third class stairway going up? - Yes.
9934. Did you take them by the third class stairway up to C deck? - I took them up into the after-well deck, that would be the third class deck up one companion to C deck.
9935. Do you see the plan (pointing on the plan.)? - There is no occasion; I know the ship.
9936. It is to help us, not you. You say there are a series of stairways indicated. It is the third class stairway going up, is it not? - Yes.
9937. The regular way by which third class passengers would go up if they were going to get to -? - The after-well deck.
9938. And is that the way you took them up? - Yes.
9939. As far as the C deck? - Yes.
9940. It is marked on the plan? - It is up one companion.
9941. It is marked on the plan, "Third class Entrance," I think? - I do not know how the plan is marked.
9942. Is it a wide stairway with rails dividing the stairs into sections? - Yes, it is very wide.
9943. So that 20 or 30 people could walk up abreast? - Well, hardly that.
9944. Well, 15 people? - I should imagine six aside could go up easily.
9945. That would bring them up then, as I follow you, to the C deck, to the after-well deck; and how would you get them from there to the boat deck? - I took them along to the first class main companion from there.
9946. (The Commissioner.) You did yourself? - Yes.
9947. (The Solicitor-General.) You led them, you guided them? - I went ahead of them.
9948. That would mean on C deck going forward. Would it mean passing the second class library, and all that? - Yes. The beginning of that deck is the second class, and further along, the saloon.
      The Solicitor-General: Your Lordship has the plan of C deck. I do not know whether that is before you now?
      The Commissioner: Yes.
      The Solicitor-General: Your Lordship sees he comes up to that deck by what is there marked as "Third class Entrance" in the extreme afterpart of the ship?
      The Commissioner: I see that.
      The Solicitor-General: Then he guides his people forward along that deck, past the second class part of the ship, where the second class library is marked.
      The Commissioner: I see that.
9949. (The Solicitor-General.) And goes still forward until he comes to the first class stairs, which is next to what is marked "Barber's shop," a big stairway. (To the Witness.) Then did you guide them up that first class stairway to the boat deck? - Right to the boat deck.
9950. At that time, when you took up your people by that route, was there any barrier that had to be opened, or was it open to pass? - There were barriers that at ordinary times are closed, but they were open.
9951. They were open when you got there? - Yes.
9952. How many people of your lot did you take up the first time you went up this course to the boat deck? - Somewhere about 30.
9953. All women and children of the third class? - Yes, on that occasion, on the first occasion.
9954. And having got them to the boat deck, do you remember whereabouts on the boat deck you took them to? - Yes. I took them to boat No. 8, which was at that time being lowered.
9955. That is the fourth boat on the port side? - Yes.
9956. Practically opposite the second funnel, or a little more forward than the second funnel? - Yes.
9957. Did you leave them there? - I left them there and went back again.
9958. And when you went back what happened then? - But on the way of my getting back other passengers were coming along, third class passengers. They were also being shown the way to the boats. Amongst them were females - the husbands and fathers were with them.
9959. Who was showing them the way? - One by the name of Cox.

Page 224

9960. Is he a steward? - Yes.
9961. One of your colleagues? - One of the third class stewards.
9962. Was Cox saved, do you know? - No.
9963. Did they follow the same route to go to the boat deck? - Well, by the way he was taking them they must have done.
9964. You returned to your people? - I returned to my own part of the ship.
9965. Did you bring up any more? - Yes, about 25. I had some little trouble in getting back owing to the males wanting to get to the boat deck.
9966. The men? - Yes. After the word was passed round for women and children, I was delayed a little time in getting a little band together that were willing to go to the boats.
9967. A band of women and children? - Yes.
9968. How many did you gather? - Somewhere about 25.
9969. Were those all people from the rooms you were responsible for? - No, also from other sections.
9970. Were they all third class passengers? - Yes.
9971. Did you guide them by the same route? - Yes.
9972. Where did you take them to? - I took them to the only boat that was left then, boat No. 15.
9973. This is an important thing. You say the only boat that was left? - That I could see.
9974. Do you mean the only boat that was left on either side of the ship? - I came along the starboard side of the vessel and on that side of the vessel that was the only remaining boat.
9975. That is the aftermost boat on the starboard side? - Yes, the last boat on the starboard side.
9976. That is the boat we have had some evidence about this morning. Can you tell me whether at that time there were any boats on the port side? - I cannot say, I did not go; the last boat I saw on the port side launched was when I took my first lot of passengers to boat No. 8.
9977. At that time when you took your lot of passengers to boat No. 8 on the port side were there any other boats left on the port side? - It is like this. From boat No. 8 I believe there is a big square right amidships. I did not look further.
9978. You mean there is a big empty space? - Yes.
9979. Of course boat No. 8 is one of the forward lot of boats? - Yes.
9980. You would come up by the main companion way, and coming up by the main companion way would come up almost opposite boat No. 8? - Yes.
9981. And so you went straight to it? - Yes.
9982. You really cannot tell us whether at that time the after boats on the port side were still there or not? - I cannot tell you.
9983. And when you came up the second time you say you went to the starboard side? - I came up on the starboard side. It was on the starboard side that I came up. I went across in the first place to the port, because at that time they were lowering away the port boats.
9984. You mean the first time you came on the boat deck? - Yes, and on my return to the deck the second time, I could see that there were no boats being lowered away from the port.
9985. You could? - Yes, from the open space which is right opposite. I then took them to the starboard side. There was on that side one remaining boat, No. 15.
9986. I see that in order to get from the first class companion up which you came to boat No. 15, you would come out on the boat deck, if you look at the model, just in front of the second funnel, and you would have to walk right back to the aftermost boat, which we see there. That is right, is it not? - Yes.
9987. And you could see, of course, that there were no boats left until you got to No. 16 [15]? - On the starboard side there were no boats left except that one.
9988. When you got with these people to No. 15 was there room for them in it? - Yes, they were placed in it.
9989. Now this is on the boat deck? - Yes.
9990. Not on A deck? - No.
9991. Do you mean that these people were put into it from the boat deck? - From the boat deck. The boat was lowered right flush with the rail on the boat deck.
9992. From the davits? - From the davits to the level of the rail to enable the people to get in easier.
9993. I had better tell you why, because it helps us all. We have had other evidence, you see, and it is not very clear from the other evidence where the people got in? - Am I clear?
9994. You are clear. Are you quite clear in your own mind that they got in from the boat deck? - Yes.
9995. (The Commissioner.) 25? - There were more than 25, but I took up 25.
9996. Your 25 got into No. 15 boat from the boat deck? - Yes.
9997. (The Solicitor-General.) I daresay you can tell us a bit further about it. When you got to boat 15 with these 25 people, were there any people in boat No. 15 already? - Yes.
9998. About how many, or who? - Well, I can give you a rough estimate.
9999. Yes, of course? - The last 25 were passed in from the boat deck.
10000. Your 25? - Yes.
10001. (The Commissioner.) Were they mixed, women and children, or were they women? - There were three children with them, my Lord.
10002. Twenty-two women and three children? - The boat was then lowered to A deck. We there took in about five women, three children, and one man. He had a baby in his arms.
10003. Five women, three children, and a man with a baby from A deck? - Yes; the boat was then lowered away.
10004. Into the water? - Yes.
10005. You were in her, as I understand? - Yes.
10006. Did you get in her from the boat deck? - Yes.
10007. At the time when your second contingent got in? - After; yes.
10008. How many people do you think were in boat No. 15 after she got into the water, and when she was saved? - I would not like to vouch for its accuracy, but I can give you an estimate.
10009. What is your estimate? - I should say somewhere about 70 after we left A deck.
10010. Another witness has told us he thinks 68? - Well, it is a rough estimate; it is pretty near it.
10011. Now let us see if you can help us as to how many members of the crew there were in boat No. 15. There is yourself, of course? - Yes.
10012. Can you tell us how many other members of the crew there were in boat No. 15? - I should say about 13 or 14 all told of the crew.
10013. There is a man named Cavell, a little short man, who is a trimmer? - Yes.
10014. Do you know him? - Yes.
10015. He was in the boat? - Yes.
10016. Do you know a bath room steward named Rule? - Yes, I know him.
10017. He was in the boat? - I saw him get out of the boat.
10018. That will prove it. Then a man named Diamond [Dymond] we have heard of; he was a fireman? - Yes.
10019. Was he in the boat? - Yes.
10020. Who was in charge of her? - This Diamond [Dymond] - at least, he had all the say, and so I take it he was in charge.
10021. I suppose so. Then I think there is only one other name I have heard, that is Lewis. Was there a man named Lewis, said to be a third class steward? Do you know about that? - I no doubt know them by sight, but we had nearly 60 third class stewards, and it is rather difficult to know their names.
10022. Then we have heard something about somebody called Jack Stewart. Is that somebody else? - Well, I know the name, but I would not like to vouch for him being in the boat, as I did not see him.

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10023. I want to be sure we do justice to you. You got your second contingent, 20 or 25, into the boat. They got in before you did? - Yes.
10024. Now, were any directions given about your getting into the boat? - Yes, I was ordered to get into the boat.
10025. Please, tell us about it? - After I saw my people in, the officer who had charge of the lowering away of that boat.
10026. That was Mr. Murdoch, was it not? - Yes, Mr. Murdoch. It was rather dark on the deck. He said, "What are you?" I said, "One of the crew. I have just brought these people up." He said, "Go ahead; get into the boat with them."
10027. And that is how you came to get in? - Yes.
10028. Let us take your estimate - 13 or 14 of the crew out of some 70? - Yes.
10029. That will leave us something like 55 others? - Yes, or 57.
10030. You have told us of that 55 or 56, some 25 were your contingent, your women and children that you brought up? - Yes.
10031. That is 25 out of the 55; that leaves about another 30? - Yes.
10032. And you have told us that, besides, there were taken in from the A deck five women, three children, and a man with a baby? - Yes.
10033. That knocks off 10 more? - Yes.
10034. That leaves 15 more people. Now, can you give us any idea whether those 15 remaining people were men, women, or children, or what? - Yes.
10035. Will you tell us? - There were about three male passengers and the rest were women.
10036. (The Commissioner.) Do the three that you talk about include the man who came on board with a baby in his arms? - No.
10037. Then there were four men? - There were four men.
10038. Four men and 13 or 14 of the crew? - Yes.
10039. Then out of the whole boatload of 70 there were about 18 men? - Yes.
10040. (The Solicitor-General.) And it follows that if that is right there would be about 50 women and children? - Yes.
10041. Your people that you were responsible for were third class people? - Yes.
10042. Can you tell us about the people that were taken in from the A deck, the five women and three children and the man with the baby; do you know at all what class they belonged to? - Yes.
10043. What were they? - They were also third class.
10044. And those people who were on the boat before your contingent got into it, what class did they belong to as far as you know? - I should imagine they were either first class or second.
10045. Then it comes to this, that as far as you can tell us, it was either first or second class people who were in that boat before you got there. Then your people got in and some more people got in from A deck, and those people you think were third class people? - Yes.
10046. When you left the third class part of the ship the second time, the last time, were there any more third class passengers down there? - Yes, there were some that would not come to the deck.
10047. They would not come? - They would not leave their apartments.
10048. Of course by that time you at any rate had realised that this was a very serious accident? - Yes, but they would not be convinced.
10049. Did you do your best to convince them? - Everybody did their best.
10050. Did you hear other people trying to persuade them? - Yes.
10051. On this second journey of yours, the last journey, did you see other stewards or not engaged in getting people? - Yes, I met several on the deck directing them the way to the boat deck. There was one man at the foot of the companion leading from the sleeping accommodation to the after-well deck; there was one man at the end of the companion leading from the well deck to the E deck, and there were others along the saloon and second cabin deck showing them the way to the boat deck. So that there was no difficulty for anybody who wanted to get to the boats to find their way there.
10052. There is a third class interpreter, is there not? - Yes.
10053. Did you see him about? - Yes.
10054. Some of your third class passengers are foreigners? - Yes.
10055. What was he doing? - He was trying to keep some of the foreigners quiet.
10056. We have been told that there is an emergency door that can be opened and will let people from the third class into the alleyway, so that they could use the second class companion? - Yes.
10057. You did not go by that route, I know? - No.
10058. Did you see whether or not that door was open? - Yes, I could see the door was open.
10059. Could you see whether it was being used as a means of getting from the third to the second? - The people that were coming from the forward part of the ship were making right for the after-well deck of the third class, and one was following in the others' train.
10060. And would they pass through that door? - No, they would have to pass that door but not through it.
10061. What I wanted you to tell me was, whether that door which you say was open in order that people could get through, was used at all? - I cannot tell you that; I saw nobody use it.
10062. When this boat No. 15 left the boat deck with your 25 women and children in it and then you following in as Mr. Murdoch told you, were there any other women and children on the boat deck there? - Yes, there were some first-cabin passengers.
10063. Women? - Women with their husbands, I take it.
10064. This was the last boat to leave, at any rate, on the starboard side? - Yes.
10065. Were there men there? - Yes.
10066. A number of them? - A number of them.
10067. What was the discipline? What was the order then? - Absolute quietness.
10068. On the boat deck? - Yes.
10069. And when this last boat No. 15 got to the A deck and took in these five women and three children and the man, were there any other people on the A deck? - Yes, there were some men.
10070. Men? - Yes.
10071. Do you mean that there were only men left on the A deck? - Yes.
10072. When the boat got to the A deck did you hear any orders given or any cry raised to see whether there were women and children? - Yes, there had been repeated cries before that boat was lowered, for the women and children.
10073. And were they looked for when it reached the A deck? - Well, there were stewards all round the ship. I take it that there were.
10074. I understand you to say that so far as you know there were no other women and children on the A deck? - No. I saw none.
10075. As a matter of fact, was there any room in your boat when it left A deck, or was it full? - Had there been any more women or children I take it they would have made room.
       The Commissioner: There were some women.
       The Solicitor-General: Not on the A deck.
       The Commissioner: No, on the boat deck.
       The Solicitor-General: His point is that those on the boat deck would not go.
       The Witness: Had there been any more I have no doubt a place would have been found for them, even if they had to lie on others.
10076. Lord Mersey has just pointed out that you told us, on the boat deck where the boat left there were some women and their husbands. How was it they did not get into the boats? - Because the cry was for the women and children, and the boat at that time was practically full of women and children, and these women would not leave their husbands.

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10077. That is what I wanted, that was the impression you got, was it? - Yes.
10078. Did you hear any of them say so on the boat deck? - Yes.
10079. You did? - Yes.
10080. You have told us that you were one of a number of some 60 third class stewards? - Yes.
10081. Can you tell me how many third class stewards were saved? - Yes, I believe 11 or 12.
10082. Out of 60? - Yes.
10083. And you have told me that you had about 55 or 60 people to look after in the third class cabins that were your duty? - Yes.
10084. Can you tell me of those how many were saved? - I would not vouch for those that got away in other boats outside of the one that I was in myself.
10085. Do you know how many of your own lot of people you were able to save? - I would not like to say "able to save," but I saw in the same boat as myself those that I took to the boat - in the boat I got away in, No. 15.
10086. And the others? - They were not all mine.
10087. (The Commissioner.) They did not all come out of your section of the afterpart; some belonged to other stewards? - Yes, other sections.
10088. (The Solicitor-General.) I thought you might have been able to see them afterwards on the "Carpathia"? - Yes, I saw a lot of them.
10089. I thought that you could tell us probably how many people that were under your charge were saved? - I see what you mean. I should like to give you some idea. I saw about 20.
10090. Whom you recognise as being in the cabins you had? - Whom I recognised as being in my rooms.
10091. (The Commissioner.) That is 20 out of 58? - Yes.
10092. (The Solicitor-General.) The others came from other sections. I am told I may have made a mistake, and we ought to get it right. It is the first class companion up which you came. I said it was the one near the barber's shop. Is that right or not? - To tell you the truth, I did not know where the barber's shop was.
10093. Is it the main companion? - The main companion.
10094. The big one? - Yes.
       The Solicitor-General: That identifies it. I see it is close to the purser's office.
       The Commissioner: The companion forward of the boiler casing?
       The Solicitor-General: Yes, my Lord, that is my meaning; it is the big one.
       The Commissioner: And it would bring him up opposite No. 8 boat?
10095. (The Solicitor-General.) That is it. And, putting it another way, it would bring him up between the first and second funnels of the ship. (To the Witness.) That is the one, Mr. Hart, is it not? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

10096. At first, I take it, you were trying to assure the passengers under your charge that they were in safety? - Yes.
10097. When you realised that the position was very serious, what did you say to those people? - I told the people to lose no time in getting to the boat deck.
10098. Did you tell them the ship was sinking? - No, I did not know the ship was sinking.
10099. Even amongst the 49 [58] women and children for whom you were responsible, did some of those go back to their quarters? - Yes.
10100. And refused to go? - Yes.
10101. When those people refused to go, did you again go back to them and tell them that those in charge knew that the ship was in a very dangerous condition? - Yes; they were informed the second time I went back.
10102. You made it perfectly clear to them? - Everything was clear.
10103. At the time you were leaving in No. 15 boat, were there rockets being sent up? - Yes; rockets had been fired some time previous to that.
10104. You saw that yourself? - I saw the rockets fired; yes.
10105. Have you had boat drill during your experience as a steward? - Yes.
10106. On a number of ships? - Yes.
10107. You handled an oar yourself, did you in No. 15? - Yes.
10108. And you are quite accustomed to the handling of an oar? - I believe so.
10109. Have you had practice, some training, in handling lifeboats? - Well, I have had the usual boat drill on board ship, but previous to that I have had some exercise at rowing a boat.
10110. Is it the usual practice in ships you have been on to have boat drill? - Yes.
10111. What companies have you been with? - The American Line.
10112. And what else? - Only that.
10113. How often do they have boat drill there? - As a rule, one each way, out and home.
10114. Do you call that a boat drill or a boat muster? - Fire and boat muster.
10115. Do the stewards and the firemen as well as the A.B.'s and other deckhands take part in that boat muster? - Yes. They have to attend this boat muster, failing which, they are logged for non-attendance - fined.
10116. You had not a boat muster on the "Titanic"? - No.

Examined by Mr. ROCHE.

10117. You have told us that when you got the order to muster the women and children it was about half-past 12, you think? - Somewhere about that.
10118. Now I want you to give us your best estimate of the time when you left the ship - when the boat was lowered from the ship? - When boat No. 15 was lowered?
10119. Yes; it was the last boat, was it not? - Yes.
10120. What is your idea about the time then? - I should say about a quarter after one.
10121. You had been going between half-past 12 and a quarter-past one two or three times backwards and forwards from the deck to your quarters at K that you had charge of? - Yes.
10122. To do that you passed "Engine Room Casing"? - I could not tell you anything about the engine room casing.
10123. You pass along E deck, do you not? - No, I did not go along E deck.
10124. What deck were you on? - I was on E deck, but I went right aft.
10125. You never went as far as the engine room? - No.
10126. Was the electric light going all the time? - Yes.
10127. But what the engines were doing you do not know? - No; the light was burning brightly.
10128. But what the main engines were doing, you did not know? - I cannot vouch for what they were doing.
10129. Did you ever see any of the engineers on the boat deck? - No; I would not know them, perhaps, if I saw them.
10130. You would not know them at all? - No.
10131. How many officers did you see on the boat deck? You saw Mr. Murdoch? - I saw Mr. Murdoch on two occasions, the only two occasions on which I went to the boat deck.
10132. You never were on any deck below No. E deck at that time? - Yes, the third class dining room is below E deck; our own quarters are below it.
10133. The watertight bulkheads are there and extend up to E deck, I understand? - Yes.

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10134. They extend up as high as E deck. When you passed along to go to the third class dining saloon, was the watertight bulkhead in the way there, open or shut? - Open.
10135. It is F deck you are talking about? - It is the deck below E deck.
10136. It is F you are speaking of? - Yes; that is where the dining room is situated, and where I was sleeping.
       Mr. Roche: When did you go there that night?
       The Commissioner: What is it you are putting to him?
       Mr. Roche: I am putting to him whether he was on a deck below E deck.
       The Commissioner: Yes, and he says he was.
10137. (Mr. Roche.) When was that? You slept there. Your own berth was there? - Yes.
10138. You were there in your berth at the time of the collision? - Yes.
10139. You went up from there to E deck? - Yes.
10140. Pretty soon? - Yes, pretty soon, when I realised the ship's condition.
10141. When you went along to get up you passed the position where the watertight bulkheads were? - Yes.
10142. Were they open or shut? - Open.
10143. Did you go down on to that deck again at any time? - No.
10144. You cannot tell us at all whether those watertight bulkheads were open or shut? - No, I cannot tell you.
10145. How long after the collision was it that you went up? Five minutes, ten minutes, or only a few minutes? - Well, after the collision, on being aroused first by a man coming from forward, a steward, he said there had been an accident, and I closed my eyes and went to sleep again; I did not believe it.
10146. How long for, do you suppose? - Oh, I should imagine somewhere about 15 or 20 minutes.
10147. And when you left 15 or 20 minutes or longer than that, after the contact with the berg, the watertight bulkheads were open? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

10148. Did I rightly understand you to say that very shortly after the impact Kieran told you to go down to your people and rouse them up? - Yes.
10149. Did I rightly understand you also to say that you went round the whole of the two sections allotted to you? - Yes.
10150. Did you go to each of these cabins and arouse the occupants of each compartment? - Yes, those that were not already aroused.
10151. Those that were not already up or had not gone to bed. Now, I should like to know what are the means employed to prevent the third class passengers during the voyage from straying into the first and second class decks and quarters of the ship. First, are there collapsible gates? - Yes, gates that can be removed. Dividing the third class deck there is a companion; dividing the second class deck and the first class deck there is a barrier.
10152. Are those kept fastened during the course of a voyage - the barrier and the companion? - No.
10153. Are they open? - Well, the barrier that lifts over and the gate that fixes in, you can just take it out with your hand; it is never locked.
10154. Do I understand you to say that those gates are not locked at any time and the barrier is not fastened? - Not to my knowledge.
10155. So that at any time a third class passenger, by pushing the gate or by raising the barrier, can go to the second class deck or to the first class deck. Is that right? - That is correct. That is, of course, if there is nobody there on watch. There usually is a quartermaster standing by there or a seaman.
10156. Have you ever seen those gates locked? - No, I was not long enough on the ship to see them locked.
10157. I mean, any other ship. What ship were you on before you came on to this ship? - I have been in the whole four of the American Line boats.
10158. On any of the previous boats have you seen those barriers or gates locked to prevent the third class passengers straying on to the first or second class decks? - You see, the ships are built differently. The American Line boats are built entirely differently from the "Titanic."
10159. I want to make it quite clear. Is it the usual practice on trans-Atlantic passenger steamers to keep the gates locked and the barriers fixed so that they cannot be opened by third class passengers? - I do not know of it.
10160. Have you seen it? - I have not seen it.
10161. How many days had you been on the "Titanic" before the accident took place? What day did you join? - The ship left on the 10th, on the Wednesday; I joined the ship on the Friday before the Wednesday.
10162. You had been on board a number of days then, and during the time that you had been on board had you looked whether or not those gates were locked or the barriers fixed? - No.
10163. You had not looked? - No.
10164. Do I rightly understand you to say that you do not know whether they were locked or not? Is that the effect of your evidence? - No; I fail to understand you.
10165. You did not look whether the gates were locked or the barrier closed from the time you went on to the "Titanic" until the time of the accident. Is that so? - I do not see how they could be locked. I do not think so at all.
10166. Did you look to see whether the gates were locked or the barriers permanently fixed down? - Prior to the accident?
10167. Yes? - No.
10168. Therefore you do not know whether they were or were not? - Previous to the accident I cannot answer.
10169. Therefore at the time of the collision you do not know? - No. I say previous to the accident.
       Mr. Harbinson: I quite follow you.
10170. (The Commissioner.) They were all down, as I understand, when you were bringing the passengers away? - Yes, my Lord.
10171. All three were opened? - Yes, my Lord.
10172. (Mr. Harbinson.) Did you see anybody open these gates or raise these barriers? - No, I did not see anybody open them; but I had to pass through them, and I saw them open.
       The Solicitor-General: Not "opened" but "open."
10173. (Mr. Harbinson.) You saw them open? - Yes.
10174. You do not know who opened them? - No.
10175. You saw them open? - Yes.
10176. That was when you were taking up the first batch of third class passengers? - Yes.
10177. Do I gather rightly from you that it was a considerable time after the third class steward had told you to rouse up your people that you went about reassuring these people and telling them that the vessel was not hurt? - No; right from the very first we were trying to convince the people that she was not hurt.
10178. Did I understand you rightly when you said that "A large number of men were coming from forrard [forward], from the front part of the ship; I went about among my people trying to show them that the vessel was not hurt"? - Trying to "assure" them - not to "show" them.
10179. I accept your correction - "trying to assure them that the vessel was not hurt" - is that what you said? - That is so.
10180. Why did you on your own authority, after you had been told by the first class steward -? - By who?
10181. By your chief third class steward to go down and rouse these people - Why did you upon your own authority go round and tell them that the vessel was not hurt? - It was not on my own authority at all.

Page 228

10182. Who told you to do that? - The third class steward told me to get my people about as quietly as possible.
10183. Why did he tell you to get them up? - I cannot answer why he did. I take it, on account of the collision. He must have had word that there had been an accident.
10184. And, knowing from him that there must have been an accident, and that he considered the accident was of such a character that these people should be roused, you went round among them, and tried to assure them that the vessel was not hurt? - In the first place.
10185. Why did you do that? - Because it was my instructions to.
       The Commissioner: Why? - To keep them quiet; it is quite obvious.
10186. (Mr. Harbinson.) I put it to you that it was as a result of these assurances of yours that the people refused to go up on deck? - You put it to me as such?
10187. I put it to you that as a result of these assurances given to the people they refused to leave their berths? - I do not take it as such.
10188. Was it so? - It was not so. If you will pay a little attention you will find that some people were taken to the boat deck.
10189. Please do not be impertinent? - I do not wish to be impertinent.
10190. I suggest to you that it was as a result of these assurances given by you that they were declining to leave their berths? - You take it as such.
10191. I ask you, is that so? - I do not know.
10192. You do not know? - I do not think so.
10193. How many women refused to leave their berths? - Several.
10194. Could you give us any estimate? - I might if I think.
       The Commissioner: His estimate in such circumstances is, to my mind, of no value at all.
10195. (Mr. Harbinson.) Were there half-a-dozen out of the 58? - I take it there was.
10196. You do not know? - I could not vouch for the number.
10197. Was it a small number compared with the number who came up with you? - Oh, yes.
10198. A very small number? - Yes.
10199. So that I am right in assuming that all except a small number responded to your warnings? - That I can account for myself in my own part of the ship.
10200. That it was only a small number who refused to leave? - It was only a small number who refused to leave.
10201. You have told us, I think, that there were sixty third class stewards? - Yes.
10202. How many of those sixty were in the afterpart of the ship? - None.
10203. Can you tell us how many were in the after, and how many were in the forward part? - No.
10204. You have no means of telling? - I could not tell you.
10205. Could you give us any estimate of the number of women and children who were in the afterpart of the ship - third class men, women and children? - No.
10206. You cannot? - No.
10207. Who will be able to tell me that? - No doubt the White Star Line can tell you. The single men were all berthed in the fore part of the ship.
10208. You can give us no estimate of the numbers of the third class passengers who were in the after portion? - No.
10209. And therefore you cannot tell me how many stewards were allotted to look after the third class passengers? - In the afterpart of the ship, I can.
10210. That is what I am asking you? - Eight.
10211. Eight stewards to look after all the third class passengers in that portion? - That is for the sleeping accommodation.
10212. It is a considerable distance, is it not, from the aft part of the ship to the boat deck? - Yes.
10213. You have told us that you saw a number of stewards placed at various portions to direct the third class passengers how they were to go? - Yes.
10214. About how many stewards were so placed? - I passed about five or six on the starboard side.
10215. Who else besides you, then, were bringing the people from their berths - rousing them and bringing them up to the boat deck? How many others? - Almost eight. A portion of the third class stewards were room stewards, of whom I am the only survivor.
10216. I understood that there were only eight third class stewards in the aft portion altogether? - To look after them.
10217. Who were stationed at various places to direct the third class passengers the way they were to go? - Not of that eight.
10218. There were five? - Five others.
10219. What class stewards were they? - I could not tell you. Stewards were placed all round the ship.
10220. Do you know who placed them there? - I cannot tell you.
10221. Do you know the stewards by sight who were placed to direct the third class passengers? - No.
10222. But you say they were not third class stewards? - They were not third class stewards.
10223. Did you see the emergency door open? - I saw it open - The swing door to the second class you mean?
10224. Yes? - Yes.
10225. Do you know at what time it was opened? - Yes, I can tell you. It was open at half-past 12.
10226. Would it be right if anyone said that a number of sailors were keeping back the third class passengers from reaching the boat deck? - Would it be right to do so?
10227. Would it be right if anyone said so? - I do not say that it would be right.
10228. I asked you would it be right if anyone said so? - I would not like to say it would be right.
10229. (The Commissioner.) Would it be true? - I should not think so.
       Mr. Harbinson: It is not what you think. Did you see any sailors keeping back the third class passengers from reaching the boat deck?
10230. (The Commissioner.) Did you see anyone keeping the third class passengers back, so as to prevent them getting to the boat deck? - No, my Lord.
10231. (Mr. Harbinson.) You told us about a rush of men from the front part of the ship coming aft? - Yes.
10232. They were coming towards the third class quarters? - Yes.
10233. They were third class passengers? - They were.
10234. Why do you think they were coming aft? - Because I saw them coming aft.
10235. I quite realise that you saw them. But what was it caused them, do you think, to do that? Was it because they could not escape to the boat deck by the companion ladder leading to the front part of the ship? - I do not believe so.
       The Commissioner: How can he know that? Do let us have some sort of order in these questions. How can he know why they did come aft?
       Mr. Harbinson: Did you form any opinion at the time?
10236. (The Commissioner.) Did you ask them why they were coming aft? - No, Sir, there was no occasion to ask.
10237. (Mr. Harbinson.) Did you form any opinion at the time? - I knew why they were coming aft.
10238. That is what I want to know. Why did they come aft? - Because the forward section had already taken water.
10239. And that was the only way they could escape? - Not necessarily, no. They could escape from the fore part of the ship.

Page 229

10240. Up the companion ladder would have been the nearest way for them, would not it? - Yes.
10241. But they did not do that; they chose the other way? - They chose the other way?
10242. That is rather curious, is it not? - No, it is not curious at all.
10243. Is it not? - No.
10244. That is to say, they go the whole length of the ship and come up from the well deck at the back, rather than go up the companion ladder leading from the fore deck to the boat deck? - Perhaps the people did not stop to think where they were going to.
10245. If there had been anybody to show them, they would not have had occasion to think? - That may be so.
10246. According to you - and, of course, I am not disputing the accuracy of your figures at all - you took practically the whole of your section, the greater number of them, up; you took two batches? - Yes, but they were not all men.
       The Commissioner: Oh, no, no. Do not make that mistake. They were not all from his section. A great many of them were from other sections.
10247. (Mr. Harbinson.) All your own went up except the few who refused to go? - All of mine went up except a few.
       The Commissioner: Some of them went up and went back again.
10248. (Mr. Harbinson.) I will deal with that, your Lordship. (To the Witness.) Except the few who you say refused to go? - Yes; all went to the boat deck.
10249. Except the few who refused to go? - Yes.
10250. With regard to the ones who went up and went back again when they found, I think you said, it was rather cold on the boat deck, did they belong to the first or second lot that you took up? - How do you mean? Please say that again.
10251. You said a number went to the boat deck and returned to their berths? - They belonged to the first lot, because the second lot I saw placed in boat No. 15.
10252. The whole of them? - Yes.
10253. How many of the first lot returned to their berths? - I cannot tell you that.
10254. You cannot give any estimate? - No. I know I saw them to the boat deck.
10255. According to you, all the women and children, from the aft part of the boat who were taken up and who wanted to escape could have done so? - I do not doubt that for a moment.
10256. Can you explain how it was, that being so, that 55 percent of the women of the third class were drowned? - I cannot account for it - No, sir.
10257. I would like you to try and give us your opinion. That is a very high percentage, is it not? - I simply referred to those that I took up.
10258. (The Commissioner.) Were you ever in an accident of this kind before? - Something similar, my Lord.
10259. When was that? Were a great many people drowned? - There was nobody drowned.
10260. Then it was not an accident. Can you form any opinion as to what percentage of third class passengers might be expected to be drowned in an accident like this? - No, my Lord.
       The Commissioner: Do not ask him such questions - they do not help me at all.
       Mr. Harbinson: If I may respectfully explain to your Lordship, after what he has said it raises a curious condition of affairs - That all the women could have escaped who wanted to escape, and yet the fact remains, as stated by the learned Attorney-General, that the percentage of the third class female passengers who were drowned was 55.
       The Commissioner: I know, but you are wasting our time by asking a steward questions about percentages. He does not know anything about such things. Ask him about things that happened and that he saw, and that he can tell us of, and then we will form our own opinion as to what deductions are to be drawn from the facts.
       Mr. Harbinson: I do not think I shall ask him anything more, my Lord.

Examined by Mr. HOLMES.

10261. At the time your boat was lowered, was the ship badly down by the head? - Yes.
10262. Had she a list? - Not that I noticed. I noticed she was badly down by the head.
10263. You did not notice any list either way? - No.
10264. Did you see any lights of ships out at sea? - When?
10265. At any time? - Yes.
10266. Before or after you were lowered into the water? - Before and after.
10267. In which direction? - On the starboard side of the ship.
10268. Bearing how from the ship? - I should take it bearing North.
10269. That would be on the starboard bow? - Yes, on the starboard bow.
10270. What were the lights like? - I saw two lights. I took them to be plain, ordinary white lights - two masthead lights.
10271. Masthead lights? - Yes.
10272. It looked like a two-masted ship? - Yes.
10273. Could you judge at what distance? - No. Distance on water is very hard to judge.
10274. Could they have been lamp lights in any of your small boats? - No. They would not be that high.
10275. Did you find a lamp in your boat when it was lowered? - No, there was no place to look for any lamp.
10276. Were there lamps in any of the other boats you saw in the water? - Yes.
10277. How many? - I saw three.
10278. Three other boats with lamps in them? - Yes, three other boats with lamps in them, and there may have been more.

Examined by Mr. COTTER.

10279. Is it not a fact that a bugle goes at nine o'clock every night at sea ordering third class women below? - Not to my knowledge.
10280. What time are they ordered below, off the decks? - It is the usual custom for the Master-at-Arms to go round and tell them when it is the proper time to go down - I believe somewhere about nine and ten.
10281. Between nine and ten they are ordered off the decks? - Yes.
10282. When you went below, or when you received the order from the Third class Steward, did not you, as a sensible man, think it was the only sensible order you could receive to go down and tell the women quietly to get out and get their lifebelts on? - Yes. But whether I had been told that by the Third class Steward or not, I would have done it.
10283. You knew that if you went down below and did not do it in that way you might cause a panic - they might be hysterical? - That was the idea in informing the people quietly.
10284. There were no orders given to tell the third class men - the single men living in the bow of her - to come up on the boat deck, were there? - Not to my knowledge.
10285. So that there was no necessity for a Steward to go there and show them the way to the boat deck at the top? - I believe that somebody went forward after the collision to try to see what damage was done after the collision had happened, and there met the passengers coming along. He came along with them. I believe that was the interpreter Mellor.
10286. He was bringing them along E deck? - The main alleyway, E deck.

Page 230

10287. He would not take them up to the boat deck and mix them with the women? - I do not think he would, because he brought them along that way.
10288. When you went down below, did you find any difficulty in getting the women to leave their baggage behind? - Some were inclined to take their baggage, but they, of course, would not be Europeans. I take it they were foreigners.
10289. You found a difficulty in getting them to leave their baggage behind; they wanted to take it up with them? - I did not find any difficulty at all, because I had no foreigners.
10290. But the foreigners did not want to part with their baggage? - I have heard so.
10291. When you went back again the second time, did you go down to F deck? - No.
10292. You did not go down to F deck? - There was no occasion to go there.
10293. Where did you go to? - The second time I went to my station on this deck.
10294. Did you see any water along E deck? - I saw none.
10295. No water at all? - I saw none.
10296. You saw no water at all along any deck from the time she struck? - I saw no water to the time I quitted that ship, with the exception of outside the ship, of course.
10297. I said, "along the deck"? - No, Sir; I saw none.
10298. What ship were you in when you met with your last accident? - I was in the "St. Paul" when she collided with the "Gladiator."
10299. So that you would know what to do in the case of an accident? - I imagine I would, yes.
10300. Were all the third class stewards trying to get the women out, and showing them up to the decks? - Yes.
10301. My learned friend thinks there were only eight stewards in the third class. Will you tell us how many stewards there are in the third class? - There are somewhere about fifty-nine or sixty.
10302. Part of them were bed-room stewards, and part of them were table waiters, is that so? - Yes.
10303. And they would all be doing their little bit to get the passengers up? - They all helped to get the passengers away. Those that were not told off to their own rooms were sent on the boat deck to help in the best way they could.
10304. Did you notice between the dining room and the after section on F deck whether there were any bulkhead doors? - Yes, there were two.
10305. Did you ever see them closed on the voyage? - Yes, I saw them closed at bulkhead door inspection on the day after we left Southampton.
10306. Was there a general bulkhead inspection the day after you left England? - Yes; the Chief Officer came round with Mr. Andrews, the man representing Harland and Wolff's.
10307. Were the stewards told off to close those doors? - Yes; I myself was told off.
10308. And you closed a bulkhead door? - Yes.
10309. Do you know what you closed those bulkhead doors for - what that drill is for? - Yes; I take it as such, that in case anything should go wrong with the machinery leading from the bridge in closing those doors.
10310. These doors are hand doors? - No; they can be closed from the bridge as well.
10311. On E deck? - Yes.
10312. I think you are mistaken, my Lord. I do not think that is a fact? - I think so. Anyhow, I closed them by hand with a big spanner.
10313. You turn a spanner with a wheel? - Yes; I turned it with a spanner.
10314. You are not sure about whether they can be closed from the bridge? - I would not be sure that they can be closed from the bridge on E deck, but I take it as such, by the overhead gear, that they could be closed from the bridge.
10315. The real object of that drill is, is it not, that in case of collision a man should go there and close the door? - Yes.
10316. Do you remember anybody doing it that night? - No, I do not.

Examined by Mr. LEWIS.

10317. When you returned from your first visit to the boat deck you told us you had some trouble to get back owing to the men trying to get up. What prevented you? - The stewards prevented these men getting up when the order was passed around for the women and children.

Examined by Mr. MAURICE HILL.

10318. When you passed from your "glory hole" to M and K sections, did you pass along F deck or did you go up at once on to E deck by the stairway? - I went on to E deck by the stairway.
10319. Just outside your quarters? - Yes.
10320. Were you at any time after that on F deck? - No.
       The Commissioner: Do you want to ask this witness any more questions?
       The Solicitor-General: Just one or two more, my Lord.

Further examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL.

10321. Some questions have been put to you by some of these gentlemen rather suggesting that you discouraged these third class people from doing what was best to save their lives. Did you do anything of the sort? - No, Sir, I would not take it that way.
10322. I suppose you found they got a little excited when they were asked to put their lifebelts on? - They were simply told to put their lifebelts on in a quiet manner to prevent any kind of a panic that might have ensued.
10323. And you did your best to discharge that duty? - Yes.
10324. Was that before any order had been passed along that these people were to go up to the boat deck? - Yes.
10325. And when the order was passed along that they were to be taken up to the boat deck, did you do your best to get them through? - I did my duty, Sir, to get them through.

(The Witness withdrew.)

ALBERT VICTOR PEARCEY, Sworn.

Examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

10326. Were you a third class pantryman on the "Titanic"? - Yes.
10327. Had you been in the employment of the White Star Line for some five years? - Yes.
10328. You were transferred to the "Titanic" from the "Olympic"? - Yes.
10329. And were you employed as a third class pantryman on the first voyage of the "Titanic"? - Yes.
10330. Were you off duty when this collision occurred on that Sunday night? - Yes.
10331. Were you standing with others outside the pantry? - Yes.

Page 231

10332. Is that on E deck? - Yes, I think it is E deck. I am not quite sure.
10333. Do you remember where it was? - Just outside the pantry door in the main alleyways. Just under the main alleyway of E deck.
       Mr. Laing: Just behind the third class dining room.
       The Commissioner: On what deck did you say?
10334. (The Attorney-General.) He said E deck, but I am not sure that he is right. - I am not sure I am right. I know it is just outside the pantry.
10335. I am going to put a question that will clear that up. Was it on the same deck as the third class stewards had their quarters? - Yes.
10336. On the same deck as the third class dining saloon? - Yes.
       The Attorney-General: Then it is F deck.
       The Solicitor-General: It is marked, my Lord, "Third class Pantry" - just on the after side of it.
       The Attorney-General: It is just after the third class dining saloon.
       The Commissioner: No, it is apparently close to the boiler casing.
       The Attorney-General: It is also abaft of the third class dining saloon.
       The Commissioner: On the port side? - On the starboard side it is close to the dining saloon.
       The Attorney-General: So it is, I think, on the other. Both on the port and starboard side it is just abaft of the third class dining saloon. The boiler casing is marked in between.
       The Commissioner: On the plan I have there is only one dining saloon marked.
       The Attorney-General: I think they are both marked "Third class Dining Saloon."
       The Solicitor-General: The title is "Third class Dining Saloon."
       The Attorney-General: It is all one? - your Lordship sees.
       The Commissioner: Yes, I understand.
10337. (The Attorney-General - To the Witness.) Did you feel the collision? - Not at all.
10338. What was it that first indicated to you that there had been a collision with the iceberg? - There was just a small motion, but nothing to speak of.
10339. What happened immediately after this motion? - The order was "All watertight doors to be closed."
10340. Are you referring to the watertight doors of this F deck? - Yes.
10341. Were they closed? - Yes.
10342. Did you help to close them? - Yes.
10343. Did several other men help with you? - Yes.
10344. Where did you close them? - I closed them on towards aft. I closed the pantry doors of my pantry on the starboard and port sides.
       The Attorney-General: Does your Lordship see them marked on the plan, on the starboard and port sides of the pantry.
       The Commissioner: Yes.
10345. (The Attorney-General.) Both of them are on the afterpart of the pantry. (To the Witness.) You said you were a third class pantry man. What was your duty? Had you any duty in connection with the passengers? - No, not at all.
10346. You had not to look after them at all? - No.
10347. Your business was entirely in the pantry? - Yes.
10348. Who was the chief third class steward? - Mr. Kieran.
10349. Did he give any orders that you heard? - The order that I heard was, "Assist all passengers on to boat deck."
10350. (The Commissioner.) That meant, I suppose, "Assist all passengers"? - Assist third class passengers. When Mr. Kieran gave that he would mean to say the third class passengers.
10351. Get on to the boat deck? - All passengers get on to the boat deck.
10352. (The Attorney-General.) You understood that to mean the third class passengers who were under his charge? - Certainly.
10353. Was anything said about lifebelts? - I did not hear it, Sir.
10354. Did you help? - Yes.
10355. Tell us what you did? - The lifebelts I put on their heads, and I tied the strings round them.
10356. You helped them with the lifebelts - helped to tie them on? - Yes.
10357. Then when you had done that, where did you go? - I passed all the passengers I could see forward to the boat deck.
10358. How did you pass them forward to the boat deck? - Through the emergency door.
10359. Where was that emergency door to which you are referring? - The one right forward.
10360. Where does it lead through? - Right through the saloon companion.
10361. What saloon? - The first class.
10362. Right through the first class saloon companion? - Yes.
10363. That would be on the next deck, would it not, on the upper deck? - Yes.
10364. Deck E? - Yes.
10365. Would that be leading into the alleyway ? - Yes.
10366. As the people came along there you passed them through this door, did you? - Yes.
10367. Where did the people come from? - They came from forward.
10368. The people came from forward? - The people came from forward.
10369. Were they men or women? - All men, Sir.
10370. They were all from forward? - Yes.
10371. You passed them up to that door; did you give them any directions? - Yes, passed the directions right up. There were stewards besides me.
10372. Right up the whole way? - Right through the saloon to the companion - right through that door right up the saloon companion leading to the top deck.
10373. To the boat deck? - Yes.
10374. And you and others directed them? - Yes.
10375. Were there stewards posted at stations all along the way? - Yes.
10376. From forward? - Yes.
10377. Up to the companion? - Yes.
10378. Did you go down to the passengers quarters at all? - No, not at all.
10379. It was not part of your duty? - It was not part of my duty at all.
10380. You were carrying out what you were told by the steward - to assist them up to the boat deck? - Yes.
10381. Did a great number of passengers come along that alleyway? - Yes.
10382. Did you remain there until there were no more coming along the alleyway? - As far as I could see.
10383. You remained there until you could see no more passengers coming along the alleyway; is that right? - Yes.
10384. What did you do then? - I went to the boat deck myself.
10385. What was the time then? - Between one and half-past. It was nearly half-past one.
10386. You had nothing to do with the passengers who came from the afterpart of the ship? - No.
10387. When you found there were no more passengers coming along, you went up to the boat deck yourself? - Yes, I went up to the boat deck myself.
10388. Did the other stewards go with you? - Yes.
10389. And those who had been stationed there and who had been assisting in the directions? - Yes.
10390. When you got to the boat deck will you tell us what you saw? - I saw two babies on the deck; I picked them up in my arms and took them to the boat.
10391. Do you know what boat it was you took them to? - A collapsible boat.
10392. Was there any officer there? - Yes.
10393. Who? - The Chief, Mr. Murdoch.
10394. Do you remember whether the collapsible was on the starboard or the port side? - On the starboard side.
10395. Did Mr. Murdoch give you any order? - Yes.
10396. What was it? - He told me to get inside with the babies and take charge of them.
10397. Were you attached to any boat; had you a station on any boat? - Yes.

Page 232

10398. What was it? - No. 3 on the starboard side.
10399. That was the second boat - the first lifeboat after the emergency? - Yes.
10400. Did you notice what had happened with regard to any of the other boats on the starboard side when you were ordered into the collapsible? - Not at all.
10401. When you came on the boat deck you did not see? - No.
10402. Did you notice whether No. 3 boat, your own boat, was there or not? - Yes, it was gone.
10403. You did notice that No. 3 boat was gone? - Yes, my boat was gone.
10404. Where was the collapsible when you were told to get into it? - By the side of No. 3 on the starboard side.
10405. On the starboard side? - Yes, on the starboard side close to number 3. That was the boat I was stationed in.
10406. Close by where number 3 would have been if it had been in its ordinary place? - Yes.
10407. Had it been moved or was it where you usually saw it? - It was where I always saw it.
10408. Did you notice whether the emergency boat had gone or not? - No.
10409. Did you notice anything more at all about the boats except that number 3 was gone? - No, I never noticed anything more.
10410. Were there people in the collapsible boat? - Yes.
10411. Were they women or men? - All women, Sir.
10412. And children? - Children and women.
10413. And some of the crew? - Five of the crew with the Quartermaster.
10414. Did that include yourself? - There were three Firemen, myself, and a Quartermaster.
10415. Do you remember how many you were in the boat? - Just about sixty-six.
10416. Does that include the crew? - That is without counting the crew.
10417. About sixty-six passengers? - Sixty-six passengers and five of the crew - seventy-one.
10418. (The Commissioner.) That means seventy-one in all, does it? - Yes.
10419. (The Attorney-General.) Did you count the passengers at all? - I took notice of the passengers - what there was there. I counted there were just about sixty-six.
10420. You mean when you could see? - Yes.
10421. Do you remember how the collapsible was launched at all into the water? - No. It is launched, of course. It is put down the side.
10422. It is put over the side? - It was swung out.
10423. By the davits? - Yes.
10424. Swung out by the davits? - Could you tell us, was that where No. 1 boat was or No. 3? - No. 3.
10425. That is what you mean, is it? - Yes.
10426. As I understand you, No. 3 boat, that is the first lifeboat on the starboard side? - Yes.
10427. And your boat took its place? - Yes.
10428. The collapsible boat? - Yes.
10429. And by means of the davits which were there ordinarily for No. 3 boat you were lowered into the water? - Yes.
10430. Probably that is how it is you noticed No. 3 boat was gone? - Yes.
10431. Were there any women or children on the deck in the neighbourhood of the boat when you left? - I did not notice. I never noticed at all.
10432. I want to quite understand what you mean when you say you never noticed. Do you mean that you did not see any, or you do not know whether any were there? - I did not see any women there at all.
10433. You did not see any women there at all; is that it? - Yes.
10434. That is in the neighbourhood of the boat, I asked you? - Yes.
10435. Did you notice whether there were any women and children on the deck at all when you left? - No.
10436. Do you mean you did not see any? - I did not see any.
10437. Your boat was launched over the side by means of the falls? What happened to it, do you remember? What happened when you first got to the water? Did it float all right? - Yes.
10438. Were the sides up - the canvas bulwarks? - Yes.
10439. Was it dry when you got into the water? - Yes.
10440. Who was in charge? - The Quartermaster.
10441. Do you remember his name? - No, I do not.
10442. Tell us what happened to it. I want you to tell us all you can. You got into the boat; there was the Quartermaster in charge. I suppose some of you started rowing? - Yes; I handed the babies over to the passengers, and I took the oars.
10443. You took the oars with the rest of the crew? - Yes.
10444. Did any of the passengers help you to row, or was it all done by you - the crew? - Done by the crew.
10445. How far did you row? Did you row right away from the ship? - Yes. We rowed away from the ship. We rowed her a distance out.
10446. You rowed out a distance from the ship? - Yes.
10447. You could not tell us how far? - No.
10448. Did you notice when you rowed away whether the ship had any list? - Yes, the ship had a list on her port side.
10449. Did you notice whether she was down by the head? - No, I did not notice.
10450. Did you notice whether she appeared to be going deeper into the water forward - did you notice that? - No.
10451. Then you rowed away? - Yes.
10452. Did you see the vessel go down? - Yes.
10453. Were you facing her when she went down? - Yes.
10454. Were her lights burning? - Yes, the lights were burning.
10455. Up to the last? - Yes.
10456. Can you give us any idea of how long it was after you had started rowing away from the "Titanic" before she sank? - No, I cannot. It was 20 minutes to two when we came away from her.
10457. That will help us. It was 20 minutes to two, you remember, when you started rowing away from the ship's side - is that right? - Yes.
10458. That is what you mean, is it? - Yes.
10459. Not when you came up on deck, but when you started rowing away? - Yes, when we got away. It was just in time.
10460. How do you remember it was 20 minutes to two? - Because I looked at the time.
10461. That is what I wanted to know. Where did you look at the time? - One of the passengers had the time.
10462. And it was 20 minutes to 2? - Yes.
10463. Will you tell the Court what you saw? Explain to the Court what you saw when the vessel sank? - Of course, when she sank she went down. She went down this way (showing). I could not exactly say. I am only rough myself, and I cannot describe it.
10464. Let us see if we can help you. Did she appear to be plunging down by the head or the stern? - She was plunging forward.
10465. Did you see her stern out of the water at all? - Yes, Sir.
10466. Was the stern upstanding? - Yes.
10467. So that the stern was up in the water like that (showing)? - Yes.
10468. Could you see underneath her? - No.
10469. Could you tell that her keel was visible? - Yes, the keel was visible.
10470. Then, when you saw that, what did you next see happen to the stern? - She went down, you see. It upset me, and I could not exactly say.
10471. It upset you and you cannot give us a description of what happened? - No.
10472. Did you remain in this collapsible boat until you were picked up by the "Carpathia"? - Yes.
10473. And all your passengers? - Yes.
10474. As you went away with your 66 passengers and crew, and so you were picked up by the "Carpathia"? - Yes.

Page 233

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

10475. When this collapsible boat was lowered was the water practically up to the deck? - Not on that side - not on our side. That was the starboard side.
10476. Had you a light in this boat? - No.
10477. Was there a compass in it? - I do not know.
10478. Was there a supply of biscuits? - I do not know.
10479. Had you sufficient of a crew to row this boat? - No.
10480. Did you require the assistance of passengers? - No; we did not require them.
10481. You had 5 members of the crew in this boat? - Yes.
10482. How many would you have needed in order to row her? - It would want 8 - 8 or 9 crew.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

10483. Did anyone give you any instructions to stand at the first class emergency door? - No.
10484. Did you hear anyone give any instructions to any of the other stewards as to where they were to stand? - No.

Examined by Mr. COTTER.

10485. Where is your third class pantry situated? - Amidships.
10486. From the time the vessel struck until you went to the boat did you go down to your pantry at all? - No.
10487. Did you go near to the third class dining room? - No.
10488. Did you see any stewards along E deck taking passengers aft - women passengers and children? - No.
10489. You did not see them? - Not E deck. You say aft. I was not there. I was at the other end.
10490. I mean taking them from forward to aft? - No.
10491. When you got up to the boat deck who was standing by that collapsible boat? Was there any officer there? - Yes.
10492. Who was it? - The chief officer, Mr. Murdoch.
10493. Did you see Mr. Lightoller about anywhere? - No.
10494. What officer got into your boat? Was there any officer there? - Only a quartermaster.
10495. There was no officer at all in your boat? - The quartermaster.
10496. He is the petty officer of the boat. Was there any water in the collapsible boat by the time you got to the "Carpathia"? - No.
10497. It was all right? - Yes.

(The Witness withdrew.)

EDWARD BROWN, Sworn.

Examined by Mr. ASPINALL.

10498. Were you serving as a first class steward on the "Titanic" on the occasion of this casualty? - Yes.
10499. Have you served in liners before? - Yes.
10500. In what ships? - The "Cedric," the "Teutonic," the "Oceanic," the "Adriatic," and the "Olympic."
10501. All White Star boats? - Yes, all White Star boats.
10502. Do you know what your boat was? - The boat that I was assigned to was number 5.
10503. Had you seen the list? - Yes, I saw the list on the Friday.
10504. At the time of the accident were you asleep? - At the time of the accident I was asleep.
10505. Were you awakened by the shock? - Yes.
10506. I do not intend to take you in great detail through the earlier part of your story, because we have heard it many times from other people, but did you at first think that there was no danger? - I never thought there was any danger.
10507. And then after some 20 minutes had passed were you told that you were wanted on the boat deck to help with the boats? - That was the time I thought it was. You cannot judge time very well. I thought it was 20 or 25 minutes.
10508. Did you go on the boat deck, and do what you were told? - Yes.
10509. To take this matter quite shortly, did you first help with boat No. 5? - Yes.
10510. Did you help the women and children into the boat? - Yes.
10511. Those were the orders? - Those were the orders.
10512. Then did you go from that boat to No. 3? - Yes.
10513. And help there again with women and children? - Yes.
10514. Then did you go from boat No. 3 to boat No. 1? - Yes, I went from boat No. 3 to boat No. 1.
10515. And helped with women and children? - Yes.
10516. Having done that, did you then go and help with a collapsible boat? - Yes.
10517. I want you to tell me which collapsible boat that was, the one on the port side or the one on the starboard side? - The starboard side - the one that was under number 1 boat.
10518. Did you get that collapsible boat to the davits? - We did, Sir.
10519. Did you then proceed to fill it up with women and children? - Yes.
10520. Was Mr. Bruce Ismay taking any part in connection with that boat? - Yes, he was calling out for the women and children first. He helped to get them into that boat and he went into it himself to receive the women and children.
10521. Was that boat filled? - It was filled.
10522. What was done with that boat? - Filled up and lowered over the side.
10523. Was it then lowered down to the water? - As far as I can say. I saw it going over the side from the boat deck.
10524. Up to the time that that boat was filled and lowered away was Mr. Ismay there doing what you have told us? - Yes.
10525. Did you see any more of Mr. Ismay yourself after that? - Not after that.
10526. After you had finished with that boat where did you next go to? - We turned our attention to another collapsible boat that was on top of the officers' house on the same side of the ship.
10527. That was a boat which lay on the top of the officers' quarters? - Yes.
10528. You tried to get that boat down to the deck? - Yes.
10529. Did you get it down? - Yes; we got two planks on the bow-end of the boat, and we slid it down on to the boat deck.
10530. Having got it down, the next thing, I suppose, would be to get it to the davits? - We tried that, and we got it about halfway and then the ship got a list to port, and we had great difficulty. We could not get it right up to the davits, so we had to slacken the falls. The ship took a list to port, and we could not get it up the incline right up to the davits.

Page 234

10531. Did you do your best? - We did our best. We slackened the falls and made it fast.
10532. You did make it fast? - Yes, we did make it fast by slackening the falls, but we could not haul it away any further.
10533. Were you ever able to get it outboard so as to lower it? - No.
10534. Were there any women there whilst you were dealing with this boat that had come from the top of the officers' quarters? - There were four or five women that I could see there waiting to get into this boat if we got it under the davits.
10535. Whilst you were trying to get this boat up the hill, as it were, to the davits, did anything happen to the ship? - Yes, she put the bridge under then.
10536. She put the bridge right under water? - Yes, she put the bridge right under water.
10537. You spoke of a list to port, I think? - Yes.
10538. At the time that she put the bridge under water was the list considerable? - Yes.
10539. She was, of course, well down by the head then? - Very well down then, Sir.
10540. What happened to you when she put the bridge under water? - I found the water come right up to my legs here, and I jumped into the collapsible boat then. I cut the after fall, and I called out to the man on the forward end of the boat to cut her loose; she would float if we got the falls loose.
10541. Did this other man do that? - I could not say.
10542. Did she float? - I cut the ropes and then I was washed right out of her.
10543. You cut both falls? - No, only the after fall.
10544. What happened to the forward fall? - I could not say. I was washed out of the boat then.
10545. You were washed out of the boat, were you? - Yes.
10546. Did you notice what happened to these three or four women who had been standing there? - The last I saw of them they were in the water struggling.
10547. You could not help them, I suppose? - No.
10548. Then did you go down - did you sink? - When I got in the water I was in a whirlpool going round like this. (showing).
10549. Did you come up to the top? - Yes, I came up to the top.
10550. Had you got your lifebelt on? - Yes.
10551. Did you hear any noise from the ship as she went down under you - any explosions? - What I took to be an explosion, Sir - a great noise, a great report.
10552. When you came to the top of the water, what did you see round you? Did you see anything round you - wreckage or people? - Not then. There was no wreckage, but a lot of people in the water.
10553. Could you help me with regard to this; if you did not notice say so: Did you notice whether the bow broke off? - With the first report of that explosion I saw the afterpart of the ship giving a tremble like this (showing), and I thought by the afterpart going up like this (showing), and giving a bit of a tremble that the bow had fallen off. I might be wrong.
10554. But that was your conclusion from it? - Yes.

[There was no question 10555]

10556. I suppose your opportunities for observation were not very good at this time? - No. That part was practically under water then.
10557. When the afterpart gave this tremble, where were you then? - In the water; right before the forward funnel.
10558. Did you notice whether the lights of this afterpart were still lighted or not? - There were lights burning then.
10559. Could you see that? - Yes.
10560. After you had been in the water for some time did you see a black object? - Yes, I saw a black object.
10561. How long do you think you were in the water before you saw that? - It seemed a very long time.
10562. Was it a long time? - It seemed a lifetime to me.
10563. Did you swim towards it? - I did my best. I never swam in my life; but I kept myself up with the lifebelt, and I made my way the best I could towards it.
10564. Do you mean you cannot swim? - Yes.
10565. Then the lifebelt saved you? - The lifebelt saved me.
10566. Did that black object prove to be a collapsible boat? - Yes.
10567. I think it was half submerged, was it not? - Yes, submerged with the weight of men on it.
10568. How many people were there on it? - I should say there were 16 or 17 on it.
10569. You used the expression "with the weight of men on it." Were they men or were they some women? - They were all men then, Sir. The women we had on it were picked up after I got aboard of it.
10570. Did you get on to that collapsible boat? - I did.
10571. Did you remain on it? - I remained on it.
10572. Did you pick anybody up in that boat? - When I was there I saw them pick two up, a woman and a gentleman - a very big gentleman.
10573. You have spoken of the men on this boat. Were they passengers, or were they crew of the ship, or staff of the ship? - They were mixed up; there were some stewards, some firemen, and the rest passengers.
10574. Could you tell me how many were passengers out of the 16 men? - There was one fireman that I knew. I do not know whether there were any more or not.
10575. Do you know how many were passengers? - I know there were three stewards, and I know there was one fireman. I do not know how many more.
10576. (The Commissioner.) Do you know whether any of the 16 that you saw were passengers? - Oh, yes, Sir.
10577. How many? - You could not very well pick them out. I should say 10 or 12 of them were passengers.
10578. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) I believe next day, to go on a little further, you first of all were picked up by No. 14 boat? - Yes.
10579. And taken to the "Carpathia," were you not? - Yes.
10580. Do you know a man called Joughin, the Chief Baker of the "Titanic"? - Yes, I do.
10581. He has been here, and he has told us that he swam to a collapsible boat that was in trouble, after he had been in the water for some time, and they refused to take him in. Do you remember that incident happening? - That is another collapsible boat altogether.
       Mr. Aspinall: That is not your collapsible boat?
       The Commissioner: You gave me, Mr. Aspinall, or the witness did, the number of the boat that picked them up; what was it?
10582. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Boat 14. (To the Witness.) You were picked up by boat 14? - Yes.
10583. And we have heard it was the Fifth Officer, Mr. Lowe, who was in charge of that boat? - Yes.
       The Solicitor-General: That boat is the one that Scarrott and Morris have given evidence about already.
10584. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Do you know if on your collapsible boat there was a man - a cook I think he was - from the cook's department by the name of Maynard? - No. He was on the upturned collapsible boat.
10585. That clears it up. Then you were taken on board the "Carpathia." I want you to tell me these two other matters which I think you can speak about. Whilst you were working down the last collapsible boat from the top of the officer's quarters to the deck, did you notice Captain Smith? - Yes, the Captain came past us while we were trying to get this boat away with a megaphone in his hand, and he spoke to us.
10586. What did he say? - He said, "Well, boys, do your best for the women and children, and look out for yourselves." He walked on the bridge.
10587. He returned then to the bridge? - Yes.
10588. And about that moment of time the ship took her last plunge? - Yes, a very few seconds after that.

Page 235

10591. There is one other matter I want you to tell us about as you were on the ship to the end. Do you know what the Band were doing at the last? - I do not remember hearing the band stop playing. They were playing for a long time, but I do not remember hearing them stop.
10592. Where would the band be gathered; where would they play, do you know? - Right on the forward companion on the very top - on the boat deck forward companion.
       The Solicitor-General: Between the first and second funnels.
10593. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Were they playing at the time when you were dealing with this collapsible boat from the top of the officers' quarters? - Yes.
10594. Up to as late as that your memory serves you? - Yes, they were playing then.
10595. (The Commissioner.) Do you mean up to the time when the Captain called out to you to look after the women and children? - Yes, they were playing a few seconds before that, Sir.
10596. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Just in order to get the names, if I can, of some of the people in your collapsible boat, do you know the names of any member of the crew that was in that collapsible boat? - Two besides myself.
10597. You know the names of two? - Yes.
10598. Will you give me their names? - Gus Whiteman, [August Weikman] the Chief Barber, the First class Barber, and W. Lucas, a First class Steward.
10599. (The Attorney-General.) You say Lucas was a steward? - Yes, a first class steward.

(After a short adjournment.)

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

10598. I believe that this collapsible boat which you failed to get into the water was practically a new collapsible boat the same as the others? - Yes, as far as I know, it was.
10599. And would have been serviceable if you had succeeded in getting it launched? - Yes.
10600. Did the fact that this boat was on the top of the officers' quarters make it difficult to get her near the davits? - No, Sir; not if the ship had been on an even keel; but when we got it down on to the boat deck the ship had a list to port.
10601. I know that was against you, of course. The other collapsibles were under the davits, were not they - under other boats? - They lie just behind the No. 1 davit.
10602. And I suppose if this boat had been placed under one of the ordinary lifeboats it would have been quite an easy matter, even with a list, to have launched it? - If it was right under the davits - Yes.
10603. As you were one of the last to leave the boat before she sank, I want to ask you this question: Did you observe just at that time the lights of any ship in your vicinity? - I never saw any, Sir.
10604. Or even when you got into the water and on to the raft? - Only the lights of our own boats.

Examined by Mr. COTTER.

10605. How long have you been going to sea? - Eight years.
10606. Have you been in any other company except the White Star Line? - My two first voyages to sea were in the Dominion Line.
10607. Do you know what boat drill is? - I do.
10608. What was the number of your boat on the "Titanic"? - No. 5.
10609. You saw that on the list? - I saw that on the list.
10610. In the pantry? - In the pantry.
10611. Had you any bulkhead door allotted to you? - No.
10612. Do you know anything about the bulkhead doors on the "Titanic"? - Which way do you mean?
10613. Where they were situated? - Of course, down below in the engine room department. I do not know anything about them; our department a little.
10614. Tell us what you know about the bulkhead doors and where they were situated? - On E deck, I know there are four there; that is on the port side. On the starboard side I know of two.
10615. Did you take any part in any bulkhead door drill? - No.
10616. You do not know whether the bulkhead doors were closed during the voyage, as far as it went, of the "Titanic"? - Not so far as I know.
10617. Now, I will take you up to the boats. When you got on deck you went to No. 5 boat, you stated? - Yes, I went to No. 5. That was my boat.
10618. And from there to No. 3? - Yes, No. 3.
10619. When you got to No. 1 did you receive any orders? - When I got as far as No. 1 boat I heard an order called out to cut the collapsible boat loose that was lying under No. 1 boat.
10620. You heard an order? - I heard an order given; I do not know who by. It might have been one of the officers, I do not know. I heard an order given to cut the collapsible boat loose.
10621. Did you go to the collapsible boat? - I did, and got my knife out and cut it loose.
10622. Did you see No. 1 launched? - No. My attention was on the collapsible boat, and I could not see what was going on in No. 1. I was that close to it (showing), but I could not see what went away in it or anything else.
10623. You never heard the order to launch No. 1? - No, I was working down below the collapsible.
10624. Did you see the first collapsible boat go away? - I did, off the starboard side.
10625. Was it launched from the davits? - Right from the davits, yes.
10626. Did you see Mr. Ismay about? - Yes, he was standing in the boat receiving women and children.
10627. He was standing in the boat? - He was receiving women and children in the collapsible boat when it was hanging over the side on the davits.
10628. Were there any women about after it had been launched? - I saw four or five women when we were trying to get the boat away.
10629. When you were launching? - When the first collapsible boat went there were no more women there to get in the boat and it was practically full then.
10630. How long from the launching of that collapsible boat with Mr. Bruce Ismay in it, was it that you saw the women? - I suppose it took us about 10 or 12 minutes to get the other boat down.
10631. That is when you were getting the boat off the house? - Yes, off the officers' house, and those women were waiting to get into the boat if we could have got it away.
10632. They came along after the first collapsible boat had gone? - Yes.
10633. How many men did it take to get that collapsible boat off the house? - I could not tell you the number; there were seven or eight on the top deck and two or three down below receiving it.
10634. Where did you get the planks from to put against the house to get the collapsible boat down? - Where they came from I cannot say, but they were there ready.
10635. Were they planks or masts or oars out of some of the other boats? - That I did not take much notice of, whether they were masts or what. I think they were the planks that held the awnings on the other boats.

Page 236

10636. You mean the fore-and-aft? - Yes.
10637. You had two fore-and-afters and put them there? - Yes.
10638. Was anybody hurt? - No.
10639. Had you any difficulty in sliding that boat off the house? - We put the bow of it on the planks and let it slide down.
       Mr. Cotter: With your permission, my Lord, could we have the model canted over?
       The Commissioner: Certainly.
10640. (Mr. Cotter - To the Witness.) Will you show us how far she had a list? Say when to stop. (The model was moved.) - That will do.
10641. She had a list to port? - Yes.
10642. And the bow down that way? - Yes.
10643. It was a cant on that way and a list to port? - Yes.
10644. When you started to bring the Englehardt boat off the house? - Yes.
10645. Did you land it down to the deck next to the house or near the davit? - Right alongside to the house, the length of the planks; we put them half-way between the house and the davits.
10646. You would have to pull your falls over from the davits, loose your falls and drag them over and fix them on the boat? - Yes, we did that when we found we could not push it up the incline. We had to slacken the falls.
10647. Suppose you had got them on the davits, with the list she had on, could you have launched her? - We should have launched it. We should have got it out, swung the davits out first and then put the people in. It would have been a little difficult, but I think we could have managed it.
10648. With a ship with a list like that? - Yes.
10649. With a 70 feet drop? - Yes, because the weight in the boat would slide it along the side of the ship.
10650. The water was well up then, was it not? You might have been able to? - She had her nose pretty low down then.
10651. You could not get the forward end or afterend of the falls cut away? - I cut the afterend myself; I do not know about the forward. I shouted for them to be cut away and that the boat would float then, but I do not know whether they were cut or not. I know the afterend was cut.
10652. Was there anybody in there? - There was a lot scrambled into it then; when the sea came on to the deck they all scrambled into the boat.
10653. How many? Can you give us an idea? - I have no idea - practically full. The boat was practically full, when the sea came into it, and washed them all out.
10654. Washed everybody out? - Washed everybody out of the boat.
10655. Washed the boat away? - No, it left the boat there. I do not know where it went to then. We were washed out of it; that is all I know.
10656. Was there anybody around you when you were in the water? - Yes, and well I know it, because they tore my clothing away from me with struggling in the water.
10657. Can you give us any idea when you were picked up? Was it dawn or daylight, or dark? - When I was picked up by our lifeboat?
10658. By the collapsible? - It was a good while after daylight.
10659. So you must have been in the water say about two hours and a half? - A long time I know.
10660. When you got in the boat were there many men in that boat? - Yes. I suppose there would be 12 or 14 men in it.
10661. Were they passengers or crew? - Mixed up.
10662. Could you give us any idea how many of the crew? - I really could not say; I could not pick them all out at that time.
       Can you give us any idea?
       The Commissioner: He has told us there were 10 to 12 passengers. He has already said it: "I got on to the boat and was saved. We picked up a woman and a man; 10 or 12 were passengers."
10663. (Mr. Cotter.) How many were pulling when you got into the boat? - There was nobody pulling then because the boat was under sail when I got into it.
10664. Did they put out oars afterwards? - Yes, the officer asked for volunteers to row.
10665. Did you take an oar? - I did. There were three oars put out on the starboard side of the boat, and I took one on the port side.
10666. What condition were you in? - Were your feet or hands swollen? - My feet had burst my boots and my hands were all swollen up like this (demonstrating).
10667. And you volunteered to take an oar? - Yes.
10668. And you took an oar? - Yes.

Examined by Sir ROBERT FINLAY.

10669. Only one question. Did you hear an order given in the alleyway about the watertight doors? - That was the first order I heard after I was woke by the shock.
10670. Just tell us what you heard? - Who gave it I do not know, but I heard an order in the alleyway outside our quarters to close all watertight doors.
10671. There are watertight doors in the alleyway? - Yes, lower down, further aft than our quarters are.
10672. And you heard that order given? - Yes.

(The Witness withdrew.)

CHARLES DONALD MACKAY, Sworn.

Examined by Mr. RAYMOND ASQUITH.

10673. Is your name Charles Donald Mackay? - Yes.
10674. You were a bathroom steward on the "Titanic"? - Yes.
10675. At the time the ship ran into the iceberg, were you in your quarters? - Yes.
10676. Were you playing cards? - I was playing bridge.
10677. Do you feel a shock? - Yes.
10678. Where were your quarters? - Amidships, practically amidships.
10679. Can you see this plan from there? Would it be these (Pointing on the model.)? - No, further forward than that.
10680. Which deck? - E, the working alleyway.
10681. Was it near the first class dining saloon you were? - Yes.
10682. Just abaft of that? - Yes, the afterend of the dining saloon, first class.
10683. Somewhere about there (Pointing.)? - Yes.
10684. Did you feel the shock? - Yes.
10685. Was it severe? - No, not too severe.
10686. You just noticed it. What did you do when you felt it? Did you come out into the alleyway? - Yes.
10687. You are speaking now of the alleyway on E deck? - The ship's working alleyway.
10688. On E deck? - Yes.
10689. Did you meet anyone there? - I met quite a crowd.
10690. Were you told something about what had happened? - No, we were told nothing.
10691. What did you do next? - The first order I heard was from the Second Steward to close all watertight doors on F deck.
10692. To close the watertight doors on F deck? - That was the first order I heard given.
10693. How long after the accident was it you heard that order? - A matter of about a quarter of an hour.

Page 237

10694. And did you go to F deck to obey that order? - No. The third class chief steward was sent for, for his men to do that order.
10695. Was that Mr. Kieran? - Yes.
10696. Did you see the Captain about this time? - No, I saw the Captain a matter of about 20 minutes after that.
10697. What did you see him do? - I saw him come down the working staircase and go along, I presume, to the Chief Engineer's room. About 10 minutes after that I saw him come back.
10698. You saw him come back, too? - Yes, and go up the same staircase.
10699. Shortly after that, did you get another order? - All hands were to be called and to get out of their quarters and proceed to the passenger decks.
10700. Who gave that order? - The second steward, Mr. Dodd.
10701. You said something about passengers? - The bedroom stewards were ordered to their passengers' rooms to tell passengers to get on warm clothing and proceed to the top deck, the boat deck.
10702. I think you were not a bedroom steward, you were a bathroom steward? - Yes.
10703. Does that mean that you had no particular passengers to look after? - We were told to get on the top deck and assist the passengers with their lifebelts.
10704. Did you take your own lifebelt? - No.
10705. What did you do? - I went to the top deck as we were ordered.
10706. What did you do when you got there? - Assisted passengers on with their lifebelts.
10707. When you say the top deck, I suppose you mean the boat deck? - Yes.
10708. Did you receive another order after that? - No, not then.
10709. When did you get your next order? - After we helped the passengers on with their lifebelts we were told to take our boat stations at our respective boats.
10710. Did you know what your boat station was? - Yes.
10711. What was it? - No. 3, starboard side.
10712. And did you go to No. 3? - Yes.
10713. Did you help to put people on board? - I did.
10714. Whom did you put on? - Women and children, and assisted one or two men.
10715. One or two men? - Yes.
10716. Why did you put men into the boat? - Because there were no other women there available to go, I suppose.
10717. The order was to put women and children in, was it not? - Quite right.
10718. When there were no women to go, you put in some men? - Yes.
10719. Can you say how many men you saw get into boat No. 3? - I cannot tell you.
10720. Can you give us any idea? - A matter of perhaps three or four; that is about all.
10721. After you had filled No. 3, I suppose that boat was lowered? - It was.
10722. What did you do next? - I helped to lower that boat.
10723. What did you do after it had been lowered? - Came along the line to No. 5.
10724. That was the next boat aft? - Yes.
10725. Did you help to fill and lower that? - No, pardon me, No. 7.
10726. You did not go to No. 5? - No. 7 went before No. 5.
10727. No. 7 went after No. 3? - Yes, to the best of my recollection.
10728. Did you put women and children into No. 7? - Yes.
10729. Any men into No. 7? - I believe so - a matter of one or two. I cannot state how many, for I do not know who were crew and who were passengers.
10730. After you had done that to No. 7 what did you do next? - I went back to No. 5.
10731. And did you do the same thing there? - No, I just watched the proceedings.
10732. What did you notice when you were watching the proceedings at No. 5? - She was filled up and lowered the same as the rest.
10733. Who were put into her? Could you see? - I could not say.
10734. Were they men or women? - Well, women, I suppose.
10735. Did you see? - Women, I said.
10736. You said "Women, I suppose." Did you see? - Well, when I say women, I mean to say women were the majority. I cannot say how many men there were lowered in that boat.
10737. Can you say whether any men passengers were put into that boat? - I cannot say. It is a hard job to tell a passenger from the crew when they are just simply called up out of their bed with simply an overcoat on.
10738. I am not blaming you. After you had looked on at the loading of No. 5, what did you do next? - I went along to No. 9.
10739. Did you help there? - The same proceedings took place.
10740. Did you help to put people into No. 9? - No, I watched proceedings.
10741. Did the same thing happen there? Women were put in if there were women? - All the women and children were put in first, and to fill up the boat men came after.
10742. Eventually did you get to No. 11? - I did.
10743. The first boat you mentioned was No. 3? - Quite right.
10744. Had you been to No. 1 before that? - No. 1 was on the davits.
10745. Did you see who were in it? - Nobody.
10746. What happened next? Did you watch what was done to No. 1? - No, No. 1 was on the davits when I left No. 7. After that I cannot say. I cannot tell you when No. 1 was lowered.
10747. No. 1 was on the davits when No. 3 was being lowered? - Yes, to the best of my recollection.
10748. And there was no one in No. 1 at all? - No; no one stationed by it even.
10749. The order of events was that No. 3 was lowered first? - Yes.
10750. And then No. 7? - Yes, and then No. 5, and then No. 9, to the best of my ability.
10751. And No. 1 was still on the davits when No. 7 was being lowered? - To the best of my ability, yes.
10752. I understood you to say you did not see anyone put into No. 1 and cannot give any evidence about it? - No, no evidence at all.
10753. You eventually went to No. 11.? Describe what happened with regard to that? - No. 11 was lowered to A deck.
10754. First of all, were crew put into it on the boat deck? - No.
10755. No one put into it? - No.
10756. It was lowered to A deck? - It was lowered to A deck empty.
10757. Did you go down to A deck yourself? - No, the first order I heard given was, Mr. Wheat, the second assistant-steward, had an order from Mr. Murdoch to take charge of that boat.
10758. That was on the boat deck? - Yes. Steward Wilson and myself were ordered by Mr. Murdoch to collect all the women we could and take to that A deck, which we did.
10759. Did you collect women on the boat deck? - Yes, and we took them down the companion to A deck.
10760. About how many do you think you collected? - A matter of about 40 on A deck, we collected.
10761. On A deck? - Yes.
10762. But you told me you collected some from the boat deck? - Yes, I said a matter of about 40 on the boat deck.
10763. Which do you mean, the boat deck or the A deck? - The boat deck. We had our orders from the boat deck to collect all the women we possibly could.
10764. And you collected about 40 on the boat deck and took them down? - Yes.

Page 238

10765. (The Commissioner.) And took them down to A deck? - Yes.
10766. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Did you collect any more on A deck? - Yes.
10767. How many more, about? - I cannot say; we collected a few more. I cannot tell you within two or three.
10768. I do not expect you to, but can you say roughly? - I can give you a rough estimate of what the boat carried.
10769. That is what I want to know? - That is counting men, women, and children, 74 to 78, counting nine children.
10770. (The Commissioner.) This is No. 11? - Yes.
10771. It took away 70 to 80, you say? - No, 74 to 78, counting nine children - not all adults.
10772. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) You spoke of collecting some people on A deck itself? - Yes.
10773. When you say that, do you mean that you collected people who were already on A deck, or that you went to other parts of the ship and collected them there? - After we brought the people down from the boat deck that we collected, we filled up the boat from the A deck with passengers that were there.
10774. - 10775.   With the passengers that were already on A deck? - Yes.

10776. And you did not collect any others from other parts of the ship? - No.
10777. Can you say how many of that 74 or 78 that were in your boat were crew? - Yes, I could give you exactly - five stewards and one fireman rowing; the assistant second steward at the helm, two sailors, one forward and one aft.
10778. (The Commissioner.) Is that eight altogether? - No, that makes nine.
10779. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Nine, counting yourself? - I said five stewards, one fireman, two sailors (one forward and one aft), and the assistant second steward at the helm.
10780. (The Commissioner.) Then there were six stewards? - Well, one is the boss of the department; I hardly call him a steward.
10781. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Do you know the names of the sailors that were in the boat? - I could not tell you; I have not the slightest idea.
10782. Or of any other members of the crew that were in the boat? - Let me see. Yes, William Wilton was one.
10783. He was a steward? - Yes. Macmicken. [A. McMicken.]
10784. What was he? - A steward. Tessenger, [A. Thessinger.] Mr. Wheat and myself. That is all I can answer for. I cannot answer for the others because they were new men on the ship.
10785. Was the last name you mentioned a steward, too? - Mr. Wheat was the assistant.
10786. I thought you mentioned another name? - Tessenger. He was a bedroom steward on E deck. The other men were strangers to me; I cannot think of their names.
10787. (The Commissioner.) Macmicken, Tessenger, and who else? - Wilton, Macmicken, Tessenger, Mr. Wheat, and myself. They were the only men I can remember. The fireman's name I do not know; the two sailors' names I do not know, and the other stewards I do not know, because they were strangers to the ship. They never came from the "Olympic" to the "Titanic" with us.
10788. - 10789.   (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) That means, including yourself, there were ten members of the crew in this boat? - Nine, do you not make it?

10790. I thought I made it ten, but it does not matter? - Five stewards, one fireman, two sailors, and the assistant second steward at the helm.
10791. But you have not counted yourself? - Yes, I am counting myself as one of the five.
10792. That makes nine. You have told us there were also nine children? - There were 74 to 78, counting nine children ranging up to six years of age.
10793. Were all the rest women, or were there some male passengers? - There were two second class ladies, one second class gent, one first class lady, and the rest were all third class ladies.
10794. The rest were all third class ladies? - Yes.
10795. How do you come to know that? - Well, I do know; I cannot tell you why, but I do know. They were all third class people bar the four I have mentioned, bar the crew which was nine.
10796. You mean you could distinguish the first from the third, and that you counted them? - I cannot distinguish altogether, but I know when I got on board the "Carpathia" I found out they were third class.
10797. That is what I wanted to know. What did you do when you got into the boat in the water with people in it? Did you row away from the ship? - No, we had a bit of difficulty in getting away.
10798. What difficulty did you have? - The after fall would not run clear in the first place - it took three men to get the stern of her away from the flush of the water running from the ship's side.
10799. After you got free, did you row away from the ship? - Yes.
10800. How far away? - To the best of my ability a quarter of a mile.
10801. Were you within sight when the ship went down? - We watched all proceedings.
10802. Did you see a light while you were in the boat? - A supposed light do you mean?
10803. Well, I do not know whether it was a supposed light or not. Did you see what you thought was a light? - Yes, we thought there was a ship's stern light.
10804. Was it a white light or a coloured light? - It was a reddish light.
10805. And you thought it was the stern light of a ship? - Yes.
10806. Could you say in which direction it was with regard to the "Titanic", whether it was on the port or the starboard side of the "Titanic"? - Well, when I say it was the stern light of a ship, I should suppose she was going the same way as ourselves.
10807. On which side of the "Titanic" was it? - Starboard.
10808. On the starboard side; and you thought it was the stern light of a ship going the same way as yourself in advance of you? - Yes.
10809. And did you row towards that light? - For a matter of about two hours as hard as we could row.
10810. And did you lose sight of it in the end? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

10811. Who was in charge of No. 11? - Mr. Wheat, the assistant second steward.
10812. Were all nine of you able to row? - Yes.
10813. And you found that nine of you could manage this boat, even with that very full load of passengers? - Yes.
10814. Had your boat a lamp? - No.
10815. Did you look for it? - Yes.
10816. Had she got a compass? - No.
10817. Did you look for it? - Yes.
       1. You are quite sure it had not? - Yes.
10818. How long have you been going to sea? - 17 years the 7th of last May.
10819. I suppose you have experience of a number of lines? - Yes.
10820. Have you had training in the managing of lifeboats? - Yes.
10821. Where? - The Royal Mail Company, the Union Castle Company.
10822. And what others? - The American Line and the White Star.
10823. Is that training given to stewards and stokers and firemen as well as to sailors? - It is given to all hands in the ship.
10824. Does it go the length of getting you into the boats and rowing you round the harbour? - Yes.
10825. Is that frequently done? - Well, in one or two companies, yes, out of the four I have been in.
10826. What are the one or two in which it is frequently done? - The Royal Mail Company, the Union Castle, and the Union before the Union and Castle were amalgamated.

Page 239

10827. How often? - The day before sailing, and the day of sailing.
10828. And on those vessels is it also the practice to have during the voyage a boat muster or a fire muster? - On a seven weeks' voyage fire and boat muster takes place at the end of each week; fire muster on the Saturday, boat stations on the Sunday at the muster.
10829. On boats crossing the Atlantic, is there a boat muster each week? - One each end - not for the boats to be lowered in the water.
10830. I mean, calling the men on the boat deck and showing them their stations? - Yes.
10831. I call that a boat muster. Do you agree with me there? - Yes, a boat muster; that is quite right.
10832. Had you got a boat station? - Yes.
10833. What was it? - No. 3.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

10834. I did not catch whether you picked anybody up after the "Titanic" went down? - No.
10835. You did not see anybody? - We could not have picked up anybody if we had seen them.
10836. The boat was so full? - Yes.
10837. You did not see anybody near you? - Nobody at all.

Examined by Mr. HOLMES.

10838. Are you quite certain about the order in which these boats were lowered, Nos. 3, 5 and 7? - I have told you to the best of my ability; I am open to contradiction.
10839. Do you know a man named Jewell? - No.
10840. He has told us that No. 7 was the first boat in the water on the starboard side? - I beg to differ.
10841. At all events you are satisfied that 5 and 3 were in the water before No 1? - Yes.
10842. When No. 11 was lowered, was No 13 still on the davits? - No; No. 13 was being lowered when we were on the water's edge.
10843. About the same time? - About the same time.
10844. And before you were lowered, did you get any order from the officer on deck what you were to do? - In what way do you mean?
10845. What you were to do when you got into the water? - No orders at all.

Examined by Mr. COTTER.

10846. When you got the boat lowered how far did you pull from the ship's side before you stopped? - A matter of about a quarter of a mile.
10847. Can you give us any idea of the time which elapsed between the lowering of No. 11 boat and when the ship struck? - No; I will not make any stated time, for I do not know.
10848. You cannot give us any idea at all? - I will not attempt to, because I do not know.
10849. Did you see the ship sink? - Yes.
10850. Did you row back again? - No.
10851. You simply rowed away? - We did not row at all; we stood off about a quarter of a mile. From the time we left the ship to the time she sank we were a quarter of a mile away watching all proceedings.
10852. How many women were in that boat? Can you give us any idea? - Well, I say there were 74 to 78.
10853. Women? - No, all told.
10854. I mean how many women? - Well, I will allow you to abstract it; there were nine crew and one second class passenger.
10855. A second class gentleman? - Yes.
10856. That is 10? - Yes.
10857. That makes 64 passengers? - Yes, counting nine children; I do not know what they were.
10858. Can you tell us in what order your boat reached the "Carpathia" the following morning? Were you the first or the last? - Now you have got me guessing. I should say we were the last but three or four in.
10859. Were there any complaints in your boat before you got to the "Carpathia"? - Yes.
10860. Can you tell us what the complaints were? - Yes, they complained about being crushed up so much, and they could not sit down properly, and other people complained because they had to stand all night.
10861. Any complaint against the conduct of the men? - Yes.
10862. What? - Because we smoked.

Examined by Sir ROBERT FINLAY.

10863. You were told to collect the women. That order was given to you on the boat deck? - Yes.
10864. Where did you collect the women and children from? - All round the boat deck.
10865. They were on the boat deck already? - Yes.
10866. Then you collected them there and took them down to A deck? - We collected all we possibly could. That would amount to, say 40. I cannot be right to perhaps five or seven.
10867. Who helped you to do that? - A man by the name of Wilton.

(The Witness withdrew.)

The Solicitor-General: What we propose to do, with your Lordship's concurrence, is this. There are two witnesses that one or other of my friends would like to have in the box, and they both give, so far as we can judge, important evidence, a man named Wheat and the Quartermaster Wynn. Then when we have called those two, as far as we can see at present, we shall have exhausted this class of evidence so far as regards survivors who came across in the "Lapwing." [Lapland] I have made inquiries from my friends representing different interests, and as far as I can understand, they none of them suggest that any of the others who have come across in the "Lapwing" [Lapland] would be helpful. Then you will have the officers and other gentlemen later. I am leaving out of my reckoning at the moment any further witnesses who deal with boat No. 1. As your Lordship knows, there is a reason for dealing with that separately, and we are arranging to take that tomorrow. I hope it will be possible to deal with these two quite shortly.

Page 240

JOSEPH THOMAS WHEAT, Sworn.

Examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL.

10868. Is your name Joseph Thomas Wheat? - Yes.
10869. Were you assistant Second Steward? - Yes, assistant Second Steward.
       The Commissioner: Does that mean a second class steward?
10870. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) Does that mean a second class steward or not? - No.
10871. Just tell me who your superiors are in your own department? - The Chief Steward, the Second Steward, and the Purser.
10872. And you would come fourth, as it were? - Well, after the pursers; there are a number of them, quite a number of pursers abroad.
10873. You mean the purser rating; I see. Putting aside the purser rating, you have the chief steward and the second steward? - Yes.
10874. Was the chief steward saved? - No.
10875. Was the second steward saved? - No.
10876. At the time when this accident happened were you in your bunk? - No, just about to turn in.
10877. You were just going to turn in? - Yes.
10878. Did you hear the collision? - Yes, I heard a noise.
10879. As you judged it at the time, what did you think it was? - Well, I thought she had cast one of her propeller blades. It sounded to me like that.
10880. Have you been on a ship where that has happened? - Yes.
10881. And you thought it was that? - Yes, I thought it was the same thing.
10882. We must find out where your room was? - On F deck down by the Turkish baths.
10883. Is it the port or starboard side? - Port side.
10884. I see "Turkish Bath Attendants" and I see "Second Steward" marked. Those are on the side of the ship? - Yes, on the outside.
10885. Then I see on the inside, "Two assistant second stewards"? - Yes.
10886. That is your room? - Yes.
10887. You had a mate in your room with you? - Yes.
10888. Was he in the room with you at the time? - Yes, he was in his bunk.
10889. You roused him, I think, did you not? - Yes.
10890. Did he get up and find out what was the matter? - Yes. I asked him if he had heard any noise, and he said "No."
10891. What deck did you go to? - To E deck.
10892. That would be the deck immediately above you? - Yes.
10893. And what did you learn when you got to E deck? - Well, I met the night watchman. I think his name was Johnson. He told me she was making water badly forward.
10894. Was that man Johnson saved? - Yes.
10895. I think we have had him here as a witness; he is a Scotsman, is he not? - Yes.
10896. You met Johnson? - Yes.
10897. And he told you she was making water forward? - Yes.
10898. Did you go forward yourself? - Yes, I went forward myself.
10899. On the E deck? - Yes, forward on E deck.
10900. And what did you find when you went forward on the E deck? - I went down to the Post Office room, which is down on G. You will find a stairway leading from E down to the Post Office and baggage room.
10901. I want to trace this because I understand this is only a few minutes after the accident? - Ten minutes or a quarter of an hour.
10902. You were on E deck. You go forward? - Yes.
10903. And you go down as low as G deck? - Yes.
10904. Now will you tell me again which is the stairway by which you go down from E deck? - The first stairway leads down to the squash racquet court and then continues on down to the Post Office and baggage room.
10905. Is the stairway immediately aft of the squash racquet court? - No, forward of the squash racquet court.
10906. I thought forward of the squash racquet court was a bunker head? - When you go down to the squash racquet court you turn to the right to get to the squash racquet court.
10907. Is it the stairway which, when you get to G deck brings you close to the Post Office? - Yes.
10908. You went down that stairway? - Yes.
10909. And you think it was about ten minutes or a quarter of an hour after you had felt the collision? - About that, I should think.
10910. Now will you tell us what you found when you got down to G deck? - I saw the mail men dragging bags of mail up, which I took to be the registered mail. The water was already on that deck.
10911. It was already on G deck? - Yes.
10912. Did you get down to the actual level of G deck? - Yes, I was on G deck.
10913. You were standing there? - Yes.
10914. Was there water where you were standing? - No, it was just making up the stairs then, just making G deck.
10915. You mean coming up from below, the Orlop deck, to G? - Yes.
10916. Is there a stairway which goes down again from G deck to the deck below? - Yes, but that is behind those stairs. You turn round again to get down the stairs.
10917. I want you to tell us where you saw the water coming up as you say just making G deck? - It was almost flush with G deck when I got on it.
10918. Do you mean where this stairway is which leads down? - Yes.
       The Solicitor-General: Your Lordship has that, no doubt.
       The Commissioner: I have. This means that the water in this part of the boat had risen above the Orlop deck.
10919. (The Solicitor-General.) So I follow, at that part. Your Lordship observes this is the compartment of the ship which is immediately in front of the No. 6 section. No. 6 boiler section is the compartment next aft. (To the Witness.) Did you spend long enough there to see whether the water was rising rapidly or slowly? - Yes, it was rising rapidly.
10920. Did the water actually reach the deck you were standing on, G deck, while you were there? - Yes, it was just on G deck.
10921. Just reaching it? - Yes; it was over G deck before I left; it covered G deck.
10922. Then what did you do? Where did you go? - I went upstairs to E deck again and went down to F deck to close the bulkhead doors on F deck by the Turkish baths. There are two bulkhead doors there.
10923. And did you close those? - Yes.
10924. Did you do that alone, or did somebody help you? - I closed the inside one myself, and then to close the other we had to go on top and turn that one with a key. Mr. Dodd and Crosby, the Turkish bath attendant, helped me.
10925. Is Mr. Dodd the second steward? - Yes.
10926. Now we will first identify the two doors. They are on F deck, are they not? - Yes.
10927. I see just in line with the Turkish baths on my plan two watertight doors marked. One is a watertight door which is nearly amidships and the other is a watertight door more on the starboard side? - Well, they are both on the starboard side.
10928. Yes, they are; quite right. Which was the one you closed first? - The inside one.
10929. The one nearer amidships? - Yes.
10930. And that one you closed unaided? - Yes.
10931. Then did you pass at once to the other one which is on the outside? - Yes.
10932. And that one you were helped to close? - That was closed from E deck.
10933. It had to be closed from the deck above? - Yes, they are closed with a key.

Page 241

10934. Did you go up to the deck above and help to close it? - Yes.
10935. Now at the time when you closed the first of those watertight doors on F deck, the one that you closed unaided, was there any water on F deck as far as you saw? - No.
10936. You told us you thought it was about 10 minutes or a quarter of an hour before you went down and saw the water rising? - Yes.
10937. Could you give us some idea, how long after that was, or should you say that you closed these watertight doors by the Turkish baths? - I do not suppose it would be more than five or six minutes.
10938. Then you were a few minutes down looking at the water? - Yes.
10939. When you say you closed these doors, do you mean you did this out of your own idea? - Yes.
10940. Or had an order been given? - No, I did it on my own.
10941. As far as you know up to that time, had any order been given about closing watertight doors? - No. I heard none.
10942. What was the next thing after that? - After the bulkhead doors I proceeded up the stairs on to C deck. I had to pass D first, and before I got to C, Mr. McElroy was looking over the banisters.
10943. Is Mr. McElroy the purser? - Yes. He saw me coming and told me to get the men up and get all lifebelts and all passengers.
10944. What do you mean by getting the men up? - Most of them were down below at the time.
10945. By the men, do you mean the crew? - Yes, our own department.
10946. You would be one of the superiors responsible for a lot of the stewards? - Yes.
10947. You were to get them up? - Yes.
10948. Did you pass the word round? - Yes.
10949. You went to the stewards' quarters? - Yes.
10950. And gave these orders? - Yes.
10951. And did the stewards turn out? - Yes, they were nearly all out when I got down there.
10952. They were nearly all out already? - Yes.
10953. What was the next thing? - They were all round the decks getting the lifebelts on the passengers, and getting warm clothing on them, which took, I should think, about half an hour. Then we got the word to pass all women and children on to A deck on the port side.
10954. I want to get it in order. At some time you returned to your own room, did you not? - Yes, that may have been before I went to the glory holes.
10955. Try and get it in order for me, because I think you saw some water when you went to your own room? - That was later on.
10956. Very well, tell it us in the right order. - It was, I should think, about ten minutes or a quarter to 1 when I got the order from Mr. McElroy again to get all the men to the boats - to their stations.
       1. That is, all your stewards? - Yes.
10957. Did you pass that order along? - Yes, for as many men as I could see there; and then I went down below again and went down to my own quarters. I think you will find there were about six or eight rooms down our quarters, the Turkish bath attendants.
10958. There is a cluster of rooms on F deck there? - Yes. I went and saw if all the people were out of those rooms first, and as I was coming up there was water running down off E deck on to F deck, down our section.
10959. Water running down off E deck to F deck? - Yes.
10960. That is, from the higher to the lower? - Yes, it had come from E deck and was running down on to F.
10961. Can you tell us where it was you found this water falling from E deck to F deck? - It was running down the stairway.
10962. Is that the stairway near your quarters? - Yes, the only stairway down there.
10963. (The Commissioner.) In great quantities? - No, not very much.
       The Solicitor-General: Let us be sure I have the stairway which you are speaking of.
       The Commissioner: Is he saying there was water running from D to E deck?
       The Solicitor-General: No, my Lord, he has not said so yet; and I do not think he says so at all.
       The Commissioner: From E to F?
       The Solicitor-General: Yes. Your Lordship has the plan of E deck and F deck.
       The Commissioner: I have.
       The Solicitor-General: Will your Lordship look at the plan of F deck at the place where his own quarters were. It is the room marked "Assistant Second Steward." Now, next to that, immediately level with that is a stairway.
       The Commissioner: Yes, going up to E deck.
10964. (The Solicitor-General.) If you trace it on the corresponding plan of E deck you see it again. (To the Witness.) Was that stairway which is opposite your quarters where the water was coming down? - Yes.
       The Commissioner: Then it was coming down from E deck towards F deck down the stairway?
       The Solicitor-General: Yes.
       The Commissioner: But not in quantities?
10965. (The Solicitor-General.) I want to see what he says. (To the Witness.) Was there a stream of water, or was it merely trickling? - It was more than trickling, and it was not exactly a stream. It was more than trickling, though.
10966. Was it continuing to fall? - Yes.
10967. When you were there? - Yes.
10968. (The Commissioner.) What time was this? - I should think it would be about a quarter or ten minutes to 1.
10969. A little more than an hour after the collision? - Yes, about an hour, I should think.
10970. (The Solicitor-General.) Supposing the watertight doors in F deck had been shut, as you shut the two you know about, this water could not have come back along F deck, could it? - No.
10971. But, of course, there are no watertight doors in E deck? - There is one right forward on E deck alleyway.
10972. There is one? - Yes.
10973. But the bulkheads as a whole do not go up to E deck? - No.
       Sir Robert Finlay: I think two bulkheads do go up to E deck.
10974. (The Solicitor-General.) In a sense you are right, and in a sense, I am right. What I mean is you cannot, on E deck, shut the door. I said the bulkheads did not come up to E deck. What I meant was, the top of the bulkhead is the floor of E deck, level with E deck? - You mean of the F deck bulkheads?
10975. I want you to help us about the water. You saw water that was apparently coming from E deck and falling down the stairway into F? - Yes.
10976. But you did not find water backing along F deck? - No.
10977. There are watertight doors on F deck, and you had shut two of them yourself? - Yes, I thought the water had come up the stairway leading down to the Post Office, and then ran along E deck, and then down on to F.
10978. And, of course, if the watertight doors on F deck forward of that had not been closed then water could have made its way along F deck, and would not have had to mount the E deck, and then return to F deck? - Yes, it would.
       The Commissioner: Is the suggested explanation that F deck, forward of the watertight doors which he had shut were by this time full of water, and that the water had risen up to E deck? Is that the idea?
       The Solicitor-General: That is the idea, my Lord.
       The Witness: No, my Lord; in the section forward of the bulkheads where I shut the doors, I do not think there was water there at all.
10979. Then we are agreed. Where did the water come from, that you saw falling down the stairway between E deck and F deck? - I think that had come from the Post Office stairway.
10980. (The Solicitor-General.) That is right forward? - Yes, and there is no bulkhead between the stairway and those stairs on E deck.

Page 242

10981. I want to follow your idea; I think I do. You had already seen water in the stairway by the Post Office? - Yes.
10982. And that is on G deck? - Yes.
10983. And is there a stairway which mounts from that place near the Squash Racquet Court up to F deck, and from there up to E deck? - Yes.
10984. And assuming that the water rose high enough, is there anything there to prevent it from rising as high as E deck? - No.
10985. But supposing that the water rose there as far as F deck, it could not run aft on F deck, because you had closed the watertight doors? - It would come up the stairway. But the watertight doors are not near the Post Office.
10986. I know they are not? - The watertight doors are further aft.
10987. I quite follow? - There is nothing to stop the water from coming up to F deck.

[There was no question 10988.]

10989. What I want to see is why it did not come along F deck? - Because the bulkheads were there.
10990. Because of the bulkheads, and because the watertight doors in the bulkheads were shut? - Yes, but there are no bulkheads forward by the post office.
10991. No, but there is a bulkhead between the place where the post office is and where your quarters are? - Yes, there are two bulkheads.
       The Solicitor-General: I think your Lordship's suggestion is the one the witness means to make.
       The Commissioner: What is that?
       The Solicitor-General: That the water did rise in that stairway till it got to E deck, and that it then passed aft and fell into F deck.
       The Witness: Yes.
       The Commissioner: That is what he means?
10992. (The Solicitor-General.) Yes. (To the Witness.) You saw this water coming down from E to F. Were you there long enough to be able to tell us whether it was increasing in flow, or whether it was coming the same as it started? - No, I did not wait to see.
10993. You were only there a minute or two, I suppose? - Yes.
10994. Did you find any people in the quarters you had gone to search, or had they all left? - They had all left.
10995. They had all turned out? -Yes.
10996. And did you return then to E deck? - Yes, to the working alleyway.
10997. And did you go up this stairway, down which this water was coming? - No, I went further aft than that.
10998. You went further aft and then went up another stairway? - Yes. I came up the stairs out of my room; water was coming down there, but that was different from F deck, and then went through the emergency door on to E deck, the working alleyway. You will find "Emergency Door" right at the top of the stairs.
10999. We do. Was that emergency door open or closed? - Open.
11000. So that you did, if I follow you rightly, mount the stairs down which this water was coming? - Oh, yes.
11001. Then, when you got to E deck, the top of these stairs, you could tell whether the water was coming along E deck or not? - Yes.
11002. Was it? - It was coming from forward.
11003. From forward, along E deck? - Yes.
11004. Was it coming along that working alleyway? - No.
11005. Then where was it coming? - From the starboard side. The working alleyway was quite dry.
11006. (The Commissioner.) Was there a list by this time? - No, I did not notice any.
11007. (The Solicitor-General.) I want to trace that water. You saw it coming from forward, aft? - Yes.
       1. The passage way which runs across? - Yes.
11008. Along, not the working alleyway, but the other alleyway, that is, on the starboard side? - Yes.
11009. And then, in order to fall down those stairs, it would have to turn a corner, would it not? - Yes.
11010. The passage way which runs across? - Yes.
11011. And then fall down those stairs? - Yes.
11012. When you got up to E deck was there a continuous stream of water doing that? - Yes, but it was not very much.
11013. (The Commissioner.) Give me an idea of the quantity, because I do not know what "very much" means? - Well, it would cover the stairs; just enough to cover them.
11014. Do you mean to say half of an inch or something like that? - Yes, something like that.
11015. And was it going down the stairs quickly, or merely trickling down? - No, it was running rather quickly.
11016. (The Solicitor-General.) You came up those stairs? - Yes.
11017. Give us an idea in this way; you must have met something? - Yes.
11018. Did it go over the tops of your boots? - Not over the tops of my boots; over my instep.
       The Commissioner: Where was he when the water came over his boots?
       The Solicitor-General: He mounts up the stairs down which the water is coming.
       The Commissioner: Yes.
11019. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) Is that where the water reached up to your instep? - Yes.
11020. (The Commissioner.) Not up the stairs? - Coming up the stairs, yes.
11021. That is a good deal more than 1/2 of an inch; do you mean to say that the water on the stairs trickling down or coming down the stairs was so deep that it reached up to the top of your boots? - No, I did not say that.
11022. I thought you said it came over your instep? - It had run from the top of the stairs over the tops of my boots.
11023. (The Solicitor-General.) Do not use that word instep, because different people mean different things by it. Take the ordinary heel of an ordinary boot. You were probably wearing heels? - Yes.
11024. Would it come to the top of the heel? - About the top of the heel of my boot.
       The Commissioner: I am sorry to trouble you, but when you have finished asking questions, will you explain to me what you understand his evidence to mean, with a pointer on that plan.
       The Solicitor-General: Yes, my Lord; I will do my best. I think I can do it up to this point now, if your Lordship desires.
       The Commissioner: Well, it will assist me if you will do that, if you will take the pointer and point me out on the plan the locality of the watertight doors that were closed, and then show me in what direction he means to indicate the water was coming.
       The Solicitor-General: I see here marked on the plan "Squash Racquet," and your Lordship sees there is a stair (pointing to the plan on the wall).
       The Commissioner: Tell me what deck you are pointing to.
11025. (The Solicitor-General.) I will. Your Lordship sees there is a stairway indicated by a number of ticks. I am now putting the end of this pointer on the level of the Orlop deck. As I follow the witness, that is the lowest deck to which he went in his description. He says he saw water rising in this compartment at that point up those stairs. (To the Witness.) Is that right? - Yes.
       The Commissioner: Climbing up those stairs?
11026. (The Solicitor-General.) Mounting up those stairs. He had came to it, so he says, from his room, by coming down a couple of flights of stairs down here. He says the water was rising as he stood there, and that it reached as far as G deck. (To the Witness.) Is that right? - Yes.
       The Solicitor-General: That is to say it ran up to that point while he was standing there?
       The Commissioner: What deck is that?
       The Solicitor-General: That is G deck.
       The Commissioner: That is the deck above the Orlop deck?
       The Solicitor-General: Yes. Then he says he went on his own motion aft in order to shut two watertight doors which are on F deck, that is to say, which shut off this space. The watertight doors, as I follow, are somewhere back here.

Page 243

The Commissioner: Which is the bulkhead in which they are placed?
The Solicitor-General: I think it is this bulkhead, and I think it will be found, if my friends are following on this plan, that that is the place.

11027. (The Commissioner - To the Witness.) Can you follow this plan? - I cannot see where the bulkheads are. (The position was indicated to the Witness.)? - Yes, I think it will be there.
11028. (The Solicitor-General.) There is the first class entrance immediately after? - Yes, it is just forward of the first class entrance.
11029. Then he came back along F deck to the point where the pointer is now, and the thing he shuts is a thing which in this diagram is marked with a thick black line. He shuts two of them, and then he says after that there were these orders given.
       The Commissioner: Where does that bulkhead stop?
       The Solicitor-General: That is the top of it, so that the floor above him, as your Lordship sees, is E deck, and the floor on which he would be standing when he shuts the doors is F deck.
       The Commissioner: Yes.
       The Solicitor-General: Then he says after some orders he returned to his own quarters, which are the other side of the ship; and when he got to his own quarters, which are on F deck, he found that water was falling down the stairway, which led from E deck to F deck. Perhaps the witness will tell me whereabouts the stairway would be.
       The Commissioner: I do not quite understand where that water came from that was coming down stairs. How did it get up?
       The Solicitor-General: It was coming from E deck. What I understand the witness to have said is, that he thinks that if the water, which he had observed mounting from the Orlop deck to G deck, continued to mount up that staircase there up to F deck, and then up to E deck, there would be nothing to prevent it running along E deck and falling down the stairway which led to F deck.
       The Commissioner: I see. Then the forward part of the ship, forward of the bulkhead in which he closed the watertight doors, must have been full of water at that time. Is that so, Sir John?
11030. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) Would that be so, do you think? - There is another partition between the mail room and the bulkheads that I closed. That has no bulkhead doors at all; it is just plain.
       The Commissioner: Take D bulkhead, marked on the F deck. If you trace that D bulkhead upwards towards the port side of the ship, you come to a watertight door.
       The Solicitor-General: Yes, my Lord.
       The Commissioner: Was that shut or open?
       The Solicitor-General: I do not know at all. I do not know whether the witness can tell.
       The Commissioner: If that was shut, then, as I understand, water would not get into the space between E and F on that deck; but if it was open, then the water would come into both those spaces.
       The Solicitor-General: Might I just ask Mr. Wheat to look at the plan?
11031. (The Commissioner.) Then it would come into the space between D and E, and then mount and get on to E deck and begin trickling down the stairs? (To the Witness.) Had she ever a list to starboard, as far as you know? - No, my Lord.
       The Attorney-General: There has been no evidence of that yet.
       The Commissioner: Because I do not understand the alleyway on the port side being dry.
11032. (The Solicitor-General.) I might ask him this to clear it up. (To the Witness.) You have evidently the design of the thing in your head. As far as you know, supposing that water began to rise in that stairway which you spoke of near the mail room, is there anything to stop it from rising from the Orlop deck to G, from G to F, and from F to E? - No.
11033. It is merely a question of whether there is sufficient water to rise? - Yes.
11034. Is there any watertight door that could be shut to prevent that? - No.
11035. So, as far as the stairway is concerned, it is open for the water to rise. Is there anything which would prevent water, if it got into the stairway on F deck from running aft on the F deck? - Yes, there is an iron bulkhead there.
11036. (The Commissioner.) Is that the bulkhead in which there are no doors? - Yes. We have no doors. I do not know whether there are any doors down below, but there are none in our department.
11037. (The Solicitor-General.) None on F deck? - No.
11038. So that it is a continuous partition at that point? - Yes, as far as our deck is concerned.
       The Commissioner: I do not know, Sir Robert, whether you could explain it.
       Sir Robert Finlay: I understand that what the witness suggests is that the water rose forward of this bulkhead D till it got to the level of E deck. It could not get through this bulkhead, therefore it rose vertically till it got to E deck, and then ran along E deck and then down.
       The Commissioner: I understand that, but does not it follow from that, that all the part of the ship which was forward of the point where the water was rising was full of water?
       Sir Robert Finlay: Not necessarily all, my Lord; it is highly probable.
       The Commissioner: I do not see what part of it could not be full.
       Sir Robert Finlay: What I mean is, if the water was coming in forward of this D bulkhead, getting into that division, it would rise.
       The Commissioner: As I suggest?
       Sir Robert Finlay: Yes, and then over the top of the bulkhead, along E, and down the staircase.
       The Commissioner: And that is what I understand him to mean.
       Sir Robert Finlay: That is my impression.
       The Commissioner: Whether it is right or not, I do not know. I think you are right in a way. I mean, it does not follow that the forward compartments were necessarily full, although no doubt they would be if the vessel was holed at that part, Sir.
       Sir Robert Finlay: Exactly.
       The Commissioner: If she had had a tear right along, opening those parts, those parts would be full as well.
       Sir Robert Finlay: They would be full on their own account, so to speak. I think the evidence does show she was ripped up; at least it suggests so far, that there was a rip up on the starboard side for a very considerable way.
       The Commissioner: Yes, and right from forward, along.
       Sir Robert Finlay: From forward. The same thing would in all probability have been going on in the forward compartments.
       The Commissioner: Yes.
       Sir Robert Finlay: What the witness describes would have taken place even if this compartment only had been open.
       The Commissioner: Yes, I think I understand it now.
11039. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) Have you a copy of the plan before you? - Yes.
11040. Look at the plan of F deck for a moment, will you? - Yes.
11041. Will you look where "Squash Racquet Court" is marked? - Yes.
11042. Now, I think the stairway which you are talking about is a stairway on the starboard side of that squash racquet court? - Yes, the starboard side.
11043. Now, what I would like you to explain, if you will, is this: Imagine yourself on F deck, standing on F deck at that point. Is there any watertight door at that level? - No.
11044. At that place? - No.
11045. It is a solid bulkhead without any openings in it? - There is an opening for the stairway to go down.
11046. Apart from the stairway? - There is nothing else.

Page 244

11047. Just look at the plan for a moment, because I cannot help seeing in that line, just a little on the port side "W.T.D."
       The Commissioner: That is the one I was asking about.
11048. (The Solicitor-General.) That is what I want to follow - on the port side of the squash racquet court? - That would be in the third class; either the third class or one of the fidleys.
11049. It is marked in our plan as being between the squash racquet court and the place marked "Linen"? - There is no bulkhead door down the squash racquet court.
11050. You know all about it, and we want to know about it? - There is no bulkhead door there.
11051. "W.T.D." is marked here (pointing on the plan)? - That must be the other side of the bulkhead. There is nothing down there.
       The Solicitor-General: Sir Robert has suggested to me on the large plan what appears to be the true explanation. I am still speaking of bulkhead D, as shown on the plan of deck F. If one carries one's eye along that bulkhead, from starboard to port side, it runs for a distance straight across the ship, and then it takes a right-angled turn and runs a little to the rear of the squash racquet court.
       The Commissioner: Yes, then it turns back again.
       The Solicitor-General: It turns back again, and it turns back again under the stairs.
       The Commissioner: It does.
       The Solicitor-General: That is to say, those stairs indicated close to the word "Squash" are really stairs which start from the F level and mount up to the E level, so that the bulkhead runs under those stairs at the side.
       Sir Robert Finlay: At the side?
       The Solicitor-General: At the side and then under them.
       Sir Robert Finlay: Immediately aft of the stairs.
       The Solicitor-General: Immediately aft of them, and then takes a turn under them when those stairs have reached the next deck.
       Sir Robert Finlay: Yes, that is to say, on the port side of the stairs?
       The Solicitor-General: Then, still tracing out the bulkhead, immediately following that there is a watertight door shown, which Sir Robert thinks must have been shut, and I gather it is a watertight door which would normally separate the third class from the first class?
       The Witness: No.
       The Commissioner: You notice there is a watertight door also in the bulkhead that starts from C?
       The Solicitor-General: There is, my Lord, in the same line, according to this plan.
       The Commissioner: Therefore you have a watertight door which, if opened, would have let the water into the space between C and D, and you have another watertight door which if opened would have let the water into the space between D and E?
       The Solicitor-General: Yes. Where this theory breaks down is, that the witness does not take the view that there is a watertight door there.
       The Witness: Do you mean down by the Squash Racquet Court?
11052. Yes? - There is no watertight door there.
       The Commissioner: Which is right, the witness or the plan?
11053. (The Solicitor-General.) We can only take the witness for the moment. (To the Witness.) Supposing you were coming up by those stairs from G deck round the side of the Squash Racquet Court, mounting up; you know those stairs which are immediately on the after side of the Squash Racquet Court, you see them there on the plan on F? - Yes.
11054. Supposing that you had got on F deck there, not up the stairs but on F deck - let me show you where I mean (indicating the position on the small plan.)
       Sir Robert Finlay: My Lord, we have a larger plan here. I do not know whether your Lordship would like to look at it.
       The Commissioner: I think I should. (Sir Robert Finlay handed the plan and explained it to the Commissioner.)
       The Attorney-General: Is your Lordship satisfied?
       The Commissioner: I think I know where the bulkhead door is. There is a door in the bulkhead at the bottom of the ship. There is none in the Orlop deck. The bulkhead as it rises into the Orlop deck has no doorway. When the bulkhead rises on to G deck it has no doorway in it at all; but when it rises on to F deck it has this doorway which you find in the plan in the D bulkhead by the linen room.
       The Attorney-General: Between the linen room and the squash racquet court on the port side.
       The Commissioner: Yes. Now that is the first open passage that there is in that bulkhead, after of course you leave the automatic door in the bottom of the ship. The door at the bottom of the ship would have been closed when the button was pressed?
       The Attorney-General: Certainly.
       The Commissioner: And you would have had then, with this particular bulkhead, a complete wall from the bottom of the ship, until you come to that watertight door which is by the linen closet?
       The Attorney-General: Yes.
       The Commissioner: And if that was shut - we do not know yet whether it was shut or not - we would have to get the water over the top of the bulkhead?
       Sir Robert Finlay: That is it.
       The Commissioner: In order that the water should find its way to the place where he saw it trickling down?
       The Attorney-General: That is right.
11055. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) You were a first class steward? - Yes.
11056. You had nothing to do with the third class? - No.
11057. Forward of this bulkhead, my Lord has been speaking about, it is third class, is it not, on the port side? - On A deck?
11058. On F deck? - I do not know of any door.
11059. I am not asking about any door. I say forward of the bulkhead it is third class? - Yes.
11060. Then you know nothing about that? - No.
11061. Your business is aft of that? - Yes.
11062. Whether there is a watertight door there or not, was there at that time when you were there any opening there? - No.
11063. You are sure of that? - Yes.
       The Solicitor-General: I think your Lordship will find the watertight door shut from the third class side.
       The Commissioner: If there was no opening there it means the door was shut.
11064. (The Solicitor-General.) Yes, it is the same thing. (To the Witness.) When you got up on to E deck did you see anything of any third class passengers? - There were a few there, five or six, I should say.
11065. Where were they coming from? - They were making from forward aft.
11066. Were they men? - Yes.
11067. Were they carrying their baggage with them? - They were carrying and dragging boxes and bags.
11068. Were they making their way aft towards the top deck? - Towards aft.
11069. Tell us shortly where you went? - From E deck up on to B deck up the service stairs.
11070. Tell us what happened there? - There I met Mr. Latimer on the B deck.
11071. He is your chief - the Chief Steward? - Yes, and he had his big coat on with a lifebelt over it and I told him to take his big coat off and put the lifebelt under it or his big coat would be no use to him. Then I went along forward and up the forward stairway up on to the boat deck and there I saw they were just filling No. 9 boat, starboard.
       The Solicitor-General: I do not think we have heard anything about No. 9.
       The Commissioner: I think this will be a convenient time to adjourn.

(The Witness withdrew.)

Page 245

The Attorney-General: With reference to Monday there is a question which has arisen.
The Commissioner: It would be better if we sat on Monday unless it is inconvenient to you. My convenience is entirely your convenience. It does not matter to me, but I thought Commander Lyon, who desires to be somewhere else, could go to keep his other appointment and read the evidence that is given on Monday, afterwards. Is there any objection?
The Attorney-General: I see no objection.
Sir Robert Finlay: I see no objection.
The Commissioner: I thought not. The reason why I want to sit on Monday is, I am afraid if we do not use such time as we have at present we shall find ourselves in an awkward position later on. I do not propose to sit on Saturday.
The Attorney-General: Then as I understand, what your Lordship proposes to do is to adjourn tomorrow evening till Monday?
The Commissioner: Yes, till Monday morning. Is that convenient to you?
The Attorney-General: Certainly I understand it is convenient to everybody.
The Commissioner: That will do, Mr. Scanlan, will it?
Mr. Scanlan: Yes, my Lord.
The Attorney-General: I think it will be desirable to have this made clear. I understand that none of the parties represented would object to Commander Lyon being absent on Monday and reading the evidence.
The Commissioner: I do not know.
The Attorney-General: I know your Lordship's view, but I do not want a question to arise.
The Commissioner: These gentlemen are sitting with me as assessors, and my present feeling is that I could go on without any of them, but I do not choose to. One of them has to go away for an appointment which is of some importance, and it occurs to me it would be far better for us to go on and let that gentleman read the evidence afterwards. Is there any objection?
Sir Robert Finlay: Not the slightest, my Lord.
Mr. Scanlan: I can say for myself, and I think for my colleagues here that none of us do object.
The Commissioner: I take it nobody objects .
The Attorney-General: No.
Sir Robert Finlay: By common consent, my Lord.
The Attorney-General: Your Lordship will remember on the occasion that Sir Robert Finlay applied that the cross examination of Hendrickson should be taken on Friday morning; and I suppose tomorrow morning we can go on with him the first thing?
Sir Robert Finlay: Or this witness might be finished.
The Commissioner: I think it would be convenient to finish this witness.
The Attorney-General: Yes.
The Commissioner: And then recall Hendrickson, and let Sir Robert examine him.
Sir Robert Finlay: Very well, My Lord.

(Adjourned until tomorrow, 10.30 o'clock.)