Page 125

Wreck Commissioners' Court.

SCOTTISH HALL,

BUCKINGHAM GATE,

Friday 10th May, 1912.

PROCEEDINGS

WIITH

THE RIGHT HON. LORD MERSEY,

Wreck Commissioner of the United Kingdom,

WITH

REAR ADMIRAL THE HON. S. A. GOUGH-CALTHORPE, C.V.O., R.N.,

CAPTAIN A. W. CLARKE,

COMMANDER F. C. A. LYON, R.N.R.,

PROFESSOR J. H. BILES, LL.D., D.Sc.,

MR. E. C. CHASTON, R.N.R.

Acting as Assessors.

ON A FORMAL INVESTIGATION

ORDERED BY THE BOARD OF TRADE INTO THE

LOSS OF THE S. S. "TITANIC."

SIXTH DAY.

THE RIGHT HON. SIR RUFUS ISAACS, K.C., M.P. (Attorney-General), SIR JOHN SIMON, K.C., M.P. (Solicitor-General), MR. BUTLER ASPINAL, K.C., MR. S. A. T. ROWLATT and MR. RAYMOND ASQUITH (instructed by SIR R. ELLIS CUNLIFFE, Solicitor to the Board of Trade) appeared as Counsel on behalf of the Board of Trade.

THE RIGHT HON. SIR ROBERT FINLAY, K.C., M.P., MR. P. LAING, K.C., MR. MAURICE HILL., K.C., and MR. NORMAN RAEBURN (instructed by Messrs. Hill, Dickinson and Co.), appeared as counsel on behalf of the White Star line.

MR. THOMAS SCANLAN, M.P. (instructed by Mr. Smith, Solicitor), appeared as Counsel on behalf of the National Sailors' and Firemen's Union of Great Britain and Ireland and of the personal representatives of several deceased members of the crew and of survivors who were members of the Union. (Admitted On application.)

MR. B0TTERELL (instructed by Messrs. Botterell and Roche) appeared on behalf of the Chamber of Shipping of the United Kingdom. (Admitted on application.)

MR. THOMAS LEWIS appeared on behalf of the British Seafarers' Union. (Admitted on application.)

MR. L. S. HOLMES (of Messrs. Miller, Taylor and Holmes, of Liverpool) appeared on behalf of the Imperial Merchant Service Guild. (Admitted on application.)

MR. COTTER appeared on behalf of the National Union of Stewards. (Admitted on application.)

MR. HAMAR GREENWOOD, M.P. (instructed by Messrs. Pritchard and Sons), watched proceedings on behalf of the Allan Line Steamship Company.

MR. HAMAR GREENWOOD, M.P. (instructed by Messrs. William A. Crump and Son), watched proceedings for the Canadian Pacific Railway Company.

MR. ROCHE (instructed by Messrs. Charles G. Bradshaw and Waterson) appeared on behalf of the Marine Engineers' Association. (Admitted on application.)

MR. A. CLEMENT EDWARDS. M.P., (instructed by Messrs. Helder, Roberts and Co.), appeared as Counsel on behalf of the Dock, Wharf, Riverside, and General Workers Union of Great Britain and Ireland. (Admitted on application.)

MR. W. D. HARBINSON (instructed by Mr. Farrell) appeared on behalf of the third-class passengers. (Admitted on application.)

Page 126

Sir Robert Finlay: With regard to the witness in the box, Hendrickson, I am informed that the surviving officers will arrive at Queenstown this morning and Liverpool tomorrow morning. Under those circumstances I should ask your Lordship's permission to adjourn the cross-examination of this witness until Tuesday, when there will be an opportunity of getting any information which any of them may be able to give with regard to his evidence.

The Commissioner: I think that is reasonable. Will you, Mr. Attorney-General, let your junior prepare for me a list of boats with the crews they had on them and the number of passengers, and, if he can give it to me, the proportion of men to women.

The Attorney-General: Yes.

The Commissioner: I do not think, so far, the evidence has attempted to distinguish between classes - I do not quite see how it could.

The Attorney-General: No. We are attempting to do that, we are doing it ourselves as we proceed. Of course, it is not possible to do it properly until we have called a few more witnesses.

The Commissioner: No, it is not.

The Attorney-General: Then your Lordship shall have it. I quite appreciate that you want it; you want the boats.

The Commissioner: Yes, the numbers of the boats and giving me the effect of the evidence as to how each boat was manned, and what number it carried, and what the proportion of men to women was.

The Attorney-General: Yes, we can give the reference also to the evidence. I do not know whether your Lordship sees this piece of white paper; I understand Mr. Wilding has put it here. (Pointing on the model.) Your Lordship will remember these pieces.

The Commissioner: I have not seen that piece.

The Attorney-General: This is a new piece. This is a piece carrying out what was said by Hendrickson yesterday so as to show the spot at which the water was coming in.

The Commissioner: When he was looking down the spiral staircase?

The Attorney-General: Yes, Mr. Wilding has placed that there, I understand.

Sir Robert Finlay: Yes.

The Attorney-General: It is so much easier to fix it in one's mind.

FRANK HERBERT MORRIS, Sworn.

Examined by Mr. RAYMOND ASQUITH.

5275. Is your name Frank Herbert Morris? - Yes.
5276. And were you first-class bath-room steward on the "Titanic"? - Yes.
5277. At the time of the collision I think you were asleep? - Correct.
5278. Were you wakened by the shock? - No. Were you called by someone? - Yes.
5279. By another steward? - By the saloon steward.
5280. Were you told to get up and dress and go on deck? - Yes.
5281. Did you dress and take your lifebelt? - No, I did not dress right away; I sat on my bunk for a while; then the second steward came in and told us to go on deck.
5282. How long was that after the collision, do you know? - I could not swear to the time.
5283. About how long? - About ten minutes or a quarter of an hour.
5284. Did you go up to the boat deck? - Yes.
5285. Did you meet anyone on the way? - I met the second steward.
5286. Did he give you any orders? - He told us to go below and get bread from the baker's shop.
5287. And did you do that? - I did.
5288. Did you find any bread? - No.
5289. Did you then go up to the boat deck? - Yes.
5290. Did you know your boat station? - I did.
5291. Had you seen a boat list? - I had.
5292. When had you seen the boat list first? - In the first-class pantry.
5293. But when? - On Thursday.
5294. Which was your boat? - Port 16.
5295. That was the aftermost boat on the port side? - Yes.
5296. Did you go to that boat? - I did.
5297. Was there an officer directing operations there? - Well, I could not tell you that.
5298. Was there some one who seemed to be in charge? - Well, I believe there was a sailor or quartermaster; I could not swear who it was.
5299. And were the passengers being put into that boat? - Yes.
5300. Were they put in on the boat deck or was the boat lowered to another deck? - No, put in on the boat deck.
5301. Were any orders given about who was to be put in? - Women and children first.
5302. Did you help to put them in? - I did.
5303. Was the boat lowered then? - I did not stand by 16 all the time.
5304. Did you see No. 16 lowered? - No, it was being lowered away while I was standing by No. 14.
5305. Could you say how full 16 was when you saw it? - It looked pretty full to me, but I could not swear to the number.
5306. Did you see anyone refused who wished to get into boat 16? - The women and children were crying and we had great trouble to get the women into the boats.
5307. You had great trouble in putting them in? - Yes, we had to push them in.
5308. Did any men try to get in? - Not in 16; they did in 14.
5309. Fourteen was the next boat you went to? - Yes.
5310. And in that boat some men tried to get? - Yes, some third-class passengers who were foreigners.
5311. Did they succeed in getting in? - No.
5312. Was there an officer in charge of No. 14? - Well, there was in the last part, when the boat was pretty well full, Officer Lowe came along.
5313. Did you get into boat No. 14? - After I was called.
5314. You were told to do so? - Yes.
5315. Was that by the Fifth Officer, Mr. Lowe? - Yes.
5316. Were any other members of the crew in that boat? - I think there were two firemen, two sailors, and I think there were two more stewards besides myself.
5317. That would make seven members of the crew altogether? - Yes.
5318. (The Commissioner.) Three stewards; did you say, two firemen? - I believe there were two firemen, but I could not swear.
5319. And two sailors? - Yes.
5320. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Do you know the names of any of them? - No.
5321. How many women and children had you. Can you say at all? - Well, I counted 53 when we pulled away from the "Titanic."
5322. You counted 53? - Yes.
5323. Fifty-three women and children apart from the men? - Yes.
5324. Apart from the crew? - Yes.
5325. Were there any men passengers? - Yes.
5326. How many? - I think I counted two, but I could not swear, not to be correct.
5327. Do you know whether they were first, second, or third-class? - One was a second-class passenger.
5328. (The Commissioner.) One of the men? - Yes.
5329. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) You cannot say about the other? - No.

Page 127

5330. Can you say to what class the women belonged? - I think some were third-class passengers, the ladies, Irish women.
5331. You think some of them were Irish women? - Yes, by the way they spoke.
5332. I do not know whether you can say at all, how many you thought were Irish women? - No.
5333. Was the Fifth Officer in the boat himself? - Yes.
5334. What orders did he give you after you were lowered? - He told us to pull away from there, and not to pull too far.
5335. How far away did you pull? - About a quarter of a mile on a rough estimation.
5336. And did you wait there till the "Titanic" sank? - No, when we pulled away from her, Mr. Lowe asked how many were in the boat, and he said we had not enough, and he said we would have to pull back and see who we could pick up.
5337. You are now speaking of the time before the "Titanic" sank, are you? - Yes. As we were rowing round in the vicinity of the "Titanic" we came upon four lifeboats, and Officer Lowe asked who was in charge, if they had an officer, and they said "No"; and he said, "Consider yourself under my charge." Then we put our women and children into their boats, and then he asked if our sail was all right, and we put up the mast of the sail because he said it might be useful in the night. After the boat was down he said we would have to do our best to try and pick up as many as we could.
5338. (The Commissioner.) Did you pick up any passengers from any other lifeboat? - No.
5339. Did you put any of your passengers into any other lifeboat? - We put all our passengers in.
5340. Then did it leave your boat empty? - Yes.
5341. And what did you do then? - We pulled towards the wreckage to see who we could pick up.
5342. That is to say, after the "Titanic" had gone down? - Yes.
5343. And how many did you pick up? - Three.
5344. Did you pick up no more? - No; we only heard those three crying for help.
5345. And when you were picked up by the "Carpathia" were there on your boat only the seven men of the crew and these three persons whom you had picked up? - No, because we had picked up another collapsible boat that was making towards the "Carpathia."
5346. What happened with that boat? - The gunwales had not been properly fixed of this collapsible boat.
5347. Did you take the passengers on the collapsible boat into your boat? - Yes.
5348. How many were there? - I think there were about eighteen; I could not swear to the number at the time.
5349. Now, did you take any more people on board your boat before your boat was picked up by the "Carpathia"? - No, only the three we picked up out of the water.
5350. Did you take any more? - No.
5351. Then you had eighteen that you took from the collapsible boat? - Yes.
5352. And three you had taken out of the water? - Yes.
5353. That was 21? - Yes.
5354. And you had the seven men of the crew? - Yes.
5355. That is 28? - Yes.
5356. When you were picked up by the "Carpathia" that was the number you had on board? - Yes.
5357. How many was your boat constructed to carry? - I suppose the lifeboat is constructed to carry about 60 or 70.
5358. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Apart from these three whom you picked up out of the water, did you see anyone else alive in the water? - No.
5359. Did you row about and look for people? - We were rowing all night.
5360. On the scene of the wreck? - Yes.
5361. With regard to the people whom you took off the collapsible boat, were they women or men, or both? - I think there were some men; we were a little excited to try and save them because they were on the point of sinking, and I never took that much notice who they were, but I think there were women amongst them, but they were nearly all men - three stewards were amongst them.
5362. Were they the only members of the crew in the collapsible boat? - That is all I could recognise at the time.
5363. You think there were some women, but they were mostly men? - Yes.
5364. (The Commissioner.) Now, can you tell me when you arrived on the "Carpathia" how many men and how many women were there in your boat? - I could not tell you; I think there were about six or seven, but I could not swear to it.
5365. Six or seven what? - Women.
5366. Out of the 28? - Yes, I think there were that number, but I could not swear. Out of the 28, as I understand, there were 10 of the crew, perhaps I was wrong.
      Mr. Raymond Asquith: I think there would be 11, counting the Fifth Officer.
5367. The Commissioner: Of the 18 that you took from the other boat, I understand that three were members of the crew? - Yes.
5368. And you already had seven? - Yes.
5369. That was 10? - Yes.
5370. You picked three people from the water? - Yes.
5371. Were they men or women? - Men.
5372. Was any one of those three a member of the crew? - Yes, one.
      The Commissioner: Then you are right, Mr. Asquith, there were eleven.
5373. (Mr. Raymond Asquith - To the Witness.) Are you quite sure that you are right in saying this boat was No. 14? - Yes.
      Mr. Raymond Asquith: I ask that question, my Lord, because another witness named Scarrott, has given evidence who says he was in boat 14, and he describes the boat as having about sixty-four.
      The Solicitor-General: It is the second witness that was called, my Lord.
      Mr. Raymond Asquith: One of them must have made a mistake about the number.
      The Commissioner: It is not so far wrong, Mr. Attorney.
      The Attorney-General: No.
5374. (The Commissioner.) This man says there were fifty-three passengers in his boat, No. 14, and seven that would make sixty; and then for some reason or another they were transferred to another boat. There would be about sixty in this boat No. 14 according to this man. (To the Witness.) I want to know this: Can you tell me what boat it was you transferred your passengers to? - I could not tell you.
5375. Did you transfer them all? - Yes.
5376. They were nearly all women? - We transferred all the women and children.
5377. Why did you do it? - Well, I suppose this was Officer Lowe's idea: if we rowed back to the wreckage and picked up a lot, our boat would not hold them all. That was his idea, to save as many as possible.
5378. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Did you know a man named Scarrott, a seaman? - No.
5379. You cannot say whether he was in your boat or not? - No.
5380. Was there fresh water in your boat? - Yes.
5381. Do you know whether there were any compasses or provisions? - We never attempted to look.
5382. (Mr. Scanlan.) Had your boat a light? - Well, they looked for a lamp, but did not find it; the boat was full at the time when we were looking for it.
5383. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Did you pick up another collapsible boat after? - Yes, full up.
5384. (The Commissioner.) You came up to another collapsible boat full? - Yes.
5385. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) You mean you transferred the people from the second collapsible boat to your boat? - No, we picked up two boats altogether.
5386. (The Commissioner.) By picking them up you mean you came up to them? - Yes, we took one collapsible boat in tow.

Page 128

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

5387. I think the idea of transferring your passengers into the other boat was to give you a free boat to go to the rescue of people who were drowning? - I expect that was Mr. Lowe's idea; I was not in charge.
5388. Is it the case that you could only see three people in the water? - Oh, we saw hundreds in the water, but they were not crying for help; they might have been unconscious, they might have been dead, we could not say to that.
5389. In getting your boat station for No. 16 that meant the arrangements were that in emergency you would go to 16? - Yes.
5390. But you were sent to 14? - No, I was not sent to 14.
5391. The Commissioner: He went to 16.
      1. (Mr. Scanlan.) Yes, my Lord. (To the Witness.) But the boat you went with was 14? - Yes.
5392. The purpose of giving you this station was that you would be one of the crew of No. 16? - Yes.
5393. Can you tell me whether, of the seven who were in No. 14, who rowed away in No. 14 when it was lowered, any single one of them was given as his station this No. 14? - I could not tell you that.
5394. Do not you think, if there had been a muster, that the men would better have been able to go at once to their own stations? - They might have done so; they might have been called upon for other orders.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

5395. Coming up from the saloon that night was there any evidence of confusion on the boat deck? - None at all.
5396. Or in any part of the ship? - There was a little confusion round boat 14 with those foreigners, the men. That is all the confusion I saw.
5397. Were there many women there at the time? - There did not look to be many.
5398. Had many other boats been launched at this time on that side? - I helped to lower 12 away.
5399. You say that a number of your crew, you believe, were Irish? - Not the crew.
5400. I mean your passengers? - Yes.
5401. Those who were in your boat? - Yes.
5402. When did you discover that; was it on the boat deck or afterwards, during the night? - On the boat deck.
5403. Were all the women who were standing round taken into the boat. Did you leave any behind? - Some women got into the other boats, I believe; but I could not say.
5404. But your boat was not full at that time? - I did not count; I do not know what the carrying capacity of the boats is.
5405. Who gave you the order to lower? - Officer Lowe.
5406. How long was it after your boat was lowered until you transferred the women and children to the other boat you have mentioned? - I could not tell you the time.
5407. Was it before the sinking of the "Titanic"? - I believe it was.
5408. You believe it was? - I believe so; I am not going to swear to it though.
5409. You said you pulled about a quarter of a mile away? - Yes.
5410. Were you that distance from the "Titanic" when she sank? - No, we were making towards her when she sank.
5411. Do you suggest that having at this time transferred the women and children from your boat to another boat, it was only possible to pick up three passengers? - Yes.
5412. Did you hear many cries? - No, I did not.
5413. You knew, of course, that there must have been a great number of people left behind on the "Titanic"? - I expect so.
5414. Was it very dark at the time? - Yes.
5415. Did you pull about and look for other passengers? - Yes, I did - we all did.
5416. Did you shout or in any way try to attract the attention of passengers who might be in the water? - No.
5417. You did nothing? - All was silent.
5418. All was silent? - Yes, we just heard a cry here and there for help.
5419. Have you been in this hall while other witnesses have been giving evidence? - I have one or two days, but I have not stopped here.
5420. Did you hear one of the witnesses say yesterday that the cries were agonising? - No.
5421. You did not hear that? - No.
5422. Would that statement, if it were made, have been true? - The cries when she went down were awful.
5423. After the "Titanic" sank, were you not in a position to go close to where she had gone down? - No, we never knew whether there would be any suction or not.
5424. From where you were lying by you could see the position of the "Titanic" and see lights on the "Titanic"? - Yes.
5425. Was it not your duty immediately the "Titanic" sunk to pull to the place where she had been, to try to rescue any passengers that might be in the water? - We did so.
5426. And you say it was only possible under all the circumstances to rescue three? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. COTTER.

5427. How long have you been in the employ of the White Star Line? - I believe about five years.
5428. Were you in any other company before that? - No.
5429. Have you ever taken part in boat drill? - I have.
5430. Or bulkhead drill or fire drill? - Yes.
5431. Can you tell us whether there were any hand bulkhead doors on board the "Titanic," and where were they situated, to your knowledge? - There were some in the working alleyway.
5432. You know where the third-class dining-rooms are? - Yes.
5433. Were there any bulkhead doors, separating those dining-rooms, in the alleyways leading from one section to another? - Yes.
5434. What deck are those bulkhead doors on? - Some on E deck in the working alleyway on the port side, and the starboard side I believe, where the first-class passengers were, and some on F deck.
5435. You know where they are? - Yes.
5436. Where were you when the ship struck? - We were asleep.
5437. In the glory hole? - Yes.
5438. Were you in your bunk? - I was; I was asleep.
5439. Did anybody come and tell you there had been an accident? - The saloon steward came and woke us and said, "She has hit something."
5440. Were there any orders from the Second Steward or the Chief Steward? - From the Second Steward. He came in about 10 minutes after.
5441. That is Mr. Dodd? - Yes.
5442. What did he say? - "All go up on deck and take a lifebelt with you."
5443. Did he suggest you should stand by your boats? - I never heard him give that order. He gave us orders: "All up on the boat deck."
5444. The "Titanic" carries a bugler, I suppose? - Yes.
5445. Did you hear the bugle going at all, giving the call, "all hands to the boats"? - No.
5446. You would understand it if you had heard it? - We would have understood it all right.
5447. There was no call given? - No.
5448. Did you see the Chief Steward? - No.
5449. You did not see the Chief Steward? - No.
5450. Did you see the storekeeper? - Thompson? I saw one storekeeper.

Page 129

5451. Did he say anything about coming down to the storeroom, as something had happened? - I heard him tell some of the fellows to come to the storeroom and get biscuits.
5452. That is the duty of several stewards, providing they know their duties, and have had them told them, to go down to the storeroom to get biscuits to store the boats? - That is on the lifeboat list, I believe.
5453. Did any of them go down there to your knowledge? - Well, I believe there were a lot down there; I could not swear. I met some going down on the way.
5454. When you got on deck what did you see with regard to women and children? - I saw them all standing round the lifeboats.
5455. Many? - I could not swear to the number.
5456. Who was in charge; who did you see in charge, an officer or who? - I never saw any officer; I was not taking as much notice as that.
5457. Was there nobody giving orders at all on the boat deck? - I heard an officer shouting.
5458. What did he shout? - "Get the boats clear."
5459. Who told you to go down to the baker's shop for bread? - The Second Steward.
5460. Where was he when he told you that? - In the companion that leads from the deck up to the top deck.
5461. The man's companion? - Oh, no.
5462. The second cabin companion? - No, a working companion leading from E deck right through the pantries.
5463. It is a kind of crew's companion. When you got to the baker's shop was there anyone there? - When I was getting to the baker's shop I asked a fellow if there was no more bread left, and he said "No," that it had all gone up.
5464. Who was there? - Some stewards; I do not know their names.
5465. Was the chief baker there? - I did not see him.
5466. They had already sent the bread up. Did you join the ship in Belfast? - Yes.
5467. You went over to Belfast for her, so that you would have a thorough knowledge of the ship by the time you got to Southampton. Did you hear any orders given, if orders were given - for the stewards to know exactly how to get up to the boat deck? - Yes.
5468. Did you hear any orders for them to go and get the third-class women out? - No.
5469. Or the second cabin? - No.
5470. You heard no orders at all? - No. Orders might have been given, but I was not there when they were given.
5471. Had you any difficulty in lowering boat 14? - Not at first. When it was half way down the ship's side the tackle got hitched up.
5472. Could you account for that at all? - I think the tackle got twisted.
5473. Through its being new? - That might have been so.
5474. Had you much trouble in getting it into its ordinary shape to get down? - No.
5475. Was the ship listing to starboard when you were lowering that boat? - I think there was a list to port.
5476. A list to port? - I think so.
      The Commissioner: That is the first we have heard of that, I think. Is there evidence that she had a list to port.
      The Attorney-General: Oh, certainly, my Lord. I will call your Lordship's attention to it.
      Mr. Cotter: Before she sank, my Lord; we have evidence that there was a list to port.
      The Attorney-General: There is no doubt there is some already, and there is a good deal more to come.
      The Commissioner: He is talking about the time when he was lowering his boat.
      The Attorney-General: Yes. I am sure there is evidence.
5477. (Mr. Cotter - To the Witness.) How long was it from when she struck till you lowered boat 14. Can you give us some idea? - Well, in my own estimation I should say it was about 1 or a quarter past 1.
5478. That would be thirty-five minutes after she struck? - Yes.
5479. And she had a list to port then. Did your boat catch the ship's side at all going down? - No.
5480. She was clear all the way. Are there any foreigners in the stewards' department of the "Titanic"? - Yes.
5481. Many? - No, one or two, not many.
      The Commissioner: I do not know what the point is; what you asked the question for. What is the point of it?
      Mr. Cotter: I want to point out, my Lord, that there were Italians and Germans in this crew.
      The Commissioner: But what is the point, supposing there were?
      Mr. Cotter: The point is they would not understand orders if they got them.
5482. (The Attorney-General.) If your Lordship will look at page 104, question 4054, you will find one question yesterday put to the Electrician. I will read it: "We climbed up the davit and down the boat falls, and I got into a boat, and Scott dropped into the water." Your Lordship remembers that: "(2) You are speaking of the port side, as I understand? - (A.) Yes, port side. (2) Did you notice at all whether there was any list on the ship at this time? - (A.) There was a slight list to port." There is a good deal of evidence which your Lordship will hear about it.
5483. (Mr. Cotter - To the Witness.) Did you see anything of these men - the restaurant people? - No.
5484. You did not see them? - No.

Examined by Mr. EDWARDS.

5485. You said you rescued certain people from a collapsible boat which was in a sinking condition. Do you know what was the matter with the collapsible boat? - I should think the sides had not been fixed properly.
5486. You do not know of your own knowledge? - No.
5487. Can you give the name of any single one of the persons who was transferred from that collapsible boat to your boat? - Yes.
5488. Will you give the names? - Brown.
5489. What is he? - First-class Steward.
5490. Can you give any other name? - Lucas, First-class Steward.
5491. Anybody else? - And the First-class Barber.
5492. Do you know his name? - Gus Whiteman. [August Weikman.]
5493. Anybody else? - No.

Examined by Mr. LEWIS.

5494. How close were you to the spot where the "Titanic" sank when you picked up the three men? - Well, I could not tell you the exact spot where she went down, but we were pretty well near her, because when we rowed to these three persons there was wreckage all round us.
5495. You could only find three to pick up? - Who were shouting.
5496. You made every possible effort, I take it? - Our officer did the finest action he could have done.
5497. If there had been more you would have picked them up.

Page 130

Examined by Mr. LAING.

5498. You are a First-class Steward? - Yes.
5499. Would you be in a position to hear orders given to the Third-class Stewards? - No.
5500. With regard to the restaurant people, are they a separate gang altogether, a separate body? - Yes.
5501. Under some separate person? - Yes.
5502. Nothing to do with the stewards as stewards? - No.
5503. Were there any foreigners among the stewards - among the First or Second or Third-class Stewards, apart from the restaurant? - Yes, one or two.
5504. What were they? - Saloon Waiters.
5505. Could they talk English? - Oh, yes, very good.
      The Attorney-General: I have no question.

(The Witness withdrew.)

FREDERICK SCOTT, Sworn.

Examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

5506. (The Attorney-General.) Scott is the one who climbed down the davits with Ranger, the Electrician who was called yesterday. (To the Witness.) Were you employed as a Greaser on the "Titanic"? - Yes.
5507. Do you remember the Sunday of the collision, the 14th April? - Yes.
5508. You were on watch, I think? - Yes.
5509. You went on watch at 8 o'clock, did you? - Yes.
5510. In the ordinary course would that be from 8 to 12? - 8 to 12.
5511. Was your duty in the turbine department? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: I see that Ranger spoke to the list to port?
5512. (The Attorney-General.) Yes, that is the one I called your attention to just now. That is the reference I did give. (To the Witness.) That is where the turbine engine is? - Yes.
5513. You were employed in the turbine engine room, starboard side? - Starboard side.
5514. Is that where you were when the collision happened? - Yes, just against the engine room door which parts the turbine room from the engine room.
5516. Oh yes, into the reciprocating engine room? - Yes.
5517. That is forward? - No, the after side of the engine room door, the after side of the main engine room.
5518. (The Commissioner.) The engine room door is forward of the turbine? - Yes, the forward side of the turbine door.
5519. (The Attorney-General.) Yes, forward of the turbine-room is the reciprocating engine room, and aft are the electric engines? - Yes.
5520. We have that from the plan. You were standing by the door. Just tell us before you felt anything at all, did you see anything done? - No.
5521. You felt something; what was it? - I felt a shock and I thought it was something in the main engine room which had gone wrong.
5522. We know it was about 11.40? - Yes, about 20 minutes to 12.
5523. Did you notice the two telegraphs in the engine room? - Yes; four telegraphs rang.
5524. Were there four telegraphs? - She got four telegraphs, two emergency ones.
5525. Two emergency? - Yes, and two for the main engine.
5526. What did you notice? - I noticed "Stop" first.
5527. To which telegraph did that come? - On the main engines.
5528. Let us get this clearly. I understand you are speaking now of the turbine room? - No, there are two stand-bys; you can see just the same in the turbine room; if you are standing at the engine room door you can see the two just the same.
5529. Where did you see those? - In the main engine room.
5530. That is where the reciprocating engines are? - Yes.
5531. The water-tight door is open? - Yes.
5532. And you can see through? - Yes.
5533. Now I think we follow. When you speak of the four telegraphs, are they all there? - Yes.
5534. Or are there any in your room? - No, there are none in the turbine room at all, Sir, all in the main engine room.
5535. Was the telegraph signal that came the emergency or the ordinary telegraph? - That is to the main engine room. It is different. They ring the two on the main engine room, and then they ring two others just afterwards, the emergency ones.
5536. Did you hear the two? - All four went.
5537. Did you hear the two ordinary ones ring first? - No, they all four rang together.
5538. What did they ring? - "Stop."
5539. Was that before or after the shock? - After the shock.
5540. What was the next thing? - Then the watertight doors went.
5541. Was any reply given to the telegraph orders from the bridge? - Yes, they rang back from the engine room; the two greasers at the bottom rang back.
5542. It would be their duty, I suppose, to ring back? - Yes.
5543. Did you see them do that? - Yes.
5544. After they got the order to stop? - Yes, they were feeding the engines, and were close handy at the time.
5545. They happened to be there? - Yes.
5546. Then the next thing that happened was something with reference to the watertight doors? - Yes, the watertight doors all closed.
5547. Did you hear any bell ring first? - No, not for the watertight doors.
5548. Do you mean that without any signal they came down? - Yes.
5549. Which watertight doors are you speaking of? - All of them.
5550. When you say "all of them," how many do you mean? - I think it is about six, leading down to the afterend of the tunnel.
5551. Do you mean not only in your engine room, but you are speaking also of what you could see aft; the other watertight doors had been open? - We had to go and open them up afterwards.
5552. I understand now what you mean. You are standing in the turbine engine room and there you have got water-tight doors fore and aft which were open, and aft you could see the other watertight doors were open? - Yes.
5553. Then, if I follow you correctly, what happened was, all those doors closed down at the same time? - Yes.
5554. What did you do after that? - After that we went up to the turbine room and down one of the escapes to let one of the greasers out in the after tunnel.
5555. That is into the electric room? - No, there is another tunnel after that one.
5556. Do you mean the aftermost one? - Yes, the aftermost one of the lot.
5557. That is the very last on the tank top, your Lordship will see. (To the Witness.) You went there? - Yes, and heaved the door up about two feet to let the greaser out.

Page 131

5558. Who was the greaser there? - He was tunnel greaser, the one who looks after the tunnel.
5559. You had to release him? - We had to go and heave the door up.
5560. How many did it take to heave the door up? - Two of us.
5561. That you did by winding it up, I suppose? - Yes.
5562. Did you have to give any signal before that? - No.
5563. Did you get any order? - No.
5564. Did you do it by yourselves? - Yes, me and my mate on the other side of the engine room.
5565. Did you hear any signal given to the bridge? - From the engine room?
5566. Yes? - Yes.
5567. What? - When they rang the stand-by. Is that what you mean?
5568. Yes? - That is all I heard, and then they rang down, "Slow ahead!"
5569. Wait a bit. I will ask you about that in one second. Did you hear any message given by the Chief Engineer to release the watertight doors? - No.
5570. To release the clutch? - No. After we got the greaser out we came back to the turbine-room again, and the Engineer in the turbine-room told us to heave up all the watertight doors. That was after we came back from letting the greaser out of the tunnel.
5571. That would mean somebody must have telegraphed to the bridge? - Yes, somebody must have done.
5572. In order to release the clutches so that you could heave them up? - Yes.
5573. Then you had to go right to the afterpart of the ship there, had you, into the tunnel? - We went down the escape ladder.
5574. That was for the purpose of getting there in order to open up that watertight door which is the last, the aftermost watertight door? - Yes.
5575. That is the one which you did proceed then to heave up? - Yes.
5576. And then you released your mate who was there at work? - Yes.
5577. Then when you released him what did you do? - We had to go up the escape again, and we went down the turbine.
5578. You went up the escape then and got back again into the turbine engine room? - Yes.
5579. Did you leave the watertight door open? - Yes.
5580. And so far as you know, was it ever closed? - No, because they were all opened afterwards. We heaved them all up again. We went back and heaved up the one which we opened about two feet, we heaved it right up.
5581. Now let us follow it. The first time you go there to release your mate you heaved it up two feet? - Yes.
5582. That released him? - Yes.
5583. Then you went back to the turbine engine room? - Yes.
5584. Then when you got there did you get further orders about the watertight doors? - Yes, the engineer of the watch in the engine room.
5585. What did he tell you to do? - He told us to heave all the watertight doors up.
5586. Did you go right aft again to the aftermost tunnel? - Yes, we went right through. We opened one up in the afterside of the turbine room, and then went right through them till we got to the after one, which we had opened up about two feet.
5587. Now, let us see if I follow. In order to get to the aftermost tunnel you would again have to go up the escape? - If we had not opened the doors we would have to go up the escape; but as we went through we opened them up.
5588. I thought you went up the escape and then opened them coming forward? - No.
5589. Did you open them going aft? - You are bound to, because the handle is this side of the door.
5590. The handle is this side of the door? - Yes; and then we passed through and opened up another.
5591. You would pass first of all from the turbine engine room? - Into the electric engine room.
5592. And you go into the electric engine room. When you say you opened them, how much did you open them? - Right up.
5593. Can you give us an idea how much that is? - Just over 6 feet, I think. I could walk through them easy without bending down.
5594. Then from the electric engine room at the afterpart you again opened in the same way? - To get into the tunnel.
5595. Then from the tunnel you come to the last water-tight door? - Yes.
5596. That again, you have to open from the afterend? - Yes.
5597. You open them and then you come to the place where your mate had originally been? - Yes, that is the after one of the lot.
5598. After having done that, you walk through again? - Yes, we go back into the main engine room then.
5599. And you left all those doors open? - All those doors open.
      The Commissioner: Then all the watertight doors aft of the main engine room were opened?
5600. (The Attorney-General.) Yes. (To the Witness.) And, so far as you know, as I understand it, they never were closed? - No. Why they opened them was they had to go down the last tunnel but one and get a big suction-pipe out, which they used for drawing the water up out of the bilges.
5601. That tunnel is the one before you get to the last water-tight door where they went to get a big suction pipe? - Yes, it takes four men to carry it. I think I saw four men coming through with it. They took it to the stokehold. What they did with it I do not know.
      The Commissioner: Will you get what time this was?
5602. (The Attorney-General - To the Witness.) What time was it? - About a quarter to one.
5603. (The Commissioner.) That is about an hour after the collision? - Yes.
5604. (The Attorney-General.) When you came back to the main engine room did you see whether the water-tight doors forward of the main engine room were open? - They must have been, because they could not take a suction pipe out to the stokehold if they were not.
5605. So that the suction pipe which they wanted, was taken right forward? - Taken into the stokehold. What they did with it I do not know.
5606. I only want to know whether you can remember. You say they must have been. Did you notice any of the water-tight doors forward of the main engine room open? - No, I never noticed them because I could not see them open. The men in the main engine room had to open them.
      The Attorney-General: We have evidence that some of them were up to No. 5.
      The Commissioner: Up to the division between 4 and 5.
      The Attorney-General: Yes, that is right.
      The Commissioner: If this evidence is right, there were no watertight bulkheads at all serving after a quarter to one from the bulkhead between four and five right away aft.
      The Attorney-General: That is right, my Lord; that is as I understand the evidence.
      Mr. Laing: May I interpose here and say that these watertight doors are fitted with a float so that if any material quantity of water comes the float automatically releases the door and it comes down again by itself.
      The Commissioner: That is something I do not at present quite understand. You mean to say that there is some provision by which these doors work again automatically?
      Mr. Laing: Yes.
      The Commissioner: If water comes in to any extent?
      Mr. Laing: Yes.
      The Commissioner: We have not heard of that.
      Mr. Laing: I only thought it right to tell your Lordship, having regard to what has been said about it.
      The Attorney-General: We shall go into that a little later, and see how it would work.
      The Commissioner: I was only saying, as far as I could gather at present, there were no operative watertight bulkheads from the bulkhead between four and five, right away aft after a quarter to one.
      The Attorney-General: I think that is right, my Lord. It is subject to this, that there was this automatic release which we shall have to hear something more about and discuss whether it was effective or not, and what happened when we get further evidence. But, so far as we know (and I rather gather it seems to agree with my friend Mr. Laing's evidence), there was no order. I am not asking for an admission which is to operate against my friend; I mean, so far as we know at present, there is no question after that of closing the watertight doors?
      Mr. Laing: Nothing that I know of.

Page 132

5607. (The Attorney-General.) We do not know anything either. It may be there may be some evidence later; we shall hear. (To the Witness.) Will you go back a little to something you just mentioned before, that I want you to tell the Court a little more about; that is, orders that you heard in the main engine room. Do you remember? You were standing in the turbine engine room close to the door? - Yes.
5608. And you told us you heard what was going on in the main engine room? - The telegraph?
5609. Yes, I want you to tell my Lord what it was? - They rang down "Stop," and two greasers on the bottom rang the telegraph back to answer it. Then they rang down "Slow ahead." For ten minutes she was going ahead. Then they rang down "Stop," and she went astern for five minutes.
5610. (The Commissioner.) The orders were "Stop," "Slow ahead," and then "Astern"? - No, it was "Stop," and then "Astern." She went astern for five minutes. Then they rang down "Stop."
5611. "Stop," "Slow ahead" - 10 minutes, you say? - Yes, about 10 minutes.
5612. Then "Stop" again? - Yes, "Stop"; then she went astern for about five minutes.
5613. (The Attorney-General.) Did you hear the order about "Astern"? - Well, it was on the telegraph.
5614. What was the order? - "Go astern" - "Slow astern." Then they rang down "Stop," and I do not think the telegraph went after that.
5615. A telegram came "Stop"? - Yes, and I do not think the telegraphs went after that.
5616. (The Attorney-General.) The first order you heard was "Stop"? - Yes.
5617. Did the engines stop before the order came "Slow ahead"? - Oh, yes.
5618. They did stop? - Yes.
5619. Then when the engines had stopped the order came "Slow ahead"? - Yes.
5620. Can you tell us at all what time passed between the order "Stop" and "Slow ahead"? - I should say about 10 minutes or a quarter of an hour.
5621. "Stop," of course, comes at once? - It comes at once. They cannot stop the engines at once.
5622. That is what I want. They cannot stop them at once? - No; they are bound to let the steam get out of the cylinder first, otherwise they would blow the cylinder covers off if they tried to stop them at once.
5623. You would not know how long it would take to stop the engines? - No, I do not.
5624. I think you said ten minutes to a quarter of an hour "stop," then ten minutes "slow ahead" and then again "stop"? - Yes.
5625. Then how long between "stop" and "slow astern"? - I suppose that was a matter of about four or five minutes.
5626. That is between "stop" and "slow astern." And how long between "slow astern" and "stop" for the last time? - Five minutes.
5627. Did you hear those orders given before you went to the aftermost tunnel? - Yes.
5628. So that all this which you have told us happens before you go to release your mate? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: I make out this would take about half an hour?
5629. (The Attorney-General.) Yes, that is what I make it. (To the Witness.) Was there a clock there? - Yes, the engineer had a clock. There is not one in the turbine-room; but he had one of his own for taking the count of the turbine engines, the revolutions that the engine is turning.
      The Commissioner: Will you look at Dillon's evidence on this point at Question 3718?
      The Attorney-General: Yes.
      The Commissioner: And 3720?
      The Attorney-General: I have it in mind, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: I am told by one of my colleagues that it is directly in the teeth of this evidence.
      The Attorney-General: I am afraid that is likely to happen more than once in the case.
      The Commissioner: No doubt; we shall not get the same story from everyone.
      The Attorney-General: Of course this man is down in the engine room and he is telling us. I am going to see further whether we can exhaust the time. He is telling us by the clock. Of course we shall have to contrast it. He is a trimmer who was on duty in the engine room, and this man's business, so far as I understand, was always in the turbine department.
      The Witness: Yes.
5630. After you had heard all these orders can you tell me how long it was before you went aft to the aftermost tunnel to release your mate? - Well, I should say it was just over the half-hour I should think.
5631. You mean just over half an hour from when? - From the time the doors were lowered and we went and let him out.
5632. If that is right it would be very soon after you heard the last order given? - To stop?
5633. Yes. - No, it was about a quarter of an hour or twenty minutes after that.
5634. I want to see if we can exhaust the time. A quarter of an hour or twenty minutes after you heard the last order "Stop," you went to release your mate? - Yes.
5635. Then you came back at once? - Yes.
5636. How long do you think all that took, to release your mate and back again into the engine room? - About ten minutes.
5637. Then you got the order to open the watertight doors? - Yes.
5638. That, I think you said, was about a quarter to one? - Yes, about a quarter to one.
5639. (The Attorney-General.) That is right. I mean the time he gives at any rate tallies with that. It would then bring it up to about 12.40 or 12.45 and that is right. That is why I was trying to exhaust it to see what happened. (To the Witness.) When you came back into the engine room, did you wait for orders? - Yes, I went back into the main engine room then.
5640. And did you get an order to go up on deck? - Yes, the engineer came down and told everybody to go out of the engine room.
5641. Which one was it? - I could not say.
5642. But one of the officers? - Yes. I think it was one of the senior engineers.
5643. Was there any water to be seen? - No, it was as dry as we are here.
5644. That was so at all times; there was never any water there? - No water at all in either engine room.
5645. Then did you go on deck? - Yes, up the working alleyway.
5646. And then did you get orders? - Some of the firemen came down and told us we had to get some lifebelts.
5647. What did you do then? - We got them at the Third-class; from there we went up on the boat deck. There were two boats left then on the port side; lowered down to the ship's side they were then.
5648. Were there any on the starboard side? - No.
5649. Let us see if we can get this quite clearly. Did you look over the starboard side? - Yes, we went to the starboard side first.
5650. And you looked over the side? - Yes, the highest side of her where she had a list.

Page 133

5651. The highest side? - Yes, the port side was where she had listed over, and we went to the starboard side.
5652. It was the port side that had listed over? - Yes. We went up the starboard ladder and came this side of her. We looked, and there was no boat. We went to the port side, and there were no boats then lowered to the ship's side.
5653. Was it an appreciable list? Did you notice as you were walking? - I never took that much notice. I know she had a list that side.
5654. And you remember looking over the side? - Yes.
5655. Then you went back to the port side? - We went to the port side then.
5656. Then you looked over that? - Yes.
5657. Tell us what you saw? - I saw two boats then, and one of the boats was where the officer pulled a revolver out and shot it between the ship and the boat and said, "If any man jumps into the boat I will shoot him like a dog."
5658. That is Mr. Lowe, according to the evidence. Do you remember where these boats were? Were they forward or aft? - Aft.
5659. Aft on the port side? - Aft on the port side.
5660. There are four aft on the port side. Do you remember which of them you saw? - I know it was the two after-boats on the port side.
5661. That is 14 and 16 on the port side? - I do not know the number.
5662. That is right. They were the last. When you looked over the starboard side you were in the afterend? - In the afterend.
5663. Could you see at all whether there were any boats forward on the starboard side? - No. I saw a lot of lights a tidy distance away from the ship, and the chaps thought it was a ship overhauling us and somebody said they thought it was a lifeboat, and the others said they could not have got out so far; but we happened to find out it was a lifeboat.
5664. When you did look over the starboard side there were no boats either forward or aft? - No, not alongside the ship.
5665. So that all the boats either forward or aft had gone from the starboard side? - Yes. The only two left were on the port side, the afterend of the ship.
5666. (The Commissioner.) And they were the only two lifeboats left? - Round the ship, yes.
5667. (The Attorney-General.) Either lifeboats or emergency boats? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: And they were 14 and 16.
5668. (The Attorney-General.) That is right? - They were full up with women. There were only two men in one boat and that was the one I got into. They pulled back for two more men, and we got in from the ship's side.
5669. (The Attorney-General.) He is right; that is boat 14; they took off two men? - Yes; we got up on the davits and went down the falls. I got halfway down and went into the water. Ranger happened to get into the boat without getting wet. I was in the water, I suppose, about four or five minutes and they pulled me in.
5670. You were pulled in and taken into the same boat that Ranger was in? - Yes.
5671. There were only two men? - Yes.
5672. All the rest were women? - Yes; it was filled up with women.
5673. Any children? - Yes, one or two, but I cannot say how many, and I cannot say how many were in the boat, but I know she was full up. We pulled away from the ship's side and we had not been away long before the ship started breaking up, and her stern went up in the air, and you could see her three propellers nearly the same as you can see them on the model.
5674. You got away? - Yes; we had just got at the stern of her when she started breaking up.
5675. You say she started breaking up? - Yes; she broke off at the after-funnel, and when she broke off her stern end came up in the air and came down on a level keel and disappeared.
5676. It went up in the air and came back on a level keel? - Yes.
5677. Then did she go up again before she disappeared? - No.
5678. Simply sank? - She simply sank.
5679. (The Commissioner.) Where did she break? - The after-funnel.
5680. (The Attorney-General.) Do you mean between the third and fourth funnels? - No, the after-funnel. From the after-funnel to the stern of her.
5681. Do you mean the break was aft of her last funnel? - Yes, just aft of the last funnel.
5682. (The Commissioner.) Aft of the ventilating funnel? - Yes, that is right.
      The Commissioner: Does this agree with the other evidence?
      The Attorney-General: No.
      The Commissioner: I thought the other witness made it more forward.
      The Attorney-General: Yes, between the forward and the second funnels; and one of the witnesses said she came back and righted on her keel and then up-ended again, with her stern in the air, and then plunged into the water. There is, not unnaturally, some discrepancy about it. There is some evidence from one of the witnesses, who said the last funnel seemed to come towards him, then to go aft. Your Lordship will remember that.
      The Commissioner: Yes.
5683. (The Attorney-General.) That will correspond, at any rate. It is the best description a man can give of what he saw on a dark night. (To the Witness.) You were behind her stern? - Yes.
5684. You could not see how far forward she parted? - No.
5685. When you were looking over the starboard side was there anybody near you? - Yes, all the engineers and firemen and all that.
5686. All the engineers? - Yes.
5687. Do you mean the officers? - Yes; the engineers that were on watch.
5688. Then, if I understand it aright, all the engineers had come up too? - They were all at the top.
5689. Did they come up when you came up? - Just afterwards, but some of them went up on the boat deck with me. They came up the ladder just behind me.
5690. When you say they were standing there, where were they standing? - Just against the electric crane aft.
5691. Will you indicate to us on the model where that is? - Yes, just about here (pointing on the model.)
5692. On the boat deck? - On the boat deck.
5693. That is the last you saw of them? - That is the last I saw of them.
5694. When the boat came to the port side we have heard either from you or from Ranger they shouted out from there they wanted two more men? - Yes.
5695. Were you and Ranger the only ones who ran to the port side? - Well, I do not know whether Ranger came over at the same time as me or not, but there were some stood on the port side then. There were a lot of firemen there, but they did not think about getting up on the davits to get out on to the falls.
5696. That had to be done? - Yes, we had difficulty to get out there with lifebelts on, because they are only about that wide (demonstrating.)
5697. You and he were the first to get out on to the davits and get down by the falls into the boat? - Yes.
5698. And so got away? - Yes.
      The Attorney-General: I do not propose to go through the story again of the boat, because we have heard from two or three witnesses what happened in boat No. 14.

Page 134

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

5699. At the time of your leaving, going down from the davits, were there any passengers on the deck? - I could not say.
5700. You said that when you went for the lifebelts, you went to the steerage quarters? - Yes, we were ordered to go there.
5701. I suppose at that time you could not get to your own quarters? - Certainly not, we could not go there to get our clothes, let alone the lifebelts.
5702. There were lifebelts in your own quarters, I take it? - Yes.
5703. You were one of the last of the crew to leave the ship. Do you know where the collapsible lifeboats were kept on the deck? - No, I was never on the boat deck before - not till I went up and got on the boat.
5704. We have heard of two collapsible lifeboats of the four that were on the deck being lowered? - I never saw them.
5705. You never heard anything of the other two? - No.

Examined by Mr. ROCHE.

5706. I want you to tell me with regard to the engineers you saw on the deck, when did they come up? - They came up just after I did.
5707. How long was that? - It was 20 minutes past 1 when I left the engine room.
5708. How long before you climbed down the falls to the boat? - I should say about half an hour.
5709. Were all the boats launched then? - No; all barring two.
5710. Which of the engineers did you see? Can you tell me their names? - Mr. Farquharson. I do not know the names of the others.
5711. How many of them did you see? - I should say there were about eight of them.
5712. There are 20 or more in the ship? - Yes.
5713. You think you saw eight, of whom you can remember the name of one? - Yes.
5714. Were the pumps running at this time still? - Certain pumps were.
5715. What do you mean by certain pumps, most of the pumps, of the ship? - Circulating pumps.
5716. Where did the circulating pumps get their steam from? - That I cannot tell you.
5717. You do not know whether they got it from the main boilers or not? - No.
5718. You went from the turbine room back into the aftermost compartment in the tunnel? - Yes.
5719. You had to get through two watertight doors to get there? - Yes.
5720. Were they both open when you went? - Not when we went first, not when we released the greaser in the after-tunnel; they were closed.
5721. How did he get out? - We went up the turbine-engine room way along the working alleyway and down an escape.
5722. I follow. Did anyone send you to fetch him? - No.
5723. Did you get before you went up to the deck any summons to go on deck, or did you go on your own account? - No, we were ordered up out of the engine room.
5724. Who by? - The Senior Engineer, I think it was.
5725. Who was in charge of your section, the turbine room? - One of the juniors I think it was, about the sixth.
5726. What is his name; do you know? - No.
5727. Do you know the name of the engineer who ordered you out? - I think it was Mr. Farquharson.
5728. The gentleman you did see on deck afterwards? - Yes.
5729. And were the other engineers you saw on deck those belonging to your section, the turbine room? - They were doing six-hour watches then; some had come on at 8 to 2.
5730. But were the gentlemen that you saw, the engineers whom you saw, the engineers you had been connected with in the turbine room? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

5731. You said you could not get to your quarters to get your lifebelts? - No.
5732. Who told you to go to the third-class quarters? - One of the firemen I think told us to go along and get our lifebelts that way.
5733. To go and get lifebelts in the third-class quarters? - Yes.
5734. Now this was, I understand, about an hour after the collision? - This was 20 minutes past 1.
5735. When you were going to the third-class quarters did you see many of the third-class passengers about? - No.
5736. What section of the third-class quarters did you find those lifebelts in? - I cannot exactly point it out to you, but it was where some of the third-class sleep.
5737. In the sleeping quarters of the third-class passengers? - Yes.
5738. Had you ever been there before? - No.
5739. Who told you to go there? - One of the firemen.
5740. But who told you to go to this particular place? - The Chief Steward of the third-class.
5741. What is his name? - I could not tell you.
5742. Did you ever see him before? - Yes.
5743. He told you where to find those lifebelts? - Yes.
5744. These lifebelts were, I suppose, intended for use by the third-class passengers? - I do not know. I do not know whether they were spare ones or what they were.
5745. You know nothing further than you went and got them? - No.
5746. Were there many there? - Yes.
5747. You say you did not see any of the third-class passengers about? - No.
5748. How many men went along with you? - I should say about 30 or 40.
5749. Thirty or 40 went and got those belts? - Yes.
5750. You saw no one at all? - No; no passengers.
5751. Did you look for any? - No.
5752. You did not look for any? - No.
5753. How did you get from the position you were into the third-class quarters? Was it through the tunnel or up the ladder or how? What means of access was there? - Our engine room door leads up into the alleyway where the third-class is.
5754. The alleyway leads direct to the third-class sleeping compartments? - Yes.
5755. Where were those lifebelts kept? - Aft.
5756. But in a compartment by themselves? - Yes, up a little alleyway. There are seven alleyways there; I could not point out to you which one it was.
5757. Did you look into any of the third-class compartments to see if there were any of the passengers there? - No.
5758. Did you see any stewards about? - Yes, some stewards were getting belts there.
5759. They were looking after themselves also? - Yes.
5760. And taking these third-class lifebelts? - Yes.
5761. Was not it rather curious that you saw no third-class passengers at all? - No, I never saw one. There might have been some there if I had looked round, but I was not looking.
5762. You were not looking for passengers? - No.
5763. Did you see any women about? - No.
5764. Or any children? - No.
5765. How did you get from the third-class sleeping apartments to the boat deck? - I went to the third-class compartments and up the staircase.
5766. Was that the most direct way? - Yes.
5767. Had you any difficulty in getting up? - No.
5768. None at all? - No.

Page 135

5769. Did all the other members of the crew follow you? - Yes.
5770. The 40 firemen? - Yes.
5771. You all went in a bunch and got these lifebelts? - Yes.
5772. And you all went up in a bunch? - No, we had to get them one at a time.
5773. But you followed each other afterwards? - Yes.
5774. How long were you occupied in getting these lifebelts? - Not long.
5775. It is at any rate an appreciable distance from the sleeping apartments of the third-class passengers to the deck, is it not? - I should say we would get up in five minutes in a case like that.
5776. Did you see any third-class passengers on your way from the sleeping apartments up to the deck? - No.
5777. You saw none? - No, I never looked for any.
5778. Your evidence is that during the whole of this time you did not see from beginning to end a single third-class passenger? - There may have been some about there, but I never noticed them.
5779. You did not see them? - I never noticed any.
5780. Were many belts left in the compartments? - I cannot say.
5781. Were you one of the first or one of the last of the men? - I was about the fourth one to get a belt.
5782. At the time did you think whom these belts were intended for? - No.
5783. You made no inquiries? - No.
5784. All you did was to go and get them? - Yes, the Chief Steward of the third-class told us.
5785. Told you to do so? - Yes.
5786. And you cannot tell me his name? - No.

Examined by Mr. HOLMES.

5787. Were there any third-class passengers by the boats? - I could not tell you; there were only two boats left; those were the two on the port side.
5788. That is where you saw the shots fired? - I saw one shot fired, that was by the officer in one of the boats.
5789. Do you know which officer it was? - No.
5790. Do you know what it was that led to his firing the shot? - I could not tell you.
5791. You did not see any confusion on deck? - No, none at all.
5792. Did you see him fire any shots anywhere but into the water? - No, that is all I saw him fire - one shot between the ship's side and the boat.
5793. You did not see the circumstances that led up to that? - No.

Examined by Mr. EDWARDS.

5794. When you got the order, "All out of the engine room," did you see any of the engineers coming up? - No, not at the time.
5795. Between the time when you left the engine room and the time that you say that you saw certain engineers on the boat deck, how much time had elapsed? - I should say about half an hour.
5796. Did you at the time, or immediately after you heard the order, "All out of the engine room," hear any orders given to close the watertight doors? - No.
5797. It has been said that there is a float that automatically closes the doors? - It works by electricity.
5798. Is not that float below the level of the engine room? - I cannot say; I never saw one.
      The Attorney-General: We will give some evidence of it later on - we know something about it - so that you may ascertain what it is.
      Mr. Edwards: All the engineers are gone, and I wanted to get something more than mere theoretical evidence.
      The Attorney-General: Such evidence as we can give, we will call about it.
5799. (Mr. Clement Edwards.) Do you know anything at all about the working of the float? - No. I never saw a float.

Examined by Mr. LAING.

5800. Do you know the "Titanic" was fitted for about 1000 third-class passengers? - No.
5801. Was there a large number of lifebelts in the third-class accommodation? - Yes, in this locker there were.
5802. You know she only carried about 700 third-class passengers? - I could not tell you.
5803. Do you know of the little disc we have been told about which shows what the engines are doing? - The revolutions?
5804. No, a little red-coloured glass which shows when the engines are stopped? - I hardly follow you.
5805. We were told that when the engines are stopped - Oh, that is in the stokehold. We know inside when the engines are stopped; that is in the stokehold; that is when they ring up separate from the telegraph. That is a little thing about so big to show when the engine is stopped. That is rung by one of the engineers in the engine room.
5806. Is it your view that the engines were not stopped until after the crash? - No. We did 75 revolutions at 11 o'clock.
      Mr. Laing: Your Lordship remembers Barrett, whose evidence was that the little red disc came up and he got an order about the dampers, and then followed the crash.
      The Attorney-General: Yes. Everything followed very quickly upon the other, but you are right in saying it was before.
      The Commissioner: What is the reference?
      Mr. Laing: Question 1855 down to 1862.
      The Commissioner: Will you read it to me?
      Mr. Laing: Yes. In Question 1856 he describes where he was, and at 1860 the question is: "Now just tell us what happened that you noticed? - (A.) There is like a clock rigged up in the stokehold and a red light goes up when the ship is supposed to stop; a white light for full speed, and I think it is a blue light for slow."
      The Witness: I cannot say what light goes up in the stokehold.
      Mr. Laing: "This red light came up. I am the man in charge of the watch, and I called out, 'Shut all dampers.' (Q.)You saw this red light? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) You knew that was an order to stop the engines? - (A.) It says 'Stop' - a red piece of glass and an electric light inside. (Q.) Shutting the dampers I suppose, would be? - (A.) To shut the wind off the fires. (Q.) To shut the draught off the fires. And you gave an order, 'Shut the dampers'? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) Was that order obeyed? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) What was the next thing that happened? - (A.) The crash came before we had them all shut. (Q.) They were shutting them when the crash came? - (A.) Yes." That is Barrett.
      The Attorney-General: That is right.
      The Commissioner: Can that be accurate, that the crash came after he saw the red light?
      Mr. Laing: Yes.
      The Commissioner: "This red light came up. I am the man in charge of the watch, and I called out, 'Shut all dampers.'" The red light means the engines are stopped.
      The Attorney-General: No, the order to stop, I understand; it is the order to stop. It does not mean they are stopped.
      The Commissioner: Until this morning I thought the order to stop and the stopping were fairly simultaneous.
      Mr. Laing: So they are, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: Apparently, according to the evidence we have heard this morning, it takes about ten minutes for the engines to stop.
      The Attorney-General: I do not think he said that, oh no.
      Mr. Laing: He said some substantial time, but as a matter of fact it only takes a few seconds.
      The Commissioner: He gave the order "Stop" and it was obeyed. I took down that this took about ten minutes.
      The Attorney-General: Ten minutes between that and the next order, which was "Slow ahead." (To the Witness.) Is that right?
      The Commissioner: I wish you would get it quite clear.
      The Attorney-General: I think it is right.
      The Commissioner: Will you allow me to ask so that I understand it myself?
      The Attorney-General: Certainly, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: You remember the order to stop? - Yes.

Page 146

5807. That, I suppose, was obeyed instantaneously by the men in the engine room? - Yes.
5808. The next order was "Slow ahead"? - Yes.
5809. Now, what time elapsed between the order to stop and the order to slow ahead? - About 10 minutes.
5810. And what was happening during that 10 minutes? Had the ship ceased to move and the engines ceased to move? - When they rang down "Stop" they shut the steam off, and then it is bound to go on until the steam is right out of her.
5811. How long does that take? - About 10 minutes.
      The Commissioner: That is what I understood.
      Mr. Laing: That is what he said.
      The Commissioner: That is to say, that although the engineers do all they can to stop the engines they do not in fact stop for 10 minutes. One of my colleagues says that is absurd.
      The Attorney-General: So I think it is, from our evidence.
      The Witness: Do you mean from the time they stop till they go again?
5812. (The Commissioner.) Let us get it clear. There comes the order to stop? - Yes.
5813. And that is obeyed by the engineers instantly? - Yes.
5814. But you say there is some steam that has to be exhausted? - Yes.
5815. And while that steam is being exhausted, although the engineer has stopped his engines - that is, say, done what is necessary to stop them - the engines continue to revolve? - Yes.
5816. Now how long after the engineer has put on the stop do the engines revolve? - About five revolutions.
      The Attorney-General: We must take the 10 minutes to be, what I understood him to say, and what I think is clear now, between the order to stop and the going slow ahead.
      The Commissioner: That is a very different thing altogether.
      The Witness: That is what I thought you meant.
      The Commissioner: The five revolutions are of no account, and therefore my first impression that "Stop" meant what it says was right. The engines had stopped.
      Mr. Laing: Yes.
      The Witness: It just turned five times, that is all.
5817. (The Commissioner.) And then they remained in that stopped condition for 10 minutes? - Yes.
      The Attorney-General: That is the point.
      The Commissioner: And then came the order, "Slow ahead."
      The Attorney-General: That is it.
5818. (Mr. Laing.) The point I am upon is whether you felt the shock before the stop came or after? - After - no, before. It was when the shock came that they rang down to stop the engines.
5819. Do you say the shock came first? - No, afterwards.
5820. After the order to stop came the shock? - No.
5821. Very well, then you put it the other way? - When the shock came they rang down, "Stop the engines."
5822. (The Commissioner.) The shock comes and then the order to stop? - Yes.
5823. That is what I understood? - We thought it was something in the engine room that had gone wrong.
      Mr. Laing: That does not agree with Barrett and it does not agree with Dillon. Both of those witnesses put the stop order first and the shock very shortly afterwards.
      The Attorney-General: I was going on to refer, your Lordship will remember, to the orders that came from the bridge; there is first the three bells and then the telephone.
      The Commissioner: That comes from the crow's-nest.
      The Attorney-General: From the crow's-nest to the bridge; then the telephone to the bridge, the response from the bridge; immediately then the order to the telegraph. The first order relates to the telegraph and gives the order which goes down to the engine room, "Hard a-starboard." That is what happened. We shall be able to fix it later when we come to examine all the evidence together.
      The Commissioner: The question is in what order of events does the shock come.
      The Attorney-General: I should say from the evidence it came after. I should think that the first thing that happened was the three bells, and the telephone, and then the order from the bridge, "Hard a-starboard," immediately after the order on the telephone. It is difficult to understand otherwise, because they did get the warning, although it is very shortly before, but immediately the order is given, and then came the shock, so far as we have had evidence from the bridge.
      Mr. Laing: I accept that; that seems to agree.
      The Attorney-General: I am only dealing with the evidence, as far as it has gone.
      Mr. Laing: So am I.
      The Attorney-General: It is very difficult, I quite agree with my learned friend.
      The Commissioner: I understand what you are saying, Mr. Laing.
5824. (Mr. Laing - To the Witness.) Did you ever see the dial of this telegraph at all, or are you only going by the rings? - No, I saw it.
5825. Up to the time when you left the engine room, had you seen any water below at all? - No.
5826. Neither in the engine room nor any of the compartments which you saw? - No.
5827. Did you meet any water in the alleyway as you went up? - No.
5828. None at all? - No.
5829. Up to the last? - No.
5830. Did I catch you to say that you saw the lights of a number of boats belonging to the "Titanic" when you were on board? - Yes, on the starboard side well away from the ship.
5831. How many engineers do you think there were? - Eight I saw.
5832. Officer engineers, I mean? - About eight I saw on deck.
5833. There are 36 I am told, all told? - I think so.
5834. So when you said you saw all the engineers you must have meant all the engineers that you knew? - Yes.
5835. You saw only eight of them? - I saw eight of them.
5836. Out of 36? - Yes.

The Attorney-General: Your Lordship will find this dealt with at page 38 - I mean the question which you asked before about the proper order of the signals and orders. It is summarised at Question 993.
The Commissioner: Yes, the question beginning "You told us what happened."
The Attorney-General: Yes. "First of all the signal of the three bells" - I think I am summarising what he said - "then the telephone message, then it was repeated to the First Officer, 'Iceberg right ahead'" - that is because another officer received the telephone message - "then the First Officer went to the telegraph to give an order to the engine room, and gave you the order 'hard a-starboard'? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) At any rate, up to his going to the telegraph as I follow you, there was no change of speed?- (A.) No, Sir. (Q.) What that order was you do not know? - (A.) No, Sir. (Q.) Then 'hard a starboard' and you immediately put up your helm?- (A.) Hard a-starboard. (Q.) Right over? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) What is it, 35 degrees? - (A.) Forty degrees. (Q.) Then you got the helm right over? - (A.) Right over, Sir."
The Commissioner: "Then she comes round two points and then strikes."
The Attorney-General: Yes. "Is that right? - (A.) The vessel veered" - round to port - "veered off two points" was his expression. It is in the Quartermaster's evidence.

Page 137

Re-examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

5837. There are two matters I want you to help us upon, if you can. You told us the time when you got the order all the watertight doors were open. That was at quarter to one? - Yes.
5838. But I do not think you told us what time it was when you went up on deck? - When we left the engine room?
5839. Yes. - Twenty past one.
      The Attorney-General: I do not think your Lordship has that?
      Mr. Laing: Yes, I think so.
      The Attorney-General: My friend says he thinks you have that.
      The Witness: That was the time we left the engine room. Then we did not go straight up to the boat deck then.
5840. Can you give us any idea how long it was between that 20 past one and your getting on to the boat deck? - We had to go and get the lifebelts after that. From the time I got the lifebelts and all do you mean?
5841. Yes. You left the engine room at 1.20; you got eventually to the boat deck, and I want to know about what time it was you got on the boat deck? - About twenty to two I think it was when I got on to the boat deck.
5842. How long after you got to the boat deck was it till you got on to the davits and down the falls? - About a quarter of an hour, between a quarter of an hour and twenty minutes.
5843. That would bring it to about five minutes to two? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: When he dropped into the water.
      The Attorney-General: Yes. And we know it was about quarter-past two when she sank. That helps us now to see what was happening during this time, from 11.40 onwards.
      The Witness: I think that was the only boat that took any of them out of the water. We pulled in between six and eight, I think it was, after she sank.
5844. Yes, you are quite right, we have the evidence about it. I am not only asking you about it because we have had it from other witnesses. But you are quite right; they did do it. Now there is one other matter, correct me if I am wrong, but I think you said you went to the third-class cabin to get the lifebelts? - Yes.
5845. That must have been some time between 20 minutes past one and 20 minutes to two? - Yes.
5846. When you got there did you see any passengers? - I never noticed any.
5847. Did you go to the third-class cabin aft or forward? - Aft. The lifebelts are kept in a locker in an alleyway.
5848. I would rather like to know what you did; I think it would be of some assistance to know what you did when you went to this third-class compartment. Did you have to pass along the cabins of the third-class? - Yes, you have to go right along the cabins.
5849. Is it on the same floor as the alleyway? - Yes.
5850. Your engine room opens upon the alleyway? - Yes.
5851. That is deck E. I think it is rather important to see where he went, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Then you passed along aft? - Yes.
5852. And along that alleyway are there third-class cabins both to port and starboard of you? - I do not know about that. As we are going aft there are cabins on the right-hand side, that would be the port side.
5853. It may be that there are not cabins on the starboard side of that alleyway? - That would be the port side, as I am walking aft; that is the right hand side of me.
5854. That we have got clear. If you pass along aft along that alleyway, on your right hand side, as you are walking aft, and therefore on the port side of the vessel, there are the third-class cabins? - Yes.
5855. Are there any on your left hand side as you are walking? - I cannot say.
5856. I do not make out there are? - I think that is the post office and hatchways.
5857. Yes; that is quite right. Now I want to know how far aft you went in order to get to this locker where the lifebelts were kept? - Not very far.
5858. Have you any idea how far? - No, I have not an idea of the distance.
5859. Do you remember, as you were walking aft, was the locker on your right hand side or on your left? - I cannot say, because we had to go up a little alleyway to it and turn round again. It was the first time I had ever been there. There are several alleyways there.
5860. (The Commissioner.) The alleyways down to the third-class berths? - Yes.
5861. (The Attorney-General.) Did you go up them? - No, I went straight along on the same alleyway.
5862. Just give us an idea; how many of the entrances to the berths do you think you passed? - About four alleyways, I think.
      The Attorney-General: Your Lordship sees how the cabins run.
      The Commissioner: I do. Did he pass the end of four alleyways?
5863. (The Attorney-General.) Yes, he passed the end of four alleyways. The third-class passengers would have to go down these alleyways to go to their berths? - Yes.
5864. You did not go down there? - No, I passed right along.
5865. And you passed three or four of these? - Yes, I think it is about three or four.
5866. That is the part of the third-class where the women and children were? - Yes.
5867. Did you see any women and children along there at all? - No.
5868. Either where you passed or looking further aft or further forward? - No, I never saw anybody.
5869. (The Commissioner.) Were the doors of the cabins open? - I cannot say.
5870. You did not go down the alley? - No.
      The Commissioner: Will you ask him if the watertight doors are automatic there?
5871. (The Attorney-General.) I am going to ask some questions about that. I am going to ask some general questions about that, because we have not had it yet, and he may be able to help us. (To the Witness.) With regard to the water-tight doors, you have told us about those which close down automatically from the bridge, on to the inner bottom? - Yes, with electricity.
5872. That is right - from the electric switch. What I want to know is this; there are a number of other water-tight doors, are there not? - I have not seen any, only the doors which they lower down from the bridge.
5873. Do you only know those 12? - Yes, that is all. There are other doors up in the working alleyways which they push to; they have about 12 catches on them.

Page 138

5874. It is those we want to know about. There are other watertight doors? - Yes, those up in the alleyways.
5875. That is what I want to know something about. Those are not doors which close from the bridge automatically? - No, they swing like an ordinary door.
5876. How are they closed? - They have about 12 catches on them like handles and catches you turn over. You turn them either way.
      The Commissioner: He says they swing.
      The Witness: Yes.
      The Commissioner: They slide, do they not?
5877. (The Attorney-General.) Some slide and some are on hinges. I do not know which these are? - Those are all on hinges which they have there.
      The Attorney-General: I am told by those who ought to know better that they are sliding doors.
      The Commissioner: Well, I saw some of them, and those I saw were sliding doors.
5878. (The Attorney-General.) So I understand. (To the Witness.) At any rate they are doors which close comparatively easily by hand. Is that it? - Yes.
5879. You were speaking just now about the alleyways, were you not? - Yes.
5880. Are you sure that watertight doors were there? - Well, I do not know whether they are watertight doors or not. I know there are doors.
      The Commissioner: When he speaks of alleyways, they are passages between the berths of the third-class passengers, but they are small things of no consequence, and he did not go between any of them, but he went along the broad alleyway in which there are several watertight doors. Will you look at this plan which I have (handing the same to the Attorney-General.). You will see where I have marked a red line.
      The Attorney-General: That is right. That is where he walked.
      The Commissioner: That is the passage he walked along.
      The Attorney-General: Quite right.
      The Commissioner: And going aft he would have small alleyways on his right going between the berths of the third-class passengers?
      The Attorney-General: Quite right.
      The Commissioner: Now, if you look along the broad alleyway he walked along you will find several watertight doors marked.
      The Attorney-General: I do.
      The Commissioner: And it is those I want to know something about.
      The Attorney-General: I agree. Let me ask him to follow it along. Your Lordship is asking about these two through which he passed?
      The Commissioner: Are there only two? I thought there were three.
      The Attorney-General: I only see two.
      The Commissioner: I want to know if they were open or shut. Those are not automatic?
5881. (The Attorney-General.) Your Lordship is quite right; it depends upon where you start from. If you start from the place where he came up there would be three. It had been marked red, and I thought that was the passage. There would be three from his coming up from his engine room if he passes along, assuming that he is going to the point, which I think is the one he indicates, which I am going to ask him about. (To the Witness.) Do you remember, as you passed along aft, coming to a locker which is amidships where the lifebelts were kept? - I cannot say, because we had to go up two alleyways to get to the locker. We had to go past the staircase where the third-class go on deck. We had to go by that and up a little alleyway and then turn to our left again.
5882. That is right?
5883. (The Commissioner.) Had you ever been there before? - No.
      The Attorney-General: That is exactly what he would do to get to the place I am indicating, if your Lordship will look. I will mark it, if I may.
      The Commissioner: Yes, certainly.
      The Attorney-General: I put a blue mark round the locker. As the witness has described it, it quite accurately represents what he would do to get to that spot. He would pass a staircase there on the right, then he goes along in a straight line to the left and goes along another alleyway, and there he would get to the locker. That is quite right.
5884. (The Commissioner.) Did you go down any of the small alleyways between the berths of the third-class passengers? - No, Sir.
5885. You passed the mouth of several of them? - Yes, about three or four, I think.
5886. (The Attorney-General.) Do you know the Chief Steward's room? - Yes.
5887. Was that just opposite the place where you got the lifebelts? - No, that is right in the alleyway, just against the staircase. We had to go round here and up another alleyway and turn round on the left to get to this locker. It is the place we used to go and get the stamps in the "Olympic," and I think this place was the same.
5888. There would be various offices on your left, as you are walking aft to get these stamps that you told us about and things of that sort? - Yes, the post office is just there on the left. We had to go past the third-class.
      The Attorney-General: Now, I want you to tell us about these watertight doors.
      The Commissioner: Before you leave that, you say that the Chief Third-class Steward's bunk, or room, or whatever it is is just close to the locker where the lifebelts were?
      The Attorney-General: I tried to get something about it from him, but I doubt whether he knows it.
      The Commissioner: He had never been in this part of the ship before in his life.
      The Attorney-General: It was in answer to a question I put to him about that that he said that was further forward that he passed that to get to the place he used to get the stamps in. Evidently what he means is that there are some offices that he would pass on the left as he walked aft, and he was referring to one of those.
      The Commissioner: Yes, because he told us he had never been in this part of the ship before in his life.
5889. (The Attorney-General.) In point of fact there is the Second-class Purser's office, which would be very likely the office he was referring to. (To the Witness.) Now, I want to ask you about these watertight doors in the alleyway. Were they open? - Yes, they were open.
5890. That is to say you walked through these three doors, and, so far as you know, was there any order given to close any water-tight doors? - I cannot say up there.
5891. As far as you know, of course, the watertight doors closed down below would be closed from above, from the bridge, that we know? - Yes, Sir, but them in the alleyway they were open, and they were open at the time that I left the alleyway.
      The Commissioner: It is obvious they were open. He could not have got along otherwise.
      The Attorney-General: That is obvious, of course. I think we shall call evidence showing that everything was open there.
      Mr. Edwards: There is one point, my Lord, in which there seems to be a little disparity between this witness and Grainger [Ranger]. This witness says that he was taken into boat 14. Grainger's [Ranger's] evidence was that it was boat 4. It may save confusion hereafter if the point is at once cleared up.
      The Commissioner: Yes.
      The Witness: No. 4 boat I think it was.
5892. What was No. 4 boat? - The boat I got into.
5893. (The Solicitor-General.) How do you know? - I asked a sailor after I got on the "Carpathia" what the numbers of the boats were.
5894. The other boats had gone? - This boat came back.
5895. (The Commissioner.) I thought I might have made a mistake about the number. I thought when he came up on the boat deck there were only two boats left? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: And I thought they were Nos. 14 and 16.
      The Attorney-General: Yes, 14 and 16.
      The Witness: They were loaded away, Sir. We never got into those two boats.
      The Commissioner: Were the two boats that were left Nos.. 14 and 16?

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5896. (The Attorney-General.) I think we had better get it quite clear. (To the Witness.) When you got to the port side there were two boats? - Two boats left.
5897. As I understand from all you said, the aftermost boats on the port side? - Yes.
5898. You did not get into either of those? - No.
5899. Those were just going away? - No.
5900. What happened? - I saw them rush to the ship's side from there. I went over to the starboard side again, and then we come back again.
5901. You came back again to the starboard side? - We came back from the starboard side to the port side again.
5902. When you came back to the starboard side there was nothing there, and you went back again to the port side? - Yes.
5903. The boats had gone away? - Yes.
5904. And then you found someone who called out that he wanted two more men? - Yes, right.
5905. And then you climbed up the davits and got down? - Yes, and that boat was No. 4.
5906. (The Commissioner.) Then you were pulled into No. 4 boat? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: Yes, that is quite right, and that agrees with Grainger's [Ranger's] evidence. Mr. Edwards was quite right to call attention to it; it has saved confusion.

(The Witness withdrew.)

CHARLES JOUGHIN, Sworn.

Examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL.

5907. Were you chief baker on the "Titanic"? - Yes.
5908. What was the staff of bakers under you? - Thirteen.
5909. Thirteen, and yourself as chief baker? - Yes.
5910. At the time when this accident happened, were you off duty? - Yes.
5911. In your bunk? - Yes.
5912. Did the shock wake you up? - I felt the shock and immediately got up.
5913. I do not think we need find the place exactly, but tell us, more or less, are your quarters in the aft or the fore part of the ship? - Amidship on the port side.
5914. Did you hear orders given which affected you? - No, Sir, just general orders - orders passed down from the top deck to the lower deck.
5915. You heard orders being passed down from the top deck to the lower deck? - Yes, what we call general orders.
5916. Those are called general orders, are they? - Yes.
5917. I suppose that if provisions were wanted it would be your department to look after that would it not? - No.
5918. What about bread? - The boats are provided with hard bread, what we call biscuits.
5919. Did not you hear any orders given about provisions for the boats? - Not directly from any officer. Word was passed down from the top deck and I received it eventually through other channels.
5920. What was it? - "Provision boats," or put any spare provisions you have in the boats, that was it.
5921. As I understand, the biscuits, the hard bread, would be in the boats already, or ought to be? - Yes.
5922. And it would only be the soft bread you had to think about? - Any surplus stuff we had around that was handy we would put into the boats.
5923. You heard that order passed along. Did you take steps to send up some provisions to the boats? - Yes.
5924. What was it you did, you and your men? - I sent thirteen men up with four loaves apiece, 40 pounds of bread each as near as I could guess.
5925. And your staff, your men, had they got stations for the boats? - Yes.
5926. And as far as you know did they know their stations? - Yes.
5927. Did these thirteen bakers go up with these loaves? - Yes.
5928. Did you go up on deck yourself? - I stayed in the shop for a little while, and then I followed them up the middle staircase.
5929. Which deck did you come out on to? - Eventually the boat deck.
5930. The top deck. The accident was at 11.40. Can you tell us the sort of time it was when you got to the boat deck? - How long do you think after the accident it was that you got to the boat deck? What time do you think it was? - I should say about half-past twelve, as near as I could guess.
5931. That is the time, as I understand, when you got to the boat deck? - About that time.
5932. The orders you speak of had been given, and you had already sent up the bread? - Yes.
5933. And you followed your men afterwards at about 12.30? - Yes.
5934. There is just another question about time you might help us over. You say it was half-past twelve when you got up to the boat deck. That was after these orders. Can you give us some sort of idea when it was you heard of the order for provisioning the boats? - I should say about a quarter-past twelve.
5935. Then the order is obeyed, and you get up there about half-past twelve? - Yes.
5936. When you got up to the boat deck had any order been given that you had heard about all hands going on deck? - The order had been passed round previous to that.
5937. It had? - Yes.
5938. That would be the general order, I suppose? - The general order.
5939. Had that order about all hands on deck been given before your bakers went on deck? - Oh, yes.
5940. Just two or three questions about what happened after that. Which was your boat? - I was assigned to No. 10.
5941. I do not think, my Lord, we have had any evidence about this boat yet. There are four boats on the afterpart of the boat deck on each side, and No 10 would be the first of the four? - The first one on the port side - the forward one.
      The Commissioner: The most forward boat on the port side.
      The Solicitor-General: No, the most forward boat of the aft boats.
      The Commissioner: Yes.
5942. (The Solicitor-General.) It may be convenient, to remind your Lordship that the next one to it, No. 12, was the one that the man Poingdestre was in, and the next one to that, No. 14, is the one that Morris and Scarrott were in, and this one we have not dealt with. (To the Witness.) Did you go to your boat, No. 10? - Yes.

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5943. And what did you find was the situation there? - Everything orderly. The Chief Officer was there.
5944. Is that Mr. Wilde? - Yes, Mr. Wilde.
5945. Were there passengers there? - A good many passengers there.
5946. What was happening, how far had things got? - They were getting the boat ready for getting the passengers in, and Mr. Wilde shouted out for the stewards to keep the people back, to keep the men back, but there was no necessity for it. The men kept back themselves, and we made a line and passed the ladies and children through.
5947. Who made the line? - The stewards mostly - stewards and seamen; they were all together.
5948. I think I caught you to say that though Mr. Wilde gave the order to keep the men back there was really no necessity, they kept back themselves? - Yes.
5949. Was the order good - the discipline good? - Splendid.
5950. No. 10 was being got ready. When you saw it had anybody got into the boat yet? - No.
5951. Now tell us about No. 10 in order: What happened? - It was swung out, the stewards, firemen and sailors all got in a line. We passed the ladies and children through.
5952. Into No. 10? - Into No. 10. Then we got it about half full, and then we had difficulty in finding ladies for it. They ran away from the boat and said they were safer where they were.
5953. You heard ladies saying that? - I am sure of that.
5954. (The Commissioner.) "When the boat was half full we had difficulty in finding more ladies"? - Right, Sir.
5955. "They ran away, saying they were safer where they were"? - Yes.
5956. (The Solicitor-General.) Up to this time, could you tell me had you seen any third-class passengers - women from the third-class? - Yes, Sir, plenty.
5957. So far as you saw, was any distinction made between the different classes - first-class ladies or second-class ladies or third-class ladies? - None at all.
5958. Of course, at ordinary times this boat deck is a first-class deck, a promenade, is it not? - Yes.
5959. And the third-class people would not get on to it? - It is railed off just from the boats, and the saloon passengers use it as a sunning deck.
5960. But at this time were there any barriers up? - No.
5961. You know the way, I suppose, that third-class people would have to go in order to get on to this top deck, they would have to mount some stairs, would not they? - They have to go up some stairs, but there was an emergency door from the third-class into the second-class leading up the broad staircase that was open very early.
5962. We will find where that is. There was an emergency door from there leading from the third-class to the second-class? - From the third-class alleyway, what we call the working alleyway, there is a wide door, and that was open early on.
5963. Could you tell us whether that door was open? - It was open.
5964. Let us just fix this. It opens, you said, into the broad staircase? - Yes.
5965. What staircase is that; who uses it as a rule? - Second-class passengers as a rule while at sea.
5966. Is that the staircase - correct me if I am wrong - that runs up the funnel place, as it were? - No, Sir, it runs up the centre of the ship to the second-class smoke-room and the decks.
5967. It is abaft of the fourth funnel? - Oh, yes, it is abaft the after-funnel.
      The Solicitor-General: Will your Lordship look for a moment at the big section?.
      The Commissioner: It is all on this plan.
      The Solicitor-General: If your Lordship has got it I need not trouble.
      The Commissioner: This emergency door that you are talking about is, I think, on the same deck that the last witness was telling us about.
      The Solicitor-General: Yes, I think it is, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: Then if you go up you get into what is called the second-class entrance into the dining saloon - the second-class dining saloon.
      The Solicitor-General: My Lord, may I suggest that I think it is a little abaft of that.
      The Commissioner: What is abaft of it?
      The Solicitor-General: The staircase, my Lord. The second-class staircase appears to me to be a little bit further aft than that.
      The Commissioner: Not according to my plan.
5968. (The Solicitor-General.) I think your Lordship is right; I beg your pardon. I see my Lord, now. (To the Witness.) Let us just fix this second-class staircase into which the third-class people get when this door is opened. Is it a stairway that rises through several decks up to the top? - Yes, and there is a lift, an electric lift.
5969. There is an elevator alongside at the same place as the staircase? - Yes.
5970. Your Lordship has got that, I think, on the plan? - That is the staircase in yellow. (pointing on big plan.)
5971. Is that the staircase and the elevator in the middle of it - the second-class staircase (pointing on the big plan.)? - No, it is the one further aft, is it not? It is immediately behind the aft funnel. That is the staircase. (pointing on the plan.)
5972. And the third-class people come along their alleyway through this emergency door and get direct into that staircase (pointing on plan.) - Yes.
5973. And all they have to do is to go straight up on to the boat deck? - Yes, that is right.
5974. Just tell us, please, how is it you know that emergency door was open for them? - Because I went down that way to my room after shutting the bakery door.
5975. You shut the bakery door, went down to your own room, and you saw this door was then open? - Yes.
5976. When you went down to your room and found this door open, did you at that time see third-class people coming up? - Coming along the alleyway some women, with two bags in their hands. They would not let go of them.
5977. A number of third-class passengers were coming up? - Yes.
5978. You have already helped us about the time. Could you tell us at all what time you think that was? - You say it was half-past twelve when you got on to the boat deck yourself? - That was just after I had passed the first lot of bread up, and I went down to my room for a drink, as a matter of fact, and as I was coming back I followed up my men on to the deck.
5979. Does that mean it would be about a quarter-past twelve? - A little after that.
5980. Something between a quarter-past twelve and half-past twelve? - Yes, about that.
5981. Now, just let us go back to boat No. 10 and finish it. You said that when it was about half full with women you could not find more women to pass along the line and put into the boat? - We had difficulty in finding them.
5982. What was done; what happened? - I myself and three or four other chaps went on the next deck and forcibly brought up women and children.
5983. You went down to the A deck? - Yes, to the A deck.
5984. And you mean you brought them up to the boat deck? - Brought them up to the boat deck - there are only about ten stairs to go up.
5985. Did not they want to go? - No, Sir. They were all sitting - squatting down on the deck.
5986. And you and three or four others brought them up? - Yes.
5987. Did you put them into the boat? - We threw them in. The boat was standing off about a yard and a half from the ship's side, with a slight list. We could not put them in; we could either hand them in or just drop them in.
5988. You said "a slight list." Was it the "Titanic" that had the list? - Yes, Sir.
5989. A list to port? - Yes, a list to port, and that made the boat swing out about a yard and a half.
5990. Supposing the ship was lying on an even keel with no list, how much space would there be between the rail and the boat? - Just enough space to step into it.

Page 141

5991. Did that fill your boat or was there still room? - Eventually it was filled - pretty well filled anyway.
5992. Was it filled from the boat deck? - Yes.
5993. You did not, I think, go away in the boat? - No.
5994. Although it was your boat? - I was supposed to be captain of the boat by the crew list.
5995. By the crew list you were in charge? - Yes.
5996. Why was it that you did not get in? - Well, I was standing waiting for orders by the officer to jump in, and he then ordered two sailors in and a steward - a steward named Burke. I was waiting for orders to get into the boat, but they evidently thought it was full enough and I did not go in it.
5997. Do you know who the two sailors were? - No.
5998. (The Commissioner.) How many men were put on board this boat? - As far as I could see only three - two sailors and a steward.
5999. (The Solicitor-General.) Two sailors and a steward named Burke? - Yes. That is all I could see.
6000. As far as you could see, were all the rest women and children? - Women and children.
6001. Was she lowered down? - Yes.
6002. And went away from the side of the ship - I did not see her after she was lowered.
6003. That is No. 10. There would be three boats on the port side? - Yes.
6004. Abaft of that? - Yes; Nos. 12, 14, and 16.
6005. Was work being done in connection with them at the same time? - Yes, but a little later than us.
6006. Then, of those four, Nos. 10, 12, 14, and 16, was No. 10 the one that got into the water first? - Yes.
6007. Did you stay by the davits of No. 10 till she was launched? - Oh yes.
6008. And then where did you go? - I went "scouting round," as we call it.
6009. I want to know if you saw anything of Nos. 12, 14, and 16? - I did not see them go. I saw them filling up, but I went away. I went down below after that.
6010. No. 10 was your boat, and No. 10 had gone? - Yes.
6011. And then you went below? - Yes.
6012. As far as the boats are concerned, is that all you can tell us? - As far as those boats, yes.
6013. Now I want to ask you a question about the boat list. You say you knew that you were supposed to be in command of No. 10? - Yes.
6014. Had you seen a list like that up in the "Titanic" (Showing list.) - Yes, there was one in the kitchen, posted up on the Thursday with just the kitchen staff on it.
6015. The kitchen staff on the kitchen list was posted when? - On the wall in the kitchen.
6016. Which day? - On the galley, what call "D" deck.
6017. Which day? - On the Thursday.
6018. And did that list show as regards the galley staff, the cooking staff how they were distributed among the different boats? - Yes.
6019. You say it was on the Thursday, she left Queenstown on the Thursday, did she not? - Yes.
6020. Now we just want to finish your experience. You say you went below after No. 10 had gone. Did you stay below or did you go up again? - I went down to my room and had a drop of liqueur that I had down there, and then while I was there I saw the old doctor and spoke to him and then I came upstairs again.
6021. On to the boat deck? - Yes, on to the boat deck.
6022. Just tell us shortly what you did? - I saw that all the boats had gone - I saw that all the boats were away.
6023. That all the boats had gone? - Yes, that all the boats had gone.
6024. Do you mean forward as well as aft? - I could not see very well forward, and I did not look, because they went off first, as far as I could understand.
6025. At all events, all the boats had gone? - Yes.
6026. Yes, what next? - I went down on to "B" deck. The deck chairs were lying right along, and I started throwing deck chairs through the large ports.
6027. What did you do with the deck chairs? - I threw them through the large ports.
6028. Threw them overboard? - Yes.
6029. They would float, I suppose? - Yes.
6030. I think one sees why. Just to make it clear, why did you do that? - It was an idea of my own.
6031. Tell us why; was it to give something to cling to? - I was looking out for something for myself, Sir.
6032. Quite so. Did you throw a whole lot of them overboard? - I should say about 50.
6033. Were other people helping you to do it? - I did not see them.
6034. You were alone, as far as you could see? - There was other people on the deck, but I did not see anybody else throwing chairs over.
6035. Now by this time was the list of the ship the same, or do you think she was worse? - She had gone a little more to port.
6036. And about being down by the head, could you tell at all? - I did not notice anything. I did not notice her being much down by the head.
6037. Do you mean that the list to port was more serious than - ? - I thought so.
6038. Than being down by the head? - I thought so, yes.
6039. Then, after having thrown these deck chairs overboard, did you go up to the boat deck again? - I went to the deck pantry.
6040. Tell us what happened? - I went to the deck pantry, and while I was in there I thought I would take a drink of water, and while I was getting the drink of water I heard a kind of a crash as if something had buckled, as if part of the ship had buckled, and then I heard a rush overhead.
6041. Do you mean a rush of people? - Yes, a rush of people overhead on the deck.
6042. Is the deck pantry on A deck? - Yes.
6043. So that the deck above would be the boat deck? - Yes, I could hear it.
6044. You could hear it? - Yes.
6045. People running - yes? - When I got up on top I could then see them clambering down from those decks. Of course, I was in the tail end of the rush.
6046. (The Commissioner.) Clambering down, climbing down from where? - These rails here and steps. They came down this way. (Showing on model.)
6047. (The Solicitor-General.) They had run along as far aft as they could on the boat deck? - Yes.
6048. Did you see them clambering down to get on to the A deck so as to get further aft? - Their idea was to get on to the poop.
6049. You say that you heard this sound of buckling or crackling. Was it loud; could anybody in the ship hear it? - You could have heard it, but you did not really know what it was. It was not an explosion or anything like that. It was like as if the iron was parting.
6050. Like the breaking of metal? - Yes.
6051. Was it immediately after that sound that you heard this rushing of people and saw them climbing up? - Yes.
6052. What did you do? - I kept out of the crush as much as I possibly could, and I followed down - followed down getting towards the well of the deck, and just as I got down towards the well she gave a great list over to port and threw everybody in a bunch except myself. I did not see anybody else besides myself out of the bunch.
6053. That was when you were in the well, was it? - I was not exactly in the well, I was on the side, practically on the side then. She threw them over. At last I clambered on the side when she chucked them.
6054. You mean the starboard side? - The starboard side.
6055. The starboard was going up and she took a lurch to port? - It was not going up, but the other side was going down.

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6056. It is very difficult to say how many, I daresay, but could you give me some idea, of how many people there were in this crush? - I have no idea, Sir; I know they were piled up.
6057. What do you mean when you say, "No idea." Were there hundreds? - Yes, there were more than that - many hundreds, I should say.
6058. (The Solicitor-General.) You said this vessel took a lurch to port and threw them in a heap. Did she come back; did she right herself at all? - No, Sir.
6059. She took a lurch and she did not return? - She did not return.
6060. Can you tell us what happened to you? - Yes, I eventually got on to the starboard side of the poop.
6061. (The Commissioner.) Will you point out to me where you got to? - This is where I eventually got to. (Showing on the model.)
6062. You got on to the poop, did you? - Along here (showing).
6063. (The Solicitor-General.) What you said, I think, was that you got to the starboard side of the poop? - Yes, on the side of the ship.
6064. On the side of the ship? - Yes.
6065. Is that on the bulwark itself? - I do not know what you call it, Sir. It is the side.
6066. (The Commissioner.) "I got on the side of the ship by the poop"? - Yes.
6067. (The Solicitor-General.) You see on the model that part of it is painted black and part of it is painted white. Do you mean you were on the part that is painted black or the part that is painted white? - I got along here (showing), and eventually got hold of the rails here. This side here was like this. This side, instead of being like this, was like that. (Showing on model.)
6068. You got hold of the rail. Let Mr. Wilding turn the model up till you say how far you think it had gone. (Mr. Wilding turned the model.)? - I should say about that, but then the forward part is sloping. (Showing on model.)
6069. The forward part is down by the head? - Yes.
6070. Did you find anybody else holding that rail there on, the poop? - No.
6071. You were the only one? - I did not see anybody else.
6072. Were you holding the rail so that you were inside the ship, or were you holding the rail so that you were on the outside of the ship? - On the outside.
6073. So that the rail was between you and the deck? - Yes.
6074. Then what happened? - Well, I was just wondering what next to do. I had tightened my belt and I had transferred some things out of this pocket into my stern pocket. I was just wondering what next to do when she went.
6075. And did you find yourself in the water? - Yes.
6076. Did you feel that you were dragged under or did you keep on the top of the water? - I do not believe my head went under the water at all. It may have been wetted, but no more.
6077. Are you a good swimmer? - Yes.
6078. How long do you think you were in the water before you got anything to hold on to? - I did not attempt to get anything to hold on to until I reached a collapsible, but that was daylight.
6079. Daylight, was it? - I do not know what time it was.
6080. Then you were in the water for a long, long time? - I should say over two hours, Sir.
6081. Were you trying to make progress in the water, to swim, or just keeping where you were? - I was just paddling and treading water.
6082. And then daylight broke? - Yes.
6083. Did you see any icebergs about you? - No, Sir, I could not see anything.
6084. Did it keep calm till daylight, or did the wind rise at all? - It was just like a pond.
6085. Then you spoke of a collapsible boat. Tell us shortly about it? - Just as it was breaking daylight I saw what I thought was some wreckage, and I started to swim towards it slowly. When I got near enough, I found it was a collapsible not properly upturned but on its side, with an officer and I should say about twenty or twenty-five men standing on the top of it.
6086. (The Commissioner.) With an officer and what? - I should say roughly about twenty-five men standing on the top - well, on the side, not on the top.
6087. (The Solicitor-General.) Do you know which officer it was? - Yes, Mr. Lightoller.
6088. Mr. Lightoller and you think about twenty or twenty-five people? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: "Men," he said.
6089. (The Solicitor-General.) Yes, men, my Lord? - Yes, all men.
6090. You said something about its being turned on its side? - Yes.
6091. I wish you would explain what you mean? - It was like as if one of those lifeboats was on its side, floating on its side. (Pointing to model.)
6092. Then they were not in the boat, were they? - No.
6093. They were - ? - Standing on the side, holding one another's shoulders.
6094. Did you swim towards it? - Yes.
6095. Was there any room for you? - No, Sir.
6096. You agree, do you, that there really was not room for you? - There was not room.
6097. And so they could not take you in? - There was no room for any more. They were standing on it then.
6098. Did you stay near it? - I tried to get on it, but I was pushed off it, and I what you call hung around it.
6099. How much later on was it that you were picked up? - I eventually got round to the opposite side, and a cook that was on the collapsible recognised me, and held out his hand and held me - a chap named Maynard.
6100. Was he able to pull you out of the water, or was he only just able to help to support you? - No.
6101. He gave you a hand, and you kept treading water? - No. My lifebelt helped me, and I held on the side of the boat.
6102. You had been wearing a lifebelt? - Yes, all the time.
6103. So that your feet would be in the water? - Yes, and my legs.
6104. And you supported yourself by your lifebelt. I do not want to be harrowing about it, but was the water very cold? - I felt colder in the lifeboat - after I got in the lifeboat.
6105. You were picked up, were you, by a lifeboat later on? - We were hanging on to this collapsible, and eventually a lifeboat came in sight.
6106. And they took you aboard? - They got within about 50 yards and they sung out that they could only take 10. So I said to this Maynard, "Let go my hand," and I swam to meet it, so that I would be one of the 10.
6107. Did you swim to it, and were you taken in? - Yes, I was taken in.
6108. You have said you thought it was about two hours before you saw this collapsible, and then you spent some time with the collapsible. How long do you suppose it was after you got to the collapsible that you were taken into the lifeboat? - I should say we were on the collapsible about half an hour.
6109. That means that for some two and a half hours you were in the water? - Practically, yes.
6110. We may be able to identify this boat? - I do not know it.
      The Attorney-General: We can identify it, I think.
6111. (The Solicitor-General.) This lifeboat that took you aboard - did it also take some men off the collapsible? - Yes.
6112. How many? - I could not tell you, Sir.
6113. You did not notice? - I climbed in and then she went alongside the collapsible afterwards, after I had got in, but I did not notice how many she took.
6114. Do you know an able seaman named Lucas? - No, Sir.
6115. Who has given some evidence here? - No.
6116. Can you tell me this. Did this lifeboat that took you aboard, and also took some others aboard, keep you in it until you got to the "Carpathia," or were any people transferred? - All kept in it till we got to the "Carpathia."

Page 143

6117. You do not know who was in command of the boat that picked you up? - Mr. Lightoller left the collapsible and then took charge of the boat till we reached the "Carpathia."
6118. And you say the collapsible kept company with the lifeboat, did it? - I do not know what became of that afterwards, Sir. It was half under water while we were on it. I do not know whether it righted itself. I do not know what became of it at all.
6119. After you and some of the others were taken on board this lifeboat, did that lifeboat rescue any other people that you know of? - No, Sir; it could not have done.
6120. It was too full? - It was filled right up.
6121. There was just room for Lightoller to get on board and take command? - There was only room for Mr. Lightoller to stand on the forward part. He had to stand on top and give orders.
6122. There was Mr. Lightoller and there was yourself. Do you know whether it took others on board, and how many? - It took a few more off the collapsible, but I did not recognise them.
6123. And this boat into which you got, the boat Lightoller took command of, what were the people who were in it - women, or men or what? - Mostly women. Bride was one that I recognised.
6124. The Marconi operator? - The Marconi boy. He was one that was taken off the same collapsible.
6125. He was on this collapsible, was he? - Yes, Bride and Maynard. Those two I recognised.
6126. Maynard was the cook? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

6127. Do you know whether any of the crew assigned to this boat, No. 10, went with her? - I do not know.
6128. You were captain of it? - I was supposed to be the captain of it.
6129. Can you give any explanation of the fact that from the evidence of yourself and most of the witnesses it does not appear that practically any of the men went with the boats to which they were stationed? - Of course I could not say about other boats, but I know I sung out the names of all the victualling department connected with the boat, and they were every man there.
6130. If there had been a boat drill or a boat muster, would it have helped the members of the crew to know their stations? - They know their stations very well. They knew exactly what to do, because they had been drilled already on the "Olympic."
6131. They had not all been on the "Olympic," I take it? - A great many of them - in fact most of them. It was practically a crew from the "Olympic."
6132. Was there any light in No. 10 when she went off? - I did not see any.
6133. Was there any light in the boat you got on to? - It was daylight.
6134. A crew of two sailors and one steward went with No. 10? - That is all I saw.
6135. Is that all? - That is all I saw.
6136. Was that sufficient for a big lifeboat? - I do not know anything about lifeboats, Sir.
6137. But you were captain of one? - I am not skilled in boats; I am put down as in charge; but, then, I would always give way to a man with nautical knowledge in the boat.
6138. How many men would you expect with you in a boat of which you would have charge? - I should say about seven or eight.
6139. When this boat, No. 10, was being sent off, was there space in the boat to take in a proper crew? - The space was there, but it was filled up with women and children.
6140. Do you know if all the four collapsible boats were sent off from the ship before she sank? - I do not know, Sir.

Examined by Mr. ROCHE.

6141. You were nearly two hours or three hours in the water, so I understand, and you can help us about a matter that has aroused a good deal of interest. How much assistance did you get from your lifebelt? Did it support you without your treading water yourself? - Yes.
6142. It did? - Yes - splendid.
      The Commissioner: You cannot say.
      Mr. Roche: There have been a good many questions about it - whether that is so or not. That was with regard to a lifebuoy, it is true, but there have been many questions raised about this, and this gentleman is in a better position than practically anyone ever has been to give an opinion about it.
6143. (The Commissioner.) What is this lifebelt made of - is it cork? - Cork.
6144. That you tie round you? - These were a new patent, better than the old ones. You slipped it over your head, and it was like a breastplate and a backplate, and you tied two straps.
      The Attorney-General: One can be produced, no doubt.
6145. (Mr. Roche.) It is very important to get it cleared up. This is the idea of the new patent, that instead of keeping it down here they put them on the body? - Mine fitted here. (showing.)
6146. Did your men know how to get them on? - Everybody knew, it was so simple.
6147. Did you show any of them? - There was no necessity to show.
6148. Did it in fact support you throughout without your treading water? - Oh, no, you had to assist it.
6149. (The Commissioner.) But you would not have sunk if you had not done anything? - No. It is only a case of keeping your head with one of those lifebelts.
6150. (Mr. Roche.) And simply treading water and paddling? - Just paddling and you keep afloat indefinitely, I should say.
6151. Now a few questions about two other matters. You mustered your own staff and got them up? - Yes.
6152. Did you do that of your own accord, or did you get directions to do so? - I did it of my own accord.
6153. You had no directions from anybody else? - There was a general order; I got no special directions.
6154. What was the general order; that is what I want to know? - All hands out - all hands out of your bunks. There were six of my men working.
6155. In this crowd of several hundreds that you told my Lord about, were you able to distinguish at all who they were, or what they were, whether they were all passengers or sailors or crew? - I could not make out.
6156. You could not make out who they were at all? - They were all mixed up.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

6157. You have told us about the means of access from the third-class quarters to the boat deck? - I said from the third-class quarters into the second-class, and from the second-class there is a wide staircase up on to the second-class deck.
6158. And ultimately to the boat deck? - Yes.
6159. It leads to the boat deck? - Yes.
6160. And there is an elevator there also? - Yes.
6161. As a matter of fact, once the dynamos are flooded, and the wires are wet, that would prevent the elevator working, would not it? - I do not know anything about that.

Page 144

The Solicitor-General: There are the stairs.
Mr. Harbinson: There are also, of course, the wide stairs.
The Commissioner: The stairs that were indicated there. (Pointing on the plan.)

6162. (Mr. Harbinson.) You said to my friend that this crew had served on the "Olympic." Do you seriously suggest that the crew was transferred from the "Olympic" to the "Titanic"? - No.
6163. (The Commissioner.) He did not say that? -. I said a good many of them.
6164. You said a good many of them had been on the "Olympic"? - A great many. Ten out of my 14 had all been on the "Olympic."
6165. (Mr. Harbinson.) That is only in the baking department? - That is one department only; but I know the stewarding was practically the same.
6166. You do not suggest that the fact that some of the crew had been on the "Olympic" would dispense with the necessity of the boat drill that my friend has referred to, and having further instructions given them as regards their positions in the boat? - No, that would not, but the previous experience on the "Olympic" would help them. That is what I mean to say.
6167. But it would not take the place of proper and adequate instructions? - It would do, it certainly would.
6168. Would it? - They would have the past experience to go on.
6169. Do you suggest that the fact of their having been previously on the "Olympic" would dispense with the necessity of the proprietors of the White Star Line giving proper instructions, and prescribing an adequate code for the members of the crew when they joined the "Titanic"? - No, I would not suggest that.
      Mr. Laing: What do you call a code of regulations?
6170. (Mr. Harbinson.) As regards their proper positions in the boat, and what they should all do in case of emergency. (To the Witness.) I think you have described quite a number of passages that lead from the third-class sleeping apartments to the second-class apartments, and then up to the boat deck. There are quite a maze of passages, I believe, in this ship? - I only described one passage, and that is what we call, on the ship, Scotland Road, the wide alleyway that leads from two or three sections of the third-class. It opens into an emergency door leading into the second-class. It is a wide alleyway.
6171. At normal times is that emergency door kept closed? - At normal times, yes. It is kept private.
6172. Would I be right in thinking that at normal times the third-class passengers would have no right of access to this door at all? - No, not in normal times.
6173. They would be forbidden to approach it? - They could walk past it, but it is never open. It is a kind of slide.
6174. So that, unless on this particular occasion special instructions were given to them as to the route they should follow they would not know where to go, would they? - They would not know unless they were given instructions.
6175. Did you hear any such instructions given? - Yes.
6176. By whom? - I saw the interpreter passing the people along that way, but there was a difficulty in getting them along because some of the foreign third-class passengers were bringing their baggage and their children along.
6177. Who was the interpreter? - I do not know his name.
6178. You do not know his name? - No.
6179. Where was he standing? - He was standing just abaft this emergency door leading into the third-class.
6180. He was pointing or directing those who came to the door? - Passing them along.
6181. That is at the door, but my point is this. Did you see or know of anyone going to the third-class quarters and giving instructions there to the third-class passengers? - No, Sir, I did not. I am out of that altogether.
6182. As to the course they should follow in order to escape? - I did not hear any orders.
6183. You did not hear any directions being given to these people to go to this door, when further instructions would be given to them? - I only saw and heard the interpreter doing his business.
6184. At what time was that? - That was when I was going down to my room after I had sent the first load of bread up, about a quarter-past twelve, or between a quarter and half-past twelve.
6185. Did you see any notice posted up or painted up in the neighbourhood of this emergency door giving instructions as to what third-class passengers should do in case of danger? - We are not allowed in the passengers' quarters.
6187. (The Commissioner.) Have you ever been in this place in this ship before? - I beg your pardon.
6188. Had you ever been along this Scotland Road alleyway? - Yes.
6189. Before this voyage? - I had been along it in Belfast while no passengers were on, but while passengers are on board the ship we are not allowed in their quarters.
6190. And you did not stop to look for any notices put up, if there were any? - No.
6191. (Mr. Harbinson.) You know the "Olympic"? - Yes.
6192. Are there any on the "Olympic," do you know? - I do not know.
6193. You say at the time this passage seemed to be obstructed by third-class passengers bringing their luggage? - Yes.
6194. Would that lead to any confusion? - It would.
6195. Did it, as a matter of fact? - There did not seem to be much confusion, only it hampered the steward; it hampered the interpreter and the men who were helping him, because they could not prevail on the people to leave their luggage.
6196. What width is this staircase that has been referred to leading up to the boat deck from the second-class department? - That is within three yards of the emergency door.
6197. Is it a wide staircase? - Yes, very wide. About six could go up abreast, I should say.
6198. I gather that unless some special instructions were given to these third-class passengers in their cabins it would be impossible for them to know of any proper means of exit and escape? - Just outside of this emergency door there are two wide staircases leading from the third-class quarters right on to the poop deck.
6199. That is not to the boat deck? - The well deck.
6200. How would they get from the well deck to the boat deck? - That would be a difficulty, because they would have to get up two or three ladders, two or three staircases.
6201. They would have to go up two or three staircases. As a matter of fact, when you came across to the boat deck, did you see some of the people on this poop deck? - Very few on the poop deck.
6202. Where were the people whom you saw? - In the well deck.
6203. All in the well deck? - Yes.
6204. And they would get from the well deck to the boat deck? - This was at the finish I saw the people. I never saw them in that quarter of the boat till the end.
6205. And you do not know? - I saw third-class passengers coming straggling through the kitchen, and they even had their baggage then.
6206. What part of the boat was the kitchen in? - On D deck, that is just the deck above the emergency door we are speaking about.
6207. How would they get from D deck to the boat deck? - Just a short staircase, which, under ordinary conditions is private for the crew, but I suppose they walked through it. One man had two bags slung over his shoulder and one in his hand, an Italian, or some nationality like that.
6208. When the boat gave this lurch that you have described to us you say a great many people were thrown into one bunch. Have you any idea of the class of passengers they were? - I could not say.

Page 145

Examined by Mr. EDWARDS.

6209. You said when you went down to the pantry that you saw some water there. Did I understand you rightly about that? - When I went down to my quarters.
6210. Which deck is that on? - E deck.
6211. What time was this? - After 1 o'clock.
      The Commissioner: How long before the vessel went down?
6212. (The Solicitor-General.) You suggested he said that he saw some water. I thought he said he went to get a drink of water? - I went to the pantry, I said, to get a drink of water.
6213. (Mr. Clement Edwards.) I want to clear up the point about it - the water that he drank and the other that he saw. (To the Witness.) You went down to your quarters, you said? - Yes.
6214. And you there saw some water? - Yes.
6215. What time would that be? - A decent bit after one.
6216. (The Commissioner.) What did you say? - A decent bit after one.
6217. What water did you see, and where was it? - There was not very much water. It would just cover my feet, that is all. The list of the ship sent it down against my settee in the room.
6218. Sent it down from where? - I could not say where it came from.
6219. Was this place of yours on the port side of the ship? - Port side, amidships.
6220. (Mr. Clement Edwards.) Would you see the direction from which this water was coming? - I should say it came from forward.
6221. Was there much of it? - No, not much; it just went over my ankles I should say.
6222. Two or three inches? - That is all.
6223. Was it flowing at all rapidly? - No.
6224. You have said that when you were down, I think in the pantry, or was it again when you were in your quarters, you heard a noise that you thought was the cracking, the breaking of the ship? What time would that be? - A few minutes after I had been to my room, I should say - after half-past one.
6225. So that before you heard this noise like the breaking of the ship you had seen this water, on E deck in your quarters? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. COTTER.

6226. Are there any bulkhead doors in the alleyway outside your room? - One immediately outside.
6227. Is that forward or aft? - Forward of my room.
6228. And the water was coming from forward? - The water was coming from forward.
6229. So that if that bulkhead door had been closed it might possibly have kept the water out? - The door was not closed, but just about that time I saw two men coming and they said they were going to close it, but I did not see it closed.
6230. Was it closed after they said that? - I do not know; I walked upstairs.
6231. You went up on deck? - Yes.
6232. Your boat you told us was No. 10, and you were in charge? - That is the one I was sent to.
6233. You said that boat was a yard and a half from the ship's side. Was there any difficulty in getting the women into that boat? - Yes. That was through the list to port. Under ordinary conditions there would be no difficulty.
6234. But the boat was slung away from the ship through the list? - Yes.
6235. Did you assist to get some women into the boat? - I assisted to get most of them.
6236. You said you went down to the next deck to bring or try to force women up. Will you tell us - did you do that? - Yes.
6237. Who did you bring up? - I brought up two children and the mother - and a mother and a child, and other stewards were bringing up other women.
6238. What did you do with the children when you put them into the boat? - Handed them into the boat or dropped them in.
6239. Threw them in? - Threw them in.
6240. And what did you do with the mother? - We wanted to throw her in, and I think she preferred to try and step in.
6241. What happened? - She missed her footing.
6242. What happened then? - This steward named Burke got hold of her foot and she swung head downwards for a few minutes, but she was got into B deck. Somebody caught her into B deck - no, A deck.
6243. Did you ever see her again? - No.
6244. The children were saved? - The children were saved.
6245. You said that you never went into your boat. Why did not you go, seeing that you were in charge? - I would have set a bad example if I had jumped into the boat. None of the men felt inclined to get into the boat.
6246. You simply stood back to assist the women and children to get in? - We stood back till the officers should give us the word, and we never got it, so that we never jumped for the boat.
6247. When you found your boat had gone you said you went down below. What did you do when you went down below? - I went to my room for a drink.
6248. Drink of what? - Spirits.
      The Commissioner: Does it very much matter what it was?
      Mr. Cotter: Yes, my Lord, this is very important, because I am going to prove, or rather my suggestion is, that he then saved his life. I think his getting a drink had a lot to do with saving his life.
      The Commissioner: He told you he had one glass of liqueur.
6249. (Mr. Cotter.) Yes. (To the Witness.) What kind of a glass was it? - It was a tumbler half-full.
6250. A tumbler half-full of liqueur? - Yes.
6251. When you were on the poop did you see anybody attempting to come up on to the poop after you - following you up? - It was an impossibility for them to get on to the poop.
6252. Are there no ladders going on to the poop? - But the ship was like that. (Showing.) The ladders would be astern. The people were all on the port side in one bunch. There was nobody on the starboard side; in fact you could not see.
6253. It has been stated that she turned practically perpendicular. I want to ask your opinion about that, because I think it is very important. Did you see the propellers come out of the water at all? - She was not far out of the water at any stage that I saw.
6254. So that to say that she stood up like that - (showing.) - would be wrong? - It would be absolutely wrong.
6255. She simply glided away? - She went down that fashion (showing.) It was a glide. There was no great shock, or anything.
6256. She simply glided away? - She simply glided away.

6267. When you got into the water and had swum to the collapsible boat you were pushed off, you say? - Yes.
6268. Who pushed you off? - I do not know.
6269. Did you say anything when you were pushed off? - No.
6270. You made no statement to anyone? - No.
6271. What condition were you in when you got to the "Carpathia"? - I was all right barring my feet, they were swelled.
6272. Were you able to walk up the ladder? - No.
6273. How did you get up? - On my knees.

Page 146

(After a short Adjournment.)

Examined by Mr. LAING.

Mr. Laing: May I mention a matter to your Lordship. The White Star Line will gladly welcome any gentleman who is appearing here in Court on behalf of those to whom your Lordship has allowed representation, to visit the "Olympic" on Monday at twelve o'clock, if they can conveniently be there at that time.
The Commissioner: The gentlemen do not appear to be all here at present, but I will mention it in a quarter of an hour or so, when I see them here.
Mr. Laing: We desire to extend a welcome to those gentlemen who are appearing here in Court on behalf of the representation your Lordship has allowed.
The Commissioner: Yes, I understand.

6274. (Mr. Laing - To the Witness.) With regard to questions which have already been asked you about your boat No. 10, you, as I understand, were captain of that boat and had a crew of some seven hands allotted to No. 10? - That was only out of the kitchen department.
6275. Seven of your department were allotted? - That is seven out of the kitchen and the bakery and butchers' department. That does not constitute the crew.
6276. You were the captain and there were seven of your department allotted to that boat? - Seven out of three departments, that is the cooking, baking, and butchering departments.
6277. When you got up on the boat deck you were there, and were your seven people there too? - Yes.
6278. And was Mr. Wilde the Chief Officer, there? - Yes.
6279. And was Mr. Wilde having this boat filled with women and children? - Yes, those were his orders.
6280. Were his orders being carried out? - Yes.
6281. Was the sea, as you have described it, like a pond? - Yes.
6282. And when this boat was full, or nearly full, did Mr. Wilde pick out the men to go in her to look after her? - Yes, he said "I want oarsmen."
6283. How many did he want? - He picked out two sailors and a steward.
6284. Three of them went with the boat? - As far as I know. I did not see any more.
6285. Had you heard that help was given or was expected? - We all knew - at least the word was passed round - that there were four or five ships rushing to us. The word was passed round, but there was nothing official.
6286. But you knew pretty well that help was expected and was coming? - Yes.
6287. And with the sea as it was, do you think three men were enough to keep this boat afloat? - I did under the circumstances, because there was no necessity for rowing. They were only there to calm the women, I thought.
6288. Calm the women and keep the boat floating until help arrived? - Yes.
6289. Was that the idea, do you think which Mr. Wilde was carrying out? - I do not know what he thought.
6290. Then there is another matter I want to ask you about. As to water, you say, as I understand, you only saw water on the alleyway? - I did not see it in the alleyway; I saw it in my room. My room is in what we call the skin of the ship, and the water was on the lower port side, just enough to cover my feet, that was all.
6291. The Commissioner: Your room is against the skin of the ship? - Yes.
6292. On the port side? - Yes.
6293. And the water that you are talking about was on the port side of your room? - Yes, the extreme port side.
6294. Did the water extend over the whole of the floor of your room? - Oh, yes, but the bulk of it was on the port side.
6295. You have said it was deep enough to come to your ankles; Where was it deep enough to come to your ankles? - On the port side.
6296. On the side which was nearest amidships, what water was there there? - I could not say, but I suppose a fraction less, that is all.
6297. (Mr. Laing.) Was there enough to wet your feet, and that sort of thing? - Yes, that is all.
6298. You have told us that you saw some men coming along to close the watertight doors on the alleyway? - Yes.
6299. Do you know who the men were? - No.
6300. Was it the last time that you were in the alleyway that you saw them coming? - Yes.
6301. And were they closing these doors? - They were setting about it.
6302. (The Commissioner.) With spanners? - Yes, one large spanner. The spanner is alongside the door in a click ready for use.
6303. (Mr. Laing.) The spanner is kept there so that anybody can use it? - Yes.
6304. That was the last time you were down the alleyway? - The last time I was on E deck.

Re-examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL.

The Solicitor-General: I think, in view of this last bit of evidence about the water, it is worthwhile finding out where this witness's room is.
The Commissioner: Exactly.

6305. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) Your room is on E deck, I understand? - On E deck, amidships.
      The Solicitor-General: Has your Lordship got the plan we have called No. 3?
      The Commissioner: I have got the plan of E deck.
      The Witness: To save confusion, I was occupying, and have occupied on the "Olympic" and the "Teutonic," the confectioner's room because it is a better room.
6306. (The Solicitor-General.) That is a little bit further aft? - Yes.
6307. There is a room which is marked on my plan, "Confectioner and Second Baker" - That is right, that is the room I occupied.
      The Solicitor-General: Does your Lordship see "Confectioner and Second Baker"?
      The Commissioner: I do.
      The Solicitor-General: That is his room.
6308. (The Commissioner - To the Witness.) Was the room that you occupied abaft of the bulkhead? - Yes.
6309. Just abaft of it? - Immediately abaft the bulkhead.
6310. (The Solicitor-General.) Has your room got a porthole? - Yes, one.
6311. The portholes on E deck are not the bottom row, but the bottom row but one, I think. Mr. Wilding tells me that is so. Because F deck has also got portholes. That was, or had been, a calm evening, I think? - Yes.
6312. Though it was cold, do you know whether your porthole was open or not? - It was closed.
6313. On E deck are the portholes in practice opened from time to time? - Very, very often we keep them open the whole of the passage.
6314. You say yours was closed, in fact? - Yes, on account of the weather, it being a wee bit cold, I suppose.
6315. So far as you know, though, of course, you could only speak of what you heard or saw, was there any order given after the accident about closing the porthole? - I never heard any order.
6316. I suppose when this ship is riding on an even keel the water would be some distance below your porthole? - Yes, a considerable distance.
6317. And, of course, below the portholes on the deck below? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: Does this model which I see here indicate the waterline on this particular voyage?

Page 147

The Solicitor-General: Yes, my Lord, I think it does, by the dotted line.
The Commissioner: Is it the top of the pink?
The Solicitor-General: I am told by Mr. Wilding it is a little lower than the top of the pink.
Mr. Laing: It is just a little below the pink.
The Commissioner: Is it marked on this model? If it is I cannot see it.
Mr. Laing: No, my Lord, it is not.
The Solicitor-General: I understood it was.
Mr. Laing: But we could have it put on if it is any convenience.
The Commissioner: It might be some convenience if you would have the waterline marked on this model.
Mr. Laing: We will put it on with a little strip of paper.
The Solicitor-General: Where one does see it, is on the upper of the two plans on this side of the room. There is the waterline indicated.
The Commissioner: There I see it - those two blue lines, one on the right and the other on the left, you mean?

6318. (The Solicitor-General.) Yes. (To the Witness.) Do you see the plan there? - Yes.
6319. E deck would not be the line immediately above that, but the line above that again? - Oh, no - I could tell you from the model here, but I cannot tell you from that.
      The Commissioner: I am afraid I threw you out of your line of question.
6320. (The Solicitor-General.) It was only to see where we were, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Now, with regard to this water, did you think that the water was sea water, or did you suppose that owing to the ship having a list, water had poured from somewhere inside the ship? - My idea was she had shipped some water forward, or a quantity of ice that had melted and had run down; but I did not give it a second thought, because it was not serious.
6321. Was there anywhere else on E deck that you saw any indication of water at all? - No.
6322. (The Commissioner.) I should like to ask a question about it. Did the water come under the door of your cabin? - The door was open.
6323. Then it was flowing from the passage; it must have come in from the passage outside? - It must have come in, yes. There is a scupper just at the outside.
6324. That passage outside is what you call an alleyway, is it not? - Yes.
6325. Is that what you call Scotland Road alleyway? - Yes.
6326. That was a fairly wide passage? - Eight or nine feet, I think, I am not sure.
6327. Was there water on the floor of that passage? - Very little.
6328. As the ship listed over to port the water flowed down into your cabin and left the alleyway from which it came fairly dry? - Yes.
6329. Did you see or believe that more water was coming in while you were standing there? - I could not see any coming; I did not know where it came from at all.
6330. Had your cabin a coaming? - A very small one; less than two inches.
6331. Two or three inches? - That is all, a wooden coaming like a doorstep.
6332. (The Solicitor-General.) After you had been in your room and seen this water there, you came out again in the alleyway, I understand, did you not? - No, I went up the middle staircase, what we call the crew's staircase.
6333. Did you return to that same deck at all, or was it your last visit? - That was my last visit.
6334. And you told me you did not see water on that deck anywhere else? - Nowhere else.
6335. The only other thing is this. You say you saw men coming to close watertight doors; that is to say, those doors do not shut automatically? - That is right.
6336. Was that on E deck? - Yes, immediately outside my room.
6337. Watertight doors? - Yes.
6338. On E deck? - Yes.
6339. Was one aft of your room? - Immediately forward.
6340. Immediately forward of your room? - Yes.
6341. Then was it that watertight door, which you see on the plan is in the alleyway, which is in front of your room? - I am not sure, but I think it is No. 23 door.
6342. I do not know their numbers, but was it the one just forward of your room? - Yes, in the alleyway.
6343. And you actually saw them doing that? - Yes, they were working on it.
6344. You are quite right; it is No. 23 door? - We used to call it the skidoo door, on account of the number. That is how I remember the number.
6345. (The Commissioner.) I do not understand that? - It is an American joke.
6346. Will you explain it? - I could not explain it, my Lord.
6347. (The Solicitor-General.) At any rate it connects No. 23 with something about skidoo? - Yes.
6348. Did the men working at No. 23 door tell you they had got orders about it? - No, I did not speak to them.
6349. You do not know whether they were closing or had closed any other watertight doors? - No, I do not know.
6350. You spoke of seeing an interpreter in the third-class part of the ship trying to get the third-class people to come along and go up to the deck? - Yes.
6351. Did I catch you rightly to say the interpreter was doing it and men were helping him? - I could see two or three stewards.
6352. You could? - Yes.
6353. Third-class stewards? - I suppose they were, I am not quite sure.
6354. Trying to persuade the people? - Yes.
6355. And where was it these people that you saw were standing? - In the alleyway, just abaft the emergency door leading into the second-class.
6356. That is also on E deck? - Yes.
6357. Are the third-class cabins which are abaft of that also on the E deck? - There are some on E deck, and there are some on F deck below that.
6358. (Mr. Clement Edwards.) There is a question which I did not examine into, but which has arisen, if your Lordship will permit me. (To the Witness.) When you saw this water in your compartment did it lead you to any conclusion as to the special danger in which you thought the ship was? - No, not anything special. If it had been higher I should have thought something about it, but under the circumstances I thought it might have been a pipe burst, because there was a pipe burst on the "Olympic" from the engineers' quarters and we got the same water. It might have been the same thing.

The Commissioner: I think all the representatives of the different classes are here now, and I want to say that Mr. Laing, at the sitting of the Court this afternoon, mentioned that the White Star Company would place the "Olympic" on Monday at the disposal of the gentlemen who are here representing the different classes, so that if they choose to go and see her at 12 o'clock on that day they will be able to go over the steamer.
Mr. Edwards:. May I say, my Lord, on behalf of my friends, we appreciate this, but it would considerably help us, and in the end I think might help the Court, if passes were also provided for experts to accompany the counsel and representatives who are engaged in this case, not in the sense of experts who may be called as witnesses, but rather as experts who with their special knowledge may fortify the counsel on matters of technical importance.
The Commissioner: What do you say to that, Mr. Laing?
Mr. Laing: My clients do not think that is a reasonable request to make. Their invitation is to the gentlemen who are representing the parties, like ourselves.
The Commissioner: I think you must be satisfied with the ordinary order, which is to the gentlemen who represent the interests. I think that is sufficient.

Page 148

6359. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) There is one other thing. You may be able to tell us about the electric light in the afterpart of the ship. You have described how you heard the breaking of the metal, the rending of metal, followed by this rush of people to the poop. At the time when you heard the rending of metal, were the electric lights burning in the part of the ship you saw? - The electric lights were burning right to the very last. I saw the time by my watch at a quarter-past two.
6360. You looked at your watch? - Yes.
6361. You were carrying it? - Yes, I had it in this pocket I was transferring it from this pocket to my stern pocket.
6362. And you looked at it as you did it? - Yes.
6363. Were you holding on to the rail at the time? - No, I was getting towards the rail. It was a quarter-past two then.
6364. And the electric light was burning then? - Yes.
6365. So that there was never a time when you were on that ship when there was not electric light where you were? - Right to the very finish that I saw.
6366. (The Commissioner.) Your opinion is it was burning until the afterpart of the ship went down. Do you mean that? - Yes, I saw it.

(The Witness withdrew.)

The Solicitor-General: You will see, my Lord, now that Mr. Wilding has put on that model the mark which indicates the waterline, as best he can estimate it at this time.
The Commissioner: Yes, I see that.

SAMUEL JAMES RULE, Sworn.

Examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

6367. You were bathroom steward on board the "Titanic"? - Yes.
6368. Did you join her at Southampton? - Yes.
6369. As bathroom steward? - Yes.
6370. Did you hear anything at all about being in the neighbourhood of ice before the collision? - No.
6371. Where were you at the time of the collision? - In my bed.
6372. Were you asleep? - Yes.
6373. Would you help us to find out where you were from the plan? Where did you sleep? - On E deck.
6374. What part of E deck? - The afterpart. It is an eight-berthed room; eight people slept in it - the saloon steward, and the lounge steward, and deck steward -
6375. Was it starboard or port side? - Port side. It is next door to the chef's room.
6376. Was it forward or aft of the chef? - Forward, the same passage. The chef went past our door in that passage way.
6377. Who were the men who were with you in this berth? - At the time?
6378. Yes, what were they? Storekeepers? - No. The Linen Keeper, the Smoke Room Steward, the Deck Steward, the Lounge Steward, and the Second Bedroom Steward, and the Bathroom Steward, myself.
6379. Was there any other eight-berthed cabin close there? - No, the next one is twelve.
      The Attorney-General: Your Lordship will see where it is if you look just forward of the "Engine casing" on the port side. Your Lordship has the room where Joughin was. Forward of that there is the chef and forward of that again there is a berth and in front of that another one. "Twelve superior stewards." It is the one which has the eight in, and it is marked "One barkeeper, six storekeepers," and something else.
      The Commissioner: Are you sure it is there?
      The Attorney-General: It must be from what he says, because it is just abaft the twelve.
6380. (The Commissioner.) I can see the big berth a little further on. (To the Witness.) How many were there in yours? - Eight.
      The Attorney-General: That is why it fixes it, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: I see in the one I am looking at there are a great many more.
6381. (The Attorney-General.) This is the only eight one there. (To the Witness.) Were you asleep? - Yes.
6382. What woke you? - The stoppage of the engines.
6383. Did you feel any shock before that? - No.
6384. How many of you were there in the cabin at the time? - Three.
6385. All turned in? - Yes.
6386. Did you all wake together? - Yes, pretty well, I think. If they did not I woke them myself.
6387. Did you think that something was wrong? - I thought so when the ship stopped suddenly.
6388. Did you notice anything further with the engines? - Not until she went full speed astern.
6389. You did notice that? - I noticed that and the electric bells going in the fidley.
      The Commissioner: Does he say full speed astern?
6390. (The Attorney-General.) Yes, that is what he said. (To the Witness.) You noticed the engines had been reversed? - Yes.
6391. I am not sure whether it was after that or at the same time that you heard the electric bells go to close the watertight doors? - The same time.
6392. What did you do then? - I immediately got up and dressed and went on deck.
6393. Were there lifebelts in your cabin? - Yes.
6394. Provided for everyone? - Yes, eight.
6395. Eight lifebelts for eight people? - Yes.
6396. Did you take any with you when you went on the boat deck? - Not then I did not.
6397. You went on the boat deck? - I went right up the stairs on to the boat deck.
6398. Was there any sign of excitement or agitation on the boat deck? - None whatever.
6399. What did you do then? - I walked right along the boat deck right forward and passed in on to A deck and down the stairs to each deck.
6400. What do you mean by each deck? - A, B, C, D, and E.
6401. Till you got to your deck? - Yes, eventually, and I spoke to several of the stewards on watch and asked them what was the matter, and they thought everything was correct. There was no excitement anywhere. As I passed down on each deck I saw groups of people, but there was no panic and no excitement; you would have thought it was the closing up of the public rooms we met at every night. People were grouped round talking, and nothing more that I saw. I went right down through B and C deck down to D and E deck back through the saloon to the pantry, and I stopped talking to the watchman there, and I passed down to E deck again to my room.
6402. To your room? - To my own room, back again. As there was nothing doing and no excitement we thought everything was right.
6403. You thought everything was going to be all right? - Yes.
6404. Did you know you had struck an iceberg? - I heard.
6405. When you got on the boat deck? - Yes.
6406. But you did not think it was anything serious? - No, nobody thought so.
6407. Nobody thought so? - No.
6408. Then you went back to your cabin? - Yes.
6409. Did you go to bed again? - No I stood talking to my two mates that I had left behind, and advised them to get up and dress in case we should be wanted.
6410. You told us you passed along these decks. Did you see any passengers? - On each companionway, I did, in groups. I recognised some that I knew.

Page 149

6411. You have said there was no excitement. Did that apply as well to the passengers as to the stewards, the persons to whom you spoke? - Yes.
6412. What was the next thing that happened when you got back to your cabin? - I was there perhaps 10 or 15 minutes when the chief bedroom steward came down and said the order was, "All hands on deck for the lifeboats," and the bedroom stewards were to see the passengers out of their rooms with their lifebelts and lock the rooms up.
6413. Did you then go up to the boat deck? - Yes.
6414. Did you take your lifebelt? - Yes.
6415. Does that mean that each one took one lifebelt? - We each took our own.
6416. (The Commissioner.) When you say "we," you mean the three? - Yes.
6417. (The Attorney-General.) Did you notice any list in the vessel at that time? - Not at that time.
6418. Was there any water in your cabin - any sign of water coming into your cabin at all? - No.
6419. When you got up to the boat deck did you get any other order? - No, as I passed up the staircase, I got to A deck and I saw Mr. McElroy the purser, and Mr. Dodd, the Second Steward. I thought to receive some orders from them, but there were no orders given, and I passed on to the next deck, the boat deck. It was on A deck I saw them. They were in deep conversation.
6420. On the boat deck did you get any order? - No.
6421. Did you get any order about provisions for the boats? - No.
6422. What did you do next? - I went forward to No. 3; I went forward till I got to No. 3.
6423. Did you know your station? - Yes.
6424. Was No. 3 boat your station? - No, No. 15. We got the number as we passed up through the pantry from the boat list.
6425. I want to understand that. There was a boat list? - Yes.
6426. Had you seen that before this night? - Yes.
6427. Where was that? - In the saloon pantry.
6428. And did that tell you your station? - Yes.
6429. Was your station 15? - Yes.
6430. Then when you came up you did not go to boat 15, you went forward to boat 3? - Yes.
6431. Why was that? - Well, I just merely went forward to see what they were doing, and my curiosity took me forward to see if I could hear any more of the damage, and I got busy at No. 3.
6432. Was the vessel at all down by the head then? Did you notice? - Yes, slightly.
6433. Boat No. 3 was on the starboard side? - Yes, starboard side forward.
6434. It was the second boat? - The second boat.
6435. Next to the emergency boat? - Yes.
6436. When you got there were any passengers there? - Well, of course there were some passengers, and some of the crew getting her ready.
6437. Was she being uncovered? - Had she been uncovered at that time? - She was entirely uncovered, and ready for lowering almost.
6438. She was almost ready for lowering? - Yes.
6439. Were there any passengers in at that time? - There were some in it.
6440. Were they men or women in the boat? - Women.
6441. Any children? - I could not say; I was a good way off.
6442. Were there any men in the boat? - I think so.
6443. Could you tell whether they were crew or passengers? - Mostly passengers, that I saw.
6444. In the boat? - Yes. Mr. Ismay was seeing them into No. 3 boat.
6445. (The Attorney-General.) I think this is the first time we have had No. 3 boat, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Was any officer superintending? - Yes.
6446. Who? - I think it was Mr. Lowe; I am not sure. It was a junior officer. I do not know him.
6447. Was there any confusion? - No.
6448. Everything was going on quietly and regularly? - Yes.
6449. Were the boats lowered from the boat deck to the A deck? - No, they took their passengers on from the boat deck.
6450. I said the boats. Did you see the No. 1 boat? - No. 1 would be in the water at that time.
6451. That was the emergency boat? - Because I heard an order given: "Stand off from the ship's side and come to when we call you." That was when No. 1 boat was in the water.
6452. I should like to get that clear. No. 1 boat was the emergency boat; the forward boat on the starboard side of the ship? - Yes.
6453. It was the boat in which Hendrickson was, the last witness yesterday, my Lord. (To the Witness.) I want you to repeat the order you heard given about that boat? - "Stand off from the ship's side and return when we call you."
6454. "Stand off from the ship's side and return when we call you"? - Yes.
6455. To whom was that order addressed? - To the people in the boat, I presume.
6456. To the people in No. 1 boat. Could you see how many there were in that boat at the time? - No.
      The Attorney-General: It was the one with seven of the crew and five passengers in, your Lordship will remember.
6457. (The Commissioner.) The emergency boat was in the water when you were at No. 3 boat? - Yes.
6458. And this emergency boat had been dropped from the forward end on the starboard side? - Yes.
6459. And someone, I do not know who, gave directions to this boat to stand off from the ship's side and come back when called? - Yes.
6460. Who gave that order? - I could not say - some officer.
6461. (The Attorney-General.) Had you heard any other orders given to that No. 1 boat? - No.
6462. At this time, from what you have said, Mr. Ismay was standing close? - Yes, he was helping to get No. 3 out.
6463. Helping to get No. 3 boat out? - Yes.
      The Attorney-General: Your Lordship will remember this order. It is on page 119, question 5011. Hendrickson's answer is practically to the same effect. The words are, "He was told to stand off a little way and come back when called."
      The Commissioner: Yes, it is to the same effect.
6464. (The Attorney-General - To the Witness.) Was Mr. Ismay dressed at this time? - No, he had his slippers and a light overcoat on and no hat.
6465. Slippers, light overcoat and no hat? - Yes.
6466. You said he was helping. What was he doing? - He was just the same as any of the crew; he was doing all he could to assist to get the boats out.
6467. You saw passengers get in. Did you hear any refuse to get in? - No.
6468. Can you give us any idea how many people there were in this boat No. 3 before she was lowered? - No, I could not give you that, because I was a good way from her at the stern of the boat.
6469. You were at the stern? - Yes, at the fall.
6470. Did you see this boat lowered at all to A deck? - No, I think she went right into the water.
6471. (The Commissioner.) This is No. 3? - Yes; she could not take her passengers on at A deck.
6472. (The Attorney-General.) She could not? - No.
6473. That was because of the windows, I suppose? - Yes, closed in.
6474. What did you do after you saw this boat lowered? - I assisted in the next one.
6475. Which was that? - No. 5. They passed the cover down and I threw it on one side clear of the falls. Then I met some of the pantrymen coming up with provisions for the boat, and I placed all the provisions round to pretty well each boat on the deck.
6476. What do you mean by provisions? What provisions? - A box of biscuits and some bread.
6477. A box of biscuits and some bread, do you mean, to each boat? - Yes.
6478. Did you stay with No. 5 until she was lowered? - No, I went on with the bread and the biscuits.
6479. After helping No. 5 you then went further aft. Did you go to the next boat? - No, I distributed the bread all round - the biscuits and bread to each boat.

Page 150

6480. Had any of the boats been lowered on the starboard side by the time you got on to the boat deck? - No.
6481. They were all there. Then did you go along to each boat distributing provisions? - Yes.
6482. (The Commissioner.) Does this apply only to the starboard side or to the port side as well? - Only to the starboard; I never crossed to port.
6483. Does that mean that you distributed biscuits and bread to each one of the boats on the starboard side? - Yes, pretty well.
6484. (The Attorney-General.) If I follow the story it must be from No. 5, because No. 1 was already in the water? - Yes, No. 3 was down.
6485. But when you got to No. 5 you started? - Yes, I met the pantry men coming along with a case of biscuits and some bread. There were some five or six men came along.
6486. Is it your view that No. 1, the first boat on the starboard side, was in the water before any of the other boats were lowered? - Yes, on the starboard side.
6487. You got eventually to your boat, the aftermost boat on the starboard side? - Yes.
6488. That is No. 15? - Yes.
6489. Was she uncovered when you got to her? - Yes.
6490. What did you do? - The time I got there Mr. Murdoch had given orders to see the plug and rudder shipped and the tiller shipped, and everything ready, and then to call the men together into the boat.
6491. Mr. Murdoch was in charge then? - Yes.
6492. He was the officer superintending? - Yes.
6493. You say he called to the men to get into the boat. Will you tell us as nearly as you can what it was he said? - He said: "Some of you get into the boat." About six went in and he said: "That will do; no more; lower away to A deck and receive any women and children there are."
6494. "Lower away to A deck"? - Yes.
6495. Did you then go down to A deck? - I went along down the stairs to the boat and met her at A deck.
6496. Before she was lowered to A deck had she taken any passengers at all? - No, there were no passengers there.
6497. When you got to A deck was there an officer there? - There was someone in charge; I do not know who it was.
6498. Did you hear him give any orders? - To get all the women and children into the boat that we could find.
6499. Were there any passengers standing round on A deck at this time at the place where the boat was lowered to? - Yes, there were some.
6500. Women and children? - There were four or five women and children; four women and about three children.
6501. At this time had you noticed whether the vessel had any list? - Slightly.
6502. A list to which side? - To port.
6503. Can you give us any idea when it was you first noticed the list to port? - No, not particularly; not until I got down into the boat. I found she was pretty well up against the ship's side. I did not notice particularly in getting the other boats out that she had a list.
6504. You mean not until you got to your own boat? - Not till I got down to A deck.
6505. You did not notice it particularly, at any rate, until then? - No.
6506. Did you get those four women and three children into the boat? - Yes.
6507. Were there any more? - No, they sent scouts around and shouted out for any more women and children and waited quite a while, but there were no more women and children to be found.
6508. Then when she got these four women and three children there was plenty of room still in the boat? - Yes.
6509. Did you try to find any more women and children? - Yes.
6510. What did you do? - They sent scouts all round the port side and the starboard side looking for them.
6511. You say you sent scouts; have you any idea how many men went? - Three or four.
6512. Did you yourself go? - No, I was on the rail, passing the women and children on board.
6513. Did these men come back who had been out looking for the women and children? - Yes.
6514. How long after? - Three or four minutes - four or five minutes.
6515. Three or four or five minutes after they had started to look for the women and children? - Yes. They went on the port side. There was no one to be seen on the starboard side, the side we were on.
6516. No one at all? - No, only those who were round the boat.
6517. Do you mean no one at all, or no women and children? - No one at all, no women and children. I did not encounter anyone until I came downstairs; the deck was perfectly clear.
6518. Then did they find any women and children? - Only these three or four.
6519. We have heard of those - I mean after they went to look for them? - No.
6520. When they came back, what did they say? - There were no more.
6521. (The Commissioner.) They said there were no more? - No more on the deck.
6522. Does that mean no more women and children? - Yes.
6523. (The Attorney-General.) When there were no more women and children, what orders were given to you? - Mr. Murdoch said, "Fill the boat up; take in what you have got there, and lower away."
6524. "Take in what you have got there." What do you mean by that? Those already in the boat? - No, whoever was at the ship's side.
6525. Was she lowered to any other deck before she was lowered to the water? - No, she filled up from A deck.
6526. (The Attorney-General.) That does not quite agree with Cavell's story at page 108, question 4334. It is said that after you had taken passengers in at A deck the boat was then lowered to the 3rd class. Your Lordship will remember he pointed out on the model. (To the Witness.) Is that right? - She could not take anyone in below A deck.
6527. Which are you referring to as A deck? - The deck below the boat deck.
6528. The deck immediately below the boat deck? - Yes.
6529. Have you any idea how many got into the boat altogether? - Sixty-eight.
6530. Is that including passengers and crew? - Yes.
6531. That is all told? - Yes.
6532. From first to last? - Yes.
6533. Could you get any more into the boat? - No.
6534. Were there any other boats left besides yours? - No, that was the last in the davits.
6535. Then yours was the last boat to leave on the starboard side? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: That is No. 15.
      The Attorney-General: Yes my Lord.
      The Witness: 11 and 13 were in the water; we very nearly got on top of 13 lowering down.
6536. (The Attorney-General.) Yes, I am going to ask you about that in a moment. Did you leave any people standing on the deck when the boat was lowered? - Yes, there were some left behind.
6537. Was there any attempt on the part of those to get into the boat? - There was a bit of a rush at the last when they said "lower away."
6538. (The Commissioner.) What were these people left behind? Were they men or women or what? - All men.
6539. (The Attorney-General.) Can you give us any idea of how many of the 68 who went into this boat No. 15 were women, and how many were men? - Four or five women and three children.
6540. And all the rest men? - Yes.
6541. That is about 61 men? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: This seems quite contrary to the other evidence.
      The Attorney-General: Yes, my Lord.
6542. (The Commissioner.) Now I want to be clear about this. Are you now talking about boat No. 15? - Yes.

Page 151

6543. And where was it? Show it to me on that model? - (The Witness pointed out the place on the model.)
6544. (The Attorney-General.) There is no doubt about that, my Lord. Will your Lordship allow me to put one question to him to make it clear he is speaking of the same boat, No. 15. (To the Witness.) When No. 15 was lowered did you very nearly swamp another boat? - Yes, No. 13.
6545. You very nearly came on top of No. 13? - Yes.
6546. (The Commissioner.) How long were you at No. 15 boat? - When?
6547. When the passengers or whoever they were were going on board, how long were you there? - 10 minutes possibly - 10 or 15 minutes.
6548. How many people got on in 10 or 15 minutes? - We were about 10 or 15 minutes there before we started to take on anybody at all - when they were looking for the women and children.
6549. As I understand, first of all you got on a small number? - Yes.
6550. And then you sent out what you call three or four scouts? - Yes.
6551. And they came back and said there were no women or children to be found? - Yes.
6552. Then did men begin to go on board the boat? - Not until Mr. Murdoch gave the orders from above.
6553. And what order was it he gave? - He said, "There are no more women and children; fill your boat up and lower away."
6554. (The Attorney-General.) Could you tell whether the women who were on board were first-class or second-class or third-class passengers? - I think they were third.
6555. Who, the men? - The women.
      The Attorney-General: I am asking now about the four women he said he put on. Why do you say that? - Well, I could not swear.
6556. What makes you think it? I want you to tell the Court what your reason is? - I fancy from the way they were dressed. In fact, I know one was, because she told me on the "Carpathia" that she had lost her husband.
6557. Could you tell whether there were any Irish women amongst them? - No.
6558. You could not tell? - No, because they were all in the middle of the boat and I was in the bows of the boat.
      The Commissioner: I do not know how this witness Cavell can have made a mistake.
      The Attorney-General: No, if your Lordship looks at page 109 -
      The Commissioner: I am looking at it now.
      The Attorney-General: It is very difficult to understand.
      The Commissioner: He is being examined by the Solicitor-General, and this is what he says: "(4353) And then you are lowered to the lower deck, and you take in, you think, about 60? - (A.) Yes. That would make about 70" - that would be the 60 and the seven, you know? - "(A.) Yes. (Q.) Do you say that you took in everybody who came at that time at the lower deck? - (A.) Yes."
      The Attorney-General: He corrected that later.
      The Commissioner: "You left nobody behind? - (A.) No, Sir;" and therefore he affirms that there were none but women and children, and he denies that any were men.
      The Attorney-General: If your Lordship looks at Question 4369, that puts it specifically.
      The Commissioner: "(Q.) You think that the 60 women you took were all third-class passengers? - (A.) Yes, my Lord."
      The Solicitor-General: Of course, the deck he is speaking of is, undoubtedly, a second-class deck."
      The Attorney-General: Will you read on?
      The Commissioner: "(The Solicitor-General.) That was your impression, was it? - Yes. (Q.) These women that you think came from the third-class, were some of them foreigners? - (A.) They were Irish girls. (Q.) It is a nice question, whether they are foreigners or not. Then your boat, I suppose, was as full as it would hold, was it? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) Who took charge of it? - (A.) One of the firemen. (Q.) What is his name? - (A.) Diamond [Dymond]. (Q.) Then there was you, and were there only three others of the crew? - (A.) Four. (Q.) Four others? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) Diamond and yourself, and four others. (A.) Three more." Then it goes on to another point.
      The Attorney-General: Yes, it is very definite.
      The Commissioner: Mr. Attorney, are you in a position to call evidence from the "Carpathia"?
      The Attorney-General: I expect we shall be. I am not at present, but we shall be.
      The Commissioner: Because one would hope that the "Carpathia" could give us some information as to what the people were who got out of this boat.
6559. (The Attorney-General.) Yes, we may be able to, but I am not very sanguine about that; but we will try. I am much obliged to your Lordship for the suggestion. We will see whether it can be done. (To the Witness.) Can you give me a little more information about those persons?
      The Commissioner: I wish you would press him a little on the point.
6560. (The Attorney-General.) I am going to, my Lord. (To the Witness.) If you leave out the four women and the three children of whom you have spoken - I am not going to ask you anything more for the moment about those you picked up on the boat deck - are you quite sure that all the rest of the passengers who got in were men? - Yes.
6561. Quite certain of that? - Yes.
6562. You were helping to pass them into the boat? - Yes.
6563. So that if your memory is correct, you could not be mistaken about it? - No.
6564. (The Commissioner.) Do you know Cavell? - No.
6565. Have not you seen him here? - I could not say.
6566. (The Attorney-General.) We saw him, he was a very short man, boyish looking. Do you remember? - No.
6567. You do not know him at all? - No.
6568. Could you tell at all whether these passengers, the men who got in were first, second, or third-class passengers? - They were third-class.
6569. Third-class? - Third and second.
6570. Why do you say that? What makes you think they were third and second? - I was in conversation with them on the boat.
6571. And they told you? - Yes, in fact a second-class passenger pulled an oar with me during the night; he told me he was a second-class passenger.
6572. Did you talk to many of the passengers in the boat? - No, only just those immediately around me.
6573. Those who were just around you when you were in her? - Yes. I was in the bows of the boat.
6574. Is this a matter about which you are quite clear in your mind, and about which you cannot be making any mistake as to the number of women that were in that boat? - Quite right.
6575. It struck you as rather odd, did it not, that after the order that was given, "Women and children in the boats," that you should have so many men? - Well, they were pretty well all cleared off that deck.
6576. Did you think when the vessel left that there were no more women on board? - No.
6577. Well, you knew there were some women left? - Well, I should imagine so.
6578. But you knew that the order was that the women were to go into the boat first and this was the last boat? - Yes.
6579. On the starboard side that is - we are speaking altogether of the starboard side? - Yes.
6580. (The Commissioner.) If these were all practically men, did it not strike you that you were not doing what you ought to do? You were not taking the women first. Did not that occur to you? - Well, of course, we took all the women who were there. We could not find any more.
6581. You took all the women that were on that deck opposite to that boat, but you knew that there were hundreds elsewhere. You knew that, I suppose? - Well, I imagined there would be some more.

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6582. (The Attorney-General.) Why did not you go to look for them? - Well, because there were other people looking for them.
6583. But not at the time the men were being passed into the boat? - Yes, they were shouting out round the decks.
6584. Do you mean that when the scouts who went round that you have told us about, whilst the scouts were away, the men were getting into the boat? - No, not till the men came back.
6585. When the men came back and said there were no women? - No, Mr. Murdoch said, "Fill your boat up with what you have got there - men."
6586. After that did anybody go to look for women? - No.
6587. Was there a rush to get into this boat? - No, not particularly.
6588. "Not particularly" means there was some rush? - Well, there was a bit of a rush at the last, yes.
6589. Did the men seem anxious to get into the boat? - Yes.
6590. Pushing forward to get into the boat? - They all seemed anxious to get in.
6591. Alarmed because it was the last boat on that side? - Well, I do not know; I could not say whether they were alarmed.
6592. It looked like it, did it not? - Yes.
6593. Was the vessel then very much down by the head? - Yes, she was.
6594. Was she well listed over to port? - Yes, she had a slight list to port.
6595. Do you know a man called Diamond [Dymond]? - No.
6596. Do you know who took charge of the boat? - A man called Jack Stewart.
6597. What was he? - A steward; he was a steward called Stewart.
6598. A man who was a steward, whose name was Jack Stewart? - Yes.
6599. (The Commissioner.) He is alive? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: Who is he?
6600. (The Attorney-General.) This is the first we have heard of him, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Who rowed? - Nearly everybody rowed who could get to the oars. I rowed for one.
6601. (The Commissioner.) You do not mean to tell me 60 or 70 people rowed? - No, everybody who could get to the oars. It was difficult.
6602. I thought you said nearly everybody? - Well, pretty well; they took turns.
6603. (The Attorney-General.) When this boat No. 15 was lowered what did you do? Did you go and lie off? - Yes.
6604. Did you wait? - Yes, we waited off.
6605. Could you see people on board? - No.
6606. How far off did you go? - About 500 or 600 yards.
6607. Could you see the lights of the vessel? - Yes.
6608. Her electric lights? - Yes.
6609. Did you see her go down? - Well, yes, I saw her.
6610. Were her electric lights burning to the end - to the last? - Very near to the last.
6611. Did you see her actually founder? - I did not see her actually go down at the last.
6612. After she went down, did you hear cries? - Yes.
6613. Before she went down did you see a number of people in the stern of the vessel, on the poop? - No.
6614. When you heard the cries, did you make any attempt to reach them? - We pulled back and pulled round.
6615. Did you? - Yes.
6616. Did you get near anybody - No, we never saw anyone.
6617. Did you try to reach anybody? - We pulled around the district, around the ship.
6618. (The Commissioner.) Your boat was nearly full? - Yes, we could not take many more. It was down in the water as it was.
6619. (The Attorney-General.) Supposing you had got to anybody, could you have taken them on board your boat? - Yes, we might have got them in, but there was not much room for anybody there.
6620. What? - There was not much room to pick up anybody.
6621. Was your boat far down in the water? - Yes, right to the gunwales.
6622. Did you see anybody on the deck or on the ship without a lifebelt? - No.
6623. Do you mean everybody had one? - Everybody I saw had one on.
6624. A lifebelt? - Yes.
6625. Can you give me the names of any one of the men who went to look for women and children? - I could not.
6626. Did you know any of them? - No.
6627. (The Commissioner.) Did those men get into the boat? - That I could not say.
6628. (The Attorney-General.) Did you see at all in what direction they went to look for the women and children? - They went round the deck on the port side on A deck.
6629. On the same deck? - Yes.
6630. Did they go to any other deck? - I do not think so.
6631. Why not? - That I could not say. I could not tell you why they did not.
6632. Then apparently, if I understand you, all that they did was to go round to the port side of the A deck and see whether there were any women and children there? - They went on both sides of A deck.
6633. On both sides of A deck? - Yes.
6634. Do you mean along the deck? - Yes.
6635. (The Commissioner.) Do you think they went not to find them? - No, they shouted pretty well all round.
6636. They were shouting, were they? - Yes.
6637. What were they shouting? - "Any more women and children for the boat."
6638. Were they shouting properly so that they could be heard? - So that anybody could hear them on the next deck.
6639. You heard them yourself? - Yes.
6640. And they could have been heard on the next deck? - Everywhere.
6641. (The Attorney-General.) Did you see any stewards or any men helping the women from the second-class deck on to A deck? - No.
6642. Have you seen Jack Stewart since you were in the boat with him which eventually was picked up by the "Carpathia"? - Not since I left Southampton.
6643. Did you mean since you left Southampton to come here? - Yes.
6644. (The Commissioner.) Then when did you see him in Southampton? - Last Tuesday week.
      The Commissioner: You ought to know where this man is, Mr. Attorney.
      The Attorney-General: Oh, I know, my Lord. All I said was, this is the first we have heard of him in this case, but, we know, and your Lordship shall see him, and Diamond [Dymond] also.
      The Commissioner: He may help to clear this up.
      The Attorney-General: Yes, it has to be cleared up.
      The Commissioner: I am in a difficulty about this boat at present. Is Cavell gone?
      The Attorney-General: I am afraid he has, but we can have him back.
      The Commissioner: I wish you would keep him in sight so that we can see him again if necessary.
6645. (The Attorney-General.) Yes, my Lord. He was one of those who were released yesterday. We will take care to get him again. (To the Witness.) Do you know a man named Noss? - No.
6646. Or Clark? - No.
6647. In the boat with you as part of the crew? - No.
6648. Did you hear the officer shout out, "Stand back; women first" when the rush came? - No.
6649. I will put this story to you. Your Lordship will see I must call the witness later. "As we were being lowered several of the foreign passenger men rushed for the boat." That is what this witness says. That is right, is it not? - Yes.
6650. And did the officer shout out when the rush was made, "Stand back; women first." - I did not hear him.

Page 153

6651. Well, he must have shouted out something, must he not? - I did not hear him shout it.
6652. Did you hear him give any order? - No.
6653. Not when the rush was made for the boat? - Not after Mr. Murdoch said "Fill the boat up." I never heard any order after that.
6654. I am going to put it to you that you are making a mistake as to the time, if you will follow what I am going to suggest to you. I am putting to you that what really happened was that the rush that was made for the boat of which you have spoken was before Mr. Murdoch's order. Let me put to you the story. Just follow this: that there was a rush of a number of passengers for the boat, and Mr. Murdoch then shouted out "Stand back! Women first!" that you then proceeded to take in all the women and children that were there? - That is correct.
6655. That is correct? - Yes.
6656. That is what I put to you before, you know. Then there was a rush made for the boat before the officer called out "Stand back! Women first!"? - Yes.
6657. And then where was that that the rush was made? - When she came down to A deck.
6658. And then did you take in women and children? - Yes.
6659. How many? - What I told you before.
6660. The four and the three? - Yes. That is the only deck we took them in.
6661. I must put to you that you took in at that deck 22 women and children. Is that right? - No.
6662. Was it after that that Mr. Murdoch called out, "Is that boat full?" - Yes.
6663. Did you hear persons shouting out at the side of the boat whether there were any more women? - Yes.
6664. I mean not only the scouts who were sent to look for the women? - The man who was in charge on the deck was shouting out at the same time.
6665. Do you mean near the boat? - No, on the deck. The man that was looking after the deck, the officer - I do not know who he was - was shouting if there were any more women.
6666. Did you hear any reply made to that? - No.
6667. Did you hear anyone say to the officer: "There are no more women and children to be seen"? - Yes.
6668. You heard that? - I heard that.
6669. And what did he say then? - To fill up the boat.
      The Attorney-General: This is a question really of numbers, my Lord. I cannot say anything further about it, as I have only got the depositions at present. Your Lordship will have to see the witnesses.

(The Witness withdrew.)

Sir Robert Finlay: My Lord, with regard to the question of experts which has been mentioned, we should have no objection whatever if the other gentlemen engaged in the case can agree upon an expert to go with them; we should not object to that in the very least, but we do not think there ought to be an indefinite multiplication of experts.

The Commissioner: Then if you gentlemen can put your heads together, and agree upon one expert to go with you, the White Star Company will be glad that you should have him with you. Find an expert in whom you all have confidence, and let him go with you to show you.

(Adjourned till Tuesday next at 10.30 o'clock.)