Page 185

Wreck Commissioners' Court.

SCOTTISH HALL,

BUCKINGHAM GATE,

Wednesday, 15th May, 1912.

PROCEEDINGS

WIITH

THE RIGHT HON. LORD MERSEY,

Wreck Commissioner of the United Kingdom,

WITH

REAR ADMIRAL THE HON. S. A. GOUGH-CALTHORPE, C.V.O., R.N.,

CAPTAIN A. W. CLARKE,

COMMANDER F. C. A. LYON, R.N.R.,

PROFESSOR J. H. BILES, LL.D., D.Sc.,

MR. E. C. CHASTON, R.N.R.

Acting as Assessors.

ON A FORMAL INVESTIGATION

ORDERED BY THE BOARD OF TRADE INTO THE

LOSS OF THE S. S. "TITANIC."

EIGHTH DAY.

THE RIGHT HON. SIR RUFUS ISAACS, K.C., M.P. (Attorney-General), SIR JOHN SIMON, K.C., M.P. (Solicitor-General), MR. BUTLER ASPINAL, K.C., MR. S. A. T. ROWLATT and MR. RAYMOND ASQUITH (instructed by SIR R. ELLIS CUNLIFFE, Solicitor to the Board of Trade) appeared as Counsel on behalf of the Board of Trade.

THE RIGHT HON. SIR ROBERT FINLAY, K.C., M.P., MR. P. LAING, K.C., MR. MAURICE HILL., K.C., and MR. NORMAN RAEBURN (instructed by Messrs. Hill, Dickinson and Co.), appeared as counsel on behalf of the White Star line.

MR. THOMAS SCANLAN, M.P. (instructed by Mr. Smith, Solicitor), appeared as Counsel on behalf of the National Sailors' and Firemen's Union of Great Britain and Ireland and of the personal representatives of several deceased members of the crew and of survivors who were members of the Union. (Admitted On application.)

MR. B0TTERELL (instructed by Messrs. Botterell and Roche) appeared on behalf of the Chamber of Shipping of the United Kingdom. (Admitted on application.)

MR. THOMAS LEWIS appeared on behalf of the British Seafarers' Union. (Admitted on application.)

MR. L. S. HOLMES (of Messrs. Miller, Taylor and Holmes, of Liverpool) appeared on behalf of the Imperial Merchant Service Guild. (Admitted on application.)

MR. COTTER appeared on behalf of the National Union of stewards. (Admitted on application.)

MR. HAMAR GREENWOOD, M.P. (instructed by Messrs. Pritchard and Sons), watched proceedings on behalf of the Allan Line Steamship Company.

MR. HAMAR GREENWOOD, M.P. (instructed by Messrs. William A. Crump and Son), watched proceedings for the Canadian Pacific Railway Company.

MR. ROCHE (instructed by Messrs. Charles G. Bradshaw and Waterson) appeared on behalf of the Marine Engineers' Association. (Admitted on application.)

MR. A. CLEMENT EDWARDS. M.P., (instructed by Messrs. Helder, Roberts and Co.), appeared as Counsel on behalf of the Dock, Wharf, Riverside, and General Workers Union of Great Britain and Ireland. (Admitted on application.)

MR. W. D. HARBINSON (instructed by Mr. Farrell) appeared on behalf of the third-class passengers. (Admitted on application.)

Page 186

CHARLES VICTOR GROVES, Sworn.

Examined by Mr. S. A. T. ROWLATT.

8111. Charles Victor Groves, is that your name? - Yes.
8112. Were you second officer of the "Californian"? - Yes, I was on the ship's articles as second officer, but took the duties of third.
8113. You are referred to as third officer in the papers? - Yes.
8114. You remember Sunday, the 14th? - Yes.
8115. Was your watch from 8 p.m. till midnight? - Yes.
8116. And we know your steamer stopped because she got among the ice? - Yes.
8117. At 10.26 was it? - Yes, at 10.26.
8118. And you had had a double look-out. We have heard about that and I will not ask you again? - Yes, a double look-out.
8119. Since about 6? - Since about 6.
8120. Had you seen any icebergs, you yourself, in the afternoon? - Yes.
8121. Where did you see them? - About 5 miles to the southward of us.
8122. What time was that? - About 20 minutes past 5 when I saw them, when I relieved the bridge. I relieved the chief officer then for his tea.
8123. You are talking about the time by your clock? - Yes, ship's time.
8124. When you came on watch at 8 o'clock was it clear? - Yes, quite clear.
8125. Could you see the horizon? - No, you could not see where the horizon in the sky finished but you could see stars right down as far as the sea.
8126. According to your judgment was there anything in the shape of a haze? - No, nothing whatsoever.
8127. None? - None.
8128. Was the captain on the bridge? - Yes.
8129. How long did he stay there? - He stopped there till about 10.35 - perhaps a few minutes less than that, but about 10.35.
8130. When he left the bridge did he give you any orders? - No he did not, not at that time. But I saw him after that.
8131. Did he give you orders about other ships? - Yes.
8132. When was that? - Probably that was just before he left the bridge, about half-past 10, but the exact time he gave those orders I could not say.
8133. What did he tell you? - He told me to let him know if I saw any ship approaching us.
8134. Did you see any ships approaching? - Yes.
8135. Now, what did you see, and when? - As I said before, the stars were showing right down to the horizon. It was very difficult at first to distinguish between the stars and a light, they were so low down. About 11.10, ship's time, I made out a steamer coming up a little bit abaft our starboard beam.
8136. Now, did you look at the clock? - When I saw the steamer?
8137. Yes? - No.
8138. Why did you say 11.15? - I say it was about that.
8139. (The Commissioner.) I think you said 11.10? - Yes, I said about 11.10.
8140. (Mr. Rowlatt.) That is your judgment? - That is my judgment.
8141. When had you last looked at the clock? - Ten-twenty-six - well, I had looked at my watch; we had no clock on the upper bridge. I set that at 6 o'clock by the ship's clock.
8142. You saw a steamer? - Yes.
8143. What lights did you see? - At first I just saw what I took to be one light, one white light, but, of course, when I saw her first I did not pay particular attention to her, because I thought it might have been a star rising.
8144. When do you think you began to pay particular attention to her? - About 11.15.
8145. About five minutes after you first saw her? - About five minutes after I first saw her.
8146. Did you then see more lights than one? - About 11.25 I made out two lights - two white lights.
8147. Two masthead lights? - Two white masthead lights.
8148. Did you make out any other lights then? - Not at the time, no.
8149. You said that she was a little abaft your starboard beam? - Yes.
8150. How were you heading? - At that time we would be heading N.E. when I saw that steamer first, but we were swinging all the time because when we stopped the order was given for the helm to be put hard-a-port, and we were swinging, but very, very slowly.
8151. You say you were heading about N.E.? - We were heading N.E.
8152. Did you notice that at the time? - Yes.
8153. Was that with a view to see in what direction the steamer was bearing? - No, for my own information.
8154. But it was at that time? - At that time, yes.
8155. Now, how did she bear, how many points abaft the beam did she bear? - Do you mean when I first noticed her?
8156. Yes? - I should think about 3 1/2 points, but I took no actual bearing of her.
8157. That would leave her S. by W.? - We were heading N.E. and she was three points abaft the beam.
8158. Your beam would be? - S.E.
8159. That would bring her about 7? - S. or S. by W. - S. 1/2 W.
8160. Could you form any judgment how far off she was? - When I saw her first light I should think she would be about 10 or 12 miles.
8161. Judging by the look of the light? - By the look of the light and the clearness of the night.
8162. (The Commissioner.) That was when you saw the one light? - Yes, when I say she was 10 to 12 miles away.
8163. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did she appear to get nearer? - Yes.
8164. The lights clearer? - Yes, all the time.
8165. Was she changing her bearing? - Slowly.
8166. Coming round more to the south and west? - More on our beam, yes, more to the south and west, but very little.
8167. Did you report that to the captain? - Yes, because, as I said before, he left orders to let him know if I saw any steamers approaching.
8168. You went down to him? - I went down to the lower bridge, which is part of the saloon deck.
8169. (The Commissioner.) Would this be something after 11 o'clock? - Yes, my Lord, when I went down to him it would be as near as I could judge about 11.30.
8170. (Mr. Rowlatt.) What did you say to him? - I knocked at his door and told him there was a steamer approaching us coming up on the starboard quarter.
8171. (The Commissioner.) The door of what? - The door of the chart room. It is a Venetian door.
8172. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did you say what sort of a steamer you thought she was? - Captain Lord said to me, "Can you make anything out of her lights?" I said, "Yes, she is evidently a passenger steamer coming up on us."
8173. (The Commissioner.) "Could you make anything out of her lights?" - Yes.
8174. "I said, 'She is evidently a passenger steamer'"? - Yes, my Lord.
8175. You added something to that answer? - "Coming up on the starboard quarter."
8176. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did you say why you thought she was a passenger steamer? - Yes. I told him that I could see her deck lights and that made me pass the remark that she was evidently a passenger steamer.
8177. (The Commissioner.) "I said I could see her deck lights"; was that true? - Certainly, my Lord.

Page 187

8178. (Mr. Rowlatt.) How many deck lights had she? Had she much light? - Yes, a lot of light. There was absolutely no doubt her being a passenger steamer, at least in my mind.
8179. Could you see much of her length? - No, not a great deal; because as I could judge she was coming up obliquely to us.
8180. She was foreshortened? - Supposing we were heading this way she would be coming up in this way, perhaps an angle of 45 degrees to us (demonstrating).
8181. So that her side would not be greatly extended? - No.
8182. Now is that all you said to the captain before he said something to you? - Yes. He said, "Call her up on the Morse lamp, and see if you can get any reply."
8183. Did anything pass as to what passenger steamers you were speaking with the wireless? - Not at that moment.
8184. The first thing he said was, "Call her up on the Morse lamp"? - Yes.
8185. What did you say to that? - I went up on the bridge; I went away and went up on the bridge and I rigged the Morse lamp.
8186. (The Commissioner.) How long does it take to do that? - It is only a matter of taking a key out of a locker up there and just putting the plug in.
8187. A minute? - Yes, that is all.
8188. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did you get any reply? - Not at first, no reply whatsoever.
8189. Did you afterwards? - Well, what I took to be a reply. I saw what I took to be a light answering, and then I sent the word "What?" meaning to ask what ship she was. When I sent "What?" his light was flickering. I took up the glasses again and I came to the conclusion it could not have been a Morse lamp.
8190. (The Commissioner.) Is the long and short of it this, that you did not get a reply, in your opinion? - In my opinion, no.
8191. You thought at first you had? - Yes, I thought at first I had.
8192. But you satisfied yourself that you were wrong? - That is so.
8193. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did you go down again to the captain? - No, he came to the bridge.
8194. Was there anyone else there except you and he? - Not on the bridge.
8195. Did you tell the captain about the Morsing? - Yes.
8196. What did he say? - He saw a light flickering himself, and he passed the remark to me. He said, "She is answering you." This was just before I sent the word "What?"
8197. After that was done, did you have any more conversation with the captain about the steamer? - When he came up on the bridge he said to me, "That does not look like a passenger steamer." I said, "It is, Sir. When she stopped her lights seemed to go out, and I suppose they have been put out for the night."
8198. (The Commissioner.) You said, "It is"? - Yes, my Lord.
8199. Now, what about putting out the lights? - I said she put out her lights as she stopped.
8200. (Mr. Rowlatt.) You have not told us about that yet, but before you come to that, was there anything said at that time about the passenger steamers that you were in communication with by wireless? - Nothing whatsoever.
8201. Was anything said at any time about the "Titanic"? - After the captain came on the bridge.
8202. Was that before the lights appeared to go out? - No, that was after.
8203. (The Commissioner.) You said something about the lights of the ship going out. When did they go out? - At 11.40.
8204. Was the Captain standing with you? - No, my Lord.
8205. At that time? - No, my Lord.
8206. Had he gone away? - He had not been on the bridge again since about 10.35.
8207. You went on the bridge after he had told you to signal with the Morse light? - Yes.
8208. And you did signal and then, as I understand, the Captain came on to the bridge? - Not until after I was Morsing. I was actually Morsing when he came up.
8209. Very well, he came up and he remarked to you, "She does not look like a passenger steamer"? - That is so.
8210. And you said, "It is"? - Yes.
8211. Now you said something about the lights going out; what was it? - Well he said to me, "It does not look like a passenger steamer." I said, "Well, she put her lights out at 11.40" - a few minutes ago that was.
8212. Then had she put her lights out before the captain came on the bridge? - Yes, my Lord.
8213. When did she put her lights out? - At 11.40.
8214. And you told the captain this, did you? - Yes.
8215. What did he say to that; did he say anything? - When I remarked about the passenger steamer he said: "The only passenger steamer near us is the 'Titanic.'"
8216. He said that, did he? - Yes, my Lord.
8217. (Mr. Rowlatt.) What makes you fix the time 11.40 for her lights going out? - Because that is the time we struck one bell to call the middle watch.
8218. Do you remember that bell was struck at that time? - Most certainly.
8219. Did the steamer continue on her course after that? - No, not so far as I could see.
8220. She stopped? - She stopped.
8221. Was that at the time when her lights appeared to go out? - That was at the time that her lights appeared to go out.
8222. Were the lights you saw on her port side or her starboard side? - Port side.
8223. I want to ask you a question. Supposing the steamer whose lights you saw turned two points to port at 11.40, would that account to you for her lights ceasing to be visible to you? - I quite think it would.
      The Commissioner: Mr. Rowlatt, at 11.40 the engines were stopped on the "Titanic."
      Mr. Rowlatt: Yes, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: I do not know whether that would cause a large number of lights to go out. They had a supplemental dynamo.
      Mr. Rowlatt: I think the only evidence about lights going out was that at some time after this the lights in a particular stokehold went out for a short time.
      The Commissioner: Oh, yes, I know that, but is it not the fact that at some time the lights in the ship, except the lights in the alleyways and the working parts of the ship did go out.
      Mr. Rowlatt: I do not remember that there is any evidence of that; I do not know how it would be. I do not know whether those who sit with you could indicate whether it would necessarily follow the engines stopping. I should imagine the engines stopping would not put the lights out.
      The Commissioner: Did that emergency apparatus working the electric light supply the whole ship with electric light?
      Mr. Rowlatt: I am not in a position to answer that question at the moment.
      The Commissioner: Did it, Mr. Laing?
      Mr. Laing: No, my Lord; the emergency dynamo does not supply the whole of the lights.
      The Commissioner: It supplies only, as I understand, the lights in what you may call the working parts of the ship - the alleyways, the engine rooms.
      Mr. Laing: And the deck cabins, I think.
      The Commissioner: The deck cabins?
      Mr. Laing: I think so.
      The Commissioner: I do not think so.
      Mr. Laing: Some of them, at any rate.
      Mr. Rowlatt: It can hardly be that when they stopped the ship going forward the ship is plunged in darkness automatically. It only means they stopped the engines which actuate the propellers.
      The Commissioner: At some time the light which was produced by the main engines did go out.

Page 188

Mr. Rowlatt: The lights went out in a stokehold. The Commissioner: I remember that. It came on again in a few minutes; in something like ten minutes it came back again. That was temporary. Mr. Rowlatt: I apprehend that the engine which produces the electric light is not the same engine as the engine which turns the propellers. The Commissioner: Which engine is it? Mr. Rowlatt: I cannot tell your Lordship at the moment. We will find out. The Commissioner: There is a separate engine which works what I call the emergency electric light machine, is not there? Mr. Rowlatt: There is, my Lord. The Commissioner: Now where is the engine that works the electric light when that emergency apparatus is not in use? Mr. Rowlatt: I cannot point to it at the moment - it is immediately abaft the turbine. The Commissioner: It is abaft the turbine? Mr. Rowlatt: Yes. The Commissioner: Very well. Now I understand it. Those engines would be going on just the same although the signal had come from the bridge to stop the main engines. Mr. Rowlatt: Yes. I have got an answer from the witness which may throw some light upon it. He said that, in his opinion, the turning of the ship - The Commissioner: I heard him. That would be when the order was given to change the direction. Mr. Rowlatt: Hard-a-starboard; and your Lordship remembers we had evidence that the ship did answer to the extent of two points at once. The Commissioner: Yes, she did answer her helm. Very well; two points you were saying? Mr. Rowlatt: Two points, my Lord. The man at the compass said she altered her course two points. The Commissioner: A change of two points to port would conceal the lights in the ship?

8224. (Mr. Rowlatt - To the Witness.) Did you say "would" or "might"? I do not want to put it too high? - In my own private opinion it would.
8225. You are speaking of deck lights? - Yes.
8226. Lights from the ports and windows? - Yes.
8227. Did you continue to see the masthead lights? - Yes.
8228. Did you see any navigation lights - sidelights? - I saw the red port light.
8229. (The Commissioner.) When did you see that? - As soon as her deck lights disappeared from my view.
8230. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did it strike you that going out of the glare of the other lights could show up the port light? Is that what you mean? - Yes, it would do.
8231. I mean, you are not suggesting that the port light was opened, having been shut in before? - Oh, no.
8232. I only want to understand. You cannot see a red light in the midst of the glare of the deck lights. That is what you mean? - Yes, because of the blaze of the white lights.
8233. Was that at 11.40? - Yes.
8234. It was after this that you had a conversation with the captain about the "Titanic"? - Yes.
8235. (The Commissioner.) Did the captain see these lights disappear? - Not to my knowledge, my Lord.
8236. Was he there when you saw them disappear? - Not on the bridge.
8237. Where was he - in the chart room? - I could not be certain where he was at that particular moment. When I spoke to him about the steamer coming up astern he was in the chart room.
8238. But at the time you saw the white lights of the steamer disappear he was not standing with you? - No, my Lord.
8239. It was after you had seen those white lights disappear that you had a conversation with him in which he said to you "the only passenger steamer is the 'Titanic'"? - That is so.
8240. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did you have any further conversation with the captain? - I did not.
8241. Did he stay on the bridge or go down again? - I do not think he would have been up there for more than three minutes at the outside with me.
8242. Then he went down again? - He did.
8243. Did you stop on the bridge? - I stopped on the bridge.
8244. Did you continue to observe the steamer? - After I had tried ineffectually to Morse her I did not pay any particular attention to her.
8245. Did you not notice her or did you notice her? - Oh, I noticed her certainly.
8246. Was she keeping her same position? - The same position, yes. We were swinging slowly to port, very slowly.
8247. Did you not take her bearing by the compass? - Not that steamer's bearing, no.
8248. She would appear to be coming round more towards your stern? - No, she would appear, as we were swinging, to be working towards our head.
8249. I thought you were swinging to port? - No, we were swinging to starboard - that is, to the right hand.
8250. How long did you stay on the bridge? - I stayed on the bridge till something between 12.10 and 12.15.
8251. And were you then relieved by Mr. Stone? - I was.
8252. (The Commissioner.) 12.15? - I could not be sure of the exact time.
8253. You were relieved by whom? - Mr. Stone.
8254. (Mr. Rowlatt.) The last witness we had yesterday, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Was he the first person that came on the bridge after the captain went down? - Was there anybody else there? I only want to know whether I have missed out anything? - No, there was nobody up on the bridge from the time that the captain left until Mr. Stone came up.
8255. Very well. Did you point out the steamer to Mr. Stone? - Yes.
8256. Did you tell him what you thought she was? - Yes.
8257. What did you say? - I pointed out the steamer to him and said, "She has been stopped since 11.40"; and I said, "She is a passenger steamer. At about the moment she stopped she put her lights out."
8258. (The Commissioner.) Wait a moment: "I pointed the steamer out to Stone and said, 'She is a passenger steamer. She put her light out.'" Do you mean by that she shut her light out? - She shut her lights out, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: "About 11.40."
8259. (Mr. Rowlatt.) To get it quite clear, at that time was it your impression she had put her lights out or shut them out? - At that time it was my impression she had shut them out, but I remember distinctly remarking to him that she had put them out.
8260. (The Commissioner.) That means that she had shut them out? - Yes.
8261. That is what you intended to convey? - Yes.
8262. That she had shut them out? - Yes.
8263. By changing her position? - By changing her position.
      The Commissioner: Is that right, Mr. Rowlatt; is that the answer you expected?
      Mr. Rowlatt: I was asking for information, my Lord, because I thought he had said before that he thought she had put her lights out because of the time of night.
      The Commissioner: I think he did say something of that sort.
      Mr. Rowlatt: I thought he did, and I asked for information to get it clear.
8264. (The Commissioner - To the Witness.) Did you say that you thought she had put her lights out because of the time of night? - I did say that, I think, my Lord.
8265. Then which is it to be, that she shut them out because she was changing her position, or that she had put them out because, in your opinion it was bed-time on board the ship? - Well, at the time the lights disappeared I thought in my own mind she had put them out because in the ships I was accustomed to before I joined this company it was the custom to put all the deck lights out, some at 11, some at 11.30, and some at midnight - all the deck lights except those absolutely necessary to show the way along the different decks. But when I saw the ice I came to the conclusion that she had starboarded to escape some ice.

Page 189

8266. You came to the conclusion then, did you, while you were on the bridge? - Yes, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: It comes to this, Mr. Rowlatt, at first he thought the lights had been put out, but when he reflected about it and observed she changed her position he thought she had shut her lights out, which is a different thing.
8267. (Mr. Rowlatt.) I do not know that he said he observed that she changed her position. (To the Witness.) This vessel was stopped at this time, was she not? - Yes.
      Mr. Rowlatt: He accepted my suggestion, my Lord, that if the vessel did change her course it might shut her lights out; it would shut her lights out.
      The Commissioner: I think you are right. What he said was the change of two points to port might, or, as he said, would, obscure the lights.
      Mr. Rowlatt: We know she changed two points - the vessel we are talking about changed two points.
      The Commissioner: Would a change of two points such as we know took place on the "Titanic" cause the two white masthead lights to alter their relative positions?
8268. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Yes. (To the Witness.) Would that be so? - Yes, it would, but I do not think at that distance the difference would be perceptible.
8269. It would bring them a little nearer together? - Yes, a little nearer together.
8270. Did you notice anything of that sort? - No, I did not.
8271. You went off the bridge? - Yes.
8272. Where did you go? - The Marconi house.
8273. Is the Marconi operator, Mr. Evans? - Yes.
8274. Did you find him there? - I did.
8275. Was he asleep? - He was asleep.
8276. He had gone to bed? - He had gone to bed, yes.
8277. Did you wake him up? - Yes.
8278. And have some conversation with him? - Yes.
8279. What passed? - The only thing I remember asking him was "What ships have you got, Sparks?"
8280. "Sparks"? - Yes.
8281. Is that his name? - No, it is the name he gets on the ship.
      The Commissioner: Seeing he is the operator, you know why he is called "Sparks."
8282. (Mr. Rowlatt.) You asked him what ships he had got. What did he say? - Only the "Titanic."
8283. Did you take his instruments and put them to your ears? - Yes.
8284. Could you read a message if you heard one? - If it is sent slowly - yes.
8285. Did you hear anything? - Nothing at all.
8286. How long did you listen? - I do not suppose it would be more than 15 seconds at the outside - well, 15 to 30 seconds. I did it almost mechanically.
8287. Did you do anything more before you turned in? - I may have said a few more words to him, but I have no recollection, but when I left his house I went straight to my cabin.
8288. And went to bed? - And went to bed.
8289. (The Commissioner.) What time was it you were talking to this man whom you call Sparks? - As near as I can judge it would be between 12.15 and 12.20.
8290. (Mr. Rowlatt.) What time did you turn out again in the morning? - About 6.40; I did not notice the time particularly.
8291. Were you woke up by the chief officer? - Yes.
8292. Who is that? - Mr. Stewart.
8293. Did he come to your room? - Yes.
8294. Did he tell you you were wanted on the bridge? - He did.
8295. (The Commissioner.) 6.40, was it? - About it.
8296. "Stewart, the chief officer, told me to come on the bridge"? - Yes.
8297. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did he say why? - Yes. He said, "The 'Titanic' has sunk, and the passengers are all in the lifeboats in the water ahead of us," or words to that effect.
8298. (The Commissioner.) The passengers were in the lifeboats ahead of you? - Yes.
8299. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did you see Mr. Stone? - I saw Mr. Stone almost immediately after the chief officer left my room.
8300. Where was he? - He was in his room.
8301. Is that close to yours? - Yes, two or three yards away, that is all; diagonally opposite.
8302. Do you mean you went out of your room before you dressed and saw him? - Yes, I jumped straight out of my bunk and I went to his room.
8303. Had he been on the watch from 12 to 4? - From 12 to 4.
8304. Now, did he tell you anything had happened in his watch? - Yes, he told me he had seen rockets.
8305. Did he say where the rockets were, or what sort of rockets, or anything of that sort? - As far as my recollection goes all he said was he had seen rockets in his watch, but at that time I did not pay particular attention to what he said, except that he had mentioned rockets.
8306. You do not remember more than that he mentioned rockets? - No, nothing more.
8307. You do not remember anything more passing with him at that time? - Well, I went to his room for the purpose of asking him if he was right about the "Titanic," and he said, "Yes, old chap, I saw rockets in my watch," and I went straight back to my cabin.
8308. (The Commissioner.) This conversation is important. (To the Witness.) When you went from your own cabin, before you dressed, to his cabin you naturally went to ask more about the "Titanic"? - Yes.
8309. You had just heard that she had gone down? - Yes.
8310. Now try to recollect what the conversation you had with Stone was? - I went only to his door; he was just getting dressed himself then, and I said, "Is this right, Mr. Stone, about the 'Titanic'?" I told him what the chief officer had said. He said, "Yes, that is right; hurry up and get dressed; we shall be wanted in the boats." He said, "I saw rockets in my watch."
8311. That conveys to me the notion that when he said he saw rockets in his watch he was referring to the rockets which he believed had come from the "Titanic." Did he give you that impression? - Well, it is rather difficult for me to say what impression I got then because I was rather excited, but I have told you what he said to me and what I said to him.
8312. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did you dress? - Yes.
8313. And go up on the bridge? - Yes, I went straight up on the bridge as soon as I was dressed.
8314. What did you find when you got there? - Ice all round us and icebergs.
8315. Was your ship under way? - The ship was under way then, and I could feel her bumping the ice, and I knew she had got a good speed on by that.
8316. She had not started when you went off your watch? - No.
8317. You did not know when she did start, because you were asleep? - I was asleep.
8318. She had started when you were called, had she? - She was under way then.
8319. Were your lifeboats being swung out? - Yes, the lifeboats were being swung out then.
8320. This was about half-past six, I suppose? - Well, about half-past six; I said 6.40 when I was first called.
8321. Now it is getting on for 7? - I suppose by the time I got on the bridge it would be 6.50; but you understand the time is only approximate.
8322. I quite understand that. Were there any other vessels in sight? - Yes.

Page 190

8323. What were they? - There was a four-masted steamer abeam on our port side.
8324. What steamer was that? - I did not know at the time, but I knew afterwards she was the "Carpathia."
8325. Abeam on your port side? - Abeam on our port side.
8326. In what direction were you going? - That I could not say.
8327. You did not notice? - No.
8328. How far off was she? - I should think she would be about 5 miles - possibly more, possibly less, but about five.
8329. Did you look at her with the glass? - I did.
8330. Who asked you to do that, anybody? - The captain.
8331. Did you make out anything about her? - After I had been looking at her I made out she had her house flag half-mast. She had a red funnel with a black top.
8332. (The Commissioner.) She had what half-mast? - Her house flag.
8333. What is that? - Her company's flag.
8334. Is there any significance in its being half-mast? - It is half-masted for death, my Lord.
8335. (Mr. Rowlatt.) That is how you understood it at the time? - That is what I understood it to mean.
8336. It was because of the disaster to the "Titanic" that this vessel was flying her house flag half-mast? - Yes.
8337. What did your vessel do then? - We continued on our course for a little time after I had told the captain she had a red funnel with a black top and the house flag half-masted, and the next thing that was done we starboarded.
8338. You made straight for her? - We made practically straight for her.
8339. Did you see any other vessel? - Yes, I saw two other vessels.
8340. At this time? - Yes. I fancy one of them was in sight at the same time as I noticed this four-master.
8341. (The Commissioner.) Do you know what they were? - I know what one of them was.
8342. What was it? - The "Mount Temple."
8343. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Where was she? - She was ahead, a little on our starboard side when I saw her first.
8344. Before you changed your course? - Before we headed for the "Carpathia."
8345. How far off was she, do you think? - Well, when I noticed her first - I had been paying particular attention to this other steamer - I should think she would be perhaps a mile and a half away from us.
8346. Nearer than the "Carpathia." - Much nearer than the "Carpathia."
8347. Was she stopped? - Stopped.
8348. In the ice? - In the ice.
8349. Did you see any other vessel? - I saw another vessel a little on our port bow; she was coming down almost end on.
8350. (The Commissioner.) You do not know her name? - I do not, but as far as I remember she had a black funnel. She was a small steamer.
8351. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did you reach the "Carpathia"? - We did.
8352. What time did you reach the "Carpathia"? - I think it would be about 7.45.
8353. Did she signal to you first? - Yes.
8354. That the "Titanic" had struck an iceberg? - Not at first. The first signal shown was fixed on the jumper stay. That is a signal that she wanted to semaphore.
8355. Did she signal to you by semaphore? - Yes.
8356. What did she tell you? - I think the first question she asked was had we any survivors on board, survivors or people, I do not know which she said.
8357. Did you answer by semaphore? - We did.
8358. You said, No? - We said, No.
8359. Did she say anything more? - Yes; I think the next thing which happened was, I fancy, we asked him if we could be of any assistance, and he said, No.
8360. Were you personally signaling? - No, I was not, but I was reading it.
8361. Anything more - any more messages? - That passed between us? - Yes.
8362. (The Commissioner.) Tell us shortly? - He told us the "Titanic" had struck an iceberg at 12 o'clock and had sunk at 3, and they had 800 or 700 - I am not sure which - people on board, including Mr. Bruce Ismay. When we asked him if we could be of any assistance they said, no. And then Captain Lord suggested that we should search down to leeward.
8363. Your captain? - Yes.
8364. Did you search to leeward? - Yes.
8365. Did you find anything? - Only boats and wreckage.
8366. Empty boats? - Boats with no people in.
8367. At about 9 a.m. did the "Carpathia" steam off? - Yes, almost exactly at 9 a.m., because I heard her bell strike.
8368. Did you search longer? - Yes, we searched longer.
8369. Till about 10.40? - Ten-forty exactly. That is when we resumed our course.
8370. After that did you see much more ice? - After 10.40?
8371. Yes? - Yes, we saw a lot of ice; we passed a big field; we passed through a particularly long field about half a mile wide, and we had to absolutely force our way through it.
8372. Was that further south than the wreckage you had seen from the "Titanic"? - I think it was about the same latitude, roughly, within a mile or so. But I never said we saw the "Titanic"; I said we saw the wreckage.
8373. Yes, and we assume the wreckage which you saw was the "Titanic" wreckage - that is what I meant? - Yes.
8374. Do you know whether you carry rockets on your ship? - Yes.
8375. What rockets do you carry? - Distress rockets.
8376. What are they? - Well, I have never seen one fired, so I could not say definitely.
8377. You have never seen one fired? - No.
8378. Is there any inscription on them? - I have not seen a rocket itself, either.
8379. You only know they are there? - I only know they are there.
8380. If you were in distress you would simply send up one of these rockets? - Yes.
8381. And then you would find out for the first time what it looked like? - In my own particular case I should.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

8382. At the time you left the bridge was it a clear night? - Quite clear.
8383. Was it so clear that your captain could have picked his way, even through that ice-field to the ship which you saw? - He could have picked his way through there, but it certainly would not have been a particularly safe proceeding. There is no doubt he could have done it.
8384. You said when you first saw the ship she appeared to be about 10 miles from you? - Ten to twelve, I said.
8385. When she came to a stop what was the distance? - Well, I should think about five to seven miles.
8386. In the relative positions of your ship and this ship which you saw, would any person from her see your starboard light and one masthead light? - When she first stopped he could not have seen it before I left the bridge.
8387. In the position to which you had swung round, just at the time you were leaving the bridge, if any person from that ship or from a boat lower down saw you, would they have seen the light you were showing then, your red starboard light? - It is a green light.

Page 191

8388. I beg your pardon - your green light? - Yes.
8389. And the white masthead light? - They would have been able to have seen it from the ship undoubtedly, but as to a boat I am rather doubtful.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

8390. Your captain stopped because of the ice-field? - Yes.
8391. That is because he considered it exceedingly dangerous? - That is so; at least, I suppose that is what he concluded.
8392. When you saw this steamer, at any time had you any doubt about its being a passenger steamer? - No doubt whatsoever.
8393. And you for your part never considered it was a tramp steamer? - No, I did not.
8394. And you told the captain, you have told us, that you believed it was a passenger steamer? - Yes, I told the captain that.
8395. And that you could see the two masthead lights? - I do not think I told him that I could see two masthead lights.
      Mr. Harbinson: I think you told the Court here today -
      The Commissioner: Do not take him all through the whole thing again. I have heard the whole of this. It does not help us to have it all over again.
8396. (Mr. Harbinson.) I do not intend to take him through it all, my Lord. (To the Witness.) You did see two masthead lights? - Yes, I did see two masthead lights.
8397. What did the captain say when you told him it was a passenger steamer? - Do you remember? - Yes, I do. He said to me, "The only passenger steamer near us is the 'Titanic.'"
      The Commissioner: We have got it, you know. He said, "The only passenger steamer about here is the 'Titanic.'"
8398. (Mr. Harbinson.) The question I propose to follow that up with is this: Did the captain make any observation as to the distance at that time the "Titanic" should be away? Did the captain say at what distance the "Titanic" would be away at that time? - No.
8399. He said nothing? - Nothing.
8400. Did you know about what distance the "Titanic" should be away? - I had no idea.
8401. When you left the bridge you went to the Marconi operator's house? - Yes.
8402. And he told you the only steamer he had got was the "Titanic"? - Yes.
8403. Did he tell you whether or not he had had any message from the "Titanic"? - No, he did not mention about any message at all.
8404. Or say what distance the "Titanic" would be away? - No, he did not know; he could not say.
8405. What time that night had the Marconi operator gone to bed? - That I cannot say, but it was some time previous to 12.15 or 12.20. That is all I know about it.
8406. If the Marconi operator had not been in bed, but up and in charge of his instrument, would he have been likely to hear the messages sent out by the "Titanic"? - As far as I know.
      The Commissioner: You had better ask the Marconi man when he comes.

Examined by Mr. LAING.

8407. Two questions. Do you carry two masthead lights? - Yes.
8408. How many masts have you got? - Four masts.
8409. Where do you keep the after masthead light? - On the mainmast.
8410. And the forward one? - On the foremast.
8411. What sort of span is there between the two? - Longitudinally?
8412. Yes, is it short or long? That is all I want to know? - The distance roughly would be about 70 feet.

Examined by Mr. HOLMES.

8413. When you were searching for the wreckage, what boats exactly was it you saw in the water? - We saw the "Titanic" lifeboats.
8414. How many? - I think there were 7.
8415. Would that be boats cut adrift? - They were left by the "Carpathia."
8416. How many officers had you on the "Californian"? - Three.
8417. What watches did you keep? - The ordinary sea watches; 4 on and 8 off.
8418. All through the day? - All through the day and night.
8419. What is the average range of an ordinary ship's sidelight? - Two miles.
8420. And the masthead light? - Five miles; that is the distance they are supposed to show.
8421. They do show a little further on a clear night? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. CLEMENT EDWARDS.

8422. When you first went on deck that evening with the officer at about 10 minutes to 7, how long had your ship been under way at that time? - I do not know.
8423. Was she under way when you were wakened? - She was under way then, yes.
8424. You do not know at all what time? - No.
      The Commissioner: I think we have had it in evidence.
      Mr. Clement Edwards: There was a statement by the captain, my Lord.
      Did you get good sights? - Perfectly good sights.
      Mr. Clement Edwards: Six o'clock, my Lord; it is in his logbook.

Examined by Mr. ROBERTSON DUNLOP.

8425. In the logbook it is stated that when you stopped your ship in the ice the position of the ship was 42º 5' N. and longitude 50° 7' W. Is that accurate? - Well, it is bound to be accurate if the captain put it in.
      The Solicitor-General: This witness would not know, would he?
8426. (Mr. Robertson Dunlop.) You were on duty from 10.20 when you started until 12.15? - Yes.
8427. The position of your vessel had been signaled to the "Titanic" at 6.30. Did you know that? - No.
8428. Did you take part in ascertaining the position of your ship at noon on the 15th? - Yes.
8429. Did you get good sights? - Perfectly good sights.
8430. And the position which you found was 41º 33' N.; and the longitude, do you remember what it was? - No.
8431. 50° 9' W. Do you know how far it was you had steamed between noon and the time you left the wreckage? - On the Sunday or Monday?
8432. On the 15th, on the Monday. You take your position at noon on the Monday shortly after leaving the wreckage, and I want you to help me to fix the position of this wreckage? - In reference to our noon position?

Page 192

8433. Yes; you have the noon position. How far do you think you had traveled from the time that you got on your way after searching round the wreckage until your noon position? Do you think it would be about five miles? - No, more than that; about 11. That is in distance.
8434. You would be in the same latitude then as the wreckage was found? - That I could not say.
8435. Do you know your course? - At 10.30 we altered the course to N 60° W by compass.
8436. If the "Titanic" was in latitude 41° 33', which is the position she has given, and the position in which the wreckage was found, and your vessel was, as stated in the log, in latitude 42° 5', the "Titanic" would be some 33 miles to the southward of the position where you were lying stopped? - If she stopped in 41° 33' and we were in 42° 5.'
8437. Yes? - Yes, about 30 miles.
8438. And if the "Titanic" was 30 miles to the southward of the position where you were stopped, I do not suppose you could see any navigation lights at that distance? - No, none whatsoever.
8439. Nor indeed any rockets at that distance? - I could not say about rockets, but I should not think it was likely.
8440. If this vessel which you did see was only some 4 or 5 miles to the southward of you, do you think she could have been the "Titanic"?
8441. (The Commissioner.) That is a question I want this witness to answer. (To the Witness.) Speaking as an experienced seaman and knowing what you do know now, do you think that steamer that you know was throwing up rockets, and that you say was a passenger steamer, was the "Titanic"? - Do I think it?
8442. Yes? - From what I have heard subsequently?
8443. Yes? - Most decidedly I do, but I do not put myself as being an experienced man.
8444. But that is your opinion as far as your experience goes? - Yes it is my Lord.
      Mr. Robertson Dunlop: That would indicate that the "Titanic" was only 4 or 5 miles to the southward of the position in which you were when stopped.
      The Commissioner: If his judgment on the matter is true it shows that those figures, latitudes and longitudes that you are referring to are not accurate. That is all it shows.
      Mr. Robertson Dunlop: The accuracy we will deal with, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: I mean to say, if what he says is right, it follows that the figures must be wrong.
8445. (Mr. Robertson Dunlop.) You will appreciate, Mr. Groves, that if the latitudes are right it follows that your opinion must be wrong? - If the latitudes are right, then of course I am wrong.
8446. If the latitude of your ship and that of the "Titanic" are anything approximately right, it follows that the vessel which you saw could not have been the "Titanic"? - Certainly not.
8447. Were the two masthead lights which you saw wide apart indicating a long ship? - They did not look particularly wide apart.
8448. Did they indicate to you a long ship? - Well, I can form no judgment as to her length. She was coming up obliquely to us.
8449. And at that distance at which you saw her, it would be difficult to estimate the height of those lights? - Oh, quite difficult.
8450. Then what was there in the appearance of those two masthead lights to indicate that this vessel was the "Titanic"? - Nothing in the appearance of the masthead lights at all.
8451. What, apart from the masthead lights, was there to indicate to you that this was a large passenger steamer? - The number of deck lights she was showing.
8452. When you saw these deck lights, was the vessel approaching you obliquely? - Obliquely, yes.
8453. So that the deck lights would not indicate to you the probable length of the steamer showing them? - Well, no.
8454. They would be all bunched up? - They would be bunched up together.
8455. That being so, how did those deck lights communicate to you that this was a large passenger steamer? - Well, as I said before, by the number of her lights; there was such a glare from them.
8456. You mean from the brilliance of the lights? - Yes, from the brilliance of the lights.
8457. But I suppose a small passenger steamer might have brilliant light? - She would have brilliant light, but they would not show the light I saw from this steamer.
      The Commissioner: Has any small passenger steamer been heard of in this locality at this time?
8458. (Mr. Robertson Dunlop.) You have told us that you did see on the following morning a steamer whose name you do not know? - A small steamer, yes.
8459. Was she a passenger steamer? - That I could not say.
8460. Have you tried to find out her name? - No, I have not; I took no further interest in her.
8461. (The Commissioner.) What size boat was she? - I never saw her broadside; I only saw her end-on.
8462. You told me it was a very small boat? - It was a small boat. I judged that from her end-on view.
8463. Was it much smaller than the boat the lights of which you had seen the night before? - I should judge so.
8464. (Mr. Robertson Dunlop.) Was she a vessel about your own size? - No, in my opinion she was considerably smaller.
8465. Before the vessel which you saw stopped, on what course did she seem to you to be steering? - Do you mean the steamer I had seen at 11.40?
8466. Yes, before she stopped at 11.40 you had had her under observation for some time, noticing her movements? - Yes, but I took no notice of the course she was making except that she was coming up obliquely to us.
8467. Was she making to the westward or to the eastward? - She would be bound to be going to westward.
8468. Was she? - She was bound to.
8469. Did you see her going to westward? - Well, I saw her red light.
8470. If she was going to the westward and was to the southward of you, you ought to have seen her green light? - Not necessarily.
8471. Just follow me for a moment. She is coming up on your starboard quarter, you told us? - On our starboard quarter.
8472. Heading to the westward? - I did not say she was heading to the westward.
8473. Proceeding to the westward? - Yes.
8474. And she is to the southward of you? - She is to the southward of us.
8475. Then the side nearest to you must have been her starboard side, must it not? - Not necessarily. If she is going anything from N. to W. you would see her port side. At the time I left the bridge we were heading E.N.E. by compass.
8476. Never mind about your heading. I am only dealing with her bearings. She is bearing S.S.E. of you - south-easterly? - About south.
8477. She is south of you and apparently proceeding to the westward? - Yes, some course to the westward.
8478. Does it follow from that that the side which she was showing to you at that time must have been her starboard side? - No it does not follow at all. If she is steering a direct west course, yes.
8479. Did you see her green light at all? - Never.
8480. When the captain came up at 11.30 and you reported her to the captain, what lights was she then showing? - The captain did not come up at 11.30.

Page 193

8481. When did he come up? - About 11.45 on to the bridge.
8482. You reported to the captain at 11.30? - About 11.30.
8483. And then the captain at some time looked at her and said, "That does not look like a passenger steamer"? - That was about 11.45 on the bridge.
8484. What lights was she then showing? - Two masthead lights and a sidelight, and a few minor lights.
8485. Some deck lights? - A few deck light, yes; that is what I could see.
8486. Is that before or after you say the deck lights had gone out? - That was after the deck lights went out.
8487. What were those deck lights that you saw when the captain came on the bridge? - I do not think that then I could see more than 3 or 4.
8488. Had those lights gone out or had they come into view again after going? - I do not quite follow.
8489. You have told us the deck lights had gone out? - Yes; when I say that the deck lights had gone out I mean that they disappeared from my view.
8490. They disappeared from your view, and then apparently some of them again came into view? - Yes.
8491. Was that indicating that the vessel was swinging? - Well, it might do.
8492. Turning her head in the ice as you were? - It might do.
8493. When you turned into your berth that night about 12.30 did you think there was any vessel in distress? - No.
8494. (The Commissioner.) You had seen no rockets? - I had seen no rockets, my Lord.
8495. And nothing in the appearance of the lights which you say, and the going out of those lights which you have described, led you to think that vessel was in any way in distress? - Nothing whatsoever.
8496. But was, like yourselves, stopped in the ice? - That is so.
8497. And it was not until the next morning that you heard anything had happened? - Not until next morning.
8498. When did you go on watch? - At 8 o'clock.
8499. The captain states that he was on the bridge at 11 o'clock and was there till 11.30? - I say he was not.
8500. You say he was not? - Most emphatically.
8501. Most emphatically? - Most emphatically.
8502. There must be a mistake somewhere? - Well, it naturally follows, does it not?

Re-examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL.

8503. You were the officer of the watch, as I understand, from 8 p.m. till midnight. Would you then be keeping the scrap log? - I was keeping the scrap log.
8504. Your ship was under way from 8 o'clock until about 20 past 10 of that watch, was she not? - Yes.
8505. And then about 20 past 10 she stopped, and she was stopped for the rest of the watch? - Yes.
8506. Who would make a dead reckoning and find out where she was at 10.20? - Well, the captain; he would work it. I never work it.
8507. Is the scrap log here? - No, it is not kept.
8508. (The Commissioner.) Is it destroyed from time to time? - It is destroyed from time to time. There is one log always kept, of course, but the scrap log is destroyed from time to time.
8509. (The Solicitor-General.) I want to know a little about this. Before the scrap log is destroyed in what sort of a book is it kept? - It is copied from the scrap log into the printed log.
8510. Into this fair copy - this book which I have here? - Yes.
8511. Is the scrap log kept in a book? - Yes.
8512. It is not kept on loose sheets of paper? - No, in a book.
      The Commissioner: Just follow that up.
8513. (The Solicitor-General.) I am going to, my Lord, if I may. (To the Witness.) And this book in which you kept the scrap log, for how many days, or weeks, or months is the book good for? - It varies.
8514. Is it as big a book as this - as your official log? - Oh, no; it is a thinner book.
8515. How much thinner? How many weeks will it take? - It is my duty to rule that book up myself. It all depends. If we want a piece of paper on the bridge we occasionally tear a piece out of it; and whenever we take occasional observations we work them on the back.
8516. I want you to give me an idea how big a book is the book in which the scrap log is kept? - I do not think it would take more than 25 days.
8517. (The Commissioner.) How long had you been out? - We left London on the 5th April in the early morning - Good Friday.
8518. Did you leave with a new scrap logbook? - We always have several of them on the ship; it is a cargo book we have.
8519. There is only one in use? - Yes.
8520. How long had this logbook been in use? - I think I must have started it when we left London.
8521. (The Solicitor-General.) That would be April 5th? - Yes.
8522. And you reached Boston, when? - On April 19th, I think it was.
8523. And you just made the return journey from Boston here? - No, Boston to Liverpool.
8524. That is what I mean. You think you started your scrap log on April 5th, and you went across the Atlantic to Boston; that did not use up your scrap logbook, did it? - No, certainly not.
8525. Then did you use the same scrap logbook for the return voyage from Boston to Liverpool? - As far as my recollection carries me we started it again when we left Boston, but I have a recollection of ruling up another one after leaving Boston.
8526. On the voyage back from America to Europe? - Yes.
8527. You have a recollection of that. But you see, if this scrap logbook was newly started when you left on April 5th, it would not be used up in the course of your return voyage from America to England? - Not solely for that voyage, but I have told you we used a back page for occasional observations, or if we wanted a piece of paper to write any note on or anything like that.
8528. Who told you to rule out a new scrap logbook on the voyage back from Boston to Liverpool? - I did it myself; nobody told me to.
8529. (The Commissioner.) What does "rule out" mean? - Well, rule the pages in the forms required. First of all, we put "Hours" -
      The Commissioner: Yes, I see what you mean.
8530. (The Solicitor-General.) Do you suggest that the old scrap log had at that time been filled to the last page? - When I started this new book we had evidently finished the old one, otherwise I should not have started it.
8531. Where is that old one? - The old one? The one for the voyage out?
8532. Yes, the one which you were partly using for the return voyage? - I expect it was thrown away.
8533. Where was it thrown away to? - I expect it went over the side.
8534. Did you throw it over the side? - I did not.

Page 194

8535. (The Commissioner.) Who did? - I do not know; it was only my suggestion that it was thrown over.
8536. (The Solicitor-General.) You did not see it thrown over? - No.
8537. The captain might be able to tell us. You would know this book was the book which contained the real record for the 14th April? - Of course I knew that.
8538. And by that time, of course, you, and others on your ship, knew quite well there was a very serious Enquiry being made as to the position of your ship and what she was doing on the 14th April? - Certainly.
8539. And by that time you knew that there was some discussion as to whether the ship which you had seen was the "Titanic" or some other ship? - That was a discussion amongst ourselves.
8540. And you knew there was a discussion in America and the newspapers? - I did not know that our ship had been mentioned in the papers until we got to Boston.
8541. This was after you left Boston, you see? - Yes, certainly, I knew then.
8542. You cannot tell us whether it was destroyed or not? - No, I cannot say definitely, certainly not.
8543. (The Commissioner.) Had you a log slate? - No, my Lord.
8544. You had nothing but this book? - Only the book. Log slates are out of date now, my Lord.
8545. When did you write up the logbook - I do not mean the scrap logbook, but the logbook. When did you write it up? - I do not write it up at all.
8546. When was it written up on board your steamer? - That I cannot say. The chief officer writes that up.
8547. (The Solicitor-General.) The chief officer? - Yes.
8548. (The Commissioner.) Would he write it up every day or once every two days? - I fancy he writes it up every day.
8549. (The Solicitor-General.) That would be Mr. Stewart? - Yes.
8550. I do not know whether your recollection will enable you to tell me, but I had better ask you. As you were making entries in the scrap logbook from 8 to 12 that night, do you know whether you made any entry as to any ship that you saw? - No, no entry whatsoever relating to any ship.
8551. You had gone off watch before there was any question of rockets? - Yes.
8552. You must have seen the scrap logbook the next day when you came on duty; do you know whether it contains any entry of rockets being seen? - I saw none myself.
8553. (The Commissioner.) Did you look to see if there was any reference as to rockets? - No my Lord, I did not.
      The Commissioner: Then you must be careful how you answer.
8554. (The Solicitor-General.) You had come on duty, in one of the watches; would you come up at 4 o'clock in the morning? - No, about 6.50. That is on the Monday morning.
8555. That is what I mean. Then when would you come on duty and be the officer on the watch and have to keep the scrap log? - It is my duty between 8 and 12 under ordinary conditions.
8556. By that time you had heard the news about the "Titanic"? - Yes.
8557. Knowing that, did not you look back in the scrap log and see what entries had been made by your colleague between midnight and 4 a.m.? - No, I did not.
8558. It would be on the very next page, would it not? You turn over the page I suppose when you get to midnight? - Yes, we finish a page when we get to midnight.
8559. You would have only to turn back one page and see the record made by the officer of the watch from midnight to 4 a.m. as to what he had seen? - Yes.
8560. And you did not do it? - No, I did not do it.
      The Solicitor-General: We had better get the chief officer I suppose.
8561. (The Commissioner.) Yes. If you had been on the bridge instead of from 8 to half-past 12, from 12 to 4, and had been keeping the scrap logbook and had seen a succession of white rockets with stars going up from this vessel which you speak of or from the direction of this vessel, would you in the ordinary course of things have made a record of the fact in your scrap log? - Most decidedly, that is what the logbook is for.
8562. So I should have thought. Then it would have been the business of the man who had charge of this book to record those facts? - I think so, my Lord.
8563. Who was he? - Mr. Stone was on watch.
8564. And, therefore, if Mr. Stone did what you think was his duty, this scrap logbook which was thrown away, or which, at all events, cannot be found, would contain a record of these rockets having been seen? - Yes, my Lord, but it is not my duty to criticise a senior officer, though.
      The Commissioner: I am asking what is the ordinary practice. Do you want any of the other officers back, Mr. Solicitor?
      The Solicitor-General: I have Mr. Stewart here, who is the chief officer, and the captain is here also.
      The Commissioner: You must exercise your own discretion.
      The Solicitor-General: I think I will call Mr. Stewart now.

(The Witness withdrew.)

GEORGE FREDRICK STEWART, Sworn.

Examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL.

8565. Your name is George Frederick Stewart? - Yes.
8566. Were you the chief officer on board the "Californian"? - Yes.
8567. And on Sunday, 14th April, at what time did you go off watch? - Eight o'clock.
8568. Eight o'clock in the evening? - Yes.
8569. Then, as we have heard, the third officer came on duty at 8 and took the 8 to 12 watch? - Yes.
8570. I think you turned in, did you not? - Yes, I turned in about half-past 9.
8571. Then your next turn of duty would come at 4 o'clock in the morning? - Yes.
8572. Did you go on duty at 4? - Yes.
8573. On the Monday morning? - Yes.
8574. Relieving Mr. Stone? - Yes.
8575. Did you find that your ship was stopped? - Yes.
8576. And did Mr. Stone report to you what had happened on his watch? - Yes, he told me very briefly.
8577. What did he tell you? - He told me he had seen a ship four or five miles off when he went on deck at 12 o'clock, and at 1 o'clock he had seen some rockets.
8578. Did not he say how many? - No, he did not say.
8579. Did not he say what sort of rockets? - I asked him; he said they were white rockets.
8580. This ship would have been in the ice or near the ice too? - Yes.

Page 195

8581. Did you realise that your ship had stopped because the ice was dangerous? - Well, it was not safe to go on at nighttime.
8582. When Mr. Stone told you that he had seen a ship some miles off which had been throwing up rockets, what did you suppose the rockets must have been for? - I asked him what he did. He said the moment she started firing the rockets she started to steam away.
8583. (The Commissioner.) What steamed away? - The ship that was firing the rockets.
8584. Fired the rockets and then started to steam away? - Yes.
8585. (The Solicitor-General.) Did he tell you that five rockets had been observed, and then three more? - I do not think he did.
8586. Just to return to the question I put to you - because you have not quite answered it. I ask you, as an experienced officer, when you were told this ship which was in the ice had been throwing up white rockets at night, what did you suppose she was throwing up her rockets for? - I thought what had really happened was she had seen a ship firing rockets to the southward, and was replying to them.
8587. (The Commissioner.) Will you repeat that to me? What did you think? - I thought the ship he saw firing rockets was replying to some other ship to the southward.
8588. Replying? Do you reply to another ship by firing rockets? - Well, my Lord, he told me he had called him up repeatedly by the Morse lamp and the ship did not answer.
8589. But I do not understand this replying by means of rockets. Did you ever hear of such a thing? - Well, I never heard of such a thing, but he might have replied to let them know he had seen them.
      The Commissioner: You are supposing now something you have never heard of happening before.
8590. (The Solicitor-General.) Let me follow. Did it not enter your head when you heard this, that those might be distress signals? - Yes.
8591. It did? - Yes.
8592. What made you think they might be distress signals? - Because they were rockets.
8593. They were from the description just what you would expect if they were distress signals? - They were white rockets.
8594. And did Mr. Stone tell you he had reported to the captain? - He told me he had reported to the captain, yes.
8595. At 4 o'clock - of course it was still dark - did you take the glasses and scan the surrounding water? - Yes.
8596. Did you see anything? - Yes, I saw a steamer to the southward.
8597. At 4 o'clock in the morning? - Yes.
8598. What was it you saw at 4 o'clock in the morning? - I saw two white masthead lights and a few lights amidships.
8599. Did you ask Mr. Stone whether this steamer you saw then was the one he had seen? - Yes.
8600. You did? - Yes, I did, and he said he had not seen that steamer before.
8601. So that, according to him, it was not the same steamer? - Well, he did not know; he said he had never seen that steamer till I pointed it out to him.
8602. Now, just think a moment. Did not you ask Stone if he had thought that was the ship that had fired the rockets? - Yes, I believe I did.
8603. You think you did? - Yes.
8604. You gave a statement, you may recollect, to the Receiver of Wrecks? - Yes.
8605. And when you asked Mr. Stone that question what did he say in reply? - He said, "I do not know; I do not think I have seen that steamer before."
8606. I will put this to you. Is not this right? Did not you say, "I asked Stone if he thought this was the ship that had fired rockets, and he said" - that is, Stone said - "he did not think it was." Is that right? - I do not know.
8607. (The Commissioner.) Did you read the statement that you signed? - Yes.
8608. Just look at that paper and read from it what it was you signed. (A document was handed to the Witness.) Is that the paper you signed?
8609. (The Solicitor-General.) Is that your signature at the end? - Yes.
8610. Will you kindly read what you will find at the back of the first page and then on the top of the second page?
      The Commissioner: Read it out.
8611. (The Solicitor-General.) "This was 4 a.m." Do you see that? - "He called the captain, and the latter asked him whether they were company's signals. Stone replied he did not know. I asked him during our own talk were they distress signals, and he said he did not think they were. He said he had informed the captain on three occasions at intervals."
      Go on. What I asked you to do was to read at the bottom of the page and the top of the next.
      The Commissioner: Mark it with a pencil.
      The Solicitor-General: Yes, I will. (To the Witness.) I beg your pardon. I was pointing to the wrong place. I think I have marked it now for you in the margin with pencil. (handing the document to the Witness.)
8612. (The Commissioner.) Now read it aloud.
      The Witness: "I looked to the southward and saw a light. On looking through the glass I saw two masthead lights and a lot of lights amidships, apparently a four-masted steamer. This was 4 a.m. I asked Stone if he thought this was the ship he had seen, and he said he did not think it was."
8613. The Solicitor-General: He told you he did not think the ship you had pointed out was the ship that had fired the rockets? - Yes, he did not think it was.
8614. Did you call the captain a little later on? - Yes.
8615. About what time? - About 4.30.
8616. When you called the captain did you tell him what Stone said he had seen? - I told him that the second mate told me he had seen rockets in the middle watch.
8617. Not a rocket, but rockets? - Rockets.
8618. What did the captain say to you when you said that? - He said: "Oh, yes; I know."
8619. (The Commissioner.) Is that all he said? - He said. "Yes, I know, he has been telling me."
8620. (The Solicitor-General.) That was all he said? - That is all he said.
8621. Did the captain come on the bridge? - At once.
8622. You were still stopped. Did you hear from him what his plans were? - He talked about the possibility of going through the ice and proceeding on our voyage.
8623. Did not you ask him whether he was not going to see what that ship was that had thrown up rockets? - Yes, after he had spoken about proceeding on the voyage I asked him if he was going to the southward to see what that ship was.
8624. When you asked him that, was the ship you referred to a ship that you thought had been in distress? - Yes.
8625. When you asked him that, what did he say? - He said, "No, I do not think so; she is not making any signals now."
8626. What time was it that this happened? - Half-past four.
8627. When he came on the bridge could you see the ship that you had pointed out? - Yes.
8628. That is the ship that Mr. Stone said he did not think was the ship that had thrown up the signals? - Yes.
8629. Did you and the captain look at this other ship together? - Yes.
8630. Did you tell the Captain that Mr. Stone, who had been on watch, thought this was not the ship that had thrown up the signals? - No.
8631. You did not? - No.
8632. Did the Captain say this: "No, she looks all right; she is not making any signals now"? - Yes, I believe those were his exact words.

Page 196

8633. When the Captain said: "She looks all right," what was he referring to? - She just looked like an ordinary steamer stopped.
8634. The Captain was referring to the vessel you had picked up? - Yes.
8635. Did not you tell the Captain that according to Mr. Stone, who had been on watch, that was not the steamer that had thrown up the rockets? - No.
8636. You did not? - No.
8637. Had you forgotten it? - I do not know; I did not tell him that.
8638. If Mr. Stone, who was on the watch when it happened, was right, there was no comfort to be got from the fact that that steamer looked all right? - He told me the steamer that had fired rockets had steamed away to the south-west, and he last saw her about two o'clock, just faintly with glasses; she steamed away from him.
8639. Then did you suppose that the steamer which you could see at 4.30 was the same steamer? - I thought she might have drifted back - that she had found that she could not get through the ice.
8640. (The Commissioner.) Now, think about what you are saying. Do you want me to understand that you thought it was possible that the ship which had steamed away after throwing up the rockets had drifted back and was there before your eyes?
      The Solicitor-General: At half-past four?
8641. (The Commissioner.) In the morning? Do you want me to believe that?
      The Witness: I thought she might have come back, or she might have known something about the other ship.
8642. Have you ever made that suggestion to a living soul until now? - I do not believe so.
8643. It comes out for the first time in the last minute? - I thought all the time that that ship had something to do with it or knew something about it.
8644. But you never told anybody so until now? - No.
8645. (The Solicitor-General.) On that day you thought she might have drifted back? - Or go back.
8646. Did you say drifted? - Yes, but I did not mean it in that sense of the word.
8647. You did not mean drifted back? - No.
8648. (The Commissioner.) What did you mean? - That she had come back.
8649. She had steamed back? - Yes.
8650. (The Solicitor-General.) Anyhow, you and the Captain at half-past four in the morning were talking about this steamer as though it was this steamer which had thrown up the signals, although the officer of the watch who had seen the signals told you it was not? - Yes.
8651. And you never told the Captain of that mistake? - No.
8652. (The Commissioner.) Did you ever say to Stone afterwards, "Why, that is the steamer of last night, and it has drifted back"? - No.
8653. (The Solicitor-General.) It was a little later than that that your wireless people heard that the "Titanic" had sunk? - Yes.
8654. When you heard that did it occur to you that the steamer that had been sending up distress rockets might have been the "Titanic"? - Not the steamer we saw.
8655. That is not what I asked you. I will put the question again, if I may. When you heard that the "Titanic" had sunk that night, did it occur to you that that steamer which you had heard had been sending up rockets, might have been the "Titanic"?
8656. (The Commissioner.) Now, come; answer that question? - No, I did not think it could have been the "Titanic."
8657. (The Solicitor-General.) Have you ever ascertained what the steamer was which was sending up rockets, if it was not the "Titanic"? - No.
8658. It is your business to write up the logbook from the scrap log? - Yes.
8659. Who keeps the scrap logbook, and where is it kept? - It is just kept for the day, that is all.
8660. I am not sure that I understand. You do not mean there is a new scrap logbook for every day? - It is all bits that are torn out and destroyed. The logbook is written up every day and the officer signs it.
8661. Do you mean that at the end of the day when you have written up your log from the scrap logbook, you tear out the page of the scrap logbook and destroy it? - Yes.
8662. (The Commissioner.) Day by day? - Yes.
8663. (The Solicitor-General.) Are you quite sure of that? - Yes.
8664. That was the practice, was it, on this ship? - Yes.
8665. Now let me tell you at once why I press you about this. While you have been out of this room we have had in that box the Third Officer, and I have been asking the Third Officer why he did not turn back in the scrap logbook and read what was written for the previous day. He did not suggest to me that it would probably be torn out you know. Now do you suggest it is torn out day by day? - Yes.
8666. Always? - Always.
8667. (The Commissioner.) Is it a book with a back to it? - No, it is only a small book with a paper back.
8668. Never mind; it is a book with a back to it. Is it the size of a penny memorandum book? - It is about that wide and that long.(demonstrating.)
8669. It is a sort of diary - something like a diary? - Yes.
8670. And it is bound in a paper cover? - Yes.
8671. So that if you wanted to do so you would have to tear out each page and throw it away? - Yes, cut it out with a knife about a quarter of an inch from where the book is sewn into the cover.
8672. (The Solicitor-General.) Why do you do that? - Because we only keep the one log.
8673. But why? - By the company's instructions.
8674. (The Commissioner.) I never heard of this. Are you instructed by your owners to destroy the scrap log as the voyage goes along? - Yes, my Lord.
8675. (The Solicitor-General.) Day by day? - Yes.
8676. (The Commissioner.) Does your steamer belong to the same company that practically owns the "Titanic"? - We belong to the Leyland Line, my Lord.
8677. Yes, I know, but is that part and parcel of the International Marine? - A part of it, my Lord.
8678. That is to say, it belongs to the same company that the "Titanic" belonged to? - I cannot say as to that, my Lord.
8679. I daresay you do not understand the arrangements between them, but you are part and parcel of the International Marine? - Yes.
8680. And the "Titanic" was part and parcel of the International Marine? - Yes, my Lord.
8681. Am I to understand that those instructions are given to all the steamers controlled by that company, that is to say, to the White Star, the Leyland Line, and others? - I cannot say that, my Lord.
8682. (The Solicitor-General.) You are speaking of your own steamer? - Yes.
8683. Are those instructions you speak of to be found in any book? - Yes.
8684. They are, are they? - Yes.
8685. I do not suppose you have the book here? - No.
8686. Just tell us from your recollection what is it one would find in the book about this? - That the scrap log was to be put on a slate and rubbed off every day, or else in a book in which the page can be destroyed.
      The Solicitor-General: The owners are represented here, my Lord; no doubt they can prove it if it is so.
      The Commissioner: Will you inquire about that, Mr. Laing?
      Mr. Laing: Yes.
      Mr. Robertson Dunlop: I will make inquiries what the instructions are, and what the practice is with regard to these scrap logs.
      The Commissioner: Is there anyone here who can tell us now?
      Mr. Robertson Dunlop: I have no one here who can tell us now, but I will make inquiries during the Adjournment.
      Mr. Laing: I can tell your Lordship what the practice is. The practice, so far as the White Star vessels are concerned is that the scrap logs are not to be kept. They are torn off a block or pad day by day. What is called the chief officer's log is kept and handed in as soon as completed, to the owners; but the scrap logs are not kept.

Page 197

8687. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) I clearly understand in your case you do not use a slate? - No.
8688. And you do not use a pad? - No.
8689. You use a book with a cover? - Yes.
8690. And stitched? - Yes.
8691. Have you got the cover? - I think so.
8692. And you will find it if you can. We should like to see it. Now I have here the log which you wrote up - the 13th April, the 14th of April on the next page, and the 15th. The page runs from midnight to midnight, and then the noon observations are in the middle across the page? - Yes, just the same as that.
8693. I see on the 13th April, at noon (I am taking latitudes), you were 43º 43'? - Yes.
8694. And I see that on the 14th April, twenty four hours later, you were 42º 5'? - Yes.
8695. You were going rather more southerly? - Yes.
8696. Of course, the ice came from the north, I suppose? - Yes.
8697. Does it set in a southerly direction? - Yes.
8698. So that in the course of those twenty-four hours you had made southerly some 39 minutes of latitude? - Yes.
8699. Before you next took the noon observation your vessel had stopped? - Yes.
8700. Because she stopped about 10.20 or 10.21, on Sunday evening? - Yes.
8701. And she had stopped because of the ice? - Yes.
8702. Who made the calculation to find out what her latitude was when she stopped? - The Captain gave the position at 10.21.
8703. The Captain did that? - Yes.
8704. Was there any reason that you know of why between noon on the 14th of April and the time when she stopped, she should have altered her course and ceased to go on more to the south? - No.
8705. There is no reason you know of? - No.
      The Commissioner: I would like to understand as I go along. Do your questions suggest this log has been doctored?
8706. (The Solicitor-General.) What I want to know is, how they arrived at the latitude which is put down, I presume, by dead reckoning at 10.20. I am right; it would be by dead reckoning you would get it? - Not only that; I had the Pole Star at half-past ten.
8707. (The Solicitor-General.) I am making no suggestion, but I want to understand, because there may be a mistake. What I notice is that at noon on the 13th April your latitude was 43º 43' at noon on the 14th April it was 42° 5', and yet when she stopped, 10 1/2 hours later than noon, about half-past ten, the latitude by dead reckoning is still given as 42º 5'? - Yes, but we were going more westerly then, I believe, from noon.
8708. Keeping on the same latitude since noon? - Yes.
8709. Could you tell me when you changed your course? Look at the log and tell me. Start from noon on the 14th April, Sunday. Can you tell me from your log when you changed your course? - N. 61° W. at noon.
8710. Is that altered at noon? - Yes.
      Mr. Robertson Dunlop: It altered at 9.40 and 9.55.
8711. (The Solicitor-General.) Would that keep you on the same latitude? - Yes.
8712. What do you mean by N. 61° W.? Is that magnetic? - That is compass.
8713. Do you know what the deviation of your compass is? - About 5 degrees, I believe - 5 1/2 degrees I believe it was.
8714. Which way? - W.
8715. Then if you allow for the deviation what does your course come to be then? - About W.
8716. And is that from noon? - Yes.
8717. In the log for the 14th April where the course might be indicated the entry is "various." Is that so? - The 14th April?
8718. Am I wrong? - On the 15th April it is "various" in the morning.
8719. Now turn back to the 14th; what about it there? - That is the course for the previous 24 hours.
8720. When you make your noon observation? - Yes; a summary for the 24 hours.
8721. Now, I should like to follow this. As far as your memory serves you, did you enter into that logbook everything that you found on the scrap log sheet? - Yes.
8722. You observe there is nothing at all in your logbook about seeing distress signals? - Yes.
8723. Is there anything? - No, nothing.
8724. Nothing at all? - No.
8725. No reference to any of these events of the night at all? - No.
8726. (The Commissioner.) Does that convey to you that there was no reference to those events in the scrap log? - Yes, my Lord.
8727. (The Solicitor-General.) Give us your views. Supposing you were keeping the scrap log on a watch when you were in ice, and supposing you saw a few miles to the southward a ship sending up what appeared to you to be distress signals, would not you enter that in the log? - Yes - I do not know.
8728. (The Commissioner.) Oh, yes you do? - Yes, I daresay I should have entered it, but it was not in our scrap logbook.
8729. (The Solicitor-General.) That is not what I asked you. What I asked you was - apply your mind to it - supposing you had been keeping the scrap log in those circumstances and you saw distress signals being sent up by a ship a few miles from you, is that, or is not that, a thing you would enter in the log? - Yes.
8730. (The Commissioner.) How do you account for it not being there? - I do not know, my Lord.
8731. It was careless not to put it in, was it not? - Or forgetful.
8732. Forgetful? Do you think that a careful man is likely to forget the fact that distress signals have been going on from a neighbouring steamer? - No, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: Then do not talk to me about forgetfulness.
8733. (The Solicitor-General.) The scrap logbook is intended to be kept at the time, is it not, as the things happen? - Yes, Sir, but they generally write them up at the end of the watch.
8734. And you were there at 4 o'clock at the end of the watch? - Yes.
8735. And Mr. Stone told you then at 4 o'clock that he had seen these signals? - Yes.
8736. (The Commissioner.) And they had been sending messages to the Captain about them? - Yes.
8737. (The Solicitor-General.) Three times? - Yes.
8738. And you were just going to take over the ship for the next watch and take charge of this same sheet of paper? - Yes.
8739. Did not it occur to you that it was odd that there was nothing entered on the scrap logbook? - I did not notice the scrap logbook at that time.
8740. You did not notice it? - No.
8741. You made entries on the same sheet of paper between four and eight o'clock, did not you? - Not till eight o'clock.
8742. At eight then? - Yes.
8743. Did not you notice it then? - I noticed there was nothing on it then.
8744. But by that time you had had the message that the "Titanic" had sunk? - Yes.
8745. Did not you notice it then? - I noticed there was nothing there.
8746. You did notice it? - Yes.
8747. Then you did at eight o'clock notice there was nothing in the scrap logbook about what had happened between midnight and four? - Yes.
8748. And you have told us, in your view, it would be right to make such entries? - Yes.
8749. Did you ever speak to the Second Officer about it? - No.
8750. Never? - No.
8751. (The Commissioner.) Or to the Captain? - No.
8752. Or to anybody? - No, my Lord.
8753. (The Solicitor-General.) This piece of paper, whatever it was in the scrap logbook for 15th April, would be used until midnight on the 15th, would not it? - Yes.

Page 198

8754. Then would you write the entries into the logbook from the scrap logbook? - Yes.
8755. And do you say you then destroyed the record for April 15th? - Yes.
8756. When you destroyed it did you notice then there was no record on it about these distress signals, did not you notice that? - No, I just copied it off as it was.
8757. There is just one other question I must put to you because we are going to call the Marconi operator. You have told us that during your watch between four and eight, you went in to see the Marconi operator, did not you? - Yes.
8758. Try and remember what it was that you told him? - I told him to get out and see what the ship was to the southward.
8759. I want you to be as accurate as you can. Do you think that is all you said to him? - I think so.
8760. What this ship was to the southward? - Yes.
8761. What did you mean by "This ship to the southward"? - The ship that I could see, Sir.
8762. The ship that Mr. Stone had already told you was not the ship that had sent up the rockets? - Yes.
8763. You think that is what you asked him? - Yes.
8764. I must just put it to you. Did not you go to his room and did not you say to him that rockets had been seen during the night? - I do not think so, Sir.
8765. You do not think you did? - No.
8766. And did not you ask him whether he could find out with his Marconi apparatus whether anything was amiss? - I told him to call up and see what that ship was to the southward. I remember that distinctly, Sir.
8767. Did not you ask him whether he could find out whether anything was amiss? - I do not think so - No, Sir; I do not remember that.
8768. Did you at that time think that anything was amiss? - I thought something had happened, yes.
8769. But you do not think you said that? - I do not think so, Sir.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

8770. With reference to the navigation of your own ship, did you think it was dangerous on that night, the Sunday night, to proceed? - Yes.
8771. What circumstances caused you to think that? - The ship was surrounded by ice.
8772. Was there any haze? - None at 4 o'clock.
8773. You went off watch at 9.30? - Eight o'clock I went off watch really.
8774. But you did not leave the deck till 9.30? - I was out on deck for a few minutes until 9.30.
8775. About that time was there any haze? - I did not notice any; I do not think so.
8776. Had you been in charge and seen distress signals would you have proceeded to the vessel in distress? - Yes, Sir, I think I would.
      Mr. Harbinson: I ask this witness nothing.

Examined by Mr. CLEMENT EDWARDS.

8777. When you went on duty again at four your ship was still stationary? - Yes.
8778. What time did you start moving? - 5.15.
8779. At that time you were surrounded by a considerable lot of ice? - Yes.
8780. What pace did you make for the first three or four miles? - We were going very, very slow.
8781. How slow? - I could not tell you what we were going; I was not very much on the bridge after that time.
8782. Cannot you give us any idea of the pace? - I could not give you any idea.
8783. Just crawling through? - Just crawling through the ice.

Examined by Mr. ROBERTSON DUNLOP.

8784. I want to ask you about this logbook. When do you write up the logbook? - As a rule between 8 o'clock in the morning and noon.
8785. Do you remember when you wrote up the log entry of 14th April, after you had stopped in the ice? - Yes, I wrote that up just before noon on the 15th.
8786. Do you write it up from your scrap log? - Yes.
8787. And then you say that after you have written it up from the scrap log you destroy the sheet of paper? - Yes.
8788. Tear it out of the book? - Yes.
8789. And is that the practice which you were following before April 14th? - Always.
8790. And the practice which you have since followed? - Yes.
8791. You have been asked some questions by my friend about the course you were steering. I think the course you steer across the Atlantic is changed from time to time? - Yes.
8792. You are sailing on the Great Circle? - Yes.
8793. I see that at 9.40 on the 14th April the course was altered to north 60 west, and again at 9.55 to north 59 west? - Yes.
8794. From time to time there is an alteration of course of about a degree one way or the other? - Yes.
8795. Is that in the ordinary course of navigation and apart from the presence of ice? - Yes.
8796. At 6.30 your log, if you look at it, records passing two large icebergs, and gives the latitude and longitude? - Yes.
8797. Is that the latitude and longitude of your ship at the time these icebergs were passed? - Yes.
8798. When did you get the observation of the pole star that enabled you to fix your position? - About half-past 7.
8799. P.m.? - P.m., yes.
8800. That is about an hour after you passed these icebergs? - Yes.
8801. Did you get your position before or after the ice was reported to the "Antillian"? - I do not know what time it was reported to the "Antillian."
8802. Apparently we may take it from what was said just now that the wireless message was sent to the "Antillian" and received by the "Titanic" at 6.30? - Yes.
8803. Do you know what position was given to the Marconi operator? - No.
8804. He will tell us. Assuming the position given to the Marconi operator was latitude 42.3 north, I find in your log latitude 42.5 north? - Yes.
8805. What is the explanation of the two degrees' difference of latitude? - Two miles on account of observation.
8806. Two minutes of difference - is that your explanation? - I had the star then. I thought the star was more accurate.
8807. Is the explanation this: That at 6.30 the latitude given to the Marconi operator was latitude by dead reckoning from your noon position? - Yes.
8808. But at 7.30, an hour later, you got an observation which enabled you to fix your actual position? - Yes.
8809. Which differed two minutes north of the position by dead reckoning? - Yes.
8810. And is that observation at 6.30 recorded in your log of this star an accurate one? - Yes.
8811. Is there any room for doubt about the accuracy of that position there? - No.
8812. Then at 10.21 there is an entry that the ship was stopped in latitude 42·5 north and longitude 50·7 west? - Yes.
8813. Do you know who took that position? - The captain gave us that position.

Page 199

8814. Did you or not subsequently verify this position? - Yes.
8815. When did you verify it? - The next day.
8816. And did you find this position to be accurate? - Yes.
8817. At noon on the 15th did you take observations to fix your position? - Yes.
8818. Who was taking part in these observations? - All the officers took them.
8819. Did you get good sights? - Very good sights.
8820. Did the sights taken by the various officers agree? - They all agreed.
8821. And was the position as ascertained by those sights latitude 41·33? Can you tell me? - Yes, 41·3 N., 50·9 W.
8822. That is your noon position? - Yes.
8823. Are you able from working back from that noon position to fix accurately the position of the wreckage which you came up to at 8.30? - Yes.
8824. How many miles had you traveled between the time you proceeded on your course and when you took this position? - About four or five miles.
8825. According to your log, you proceeded on your course at 11.20? - Yes.
8826. And you stopped close to the "Carpathia" at 8.30? - Yes.
8827. And remained until 11.20? - Yes.
8828. And between 11.20 and noon you say you traveled some four or five miles? - Yes.
8829. Were you encountering ice at the time? - Yes.
8830. Is the position stated in your log as the position in which you were searching for the boats of the "Titanic" accurate or not - latitude 41·33 north and longitude 50·1 west? - Yes.
8831. Was that the latitude and longitude in which you found the wreckage? - Yes.
8832. How many miles was the position of the wreckage from the place where you had been stopped from 10.21 the night before until six o'clock that morning? - About thirty miles.
8833. Do you know in what direction, thirty miles? - About south a little east.
8834. Assuming the "Titanic" struck the iceberg in the position which was reported by the "Virginian" at 6 a.m., according to your log, latitude 41.46 north and longitude 50.14 west, how far was that position from the place where you were stopped? - About 19 or 20 miles.
8835. And bearing how? - Bearing about south-south-west - south, a little west.
8836. Could the "Titanic," assuming she was in either of those two positions, or was to the eastward of either of those two positions, by any possibility have been visible to anyone on board your ship while you were lying stopped in the ice? - No.
8837. Do you think her rockets could have been seen in the latitude in which she was? - I do not think so, Sir.
      The Commissioner: All this does not impress my mind much. It all proceeds upon the assumption that all these figures are right. The other evidence to my mind is of vastly more importance. However, I do not want to shut you out from it, you know.
8838. (Mr. Dunlop.) You have heard my Lord's observation. Have you any reason to doubt the accuracy of these latitudes? - No, Sir.
      The Commissioner: The previous officer told me, in answer to a question, that I think you yourself suggested, that he was satisfied that it was the "Titanic," and at present I do not mind telling you that is my attitude of mind. You may perhaps change it.
      Mr. Dunlop: I hope to succeed, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: What do you think?
      Mr. Dunlop: I submit, my Lord -
      The Commissioner: Oh no, I am not asking you - I am asking the witness.
8839. (Mr. Dunlop - To the Witness.) What do you think? - I do not know, Sir.
      The Commissioner: That is a very safe answer.
8840. (Mr. Dunlop.) Have you formed any opinion? I suppose you have been thinking about this a good deal and discussing it with the officers, and may I say with others in New York? - Yes.
8841. Have you ever considered whether the vessel which was reported to have been sending up rockets was, or could have been, the "Titanic"? - I do not think it could have been, Sir.
8842. (The Commissioner.) What? - I do not think it was, Sir.
8843. You think it may have been? - I think if it had been the "Titanic" there would have been no doubt about it.
8844. Do you think it may have been the "Titanic"? - No, Sir.
8845. (Mr. Dunlop.) You were proceeding to Boston? - Yes.
8846. The "Titanic" is said to have been going to New York? - Yes.
8847. (The Commissioner.) Have you ever found out what it was, if it was not the "Titanic"? - No, my Lord.
8848. Has anybody found out what it was? - No, my Lord.
8849. (Mr. Dunlop.) Have you ever found out what that steamer was which you yourself saw on the Monday morning? - No.
      The Commissioner: That is the steamer which Stone, I think, said was not the steamer that he had seen the night before.
8850. (Mr. Dunlop - To the Witness.) But it was a steamer that you saw on the Monday morning? - Yes.
8851. What kind of a steamer was she? - A four-masted steamer with one funnel.
8852. Have you been able to ascertain what her name was? - No.
8853. Does it surprise you that you have not been able to find out the name of the steamer that was firing rockets at midnight? - Well, we never knew what ship that was that we saw to the southward.
      The Commissioner: Do not you think that if there had been a steamer firing rockets at that time we should have heard something about her by this time?
      Mr. Dunlop: Your Lordship may yet.
      The Commissioner: I know; but we have not so far, and you see it is a month since this happened.
8854. (Mr. Dunlop - To the Witness.) If you were proceeding to Boston and the "Titanic" to New York, if you proceeded on your ordinary course and she proceeded on her ordinary course, what difference of latitude would there ordinarily be between the tracks of the two steamers? - At that point I believe it would be about thirty or forty miles.
8855. If you were both doing what you intended to do? - Yes.
8856. Now I want to ask you about the reports which the Second Officer made to you when you came on duty at four o'clock. I do not think we have got this clearly. You told my friend the Solicitor-General that the Second Officer reported that about 1 o'clock the steamer he was referring to had fired some rockets? - Yes.
8857. You remember saying that do you? - Yes.
8858. When the Second Officer told you that, what did you say? - I asked him what she did then.
8859. Did you ask him whether they were distress signals, for example? - Yes, I asked if he thought they were distress signals.
8860. And what did he reply to you? - He said, No, he did not think they were; they did not make any report.
8861. (The Commissioner.) Who said that? - Mr. Stone, my Lord.
8862. (Mr. Dunlop.) The Second Officer. (To the Witness.) Did he give you any reason for thinking that they were not distress signals? - He said he thought they might have been replying to somebody else to the southward.
8863. Did you ask him what kind of rockets they were - whether they made any report or anything of that kind? - Yes, Sir.
8864. What did he say? - He said, No, they did not make any report, and they did not leave any trail in the sky, and they did not seem to go any higher than the masthead lights.
8865. And did he mention these matters as reasons for thinking that they were not distress signals? - Yes.
8866. But signals made by way of communication with some other vessel to the southward? - Yes.

Page 200

8867. Did you ask, or not, what he thought this vessel had been firing rockets for? - Yes, Sir.
8868. Did he state any opinion to you? - He said he thought she was answering to somebody else.
8869. Supposing a vessel had been to the southward of your position and between you and the "Titanic"; and supposing she had seen the signals of the "Titanic," would you be surprised if she had signaled in reply by means of rockets? - No, Sir.
8870. If this vessel had no wireless telegraphic apparatus, or did not understand, or did not use the Morse signals, was there any other means of acknowledging the "Titanic's" signals than by these rockets? - I do not think so.
8871. Did you see the nature of the ice, between six o'clock and 8.30, the next morning? - Yes.
8872. While you were steaming in the direction of where you supposed the "Titanic" to be? - Yes.
8873. Do you remember what course you had to steer? - No.
8874. Were you able to proceed direct to the position of the "Titanic" given by the "Virginian," or had you to skirt the edge of the ice-field? - We went along the edge of the ice-field, I remember that.
8875. Did you see what kind of ice there was to the south-west of the position where you were? - It was thick field ice.
8876. Supposing this vessel which was seen during the midnight watch had in fact been proceeding to the south-west in answer to signals from the "Titanic" - proceeding in that direction - could she have reached the "Titanic"? - I do not think so.
8877. Unless she skirted the ice in the same way that you were able to do at daylight? - Yes.
8878. May that be the explanation of why you had not been able to find out the name of this vessel and why she was not there when you reached the "Carpathia"? - Yes.
8879. Did the Second Officer say what the movements of the steamer had been which had fired the rockets? Did he report to you that at 4 o'clock? - He said she steamed away to the south-west.
8880. Did he say what happened to her lights, and what he saw of them? - He said he saw a stern light as she was going out of sight, and it got very faint, so faint that he had to use the binoculars to get the bearing of it.
8881. Was there any report made of the lights having disappeared in the sense of a vessel having foundered? - Not at 4 o'clock.
8882. Or anything of that kind? - No.
8883. Was that the impression which his report created on your mind? - No.
8884. When he reported that the vessel had steamed away, what did you gather from the way in which he made his report of what he told you that had happened to this steamer? - That he had gone down to the other ship.
8885. Gone down to the south-west? - Yes.
8886. Did you ask him whether he had seen anything else? - He said he thought there was a light to southward about 20 minutes to 4.
8887. And when he stated that, what did you do, if anything? - I looked and I could see a light to the southward.
8888. What was the vessel which was showing the light which you saw to the southward at 20 minutes to 4? - I saw the lights at 4 o'clock. She had two masthead lights and a few lights amidships.
8889. That was the light which the Second Officer, as I understand, had told you he thought he saw - the light to the southward at 20 minutes to 4? - Yes.
8890. He told you that at 4 o'clock, and then you say you looked at it and you picked up the light? - Yes.
8891. Was that the light of this four-masted one funnel steamer which you afterwards saw at daylight? - Yes.
8892. - 8893.   Did you draw the attention of the Second Officer to that light? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: Now, Mr. Dunlop, do get on.

8894. (Mr. Dunlop.) And it was then that there was some discussion as to whether that was the vessel that had been exhibiting the rockets which he had seen during the middle watch? - Yes.
8895. Did he say whether he had seen this vessel before or not? - He said he had not seen that ship before.
8896. Is it easy or not to say from what particular lights distress signals may be exhibited - whether it was this vessel or some other vessel? Is it different from lights only or masthead lights? You see what I mean? Was it easy for him to be able to be sure whether the vessel that was exhibiting the rockets was not the vessel which you drew his attention to shortly after 4 o'clock? - No, I do not think so.
      The Commissioner: I do not very well understand the question, and I certainly do not understand the answer.
8897. (Mr. Dunlop.) My Lord, I will try and put it again more clearly. (To the Witness.) The Second Officer, as you told us, said that he did not think the vessel which you pointed out to him was the vessel that had previously been firing the rockets? - Yes.
8898. Is that a thing that he could be sure about? - I do not think so.
      The Solicitor-General: He has given evidence, you know.
8899. (Mr. Dunlop.) I want to know your opinion, because you were there and you saw this vessel and the position in which this vessel was. Did the Second Officer report to you the direction from which he had seen these rockets? - Coming from the steamer?
8900. Yes? - He said she had gone away to the south-west.
8901. And in what direction was it that you saw this light which you were able to pick up? - About south.
      Mr. Edwards: May I suggest that your Lordship asks this witness this question: How many funnels the "Carpathia" has?
8902. (The Commissioner.) Can you tell us how many funnels the "Carpathia" has? - One funnel, my Lord.

Examined by Mr. COTTER.

8903. - 8904.   How many masts has the "Carpathia" got? - Four masts.

8905. Is it in your mind at all that it was the "Carpathia" you saw? - No; I thought it was a yellow funnel boat when the sun was up.
8906. Are there any instructions issued by your company about the Marconi apparatus in time of trouble, either on your own ships or any other ships? - No, I do not know of any.
8907. None at all? - No.
8908. What took you to the Marconi House at the time you went there? - The Captain sent me to call the Marconi man to see what ship was to the southward.
8909. The Captain sent you? - Yes.
8910. What time did the Captain come up to the bridge? - Half-past four.
8911. When did you first hear that the "Titanic" had sunk? - When I went to the Marconi House.
8912. How long after you had got to the Marconi House did you find out that the "Titanic" had sunk? - I could not exactly say how long it was - the time I took to get the operator out and to his machine.
8913. He was in bed? - Yes, asleep.
8914. And he got to his machine? - Yes.
8915. Did the Marconi operator tell you where he had got the information from? - He said he had the "Frankfurt."
8916. Would it not have been the right thing, I ask you, as Chief Officer, assuming that you saw these lights in close proximity to the ice and rockets also going up - would it not have been the right thing to have gone immediately to the the operator, and asked him to get into communication if possible with this ship? - Yes, I think so now.

Page 201

8917. But would not you do it as your duty? - I saw a ship to the southward there, but she would not answer.
8918. But assuming that you could not get any definite reply from her, would it not have been the best thing to have gone and got the Marconi instrument into operation to see if you could get into touch with her? - Yes, now I think so.

(The Witness withdrew.)

The Solicitor-General: What we propose to do, subject to your Lordship's approval, is to recall the Third Officer and the Second Officer just on this one point about the log, so that your Lordship may have the evidence about it, and then we propose to call the Marconi operator.

CHARLES VICTOR GROVES, Recalled.

Examined by Mr. ROWLATT.

8919. I want to ask you one or two questions about the waste logbook to clear up something. I understood you to tell us that the waste logbook, as a book, was destroyed. Is that so? - Not as a book, no, Sir.
8920. How is it destroyed? - Page by page.
8921. Every day? - Not necessarily every day. I do not think it is done at any stated intervals, but I do not have anything to do with the destroying of it.
8922. Perhaps you can tell us this. On April 15th, when you came on duty, had the page before been destroyed? - That I could not say, but I hardly think it would be.
8923. You could not tell as to any particular days when they were destroyed? - No.

(The Witness withdrew.)

The Commissioner: I think you have got the evidence now about the logbook and the scrap logbook.
The Solicitor-General: Your Lordship does not care about having the other officer again?
The Commissioner: No, I do not think so. I may tell you that the effect of these things on my mind is this - That it is the practice to tear out the sheets of the scrap log from time to time and destroy them. But, you know, that does not get over my difficulty that apparently, if this evidence is true that has been given in the box, there was no entry of any kind in that scrap log of these rockets having been seen.
The Solicitor-General: I understand, my Lord.

CYRIL F. EVANS, Sworn.

Examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL.

8924. Are you the Marconi operator on the steamship "Californian"? - Yes.
8925. Do you remember Sunday, 14th April? - Yes.
8926. You have no one to help you, I think - no assistant - with the Marconi apparatus on the ship? - No.
8927. Can you tell us what time you turned in on the Sunday night? - Half-past eleven, ship's time.
8928. During the Sunday, this 14th of April, had you been on duty with your Marconi apparatus from time to time? - Yes.
8929. I think starting about 7 o'clock in the morning? - Yes.
8930. When you get a certain way across the Atlantic do the Marconi operators keep New York time for the purpose of their messages? - Yes, when they get to 40 west.
8931. When you get to the Meridian 40 west? - Yes.
8932. Were you in that part of the Atlantic where New York time is kept by the Marconi operators? - Yes.
8933. Have you got your records there, or do you remember them - the hours I am going to put to you? - I have my logbook.
8934. Would not it be as well for you to have it? - The Chief Officer has it.
8935. I have no doubt he would let you have it. Perhaps, while they are getting it you can tell me this: What is the difference between New York time and ship's time at the place where you stopped? - One hour and fifty-five minutes.
8936. That means one would have to add 1 hour 55 minutes to New York time to get at your ship's time at the place where you stopped? - Yes.
      (The Marconi logbook was handed to the Witness.)
8937. We have heard something about communications between you and the "Antillian"? - Yes.
8938. Is that another ship of the same line, the Leyland line? - Yes.
8939. Can you tell us what time it was that you were communicating with the "Antillian," and then tell us what the message was you sent? - 5.35 p.m. on the 14th.
8940. That is New York time? - Yes.
8941. In ship's time then that would mean 7.30, would it not? - Yes.
8942. p.m.? - Yes.
8943. What was the message which you sent the "Antillian" at that time? - It was a message reporting ice. "To Captain, 'Antillian,' 6.30 p.m. apparent time, ship; latitude, 42.3 North; longitude, 49.9 West. Three large bergs five miles to southward of us. Regards. Lord."
8944. "Lord" - that is the name of your Captain? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: Did you say that was sent at 7.30?
8945. (The Solicitor-General.) He was sending it at 7.30. (To the Witness.) That is information, so I understand, as to what they had seen at 6.30? - Yes.
8946. You are sending at half-past seven a message which the Captain had asked you to send? - Yes.
8947. And the message referred to the fact that an hour before apparent ship's time there had been icebergs seen to the southward? - Yes.
8948. Did the Captain write out this message and give it to you to send? - Yes.
8949. I just want you to go back for a moment to the message; there was one point I did not quite follow. You began by telling us the message started by a reference to your latitude and longitude. Did that refer, as you understood it, to the position you were in at half-past seven, or to the position you were in at half-past six? - Half-past six apparent time ship.
8950. So that it gave the other ships news of whereabouts in the Atlantic these icebergs were? - Yes.

Page 202

8951. Did you hear anything of or from the "Titanic" about this time? - Yes, a little after.
8952. Did she ring you up, or did you ring her up? - She called me up.
8953. What does that mean? Is it just to find your position, or what? - No. If you have not had another ship before, whichever ships hears the other one first you call him up and you offer him a "T.R."
8954. What does "T.R." mean? - "Time rush"- when a ship gets him. It is what we call the official "T.R."
8955. (The Commissioner.) What does "T.R." mean? - It means "time rush."
      The Commissioner: What does "time rush" mean? - I do not know the significance of it.
8956. (The Solicitor-General.) I fancy it is merely a memoria technica. (To the Witness.) It is merely a convenient message to use? - Yes.
8957. Let us see if I follow it properly. When the "Titanic" sends out a message as other ships get nearer to her with apparatus they can hear that the "Titanic" is sending out a message, cannot they? - Yes.
8958. When they get within a certain range? - Yes.
8959. And when that happens, do you communicate back again? - Yes.
8960. To say that you are there? - Yes.
8961. Then the "Titanic" knows that you are within her range, and you are able to say that you have heard the "Titanic"? - Yes.
8962. Is that what a "T.R." is? - Yes; and then we exchange times to see if our clocks are the same. That is why we call it a "T.R."
8963. You exchange times? - Yes, and which way we are bound.
8964. Ship's time? - No, if we are working on New York time we exchange New York time.
8965. So that that is a check to see that each ship has got the right time? - Yes.
8966. I see from the statement you have made that upon this happening you offered him what you call an "S.G."? - Yes.
8967. What is an "S.G."? - "S.G." is a prefix. When you send "S.G." he knows that there is a service advice message coming through.
8968. It means that you are offering him some information if he wants it? - Yes.
8969. And what was the information that you were prepared to offer the "Titanic"? - I told him "'S.G.' ice report."
8970. That means that you were in a position to give him some news about ice? - Yes.
8971. Is this shortly after half-past seven? - Yes.
8972. What did the "Titanic" say to you when you offered your ice report? - He said, "It is all right. I heard you sending it to the 'Antillian,' and I have got it."
8973. Did you cease communicating with him? - Yes.
8974. That is all about 7.30, or a little later, is it not? - Yes.
8975. There is nothing more, as I follow you, until your ship stops? - No.
8976. Which we know she did, about 10.25 - your ship's time? - Yes.
8977. Did you go on deck when you found the ship had stopped? - Yes.
8978. I think you found the Captain and the Chief Engineer discussing the matter? - Yes.
8979. And then did the Captain make a communication to you and ask you to do something? - Well, Sir, he was talking about the ice then; he was talking to the Chief Officer. I asked him if anything was the matter, and if he wanted me. A little after that he came along to my cabin to talk to me.
8980. What did he want to know? - He asked me what ships I had got.
8981. That means, what ships you were in touch with? - In communication with.
8982. What did you say? - I said, "I think the 'Titanic' is near us. I have got her."
8983. Did you say "I think the 'Titanic' is near us" or "is nearest"? - Near us.
8984. (The Commissioner.) "Nearer" is it you are saying? - She was "near us."
8985. (The Solicitor-General.) As far as you know, was there any ship with Marconi apparatus that was nearer you at this time than the "Titanic"? - Not as far as I know. I had not the "Titanic's" position.
8986. (The Commissioner.) What time was this - about what time? - Five minutes to eleven.
8987. (The Solicitor-General.) Ship's time? - Yes.
8988. What did the Captain say when you said that? - He said, "You had better advise the 'Titanic' we are stopped and surrounded by ice."
8989. Did you call up the "Titanic"? - Yes.
8990. Can you give me the time? - It was 9.5 p.m..
8991. New York time? - Yes, 11 o'clock ship's time.
8992. What did you say? - I said, "We are stopped and surrounded by ice."
8993. Did you get an answer from the "Titanic"? - They said, "Keep out."
8994. Just explain to us, will you, what that means? - Well, Sir, he was working to Cape Race at the time. Cape Race was sending messages to him, and when I started to send he could not hear what Cape Race was sending.
8995. Does that mean that you would send louder than Cape Race to him? - Yes; and he did not want me to interfere.
8996. That would interrupt his conversation with Cape Race? - Yes.
8997. So that he asked you to "keep out"? - Yes.
8998. - 8999.   In ordinary Marconi practice is that a common thing to be asked? - Yes. And you do not take it as an insult or anything like that.
      The Commissioner: What did you say?

9000. (The Solicitor-General.) "You do not take it as an insult or anything like that." (To the Witness.) Do I understand rightly then that a Marconi operator, like other people, can only clearly hear one thing at a time? - Yes.
9001. Have you any means of knowing - do you judge that he had heard your message about ice? When you say you sent this message and he said "keep out," did he say that after he had got your message? - The very minute I stopped sending.
9002. (The Commissioner.) You cannot tell, I suppose, whether he heard what you said? - He must have heard it, my Lord, but I do not know whether he took it down.
9003. Would he hear what you said, or would he merely hear that you were speaking? You see, as I understand, he was getting messages from two points - from Cape Race and from you. He could not hear both, I suppose, at the same time? - No, my Lord.
9004. And he may not have heard what you said, though he may have known that you were trying to speak to him. I do not know, you know; I am only asking? - Well, my Lord, my signal would be much stronger than Cape Race's.
9005. You think that he would have heard you, and you would, as it were, obliterate Cape Race? - Certainly, my Lord.
9006. (The Solicitor-General.) I notice, Mr. Evans, in the evidence you gave in America, you said your message would come to him with a bang? - Yes.
9007. And the other message would be faint. Is that right? - Yes.
9008. We shall hear a good deal about this later on. Now will you tell me this? You spoke about speaking to him and his hearing you. Is it spelt out with a code or with an alphabet? - Spelt out with an alphabet.
9009. Is it the ticking of a needle? - No, Sir, the clicks in the 'phone. You read off them.
9010. Long clicks and short clicks? - Yes.
9011. How is it that he would know when he got your message coming to him with a bang that it came from you? - By my call signal.
9012. You begin with that, do you? - First of all.
9013. You say who you are? - First of all you give his call signal, and then yours afterwards.
9014. And then you gave him this message, spelt it out, that you were stopped in ice; and then he replies to you, "Keep out." How do you know he was talking to Cape Race? - I heard him beforehand.

Page 203

9015. You could hear him? - Beforehand, and directly after that.
9016. (The Commissioner.) What was it you heard? - Before that, my Lord?
9017. No. What was it that you heard which conveyed to you that he was in communication with Cape Race? - Directly afterwards he called up Cape Race - a few seconds after.
9018. After he had said to you "Keep out"? - Yes, my Lord.
9019. (The Solicitor-General.) Could you overhear what he was saying to Cape Race? - Yes.
9020. What was it he said? - He said, "Sorry, please repeat, jammed."
9021. That means that somebody else had interrupted? - Yes.
9022. After that did you hear him continuing to send messages? - Right up till I turned in.
9023. It was not your business, and I have no doubt you did not listen in detail to what they were, but could you tell, as a matter of fact, whether they were private messages? - Yes, all private messages. You can tell by the prefix.
      The Commissioner: That means messages from passengers.
9024. (The Solicitor-General.) Yes, business and private messages for the passengers. (To the Witness.) You can tell that by what you call the prefix, the sound that is sent first of all? - Yes.
9025. And that continued, you say, till you turned in? - Yes.
9026. When was it that you turned in? - Eleven-thirty p.m., ship's time.
9027. You had been at work since 7 o'clock in the morning, except intervals for meals? - Yes.
9028. Was it your regular course to turn in about that time? - As a rule. It all depends where we are.
9029. And when you turn in you put down I suppose the receivers, or whatever they are? - I hung the 'phones up. The detector was also stopped.
9030. What is the detector? - The detector is the arrangement for detecting the signals - making the signals audible in the 'phones which has to be wound up.
9031. And that would stop would it? - Yes.
9032. So that after you had turned in, supposing the "Titanic" sent out the signals C.Q.D., or whatever they might be, you would not hear them? - No, Sir, not unless I got the 'phones.
9033. And your instrument would not repeat them? - No.
9034. You turned in. Do you recollect the second officer, Mr. Groves, coming into your room a little later? - Yes, I have a faint recollection of it.
9035. Can you give me any idea as to what sort of time it was? - About a quarter-past 12, I think.
9036. Mr. Groves' watch ended at midnight, you know? - Yes.
9037. And he came in you say at about a quarter-past 12? - He stopped up on the bridge, I think, for 10 minutes until 10 minutes past 12 with the other officer to get his eyes in.
9038. When Mr. Groves came into your room, what did he do? - He asked me what ships I had got; if I had got any news.
9039. Yes, what did you tell him? - I told him I had got the "Titanic." I said, "You know, the new boat on its maiden voyage. I got it this afternoon."
9040. You got it this afternoon. Had you got the "Titanic" earlier than half-past 7? - No.
9041. When you said "This afternoon," you mean at half-past 7"? - Yes, Sir, that was right.
9042. That is right, is it? - Yes.
9043. By New York time it would be 4.30 or 5 o'clock? - Yes.
9044. Did anything more happen then? - I do not remember Mr. Groves picking the 'phones up, but Mr. Groves says so.
9045. That he picked them up and put them into his ears? - Yes; of course, I was half asleep.
9046. Did he tell you, as far as you recollect, then at a quarter-past twelve of anything that he had seen since the ship had stopped? - No.
9047. He only came in and asked what ships you had got? - Yes. He generally comes in my room and has a talk.
9048. He generally does that? - Yes. He comes and has a chat.
9049. Just to find out what the news is? - Yes.
9050. And then, I think, you went to sleep? - Then I went to sleep. He switched out the light and shut the door.
9051. The next thing I want to know is this. Mr. Stewart is the Chief Officer, is he not? - Yes.
9052. Do you remember Mr. Stewart coming into your room later on? - Yes, in the morning.
9053. Can you tell me what time it was? - 3.40 or 3.45, New York time.
9054. (The Solicitor-General.) Do you mind timing it into ship's time for us?
      The Commissioner: It is inconvenient to have two times. I have taken it down hitherto in ship's time.
9055. (The Solicitor-General.) It is certainly much more convenient, my Lord. (To the Witness.) You have only to add one hour 55 minutes to it, have not you? - Yes.
9056. So that 3.45 New York time is 5.40 ship's time. Is that right - about twenty minutes to six? - Yes.
9057. It was getting light? - Just after dawn, I think.
9058. You remember Mr. Stewart coming into your room at that time, twenty minutes to six? - Yes.
9059. Just tell us carefully, if you will, what it was he said? - He said: "There's a ship been firing rockets. Will you see if you can find out whether there is anything the matter?"
9060. (The Commissioner.) Find out what? - If there is anything the matter.
9061. (The Solicitor-General.) Did you ask him any more about the rockets? - No, I jumped out of my bunk and took up the 'phones at once.
9062. You took up the 'phones immediately? - Yes.
9063. If you had been asked to do that at any time in the night you could have done it, could not you? - I could have done it.
9064. And would have done it, of course? - Yes.
9065. When you get hold of your instrument you send out a call don't you? - I listened at first to see if anybody was working.
9066. You listened first? - Yes.
9067. But you did not hear anything? - No.
9068. And then not hearing anything did you send out a call? - Yes, C.Q.
9069. That is call C.Q. is it? - Yes.
9070. Is that a general call up? - A general call for all ships to answer.
9071. Did you get an answer from anybody? - Yes.
9072. From what ship? - The "Mount Temple" first.
9073. That is a Canadian Pacific vessel, I think? - Yes.
9074. Did you get any information from her? - He said, "Do you know the "Titanic" has struck an iceberg, and she is sinking," and he gave me her position.
9075. You have got his message there, have you? - No, - I mean to say you do not call those messages, you know.
9076. (The Commissioner.) Was it the "Mount Temple" said that the "Titanic" had struck an iceberg? - Yes.
9077. (The Solicitor-General.) You would not keep a record of this? - It is just simply conversation, Sir.
9078. Did you say, "She is sinking"? - He said, "She is sinking."
9079. The "Mount Temple" said, "She is sinking"? - Yes.
9080. Did he give you the position of the "Titanic"? - Yes.
9081. The position that we have had mentioned in the case several times? - Yes.
9082. Did the "Mount Temple" say what she was doing? - No. The "Frankfurt" jumped in then. He told me the same thing and gave me the same position.

Page 204

9083. What line does the "Frankfurt" belong to? - She is a German boat; I think it is the Norddeutscher Lloyd. I know it is a German boat.
9084. What did the "Frankfurt" say? - The "Frankfurt" told me the same thing. The Chief Officer was in my room at the time.
9085. You have told us that Mr. Stewart came in and gave you this information of what had happened during the night, and asked you to find out whether anything was the matter. You say you jumped out of bed and used your instrument. Was Mr. Stewart there? - Yes, Sir. I gave him the position, and he went off to get the Captain.
9086. When you heard these messages from the "Mount Temple" and from the "Frankfurt" did you tell Mr. Stewart what you heard? - I wrote down the position and gave it to him.
9087. You wrote down the position on a piece of paper and gave it to him? - Yes.
9088. Did it take any time calling these ships up and getting the answer? - About five minutes, not more than that.
9089. So that it was about a quarter to six ship's time? - Yes.
9090. When you gave Mr. Stewart the message and the position what did he do? - He went off to the Captain and fetched the Captain. Then I got the "Virginian" and asked him for an official message.
9091. What line does the "Virginian" belong to - the Allan line, is it not? - Yes.
9092. You asked the "Virginian," did you, for an official message? - Yes, so that I could give it to the Captain.
9093. What was the message that you got from the "Virginian"? - It gave the position of the "Titanic," and said she was sinking, passengers in boats.
      The Solicitor-General: Have not you got the actual message there? You might just as well have it?
      The Commissioner: What was the position?
9094. (The Solicitor-General.) I think you will find it is in the message. I have it here: "'Titanic' struck berg; wants assistance; urgent; passengers in boats; ship sinking. His position, 41.46 North, 50.14 West. - Gamble, Commander." Is that right? - Yes.
9095. That is the message from the "Virginian"? - Yes, I have it here, Sir.
9096. I think I read it right, did not I? - Yes.
9097. Did you get any news as to whether any vessels were going to this spot to see if they could help? - The "Frankfurt" told me they were going along, and the "Virginian" told me so, and also a Russian boat.
9098. What is the name of the Russian boat? - The "Birma," Russian-American Line.
9099. She has also got wireless, has she? - Yes, but not our system.
9100. Could you tell sufficiently? - Yes. We all unite in case of an emergency like that.
9101. Did these different vessels that you speak of give you their position? - No, Sir; they gave the "Titanic's."
9102. Only the "Titanic's"? - Yes.
9103. Then you knew they were going to the spot, but you did not know where they were going from? - I knew the "Frankfurt" had passed us during the day before, I think it was.
9104. She is a faster boat than you? - She was going the opposite way, and she passed us. She turned back and went towards the scene of the disaster.
9105. You knew she was nearer Europe; she was more to the East? - Yes.
9106. Apart from that, did you know the actual position of these other boats that said they were going to her assistance? - No. I knew that the "Virginian" was coming up from Cape Race way.
9107. (The Commissioner.) Yes, but you did not know their position? - No, my Lord.
      The Solicitor-General: That is what I wanted to know.

(After a Short Adjournment.)

9108. (The Solicitor-General.) What I wanted to know further was this, about the system. When you turn in and leave your instrument as I understand from what you have told me, a motor stops, your little motor? - No, the detector, it has to be wound up.
9109. Is the effect of that that there would be no means by which you would know whether a distress signal was being sent out by another ship? - No, unless I had the 'phones on. There has been nothing invented so far. There was in the very old sets, but it was done away with because it could not be relied on.
9110. So that you have to rely upon the sense of hearing in your ears, applied to the receiving instrument set against your ears? - Yes.
9111. And, of course, you cannot do that when you are asleep in bed? - No.
9112. The other thing I wanted to be clear about was this. I suppose the range of your communication depends upon the strength of your installation? - For sending, yes.
9113. You heard the "Titanic" speaking to Cape Race? - Yes.
9114. Could you hear Cape Race speaking to the "Titanic"? - No.
9115. Could you hear Cape Race at all? - No.
9116. But evidently the "Titanic" could hear Cape Race? - They had a higher area, and I understand they had a more sensitive detector.
9117. Now, take your installation. What sort of range, what radius of area would you be able to cover with your apparatus; could you speak to a ship 100 miles off? - Yes; the furthest distance I have got so far is 250 miles. My power is cut down. The ship is only a 60-volt dynamo ship; most ships have 100 volts.
9118. So that your installation was comparatively weak? - Oh, no, I get 250 miles.
      The Solicitor-General: Of course, this witness can give evidence of what happened when they got to the "Carpathia," but we have got it without.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

9119. I think you said to your Captain on the Sunday evening that the "Titanic" was near you? - I said I thought she was near us.
9120. What basis had you for saying she was near you? - The strength of the signals.
9121. You also state that when you gave a message to the ship of your own line you gave your position? - Yes.
9122. You commenced the message by giving your position? - Yes.
9123. When you gave the final message to the "Titanic" did you commence that message by giving your address, so to speak - your position then? - No.
9124. Would the "Titanic" be able to judge from the distinctness of your message that you were near them? - Yes; you cannot judge a distance accurately.
9125. What impression did you have as to the distance the "Titanic" was from you? - Well, he had very good signals, very clear signals, and he has got a good power.
9126. Would that indicate roughly a certain number of miles - that you must be within a certain number of miles? - By the strength of the signals I should say he was not more than 100 miles off us in the afternoon. I heard him working a long time before I got him.

Page 205

9127. When you were speaking to him at night, when you gave the message that you were surrounded by ice, what I want to know is, could he form an idea that ice was very near him?
      The Commissioner: The ice?
9128. (Mr. Scanlan.) That he was not far from the position of which this gentleman was speaking. (To the Witness.) In whose employment are you? - The Marconi Company.
9129. Are you liable to come to your machine any time you are called upon by the officers of the ship? - Well, personally I would myself, but we have no instructions to that effect to my knowledge. We are under the command of the Captain.
9130. (The Commissioner.) Do you sign on with the ship's officer's? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

9131. You cannot work day and night? - No.
9132. If there had been another operator on this boat to have taken your place when you went to bed at 12 o'clock? - Half-past 11.
9133. He would have got this C.Q.D. signal sent out from the "Titanic"? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. LEWIS.

9134. Do I understand you are on the ship's articles? - Yes.
9135. I take it only as a matter of form? - To bring us under the Captain's control.
9136. To what extent has he control over you? - The Captain has command over everybody in the ship, has he not? - That is why we have to sign on.
9137. To what extent can he interfere with your duties as an operator? You are in the employ of the Marconi Company? - Yes.
9138. Do you receive instructions from them when engaged, as to your duties? - Well, we have instructions as to our hours; if we want to get into communication with the land, we generally stop up later.
9139. I am not asking the instructions from time to time. I want to know whether you are given instructions when you are first employed as to your duties and so forth - when you are first employed by the Marconi Company? - We are told to take orders from the Captain.
9140. There are certain duties laid down; I presume they give you certain instructions. Do not you have instructions as to your duties on board ship? - Not to my knowledge.
9141. There are no printed instructions issued? - There is one about calling the C.Q. at even hours, so that you can always get somebody at that time.
9142. Are you allowed to get into communication under ordinary circumstances with a ship with another system, say the De Forest system? - Not under ordinary circumstances; we are not supposed to.
9143. Have you had instructions on that matter? - No written instructions.
9144. What sort of instructions have you with regard to communication under ordinary circumstances with ships having other installations? - We are not to communicate with them.
9145. You are not to communicate? - No, except in case of distress or anything like that.
9146. Is that under the International Code? - Perhaps you are not aware; that is by agreement with the different countries? - The only other one is the American one, and America has not come under the International Convention.
9147. America has not come under it? - No.
      The Solicitor-General: We shall call another witness.
9148. (Mr. Lewis.) I will defer that, as I understand another witness will be called. (To the Witness.) When you approached the "Carpathia" did you find any difficulty in getting into communication with her? - Yes.
9149. You tried to communicate did you? - Yes, but I heard him say this; he said that he had picked up twenty boat loads, I think it was.
9150. Did they tell you the same thing as the other boat did, to shut up? I understand you did not think it was rude, but on another occasion another boat told you to shut up. He told you to do the same? - Yes.
9151. You had a communication from the "Frankfurt" and the "Birma," had you? - Yes.
9152. What systems are those? - I am afraid I made a mistake before, because the German company and our company is a combined company really, and we always communicate with them; but with the Americans we are not supposed to.
9153. What system had the German boat? - It is the Telefunken system.
9154. Did I understand you to say it is a joint system? - A joint system, Marconi and the other.
9155. And the "Birma" is the De Forest? - The American De Forest, yes.
9156. (The Commissioner.) The "Birma" is a Russian ship; she has a different system? - Yes.
9157. (Mr. Lewis.) You say that is an American system? - The United Wireless Company of America, so I understand.
9158. Is that the system employed on the "Birma"? - Yes.
9159. Not the De Forest? - It is the same thing.
9160. You had no difficulty with them. Did you ever have any difficulty with those ships by that system? - They jammed us a good deal.
9161. That is in the ordinary course? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. CLEMENT EDWARDS.

9162. When Mr. Stewart came to your cabin was your ship moving? - No.
9163. How soon after he came to your cabin did your ship start moving? - Ten minutes or a quarter of an hour, I think.
9164. Did he say anything to you about a ship being to the southward, would you find out what she was? - No, not to my knowledge.
9165. How soon did you get into touch with the "Carpathia"? - I did not get her until I got nearly alongside of her.
9166. What time was that? - About half-past 8, I think.
9167. From the time you started moving till you got alongside, have you any idea how far you had traveled? - No, I was in my room most of the time, or else I was running up to the bridge.
9168. Could you tell what the revolutions were; whether it was working rapidly or slowly? - I do not think so; I am not much judge of that.
9169. You are not able to judge? - No, I know the ship was trembling a bit through hitting the ice.

Examined by Mr. COTTER.

9170. Is it not the fact that she was supplied every trip with a chart of the North Atlantic? - Yes.
9171. Have you a copy of the chart you had on the "Californian"? - No, but that chart is only amongst ourselves. They are square charts. They are not made out like ordinary charts.
9172. I want to look at the chart? - We are not marked on that chart because we have not got a regular run.
9173. But the "Titanic" would be marked on it. First class passenger ships would be marked on that, giving the positions going across the Western Ocean? - I do not know. I have not got one of the "Titanic."

Page 206

9174. Did you have a chart at all? - No.
9175. Have you seen a Marconi chart? - I should think so.
9176. You had none on the "Californian"? - I had got some.
9177. When did you get it? - The other trip before.
9178. The voyage you were on I mean? - The trip before that.
9179. You got none for the last trip? - No.
9180. Is it not the fact that you get them every trip? - Yes, it was an oversight on my part.
9181. So that you can locate a ship and get some idea of the radius she is in in the Western Ocean? - It is a chart made out so that we can know for our own convenience when to expect communications from other ships, but you cannot say that a certain ship is going to be there at a certain time.
9182. But within a range of 100 miles or so you would have an idea where to pick her up? - Yes.
9183. And you had not got a chart? - No, I had got a South Atlantic chart because I made a mistake. We went to New Orleans on the first trip, and the next trip we came back to London; we did not go back to Liverpool; and in the hurry of getting off again. I did not get another chart.
9184. You took no chart? - No.
9185. If you had had a chart with the "Titanic" on it, it would have given you a better idea where she was than you had? - No, it would not at all.
9186. What is the use of the chart then? - Simply to show us when to expect communications with other ships.
9187. That is the point. At a certain time she would be in a certain place? - You cannot say a ship will be in a certain place at a certain time.
9188. It would give you the radius; I do not mean the miles? - It would give you the longitude West.

Examined by Mr. DUNLOP.

9189. With regard to the distance at which you say the "Titanic" was when you got into communication with her, did you give evidence at the Court of Inquiry in America? - Yes.
9190. And you remember in answer to Senator Smith, saying this, "You cannot tell by the strength of the signals where anybody is"? - "You cannot tell exactly" were my words.
9191. Can you tell within 100 miles? - It is very hard to say. There is some peculiarity in every boat. You can tell she is getting nearer by the strength of the signals or something like that.
9192. When you were communicating with the "Titanic" on the Sunday, whether she was 100 miles away or 200, you could not tell from the sounds of the message which she sent to you, could you? - You cannot tell exactly; it is impossible.
9193. Did you say further, when referring to the message that you received from the "Titanic": "I thought he was very much south of me, because we were bound for Boston and we were north of the track; we were following the track of the 'Parisian'"? Do you remember saying that? - Yes, the captain told me to expect the "Titanic" to be away to the southward of us.
9194. When you said that the "Titanic" was near to you, within your radius, do you think she was? - I could not tell.
9195. You could not tell within 100 miles or 200 miles? - No, you cannot tell.
9196. All you thought you could tell was that the "Titanic" appeared to be the nearest vessel to you that had wireless telegraphy with which you could correspond? - Yes, that was my view.

Re-examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL.

9197. If you get within communication of a ship which has wireless telegraphy, unless you know whether its installation is a strong one or a weak one, have you any means of seeing whether she is very near or whether she is further off? - Well, you could tell by the strength. If she is a very long way off and you have tuned accurately to her, and you find her signals are very weak, you can say she is a good distance off.
9198. Does not it depend on the strength of her own discharge as well as upon the strength of the signals that you receive? - Yes.
9199. So that you need to know whether she has a strong installation or not? - But you can always tell by the sound of the spark. A strong installation has a singing spark; a coil set has a bad spark.
9200. I think I heard you say, "I heard the 'Titanic' long before I got her"? - Yes.
9201. You could tell that she was sending out messages though you were not able to respond to them, is that it? - The reason I did not try and get her before that was he was working, he was busy with different ships, and all the rest of it. You have to wait before you start. The bigger ship, the faster ship, is the controlling ship; therefore he would be senior to myself.
9202. That is the rule, is it? - Yes.
9203. And as you had heard the "Titanic" for some time, could you tell us from what you heard whether she was getting nearer to you as time went on? - Yes.
      1. 9203a. Was she? - Yes.
9204. You say you continued to hear her until you turned in at half-past 11? - Yes.
9205. When you turned in, from what you could hear of her, was she nearer to you than she had been before? - Yes, her signals were stronger, getting much better.
9206. Very much stronger? - Yes.
9207. I think this is what Mr. Cotter referred to when he spoke of a communication chart. (Holding up a chart.) Yes, that has only the longitude W. marked on it. You could not tell exactly where a ship is. (The chart was handed to the Commissioner.)
9208. It is not a navigation chart, or a geographical chart? - No, it is for our own convenience.
9209. It is a diagram? - Yes, you could not call it a map.
9210. Suppose a ship leaves Europe on a particular day and is due in America on a subsequent day, and you draw a straight line across, you can tell more or less when she will cross the different meridians? - That is it, exactly.
9211. And of course the steeper the line is the quicker the ship? - Yes.
9212. If it is a flat line it is a very slow ship, that takes a long time to get across; if it is a very steep line it is a quick ship? - Yes.
      The Solicitor-General: Your Lordship sees that on the chart?
      The Commissioner: Yes.
      The Solicitor-General: You say your ship would not be on that at all? - We are not a regular ship.
9213. You do not go a regular journey backwards and forwards? - No.
9214. Does that communication chart enable a man to judge when it is likely that he will get within speaking distance of the different vessels in the Atlantic? - It is simply to give the operator an idea what ships to expect. There is one thing I would like to mention. When the ship is stopped and the dynamos are not going it does not mean that the machine is useless, because I have storage batteries as well. If the ship was going down I should not be able to use the ship's power. I have my own storage batteries.
9215. You are speaking now of what was probably happening on the "Titanic"? - Yes.
9216. You have storage batteries as well as dynamos? - Yes.

Page 207

9217. Supposing the dynamos on a ship like the "Titanic" stopped and you could not use the current which they make, you would then have recourse to your storage batteries? - Yes.
9218. Would they be as powerful? - The storage batteries are not so powerful, no, but I have got 200 miles with them.

(The Witness withdrew.)

The Solicitor-General: From the "Californian" there is this donkeyman, Gill, who is not here at present, and who gave evidence in America. I have three or four other "Californian" witnesses, but it does not appear to me they would add anything.
The Commissioner: Of course, I do not know what they have got to say; you must exercise your discretion.
The Solicitor-General: I have done my best to decide whether they would, from any point of view, add anything, and I do not think so, and therefore we do not propose to call any more unless Mr. Dunlop wants them.
The Commissioner: Do you want any more, Mr. Dunlop?
Mr. Robertson Dunlop: No, my Lord, I do not think they add anything.
The Solicitor-General: What should the "Californian" witnesses do?
The Commissioner: As far as I am concerned, they may go. I do not want them. I do not suppose anyone else does. Do you want them, Mr. Dunlop?
Mr. Robertson Dunlop: No.
The Commissioner: Very well, they may go. They are going to sea. I understand.
Mr. Robertson Dunlop: Yes, they are sailing on Saturday.
The Commissioner: I do not think it is necessary to keep them.

JAMES HENRY MOORE.

Examined by Mr. BUTLER ASPINALL.

9219. Do you hold a master's certificate? - Yes.
9220. On the 14th of April were you master of the "Mount Temple"? - Yes.
9221. Is she one of the Canadian Pacific Railway fleet? - Yes.
9222. What size is she? - 6,661 tons register.
9223. And on what voyage was she? - West.
9224. What voyage - where was she going? - West, on our sixty-second voyage west.
9225. Is she fitted with a Marconi installation? - Yes.
9226. On the 12th April did you receive a message from the "Corinthian" informing you that there was ice? - On the 13th April.
9227. Where was that ice? - 42° 15' N. and 49° 48 W.; 41° 25W' N., 50° 20' W.
9228. In consequence of that information did you alter your course? - I did.
9229. When you got that information what course were you on? - About S. 65° W.
9230. And in consequence of that information to what did you alter your course? - Just a little to the southward of that, because I went straight down to 50° W.; instead of going down to 52° and 47° W., I went down to 50° W. and 41° 20' N.
9231. Why did you make that alteration in your course? - On account of the ice being there.
9232. You thought it safer to do so? - Safer to do so; yes.
9233. Now, I want to take your mind on to Sunday evening or rather Monday morning, the 15th April. On the early morning of the 15th did you get information from your Marconi operator in connection with the "Titanic"? - Yes.
9234. What was the information he gave you? - That the "Titanic" was sending C.Q.D. signals saying she was in distress and had struck an iceberg and wanted assistance.
9235. I think telling you that the "Titanic's" position was 41° 46' N., 50° 14' W.? - The first position I got was 41° 46' N., 50° 24' W. It was afterwards corrected to 41° 44' N. and 50° 14' W.
9236. In consequence of that information, did you proceed towards that position? - I immediately turned the ship round and steered east.
9237. At that time was your ship in ice or not? - No. I had not seen any ice at all up to that time.
9238. Later on, I think, about 3.25, did you meet pack ice? - Yes; I had met scattered ice before that, but that was the time I met the heavier ice.
9239. I think from that time onwards you continued to meet heavy ice? - Oh, yes.
9240. And at about daylight did you come up to the position? - In the vicinity of that position.
9241. In the vicinity of the position you had been given? - Yes.
9242. Did you see any signs of wreckage? - None whatever.
9243. And were you as you were proceeding to get there getting messages from various steamers as to this disaster? - Yes.
9244. And I think shortly before 8 a.m. you came in sight of the "Carpathia" and the "Californian"? - Yes.
9245. Now I want to ask you with regard to two matters I think you mentioned in your evidence in America. Whilst you were on your way to the position which had been given to you as to the disaster of the "Titanic," did you fall in with a small schooner? - Well, I could not say it was a small schooner or a large one. I simply saw the green light of a sailing vessel.
9246. I want you to tell me a little more about it. At what time was that? - Shortly after 3 o'clock.
9247. How far do you think you were from the place where the "Titanic" foundered? - At that time?
9248. Yes? - I should think about 15 or 16 miles.
9249. Were you on your bridge at the time? - All of the time.
9250. You saw a green light? - Yes, of a sailing vessel.
9251. Did you see the ship herself? - Not at all; it was dark.
9252. You could only see the green light, and I suppose beyond that you know nothing more about the schooner? - No.
9253. Later on did you see a light or lights of any other vessel? - I had seen the lights of a vessel proceeding the same way, but steering a little more to the southward than mine; I could see a stern light.
9254. At what time was that? - Shortly after we turned round.
9255. That is earlier than this. About what time was that? - Say one - between one and half-past one.
9256. You only saw a stern light? - We saw a stern light, and then the masthead lights as she was crossing our bows to the southward.
9257. Beyond that you know nothing of her? - I saw her afterwards in the morning, when it was daylight. She was a foreign vessel - at least, I took her to be a foreign vessel. She had a black funnel with a white band with some device upon it, but I did not ascertain her name.
9258. How are you able to say that the vessel that was showing you a stern light was the vessel you saw at daylight? - We saw her all the time.
9259. You kept her under observation? - Yes.
9260. Was she going west? - She was going east.

Page 208

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

9261. Have you instructions from your company as to what to do when you meet ice? - We are not to enter field ice under any conditions.
9262. Just tell us what your instructions are? - I have not got them here; they do not happen to be in these sailing orders although I have them. Those instructions we usually get that we are not to enter field ice, no matter how light it may appear.
9263. Not even in daylight? - At any time. We are not to enter field ice at any time, no matter how light it may appear.
9264. When you got warning there was ice ahead, what precautions did you adopt? - I simply steered down. I went down further to the southward.
9265. Did you decrease your speed? - Not at all; it was daylight.
9266. What is your highest speed? - About 11 knots.
9267. Do you make any change in the lookout? - If we expect to see ice we always double the lookout.
9268. On this occasion, in daylight, when you were warned there was ice ahead, did you double the look-out? - No, because I made sure I could pass that ice.
9269. At night, even going at 11 knots, do you double the look-out? - No, unless we expect to see ice.
9270. If you expect to see ice, do you double the look-out? - Oh, yes.
9271. When you double the look-out, just explain to my Lord what you do? - Put an extra hand on the forecastle head, besides the look-out in the crow's-nest.
9272. In ordinary circumstances have you two men in the - Only one.
9273. And one on the forecastle head? - Yes, or on the forward bridge. We have a look-out on the forward bridge.
      The Commissioner: Not in ordinary circumstances.
9274. (Mr. Scanlan.) No. (To the Witness.) In ordinary circumstances have you any man stationed at the forecastle head? - No.
9275. Supposing there was ice ahead of you, would you double the look-out? - Certainly.
      The Commissioner: I think you will have to give up that evidence.
      Mr. Scanlan: I think your Lordship will observe that I want to make this point, that in any circumstances of danger there should be a look-out man on the forecastle head as well as in the crow's-nest.
      The Commissioner: I understand that point.
9276. (Mr. Scanlan - To the Witness.) Supposing there happened to be a haze ahead, would you then put a look-out man on the forecastle head? - Yes.
9277. Would you diminish your speed if there was a haze ahead? - Not without it was so thick that we could not see a safe distance ahead.
9278. What lifeboats do you provide? - We had 20 lifeboats when we left London.
9279. And how many passengers? - 1,466; I believe that is about the number.
9280. And how many crew had you?
9281. (The Commissioner.) How many people altogether had you on board? - About 1,609; that is the crew and passengers.
      The Commissioner: I did not hear how many passengers and how many crew.
9282. (Mr. Scanlan.) He said 1,466 passengers, my Lord. (To the Witness.) And what is the total of the crew? - 143 of the crew; that makes 1,609 altogether.
9283. Now, what is the capacity of each of your lifeboats? - On an average about 49 persons.
9284. You have lifeboat accommodation for 1,000? - Yes.
9285. And that is the extreme? - That is the extreme.
9286. Have you not increased your lifeboat accommodation? - We are increasing it now.
9287. What kind of boats are you supplying? - The ordinary lifeboats.
9288. (The Commissioner.) Where are you registered? - In Liverpool.
9289. Then I suppose you comply with the Board of Trade regulations? - Yes, my Lord.
9290. (Mr. Scanlan.) You are supplying now additional lifeboats? - Yes.
9291. Is that with a view of providing lifeboat accommodation for every soul on board? - Yes.
9292. Explain what class of boats you are providing? - Ordinary wooden lifeboats, and also the Berthon boats - at least, not Berthon boats but the semi-collapsible boats.
9293. Not the Englehardt? - I believe they are to be Chambers boats - a great number of them are to be Chambers boats, and then we will have two or three Berthon boats.
9294. Are the lifeboats sufficiently stout in their construction to live through a heavy sea? - Yes; they are approved by the Board of Trade.
9295. (The Commissioner.) That may be a different thing. Are those lifeboats, in your opinion, of any use in a rough sea? - Oh, yes, my Lord.
9296. Because we have been told by other people that the lifeboats on the "Titanic" would have been of no value in a rough sea? - I believe my lifeboats are well built, and they are very buoyant; and they would be able to live in almost everything, my Lord.
9297. It is not so much living; it is getting down from the deck to the water with a vessel rolling or pitching, or whatever it may be. Is it a practical thing to get these lifeboats down from the deck to the water with a ship standing 90 feet above the water? - I should say it is a very dangerous operation, because if there was any rolling of the ship and the boat came back against the ship's side, I am afraid there would not be any boat left, not at that great height.
9298. (Mr. Scanlan.) Even with a swell on, a fairly heavy roll, could not you lower your boats from the boat deck of the "Mount Temple"? - We could lower them down, but if the ship was rolling very heavily, you can understand, if the ship was swinging, the boats would come with a heavy swing against the ship's side.
9299. For strength and durability how do your lifeboats compare with the coastguard lifeboats? - I cannot say; I never examined any of them.
9300. But you are aware that in great storms these boats go out to the rescue? - Yes.
9301. You do not know anything of the construction of those? - No.
9302. Or how yours compare with them? - No.
9303. In order that a lifeboat may be serviceable in a disturbed sea, have you any suggestion to offer as to any method of safely lowering them or taking passengers from a lower deck than the boat deck? - The better plan would be if there is no motion in the ship to take them at the lower deck, because if you put too many people in the boats they are bound to break the boat down.
9304. The back of the boat might break? - The centre will break with a heavy weight. The boat is hung by the two ends.
9305. At what lower deck could the people be taken? - In a ship like the "Titanic," I believe she has doors; the passengers could be taken from there.
9306. Yes, she has doors on the third class deck; but how would you get the passengers lowered from those doors into the boat? - If the doors were in a line with the boats they could easily pass through the doors into the boats.
9307. Do you think it would be a practical suggestion to lower the boat from the boat deck practically empty, and to have your passengers on the third class deck, and to have them let down from the third class deck into the boat? - If the weather permits, and it is practicable.
9308. Could that be done in rough weather? - I do not think so.
9309. Then you have no suggestion as to what could be done to save passengers in rough weather? - No.

Page 209

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

9310. Does ice at sea give any other indication of its approach beyond a coldness in the atmosphere? - In certain cases the atmosphere appears luminous on the horizon.
9311. As a matter of fact, does a haze usually envelop an ice-field? - Not usually.
9312. You said you heard on the morning of the 15th from your operator about the "Titanic" signals? - Yes.
9313. What time did you hear? - 12.30 by my clock.
9314. How many operators have you on board? - One.
9315. He had not turned in at the time? - He had turned in, but he had his ear-pieces on at the time.
9316. He had not divested himself of them. Now would you consider it safe in the neighbourhood of an ice-field, provided your boat had the power, to go ahead at 21 knots an hour? - It would be most unwise to go that speed at nighttime.

Examined by Mr. HOLMES.

9317. Out of the crew of 143, how many were officers? - We had 4 officers.
9318. Four officers under you? - Yes.
9319. And what watches did they keep? - Double watches when near land or in the ice track.
9320. What length of time would that mean? - Four hours on and 4 hours off.
9321. Throughout the day? - Yes, that is when we are in the vicinity of ice or in the vicinity of land.
9322. And in mid-ocean? - We keep single watches.
9323. Four hours on and 8 hours off? - Yes.
9324. You have been asked about the power of these boats to live in the sea. Do you know that recently, when the crew of the "Chesapeake" had to take to their boats, they were for 7 days in mid-Atlantic in their lifeboats? - I had not heard of it.
9325. May we take it that you are increasing your lifeboat accommodation beyond the Board of Trade regulations because you consider those regulations are inadequate? - We are putting sufficient boat accommodation in for all the passengers that we shall carry.
9326. Is that because you consider the present Board of Trade regulations are inadequate? - That is right.

Examined by Mr. CLEMENT EDWARDS.

9327. What in your view is the right number of men for manning a lifeboat capable of holding 70 people? - You ought to have at least four seamen in it.
9328. When you say four seamen, do you mean four A. B.'s? - No, seamen. We could put firemen in there. Very often firemen can pull a boat just as well as a sailor.
9329. You say four seamen. What number of other hands do you think in addition? - Those are sufficient for the oars and one officer; someone to take charge of the boat, some petty officer or certificated officer which ever boat it is.
9330. One qualified officer and four seamen who are capable? - I do not say a qualified officer; I say a petty officer; it may be a certified officer or a petty officer.

Examined by Mr. COTTER.

9331. When you left London on your last voyage did you have any boat drill before you left? - Not before we left.
9332. You had no boat drill at all? - No, not before we left.
9333. Was there a Board of Trade Surveyor there? - We passed the ship on the 27th of March; the Board of Trade passed her on that date, the 27th March, 1912.
9334. Did the Board of Trade Surveyor examine the boats at all? - Yes.
9335. Did he see one swung out and lowered? - I cannot say; I was not on board. I was away home. I live in Liverpool.
9336. You are speaking of a boat that holds 49? - Yes.
9337. And you say four seamen would be sufficient for that. How many seamen would be required for a boat which would hold 68?
      The Commissioner: I thought he answered that.
9338. (Mr. Cotter.) He was speaking of a boat with four oars, I think? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: He answered the question with regard to a boat holding 70.
9339. (Mr. Cotter.) You were not speaking of a boat which would hold 70? - No, 49.
      The Commissioner: Then I mistook the question which you put, Mr. Edwards. Did not you put a boat which held 70?
      Mr. Clement Edwards: Yes, evidently I did not make my question perfectly clear.
      The Commissioner: It was perfectly clear to me.
9340. (Mr. Cotter - To the Witness.) A boat that would hold 68 people would require a larger number of seamen? - Yes; I should put six men in a boat like that.
9341. (The Commissioner.) I want to understand this. Supposing the sea was quite smooth and the question was about saving the passengers, I suppose the more crew you put into a boat the less passengers you could put in? - That is true.
9342. If the sea were perfectly smooth, would you then in order to save more passengers put in a less crew? - Certainly, my Lord.
9343. (Mr. Cotter.) Is it not a fact that a boat that will carry 68 people will require nine? - You can have six at the oars and an officer in charge.
9344. There are four seats in the "Titanic" boats? - You want to save passengers. If you are in a cargo steamer and you are only saving your crew, then you will have so many men allotted to these boats; you will have so many firemen, and so many seamen, and so many stewards, and so many engineers.
9345. Is it not the fact that you have the same thing in the first class passenger liners if you have proper drill? - That is quite right.
9346. Do you have bulkhead drill? - We have no doors in our bulkheads. We have no doors in them except in the engine room in the tunnels. There are two watertight doors there.
9347. Only down below in the tunnel? - Yes.
9348. And she carries how many passengers? - I have had 1,800 people in her.
9349. 1,800 people? - Yes, passengers.
9350. (The Commissioner.) It was 1,600 before? - I have carried over 1,800 passengers.
9351. (Mr. Cotter.) What is the deck you have your bulkhead doors in? - The main deck.
9352. You have them along the main deck? - No, we have no bulkhead doors at all. They are solid. We have bulkheads rising to the main deck.
9353. But you have entrances through them? - No, we have not.
9354. How do the people get along the deck? - They cannot get through there; they have to come up.
9355. (The Commissioner.) They have to climb up over the top of the bulkhead? - We have ladders up there. When we have steerage passengers there they must go up on to the main deck. We have no doors through the bulkhead at all.
9356. (Mr. Cotter.) They have to climb right over the top. As a matter of fact, they have to go upstairs to go downstairs? - They have to live downstairs, and what need is there to go up and then down again?

Page 210

9357. Take the main deck. She has other decks besides the main deck? - Yes.
9358. But go along the main deck - ? - We have a sheltered deck. We have only three decks, we have not got nine, and the three decks are the ones which have bulkheads, and those bulkheads have no doors in them except down in the engine room in the tunnels.

Examined by Mr. LEWIS.

9359. Do you consider that a good plan - a bulkhead of that description? - I do.
9360. Do you know if the look-out men's eyes are tested in any way? - Yes.
9361. Who by? - The ship's doctor.
9362. Is that done every voyage? - Yes.
9363. Do you know whether that is a regulation of the Board of Trade? - I am not aware of any.
9364. It is simply for your own satisfaction? - Yes.
9365. On your boats I am not sure whether you have boat drills? - We have boat drills every passage - once every passage.
9366. I understood you to say that you think one officer and four seamen sufficient to man a lifeboat of your size? - That is if you wish to save any passengers.
9367. How many seamen would you say would be required to get the boats ready and lowered? - It just depends how the boats are fixed. With some boats all you have to do is to throw a fender down when your falls are held tight and your boats are shoved right out; it will not take more than two or four men; two men could lower them.
9368. How many A. B.'s have you on your boat? - We have 25 hands on deck.
9369. In a case of emergency how long do you think it would take to lower your 20 boats? - In the case of going back to the "Titanic" we took about an hour to put them all out. That is, the boats that were under the davits.
9370. I did not catch your answer? - We went back to the "Titanic's" assistance. We put all the boats out, with the exception of two. They were all ready for lowering in less than an hour, as far as I could judge.
9371. All ready for lowering? - Yes.
9372. But there would be the question of lowering? - That is not a very difficult thing.
9373. How long do you say it would take to get your boats absolutely ready and put down into the water the whole 20, remembering, of course, that you lose your men as you put them in? - You would have to get the men there. If that is the case, you could call up the sailors; you could call up your firemen.
9374. In the case of emergency you would call up your firemen to assist you that could be spared? - Certainly.
9375. Did you have your regulation number of A. B.'s on your boat, as required by the Board of Trade? - Yes.
9376. None extra? - None extra - at least, I do not think so.
9377. Do you intend putting on extra men now? - We have more than the Board of Trade calls for.
9378. With these extra boats do you intend to put on extra men? - I do not know; we have 16 able seamen.

Examined by Mr. LAING.

9379. Have you had a long experience in the North Atlantic trade? - Twenty-seven years.
9380. And do you run to Montreal in the summer and St. John's in the winter? - Yes.
9381. Have you ever tried using binoculars for your look-out? - No.
9382. Is that a new idea to you? - Yes, it is.
9383. With regard to yourself, on this voyage did you get a Marconi notice that ice was about? - Yes.
9384. Was it fine clear weather? - Yes.
9385. Did you keep your speed? - I did.
9386. I suppose in time you saw ice? - I saw no ice at all until I went back to the "Titanic's" assistance.
9387. You saw nothing until you turned to go South? - Until I turned to go North and East.
9388. Was the ice further south than you had known it? - I never knew it to be so far south before. Not in my whole experience of 27 years, I never knew it so far South.
9389. And you are constantly running backwards and forwards? - For 27 years.
9390. With regard to your ship, how many passengers can she carry when you are full up? How many are you allowed to carry? - I do not know. There is no limit put on. We were to have taken 2,200 from Antwerp this last voyage.
9391. (The Commissioner.) Passengers? - Yes, my Lord.
9392. Then it was contemplated that you might have passengers and crew to the extent of 2,300, or something like that? - Passengers alone, my Lord.
9393. And crew? - We carried, I suppose, about 160 crew.
9394. That would be nearly 2,500? - Yes.
9395. And the lifeboat accommodation would not be increased? - No.
9396. (Mr. Laing.) With regard to the look-out, do you put a man on the look-out on the forecastle head in foggy weather? - Yes.
9397. And hazy weather? - Yes.
9398. Weather in which you blow your whistle; is that what you mean? - Even when we do not. When it is really necessary to blow the whistle we always put a man in the crow's-nest, and when we meet ice we put a man forward on the look-out on the forecastle head.
9399. That is in hazy weather? - Yes.
9400. Do you usually carry one man in the crow's-nest? - At nighttime; not in clear weather in the daytime.
9401. In the daytime you do not have a look-out at all? - We have an officer on the bridge.
9402. But you do not have a man in the crow's-nest or one on the forecastle head? - No.
9403. But at night you have, as a rule, a man in the crow's-nest? - Yes.
9404. But, if it is hazy weather, a man on the bow as well? - Yes.
9405. Your instructions seem to be that you are not to enter field ice? - Not to enter it on any account.
9406. You meet constantly field ice on your way to Montreal, do you not? - Yes, but we go round it.
9407. And when you say it is not wise to go 21 1/2 knots - I think your expression was in the neighbourhood of ice - did you mean field ice? - Field ice.
9408. (The Commissioner.) And you have never gone through field ice except when you went to the position where the "Titanic" was lost? - No; I did not pass any ice at all.
9409. You never in your life have been in field ice? - Yes, I have been through field ice when I was in other Companies, my Lord, but not with the Canadian Pacific Railway.
9410. Did you consider it was dangerous when you were with the other Company? - Of course, we took every precaution. If it was very heavy, we would not attempt to go through it.
9411. But you did go through it? - We did go through it, but still we would never attempt it if it were heavy. Light scattered field ice we would go through without any trouble.
9412. But with the present company you would not even do that? - We have instructions not to go into field ice no matter how light it may appear. On my voyage before last I went 30 miles south to clear some ice. I saw some ice and went down 30 miles to the south, and I wrote to my Marine Superintendent and told him what I had done and he said I was quite right in doing so, my Lord.

Page 211

Re-examined by Mr. BUTLER ASPINALL.

9413. For what part were you bound? - St. John's, New Brunswick.
9414. At the time you received the information from the Marconi operator that the "Titanic" was sending out messages of distress, what was your latitude and longitude? - 41° 25' N., 51° 14' W.
9415. If so, you were south of the position from which the "Titanic" was sending messages? - Yes. I steered N. 65° E. true, from my position to the position the "Titanic" gave me.

(The Witness withdrew.)

JOHN DURRANT, Sworn.

Examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL.

9416. (The Solicitor-General.) This is the Marconi operator on the "Mount Temple," my Lord. Your Lordship will find that he has heard a great number of messages going to and from the "Titanic," and he therefore can give us in chronological order a great deal of the story so far as it is told by means of those wireless messages. (To the Witness.) Is your name John Durrant? - Yes.
9417. Are you Marconi operator on board the "Mount Temple"? - Yes.
9418. Which was bound, as we know, for St. John's, New Brunswick. Were you the only Marconi operator on board? - Yes.
9419. And in your ordinary day's work what time do you turn in? - Never before 1 a.m. I have a good sleep after the midday meal, and I never turn in before 1 a.m..
9420. You take a time off? - After my midday meal for about three hours.
9421. And then you can keep on working till 1 o'clock in the morning? - Yes.
9422. At what time do you start work the next morning? - Half-past seven.
9423. What is the range of your Marconi installation on the "Mount Temple"? - I get about 150 miles in the daytime, and something over 200 at night.
9424. Why is it that it is more at night? - They say it is the sun's rays cause refraction.
9425. Anyhow it is some scientific reason? - Yes.
9426. I suppose you are on the Ship's Articles of the "Mount Temple"? - Yes.
9427. But are you in the employ of the Marconi Company? - I am.
9428. And does the Marconi Company require you to keep a log? - Yes.
9429. A record of the messages which you send and receive and overhear? - Yes - not overhear.
9430. Only send and receive? - Yes.
9431. I know we are coming to some you did overhear. I think it is called a proces verbal? - Yes.
9432. Have you your copy there? - Yes.
9433. You have a copy there of what I have here? - Yes.
9434. Is this the proces verbal of the "Mount Temple" which you kept? - Yes, of that voyage.
      The Solicitor-General: I think the clear course is to ask this gentleman, in order the entries which appear to be significant and important. Of course, there are a great many others, which only confuse them. I will take them out in order of time, if I may, right through.
      The Commissioner: Can you let me have a copy of that document, or a copy of parts of it?
9435. (The Solicitor-General.) I can give your Lordship what has been extracted from it and I think that will be what your Lordship will wish. (To the Witness.) When one comes to the 14th April, the Sunday, you were on the American side of the Atlantic, and were you keeping New York time in your records? - I was keeping New York time.
9436. We have been told that to get back to ship's time in the sort of latitude where the "Titanic" struck, you would have to add 1 hour and 55 minutes? - In my case it is 1 hour and 46 minutes.
9437. Then if I add 1 hour and 46 minutes to the time you have written down I shall get what your ship's time was? - Yes.
9438. Before I come to the record which you have kept about the disaster, I want to ask this question. Before you heard anything about the "Titanic" having struck, had you received any warning messages about ice? - Yes; I think it was on the 13th, the day before, from the "Corinthian."
9439. The day before? - Yes. I think it was the 13th. My P. V. will tell you.
9440. I thought it was on Friday, the 12th. Will you look and see (handing a document to the Witness.)? - Yes.
9441. I think you will find it is about midnight between the 12th and 13th? - This is when I first had it (pointing out on the document).
9442. Did you notice, when you pointed to it, what was the time? - 8.45.
9443. 8.45 p.m. New York time would be the same thing in your ship's time as half-past ten? - No, we were more to the east at that time; it would be later.
9444. At any rate it would be some time in that evening? - Yes.
9445. And some time on that evening - is it on Saturday? - Yes, you will see it at the top.
9446. Saturday, April 13th, you got a message? - Yes; a formal message from the Captain of the "Corinthian" to the Captain of the "Mount Temple."
9447. Was it simply that they had seen ice? - Yes.
9448. And did you report that to the Captain? - Yes, right away.
9449. Except for that message, did you get any other message about ice up to the time you heard the "Titanic" calling for help? - No.
9450. Now let us take the story in order of time, as you recorded it with the help of your Marconi apparatus. I am going to add 1 hour and 46 minutes to your time, so as to keep your ship's time all the way through? - In this copy I have New York time and ship's time both together.
9451. That is very convenient. Now tell us the ship's time when you first got a message as to the "Titanic" being in distress? - 12.11 a.m.
9452. Just read your account, as you have it there, of that message. - "Titanic" sending C.Q.D. Answer him, but he says, "Cannot read you, old man. Here my position, 41º 46' N. 50º 14' W. Come at once, have struck berg." I advised my captain.
9453. I have before me a document which suggests that he told you he could not read your message. - He did not get my call, but he knew it was somebody calling him, answering his C.Q.D., so he sent his position right away.
9454. That would mean that he told you what the latitude and longitude was? - Yes.
9455. And asked your ship to come at once as he had struck an iceberg? - Yes.
9456. Did you give the message to your captain straight away? - I gave it to the night steward and he took it up.
9457. That is 11 minutes after midnight your time. Is your next entry 10 minutes after that? - Yes.
9458. That would be 21 minutes after midnight? - Yes.
9459. What was it you heard then? - I have got down here, "'Titanic' still calling C.Q.D. is answered by the 'Carpathia' and says 'struck iceberg come to our assistance.' Sends the position."

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9460. Does that mean that you could overhear the "Carpathia" answering the "Titanic"? - Yes.
9461. And could you also overhear the message that the "Titanic" was sending to the "Carpathia"? - Yes.
9462. Did you hear the same latitude and longitude repeated by the "Titanic" to the "Carpathia"? - Yes.
9463. That is 12.21. Then five minutes after that, 12.26, is your next entry "'Titanic' still calling C.Q.D."? Have you noted there about that time that you had turned your ship's course? - Yes.
9464. And started to their help? - Yes; that was about 15 minutes after we got the signal. It may have been sooner.
9465. At any rate by that time you had turned round? - Yes.
9466. Then 8 minutes after that, I think that will be 12.34, just over half-past 12? - Yes.
9467. Did you hear the "Frankfurt" answering the "Titanic"? - Yes.
9468. That is the North German-Lloyd boat? - Yes.
9469. Did you hear the "Titanic" giving her position to the "Frankfurt"? - Yes.
9470. Now, have you got your record of what he said? - Yes. "'Titanic' gives position and asks, 'are you coming to our assistance?' 'Frankfurt' replies, 'What is the matter with you?' 'Titanic' says, 'We have struck iceberg and sinking. Please tell captain to come'; and then 'Frankfurt' replied, 'O.K. Will tell the bridge right away.' Then the 'Titanic' said, 'O.K., yes, quick.'"
9471. (The Commissioner.) What does "O.K." mean? - All right.
9472. (The Solicitor-General.) It spells "Orl korrect." (To the Witness.) That was the first time you had overheard a message from the "Titanic" that she was sinking? - Yes.
9473. Just about 25 minutes to 1? - That is it.
9474. Then following on that, I think another 8 minutes later, did you hear her calling S.O.S.? - Yes.
9475. Is there any difference from the point of view of urgency between this C.Q.D. call and the S.O.S call? - Myself, I should say that C.Q.D. would be more quickly jumped at than S.O.S.; C.Q.D. got a good name in the time of Jack Binns, and the public know C.Q.D. is a distress call.
      The Commissioner: Can you tell me what it means?
      The Attorney-General: Yes. "Save our souls."
9476. (The Solicitor-General.) They are both used, are they? - Yes.
9477. As I understand, you heard the "Titanic" about a quarter to 1 sending both signals? - Yes.
9478. After that could you hear the "Titanic" talking to these other ships? - Yes, she was calling the "Olympic."
9479. When was she calling the "Olympic"? - 12.43 ship's time.
9480. (The Solicitor-General.) If your Lordship has a copy corresponding to mine - I think you have - the bottom entry on the first page is "10.57 MGY calling MKC," and "MKC" means the "Olympic." (To the Witness.) What is the time equivalent to? - 10.57 is 12.43.
9481. Now tell us your next entry? - The "Caronia."
9482. That is another ship she got in touch with? - Yes, a long distance away.
9483. What was the time you heard her talking to the "Caronia"? - 12.45 ship's time. It is the "Caronia," the Cunard Line.
9484. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) You got one a minute later, 12.46. What is that? - "'Titanic' calling 'Virginian' and C.Q.D."
9485. That is the Allan Line, the "Virginian"? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: This boat, the "Mount Temple," was never in a position to render active assistance.
      The Solicitor-General: It was 49 miles away, and it was making for her.
      The Commissioner: She could not possibly have reached her.
9486. (The Solicitor-General.) No, not possibly. She was doing her best. (To the Witness.) If you had broken in and tried to talk to the "Titanic" yourself, you would only have interrupted her talking to other people? - I should.
9487. So you keep it and only listen? - Yes, I never said a word after I got his position.
9488. And you told your captain of the "Mount Temple" the place, and then you spent your time in recording what you could hear? - Yes, that is the first rule in wireless telegraphy to avoid interference.
9489. (The Commissioner.) And all this time you were making your way towards the position of the "Titanic"? - Yes, the captain had doubled the watch down below.
9490. (The Solicitor-General.) Now pass on to the next entry I think you have got a record of the "Titanic" speaking to the "Olympic"? - Yes.
9491. What time is that? - 1.6 ship's time. "'Titanic' is answered by the 'Olympic' and tells him 'Captain says, 'Get your boats ready,' going down fast at the head.'"
9492. That is six minutes past 1? - Yes.
9493. "Captain says, 'Get your boats ready, going down fast at the head.'"? - Yes.
9494. You notice that message which you hear is within a few minutes of an hour from the time when you had first heard the "Titanic's" C.Q.D.? - Yes.
9495. Six minutes past 1. Then five minutes after that, 1.11, did you hear a message from the "Frankfurt"? - Yes.
9496. Just read it? - "Our Captain will go for you."
9497. That is the message sent to the "Titanic"? - Yes.
9498. And the next one? - Two minutes afterwards the "Titanic" was working the "Baltic."
9499. I think that is the first time we have mentioned the "Baltic," is it not? - Yes.
9500. That is 13 minutes past 1? - Yes.
9501. You have a record of that going on again three minutes later? - Yes.
9502. Now, 1.21 is it not? - 1.21. "'Olympic' sends M.S.G. to 'Titanic.'"
9503. Read that? - I did not take that. That was an official message which I am not supposed to take.
9504. At any rate you could hear the "Olympic" was sending messages to the "Titanic"? - Yes; it was an official message, something about lighting up all boilers.
9505. You could hear it was something of the sort? - Yes.
9506. We have independent evidence that that message was sent. The Captain of the "Olympic" sent a message they were lighting up every boiler and making for her as fast as they could. Did you hear the reply of the "Titanic" at 1.21? - Yes.
9507. What was it? - "We are putting the women off in boats."
9508. Then six minutes after that, at 1.27 - what was it you heard at 1.27? - "'Titanic' calling C.Q.D. says 'engine room flooded.'"
9509. And two minutes after that, 1.29? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: Can you indicate to me where the water which is referred to here would be?
9510. (The Solicitor-General.) My friend Sir Robert Finlay suggests to me that I perhaps should ask the witness to look at the record to be sure he has got the actual words. (To the Witness.) Have you got your record there before you for 1.27? - Yes.
9511. Just read it exactly as it is? - You mean what I have in my log?
9512. Yes? - "'Titanic' calling C.Q.D., says 'engine room flooded.'"
      The Commissioner: That is what you read to me just now.
9513. (The Solicitor-General.) Yes. Let us follow what that means. (To the Witness.) Was it a message that was being sent by the "Titanic" to any particular ship, or was it being sent all the way round? - It was a general call, I take it.

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9514. A general message? - Yes. When she took up the "Olympic" or the "Baltic," it was just "C.Q.D. engine room flooded."
9515. Just like when a ship sends C.Q.D. to anybody in call, so they sent that message to anybody in call? - Yes.
9516. Up to that time, except the C.Q.D. and S.O.S. message, had all the messages been addressed to particular ships? - No, he only sent one official message - no, he never sent any official message. The "Olympic" sent one to him.
9517. And when you say the message was "engine room flooded," does that mean you heard the word "engine" and the word "room" spelt out? - Yes; no abbreviation or code, or anything. Your Lordship will remember there are two engine rooms. The one where Mr. Asquith has the pointer is the more forward of the two - the reciprocating engine room, which drives the port and the starboard shaft.
      The Commissioner: Then comes the turbine.
      The Solicitor-General: Yes, behind that.
      The Commissioner: And behind it, again, is the dynamo?
      The Solicitor-General: Yes.
      The Commissioner: Do I understand from this Marconi operator that the water had by this time found its way aft very considerably?
      The Solicitor-General: Assuming the message was accurate.
      The Commissioner: Did this message come by any code word?
9518. (The Solicitor-General.) I will ask him, my Lord. I understand not. (To the Witness.) Is there any single code word for "engine room"? - No; it was spelt out letter by letter. There was no abbreviation or code word in the message.
9519. (The Commissioner.) This was spelt out just as we read it here? - Yes.
9520. "Engine room flooded"? - Yes.
9521. (The Solicitor-General.) That is 1.27, your time? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: This is a little more than half an hour before the ship disappeared.
9522. (The Solicitor-General.) I do not know how much correction would be necessary from the point of view of time. I thought one might perhaps ask him. (To the Witness.) Of course your ship was getting nearer to the "Titanic" all that time? - Yes.
9523. And she had been steaming towards the "Titanic" for an hour? - Yes, since 12.26, I have here.
9524. Since 12.26 and this is 1.27? - Yes.
9525. She had been steaming towards her for just an hour? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: You are giving us New York time, are you not?
      The Solicitor-General: No, my Lord, all the way through I am correcting the New York time to the ship's time, that is to say to this ship's time.
      The Commissioner: The black figures printed here are New York time?
      The Solicitor-General: Yes.
      The Commissioner: And the figures I am marking as you go along are ship's time?
      The Solicitor-General: Yes. I have no doubt they did not correct the ship's time while rushing to the assistance of the "Titanic," but it is the ship's time of the "Mount Temple" at the time she gets the C.Q.D. message.
      The Commissioner: It would make very little difference surely; there would not be much difference.
9526. (The Solicitor-General.) No. (To the Witness.) What did you do on the "Mount Temple" to correct your time? Is it corrected at noon? - Yes, and I believe it is put on or back some time at night about 10, but that does not affect me at all.
9527. No, of course not. I quite understand. I think your Lordship will find if we have to go into it that the "Olympic" also received this message. I have here the print, and my record is that the "Titanic" says to the "Olympic," "Weather is clear and calm, engine room getting flooded." (To the Witness.) Just look in your record and tell me whether at this time you have any record of the "Titanic" saying anything about the weather? - No, I remember distinctly the "Olympic" asking him, "Captain says how is the sea around there?" and he replied, "Sea calm."
9528. Have not you got that down? - I have that after the "Engine room flooded."
9529. Within two minutes after? - Yes.
9530. And that is a message to the "Olympic"? - Yes.
9531. So that you have recorded within two minutes two statements which the "Olympic" has got recorded as happening at the same time? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: I suppose the "Olympic" would get this message, "engine room flooded"?
      The Solicitor-General: It is recorded by the "Olympic," my Lord.
      The Commissioner: I thought it was a general message.
      The Solicitor-General: Yes, it is sent out to anybody who can hear it.
      The Commissioner: And he heard it?
9532. (The Solicitor-General.) I was not quite accurate in saying the "Olympic" had recorded it. I do not know whether she did or not. What I was looking at was the corresponding procès-verbal of the "Carpathia" and the "Carpathia" has got a record that they heard the "Titanic" answering the "Olympic" and saying, "weather is clear and calm. Engine room getting flooded," (To the Witness.) You cannot tell, I expect, whether it was "engine room getting flooded" or "engine room flooded"? - I took particular care to get all these messages absolutely correct.
9533. You think that is quite correct? - I have it here, and I think it is correct too, "'Titanic' calling C.Q.D., says 'engine room flooded'." And answering the "Olympic's" question, he said, "sea calm."
9534. That takes one down to 1.29? - Yes.
9535. Now, two minutes after that, 1.31, did you hear the "Frankfurt" sending a message? - Yes, he asked, "Are there any boats around you already?"
      The Commissioner: Is that 1.29 or 1.27?
9536. (The Solicitor-General.) 11.41 is the same as 1.27 and 11.43 is the same as 1.29; and 11.45 is therefore the same as 1.31. I was taking them in order, I think. There are three, I am taking the third of those. At 1.31 what was it you heard the "Frankfurt" saying to the "Titanic"? - "Are there any boats around you already?"
9537. Did the "Titanic" make any reply? - No.
9538. Two minutes after that again, 1.33, did you hear the "Titanic" send a further message? - No, I heard the "Olympic" send a message to the "Titanic"; the "Titanic" acknowledged it.
9539. The "Titanic" acknowledged it? - Yes.
9540. I had better ask you now: is that the last message that you heard from the "Titanic"? - Yes.
9541. What is the time? - 11.47 New York time, that is 1.33.
9542. 1.33 your ship's time? - Yes.
9543. (The Commissioner.) You do not know what that message was, the 1.33 message? - I did not take it, but it related to "are you steering south to meet us." It was a message after that description.
9544. That was a message from the "Titanic"? - From the "Olympic" to the "Titanic" asking if he was steering southward to meet him - an official message.
9545. And then you said that the "Titanic" acknowledged it. I want to know whether you hear what the "Titanic" said? - Simply "R.D." which is the code word for "received."
9546. Simply "R.D." acknowledgment? - Yes.
9547. But not saying anything? - No.
9548. (The Solicitor-General.) That is the last message that you hear from this ship. Could you tell at all during this time whether the messages from the "Titanic" were getting fainter? Did you notice that? - No, not in the least.
9549. You were getting nearer to her? - Yes. Allowing for my getting nearer they never got weak at all.
9550. They did not get weak at all, as far as you could see? - No. I presume the flooding of the engine room put the wires out of commission.

Page 214

9551. (The Commissioner.) The flooding of the engine room did what? - Put the wires out of commission, my Lord.
9552. (The Solicitor-General.) If the dynamo which is usually employed for the Marconi is not available, have you got any storage batteries? You have, have you not? - Yes.
9553. Is it usual to have storage batteries? - Yes.
9554. Are the storage batteries kept in the Marconi operator's room? - Yes.
9555. That is high upon the ship? - Yes.
9556. Would he need to change over to get to the storage batteries, or would they come on automatically? - He could do it in a minute.
9557. He could do it at once. Do storage batteries send out as strong a message as the dynamos? - No.
9558. Much weaker? - Yes.
9559. That is 1.33. Then, I think, it was eight minutes after that, that is 1.41, that you heard the "Frankfurt" and the Russian ship the "Birma" calling the "Titanic"? - Yes.
9560. And still there was no reply? - No reply.
9561. At 1.56, four minutes to two, did you hear the "Olympic," the "Frankfurt," and the "Baltic," all calling the "Titanic" and no reply? - And no reply.
9562. Then what is your next entry? I think it is just a quarter of an hour later? - Yes, 2.11, "'Birma' tells 'Frankfurt' he is 70 miles from 'Titanic.'"
9563. This is the "Birma," the Russian ship? - Yes.
9564. "'Birma' tells 'Frankfurt' he is 70 miles from the 'Titanic'"? - Yes.
9565. Just give me the next two; I think they are important? - 2.36 I have "All quiet now."
9566. That is your record? - Yes, "'Titanic' has not spoken since 11.47 p.m."
9567. That means 1.33? - Yes.
9568. That was your record? - Yes.
9569. And then the next one? - 3.11.
9570. Who is this from? - "'Carpathia' calls 'Titanic' and says 'If you are there we are firing rockets.'"
9571. Just read the next two; I think we must have them? - 3.26 "'Carpathia' calling 'Titanic,' no reply." 3.44 "'Birma' tells 'Frankfurt' that he thinks he hears the 'Titanic,' so calls him and says, 'Steaming full speed to you, shall arrive you six in morning. Hope you are safe. We are only 50 miles now.'"
9572. Then I think two minutes after that you heard the "Carpathia" calling for her again? - Yes.
9573. And then an hour later I see you have an entry, 4.46, that is a quarter to five in the morning, "All quiet. We are stopped amongst pack ice." That is to say the "Mount Temple" was?
      The Commissioner: Which is the first message from the "Californian."?
9574. (The Solicitor-General.) I think, my Lord, the first message from the "Californian" in your copy would be numbered 3.25. Just run your eye down. Is not that right? - Yes.
9575. Let us take it down to that point. You have given me the "Carpathia" calling out at 3.46., then 4.46 "all quiet; we are stopped amongst pack ice." That meant the "Mount Temple" is. Then at 4.51 you heard the "Birma" and the "Frankfurt" working.
      The Commissioner: I think the first is 3.25.
9576. (The Solicitor-General.) The next one, 3.20, what is that? - They are still working.
9577. And now the next one? - 3.25, were the "Californian" calls.
9578. What does that correspond to? - 5.11.
9579. That is it. What is it you say? - "Californian" call C.Q. I answer him and tell him the "Titanic" has struck an iceberg and sunk, and give him her position.
9580. That was 5.11 by your time? - Yes.
9581. (The Solicitor-General.) Your Lordship will remember the "Californian" operator. (To the Witness.) Now, does C.Q. simply mean a general call round? - All stations.
9582. So that anybody within range may pick it up and answer it? - That is one of the reasons they altered the distress call.
9583. Because "C.Q." is so easily confused with "C.Q.D."? - Yes.
9584. You have not, I think, got it recorded; do you remember what it was the "Californian" operator asked you at 11 minutes past 5? - He called "C.Q." That was all. He never asked any question at all.
9585. Then you got into touch with him? - Yes.
9586. And you told him the "Titanic" had sunk? - Yes.
9587. And sent him its position? - Yes.
9588. And then I see you have it recorded 15 minutes later, that is at 5.26, that you heard the "Californian" speaking to the "Frankfurt," and the "Frankfurt" sent him the same information? - Yes.
9589. (The Solicitor-General.) That exactly corresponds my Lord. (To the Witness.) I think you heard about 8 o'clock in the morning, your ship's time, from the "Carpathia," that she had rescued - ? - Twenty boat loads.
9590. And, of course, as we know, your ship did her best, but could not get to the spot in time? - No.

(The Witness withdrew.)

(Adjourned to tomorrow at 10.30 o'clock.)