Page 155

Wreck Commissioners' Court.

SCOTTISH HALL,

BUCKINGHAM GATE,

Tuesday 14th May, 1912.

PROCEEDINGS

WIITH

THE RIGHT HON. LORD MERSEY,

Wreck Commissioner of the United Kingdom,

WITH

REAR ADMIRAL THE HON. S. A. GOUGH-CALTHORPE, C.V.O., R.N.,

CAPTAIN A. W. CLARKE,

COMMANDER F. C. A. LYON, R.N.R.,

PROFESSOR J. H. BILES, LL.D., D.Sc.,

MR. E. C. CHASTON, R.N.R.

Acting as Assessors.

ON A FORMAL INVESTIGATION

ORDERED BY THE BOARD OF TRADE INTO THE

LOSS OF THE S. S. "TITANIC."

SEVENTH DAY.

THE RIGHT HON. SIR RUFUS ISAACS, K.C., M.P. (Attorney-General), SIR JOHN SIMON, K.C., M.P. (Solicitor-General), MR. BUTLER ASPINAL, K.C., MR. S. A. T. ROWLATT and MR. RAYMOND ASQUITH (instructed by SIR R. ELLIS CUNLIFFE, Solicitor to the Board of Trade) appeared as Counsel on behalf of the Board of Trade.

THE RIGHT HON. SIR ROBERT FINLAY, K.C., M.P., MR. P. LAING, K.C., MR. MAURICE HILL., K.C., and MR. NORMAN RAEBURN (instructed by Messrs. Hill, Dickinson and Co.), appeared as counsel on behalf of the White Star line.

MR. THOMAS SCANLAN, M.P. (instructed by Mr. Smith, Solicitor), appeared as Counsel on behalf of the National Sailors' and Firemen's Union of Great Britain and Ireland and of the personal representatives of several deceased members of the crew and of survivors who were members of the Union. (Admitted On application.)

MR. B0TTERELL (instructed by Messrs. Botterell and Roche) appeared on behalf of the Chamber of Shipping of the United Kingdom. (Admitted on application.)

MR. THOMAS LEWIS appeared on behalf of the British Seafarers' Union. (Admitted on application.)

MR. L. S. HOLMES (of Messrs. Miller, Taylor and Holmes, of Liverpool) appeared on behalf of the Imperial Merchant Service Guild. (Admitted on application.)

MR. COTTER appeared on behalf of the National Union of Stewards. (Admitted on application.)

MR. HAMAR GREENWOOD, M.P. (instructed by Messrs. Pritchard and Sons), watched proceedings on behalf of the Allan Line Steamship Company.

MR. HAMAR GREENWOOD, M.P. (instructed by Messrs. William A. Crump and Son), watched proceedings for the Canadian Pacific Railway Company.

MR. ROCHE (instructed by Messrs. Charles G. Bradshaw and Waterson) appeared on behalf of the Marine Engineers' Association. (Admitted on application.)

MR. A. CLEMENT EDWARDS. M.P., (instructed by Messrs. Helder, Roberts and Co.), appeared as Counsel on behalf of the Dock, Wharf, Riverside, and General Workers Union of Great Britain and Ireland. (Admitted on application.)

MR. W. D. HARBINSON (instructed by Mr. Farrell) appeared on behalf of the third-class passengers. (Admitted on application.)

Page 156

Sir Robert Finlay: Your Lordship will recollect that I asked that the cross-examination of the witness Hendrickson should stand over until today. After the rising of the Court on Friday I heard that Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon were on their way to this country on board the "Lusitania." They will arrive late to-night. Under those circumstances, if your Lordship approved, I think it would be highly desirable that the cross-examination should be postponed say till Thursday or better Friday, in order that Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon should have an opportunity of making their statement, and taking any steps they think proper.
The Attorney-General: Of course we should not raise any objection. I was going to suggest to my friend that if he will let us know as soon as he can what day he will be ready to go on with him, we will take care to have Hendrickson here.
Sir Robert Finlay: Say Friday.
The Attorney-General: Yes.
The Commissioner: Very well.
The Attorney-General: Your Lordship will remember we were examining Rule, the bathroom steward, on the last occasion. I propose now to take some other witnesses from the "Californian" steamer. The reason, as your Lordship will appreciate, is that we cannot always get them here. They are here today and I think it will be convenient to examine them now.
Mr. Robertson Dunlop: Will your Lordship allow me to appear on behalf of the Leyland Line - the owners, master and officers from the "Californian," who are to be examined today?
The Attorney-General: Of course, this question of the "Californian" raises an issue between the master and officers of the "Californian," and, certainly, one man who was employed as a donkeyman or as an assistant donkeyman. The question substantially is this: The "Californian" is said by this donkeyman to have seen the distress rockets fired from a vessel which, according to this man, was the "Titanic," and to have taken no notice of those distress rockets. There is no doubt, as I understand the evidence, that rockets were seen on this night and that the "Californian" was not at a very great distance from the "Titanic," but whether it was the "Titanic" that she saw or not is a matter which can only be determined after we have heard the evidence. It is a little difficult again to say that that has a very direct bearing upon the particular questions which have been submitted so far for your Lordship's consideration. Some of the evidence undoubtedly will be material on these questions as to the position, what was seen and what precautions were taken by the "Californian," and the wireless messages that were sent and received, and they will be undoubtedly important matters for your consideration. This question, as between the donkey man and the master is a different matter, but it does seem to me that in view of the statements which have been made and the evidence that has already been given elsewhere about it, it would be desirable that your Lordship should hear what there is to be said. I propose therefore to ask them a few questions. I do not propose to go into it at any length, but to ask them on such as would be essential, so that your Lordship will be enabled to form some opinion as to whether or not this story told by the donkey man is right. At the present moment he is not in England.
The Commissioner: Who?
The Attorney-General: The donkey man. He left the vessel - as I understand, he deserted, but he is on his road and we are taking steps to have him brought here as soon as he arrives, so that he may tell his story.
The Commissioner: You are going to call others?
The Attorney-General: Yes, the master and officers and the Marconi operator, because they have to go with their vessel, and I thought it right your Lordship should have the evidence at once.
The Commissioner: I cannot deal with your application at present, Mr. Dunlop. If anything is said which I think requires explanation from your clients I will take care to let you know.
Mr. Robertson Dunlop: If your Lordship pleases, I may say the solicitors for the Leyland Line have taken statements supplemental to those taken by the Board of Trade, and I thought I might be able to clear up some matters which do not seem to be dealt with in the statements which have been given to the Board of Trade.
The Commissioner: Have you seen the statements which have been given to the Board of Trade?
Mr. Robertson Dunlop: Yes, my Lord.
The Commissioner: Have you shown your statements to the Attorney-General?
Mr. Robertson Dunlop: No, my Lord.
The Commissioner: Why not?
Mr. Robertson Dunlop: We had no time; we only got the statement late last night. I can show them.
The Commissioner: It appears to me it would be far better to let the Attorney-General see those statements so that he may deal with the whole thing. In the meantime, what you can do is to watch, and, if you find any attack is made upon your clients, then you can ask me to allow them to go into the box.
Mr. Robertson Dunlop: If your Lordship pleases.
The Attorney-General: It cannot affect the owners, I think; it may affect the master if the story were true.
The Commissioner: I understand this gentleman was applying on behalf of the owners and the master.
Mr. Robertson Dunlop: Yes, my Lord.
The Attorney-General: I do not see how it can affect the owners.

STANLEY LORD, Sworn.

Examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

6670. (The Attorney-General.) This is the Master, my Lord, of the Leyland Line steamship, "Californian" of Liverpool. (To the Witness.) Are you the Master of the s.s. "Californian" of Liverpool? - Yes.
6671. She is owned by the Leyland Line? - Yes.
6672. Would you tell me her tonnage? - Net?
6673. Give me the gross and net? - 4,038 net; 6,223 gross.
6674. What is her full speed? - It depends on the consumption of coal. Do you mean on a full consumption of coal?
6675. Yes? - 12 1/2 to 13.
6676. Did you leave London on April 5th? - Yes.
6677. For Boston? - For Boston.
6678. You arrived there, I think, on April 19th? - Yes, 4 a.m.
6679. Did you carry any passengers? - No.
6680. Do you carry passengers at all? - Sometimes we do; we have accommodation for passengers.
6681. You have a certificate as a passenger ship? - Yes.
6682. How many passengers would you carry? - 47 we have accommodation for.
6683. And what crew? - 55.
6684. Full complement? - 55.
6685. And how many boats do you carry? - 6.
6686. How many of those boats are lifeboats? - 4.
6687. (The Commissioner.) What are the other 2? - One is a gig and the other a pinnace; they are not lifeboats.
6688. (The Attorney-General.) And how many will your lifeboats carry? - The 6 boats carry 218 altogether.

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6689. You have no difficulty in carrying more boats than are required for crew and passengers? - We have boat accommodation for double the crew and passengers it will carry.
6690. Do you remember on Sunday, April 14th, sending a wireless message to the "Antillian"? - 6.30 on the 14th.
6691. Is that ship's time? - Yes, ship's time for longitude 47° 25.'
6692. Did you give him the position of some icebergs? - I gave him the position of the ship at 6.30, and I told him the icebergs were 5 miles south of me.
      The Commissioner: What was the name of the boat?
6693. (The Attorney-General.) It was a message sent to the "Antillian." Your Lordship will see in a moment what happened. (To the Witness.) Giving the position of three large icebergs, was it? - Yes.
6694. Would you tell me the position that you gave him? - Forty-two deg. five min and 49 deg. 9 min.
6695. Forty-two deg 5 min N and 49 deg 9 min W? - Yes.
6696. The three icebergs were reported five miles to the southward of you? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: Forty-two deg 5 min and 49 deg 9 min. was the position of his ship?
6697. (The Attorney-General.) Yes, my Lord. On the chart it is a little to the right of the spot marked as that at which the "Titanic" sank - five miles to the southward the icebergs were. (To the Witness.) Did your wireless operator tell you whether any other vessel had picked up that message? - Witness: He did.
6698. Did he tell you anything about the "Titanic"? - He told me he had offered it to the "Titanic" and he said, "All right, he had it."
6699. He said, "All right, he had it"? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: What does that mean?
6700. (The Attorney-General.) That meant he had already received the information -
      The Witness: He had picked it up whilst we were sending it to the "Antillian."
6701. Later on did you have to stop on account of ice? - I had to stop and reverse engines.
6702. Would you tell us what time that was? - 10. 21 p.m.
6703. That also was ship's time? - Yes, ship's time for that same longitude.
6704. Where were you then? - Forty-two deg five min N, and 50 deg 7 min. W.
      The Attorney-General: We shall have to do this with several vessels later on, my Lord; it will be very useful if we agree, at any rate, upon the spot as we proceed, so that we see we get the same spot as your Lordship's assessors have marked for you. We make it the spot is just under the fringe marked as "the field of ice between March and July," and the spot is just under the "J," where she stopped.
      The Commissioner: I can hand this plan down. You will see where the blue or the red mark is, and I have written "Californian" above the round spot in pencil. It is not quite under "July"; it is a little to the east of "July." Do you see it?
      The Attorney-General: Yes, my Lord, I do.
      The Solicitor-General: Probably that is the first position.
      The Attorney-General: I agree that is the first position, but what we are speaking of is the spot where she stopped and reversed engines because of ice. I think it is just under the fringe below the "J" in "July"; in the field of ice.
      Sir Robert Finlay: That is right.
      The Attorney-General: We are agreed that is the right spot, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: Very well.
      The Attorney-General: I think it is convenient to mark them on the chart as we proceed.
      The Commissioner: At some time I shall want a chart, but not now - it is not convenient now - marked with the position of these different vessels at the different times that are referred to in the evidence.
      The Attorney-General: Your Lordship shall have it, and the direction in which they are proceeding.
      The Commissioner: And also the probable position of the "Titanic" at the time those messages were sent off.
6705. (The Attorney-General.) Yes, your Lordship shall have that. (To the Witness.) You were telling us that you stopped and reversed engines because of ice. What sort of ice was it? - Field ice.
6706. Where was it? - Right ahead of me.
6707. Did it stretch far? - As far as I could see to the northward and southward.
6708. You could see it although it was night? - Oh, yes.
6709. Then you stopped and reversed engines, and what did you do then? - I turned round and headed E.N.E. by the compass. I twisted her head to E.N.E.
6710. Where had you been heading before? - S. 89, W. true.
6711. You turned to E.N.E. by the compass? - Yes, by the compass.
6712. Did you then stop? - We stopped.
6713. Till? - 6 o'clock next morning. 5.15 we moved the engines for a few minutes and then we stopped on account of the news we received, and waited till 6 o'clock.
6714. It was daylight then, I suppose? - It was daylight then.
6715. Now close upon 11 o'clock did you see a steamer's light? - I did.
      The Commissioner: 11 o'clock when?
      The Attorney-General: At night, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: This was on Sunday night?
6716. (The Attorney-General.) Yes. (To the Witness.). This was on Sunday night that you had stopped? - After we had stopped.
6717. And you saw a steamer's light. Was it approaching you? - It was approaching me from the eastward.
6718. How did it bear? - I did not get the bearings of it; I was just noticing it casually from the deck.
6719. Where was it? On your quarter? - It was on the starboard side.
6720. What did you see - what light? - I just saw a white light to commence with.
6721. Did you then ask your wireless operator what ships he had? - Yes, I went to his room and I asked him what ships he had.
6722. That means from what ships he had had messages? - What ships he had been in communication with.
6723. What did he say? - "Nothing, only the 'Titanic.'"
6724. Did you think that the vessel approaching you was the "Titanic"? - No, I remarked at the time that was not the "Titanic."
6725. How could you tell that? - You can never mistake those ships - by the blaze of light.
6726. I am not quite sure that I understand you - you told us you had seen one light? - First.
6727. Then as she was approaching you, did you see more? - I saw more lights.
6728. Did you see any sidelights? - I saw a green light.
6729. And did you see any deck lights? - A few.
6730. It was sufficiently close for that? - Oh, yes, she was getting closer all the time.
6731. About what distance approximately did you consider she was from you? - At 11 o'clock?
6732. I was going to ask you the distance at the time this conversation took place, and you said it was not the "Titanic"? - I suppose she was six or seven miles away. That is only approximately.
      The Commissioner: What lights did you see at the time this conversation was taking place.
6733. (The Attorney-General.) I thought that was what he was saying. (To the Witness.) Will you tell us what lights you saw at the time you had this conversation with the Marconi operator? - I saw one masthead light and a few other white lights, but I do not say I noticed the green light then; I was not paying a great deal of attention to her.
6734. (The Commissioner.) Were the white lights bearing from east on your starboard side? - Coming from the eastward on our starboard side, my Lord.

Page 158

6735. And you saw some other lights. What were they? - They might have been anything - lights from the portholes, doorways, or anything at all.
6736. But no coloured light? - I did not notice any then.
      The Commissioner: I understand it now.
6737. (The Attorney-General.) You said it was not the "Titanic." Did you give him any directions? Did you tell him to let the "Titanic" know? - I said, "Let the 'Titanic' know that we are stopped, surrounded by ice."
6738. Do you remember at what time that message was sent? - About 11 o'clock.
6739. About 11 o'clock that night, ship's time? - Ship's time.
6740. Did you hear whether that message was acknowledged by the "Titanic"? - Not until the next day.
6741. It was not reported to you till the next day? - No.
6742. What was the report given to you? - That he told him to keep out - stand by; that he was busy with Cape Race. That is what I understood the message.
6743. You heard that from your Marconi operator, I suppose? - Yes.
6744. That an answer had been received from the "Titanic"? - Yes, telling him to keep out - that he was busy.
6745. What is the meaning of "keep out"? - Well, do not interrupt him.
6746. Do not interrupt because he, the "Titanic" operator, was busy? - Was busy.
6747. I think I understood you to say he was getting into touch with Cape Race? - That is what they were doing, I think; they were signaling with Cape Race.
6748. (The Commissioner.) "We are busy getting into touch with Cape Race"? - They were communicating with Cape Race then.
6749. (The Attorney-General.) I am going to call the operator, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Did you continue to watch the approaching vessel? - Yes.
6750. Till what time? - Half-past 11. I was standing on deck watching it.
6751. All this time you were stopped? - We were stopped.
6752. What size steamer did she appear to you - can you give us some idea? - She was something like ourselves.
6753. Something like yourselves? - Yes.
6754. Medium size? - A medium size steamer.
6755. Did you see your third officer attempt to communicate with him? - I did.
6756. How? - By a Morse lamp.
6757. A Morse lamp? - Yes.
6758. Did he get any reply? - No.
6759. By this time had you been able to detect her sidelights at all? - I could see her green light then.
6760. How far do you judge she was when you could see her green light? - Well, I saw it some time between 11 and half-past; I do not know exactly.
6761. What distance do you think she was from you when you could see the lights? - About five miles.
6762. As much as that? - About that, I should think.
6763. Did you give any directions to your second officer with reference to this ship? - After the second officer relieved the deck.
6764. At what time did he relieve the deck? - Ten minutes past 12.
6765. Just before that was there any other officer on deck? - The third officer was on deck until 12.
6766. With you? - Well, I was up and down off the bridge till 12 o'clock.
6767. Then at 12 o'clock the second officer relieved the third officer? - Ten minutes past 12.
6768. You were still on deck? - Yes.
6769. And did you tell him anything with regard to this vessel? - I told him to watch that steamer - that she was stopped.
6770. She was stopped? - The other steamer was stopped.
6771. When did you notice the other steamer was stopped? - About half-past 11.
6772. And he was to let you know if she did what? - If she altered her bearings or got any closer to us - drifted towards us.
6773. Did the ice extend at all to the eastward or westward of you? - It seemed to me to be running more north and south, but whilst we were stopped we were surrounded by loose ice.
6774. From north to south was the field? - Yes.
6775. Then when you stopped you got surrounded by the loose ice? - I ran into the loose ice before I could stop - before the ship was brought up.
6776. There was ice between you and this vessel? - Yes.
6777. And then you noticed this vessel had stopped at half-past 11, presumably also on account of the ice? - On account of the ice.
6778. Can you tell us at all how this ship was heading? - She was heading to the westward, that is all I can tell you.
6779. Could you tell her bearing at all? - Well, I have heard it since. I heard what it was at midnight - S.S.E. from us by compass.
6780. That was at midnight? - Yes.
6781. (The Commissioner.) Was the compass correct? - No.
6782. (The Attorney-General.) What variation? - The variation that day at noon was 24 3/4. She was about 24 when we were stopped; the deviation would be about 2E, making an error of 22W.
      The Commissioner: Are these minute particulars of importance?
6783. (The Attorney-General.) No, I do not think they are, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Did you speak to the second officer again later about going down below? - I went into the chart room at a quarter-past 12.
6784. Is that below? - No, it is on the bridge deck, just below the upper bridge.
6785. Then did you speak to him through the speaking tube? - At 20 minutes to 1.
6786. Did he say whether she had changed her position? - I asked him if the steamer was the same. He said it was the same; he had called her up once, but she would not reply to him.
6787. Then you went to lie down in the chart room? - Yes, I told him I was going to lie down in the chart room then.
6788. A little later did he whistle down the tube and tell you she was altering her bearings? - A quarter-past 1.
6789. Did he say how she was altering her bearings? - Towards the S.W.
6790. Did he tell you whether he had seen any signal? - He said he saw a white rocket.
6791. From her? - From her.
6792. A white rocket? - Yes.
6793. (The Commissioner.) She did not change until what time? - A quarter-past 1 it was reported to me first.
6794. And then what was her bearing? - She was altering it slightly towards the S.W.
6795. It was then that you saw the rocket? - It was then that we saw the rocket.
6796. Did you see it? - No.
6797. The second officer saw it? - The second officer saw it.
      The Attorney-General: Your Lordship has the spot marked on the chart showing where the "Titanic" was when she sank?
      The Commissioner: Yes.
      The Attorney-General: It is not necessary to call attention to that because I think your Lordship has it before you?
      The Commissioner: Yes.
      The Attorney-General: You will see exactly what relation this has to the "Titanic."
      The Commissioner: I do not follow it very well.
      The Attorney-General: Have you the spot marked of the "Titanic" sinking? I think it is just at the sounding 2084.

Page 159

The Commissioner: Is it right Mr. Attorney that at this time the "Titanic" would be bearing to the S.W. of where the "Californian" was?
The Attorney-General: To the S.W. yes.
The Commissioner: Is it also true as this witness is telling us, that the vessel of which we do not know the name was also bearing to the S.W.?
The Attorney-General: I understand him to say so.

6798. (The Commissioner - To the Witness.) Is that so. Did you hear him? - I did my Lord. The steamer was heading S.S.E. by compass till 10 minutes to 1.
6799. Yes I know it was, but at the particular time we are talking about it was heading S.W. - Towards the S.W.
6800. I do not know what that means. Does it mean not S.W. What does towards "S.W." mean. Does it mean S.W. or does it not? - It does not mean exactly S.W.; she was heading towards the S.W.
6801. Well, near enough. Is it the fact - am I right in supposing that this vessel, the name of which you apparently do not know, from which a rocket appeared, was at the time that the rocket was sent up in the position in which probably the "Titanic" was? - No.
6802. Well, then, you have conveyed to me an erroneous impression. How did this rocket bear to you? - I have never heard the exact bearing of it.
6803. But your second officer is alive, is he not? - Yes.
6804. Have you never asked him what the bearing of that rocket was? - He told me it was heading towards the S.W. Between the bearings S.S.W. and S.W. would be a distance of at least 5 miles and she was going slowly between those two bearings.
      The Commissioner: Mr. Attorney, again I want to know this: Apparently the "Titanic" (although it is very inaccurate because the chart is so small) would be at this time 14 or 15 miles away from this vessel?
      The Attorney-General: Yes.
      Sir Robert Finlay: I thought 19 miles.
      The Commissioner: I do not think it matters very much.
      Sir Robert Finlay: 19, Southerly by W.
      The Commissioner: I am told 14, but let us assume it was something between 14 and 19. This mysterious vessel would be between the "Californian" and the "Titanic," and must have been well within sight of the "Titanic."
      The Attorney-General: Yes.
      The Commissioner: We have heard about the mysterious light that was seen, the imaginary light as it was called, that was seen from the "Titanic," but dismissing that light, was there any light or any vessel seen by any witness from the "Titanic" at this time?
      The Attorney-General: There is some evidence of it certainly.
      The Commissioner: Of what?
      The Attorney-General: There is some evidence of a light having been seen.
      The Commissioner: I know; I say, dismissing that imaginary light, is there any evidence of any ship having been seen at this time or about this time by the "Titanic"?
      The Attorney-General: No, I do not think so.
      The Commissioner: What is in my brain at the present time is this, that what they saw was the "Titanic."
      The Attorney-General: I know.
      The Commissioner: That is in my brain, and I want to see whether I am right or not.
      The Attorney-General: It certainly must have been very close.
      The Commissioner: Clear it up if you can.
      The Attorney-General: I think it will clear up as we go on - at least, as far as it can be cleared up. It is a point your Lordship will probably have to determine on the evidence.
      The Commissioner: Yes, and therefore I want the evidence put before me as clearly as possible.
6805. (The Attorney-General - To the Witness.) Can you tell us whether you saw one or two masthead lights? - I only saw one.
6806. You only saw one? - The third officer said he saw two.
      The Attorney-General: Now that is important.
      The Commissioner: That is very important, because the "Titanic" would have two.
6807. 6807. (The Attorney-General.) Yes, that is it - two masthead lights. (To the Witness.) You only saw one, but the third officer said he saw two? - And the second officer said he saw one.
      The Attorney-General: Very well; we will hear their accounts from them.
      The Commissioner: I am sorry to interrupt you, but it is not satisfactory to me. When was it the third officer said he saw two lights? The third officer by this time was below; I do not know what you are talking about now.
6808. (The Attorney-General - To the Witness.) When was it the third officer told you he had seen the two lights? - Before 12 o'clock.
6809. Before 12 o'clock? - Before midnight. At the time I saw one, he saw two.
6810. Were you on deck when he told you this? - He told me the following day, I think; I do not think it was mentioned that night.
6811. He told you next day he had seen two white lights when on deck about 12 o'clock? - Yes, two masthead lights.
6812. Is the third officer still in the ship? - Yes.
6813. Will you tell me his name? - Mr. Groves.
6814. (The Attorney-General.) He will be called, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Will you tell us what he said to you next day about these two lights? - I asked him the next day or the following day - I do not remember exactly, it is so long ago - how many lights the ship had, and he said "two." I remarked that I only saw one.
6815. (The Commissioner.) Now I want to know this. You had seen only one, and you and he were on the deck together, as I understand you? - Yes.
6816. Why did you ask him how many there were? - Well, I was curious about this "Titanic" accident. I was trying to locate the ship that was supposed to be between us and the "Titanic."
6817. Were you in doubt as to whether you had seen one or two lights? - I had not myself.
      The Commissioner: Then I cannot understand why you should ask him how many lights he had seen if you yourself had no doubt whatever about it.
6818. (The Attorney-General.) If he did see two lights it must have been the "Titanic," must it not? - It does not follow.
6819. Do you know any other vessel it could have been? - Any amount.
6820. Which - I mean, at this particular time, you know, and at this particular spot. Can you suggest any other vessel it could have been? - Well, I do not know.
6821. Carrying two lights? - That particular spot? The spot mentioned here as 19 miles away is not, in my opinion, where the "Titanic" hit the berg.
6822. Within a radius of 20 miles of you? - No, 30 miles.
6823. Do you mean she was further from you? - She was 32 miles from where I left the wreckage.
6824. (The Commissioner.) Has the third officer ever expressed any opinion to you that it was the "Titanic" he saw? - No, my Lord.
6825. Never? - Never.
6826. (The Attorney-General.) I must put this to you. Do you remember about a quarter-past 11 on that night, that is the night of the 14th, his telling you that he had noticed a steamer - that is, the third officer, Mr. Groves? - No, I do not.
6827. A steamer about three points abaft the starboard beam, 10 to 12 miles away? - No, I do not.
6828. Did you ask about her lights? - Not then.
6829. At any time? - No. A quarter to 12 was the first time I ever mentioned anything to him about the steamer, that I recollect.
6830. Did he say to you that she was evidently a passenger steamer? - No.
6831. And did you say to him, "The only passenger steamer near us is the "Titanic"? - I might have said that with regard to the steamer, but he did not say the steamer was a passenger steamer.

Page 160

6832. You might have said what? - The "Titanic."
6833. What about the "Titanic"? - The "Titanic" we were in communication with.
6834. That is not what I put, you know.
      The Commissioner: No, and it is not what he said.
      The Attorney-General: That is a very different thing.
6835. (The Commissioner.) You said, according to your statement, "The 'Titanic' is the only passenger steamer near us." You said that to him? - She was.
6836. But you said it to him? - I do not recollect saying it.
6837. You have just told me you did say it. Do collect your mind. Did you say it? - I do not recollect saying it.
6838. (The Attorney-General.) Did you know of any other passenger steamer near you except the "Titanic"? - I did not.
6839. But you knew the "Titanic" was not far from you? - I had no idea where the "Titanic" was.
6840. But you had been in communication with it? - Yes; I had never had its position.
6841. Did you tell him to call her up with the Morse lamp? - I did not; he had already called her up.
      The Commissioner: I do not know whether you are going to leave it here?
      The Attorney-General: No; I am going to call other evidence about it.
      The Commissioner: I mean with this witness.
6842. (The Attorney-General.) No, I am not going to leave it. (To the Witness.) Who was Mr. Stone? - The second officer.
6843. It was he who relieved Mr. Groves? - Yes, at 10 minutes past 12.
6844. Do you know whether the steamer was pointed out by Mr. Stone to Mr. Groves? - He told me afterwards that she was.
6845. And that it was a passenger steamer? - I never heard that.
6846. That he had said that it was a passenger steamer? - I never heard that.
6847. (The Commissioner.) You do not give answers that please me at present. You said just now as plainly as possible that you answered the third officer, I think it was, and said: "The only passenger steamer near us is the 'Titanic.'" You now suggest that you do not remember whether you said that or not? - I do not recollect saying anything to him about it, my Lord.
6848. Could you have forgotten such a thing? - Well, I have heard so many stories about the "Titanic" since that I really do not know what I heard that night.
6849. (The Attorney-General.) But that would be rather an important matter, would it not, if you thought the steamer that was approaching you was the "Titanic"? - I never thought it. I saw a steamer.
      The Commissioner: This is exactly what you said: "I might have said that the only passenger steamer likely to be near us is the 'Titanic.'"
6850. (The Attorney-General - To the Witness.). You might have said that. That is what you said before. That is right, is it not? - I might have said it; I do not recollect it.
6851. Did you know the steamer had stopped from 11.40, whatever she was? - I know she stopped round about half-past eleven.
      The Commissioner: Will you remind me, Mr. Attorney, how the mysterious imaginary light bore from the "Titanic"?
      The Attorney-General: It is not very satisfactory. It is said by some witness two points on the port bow; by another a point on the port bow; and by another it is said to have been on the starboard or broad on the starboard. Nobody is very satisfactory about it. Of course, your Lordship will remember it is rather difficult to know after she struck the iceberg how she was heading. We have not any very definite or clear evidence how the "Titanic" was heading. We cannot tell.
      The Commissioner: Therefore, it comes substantially to nothing more than this: that there are witnesses from the "Titanic" who believe that they did see the white light of a ship?
      The Attorney-General: Yes, and one of them said he saw sidelights. Your Lordship will hear some further evidence about it.
      The Commissioner: Yes; one of them said he saw a sidelight.
      The Attorney-General: Yes.
      The Commissioner: It was a red light, was it not, the sidelight?
6852. (The Attorney-General.) Yes, quite right, my Lord. (To the Witness.) I think you did see your third officer signaling with a Morse lamp from the bridge? - I did.
6853. And that he got no reply? - He got no reply.
6854. Did it strike you as a curious thing that he got no reply. Did you think about it at all? - I did. It did not strike me as being very strange.
6855. You knew, of course, you were amongst ice? - Yes.
6856. And that the other vessel might also be amongst ice? - Yes.
6857. Have you an apprentice on your vessel called Gibson? - Yes.
6858. Do you remember his coming down into the chart room? - I do not.
6859. After 1.15, when you went to the chart room? - I have a recollection of Gibson opening and closing the chart room door some time between half-past 1 and half-past 4.
6860. You remember that? - I remember that.
6861. Do you remember what he opened and closed the chart room door for? - I do not.
6862. Was it to come and tell you something? - I could not say. I said, "What is it?" and he did not reply; he closed the door.
6863. At half-past 4 by your ship's time were you called by the chief officer? - Yes.
6864. Were you on deck about 20 minutes to 12? - I was on deck, yes.
6865. And at what time did you leave the deck to go to your chart room? - A quarter-past 12.
6866. Did you see that the deck lights of this vessel appeared to go out? - Not to me.
6867. Did the third officer make any observation to you about that? - No.
6868. Did he say to you that her deck lights seemed to go out? - No.
6869. Or that nearly all her deck lights seemed to go out? - No.
6870. (The Commissioner.) Was nothing said to you about her deck lights? - Not to me.
6871. Was anything said to anybody as far as you know? - I have heard since that the remark was passed.
6872. Who made the remark and to whom? - The third officer, I think, remarked to the second officer.
6873. When? - I do not know when.
6874. Have you never asked? - I have never asked, no.
      The Commissioner: You hear what he says?
6875. (The Attorney-General.) Yes, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Let me finish, first, what happened during that night. You were called by the chief officer? - At 4.30, yes.
6876. What did he say? - He told me it was breaking day and the steamer that had fired the rocket was to the southward.
6877. Was still to the southward? - Yes.
6878. (The Commissioner.) Who told you this? - The chief officer at 4.30.
6879. What is his name? - Mr. Stewart.
6880. (The Attorney-General.) 4.30 ship's time, day was breaking. The steamer which had fired the rocket was still to the southward. Did you know she had fired a number of rockets? - I did not.
6881. According to you did she fire only one rocket? - Only one rocket.
6882. Have you never heard from other officers that she fired a number of rockets? - Since.
6883. When did you hear that? - The next day.
6884. Who told you? - The second officer first.

Page 161

6885. What did he say? - He said she had fired several rockets in his watch - no, the chief officer told me, about 5 o'clock, that she had fired several rockets.
      The Attorney-General: My Lord, I think it very desirable that the other witnesses from the "Californian" should be out of Court whilst this witness is giving evidence.
      The Commissioner: By all means.
      The Attorney-General: If your Lordship will direct it.
      The Commissioner: Where are the other witnesses from the "Californian"? (The officers of the "Californian" stood up in Court.) Well, gentlemen, I think you had better leave the Court at present. (The officers retired.)
6886. (The Attorney-General.) Had you heard this vessel had fired altogether 8 rockets? - When.
6887. Before the chief officer came to you at 4.30? - None.
6888. Do you know that Gibson was told by the second officer to call you? - I do now.
6889. You do now? - Yes.
6890. When did you hear that? - The next day.
6891. What time the next day? - At about 7 o'clock.
6892. In. the morning? - In the morning.
6893. That the second officer had told Gibson to go to the chart room to call you? - Yes.
6894. And was that for the purpose of telling you that this vessel had fired 8 rockets? - Several rockets, I understand.
      The Commissioner: Is that the man who did come into his room?
      The Attorney-General: Yes.
      The Commissioner: And went away, according to this witness, without saying anything?
6895. (The Attorney-General.) Yes, my Lord, that is according to the evidence. (To the Witness.) Gibson, the Apprentice, had been told by the second officer to go to the chart room to tell you that the vessel had fired altogether eight rockets, or, as you say, several rockets, and that the vessel had disappeared? - Had steamed away. That was the message that I understand was given.
6896. I am putting to you, you know, that what was said was the vessel had disappeared? - No, it was never mentioned, "disappeared," to me.
6897. What did you think it was firing rockets for? - When? I did not know anything about these rockets until 7 o'clock the next morning.
6898. But you saw one rocket fired? - I heard of one rocket. I did not see it fired.
6899. You heard of one? - Yes.
6900. That was before you went to the chart room? - No, at a quarter-past 1.
6901. Were you on deck then? - No.
6902. Did you remain in the chart room when you were told that a vessel was firing a rocket? - I remained in the chart room when he told me this vessel had fired a rocket.
6903. I do not understand you. You knew, of course, there was danger in this field of ice to steamers? - To a steamer steaming, yes.
6904. You knew there was danger? - Yes.
6905. That is why you stopped? - Yes.
6906. And you knew also that it was desirable, at any rate, to communicate with the "Titanic" to tell her that there was ice? - Yes.
6907. You had done that? - I had done that.
6908. And you knew that this vessel, whatever it was, that you say had stopped? - Had stopped, yes.
6909. I do not understand - it may be my fault? - Shall I explain to you?
6910. What did you think this vessel was firing rockets for? - I asked the second officer. I said, "Is that a company's signal?" and he said he did not know.
6911. Then that did not satisfy you? - No, it did not.
6912. I mean whatever it was it did not satisfy you that it was a company's signal? - It did not, but I had no reason to think it was anything else.
6913. (The Commissioner.) That seems odd. You knew that the vessel that was sending up this rocket was in a position of danger? - No, my Lord, I did not.
6914. Well, danger if she moved? - If she moved, yes.
6915. What did you think the rocket was sent up for? - Well, we had been trying to communicate with this steamer by Morse lamp from half-past 11, and she would not reply.
6916. This was a quarter-past one? - Yes, we had tried at intervals from half-past eleven.
6917. What did you think he was sending up a rocket for? - I thought it was acknowledging our signals, our Morse lamp. A good many steamers do not use the Morse lamp.
6918. Have you ever said that before? - That has been my story right through - my impression right along.
6919. (The Attorney-General.) Just let me put this to you. When you asked him whether it was a company's signal he said he did not know. That would not satisfy you? - No.
6920. Was it then you told him to Morse her and find out what ship it was? - Yes.
6921. After the white rocket had been sent up? - After the white rocket had been sent up.
6922. And did you tell him to send Gibson, the apprentice, down to let you know his reply? - Yes.
6923. You did? - I did.
6924. What was the message that Gibson brought down to you then? - That morning? I did not get it, not to my knowledge. I never got it.
6925. You had seen the rocket or you had heard of the rocket? - Yes.
6926. You want to know what the rocket is? - Yes.
6927. You have been trying to find out by Morsing him? - Yes.
6928. And you have failed? - Yes.
6929. Then you say to him that Gibson was to come down and tell you what the result of the Morse signaling was? - Yes.
6930. And then, I suppose, you remained in the chart room? - I remained in the chart room.
6931. Then, so far as you were concerned, you did not know at all what the rocket was for? - No.
6932. And you remained in the chart room? - Yes, I remained in the chart room.
6933. And you did nothing further? - I did nothing further myself.
6934. - 6935.   If it was not a company's signal, must it not have been a distress signal? - If it had been a distress signal the officer on watch would have told me.

6936. I say, if it was not a company's signal, must it not have been a distress signal? - Well, I do not know of any other signals but distress signals that are used at sea.
6937. You do not expect at sea, where you were, to see a rocket unless it is a distress signal, do you? - We sometimes get these company's signals which resemble rockets; they do not shoot as high and they do not explode.
6938. You have already told us that you were not satisfied that was a company's signal. You have told us that? - I asked the officer, was it a company's signal.
6939. (The Commissioner.) And he did not know? - He did not know.
6940. (The Attorney-General.) You have told me already some few minutes ago - ? - Very well. Sir.
6941. That you were not satisfied it was a company's signal. You did not think it was a company's signal? - I inquired, was it a company's signal.
6942. But you had been told that he did not know? - He said he did not know.
6943. Very well, that did not satisfy you? - It did not satisfy me.
6944. Then if it was not that, it might have been a distress signal? - It might have been.
6945. And you remained in the chart room? - I remained in the chart room.
6946. Expecting Gibson, the Apprentice, to come down and report to you? - Yes.

Page 162

6947. Gibson did come down? - So I understand.
6948. But you know perfectly well that he came? - I know now.
6949. Did you know then? - I did not.
6950. I think you told us you heard Gibson open and close the door? - Yes.
6951. And you said, "What is it?" - Yes.
6952. And he said nothing? - He did not say anything.
6953. And you were expecting him to come down and tell you what the meaning of the rocket was? - But in the meantime I was asleep.
6954. (The Commissioner.) Yes, but you were not asleep - at least, I suppose not - when you said to the boy, "What is it"? - I was wakened up by the opening of the door - the banging of the door.
      The Commissioner: There is one matter I want. When was the Morse signal first used?
6955. (The Attorney-General.) You hear my Lord's question? - Half-past 11 at night.
6956. And no reply was ever obtained? - No reply.
6957. So it would follow from what you have said, would it not, that if your man Gill says he did see a distress signal he was right? - No. At the distance we were away from that steamer, if it had been a distress signal we would have heard the report.
6958. I do not understand. From what you have been telling us just now you did not know that this rocket which you saw was not a distress signal? - Well, I am under the impression it was not.
6959. Why? - Because we did not hear the report; we were close enough to hear the report of any distress signal.
6960. How many miles off were you? - About four or five - four to five miles.
6961. Let us go back to the story. At half-past 4 in the morning, when the chief officer called you, do you remember saying to him that the second officer had said something to you about a rocket? - Yes, I said that.
6962. Did you then go on the bridge? - Yes.
6963. Do you remember just before 5 o'clock a conversation with your chief officer? - I do.
6964. About the steamer? - About this, which he said was a yellow-funneled steamer.
6965. What was it? - Do you mean the whole of the conversation?
6966. I only want the substance of it? - Well, I was conversing with him about the probability of pushing through the ice, to commence with. I was undecided whether to go through it or to turn round and go back, and we decided to go on, so I told him to put the engines on and stand by. He did so. Then he said, "Will you go down to look at this steamer to the southward?" I asked him, "Why, what is the matter with it?" He said, "He might have lost his rudder." But I said, "Why? He has not got any signals up." "No, but," he said, "the second officer in his watch said he fired several rockets." I said, "Go and call the wireless operator."
6967. Did he? - He did.
6968. Did he go to the wireless operator? - Yes.
6969. Did the wireless operator come back, or did the chief officer come back? - The chief officer came back some time after.
6970. How long after? - I suppose 15 to 20 minutes.
6971. And what did he say? - He said, "There is a ship sunk."
6972. Did he tell you what ship? - No; he went back to the wireless room straight away.
6973. Did he come back a few minutes after that? - Some time after that. He said, "The 'Titanic' has hit a berg and sunk."
6974. What did you say then? - I left the bridge and went to the wireless room myself.
6975. Did you say anything at all about these rockets? - To him, then?
6976. Yes? - No.
6977. Or anything about the ship you had seen the night before? - No.
6978. Or about the possibility of that having been the "Titanic"? - No.
6979. Or about the vessel that had been stopped about 11.40? - No, I never mentioned a thing to him then. I went right to the wireless.
6980. Or about the vessel you expected to hear about from Gibson? - No.
6981. Or whether Gibson had been sent down by the second officer to tell you anything about that steamer? - No.
6982. It never occurred to you at all? - Not then.
6983. Were you quite comfortable in your mind when you heard the "Titanic" had sunk, in reference to your own actions? - Well, I thought we ought to have seen her signals at 19 miles, that was the only thing that was worrying me.
6984. Do you mean rockets? - Her distress rockets - if she had fired any, which I presume she had.
6985. You ought to have seen them? - I thought we might have seen them at 19 miles.
6986. Have you ever heard what the steamer was that according to you sent up rockets if it was not the "Titanic"? - No, I have never heard anything about it.
6987. We know from the evidence in this case that the "Titanic" did send up rockets for some considerable time? - Yes.
6988. So far as I understand from you, you do not know of any other steamer which, on that night, and about this time, sent up rockets? - I do not.
6989. Does not it strike you now that that steamer you saw sending up rockets must have been the "Titanic"? - No.
6990. Not now? - No, I am positive it was not the "Titanic."
6991. Why are you positive it was not? - Because a ship like the "Titanic" at sea it is an utter impossibility for anyone to mistake.
6992. That must depend upon the distance you are from her? - Well, my distance, according to my estimate, is 4 to 5 miles.
6993. But might not she have been a good deal further off? - I do not think so. I do not think we would have seen her sidelights.
6994. - 6995.   Of course, if you saw her green light about 4 or 5 miles away, that would show to you that she must have been a pretty big ship, would it not? - It would not follow; there are so many steamers have electric lights now. You see sidelights a great deal further than you used to.

6996. If she was 4 or 5 miles away her light must have been at a high elevation from you, must it not, for you to see it? - A steamer something like ourselves, as I said before.
6997. I mean her sidelight must have been pretty high from the water if you could see it 4 to 5 miles distant? - The "Californian" is 40 feet above the water, and I said she was a steamer something like the "Californian."
6998. Now let us understand where we are about it. Am I right in this, that you cannot suggest any other passenger steamer that was in that neighbourhood at that time - that is midnight - except the "Titanic"? - I only saw one steamer, passenger steamer, of any size that day, and that was the "Mount Temple."
6999. I wish you would answer the question I am putting to you. Is the result of your evidence that you cannot suggest the name of any other passenger steamer that was in the neighbourhood of your vessel at about midnight on the 14th April? - No, I cannot.
7000. You cannot suggest any other steamer that sent up rockets at 1 o'clock or between 1 and 2 in the morning of Monday the 15th April, except the "Titanic"? - No, I have not heard of any.
7001. Did you receive a message from the "Virginian" at 6 o'clock that morning? - Yes.
7002. That the "Titanic" had struck a berg? - "Passengers in boats; ship sinking."
7003. And it gave you the position? - Latitude and Longitude 41° 46', 50° 14'.
7004. And did you at once start for that position? - I did.
7005. What course did you make? - I made from 6 until half-past anything between S. and S.W. I was pushing through field ice.

Page 163

7006. That was of course in order to reach the position of the "Titanic"? - Yes.
      The Attorney-General: Has your Lordship got the chart before you?
      The Commissioner: Yes.
7007. (The Attorney-General.) That is very much the course that he would take to go from the spot that he has indicated just below the "J" to the spot of the figure "4" in the soundings which marks where the "Titanic" sank. (To the Witness.) The course that you were making was S 20° W., was it not? - No, I was endeavouring to make S. 16° W., as near as possible.
7008. S 16° W.? - Yes.
7009. Was that direction the one from which you had seen the rocket? - I did not see the rocket.
7010. Or from which you had heard the rocket had been seen? - I did not hear as to the bearing of the rocket then.
7011. Had not you heard? - I had heard of rockets, but no particulars of bearing then.
7012. Or where the steamer was - how she bore at all? - No.
7013. Nothing about her? - No.
7014. Did you about half-past 7 pass close to the "Mount Temple"? - I did.
7015. She was also stopped? - She was stopped.
7016. (The Attorney-General.) The captain of the "Mount Temple" will be called before your Lordship. (To the Witness.) About the same time did you get a verbal message from your operator that the "Carpathia" was standing by the "Titanic"? - Yes.
7017. And to have boats ready and lifebelts? - Yes.
7018. And then you eventually saw the "Carpathia." I need not go through that part of the story. Did you eventually get to the position of the foundering of the "Titanic"? - The real position or the position given?
7019. The position given? - I passed that position.
7020. When did you pass that position? - I must have passed that position I should say about half-past 7.
7021. That is the position given of 41° 46' and 50° 14'? - Yes.
7022. Did you cruise round the vicinity of the wreck? - I cruised round there until 11.
7023. How did you know what was the position? - I got a good observation at noon that day.
7024. I do not quite understand what you mean. You said just now that you passed the position indicated to you by the wireless messages? - Yes.
7025. Where the "Titanic" had sunk? - Yes.
7026. Did you see anything at all there? - The "Mount Temple" was in the vicinity of that position.
7027. She was near there? - Yes.
7028. Did you see any wreckage? - Not where the "Mount Temple" was.
7029. Did you see any wreckage anywhere? - I did.
7030. Where? - Near the "Carpathia."
7031. What did you see? - I saw several boats, deck chairs, cushions, planks.
7032. Collapsible boats? - I saw two collapsible boats.
7033. Did you see any bodies? - No.
7034. Any lifebelts floating? - No.
7035. Any wreckage? - Yes.
7036. Much? - Not a great deal.
7037. Did you cruise round and search? - I did.
7038. To see if you could find any bodies or any living persons? - I did. I did not see anything at all.
7039. I should like to understand from you, if you say that the position indicated to you was wrong, what do you say was the position? - The position where I left the wreckage was 41º 33' N., 50°, 1' W.
7040. One further general question. I want as to what you did. On your vessel on the Sunday evening, April 14th, when you came amongst the ice, did you take any precautions? - Yes, I did.
7041. Tell us what you did. I want you to tell my Lord what you did? - I doubled the look-out. We had one man at the crow's-nest and a man at the forecastle head, and I was on the bridge myself.
7042. Just let us understand that. Where had you a man on the look-out before you doubled your look-out? - In the crow's-nest.
7043. And then did he report ice? - As I reversed the engines that night there were two reports. I do not know which man reported them, or whether each reported one.
7044. I do not think you are quite following, or it may be I am not. At 8 o'clock you had a report about ice, had you, from your look-out? - No.
7045. When did you? - At about 22 minutes past 10.
7046. As late as that? - Yes, it was reported then.
7047. When did you double your look-out? - Eight o'clock.
7048. Why did you double the look-out? - Because we had passed bergs during the afternoon and we had had a report of bergs from east-bound steamers.
7049. You had reported to the "Titanic" that you had passed ice at half-past 6 that day? - Yes.
7050. You doubled the look-out. You had one man at the crow's-nest? - Yes, and one man right in the bows of the ship.
7051. Was that before you doubled the look-out, or is that doubling the look-out? - That is doubling the look-out.
7052. That is what I want you to tell us. What is the addition that you made? Was it the man on the forecastle head? - The man on the forecastle head.
7053. Knowing there was ice about you had one man in the crow's-nest? - Yes.
7054. And then as an extra precaution you put a man on the forecastle head? - Yes.
7055. That is right, is it? - Yes.
7056. Did you find it better for detecting ice; to have a man right in the bows like that? - Well, I do not know. This is my first experience of field ice. I think I saw the ice myself before they did.
7057. Did you have glasses? - I was not using them at the time. I looked through glasses after I had first seen it and could not make anything of it.
7058. Gill left your ship in Boston, did he not? - He did.
7059. Was he simply a donkey man? - Assistant donkey man? - Assistant donkey man.
7060. And he did not return? - He did not return.
7061. He had not a discharge? - No, he deserted; I entered him as deserted.
      The Attorney-General: Yes, you gave notice.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

7062. When you went down from the bridge to the chart room did you lie down? - No.
7063. But you went to sleep? - When?
7064. (The Commissioner.) When did you lose sight, and how, of the ship the lights of which you had seen? - The second officer reported to me he last saw her at 2 o'clock, and it was then bearing S.W. 1/2 W. by compass.
7065. Is that the last so far as you know that was seen of that vessel from your ship? - As far as I know it was, my Lord.
7066. And was she at this time about 5 miles away? - No, she must have been more by then.
7067. How many miles? - I think 8.
7068. You were both stopped, you know, all that time? - No, she was steaming, my Lord.
7069. I thought you told us that this steamer stopped? - She did at half-past 11.
7070. And when did she begin to go on again? - From the second officer's report she commenced about 1 o'clock - 10 minutes to 1.
7071. She could not steam very quickly, I suppose? - No, she would not be steaming very quickly.

Page 163

7072. She was in the middle of the ice? - Yes.
7073. And then at 2 o'clock, the time when we know the "Titanic" went down, the vessel vanished? - He saw her stern light through the glasses faintly.
7074. And that was the end of her? - That was the last he saw of her.
7075. And she has never been heard of since? - Not to my knowledge.
7076. (Mr. Scanlan.) Can you say when you went to sleep on the Monday morning? - I told the second officer I was going to lie down at 20 minutes to 1.
7077. When Gibson came into your room did you look to ascertain the time? - Not to my knowledge; I do not recollect Gibson coming into the room.
7078. I think you recollect his having spoken to you? - I said, "What is it?"
7079. Can you say what time that was? - I cannot.
7080. When did your Marconi operator come off duty? - So far as I was concerned he went off at 11 o'clock, after he had sent the last message.
7081. At 11 o'clock on the Sunday night? - Yes.
7082. When you were in doubt as to the name of this ship and as to the meaning of her sending up a rocket, could you not have ascertained definitely by calling in the assistance of your Marconi operator? - When? At 1 o'clock in the morning?
7083. Yes? - This steamer had been in sight, the one that fired the rocket, when we sent the last message to the "Titanic," and I was certain that the steamer was not the "Titanic", and the operator said he had not any other steamers, so I drew my conclusion that she had not got any wireless.
7084. I think you said from the appearance of the green light which you saw before going down from the bridge, you thought it was an electric light? - Did I say that?
7085. Yes. Well, you said that many steamers have electric lights? - They have.
7086. Did you think whether or not it was an electric light? - I did not think anything about it; I was not at all concerned about the steamer.
7087. Had this steamer which you saw, and which you say was, at all events, about the same size as your own, had an electric apparatus, and had you obtained the assistance of your operator, you could have got into direct communication with her, whoever she was? - You say if she had an electric apparatus?
7088. If she had a Marconi installation? - If she had had a Marconi, and we had, of course we could have got into communication.
7089. You had the Marconi? - Yes, we had.
7090. Would not it have been quite a simple thing for you at that time when you were in doubt as to what was the name of the ship, and as to what was the reason of her sending up rockets, to have wakened up your Marconi operator and asked him to speak to this ship? - It would if it had worried me a great deal, but it did not worry me. I was still thinking of the company's signal.
7091. At all events, now in the light of your experience, would it not have been a prudent thing to do? - Well, we would have got the "Titanic's" signals if we had done.
7092. If you had done you would, in all probability, have got the message from this vessel? - No. I do not think so. In my opinion that steamer had not got wireless at all.
7093. What reason have you for thinking that this steamer, a steamer which you say was, at all events, as big as your own, had not got wireless? - At 11 o'clock when I saw her the operator told me he had not got anything only the "Titanic." I remarked then, "That is not the 'Titanic," judging from its size and the number of lights about it; and if he only had one ship, then it was not the "Titanic." I do not see how he could still have that ship.
7094. But as a mere matter of precaution, when you were in doubt and left word that someone was to come down to your cabin and give you a message, would not it have been a proper thing to have tried the experiment? - Well, I was waiting for further information. I had a responsible officer on the bridge who was finding this out for me.
7095. At all events, having your Marconi apparatus it would have been no trouble whatever? - None whatever.
7096. To have got your operator to come to his room? - He was in his room.
7097. And he could have spoken this vessel? - If she had had wireless.
7098. If you had done this you would have found out whether she had wireless? - Very likely. If she had had it we would have got her.
7099. If she had had it you could have ascertained directly in what trouble she was when she sent up the rockets? - Yes.
7100. Is it in ocean-going vessels the usual practice and a recognised rule to double look outs in presence of ice, in a fog and in a haze? - Yes.
7101. Is that known by every captain? - I do not know. I know.
7102. It is the general rule? - As far as I know.
7103. Did you observe between 8 and 10 o'clock that night that there was a haze? - No, I did not.
7104. Can you say that there was not? - In my opinion there was not.
      The Commissioner: Do you know of any evidence except the evidence we have already heard, Mr. Scanlan, as to the existence of this supposed haze?
      Mr. Scanlan: I do not know anything else, my Lord; but what impresses me is that the look-out man on the "Titanic" not only himself says that there was a haze, but he says that his companion in the crow's-nest remarked on the haze to him.
      The Commissioner: Yes, I remember that, and I am asking you whether you know of any other evidence except that which we have heard?
7105. (Mr. Scanlan.) No, my Lord, I do not know. (To the Witness.) Is it possible that in regard to vessels separated by a distance of 19 miles there might be a haze on the horizon with one of them, and not a haze on the horizon with the other? - I have seen that.
7106. I mean it is a local effect? - I have seen that.
7107. Is a haze commonly produced by the presence of ice? - I do not know, I have not had a great experience in ice.
7108. You have not had a great experience in ice? - No.
7109. Is it not well known that ice is more easily seen the nearer you are to the water, especially field ice? - I do not know, I have not heard that.
7110. You have not heard that? - No.
7111. You have not had much experience of ice? - No I have not; of field ice this is my first experience.
7112. When you first had warning of the presence of ice did you slow down? - No.
7113. You did not slow down? - No.
7114. Is it not usual to slow down in the presence of ice? - No, not in clear weather.
7115. At what speed were you going? - 11 knots.
7116. But if you are in a haze is it usual to slow down? - In an ice district, yes.
7117. When you stopped on account of the ice what lights were you showing? - Two masthead lights, the red and green sidelights, and a stern light.
7118. How far do you think from your ship her lights would be observable by another ship? - The masthead lights?
7119. Yes? - I suppose the masthead lights you would see 7 or 8 miles - 8 miles I should think.
7120. Suppose the "Titanic" was 7 or 8 miles from you between 11. 30 and 12 o'clock, would those on her bridge have been able to see your lights? - Easily.
7121. Do you practise your hands at boat drill? - We do.

Page 165

7122. Regularly? - Once a passage.
7123. And have you a boat muster? - Well, that is a boat muster.
7124. What does it consist of? We have not heard yet what a proper boat muster consists of. Will you explain it to my Lord? - I do not know if it is a proper boat muster, but I can tell you what I do. I usually muster all hands on deck; the chief officer calls the names over, and as they pass him they report their boat, and they also report their fire station from the boat list. They line up by their boats. When every man has reported the boat he belongs to and his fire station I usually have a fire drill; I report a fire in one side of the ship, and they run to that side and connect the fire hose; and I usually swing a couple of boats out on the other side.
7125. Are your lifeboats provisioned in case of accident before you commence a particular voyage? - They are provisioned all the time with water and biscuits.
7126. And a compass? - A compass, lamp, oil, sea anchor.
7127. Are all those in each boat before the voyage begins? - They are in all the time.
7128. All the time? - All the time.
7129. In readiness for any emergency? - And renewed every voyage.
7130. Then all your hands know exactly the station to go to? - They do.

Examined by Mr. ROCHE.

7131. You had never been in ice before? - Not in field ice.
7132. You stopped your engines at half-past 10 when you got amongst it? - 20 minutes past.
7133. And you did not put them ahead again until something after four in the morning? - The first move was 5.15.
7134. You were treating the ice, so to speak, with great respect, and behaved with great caution with regard to it? - I was treating it with every respect.
7135. May I take it that you were not anxious if you could help it, between 10 o'clock and 5 o'clock, to move your engines? - I did not want to move them if I could help it. They were ready to move at a moment's notice.
7136. Was that the reason, perhaps, why you were not so inquisitive as to these signals as you might otherwise have been? - No, that had not anything to do with it.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

7137. I understand when you saw ice first this evening it was before 6? - It must have been about 5.
7138. So that it was pretty clear daylight then? - It was perfectly clear - a beautiful day.
7139. So that, it being clear at that time, you did not consider at that moment that it was necessary to slacken speed? - No.
7140. But assuming that you had first heard of ice at 11. 30 that night, would not you have considered it necessary? Did you, as a matter of fact, that night later on slacken speed? - Not until 20 minutes past 10.
7141. You were only going 11 knots an hour? - That was my full speed.
7142. Thirteen, I thought you said? - Driving. On my consumption then, 11 knots.
7143. Having seen ice and knowing you were on the verge of an ice-field, would you not have considered, provided you could have driven the ship at that speed, that 21 knots an hour would be grossly excessive? - Oh, I do not know anything about that.
7144. Under the conditions, ice being in the immediate vicinity, is not that a very high speed? - It was a clear night.
7145. It may have been. Is not it a high speed? - Twenty-one knots is a high speed.
7146. A very high speed? - Yes, very fast.
7147. And an ice-field is very dangerous? - If you hit it.
7148. And at night it is sometimes not easy to see ice? - I do not know. I saw it.
7149. You may have. So you tell us. But do you not consider that 21 knots an hour, or, rather, 45 knots in two hours, was a grossly excessive speed? - I really do not know. It all depends on how quickly that ship handles.
7150. That is to say, on how quickly she responds to the rudder? - To the rudder and engines.
7151. Now, supposing you saw ice right ahead, what message would you send down from the bridge to the engine room? - It all depends what the ice was like.
7152. Supposing you saw a berg of ice on your starboard side? - One solitary berg?
7153. Yes? - On my starboard side?
7154. And you were making for it head on? - That would be right ahead; that would not be on the starboard side.
7155. Slightly to the starboard? - I should starboard the helm; go further away from it.
7156. What direction would you give as to the engines? - I would not give any.
7157. You would go right on? - I would go right on if it was a single berg.
7158. There were two engines, a starboard engine and a port engine on the "Titanic." Suppose you sent the message, "Starboard engine ahead; port engine reverse," what effect would that have on the steamer? - It would twist her head to port.
7159. Would it turn the steamer in her own length? - I do not know; I have no experience of 21 knot steamers.
7160. You have not? - No.
7161. Would it be likely to get rid of the berg quickly? - Oh, yes, to get away from it; that would be the idea of stopping the port engine or reversing it.
7162. Reverse the port and keep ahead with the starboard? - That would twist it quicker.
7163. At once? - Very quickly.
7164. That would be the quickest way of altering the course of the steamer? - I should think so.
7165. You have told us you have four lifeboats for a crew of 102? - Four lifeboats and two ordinary ships' boats.
7166. Is that the normal complement for cargo boats like yours to carry, prescribed by the Board of Trade? - We have more, I think, than are really required.
7167. (The Commissioner.) Is it a crew of 102?
      Mr. Harbinson: Yes.
      The Witness: That is including the passengers.
      Mr. Harbinson: I am including passengers and crew.
7168. (The Commissioner.) But you had not any passengers? - No, we only had 48 at the time.
7169. (Mr. Harbinson.) But you have a carrying capacity of 102? - Yes.
7170. And four lifeboats to make provision for them? - Yes, and two ships' boats.
7171. Is four lifeboats the number of boats prescribed for steamers of your class by the Board of Trade? - I do not know; I think that would be excessive. They do not require you to carry double the boat accommodation for the crew you have in the ship.
      The Commissioner: I do not want to hurry you at all, but we are not at present concerned to inquire whether this ship, the "Californian," was properly supplied with lifeboats. If I am to sit here and inquire into the manning and equipment of every vessel referred to I shall never finish.
      Mr. Harbinson: Quite so, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: I do not want to hurry you or to shut out anything, but do not ask needless questions.

Page 166

Mr. Harbinson: If I may say so, my Lord, of course, I accept your Lordship's suggestion. The point I was going to make was that if this proportion of lifeboat accommodation had been provided for the "Titanic," of course the whole of the passengers would have been saved.
The Commissioner: Well, that may be. You can do that without asking these questions.

7172. (Mr. Harbinson - To the Witness.) Now I want to put a further question to you about the look-out men. You have a crow's-nest on your boat? - Yes.
1. Is it an able-bodied seaman you keep posted there usually? - Yes, always.
2. Is it a most responsible position? - Oh, I suppose it is.
3. To detect danger ahead? - Yes.
4. Do you not think that the responsibility of that position would be better satisfied if a junior officer was also posted in the crow's-nest along with the able-bodied seamen? - Do you mean in my own ship?
5. In any ship. I ask you now from your general experience as a captain and a seagoing man? - No. If you have an officer on the bridge, I think that is quite sufficient.

The Commissioner: Now that is not the answer you wanted. He is giving you an answer that you did not want, and I respectfully submit you may leave him alone now.

Examined by Mr. CLEMENT EDWARDS.

7173. I think you said that you did not give any instructions to the Marconi operator to try and ascertain the name of this vessel? - No; I did at 11 o'clock.
7174. Not after 11 o'clock? - Not after 11 o'clock.
7175. You have given evidence, I believe, before the American Court of Enquiry? - I have.
7176. Did you at that Inquiry, in reply to a question, say "about 1 o'clock I told the operator to call the ship again"? - No.
7177. So that if you are so reported, it is untrue? - It is.
7178. You said, I think, that when the lad came you have a faint recollection -
      The Commissioner: Have you got the print of the shorthand note of the evidence of this witness in America?
      Mr. Clement Edwards: I have not, my Lord, but I have what purports to be a verbatim question and answer given by this witness before the American Enquiry.
      The Commissioner: Where does it come from?
      Mr. Clement Edwards: Reuter's Agency, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: Was it telegraphed to this country verbatim?
      Mr. Clement Edwards: Yes, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: Well, read it to him. Put it to him specifically.
      The Attorney-General: I have it, my Lord; I cannot say I have read it.
      The Commissioner: Put it specifically to him.
      Mr. Clement Edwards: There are certain matters into which this witness has given testimony this morning, and it would be more convenient, if I may respectfully suggest it, if I put to him certain quite specific questions.
      The Commissioner: Follow your own course.
7179. (Mr. Clement Edwards - To the Witness.) You said, I think, that you have no recollection of the lad Gibson saying anything when he came to the chart room in the morning? - No, I have no recollection.
7180. Did you. tell the American Court of Enquiry -
      The Commissioner: I understood you to say something different from that; I understood you to say that the boy said nothing.
      Mr. Clement Edwards: That is what I understood the witness to say now.
      The Commissioner: Oh, no; now he says that he does not remember that he said anything. I understood him first to say that the boy came in and shut the door, that he then said to the boy, "What is it?" and that the boy behaved in a most extraordinary manner by shutting the door and going away.
7181. (Mr. Clement Edwards - To the Witness.) What do you say? - Do you remember the lad saying anything or not? - I do not remember him saying anything.
7182. (The Commissioner.) Do you remember that he said nothing? - He did not say anything to me as far as I know.
7183. (Mr. Clement Edwards.) Did you tell the American Court of Enquiry, "I have a faint recollection of hearing the cabin boy about four o'clock saying something about the ship still standing by"? - I did not.
7184. As a matter of fact you were expecting the lad to come back with a message from the officer as to whether the ship was still there? - Not to come back; I was expecting him to come down for the first time.
7185. So that you were expecting a message from the lad? - I was expecting a message from the officer.
7186. (The Commissioner.) By the lad? - By the Apprentice.
7187. (Mr. Clement Edwards.) And you said nothing of that before the American Court? - About what you have just read?
7188. Yes? - No.
7189. Did you tell the American Court that "there were flashes of light from this ship; they might have been signals of distress or Morse messages"? - No, Sir.
7190. You said nothing about flashes of light? - I said the Second Officer reported this one rocket which I have mentioned here this morning.
7191. Did you say anything at all about there being flashes of light, and they might have been Morse signals? - No.
7192. Nothing at all? - Nothing at all.
7193. You have said that there was no haze that night? - Yes.
7194. Did you tell the American Court of Enquiry that the light that night was very extraordinary; the conditions were very deceiving? - I told them it was a very strange night; it was hard to define where the sky ended and the water commenced. There was what you call a soft horizon. I was sometimes mistaking the stars low down on the horizon for steamer's lights.
7195. What is that condition of things due to, if it is not due to a haze? - I do not know; just a flash, that is all.
7196. What do you suggest as a characteristic of the atmosphere on a night of that sort? - I really could not say. We could see a light the full limit of my vessel.
7197. You have said that when you heard from the "Virginian" in the morning that the "Titanic" had gone down, and when you heard that she was 19 miles away you did say something about: "Well, you ought to have seen her signals"? - I did not say it; I thought it.
7198. Did you tell the American Court of Enquiry that at 19 miles distance it would be utterly impossible to see either distress signals or Morse flashes? - I did not say "utterly impossible."
7199. Do you say it was impossible? - No. I said I did not think it would be possible to see them at that distance. If they were seen they would be so low on the horizon they might be shooting stars.
7200. You now think that it was possible? - That we might have seen them.
7201. At what time did you think it was possible? - At half-past six the next morning I was thinking about it.
7202. Before you were asked these questions at the American Enquiry, you thought it was possible to have seen these lights? - I thought it might have been possible.

Page 167

7203. And you told the American Enquiry that you thought it was not possible? - I did not think it was possible.
7204. When did you first hear of the message from the "Titanic" that you were to shut up and keep off as they were busy? - Some time during the morning of the 15th.
7205. Did you regard it as an insulting message? - Oh, no.
7206. Did either of your officers regard it as an insulting message? - No.
7207. (The Commissioner.) Is a record kept of these messages? - Yes, my Lord.
7208. By the operator? - By the operator.
      The Attorney-General: We are going to call him.
7209. (Mr. Clement Edwards.) Why did you tell them that you were surrounded by ice? Did you want to warn them that you were in danger at all? - It is usual, when we see it, to send out messages that we have seen it to all ships in the vicinity.
7210. When you said that you were surrounded by ice, was that to warn them of your danger? - No; to warn them, so that they would know if they were in the vicinity, or pass the word on to other steamers.
7211. That is to say, it was a message of courtesy? - A message of advice.
7212. It was rather a snub, was it not? - Who for?
7213. For them to tell you in reply to that, "Shut up, and keep off"? - I suppose it was, more or less.
7214. And did your officer who received it take it as so? - I do not think so.
7215. You had no conversation with him about it? - I asked him the next morning what they said. When I heard that the "Titanic" had sunk, I sent along and asked him whether he delivered the message I sent at 11 o'clock. He said he had, and they told him to please keep quiet, or shut up.
7216. To shut up? - Something like that; they were busy.
7217. Did you have any conversation with him as to the character of this message? - No.
7218. None at all? - No.
7219. Which officer was that? - That was the wireless operator.
7220. He reported to you directly? - He reported to me directly.
7221. Did he when he got that message report to the officer on the watch? - I was on watch myself then, at 11 o'clock.
7222. Then he did not report to you? - No; I do not think he came on deck again.
7223. Did not you tell the American Court of Enquiry that the operator did come to you at 11 o'clock, and that you then told him to try and find out what was the name of the ship that had stopped close by? - No.
7224. You did not? - No.

Examined by Mr. LEWIS.

7225. How long have you been in charge of a ship; how long have you been a Captain? - I beg your pardon?
7226. (The Commissioner.) You are asked how long you have had a captain's certificate? - Since 1901.
7227. (Mr. Lewis.) Do you consider it reasonable, seeing that you had very little experience of ice, to go below to the chart room and lie there? - When a ship is stopped?
7228. Yes? - Perfectly justified.
7229. Do you consider it reasonable, in view of the fact that you had been in communication with other ships that your wireless operator should have gone off duty at 11 o'clock? - Yes.
7230. Can you tell us what control you have over the operators? - I do not know that we have any great control. They are amenable to the discipline of the ship to a certain extent, but their hours I do not think I have anything to do with.
7231. They are under the control, I understand, of the Marconi Company? - To a certain extent they are.
7232. To what extent; can you tell us? - No.
7233. Can you tell us if you pay them? - No, they pay them.
7234. So that you have only control so far as the mere discipline is concerned? - If I wanted to get a message sent at any time, day or night, I would send it.
7235. Are you interested in messages received by the ship? - What is that?
      The Commissioner: What do you mean by "interested"? Do you mean, "Does he receive any money in connection with them?"
      Mr. Lewis: No.
      The Commissioner: What is it then?
7236. (Mr. Lewis.) I am anxious to know when messages are being received, important messages, whether the captain is at all interested to find out what is happening. (To the Witness.) I understand you were in communication with the "Titanic"? - Yes.
7237. Would you consider it dangerous for the "Titanic" to be so close to the ice? - I did not know where the "Titanic" was. I never had her position.
7238. I understand you to say she may have been a long way away? - Anywhere.
7239. She may have been close? - She may have been close or away past.
7240. If she had been 19 miles away, would not her position have been dangerous? - I did not know. I did not know at all how far the ice extended.
7241. It may have extended that distance? - It was more than likely.
7242. If the "Titanic" had been close to it, it would have been extremely dangerous to the "Titanic"? - If they were not keeping a look-out.
7243. Particularly to a large steamer? - If they were not keeping a look-out.
7244. We know now that it has been in evidence that they did have a look-out. You heard that, I take it, did not you, that they did have a look-out on the ship? - Yes.
7245. Under those circumstances, seeing that there was a possibility of the boat being near, do you consider it reasonable that you should go off duty? - Perfectly reasonable. I was looking after my own ship.
      The Commissioner: These are answers that do not do you the least good, and they are not the answers that you want.
7246. (Mr. Lewis.) Very well, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Do you consider it reasonable, knowing that you were in communication with the "Titanic" that you did not make inquiries from the operator - that you went on till next day before knowing what the reply was from the "Titanic"? - He would give the message I knew, and if he could not give the message he would come back and tell me, I should have thought.
7247. You consider that reasonable? - I do.

Examined by Sir ROBERT FINLAY.

7248. Just a very few questions: Who appoints and pays the Marconi man on board your boat? - The Marconi Company, I understand.
7249. Cape Race is the south-east point of Newfoundland, is it not? - Yes.
7250. Is it the great point for trade messages? - Yes, it is, I believe.
7251. Now with regard to your own vessel, where is the best point for a look-out, on the stem or the crow's-nest, in your vessel? - The man in the crow's-nest on a clear day would see a light further than a man on the foc'sle head of the ship would; but sometimes in hazy weather it is possible to see better from the foc'sle head than it is from the crow's-nest.
7252. And with regard to ice, where would that be best seen from? - On a clear night I think you would see just as well from the crow's-nest as you. would from the foc'sle head.

Page 168

7253. You had one man only in the crow's-nest? - One only.
7254. And one only on the stem? - On the foc'sle.
7255. As a matter of fact, I think you said that you saw the ice before either of them? - I reversed the engines myself before they reported it. Just as they were reporting it I had reversed the engines.
7256. Only one other question. You came to the point where the "Titanic" had been reported as having foundered, 41º 46 N., if I rightly understood you, and 50º 14 W.? - Yes.
7257. How far from that point was the "Mount Temple"? - I think she was very close to it. I should think she had been looking for the "Titanic" boats or wreckage, or something, she was stopped there.
7258. You went on from that point? - Yes.
7259. In what direction did you proceed after that point? - I steered, as far as I recollect, about South or South by East true from there along the edge of the ice - the western edge of the ice.
7260. How far did you go till you got to the wreckage? - I passed her somewhere about half-past seven - somewhere in the vicinity of half-past seven. I got there at half-past eight.
7261. What rate were you going at? - We were driving all we possibly could. The chief engineer estimates the speed at 13 1/2. I estimate it at 13.
7262. You were about an hour? - We were an hour.
7263. Had you also any observations to enable you to fix the spot where the wreckage was found? - I had very good observations at noon and that afternoon.
7264. How long did you remain on the spot where the wreckage was? - We arrived at half-past eight - 11.15.
7265. Can you give us your noon observations? - Yes; 41.33 N. and 50. 9 W.
7266. That is your noon position? - That is my noon position on the 15th April.
      The Attorney-General: That is the Monday morning.
7267. (Sir Robert Finlay.) When you left the scene of the wreckage, what course did you hold? - 11.20 proceeded on course N. 59, W. by compass.
7268. (The Commissioner.) Is that the ship's log? - This is the ship's log, my Lord.
7269. (Sir Robert Finlay.) What would that be true? - I think I was intending to make N. 89 W. I think that was my intention. The variation is 23 1/2, and I think the deviation was 5.
7270. What rate were you going? - I went slow. I came through the ice full speed to the ship, but I went back slow.
7271. Can you tell me, on your boat, do you supply the look-out man with glasses? - We do not.
7272. Why is that? - I have never heard of it before this Enquiry.
7273. In your experience, it is not usual? - I have only used them once, that was when I was looking for the "Titanic."
      Mr. Dunlop: May I ask some questions of the witness?
      The Attorney-General: I think you had better wait till I have finished. I am going to put something further to him, and I think you had better hear what he says first.

Further examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

7274. Mr. Stone is your Second Officer, is he not? - Yes.
7275. Did Mr. Stone send the Apprentice to report to you at any time? - Did he on this morning?
7276. I am speaking of this morning? - He told me afterwards that he had done so.
7277. At about 2 o'clock? - At about 2 o'clock.
7278. Did he tell you that there had been rockets sent up? - He did. That was the message the boy was supposed to have delivered to me. I heard it the next day.
7279. That is rather important, you see - that is the message which the boy was supposed to have delivered to you which you heard next day? - Yes.
7280. I want to put this to you. Did not the boy deliver the message to you, and did not you inquire whether they were all white rockets? - I do not know; I was asleep.
7281. Think. This is a very important matter. - It is a very important matter. I recognise that.
7282. It is much better to tell us what happened, Captain? - He came to the door, I understand. I have spoken to him very closely since. He said, I opened my eyes and said, "What is it"? and he gave the message; and I said, "What time is it"? and he told me, and then I think he said I asked him whether there were any colours in the light.
7283. That is what the boy has said to you. You have questioned him a good many times since? - Yes, I have questioned him since.
7284. Is he still an Apprentice in your ship? - He is.
      The Commissioner: Is he telling the truth? - Is the boy telling the truth?
7285. Yes. - I do not know. I do not doubt it for a moment.
7286. (The Attorney-General.) Just think. You say you do not doubt it for a moment. Do you see what that means. That means that the boy did go to the chart room to you. He did tell you about the rockets from the ship and you asked whether they were white rockets, and told him that he was to report if anything further occurred? - So he said. That is what he said.
7287. Have you any reason to doubt that is true? - No; I was asleep.
7288. Then do you mean you said this in your sleep to him, that he was to report? - I very likely was half awake. I have no recollection of this Apprentice saying anything to me at all that morning.
7289. Why did you ask whether they were white rockets? - I suppose this was on account of the first question they asked, whether they were Company's signals.
7290. Do just think? - Company signals usually have some colours in them.
7291. So that if they were white it would make it quite plain to you they were distress signals? - No, I understand some companies have white.
7292. Do really try and do yourself justice? - I am trying to do my best.
7293. Think you know. Mr. Lord, allow me to suggest you are not doing yourself justice. You are explaining, first of all, that you asked if they were white rockets, because companies' signals are coloured. I am asking you whether the point of your asking whether they were all white rockets was not in order to know whether they were distress signals? Was not that the object of your question, if you put it? - I really do not know what was the object of my question.
7294. And you think that is why you asked about it? - I think that is why I asked about it.
7295. I must ask you something more. Do you remember Mr. Stone reporting at twenty minutes to three to you that morning through the tube? - I do not.
7296. Is there a tube? - There is a tube.
7297. What is the tube? - A speaking tube.
7298. To your chart room? - To my own room.
7299. Were you in your own room? - No, I was in the chart room.
7300. Would you hear if he reported through the tube to you? - At a quarter-past one.
7301. He reported through the tube then? - At a quarter-past one.
7302. Listen to this - he reported to you at twenty minutes to three through the tube and told you that the steamer had disappeared bearing south-west half west. Do you remember that? - I do not remember it. He has told me that since.
7303. Have you any reason to doubt it? - I do not know anything at all about it.
7304. Have you any reason to doubt that Mr. Stone, the officer, is speaking the truth? - I do not see why he should not tell me the truth.

Page 169

7305. (The Commissioner.), Is he a reliable, trustworthy man? - As far as I know of him he is.
7306. (The Attorney-General.) Is he still with you? - He is still with me.
7307. Listen to this: - "The Captain again asked me if I was sure there were no colours in the lights that had been seen." Do you remember that? - I do not.
7308. "And that he" - Mr. Stone - "assured you that they were white lights"? - He has told me all about this since, but I have not the slightest recollection that anything happened that way.
7309. He has told you of this - what he reported to you that night? - Yes.
7310. And you have no reason to doubt it? - If he is telling the truth I have not.
7311. Do you doubt it at all? - I do not know.
7312. This is what he says: "I assured him that they were white lights, and he" - that is you - "said 'All 'right.'" Have you no recollection of that conversation? - I have no recollection of any conversation between half-past one and half-past four that I had with the second officer.
7313. There is only one thing further I want to ask you, who is Mr. Stewart? - The Chief Officer.
7314. Was it he who called you at half-past four? - Yes.
7315. And was it he who told you that the second mate had seen rockets? - Yes.
7316. And did you reply "Yes, I know."? - I said, Yes, they certainly had told me something about a rocket.
7317. Do you observe the difference in the question I put to you and your answer? - You mentioned rockets; I mentioned rocket.
7318. That the second mate had said he had seen rockets, and you replied, "Yes, I know." Very well. Now I want to ask you something further. When you were not satisfied that the rocket which you had seen was a company's signal, there was no difficulty in your calling your Marconi operator, was there? - None whatever.
7319. If you had called him you would have been in communication with the "Titanic," as I understand it? - Yes, I believe she was sending out signals.
7320. And you would have received the "Titanic's" messages? - Yes.
7321. If the Marconi operator had been called up then, and he had put the receiver on he would have heard the "Titanic's" messages? - Yes.
7322. Do you understand Marconi telegraphy at all? - I know the idea of it. I cannot use it.
7323. Do you know the C.Q.D. signal? - I know it.
7324. And the S.O.S.? - Yes.
7325. Can you receive that signal? - They go too quickly for me.
      The Commissioner: What does C.Q.D. mean?
7326. (The Attorney-General.) C.Q.D. means "Come quick, danger." They are danger signals; and S.O.S. - I am not sure I am quite right about this - is the same signal which has been adopted by a Telegraphic Convention, which means "Save our Souls." The object of the S.O.S. is that it is a very short signal by the Morse code. That is, I understand, the reason why it is given in that way. (To the Witness.) So that anybody on your ship who had put the receiver to his ears would have then heard the "Titanic's" message, the C.Q.D. or the S.O.S.? - They would have heard the buzzing, yes.
7327. They would have been able to distinguish the signal as long as she was giving it? - The operator would. I do not think anyone else on the ship would.
7328. The operator would if you had called him? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: He has produced apparently the log of this vessel. Have you examined it?
      The Attorney-General: I have not.
7329. (The Commissioner.) I think you should. (To the Witness.) Is there any reference in the log to your steamer having seen these rockets? - No, Sir.
7330. Or this mysterious ship which was not the "Titanic"? - No, Sir.
7331. Is it not usual to record these things in the log? - We never realised what these rockets were, my Lord. If they had been distress rockets they would have been mentioned in the log.
7332. But the next morning you knew the "Titanic" had gone down? - Yes.
7333. Did you make no record then in your log of the signals that you had seen? - No.
7334. Why not? - We never took them to be distress rockets. The second officer's explanation to me of these rockets was that they were not distress rockets.
7335. Why was all reference to these rockets left out of the log? - If we had realised they were distress rockets we would have entered them, my Lord.
7336. Do you mean that nobody on board your ship supposed that they might be distress signals? - The Second Officer, the man in charge of the watch, said most emphatically they were not distress rockets.
7337. Is there anyone on board your boat who thinks that they were? - Not to my knowledge, my Lord. I have not spoken to any of the crew about it.
7338. (The Attorney-General.) Will you let me see the log. Who wrote it up? - The Chief Officer writes the log.
7339. (The Commissioner.) Mr. Stewart? - Yes; and initialed by each officer at his end of the watch.
      Mr. Dunlop: I have a typewritten copy of the log here if you would like to see it.
7340. (The Attorney-General.) I would rather see the original. (The log was handed to the Attorney-General.) My friend, Mr. Edwards, put some questions about what happened at the Court of Inquiry in America. I have the Report from America, and I think it is right to put this to the witness. (To the Witness.) I see you said this in answer to Senator Smith, in America: "When I came off the bridge at half-past ten I pointed out to the officer that I thought I saw a light coming along, and it was a most peculiar light. We had been making mistakes all along with the stars, thinking they were signals"? - "Most peculiar night," I think that should be.
7341. It may be. "We could not distinguish where the sky ended and where the water commenced." That is right, is it not? - Yes, that is what I have said.
      The Commissioner: When is this witness going to sea?
7342. (The Attorney-General.) When does your ship sail? - Saturday, Sir.
7343. (The Commissioner.) Where will you be in the meanwhile? - I am going back home, Sir.
7344. Where is home? - Liscard, Cheshire.
7345. (The Attorney-General.) 10, Ormond Street, Liscard, Cheshire? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. DUNLOP.

7346. When did you go on duty on the Sunday morning? - I got up the usual time - 7 o'clock in the morning.
7347. And were you on duty the whole of that day? - I was on deck practically the whole of that day.
7348. Had you got reports from east-bound steamers of the presence of ice? - Yes.
7349. And were you keeping a look-out for ice in consequence of those reports? - I was.
7350. And I think on that day you encountered ice as we have heard? - We did.
7351. You retired to your chart room at 12.15? - 12.15.
7352. Did you undress? - No.
7353. Did you fall asleep at first? - I did not fall asleep before twenty minutes to one.
7354. And at 12.40 you got the report from the Second Officer that the steamer which had previously been seen was still in the same position? - Still in the same position.
7355. (Mr. Dunlop.) At 1.15, you have told us, you got a report -

Page 170

The Attorney-General: I do not quite know what this is leading to. My friend is supposing to be cross-examining this witness. If not, I think it would be better to allow him to tell his story himself. I do not quite appreciate what my friend's position is. I quite understand that he is here for the protection of the master, and I am raising no objection to that, but in all the circumstances I think it would be better to let him tell a little of the story.
Mr. Dunlop: I am coming to the part I want him to speak about.
The Commissioner: I do not think any harm has been done.
The Attorney-General: I am only intervening so that it may not be done later.

7357. (Mr. Dunlop.) I have brought you to 1.15, the time that you got the second report? - Yes.
7358. You told us what that report was - that the steamer had commenced to alter her bearing to the south-west? - Yes.
7359. What did that report lead you to infer? - That she was steaming away from it.
7360. And if she was steaming to the south-west would the masthead lights in the ordinary course of things disappear? - Yes.
7361. And would she open then her stern light? - She would open her stern light.
7362. How far is the stern light supposed to be visible? - According to the law it is supposed to be visible at two miles.
7363. One mile is the law? - Is it one mile?
7364. But sometimes they show much further? - Much further.
7365. But they do not show so far as the masthead lights? - No.
7366. Might it be that the masthead lights disappeared, showing a stern light, which was not in fact visible at that distance? - Very likely, yes.
7367. At what time was it, do you think, that you fell asleep after 1.15? - I think it was somewhere after half-past one. I could hear the officer Morsing. I could hear the tick of the Morse machine over my head.
7368. Did you sleep soundly? - I must have done.
7369. If the Apprentice came to your room subsequently, are you conscious of anything that he said to you or what you said to him? - All I recollect saying is, "What is it?"
7370. Did you remain asleep until 4.30? - Until 4.30.
7371. Then did you go on the bridge? - I went on the bridge.
7372. And I think you afterwards heard of the sinking of the "Titanic"? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: We have had all this, you know.
7373. (Mr. Dunlop.) I am coming now, my Lord, to the questions I wanted to put. (To the Witness.) You were surprised about the "Titanic." Did you question your Second Officer as to why you had not been called? - I did.
7374. What was his explanation to you? - He said that he had sent down and called me; he had sent Gibson down, and Gibson had told him I was awake and I had said, "All right, let me know if anything is wanted." I was surprised at him not getting me out, considering rockets had been fired. He said if they had been distress rockets he would most certainly have come down and called me himself, but he was not a little bit worried about it at all.
7375. If they had been distress rockets he would have called you? - He would have come down and insisted upon my getting up.
7376. And was it his view that they were not distress rockets? - That was apparently his view.
7377. The position which the "Virginian" reported to you was, I think, 19 1/2 miles South, 16 West, of your position? - Yes.
7378. How many miles had you, in fact, to steam to get to the place where the wreckage was found? - I should think 30 miles at the least.
7379. Were you able to proceed to the position indicated by the "Virginian" on a direct course? - No.
7380. What prevented you from doing that? - The ice.
7381. Can you indicate what the condition of the ice was between where you were lying and the place where the wreckage was found? - Ice-field - dense ice-field.
7382. Can you tell us what the extent of the ice-field was? - The width of it?
7383. Yes, the width of it from your position to the position of the wreck? - It was running north and south after the style of a T, and the T was dividing the position where the "Titanic" was supposed to have sunk and where we were. I suppose for the two or three miles all the way down to where she was it was studded with bergs and loose ice.
7384. If any vessel was proceeding in a south-westerly direction towards the place where the "Titanic" was she would encounter this field ice? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: You are falling into the error that the Attorney-General warned you not to fall into. You are putting the words into the man's mouth. You might as well hand your proof to him and tell him to read it out.
7385. (Mr. Dunlop.) Did you prepare a rough sketch to show the position of the ice and also the course which you took from 6 a.m. to 8.30 a.m.? - Yes, I did, I drew a rough sketch of it.
      Mr. Dunlop: I would like your lordship to see the sketch he has made.
      The Commissioner: Hand it up.
      (The sketch was handed in.)
      The Witness: It is not to scale or anything.
      Mr. Dunlop: Does that sketch show the position of the field ice? - Yes.
7386. And the various icebergs? - Yes, and the various icebergs round.
7387. And it shows the course, does it, which you took to avoid the field ice on your way to the "Titanic"? - Yes.
7388. I think you had to cut through first of all 3 miles of field ice? - Two or three miles.
      Mr. Dunlop: That is between 6 and 6.30. Does your lordship see the three miles of field ice?
7389. (The Commissioner.) Where did you draw this thing? - I drew that in Boston, my Lord.
7390. Before you were examined in the American Court? - Yes.
7391. Where were you in Boston when you drew it? - Aboard the ship.
7392. Who was with you? - No one.
7393. You sat down and did it yourself? - Yes.
7394. (Mr. Dunlop.) Was that after you had been summoned to give evidence at the American Enquiry? - No.
7395. Before that? - Before.
7396. (The Commissioner.) What did you do it for? - After the statement that this man Gill made in the papers that we were supposed to have ignored the "Titanic" signals I knew at once there would be an Enquiry over it.
7397. You drew it for the purpose of showing that you had not ignored the signals? - I did it for the purpose of showing where we were and the course we traveled on our way down to the ship.
7398. But you wanted it in order to meet the charge that was made? - I did, my Lord.
7399. (Mr. Dunlop.) Your Lordship will see they first of all cut through three miles of field ice. (To the Witness.) Then at 6.30 you steered a southerly course and passed the "Mount Temple" and stopped at about 7.30? - Yes.
7400. Was there another vessel near the "Mount Temple"? - There was a two-masted steamer, pink funnel, black top, steering north down to the north-west.
      The Commissioner: Have you seen this rough sketch?
      The Attorney-General: No.
      The Commissioner: Do you want to see it?
      The Attorney-General: Yes, I should like to see it.
      (The sketch was handed to the learned Counsel.)
7401. (Mr. Dunlop.) After 7.30 had you to navigate through the field ice again? - Yes, I ran along till I got to the "Carpathia" bearing north-east and then I cut straight through the ice at full speed.

Page 171

7402. From 7.30 to 8.30? - We were not going through ice the whole of that time. We were running till it must have been about eight.
7403. Supposing you had known at 1.15 a.m. that the "Titanic" was in distress somewhere to the southward and westward of you, could you, in fact, have reached her before she sank? - What time did she sink?
7404. (The Commissioner.) Do not you know? - I have heard so many different rumours of that out in the States that I really do not know.
7405. What time do you think she sank? - Somewhere between 2 and 3.
7406. (Mr. Dunlop.) Assuming that she sank somewhere between 2 and 3, could you, in fact, if you had known at 1.15 a.m. in the morning that the "Titanic" was in distress to the southward and westward of you, have reached her before, say, 3 a.m.? - No, most certainly not.
7407. Could you have navigated with any degree of safety to your vessel at night through the ice that you, in fact, encountered? - It would have been most dangerous.
      The Commissioner: Am I to understand that this is what you mean to say, that if he had known that the vessel was the "Titanic" he would have made no attempt whatever to reach it?
7408. (Mr. Dunlop.) No, my Lord. I do not suggest that. (To the Witness.) What would you have done? No doubt you would have made an attempt? - Most certainly I would have made every effort to go down to her.
7409. Would the attempt from what you now know in fact have succeeded? - I do not think we would have got there before the "Carpathia" did, if we would have got there as soon.
      The Commissioner: You must leave this sketch with me.
      The Attorney-General: And perhaps we might keep the log till the other officers have been examined.
      The Commissioner: Mr. Dunlop, what is this long statement in pencil on this piece of paper?
      Mr. Dunlop: Something at the back, my Lord?
      The Commissioner: Yes.
      Mr. Dunlop: I have not seen that. I have only seen the plan.
      The Commissioner: There is a very long statement on the back.
      Mr. Dunlop: I have not seen that, my Lord. Perhaps that is something he wrote out.
7410. (The Commissioner - To Capt. Lord.) What is this long statement on this piece of paper on which you have made a chart? - They were the notes I made in Boston at the time I made the sketch.
7411. Are these notes supposed to tell the story from your point of view? - Yes, private notes I made.

(The Witness withdrew.)

JAMES GIBSON, Sworn.

Examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL.

7412. Is your name James Gibson? - Yes.
7413. How old are you? - Twenty.
7414. Just give us your address? - 38, Railway Terrace, Southport.
7415. Were you an Apprentice on the "Californian"? - Yes.
7416. And on this night, between Sunday, 14th, and Monday, 15th, what time did you go on watch, on duty? - Twelve o'clock midnight.
7417. Was your watch the middle watch? - Yes.
7418. Twelve to four? - Yes.
7419. Which of the officers was in charge in the middle watch? - The Second Officer.
7420. Is that Mr. Stone? - Yes.
7421. He would be on the bridge? - Yes.
7422. When you came on duty at midnight did you find that your ship had stopped? - Yes.
7423. We have been told she stopped some time before half-past ten? - Yes.
7424. When was it that you saw any ship's light round you first? - About twenty minutes past twelve.
7425. What was the light that you saw? - A white masthead light and a red sidelight.
7426. Could you see both those lights clearly? - I could see the red light with the glasses.
7427. You used glasses to see the red light, the port light, but you could see the white light, could you, with your naked eyes? - Yes.
7428. Could you see more than one white light? - I saw a glare of lights on her after deck.
7429. You mean the port-hole lights? - A glare of white lights on her after deck.
7430. I do not think you quite answered the question I was putting to you. Did you or did you not see any second white steamer lights? - Not distinctly, sir.
7431. Do you mean you are not sure whether you could see it or not? - No.
7432. Not sure? - No.
7433. Do you know at all which way your ship, the "Californian," was heading? - I was told afterwards that she was heading east-north-east.
7434. So that she was really pointing in the opposite direction to the direction she had been steaming? - I could not say.
7435. She was going from the east to the west? - I do not know what she was steering.
7436. She was going from Europe to America? - Yes.
7437. And she was pointing how? - East-north-east.
7438. Where did the lights of this steamer you have spoken of bear from you? - Right on the starboard beam.
7439. Would that be broad on the starboard beam? - Right on the starboard beam.
7440. Did you form any view as to how far away the ship was? - From four to seven miles.
      1. You thought she was from four to seven miles away? - Yes.
7441. Did you notice anything about her masthead light, her white light? - Yes.
7442. What was it? - It was flickering.
7443. Did you form an opinion about it; what did you think she was doing? - I thought it was a Morse light calling us up.
7444. That would be using her masthead light to send Morse signals? - I did not know it was the masthead light then.
7445. Using a light to send Morse signals? - Yes.
7446. Did you report this? - I went to the keyboard and called it up. I went to our keyboard and called her up.
7447. Is the keyboard that you speak of the keyboard, that would work your Morse signaling? - Yes, Sir.
7448. When you work your Morse signaling with your keyboard, what is the light that you flash? - On top of the bridge.
7449. Do you know how to use the keyboard and send Morse signals? - Yes.
7450. So that you went to your keyboard to send them? - Yes.
7451. When you tried to call up this steamer with your Morse signals, could you get into communication with her? - No, Sir; the lights were still flickering.
7452. Could you read at all the message, if it was a message, which this flickering light was sending? - Yes, Sir.
7453. You could? - Yes.
7454. What was it you read? - I did not read any message.
7455. Could you read it if it was clear? - I could have done if it was a Morse light, but I looked at her through the glasses afterwards, and found it was a masthead light.

Page 172

7456. Then the light went on flickering, did it? - Yes.
7457. And did you look at it then through glasses? - Yes.
7458. And when you did that you say you made out that it was a masthead light? - Yes.
7459. And did you come to the conclusion that she was not sending any Morse messages at all? - Yes.
7460. You have told us, I think, that the officer of the watch was Mr. Stone, the Second Officer? - Yes.
7461. Did you report to him; did you call his attention to the lights you had seen? - Yes.
7462. I suppose this would all take a little time. You said about a quarter-past twelve you noticed the light first. By the time you had finished your attempt with the Morse signaling what time would it be? - About getting on for 25 past.
7463. A little later than that, did the Second Officer, Mr. Stone, say anything to you about this ship? - At five minutes to one.
7464. What was it he told you? - That she had fired five rockets.
7465. That was at five minutes to one? - Yes.
7466. Had you not been on the bridge all the time? - No, Sir. I went down at twenty-five minutes to and came up at five minutes to one.
7467. You went down at twenty-five minutes to one and came up at five minutes to one, and it is when you come up that this message is given? - Yes.
7468. Could you still see her lights? - Yes, Sir.
7469. Was she still in the same position? - No, Sir. She was about two and a half points before the starboard beam.
7470. Can you tell us whether your ship during that hour had been heading the same way, or whether she had shifted her position? - The ship was swinging round.
7471. Your ship was? - Yes.
7472. Of course, if your ship was swinging round, even though the other ship was stationary, after a bit her lights would bear differently from you? - Yes.
7473. When you say it was 2 1/2 points upon the starboard beam, do you mean forward of the starboard beam? - Before the beam.
7474. Five and a-half from the bows? - Yes.
7475. You say that the "Californian" was swinging. Can you tell me, do you know, which way she was swinging? - She was swinging towards the nor'ard.
7476. Now, I just want to get what happened after that. You have told me that the Second Officer said to you that the ship had fired five rockets? - Yes.
7477. Did he tell you anything else about what he had been doing while you had not been there? - He told me that he had reported it to the Captain.
7478. Did he tell you what the Captain had instructed him to do? - Yes.
7479. What was it? - To call her up on the Morse light.
7480. Did he tell you whether he had tried to call her up on the Morse light? - Yes.
7481. Had he? - Yes.
7482. What had been the result? - She had not answered him, but fired more rockets.
7483. Did you see her fire these further rockets? - I saw three rockets.
7484. You saw three? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: Does this mean that there were ten rockets fired by this time?
7485. (The Solicitor-General.) I was just going to find out the same thing. (To the Witness.) Let. us get it quite clear. The Second Officer had told you, you say, that she had sent up five rockets? - Yes.
7486. And you say that you saw three rockets? - Yes.
7487. Did the Second Officer tell you of any more than the five? - No.
7488. Then as far as the report to you went he told you of five before you came back at five minutes to one? - Yes.
7489. And after that you saw three more yourself? - Yes.
7490. How soon was that after you had come back at five minutes to one? - As soon as I went on the bridge at five minutes to one. I called her up as soon as the Second Officer told me.
7491. You called her up on the Morse? - Yes.
7492. You mean the Second Officer gave you orders to do that? - Yes.
7493. And she did not respond to you? - No.
7494. And then you saw these rockets? - Yes.
7495. Give me an idea of the time - would that take long, or was it at once? - Well, I called her up for about three minutes, and I had just got the glasses on to her when I saw her fire the rocket. That was the first one.
7496. The first of the three? - Yes.
7497. You say you had just got the glasses on to her. Did you see it through the glasses? - Yes.
7498. How did you see the second one? - With the eye.
7499. With the naked eye? - Yes, without the glasses.
7500. And the third one? - With the eye.
7501. What colour rockets were they? - White ones.
7502. When you got your glasses on the vessel and saw the first rocket going up through them, could you make out the vessel at all? - No, Sir, just her lights.
7503. (The Commissioner.) Still this glare of light? - Yes.
7504. Did that indicate, that glare of light, that this was a passenger steamer? - No, Sir.
7505. (The Solicitor-General.) When you saw the first of these three rockets through your glasses did you report what you saw to the officer? - Yes.
7506. Did he tell you whether he saw the second or the third rocket? - Yes, Sir.
7507. Did he? - Yes, Sir.
7508. He said he did? - Yes.
7509. Was he using glasses, too? - No.
7510. He saw it with his naked eye? - Yes.
7511. What happened after that? - About twenty minutes past one the Second Officer remarked to me that she was slowly steaming away towards the south-west.
7512. Had you remained on the bridge from the time that you saw these three rockets until then? - Yes.
7513. Had you been keeping her under observation? - Yes.
7514. Looking at her with your glasses from time to time? - Yes.
7515. What had you noticed between one o'clock and twenty minutes past one, looking at her through your glasses? - The Second Officer remarked to me, "Look at her now; she looks very queer out of the water; her lights look queer."
7516. You are sure that is what he said - "She looks very queer out of the water"? - Yes.
7517. Did he say what he meant? - I looked at her through the glasses after that, and her lights did not seem to be natural.
7518. (The Commissioner.) What do you mean by that? - When a vessel rolls at sea her lights do not look the same.
7519. But there was no water to cause her to roll, was there; you were not rolling? - No.
7520. There was no sea to cause her to roll? - No, Sir.
7521. (The Solicitor-General.) He made this observation to you. Did you look at her then through your glasses? - Yes.
7522. What did you see? - She seemed as if she had a heavy list to starboard.
7523. She seemed to have a list, and you thought a list to starboard? - Yes.
7524. Looking at her through your glasses, what was there that you could see of her which made you think that? - Do you mean that her masthead light was not immediately over the other lights? - No, Sir.
7525. What was there to show you? - Her lights did not seem to look like as they did do before when I first saw them.
      The Commissioner: What was the difference?

Page 173

7526. (The Solicitor-General.) Could you describe them at all, Gibson? - No, Sir.
7527. You have told us what the officer said to you. Did you think yourself when you looked at her through the glasses that something was wrong? - We had been talking about it together.
7528. (The Commissioner.) I should very much like you to tell me what you had been saying to the officer? - He remarked to me -
7529. I should like you to tell me what were you saying to each other? - He remarked to me that a ship was not going to fire rockets at sea for nothing.
7530. Who said that? - The Second Officer.
7531. A ship is not going to fire rockets at sea for nothing? - Yes.
7532. I daresay you agreed with him? - Yes.
7533. What took place after that between you and him? - We were talking about it all the time, Sir, till five minutes past two, when she disappeared.
7534. (The Solicitor-General.) Till five minutes past two, when she disappeared? - Yes.
7535. (The Commissioner.) Then do I understand from you that the Second Officer came to the conclusion that this was a ship in distress? - No, Sir, not exactly.
7536. What do you mean by "not exactly"? The second officer said to you, "A ship does not fire up rockets for nothing"? - Yes, Sir.
7537. Did not that convey to you that the ship was, in his opinion, in distress? - Not exactly in distress, Sir.
7538. What then? - That everything was not all right with her.
7539. (The Solicitor-General.) In trouble of some sort? - Yes, Sir.
7540. Just think for a minute about this conversation. Do you remember whether the Second Officer and you said anything about ice being dangerous? - No, Sir.
7541. You mean that nothing was said about that? - No.
7542. Your ship had stopped? - Yes.
7543. Because it was not safe. Just think a minute. Was not anything said between the officer and you about it? - No, Sir.
7544. Was anything said between the second officer and you as to whether this was likely to be a passenger steamer? - No.
7545. What did you think? - I thought she was a tramp steamer, and I told him so.
7546. You thought she was a tramp steamer, and you had seen her sidelight at what you thought was between four and seven miles away? - Yes.
7547. And you had seen a blaze of light in the afterpart? - A glare of light.
7548. Four to seven miles away? - Yes.
7549. And you thought she was a tramp steamer? - Yes.
7550. (The Commissioner.) Did you expect to see a glare of light on the afterpart of a tramp steamer? - Yes, Sir, on some of them.
7551. (The Solicitor-General.) That is until she disappeared at five minutes past two that you have spoken about? - Yes.
7552. What were the orders which the Second Officer gave you when she disappeared? - "Call the Captain and tell him that that ship has disappeared in the South-west; that we are heading West-south-west, and that she has fired altogether eight rockets."
7553. Did you report that to the Captain? - Yes.
7554. Where did you go? - Into the chart room.
7555. Was the chart room door shut? - Yes.
7556. Did you open the door and go in? - Yes.
7557. Did you find the Captain there? - Yes.
7558. Did you speak to him? - Yes.
7559. Did you give him the report you were ordered to give him? - Yes.
7560. What did the Captain say? - He asked me were they all white?
7561. The rockets? - Yes, were there any colours in the rockets at all?
7562. What did you tell him? - I told him that they were all white.
7563. Did he give any instructions? - No.
7564. Did he say anything further? - He asked me the time.
7565. What was the time? - Five minutes past two by the wheelhouse clock.
7566. You told him that, did you? - Yes.
7567. Did he ask you anything further? - No.
7568. Or tell you anything further? - No.
7569. And did you go away? - Yes.
7570. (The Commissioner.) Was he awake? - Yes, Sir.
7571. (The Solicitor-General.) Did you return to the bridge? - Yes.
7572. Did you report that you had done what you were told to do? - Yes.
7573. Was there anything further that you noticed until you got close to 4 o'clock? - Yes.
7574. What was it? - About 3. 40 the Second Officer whistled down to the Captain again.
7575. Twenty minutes to four? - Yes.
7576. Did you see him doing it? - Yes.
7577. Did you hear what he said? - No.
7578. Did anything happen after that? - Yes.
7579. What? - I saw three more rockets, Sir.
7580. How much after? - That was about twenty minutes to four.
7581. Just about the same time? - Yes.
7582. These further rockets that you saw, were they before or after the Second Officer had telephoned to the Captain? - After.
7583. Just think for a moment. You are sure about the time, are you? - Not exactly, Sir.
7584. But you have said 3.40 - twenty minutes to four? - Yes.
7585. Are you sure you mean that? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: I thought that the Captain's evidence was that it was about 4.30 when this boy was supposed to have given him that message?
      The Solicitor-General: Oh, no.
      The Commissioner: What time was it? - Oh, yes, I have made a mistake.
      The Attorney-General: At 4.30 the officer came.
      The Commissioner: What time did the boy come in with the message to the Captain?
      The Witness: Five minutes past two.
      The Solicitor-General: And he reports at once the rockets that he had seen.
7586. (The Commissioner.) Now, am I to understand you to say that at twenty minutes to four the same morning you saw three more rockets? - Yes, Sir.
7587. Were they reported to the Captain? - I reported them to the Second Officer.
7588. Did he report them to the Captain? - No.
7589. Why not? - I do not know.
7590. If they were really there, why were not they reported to the Captain? - I do not know, Sir.
7591. Are you quite sure that these three rockets were ever seen by you at all? - Yes, Sir. I saw the first one, and I reported it to the Second Officer, and we looked out for more to see if we could see any more - and we saw two more.
7592. (The Solicitor-General.) You say you saw the first one? - Yes.
7593. Do you mean you saw it with your naked eye? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: Did any of the boats of the "Titanic" fire Roman candles?
7594. (The Solicitor-General.) Yes, my Lord, Roman candles. (To the Witness.) If it was twenty minutes to four it was not very far off the beginning of dawn, was it? - No, dawn was just breaking.
7595. Had it got any lighter? - Yes.
7596. Could you see when you saw this flash at all how far away you thought it was? - It was right on the horizon.
7597. What sort of a light was it? You called it a rocket? Was it a flash; did you see it go up into the sky? - Yes.
7598. What colour was it? - White.
7599. And you called Mr. Stone's attention to it, did you, and then there were two more seen? - Yes.
7600. I understand that is after Mr. Stone had spoken on the tube to the Captain? - Yes.
7601. Do you say he did not report these three further lights to the captain at all? - No.
7602. When you saw these three further lights did you get your glasses on to the place? - Yes.
7603. Could you see any sign of a ship? - No.

Page 174

7604. No sign of a masthead light? - No.
7605. No sign of a sidelight? - No.
7606. Nothing except these flashes? - That is all.
7607. Is that right? - Yes.
7608. Then I think you went off your watch at four o'clock? - A quarter to.

(After a short adjournment.)

7609. (The Solicitor-General.) There is very little more I want to ask him, my Lord. (To the Witness.) I want to be quite sure first of all that I have got accurately the message that you were told to give to the Captain after the ship had disappeared about five minutes past two. Just tell us again exactly, what it was the Second Officer told you to tell the Captain? - To call the Captain and tell him that the ship has disappeared in the S.W., that we were heading W.S.W., and that she has fired altogether eight rockets.
7610. When the ship disappeared she had got a little on to your port bow? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: Will you ask him what he understood by the word "disappeared"?
7611. (The Solicitor-General.) Yes, my Lord. (To the Witness.) You say you were told to report that the ship had disappeared. What. did you understand by "disappeared"? - We could not see anything more of her.
7612. (The Commissioner.) Did it convey to you, and did the man who was speaking to you, in your opinion, intend to convey that the ship had gone down? That is what I understand by disappearing. Did you understand him to mean that? - No, my Lord.
7613. What did you understand him to mean that she had steamed away through the ice? - That she had gone out of sight.
7614. Oh, yes. A ship goes out of sight when she goes down to the bottom. What did you understand by the word "disappeared"? - That is all I could understand about it.
7615. A ship that had been sending up rockets; then you are told to go to the Captain and say, "That ship which has been sending up rockets has disappeared." What did you understand the Second Officer to mean? Did not you understand him to mean that she had gone to the bottom? - No.
7616. Then what did you understand, that she had steamed away through the ice? - [No Answer.]
7617. (The Solicitor-General.) I want to follow out this last message and see what it means. You were to tell the Captain, and you did tell him, that this ship had disappeared to the S.W.? - Yes.
7618. And that your own ship was heading W.S.W.? - Yes.
7619. So that when this ship disappeared she was lying a little on your port bow? - Yes.
7620. You see this piece of paper I am holding up. I call the top the north, here is the west, and here is the south. The S.W. is at this corner. If you were in the middle of the paper she disappeared to your S.W.? - Yes.
7621. And you were heading W.S.W.? - Yes.
7622. Now, shortly before that had this ship which had disappeared been lying on your starboard bow? - Yes.
7623. So that you were more like that (demonstrating.)? - Yes.
7624. And as you swung round so that she passed from being on your starboard bow to being on your port bow, did you continue to see her sidelight or did her sidelight disappear? - Her sidelight disappeared.
7625. That is her red light? - Yes.
7626. And after her red light disappeared could you still see her masthead light or her white light? - Just a glare of it.
7627. Do you mean that it did not shine as brightly as it had been doing? - Yes.
7628. That is what you mean? - Yes.
7629. Did you look at her through the glasses after her sidelight had disappeared? - Yes.
7630. Did you ever see anything which you took for her stern light? - No.
7631. One other thing about the lights. You have told us how you saw her through your glasses and saw the glare of lights in her afterpart? - Yes.
7632. When you saw her first. Now, tell me, when you first saw that glare of lights in the afterpart, could you see a line of lights? - No.
7633. It was more than a single light, was it not? - Yes.
7634. Could not you tell, when you first saw it, whether that glare of lights in her afterpart was running level with the water? - No.
7635. You could not tell. But, at any rate, you could see it through the glasses? - Yes.
7636. Now I wish you would just try and tell us what you mean when you say that later on, when you looked at her through the glasses, you thought she had a list, or you thought her lights looked queer; what was there about her lights to make you think that? - Her sidelights seemed to be higher out of the water.
7637. The sidelights seemed to be higher out of the water? - Yes.
7638. Do you mean that there was any time when you saw both sidelights? - Her red sidelight.
7639. And you say that watching her, you thought that her red sidelight did not stay at the same level, but got higher? - Yes.
7640. That was your impression was it? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: That would make a list to starboard?
7641. (The Solicitor-General.) Is that why you thought she had got a list to starboard? - Yes.
7642. You thought her red light was rising out of the water, and so you assumed that the other side was dropping? - Yes.
7643. Did you call the Second Officer's attention to that? - Yes; he remarked it at the time; he told me to look through the glasses at it.
7644. He told you to look through the glasses at that very thing? - Yes.
7645. (The Commissioner.) When did you first make that statement to anybody - the statement that you have just made that you were told to look through the glasses, to observe this list? When did you first tell anybody of that? - This is the first time.
7646. You never told it till now in the witness-box? - I have spoken to the Second Officer about it since; that is all.
7647. But you have had a statement taken from you, have you not? - Yes.
7648. Did you say anything about it when you made the statement? - I do not think so.
      The Commissioner: I suppose he did not?
      The Solicitor-General: We have asked a good many things, my Lord, which are not to be found in the statements.
      The Commissioner: I could tell quite well, you know, that he had never said it before.
7649. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) Have you a clear recollection of that? - Yes.
7650. Just tell us. You say the Second Officer spoke to you about it; what did he say? - He said, "Have a look at her now, Gibson; she seems to look queer now."
7651. You have not said anything about her port light yet, you know; did he say anything more? - No; I told him, "She looks rather to have a big side out of the water."
7652. Did you tell him what you noticed with the glasses about her port light? - I do not recollect.
7653. Did he speak to you about her port light? - No.
      The Commissioner: I do not understand.
7654. (The Solicitor-General.) Just think it over and tell us as well as you can. You were asked by the second officer to look through the glasses at the ship? - Yes.
7655. And I think you told me that when he asked you to look at her through the glasses he said that she looked queer? - Yes.
7656. Did he tell you why she looked queer? - No.
7657. Just think a minute; do not hurry about it? - No.

Page 175

7658. Had you noticed that she looked queer before he spoke to you about it? - No.
7659. You had not. Then you looked through the glasses? - Yes.
7660. And when you looked through the glasses what was it you saw? What was it that struck you? - That she seemed to be heavily listed to starboard.
7661. You were looking at her port light? - Yes.
7662. What did you see about her port light? - It seemed to be higher out of the water than what it was before.
7663. Did, you tell the Second Officer that you saw that? - I do not recollect it.
7664. Let us see. Had he got some glasses too? - Yes.
7665. Was he looking through his glasses? - I could not say.
7666. You were there, you know. - Yes, but it is dark on the bridge.
7667. Did not you say anything to him about what you noticed, about her red light? - I said she seemed to have a big side out of the water.
7668. Did he agree with you or did he not? - Yes.
7669. He did agree with you? - Yes.
7670. When you looked at this ship's red light and thought that it seemed queer, did you also look at her lights in the afterpart of her? - Yes.
7671. How did they stand in relation to the red light? - They did not seem to be the same as they were before.
7672. They did not seem to be the same as they were before? - No.
7673. You noticed that? - Yes.
7674. Did you mention that to the second officer that you saw that her after lights did not seem the same as they were before? - No; I do not think I said anything at all about it.
7675. Can you help us about it; tell us if you can. What was it about her after-lights, this glare of lights in the afterpart, which made you think they were not the same as before? What was the difference? - That I cannot say.
7676. Were they in the same position as they were before? - They were in the same position, but they seemed to look different.
7677. They merely seemed to look different? - Yes.
7678. Did you think from looking at them that the ship was lying on an even keel? - Not by the white lights alone.
7679. You mean the white lights would not have suggested to you that she was not lying on an even keel? - No.
7680. (The Commissioner.) Am I to understand that, as far as you could tell, the position of the white lights had not changed? - They seemed to have changed, but I cannot say how.
7681. Changed in what sense? How had they changed? - They did not look the same as they did before.
7682. I know; you have said that two or three times, and you have been asked what the difference was, and I should have thought you could have told us what the difference was. What was it? - I cannot say, my Lord.
7683. (The Solicitor-General.) Were they shining as brightly as they were before? - The same glare.
7684. Then it had nothing to do with the brightness of the lights? - No.
7685. But though the lights were of the same brightness, it struck you that they looked different somehow? - Yes.
7686. Cannot you tell us what the difference was? - No.
7687. You have told us about this red light, that you thought it was higher out of the water? - Yes.
7688. Did you look to see whether these after-lights seemed higher up out of the water, or lower in the water? - I noticed them all at the same time.
7689. What, the red light and the others too? - Yes.
7690. And do you mean that the white light seemed higher out of the water as well as the red light? - Yes.
7691. Did the Second Officer say anything to you about the white lights? - No.
7692. Or you say anything to him? - No.
7693. Then I understand the red light disappeared; you did not see that any more? - No.
7694. And the white lights continued to burn for a little time afterwards and then they disappeared; is that right? - Yes.
7695. I do not think you did give evidence in America, did you? - No.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

7696. Did you know when the rockets were being sent up that they were being sent up as danger signals? - No.
7697. What did you think they were sent up for? - I thought they were some private signals.
7698. Who told you they were private signals? - Nobody told me.
7699. Had you ever seen private signals of that kind? - No.
7700. And never heard of private signals of that kind? - I have heard of private rockets, private signal rockets.
7701. When you came on deck, was the Third Officer there? - No, he had gone below.
7702. I understand you could not say whether or not the light was a masthead light or a signal light, until you took the glasses? - Yes.
7703. Did you find that you could see perfectly well with the glasses at that time of night? - Yes.
7704. When you signaled the Morse signals, what did you say to this ship? - I gave her the calling up sign.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

7705. You said you thought this was a tramp steamer? - Yes.
7706. Why did you think so? - She had no appearance at all of a passenger boat.
7707. What time did it first dawn on you that this was a tramp steamer? - As soon as I looked at her.
7708. What time did you look at her first? - About a quarter or twenty past twelve.
7709. Who first attracted your notice to this boat? - I asked the Second Officer were there any steamers around.
7710. What did he say? - He said, "There is one on the starboard beam."
7711. Did he say anything else? - No.
7712. Had you glasses at that time? - No, I did not look at it with the glasses then.
7713. Could you see it then without the glasses? - I could see this white light.
7714. Only this white light? - That is all.
      The Commissioner: All he saw was the lights, nothing else.
7715. (Mr. Harbinson.) Only the white light? - Yes.
7716. Why did you get your glasses? - I saw the light was flickering. I thought she was calling us up.
7717. And then you got your glasses and directed them on the boat? - Not before I called her up.
7718. You called her up first and got no reply? - Yes.
7719. And when you looked through the glasses what could you see beyond the masthead light? - Her red sidelight and a faint glare of light on her after deck.
7720. Did you mention what you had seen to Mr. Stone, the Second Officer? - No.
7721. Did you tell him about this glare of light on the after deck? - No.
7722. Was he looking at this boat through those glasses at the same time? - Not then.
7723. When did he commence? - I went off the bridge at 25 past.

Page 176

7724. And it was while you were away that you say he turned his glasses on the boat? - I do not know.
7725. At any rate, when you came back he told you that she had fired rockets? - Yes.
7726. Did he say anything else beyond the fact that she had fired rockets? - He told me that he reported to the Captain and the Captain had told him to keep calling her up with the Morse light.
7727. Did you again call her up with the Morse light? - Yes.
7728. (The Commissioner.) What was it made you think it was a tramp steamer? You saw nothing but the lights? - Well, I have seen nearly all the large passenger boats out at sea, and there was nothing at all about it to resemble a passenger boat.
7729. What is it you expected to see? - A passenger boat is generally lit up from the water's edge.
7730. This boat was apparently lit up, you know; there was all this glare of light. However, that is all you can say? - Yes.
7731. (Mr. Harbinson.) Did the glare of light that you saw on the afterpart of this boat seem to be a pretty considerable distance from the masthead light? - Yes.
7732. It seemed to be a pretty considerable distance? - Yes.
7733. So that she seemed to be a big steamer? - Well, a medium size steamer.
7734. Could you see how many funnels she had? - No.
      The Commissioner: He could not see that; he could only see the lights.
7735. (Mr. Harbinson.) You used the expression that the Second Officer, Mr. Stone, told you she steamed away? - She slowly steamed away towards the S. W.
7736. Did he use the words "steamed away"? - Yes.
7737. Did he say he saw her? - He said, "She is steaming slowly away towards the S. W."
7738. Steaming away? - Yes.
7739. Towards the S.W.? - Yes.
7740. Did you fix your glasses on her at this time? - Yes, I was signaling her continuously.
7741. Could you see whether she was steaming away? - No. The Second Officer was taking bearings of her all the time.
7742. (The Commissioner.) The message he sent you with was that she disappeared? - Yes.
7743. (Mr. Harbinson.) Not that she steamed away, but disappeared? - Yes.
7744. The Captain made no reply? - He asked me if there were any colours in the lights, or were they all white.
7745. You saw no coloured rockets? - No.
7746. As a matter of fact is not there a code of rockets for use at sea? Do you know as a matter of fact whether there is or is not? - I know now there are only distress rockets used at sea and private signals used near the shore.
7747. And what colour are distress rockets? - White - any colour at all.
7748. Did you say anything to the Second Officer, Mr. Stone, or did he say anything to you, with reference to these rockets that were repeatedly sent up? - Yes.
7749. Did not you think it very curious that so many rockets should be sent up so close to one another? - Yes.
7750. Did you say anything to him about going to see the Captain and saying this seemed to be a serious matter? - No, he told me he had reported it to the Captain and the Captain had told him to keep calling her up.
7751. Did Mr. Stone say this vessel seemed to be in distress? - No; he said there must be something the matter with her.
7752. Did he make any remarks to you as to the Captain taking no action? Did he say anything to you at the time? - No.
7753. Are you sure? - Yes.
7754. (The Commissioner.) Did you say anything to yourself about it? - I only thought the same that he thought.
7755. What was that? - That a ship is not going to fire rockets at sea for nothing, and there must be something the matter with her.
7756. Then you thought it was a case of some kind of distress? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: We are anxious to get the other witnesses from this steamer into the box, and unless you have something really important, I suggest you should finish.
      Mr. Harbinson: I have finished, my Lord.
      Mr. Clement Edwards: I have no question.
      Mr. Lewis: I have no question.

Examined by Mr. LAING.

7757. I should like to ask one question. Did you hear any explosive signal? - No.
7758. Were those rockets which you saw go up explosives? Did you hear any explosion? - I did not hear any report at all.
7759. Any stars? - Yes.
7760. You could see stars? - Yes.
7761. You mean stars from the rockets? - Yes.
7762. Were they stars of any colour or were they white stars? - White stars.
7763. Do you know that a distress signal, the regulation distress signal, is a rocket throwing stars? - Yes.
7764. You knew that? - Yes.
7765. (The Commissioner.) And you knew it then, did you? - Yes.
7766. (Mr. Laing.) And each of those rockets which you saw, which you have described as white rockets, were they throwing stars? - All throwing stars.
7767. You have told us your ship's head was E. N. E. when you first saw this vessel? - Yes.
7768. And you saw her red light on your starboard beam? - Yes.
7769. Did you continue to see her red light? - Yes, it was about 2 points on the starboard bow.
7770. When the officer told you she was going away to the S. W. were you still seeing her red light? - No, it had disappeared then.
7771. Did you ever see her green? - No.
7772. To show you her red light she must have been heading to the northward of N. N. W., on your story? - Yes.
7773. And your head was falling away; which way? - To northward.
7774. To northward and westward? - Northward and eastward.
7775. You were heading E. N. E.? - Yes - to northward and westward.
7776. To the northward it was at any rate, and if you pass to northward you would get to the northward and west? - Yes.
7777. I understand you to say you got to W. S. W.? - Yes.
7778. What was causing that? - We were swinging round.
7779. You told us you never saw the green light of this vessel? - No.
      Mr. Robertson Dunlop: May I ask one question?

Examined by Mr. ROBERTSON DUNLOP.

7780. Was the glare of light which you saw on the afterpart of this vessel forward or aft of the masthead light? - Abaft the masthead light.
7781. So that you would be seeing her starboard side? - No, her port side.
7782. The glare of light which you say was aft, was aft of the masthead lights? - Yes.
7783. Was that to your left or your right as you were looking at her? - To the right.
7784. Do you mean the masthead light was to the right? - No, the masthead light was to the left.
7785. Was that before you saw her apparently steaming to the south-west? - Yes.
7786. Did you see her turn round? - No.

Page 177

7787. Had you a good opportunity of seeing whether she had two masthead lights or not - I understand you only saw one? - I only saw one.
7788. How long had you the one masthead light under observation? - From the time I first saw her to the time she disappeared.
7789. How long would that be? - A quarter-past twelve to five past two.
7790. And during that time were you using glasses? - Yes.
7791. Do you think you could have missed the second masthead light had it been there? - No.
7792. Had you a discussion with the Second Officer as to whether this vessel was a tramp or not? - Yes.
7793. And did he agree with you? - Yes.
7794. (The Commissioner.) Did he give his reason? - That she was probably burning oil lights; that was the cause of the white head mast light flickering.
7795. (Mr. Robertson Dunlop.) How long have you been at sea? - Three and a half years.
7796. And have you seen passenger steamers? - Yes.
7797. Large passenger steamers? - Yes.
7798. And medium-size steamers? - Yes.
7799. Seen them at night? - Yes.
7800. And have you been able to tell the difference between a large liner like the "Titanic" and a tramp? - Yes.
7801. From the appearance of her lights? - Yes.
7802. From the height of her lights? - No, from the quantity.

(The Witness withdrew.)

HERBERT STONE, Sworn.

Examined by Mr. BUTLER ASPINALL.

7803. What certificate do you hold? - A first mate's steamship certificate.
7804. And on the 14th of April this year were you serving on board the "Californian"? - Yes.
7805. What were you? - Second Officer.
7806. And on the night of the 14th of April was it your watch from 12 o'clock onwards? - It was.
7807. From 12 to 4? - Yes.
7808. Did you go on watch at midnight? - Shortly after.
7809. Did you find the ship stopped and surrounded by ice? - Yes.
7810. Was the captain up? - Yes.
7811. Did you speak to him? - Yes.
7812. Did he tell you anything? - Yes.
7813. What did he tell you? - He told me the ship was stopped, surrounded by ice, and he pointed out another steamer.
7814. He pointed out another steamer. What could you see of the other steamer? - One masthead light and a red sidelight and two or three small indistinct lights.
7815. Did he say anything to you when he pointed her out? - He asked me to tell him if the bearing of the steamer altered or if she got any closer to us.
7816. Is that all he said about her? - And that the Third Officer had called her up on the Morse lamp and received no reply.
7817. He told you that? - Yes.
7818. Did you look and see these lights yourself? - Yes.
7819. How far away did you judge they were? - Approximately about five miles.
7820. And how were they bearing from you at this time? - S.S.E. by the standard compass.
7821. Did the captain then leave you? - I went on the bridge and left the captain.
7822. I suppose you relieved the other officer and took charge? - Yes.
7823. Did the third officer make any communication to you about this steamer when you relieved him? - He told me the steamer had stopped about one bell and that he had called her up on the Morse lamp and got no answer.
7824. Did you continue to keep this vessel under observation? - The whole time.
7825. Was there any reason for that? - None whatever except that it was another ship, stopped in ice the same as ourselves.
7826. It interested you? - Yes.
7827. After a time did you make any communication to the captain? - Yes.
7828. How? - By means of the speaking tube.
7829. What did you communicate to him? - I communicated that I had seen white lights in the sky in the direction of this other steamer, which I took to be white rockets.
7830. What time was it you gave him that information? - Just about 1.10.
7831. Had you seen white lights? - Yes.
7832. Now, will you tell me what you had seen? - First of all, I was walking up and down the bridge and I saw one white flash in the sky, immediately above this other steamer. I did not know what it was; I thought it might be a shooting star.
7833. What was the nature of the flash? - A white flash.
7834. You did not know what it was? - No.
7835. How long have you been at sea? - Eight years.
7836. You know distress signals? - I know what they are, yes.
7837. Was it like a distress signal? - It was just a white flash in the sky; it might have been anything.
7838. I know, but what did it suggest to your mind? What did you say to yourself? What did you think it was? - I thought nothing until I brought the ship under observation with the binoculars and saw the others.
7839. Then you took up your glasses, apparently, and looked? - Yes.
7840. And how many more did you see? - I saw four more then.
7841. What were they, rockets? - They had the appearance of white rockets bursting in the sky.
7842. Did they come in quick succession? - At intervals of about three or four minutes.
7843. Now what did you think they were? - White rockets.
7844. What do you think they meant? - I thought that perhaps the ship was in communication with some other ship, or possibly she was signaling to us to tell us she had big icebergs around her.
7845. Possibly, what else? - Possibly she was communicating with some other steamer at a greater distance than ourselves.
7846. (The Commissioner.) What was she communicating? - I do not know.
7847. Is that the way in which steamers communicate with each other? - No, not usually.
      The Commissioner: Then you cannot have thought that. Just attend to the question.
7848. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) You are an officer and hold a certificate and have been to sea for eight years? - Yes.
7849. You had been keeping this vessel under close observation and saw five rockets go up in fairly quick succession. What did you think at the time they meant? You applied your mind to the matter, did you not? - Yes.
7850. Now, what did you think at the time? - I knew they were signals of some sort.
7851. I know; of course - signals of what sort did you think? - I did not know at the time.
7852. (The Commissioner.) Now try to be frank? - I am.
7853. If you try, you will succeed. What did you think these rockets were going up at intervals of three or four minutes for? - I just took them as white rockets, and informed the master and left him to judge.

Page 178

7854. Do you mean to say you did not think for yourself? I thought you told us just now that you did think. - [No Answer.]
7855. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) You know they were not being sent up for fun, were they? - No.
7856. (The Commissioner.) You know, you do not make a good impression upon me at present.
      1. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Did you think that they were distress signals? - No.
7857. Did not that occur to you? - It did not occur to me at the time.
7858. When did it occur to you? Did it occur at some later time to you? - Yes.
7859. When? - After I had heard about the "Titanic" going down.
7860. So throwing your mind back after that information then you thought they were distress signals? - I thought they possibly might have been distress signals.
7861. (The Commissioner.) From the "Titanic"? - No, not necessarily.
7862. After you had heard that the "Titanic" went down, then it occurred to you that those might have been distress signals? - Yes.
7863. From the "Titanic"? - Not necessarily. They may have been from some other steamer. I did not think that vessel was the "Titanic."
7864. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Your vessel had stopped, had she not? - Yes.
7865. That was on account of the danger from ice? - Yes.
7866. Did that fact help you at the time to come to some conclusion as to what these signals meant - danger from ice you know, I suggest, followed by distress signals? - I kept the ship under close observation, and I did not see any reason to suppose they were sent as distress signals from this ship.
7867. You communicated the fact to the Captain? - Yes.
7868. Through the speaking tube? - Yes.
7869. I think you said you left it to him to judge. Did he answer back? - Yes.
7870. What was his answer? - He asked me, "Are they Company's signals?"
7871. What was your answer? - I said, "I do not know, but they appear to me to be white rockets."
7872. Is that all you told him? - Yes; that I had called her up on the Morse lamp.
7873. No, I do not want to break away from what passed between you and the Captain; you told the Captain, you mean? - Yes.
7874. That you had called them up on the Morse lamp? - Yes, and received no answer whatsoever.
7875. When did you call her up on the Morse lamp - after the five rockets were seen? - Previously, and during the time that they were being sent up.
7876. Did that suggest anything to you - a ship showing five rockets, you signaling with your Morse lamp, and getting no answer? Did that suggest anything to you? - No, because I have often signaled ships before, and got no answer from them.
7877. Now, having given this communication to the Master, and having got his reply, did you continue to keep this vessel under observation? - Yes.
7878. Did the Master, when you had this communication through the tube, tell you to go on Morsing this vessel? - Yes.
7879. And did he tell you that you were to send him any news and give him any information that you had got? - When I received any information to send the Apprentice down to him with it.
7880. That is Gibson? - Yes.
7881. Was Gibson on the bridge at this time? - No, he did not see the first of the rockets.
7882. He came later, did he? - Yes.
7883. When he came, did you give Gibson any information? - I told him what I had seen.
7884. What did you say to him? - I told him I had seen those white rockets from the ship and that I had told the Captain about it.
7885. Did you say anything more to Gibson than that? - I told him the instructions I had had from the Master, and he at once went to the Morse lamp and called up the ship again.
7886. Did he get any reply? - None.
7887. Did you speak to Gibson about the meaning of these five rockets? - No, I did not.
7888. (The Commissioner.) Had not you and Gibson a conversation about them as to what they meant? - No.
7889. If Gibson says he had such a conversation, he is wrong? - We had no conversation about rockets then at all. Later on we talked about them.
7890. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) After Gibson had come, and while he was there, did you see more rockets? - Yes.
7891. How many? - Three, in the direction of this steamer.
7892. In quick succession? - About the same period as the others.
7893. The same class of rocket as before? - Yes.
7894. Did anything pass between you and Gibson when those rockets went up? - Not as regards the rockets, no.
7895. Are you sure of that? You see you have got this vessel under observation; she has shown five, you have communicated with the Captain, he has asked you to give him more information and to send Gibson down; there is Gibson, and up go the three rockets: did not you say something to Gibson about the rockets, or Gibson say something to you? - He remarked to me once that he did not think they were being sent up for fun, and I quite agreed with him.
7896. That was my phrase, but at any rate you agreed with him. Now, just tell us a little more in detail what passed between you about this. Did either you suggest to Gibson or did Gibson suggest to you that that ship over there is probably in trouble and wants assistance? - No.
7897. Are you sure? - I made no remark about that at all, about the ship being in distress, the whole time.
7898. Did it never occur to you? - It did not occur to me after what the Captain said.
7899. But what had the Captain told you which would force your mind to the conclusion that that is a vessel which is not in distress? - He emphasised the fact about company's signals.
7900. But you knew they were not company's signals, did you not? - I said I did not think so.
7901. (The Commissioner.) You did not believe they were company's signals? - I had never seen company's signals like them before.
7902. Then what did you think they were? - I did not think what they were intended for; white rockets is what I saw them as.
7903. Wait. You did not think they were company's signals? - No.
7904. You did not think they were being sent up for fun? - No.
7905. What did you think? - I just thought they were white rockets, that is all.
7906. That you know because your eyes told you of it, but what did you think they were being sent up for? - Naturally, the first thought that crossed my mind was that the ship might be in trouble, but subsequent events showed that the ship steamed away from us; there was nothing to confirm that; there was nothing to confirm that the rockets came from that ship, in the direction of that ship. That is all I observed.
7907. You did not think they sprang out of the sea? - No.
7908. Where did you think they came from, if they did not come from that ship? - Possibly from a greater distance past the ship.
7909. You thought they came from some other ship? - Possibly.
7910. Have. you ever said that before to anybody? - I told the Captain so.
7911. That you thought they came from another ship? - Possibly they might have come from another ship.
7912. Did you tell that to the Captain? - Yes, afterwards.
7913. When afterwards? - The next day.
7914. Have you ever said that to anyone before today, that you made that observation to the Captain? - Not that I know of.

Page 179

7915. Then you tell us now for the first time in the witness-box. Has anyone ever suggested that these rockets possibly came from another ship, except you today in the witness-box? - From another ship from the one we had under observation?
7916. Yes. Has anyone ever suggested before you have suggested it today in the witness-box? - Yes, the captain and I had a talk over about it.
7917. Now when did you first say that the Captain and you had made this suggestion? Have you said it before this morning? - No, not that I know of, to anyone official.
7918. Never mind about "official" - to any one at all? - Conversations between myself and the other officers on the ship; we talked about this ship the remainder of the passage.
7919. Did you ever say to any officer that you and the Captain had talked about these rockets and had expressed an opinion that they might have come from some other ship? Have you ever said that to anybody till now? You have said it to me, you know? - Yes.
7920. Have you ever said it before to anybody else? - Yes. I think I have said it both to the Chief Officer and to the Third Officer in conversation.
7921. Tell me what you said to the Chief Officer? - I have remarked at different times that these rockets did not appear to go very high; they were very low lying; they were only about half the height of the steamer's masthead light and I thought rockets would go higher than that.
7922. Well, anything else? - But that I could not understand why if the rockets came from a steamer beyond this one, when the steamer altered her bearing the rockets should also alter their bearings.
7923. That pointed to this, that the rockets did come from this steamer? - It does, although I saw no actual evidence of their being fired from the deck of the steamer except in one case.
7924. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Which is the one case? - One rocket that I saw that appeared to be much brighter than the others.
7925. Was that one of the five or one of the three? - One of the three.
7926. That, you felt confident, came from the vessel that was showing you these navigation lights? - I am sure of it.
7927. That you were sure of? - Yes.
7928. And you had further confirmation in the fact as you have told my Lord, that when the navigation lights altered their bearing, the rockets altered their bearings in a corresponding manner? - Yes.
7929. That would tell you as a sailor that it was almost certain that those rockets were being fired from that steamer which was showing you those navigation lights? - Almost certain, yes.
7930. I suppose, at any rate, now you have not any doubt but that that ship which was showing you the navigation lights was the ship which was showing you these series of rockets? - Except, as I say, that they were very low; they did not appear to go high enough to me.
7931. After you had seen the three rockets was Gibson sent anywhere by you? - He was sent by me previous to that.
7932. Where was he sent? - He was sent down to get ready some gear for streaming a fresh patent log.
7933. I do not think that is material. Did you at any time send down Gibson to make a report to the Captain? - Yes.
7934. When was that? - At two o'clock.
7935. How long after you had seen the three rockets? - I saw the last of the rockets as near as I can say about 1.40.
7936. That would be twenty minutes between seeing the last rocket and the sending of Gibson to the Captain? - Yes.
7937. During that time were you talking this matter over with Gibson? - No. I was watching the steamer by the compass with my binoculars.
7938. Was the steamer altering her bearing to your vessel during that period of time? - Yes, from the time I saw the first rocket.
7939. The first of the eight that you have told us of? - The second - excepting the first flash, which I was not sure about.
7940. You say you saw the steamer altering her bearing with regard to you? - She bore first S.S.E. and she was altering her bearing towards the south towards west.
7941. Under way apparently? - Yes.
7942. During that 20 minutes did you notice anything which you would call funny or odd about her light? - Yes.
7943. What did you notice? - On one occasion I noticed the lights looked rather unnatural, as if some were being shut in and others being opened out; the lights appeared to be changing their position - the deck lights.
7944. Her deck lights? - Yes, and I lost sight of her red sidelight.
      1. That would be consistent with her altering her heading? - Yes.
7945. What was there funny about it? - Merely that some lights were being shut in and others exposed and I remarked to Gibson that the lights looked peculiar, unnatural, but when I took the glasses and brought her under close observation I took it to be due to the fact that very likely she was porting for some iceberg close at hand and was coming back on her course again, showing her other lights, the original lights.
7946. Is this right, that during this 20 minutes Gibson said this to you: "Look at her red light; is not there something funny about it"? Did anything of that sort happen? - Not her red light that I remember.
7947. Gibson has been here, and he told us that he directed your attention to the red light. If you do not remember it, say so? - I do not remember his saying anything about her red sidelight at all.
7948. At the end of those 20 minutes did you then send Gibson to report to the Captain? - Yes.
7949. What report did you tell Gibson to give to the Captain? - I told Gibson to go down to the Master and be sure and wake him up and tell him that altogether we had seen eight of these white lights like white rockets in the direction of this other steamer; that this steamer was disappearing in the S.W., that we had called her up repeatedly on the Morse lamp and received no information whatsoever.
7950. Did Gibson go away? - He went down.
7951. Did Gibson return? - He returned.
7952. When Gibson returned did he tell you what had passed between him and the Captain? - He told me he had woke the Captain up and given him my report; the Captain asked him the time and asked him if he were sure there were no colours in them, red or green.
7953. You mean the rockets? - Gibson assured him they were white rockets.
7954. Is that all? - Then he told me that as he shut the door he heard the Captain say something - what, he was not quite certain about.
7955. Did Gibson then remain on the bridge with you? - Yes.
7956. And after Gibson had returned did you continue to keep this ship under observation? - Until she disappeared, yes.
7957. What did you see of her which disappeared? - A gradual disappearing of all her lights, which would be perfectly natural with a ship steaming away from us.
7958. (The Commissioner.) What do you mean by all her lights? - The deck lights, which were in view. The masthead light would be shut in except for a slight flickering, the glare of it, and the red sidelight would be shut in altogether. The lights I would see would be the lights at the end of the alleyway or engine room skylight, and the stern light.
7959. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Did the stern light that you speak of as disappearing, suddenly become black or gradually fade away as if it was going away? - It gradually faded as if the steamer was steaming away from us.

Page 180

7960. Did it have the appearance of being a light on a ship which had suddenly foundered? - Not by any means.
7961. (The Commissioner.) Can you give me an idea of the speed at which she was steaming away when these lights gradually disappeared? - No, it would be very difficult to express an opinion.
7962. Cannot you express any opinion? - I should say that at different times she was going at different speeds.
7963. Well, what speeds? What was the greatest speed? - I could not say.
7964. She was in a sea covered with ice? - Yes.
7965. You could not make any way; at all events you did not make any way at this time; you were standing stationary?- Yes.
7966. You thought she was steaming away? - Yes.
7967. In the same condition of water that you were lying in? - Yes.
7968. Did you really think so? - I did. The only confirmation I had of it was the bearings of the compass. Two ships remaining stationary could not possibly alter their bearings.
7969. You were swinging round? - We were slowly swinging.
7970. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) When you saw her disappear, did you think something had happened to her? - No, nothing except that she was steaming away.
7971. Did you make any report to the Captain about this disappearance? - When I sent Gibson down at two o'clock I told him she was disappearing in the S.W.
7972. (The Commissioner.) Did you say to Gibson "Tell the Captain she is disappearing," or did you say "Tell the Captain she has disappeared," which did you say? - I could not have said that she had disappeared, because I could still see her stern light. I saw this light for 20 minutes after that.
7973. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) After she had disappeared, did you not make any report to the Captain? - No.
7974. Are you sure? - Not until about 20 minutes after that again.
7975. Well, you did, you see? - I thought you meant at that moment.
7976. I beg your pardon. Twenty minutes later you reported to the Captain. How? - About 2.40 by means of the whistle tube. I blew down again to the Master; he came and answered it, and asked what it was. I told him the ship from the direction of which we had seen the rockets coming had disappeared, bearing S.W. to half W. the last I had seen of the light.
7977. In view of the fact that when you saw her stern light last you thought nothing had happened to her, why did you make this report to the Captain? - Simply because I had had the steamer under observation all the watch, and that I had made reports to the Captain concerning her, and I thought it my duty when the ship went away from us altogether to tell him.
7978. - 7989.   (The Commissioner.) But why could not have you told him in the morning? Why wake up the poor man? - Because it was my duty to do so, and it was his duty to listen to it.

7980. It was of no consequence if the steamer was steaming safely away? - He told me to try and get all the information I could from the steamer. I got none and I thought it my duty to give him all the information I could about the steamer.
7981. Were you anxious about her? - No.
7982. Was he anxious about her? - No, as far as I could judge from his answers and instructions.
7983. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) I want to take you back. You remember those 20 minutes you told me you were talking to Gibson - not all the time, but you and he were from time to time having a conversation about the ship, after the eight rockets, that was between 1.40 and 2 o'clock; it was 20 minutes? - Yes.
7984. Did anything of that sort pass? Did you say something of this sort to Gibson: "A ship is not going to fire rockets at sea for nothing"? - Yes, I may possibly have passed that expression to him.
7985. Well, do you think you did? - Yes, I think I did do so; it is quite possible.
7986. And were you talking about the ship all the time until she disappeared? - No.
7987. Are you sure? - Yes.
7988. Did you say this to Gibson, "Have a look at her now; it looks queer; she looks to have a big side out of the water"? - No, I did not say she had a big side out of the water; he remarked it to me.
7989. He remarked that to you? - Yes.
7990. Did you say, "Have a look at her now; it looks queer"? - That is at the time when I told him the lights appeared to be altering their position with regard to one another. Yes.
7991. Did you think it looked queer? - I merely thought it was a funny change of her lights, that was all. That was before I had looked at her through the binoculars.
7992. In view of the fact that this vessel had been sending up rockets, and in view of the fact that you said it looks queer, did not you think at the time that that ship was in distress? - No.
7993. Are you sure? - I did not think the ship was in distress at the time.
7994. It never occurred to you? - It did not occur to me because if there had been any grounds for supposing the ship would have been in distress the Captain would have expressed it to me.
7995. (The Commissioner.) Never mind about the Captain. You are being asked about what you thought yourself. Do you mean to tell us that neither you nor Gibson expressed an opinion that there was something wrong with that ship? - No, not wrong with the ship, but merely with this changing of her lights.
7996. Well, about this changing of her lights? - That is when I remarked that the lights looked queer. The lights, I said, not the ship.
7997. The lights are what I call part of the ship. The whole thing, lights and all, make up the ship. You want me to believe, do you, that, notwithstanding these rockets, neither you nor Gibson thought there was anything wrong on board that ship; you want me to understand that? - Yes.
7998. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) I went back for a moment, but I want now to take you to the later period, when you spoke to the Captain and told him that the steamer had disappeared? - Yes.
7999. Will you tell me whether the Captain made any reply to that, and, if so, what? - He again asked me if I was certain there were no colours in those lights whatsoever. I again assured him that they were all white, just white rockets.
8000. Can you explain why it was that the captain should again ask you if you were sure there were no colours in the lights? - No.
8001. Have you no idea? You are a sailor? - Yes.
8002. You had been taking part in this matter, so to speak? - Yes.
8003. You were an onlooker paying careful attention, keeping those lights under observation, and then this question again comes from the Master. What did you think he meant by such a question? - I did not know, except that he had the thought in his mind that they may have been company signals of some sort.
8004. But do you really mean that? - That thought may have been in his mind; I did not say it was in his mind.
8005. Was it in yours? - That they were company's signals?
8006. Yes? - No, not that they were. They may possibly have been.
      The Commissioner: Would there be any significance in the lights if they were coloured as distinct from white, Mr. Aspinall?
      Mr. Butler Aspinall: As I understand it, white lights are distress signals; company's lights are very often coloured.
      The Commissioner: Would distress signals be coloured?
      Mr. Butler Aspinall: I have not got the exact wording of the regulation in my mind.

Page 181

The Attorney-General: I do not think there is anything about that in the regulations.
Mr. Laing: I have them here.
The Commissioner: "Rockets or shells throwing stars of any colour or description, fired one at a time at short intervals."
Mr. Laing: Private signals are dealt with by section 733.
The Commissioner: What is a private signal?
Mr. Laing: A company's signal.
The Commissioner: What sort of signal is it?
Mr. Laing: It is a made up signal to show what particular line the ship belongs to.
The Commissioner: But how is the signal different from distress signals?
Mr. Laing: I think they burn different coloured flares or candles, or something of that sort. Sometimes they throw rockets. They throw balls, I know, sometimes - Roman candles.
The Commissioner: But Roman candles do not go up in the air.
Mr. Laing: No, but they throw up balls. It is dealt with by section 733 of the Merchant Shipping Act.

8007. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) After this conversation with the Captain through the tube, did you later see anything more? - Yes.
8008. What did you do? - At about 3.20, just before half-past three, as near as I can approximate, Gibson reported to me he had seen a white light in the sky to the southward of us, just about on the port beam. We were heading about west at the time. I crossed over to the port wing of the bridge and watched its direction with my binoculars. Shortly after, I saw a white light in the sky right dead on the beam.
8009. (The Commissioner.) How far away? - At a very great distance I should judge.
8010. What do you mean by a very great distance? - Such a distance that if it had been much further I should have seen no light at all, merely a faint flash.
8011. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Was it the same character of light as the rockets, or something quite different? - It was so far away that it was impossible to judge.
8012. Did you think it could have come from the steamer you had been looking at before? - No.
8013. It was something different, you think? - Yes, because it was not on the same bearing, unless the steamer had turned round.
      The Commissioner: And were these lights rockets? - I think not.
8014. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Did anything further happen between that time and the end of your watch? - Nothing further.
8015. Your watch ended at 4? - Yes.
8016. At 4 did you see the navigation lights of a steamer? - After 4 o'clock.
8017. When after 4? - Just after 4 o'clock - a few minutes possibly. The Chief Officer relieved me. I gave him a full report of everything I had seen and everything I had reported to the Master, his instructions, when the steamer disappeared, and the way she was bearing - the whole information regarding the watch. He looked over on the port beam, and he remarked to me, "There she is; there is that steamer; she is all right." I looked at the steamer through the glasses, and I remarked to him "That is not the same steamer; she has two masthead lights." I saw a steamer then just abaft the port beam showing two masthead lights apparently heading much in the same direction as ourselves.
8018. Do you know what that steamer was? - No.
8019. That could not have been the steamer you have been telling us about I suppose? - I should say not.
8020. I want you to consider this. You gave a full report, full information to the Chief Officer, and then he looks over the side and he says "There is that steamer; she is all right." According to the story you have told us you know, when you saw this other steamer's stern light disappear you thought she was all right. What was there in your story to the Chief Officer which led him to make this observation: "There is the steamer; she is all right"? - I do not know what led him to make that observation.
8021. Why should he have said it, in view of the evidence you have given us here today you know? Do not you think you told the Chief Officer that you were fearful the steamer you had seen had gone down? - No. I told him the steamer had steamed away from us in a south westerly direction.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

8022. Did you obtain a certificate from the Board of Trade as a mate? - As a first mate in steamships, yes.
8023. Was that certificate given to you after examination? - Yes.
8024. When did you obtain that certificate? - Last December twelvemonth.
8025. Is not part of the subjects of examination the signals of distress and the signals to be made by ships wanting a pilot? - Yes, the articles.
8026. That is one of the subjects in which you are supposed by the Board of Trade to be qualified before you get the certificate? - Yes.
8027. I suppose before you sat for that examination, you read something about signals? - I learned them.
8028. Do you mean to tell his Lordship that you did not know that the throwing up of "rockets or shells, throwing stars of any colour or description, fired one at a time at short intervals," is the proper method for signaling distress at night? - Yes, that is the way it is always done as far as I know.
8029. And you knew that perfectly well on the night of the 14th of April? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: And is not that exactly what was happening?
8030. (Mr. Scanlan.) You have heard my Lord put that question. That was what was happening? - Yes.
8031. (The Commissioner.) The very thing was happening that you knew indicated distress? - If that steamer had stayed on the same bearing after showing these rockets -
8032. No, do not give a long answer of that kind. Is it not the fact that the very thing was happening which you had been taught indicated distress? - Yes.
8033. (Mr. Scanlan.) You knew it meant distress? - I knew that rockets shown at short intervals, one at a time, meant distress signals, yes.
8034. Do not speak generally. On that very night when you saw those rockets being sent up you knew, did you not, that those rockets were signals of distress? - No.
8035. (The Commissioner.) Now do think about what you are saying. You have just told me that what you saw from that steamer was exactly what you had been taught to understand were signals of distress. You told me so? - Yes.
8036. Well is it true? - It is true that similar lights are distress signals, yes.
8037. Then you had seen them from this steamer? - A steamer that is in distress does not steam away from you, my Lord.
8038. You saw these before this steamer steamed away from you? - I saw them at the same time the ship started to alter her bearings.
8039. (Mr. Scanlan.) But for a long time while this ship was stationary like your own, you noticed at frequent intervals that she was sending up rocket after rocket? - No.
8040. I thought that you told my learned friend that you had counted the rockets. Here is what you said. You said you had not your binoculars when the first rocket went up and you did not see the stars. Then you took your binoculars and you saw two other rockets and in each case you saw stars? - Yes.

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8041. Did not those come in fairly quick succession one after another? - Yes.
8042. What do you mean by saying that you did not see them coming in quick succession one after another? - I said that the ship was altering her bearing from the time she showed her first rocket; she commenced altering her bearing by the compass.
8043. Is not this accurate? When you came on to your watch at twelve o'clock this ship was stationary? - Yes.
8044. And except for a change in her position towards 2.40 she was stationary all the time? - No she was not stationary.
8045. Was she moving? - She started to move as soon as I saw the first rocket. She was stationary up to that time. She was stationary by our compass, at least so far as I could tell.
8046. Do you mean to say she was swinging about? - She was not swinging so far as I could tell; she was steaming away.
8047. But have not you said to Mr. Aspinall that you only noticed her steam away towards four o'clock? - Certainly not; I made no such remark, I think.
8048. When did you send word to the Captain that you noticed her steaming away.
8049. (The Commissioner.) It is 2 o'clock? - At 10 minutes past 1. I reported to the Master that she was altering her bearings, which was the same thing.
8050. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Altering her bearings did not mean steaming away? - I do not see how two ships can alter their bearings when stopped.
      The Commissioner: You need not press this any further.
      Mr. Scanlan: No, my Lord.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

8051. Did you notice this ship had a list? - No, I did not.
8052. Are you sure? - Yes.
8053. Did you tell Gibson to look through his glasses, and that the ship had a list? - No; he remarked to me that it looked as if she had a list to starboard.
8054. Did you look? - I looked.
8055. (The Commissioner.) Did you notice it? - I did not. I remarked to him that it was owing very probably to her bearing and her lights were changing possibly. She had no list as far as I could see.

Examined by Mr. LAING.

8056. Did you ever see this vessel's green light? - No.
8057. If she was going away S.W. she must have gone under your stern? - No, she went across our bow.
8058. Were you turned round? - We were slowly swinging.
8059. She could not cross your bow showing you a red light? - Why not?
8060. Well, I do not think so; I may be wrong? - That is the light she would show, her red light.
8061. If you turn round - heading W.S.W. I think you said? - We were heading E.N.E. at the beginning of the watch and slowly turned round to W.S.W. When I lost sight of this steamer we would be heading then about W.S.W. and she would be about 2 points on our port bow. I saw then her stern light, not her red light. She shut in her red light.
8062. You must have seen her green light if it was showing, before she shut in her stern light? - If she shut in her red light. I did not say she shut in her stern light. She did not shut her stern light in at all the whole period.
8063. You are head E.N.E.? - Yes.
8064. She is abeam of you? - She is on our starboard beam.
8065. With her red light open? - Yes.
8066. Then you turned round? - We slowly swung to port the other way, swinging through to southward.
8067. You came round that way? - Yes, and brought her head -
8068. Right round this way? - Yes to W.S.W.
8069. And she goes away to the S.W.? - Yes as near as I could judge. That was approximate.
8070. She must open her green light to you? - No.
8071. (The Commissioner.) Is not that so? - She must have opened her green light to you? - To steam away to the S.W.?
8072. Yes. - No.
8073. Just follow it. Take that red book which perhaps makes it plainer, and put the two little boats on it.
8074. (Mr. Laing.) (Demonstrating with models.) Here is your ship heading E.N.E.? - Yes.
8075. Here is a vessel showing her red light on your starboard beam? - From the appearance of her lights, she was more that way, heading in the same direction as ourselves.
8076. Showing a red light? - Yes.
8077. Now you began to turn round through the southward? - Yes.
8078. Like this? - Yes.
8079. How far did you get? - To W.S.W.
8080. That is about it? - Yes.
8081. Now where does she go to? - To the S.W.
8082. She must, to go to the S.W., go round here?
8083. (The Commissioner.) She went across your bows? - It was merely our swinging that brought her across our bows.
8084. Never mind, she did come across your bows.
      Mr. Laing: She must have done.
8085. (The Commissioner.) How did she do it without showing her green light? - I did not see her green light at all. She ported. She shut in her red sidelight and showed her stern light.
8086. (Mr. Laing.) And came round like that? - I did not see the green light.
8087. (The Commissioner.) She must have shown her green light, you know? - We are heading W.S.W. and the steamer's stern was S.W. ahead of us. All we would see is her stern light. I did not see any sidelight at all after she started to steam away.

Examined by Mr. ROBERTSON DUNLOP.

8088. What kind of steamer did you judge her to be from the appearance of the lights you saw? - A smallish steamer.
8089. Judging from the appearance of the lights, could she possibly have been the "Titanic" in your opinion? - Not by any means.
8090. (The Commissioner.) Have you heard of any other steamer that was in that neighbourhood at that time? - No.
8091. I daresay you have been asking everywhere for this steamer? - There was no one to ask; no one to give us information about it.
8092. Have you been trying to find out? - Only by watching the newspapers.
8093. Have you found it? - No.
8094. You know the "Titanic" was there? - Yes.
8095. (Mr. Robertson Dunlop.) And there was another steamer which you say was there the next morning? - I saw three steamers the next morning.
8096. You said there was a steamer heading the same way as you were. How many funnels or masts had the steamer which you saw the next morning? - I could not see anything about her, except her two masthead lights.

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8097. Had the steamer which you have referred to, whose lights you saw, one masthead light or two? - The first steamer I saw had one masthead light.
8098. - 8099.   If she had had a second masthead light could you have failed to see it? - I think not; I was bound to have seen it.

8100. For how long had you this vessel's stern light under observation? - From just about 1 o'clock to the time I lost her, I should say. The last light I saw must have been her stern light. It may have been the light at the end of an alleyway, or some bright light on deck.
8101. About how long do you think she was showing her stern light? - About an hour.
8102. When you saw she was altering her bearing, was she also altering her distance? - She appeared to be gradually getting further away from us.
8103. And what was the furthest she got away from you before you lost her lights? - I could not say; it would depend upon the height of her lights above the waterline.
8104. Have you any idea how far away she was when you last saw her stern light? - It is a very hard thing to say; I have no idea.

Re-examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL.

8105. (The Solicitor-General.) May I ask one question, my Lord? (To the Witness.) Do you suggest there was any time when you saw nothing but the stern light and the masthead light of this steamer without any other lights from her deck? - No, I suggest no such thing.
8106. You do not suggest that? - No.
      The Commissioner: I thought he did.
8107. (The Solicitor-General.) It is clear now he does not. (To the Witness.) And when you say you saw the light which you call her stern light, you mean you saw a number of lights at the afterend of her and you supposed one was the stern light? - I took the brightest one to be the stern light.
8108. You have been asked questions how far the ship was away. Do you know any means on a dark night at sea by which you can see whether a light is a very powerful light some way off or a less powerful light not so far off? - Yes.
8109. How would you do it? - A powerful light generally throws a glow around it, into the surrounding atmosphere. The more moisture there is in the air the greater the glow you will see around this light.
8110. How much glow was there round these lights? - Very little.

(The Witness withdrew.)

The Commissioner: I do not propose to begin a new witness to-night.
Mr. Robertson Dunlop: May the captain go, my Lord?
The Commissioner: I would rather he did not go to-night. Wait till tomorrow till we have finished with these witnesses.

(Adjourned until tomorrow 10. 30 o'clock.)