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Wreck Commissioners' Court.

SCOTTISH HALL,

BUCKINGHAM GATE,

Thursday, 9th May, 1912.

PROCEEDINGS

WIITH

THE RIGHT HON. LORD MERSEY,

Wreck Commissioner of the United Kingdom,

WITH

REAR ADMIRAL THE HON. S. A. GOUGH-CALTHORPE, C.V.O., R.N.,

CAPTAIN A. W. CLARKE,

COMMANDER F. C. A. LYON, R.N.R.,

PROFESSOR J. H. BILES, LL.D., D.Sc.,

MR. E. C. CHASTON, R.N.R.

Acting as Assessors.

ON A FORMAL INVESTIGATION

ORDERED BY THE BOARD OF TRADE INTO THE

LOSS OF THE S. S. "TITANIC."

FIFTH DAY.

THE RIGHT HON. SIR RUFUS ISAACS, K.C., M.P. (Attorney-General), SIR JOHN SIMON, K.C., M.P. (Solicitor-General), MR. BUTLER ASPINAL, K.C., MR. S. A. T. ROWLATT and MR. RAYMOND ASQUITH (instructed by SIR R. ELLIS CUNLIFFE, Solicitor to the Board of Trade) appeared as Counsel on behalf of the Board of Trade.

THE RIGHT HON. SIR ROBERT FINLAY, K.C., M.P., MR. P. LAING, K.C., MR. MAURICE HILL., K.C., and MR. NORMAN RAEBURN (instructed by Messrs. Hill, Dickinson and Co.), appeared as counsel on behalf of the White Star line.

MR. THOMAS SCANLAN, M.P. (instructed by Mr. Smith, Solicitor), appeared as Counsel on behalf of the National Sailors' and Firemen's Union of Great Britain and Ireland and of the personal representatives of several deceased members of the crew and of survivors who were members of the Union. (Admitted On application.)

MR. B0TTERELL (instructed by Messrs. Botterell and Roche) appeared on behalf of the Chamber of Shipping of the United Kingdom. (Admitted on application.)

MR. THOMAS LEWIS appeared on behalf of the British Seafarers' Union. (Admitted on application.)

MR. L. S. HOLMES (of Messrs. Miller, Taylor and Holmes, of Liverpool) appeared on behalf of the Imperial Merchant Service Guild. (Admitted on application.)

MR. COTTER appeared on behalf of the National Union of Stewards. (Admitted on application.)

MR. HAMAR GREENWOOD, M.P. (instructed by Messrs. Pritchard and Sons), watched proceedings on behalf of the Allan Line Steamship Company.

MR. HAMAR GREENWOOD, M.P. (instructed by Messrs. William A. Crump and Son), watched proceedings for the Canadian Pacific Railway Company.

MR. ROCHE (instructed by Messrs. Charles G. Bradshaw and Waterson) appeared on behalf of the Marine Engineers' Association. (Admitted on application.)

MR. A. CLEMENT EDWARDS. M.P., (instructed by Messrs. Helder, Roberts and Co.), appeared as Counsel on behalf of the Dock, Wharf, Riverside, and General Workers Union of Great Britain and Ireland. (Admitted on application.)

MR. W. D. HARBINSON (instructed by Mr. Farrell) appeared on behalf of the third-class passengers. (Admitted on application.)

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The Attorney-General: With reference to the Witnesses who have been called, I do not propose to keep them unless your Lordship thinks it desirable. If there is any special Witness whom my friend wishes kept, of course we shall have to make arrangements to keep him, but it is very inconvenient and expensive to keep a lot of Witnesses who have already given their testimony, and I should have thought it was very much better to let them go.
Sir Robert Finlay: So far as I am concerned there are no Witnesses that have yet been called that I should desire to be kept.
The Commissioner: Then I think the better plan will be to assume that no one desires a Witness to be kept unless he asks for it.
Sir Robert Finlay: Yes, my Lord. If any occasion arises in the future, I will notify the Attorney-General.

JAMES JOHNSON, Recalled.

Further examined by Mr. ROWLATT.

Now, Mr. Johnson, you told us you rowed away and came back again. Did you see the "Titanic" sink? - I saw her go down.
How far off were you from her then in your boat? - It might have been three-quarters of a mile, or it might have been a little bit less.
Did you row back at all towards the wreck? - Well, the boatswain told us to keep a star and keep looking at this star and not to lose it, and keep within the vicinity of it.
Keep within the vicinity of what? - Of the star, underneath it rather.
Did you go back towards the wreck at all? - Well, we might have pulled a little bit back. When we were all quiet he said, "Listen," and what we heard was the swish of the water against another iceberg.
What I want to get at is this. You saw the ship go down? - Certainly.
You knew in what direction that was? - Yes.
Now did you try to row back in that direction with your boat? - No; we stood off.
Three-quarters of a mile away? - Very near it, I think.
At that time was your boat full? - No; I told you yesterday it was not full.
Was there any suggestion by anybody that you should go back in the boat? - Yes; the officer asked a question as to going back, but at that time we were just close to an iceberg, and the ladies said, "No," I think; they thought it was dangerous.
Did anything more pass in the boat - a conversation about going back, that you heard? - I was not listening. I was told by the officer to listen, and I heard the swish of the water, and when we looked there was an iceberg right in front of us.
You saw it? - Certainly; we were close to it.
Did you hear any cries of people in distress? - Oh, yes, too many.
You did? - Certainly.
Did you recognise from your boat in which direction those cries came? - From the left-hand side where we were; we had pulled round astern and were on the left-hand side.
Was anything said in the boat about the cries? - Certainly, there were lots of remarks by the ladies. They said they were sorry and everything.
But with reference to going back? - The only thing I heard was he asked them; should we go back, and I heard the ladies distinctly say no.
(The Commissioner.) I do not understand what you mean by your left-hand side? - The "Titanic" - after we pulled round astern, we had left the port side and we came to the starboard side of her. After we went after the light we came right round astern to the left-hand side. You might say we were still on the port - my left hand was still on the port side of our boat. I mean the "Titanic," you know.
Then the cries that you heard? - You heard them every now and again.
They came from the direction - ? - Of the left hand.
Of the "Titanic"? - Yes.
(Mr. Rowlatt.) At this time how many oars were being used on your boat? - Well, I know two were pulling strong - two of us.
And two, you told us yesterday, were pulling easy? - Yes.
1. There were two good oars on your boat? - Yes.
How did your boat travel through the water? - Easy, Sir.
I think you said yesterday that you think you had rowed a mile and a half away and back again? - Certainly.
I may take it the boat could have gone back towards the wreck, if it had been decided to do so? - Yes, we had the only lights.
What did you say? - We had a light in the boat; all the rest of the boats followed us; we had flashlights in our boat.
You had flashlights? - Yes, Roman candles.
What did you do then, did you lie on your oars or row, or do what after it was all over, you know? - We did not row, we kept round the vicinity of the boat; we never rowed after we came round astern; we lay still and the officer told us to keep our eye on this star.
(The Commissioner.) I have taken that down - "We tried to keep stationary"? - That is right, Sir.
(Mr. Rowlatt.) Were there other boats near you? - We did not see one; we heard a whistle, but I do not know where the boat was.
In time I suppose it got light, did it? - No. I think we were the first boat in the "Carpathia."
Were you picked up before it was light? - No, it was just dawn. We thought we saw an illumination of a boat coming; it was the Northern Lights.
You did see the "Carpathia" ultimately? - Yes.
It was still dark then, was it? - When we saw it, it was a little bit dark.
(The Commissioner.) It was at dawn that the "Carpathia" picked you up? - At dawn, yes.
(Mr. Rowlatt.) Did you signal to her with your candles, or was it too light? - I think all the boats followed us, because the officer must have burned about eight or nine.
Did you signal to the "Carpathia" with your candles, or how did you attract attention? - With a lamp. The officer put his hat in front of the lamp, and held it up (demonstrating).
The next morning did you see any icebergs or ice? - Yes, there were fields of it.
(The Commissioner.) Was the "Carpathia" in the ice-field? - It could not have been 200 yards off some of the ice.
Then they were off the edge of the ice? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

When you sighted the "Carpathia" was she going slow? - I could not tell you that.
Do you know if there was a compass on this lifeboat you were on? - I know there was a lamp, and we had roman candles.
But you do not know whether there was a compass? - I never looked.
Were the lady passengers frightened? - They were quite satisfied, and they lay still.

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At the time your boat was lowered, had the "Titanic" begun to sink? - Yes.
Had she sunk much? - Yes, she was right down by the bridge when we lowered our boat.
Did you realise when you got into the boat that the condition of the "Titanic" was very dangerous? - No, I do not think we thought about that.
You yourself, I mean? - I did not; I did not think so, in my own private opinion. I do not think any of us thought that.
You had had an interview with Mr. Andrews? - I had no interview; I only saw him.
Did he not tell you, as the result of his inspection? - No, Mr. Andrews did not speak to me. I said I sent a man down that was getting hot water, not Mr. Andrews. I followed Mr. Andrews, he never spoke to me.
I think you said you were present when he said something re-assuring to a few ladies? - Well, I thought so at the time too.
And you then had a word with him? - He told me to see that the ladies were quiet, or something to that effect, at the foot of the companion.
But he did not tell you anything? - He did not.
Is it your evidence that instead of the fourth officer, who was in charge of your boat, deciding for himself as to whether it was possible for him to go and rescue the people from whom he heard shrieks, he consulted the lady passengers on the boat? - He asked the lady passengers.
There would have been no difficulty at that time in your rowing round to the place from which you heard the shrieks? - Question?
What was the difficulty, if there was any? - She is not a big one, she is a dinghy.
You had only 23 people, and you have told my Lord that the boat's capacity was 40 people? - I did not say so; I did not know the capacity.
The Commissioner: I took it down. I may have been wrong, or possibly someone else told me. "The boat is constructed for 40." I may have taken it from the Attorney-General.
Mr. Scanlan: Yes, the cubic capacity is 40 persons.
The Attorney-General: What did your Lordship say you took from me?
The Commissioner: I have down in my note in this Witness' evidence that the boat was constructed to carry 40.
The Attorney-General: That is right.
The Commissioner: He says he did not say so.
The Attorney-General: That is quite right; I said so.
The Commissioner: And he did not know it, and I was saying I possibly took the information from you.
The Attorney-General: Your Lordship did.
(Mr. Scanlan.) It is so down in the official note. (To the Witness.) Do you know yourself how many additional people you could have accommodated in your boat? - I have no idea - they might have crammed in.
For the benefit of the Court, give us the best of your belief? - I think if they had got five or six more in it would have been quite enough to pull, and if it had been heavy weather I do not suppose there would be anybody here to tell the tale.
In the weather conditions which you had, I take it to be your view that you could at all events have accommodated five or six more? - Certainly.
In that calm sea, when you heard the shrieks of people struggling in the water, how far were you from them? - Half a mile to three quarters, I should think.
I thought when you rowed back, after rowing for a mile and a half, you came quite close to the "Titanic"? - We came round astern.
Was it not just in the immediate vicinity of the "Titanic" that people were struggling in the water? - We did not see anybody struggling where we were.
Were the crew of your boat rowing quite easily? - Two of us were rowing very easy.
I noted you said when you rowed this mile and a half each way you did it remarkably quickly? - Well, I think we could do it again.
Is it fair to assume that if the officer had given instructions on his own account, on his own responsibility, instead of consulting frightened passengers? - They were not frightened.
You might have got back in a short time to the people struggling in the water? - I do not think they were frightened.
But they advised him not to go to the rescue of those people? - I think that was their answer. And he acted on their advice, instead of on his own responsibility.
The Commissioner: I understand, Mr. Scanlan, that they were in fear of some iceberg.
(Mr. Scanlan.) What distance from you was the iceberg that you were in fear of? - I think as to the one we saw we could hear the water swish up against it. We could not have been very far from it. We could not have been far because everyone distinctly heard it.
The Commissioner: I wish you would put your questions to him quite plainly and distinctly, if you will. Was he of opinion that there was any cowardice on the part of the man who accepted the suggestion of the ladies, because that is, as I understand, what you are suggesting.
(Mr. Scanlan.) If I may say so with deference, my Lord, do not wish to suggest cowardice. What I do feel inclined to suggest is that there was a great lack of discretion on the part of the officer in charge of a boat which could be rowed easily, in not rowing to the rescue of those people. I would not like to say it was cowardice, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Can you explain why it was, with an unfilled boat, the fourth officer failed to go to the rescue of the drowning people? - I have answered the question.
It was because the ladies protested? - Yes. I have answered that question.
If you had had charge of the boat, would you have gone back? - I do not suppose I would have done any more than he did. He acted as an Englishman.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

Just one question. Have you any notion as to which class the majority of passengers in your boat belonged? - I think they belonged mostly to the third or second. I could not recognise them when I saw them in the first-class, and I should have known them if there were any prominent people.
Most of them were in the boat when you came along? - No.
You put them in? - No. Mr. Ismay tried to walk round and get a lot of women to come to our boat. He took them across to the starboard side then - our boat was standing - I stood by my boat a good ten minutes or a quarter of an hour.
At that time did the women display a disinclination to enter the boat? - Yes.
Do you know as a matter of fact if reassuring statements had been made to them that everything was all right? - I could not tell you. I could not tell you all those people.
Did you say as a matter of fact yesterday that you heard Mr. Andrews say to some ladies he thought it would be all right? - I think he did not know the full strength of it.
You mean he did not know how dangerous it was? - Certainly not; he could not have known.
(The Commissioner.) I understand you to say that when you got into the boat you did not think the condition of the "Titanic" was dangerous? - Oh, yes, I did; I thought so then, when I got into the boat.
Then I have not got it down right? - I thought so then.

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Is this right: "When we lowered our boat I did not think the condition of the 'Titanic' dangerous"? - I thought it was sure to stand up, but my opinion was very little.
Is that right - is that what you said? - Yes, very likely.
(Mr. Harbinson.) At the time you lowered your boat the water had risen almost to the wheel, had it? - I do not know where the wheel was; I was not looking at it; I was not near the bridge.
You did hear Mr. Andrews make these reassuring comments to the ladies? - When I heard him it was just a quarter of an hour after she struck, not much more.
What I want to ask you is this: Would the disinclination on the part of the ladies to get into the boats as a matter of fact be traceable to those reassuring statements which had been made to them by members of the crew? - No, I do not think so.

Examined by Mr. COTTER.

How long have you been going to sea? - A few years, 25 to 30 very near.
How long have you been in the employ of the White Star Line? - Over 18 years.
Have you ever taken part in a boat drill? - Everybody in the White Star knows their boats. Every Sunday you have to have a boat drill, but I have never taken a boat drill for lowering a boat.
Never in your life? - I have not done it in one company; I have not done it in any. They generally ask for sailors to do that and to try the boats.
Have you been in any other company where there has been boat drill? - The Pacific Company.
There you took part in lowering the boats? - Yes.
Did you learn how to handle a boat through that? - Yes.
Have you ever taken part in bulkhead door drill? - Yes.
Were there any hand-closing bulkhead doors? - No; they were all bridge-closed.
Were there any hand-closing bulkhead doors? - No.
Are you sure? - Certainly. I can only tell you the working deck and the position I was working in.
Was there any bulkhead door drill? - I could not tell you. The ship had only sailed for the one week, and on Saturday they close all the doors. They try them at 12 o'clock; they are closed and opened again.
Did not you take part in that bulkhead door drill? - No.
When the boat struck you said you were on night watch? - Yes.
Your duty would be round the first-class saloon to receive the reports from the bedroom stewards and the stewards of the second and third-class? - That is right.
Where did you go when you found there was water going into the baggage-room? - As I told you, I went down and changed my clothes.
You did not go to the second steward or the chief steward? - I went down. I met Mr. Wheat, the assistant second steward, and I told him I thought it was serious, and I was going away into the glory hole. I called all our boys.
What did you say to them? - I told them I thought it was a bit serious.
Did they come up? - Some of them did and some did not till Mr. Dodd came, and he chased everyone out of every glory hole.
Were you there when he came? - Yes. I had changed and had everything ready.
What order did he give the men? - Everyone to get their life preservers and go to their boats.
Did he give instructions to get the women out of the third and second-class and the first? - The bedroom stewards were all told to go to every room and put life preservers on the passengers and get them out of their cabins.
Did the men carry out those orders as far as you could see? - As far as I could see.
Now I want to ask you a very vital question. How many men were in the steward department of the "Titanic"? - I think something like 470 altogether - there must have been.
Were they all Englishmen? - I do not know whether the restaurant were included in it or not.
There is a restaurant there? - Yes.
What is that staff constituted of? - Mostly Italians and French. I do not know. I never mix with them, so I cannot tell you; but there were none of them Englishmen as a rule.
How many Italians and Frenchmen would there be in the crew? - Do you mean my average?
Yes? - Well, I should say 50 to 60.
Can you tell us whose jurisdiction they were under outside the captain - the chief steward or somebody else? - Mr. Gatti.
Who was Mr. Gatti? - A nice little man.
What was Mr. Gatti's position on board the "Titanic"? - He was like chief steward in his own department.
Do you know if any of Mr. Gatti's men took part in any drill at all; had they a boat station? - I do not know.
Did you see any of those men after, shall I say, the alarm had been given? - Well, I saw them all bunched together, but everyone was bunched together at first; but after that I only saw one, and he saved himself.
I want to ask you your opinion - supposing there had been what we will call a proper boat muster of all hands on the "Titanic" to the boat stations when that collision took place, do you think, if that had taken place, and they had mustered on the boat deck it would have been possible from the time the ship struck, before the boats were lowered, to have got every woman and child out of the third, second and first-class? - Well, my opinion is, suppose everyone went to their boat stations - you had all your boat stations, and perhaps eight or ten stewards, five or six firemen, two or three sailors - I do not think there would have been more ladies in the boats.
You missed my point. When you go to a boat station to muster, you go there to receive orders? - Yes.
A bugle goes - is that so? - Yes.
Did any bugle go that night? - No.
If a bugle had gone, the men would have gone to their boat stations, I take it? - Some of them would have gone, and some would not, because they never thought about looking to their boat stations.
Not the stewards department? - Some of them did not.
I am asking for your opinion. Supposing they had done so, was not there time then to turn the spare men out of the boat, and say, "Go down and show the women, second and third-class, and also the first-class, up here"? - If you had got them up - but you could not drive the women.
How do you know that? - Because I tried it.
Where did you try? - For our boat.
I mean down in the third-class, in the rooms; that is what we want to get at - if the stewards had been told to go down and bring them up? - They were told, but they did not think she would go down, and they were laughing when the passengers were carrying their baggage about.
Your contention is that they were told, and that the women would not come up on deck? - I am certain of it.
How are you certain of it. It is a very serious answer you are giving now? - Well, I am certain by our boys, because some of our boys would have been saved if they had come to the boat stations.
You have had conversations since? - I have never spoken to the boys.
How do you know? - Because I know all the old ones were lost.

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That is not the point. You make a statement that a man was there and that the women would not come up, and then you said, "Some of our boys have been saved"? - I did not say they were saved; I said all the best of the boys went down.
How do you know the women and children would not come up? - Well, I could tell by the bedroom stewards. I saw them driving, and I saw Mr. Ismay try to drive a few, and he had a pair of slippers on and his dust coat, and he was trying to get the women, and they would not go in for him into our boat.
That was on the boat deck. I am talking about down below - the third-class quarters? - I was not down there, and I could not tell you.
The Commissioner: This Witness was not down below in the third-class quarters.
Mr. Cotter: He states there was a steward sent down there, and he also states that the women would not come up.
The Commissioner: I suppose he only says that because he only saw some women come up. Some certainly did come up and got into his boat.
(Mr. Cotter.) You are not sure what was going on down below? - No.
You say the second steward, Mr. Dodd, came back with a dust coat over his head? - Yes, he had his dust coat in his hand and gave me his lifebelt, and did not come back for it.
Did he give any orders? - No, he gave orders in the glory hole; he had no business to give orders on the deck.
Are you sure he had no right to give orders to the steward department on deck? - Certainly not; it is under the officers, that.
Now when you got into the boat did you find any biscuits and water there? - No. I trampled over a loaf of bread, a big pan loaf; there were biscuits carried up, but nobody seemed to care to put them in.
Who carried the biscuits up? - Williams had one box - Billy Williams - and there might have been four or five boxes carried up through the companion way. They were shoving each other on.
There were some stewards bringing the stores up? - Yes, they were bringing the stores up.
Had you any difficulty in launching your boat? - Nothing at all earthly - easy.
There was no attempt to rush the boat by the men? - No; it would have been rushed at first; but when they saw it was not going down, they went away from our boat.
Did you see any stewards putting lifebelts on the passengers? - I did not, because I was not amongst them.
How many women do you think were on deck just as your boat was lowered? - When it was lowered there was not a woman near our boat, because we could not get any more to go in.
Were there any there? - They were walking up and down. As I told you I saw Mr. Ismay trying to get them into our boat, and he took them to the starboard side; he went to the starboard side with them.
Was your boat the first away? - No, I should think it would be about fifth on the port side - fourth or fifth on the port side when it went away.
Yours was one of the emergency boats? - Yes.
It would be the first boat on the other side? - Yes.
Number 2? - Yes.
Did you see any of the foreign waiters on the deck? - I saw them in a bunch before I went to my boat.
You did not see any on the deck? - No.
You never saw them after you saw them in that bunch? - No.
You do not know whether they assisted with the passengers in any way? - I do not know.
Did you go to Belfast on the "Titanic"? - Yes.
So you would have a thorough knowledge of the way round her? - Well, I was every night round her and every day. I went round every part of her, or I think I did - but you could not go round her.
Can you tell us where the glory holes are situated in the "Titanic"? - All amidships.
On which side, port or starboard? - Port side.
On the port side? - Yes.
Can you show on that chart? - Underneath the saloon as near as possible. They would hold about 28. Some of them hold about 28, some 40, and some 60 or 70.
Would they have any difficulty at all in getting up the companions, and round the ship? - Certainly not.
No difficulty at all? - Certainly not.
Was there a lifebelt for every steward in the glory hole? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. HOLMES.

Did you hear any order given by the captain as to the sending away of your boat? - I think it was the captain told us to make for that light and come back again.
Did you hear him tell the fourth officer to go away? - Yes, and come back.
Is it not the fact that you did in fact try to pick up some passengers who were in the water? After you had left the "Titanic" did not you make any attempt? - I did not see any people in the water; we heard them, but did not see them.
The Commissioner: I understand he heard cries, but saw no one.
Mr. Holmes: I am basing my question on the report of the evidence given by the fourth officer in America.
The Commissioner: I do not know what that is.

Examined by Mr. EDWARDS.

Do you remember the names of the members of the crew who were in your boat? - I do not know any of them.

(Mr. Edwards - To the Witness.) You said that you saw a list of men allotted to each boat? - Certainly.
Was that a printed list? - Written out. It is a printed bill, but your name is put for each boat.
Are the names written in? - Yes.
Would those names be written before you left Southampton? - I saw my name on the Thursday night.
That I understand, but would they in fact be written out before you left Southampton or not? - No, they would be written out after we got away, I should think. They have always been in every ship I have been in.
So that there would be no copy on shore of this list? - I do not think so.

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Examined by Mr. LAING.

Did you hear the fourth officer give his evidence in America? - No.
Is it true, so far as you know, after you were in the water you attempted to rescue three more persons for whom there was room, but without success? - I did not see them.
Do you remember anything of that sort? - No.

Re-examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

Now just explain to us a little more. What do you mean by the glory hole? - It is where we all live.
The stewards? - Yes; it is called "glory hole" in all ships.
Is it next to the galley? - No, it is on E deck, the working alleyway. There are two exits, one from the saloon companion and the other up through the pantry.
It is on the port side, I understand? - Yes.
The glory holes are on the port side of the alleyway? - Yes, the outside.
The alleyway goes up - that is, the port alleyway? - The port alleyway is the working alleyway.
And you are on the port side of that? - Yes, on the off side.
Against the side of the ship? - Yes.
Against the port side? - Yes.
I think I see where it is; it is on "E," if I understand? - Yes.
(The Attorney-General.) Your Lordship sees no doubt where it is. (To the Witness.) You told us about Mr. Ismay in answer to one of my learned friends? Was Mr. Ismay still on the "Titanic" when your boat left? - Yes, he was doing as much as any other Englishman could do.
Standing on the deck? - He was not; he was trying to entice women to go to the boats.
As I understand he had tried that on the port side where you were? - He took them across. There is about that height where my boat was, and he took them round there to the other side abaft the second funnel, I think.
Why did he take them the other side? - Because they would not come into ours, and he tried to get them to the other side to go into another boat.
You told us something about a bulkhead drill? - I did not tell you that.
I thought you answered a question? - I answered a question. I know nothing about bulkhead drill.
Did you see a bulkhead drill? - In our position we would not know anything at all; it might happen dozens of times and we would not see it.
So far as you are concerned you know nothing about that? - I know nothing at all about it.

(The Witness withdrew.)

THOMAS PATRICK DILLON, Sworn.

Examined by Mr. RAYMOND ASQUITH.

You were a trimmer on the "Titanic," were you not? - Yes.
I suppose your duties as a trimmer would be in the engine room? - Yes.
Were you on duty in the engine room on the night of the accident? - Yes.
Is there more than one engine room? - I do not know.
I see on the plan immediately after the last boiler there is a compartment marked "Reciprocating engine." Is that where you were? - That is where I understand I was - in the engine room. I have never been down below before; it was my first trip down below.
Would you be in a coal bunker, or where? - In the engine room where the main engines are.
What were you doing there? What were your duties there? - I belonged to the upper section, but the upper section of boilers was not lit up, and they sent us to the engine room to assist in cleaning the gear.
Did you feel the shock when the ship struck? - Slightly.
And shortly before that had the telegraph rung? - Yes.
Can you say at all how long before she struck that was? - Two seconds.
What was the order given by the telegraph? - I could not tell you.
You just heard it ring. Then a few seconds after that you felt a slight shock? - Yes.
Was anything done to the engines? Did they stop or did they go on? - They stopped.
Was that immediately after you felt the shock or some little time after? - About a minute and a half.
Did they continue stopped or did they go on again after that? - They went slow astern.
How long were they stopped for before they began to go slow astern? - About half a minute.
For how long did they go slow astern? - About two minutes.
Two or three did you say? - Two minutes.
And then did they stop again? - Yes.
And did they go on again after that? - They went ahead again.
For how long? - For about two minutes.
Then did they stop the boat after that? - Yes.
Who else was in the engine room? Were there a number of engineers there? - Yes.
Can you remember who they were? - I did not know their names.
What did they do when the ship struck? - They rushed to their stations, the pumps and valves, I understand.
They set the pumps in motion? - I could not tell you.
Was anything done about the watertight compartments? - Yes.
Were they closed? - In the meantime.
How soon after the ship struck was that done? - Three minutes.
Did you receive any orders from the engineer? - Yes.
What order? - The next order we got was to get out of the engine room and into the stokehold and open the doors.
Open what doors? - The watertight doors or watertight compartments.
Was that possible; could you do it? - We assisted to do it.
As I understand it the watertight doors had been closed from the bridge? - Yes.
Could you open them from below? - One leading from the engine room to the stokehold was lifted up high enough by hand to let us get underneath.
You could open them by hand? - Yes, by a pump.

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(The Commissioner.) By a pump; what is the meaning of that? - The pump wheel.
(Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Did you open the watertight doors? - Yes, I assisted to open them as far as we could forward.
And did you go into the stokehold? - Yes.
Do you know which stokehold that would be? - The after-stokehold.
The one immediately forward of the engine room? - Yes.
Were the boilers lit in the stokehold? - No.
None of them? - No.
Did you go on to the next stokehold? - Yes.
Where the boilers were lit? - Yes.
What did you do there? - Opened the doors - assisted to open the other doors.
Did you do anything to the fires? - No.
Was an order given you with regard to the fires shortly after that? - Yes.
What order? - "Keep steam up."
How long was steam kept up? Can you say? - I could not tell you how long it was kept up, but that was the order - "Keep steam up."
Subsequently to that was an order given to draw the fires? - Yes.
Did you assist in carrying out that order? - No.
Drawing the fires? - No.
Do you know what fires it had reference to? What fires were to be drawn? - No.
You do not know in which stokehold the fires were to be drawn? - I know the order was passed along to the stokehold to draw fires as much as possible.
You were at this time in No. 2 stokehold, were not you? - Yes.
Were the fires drawn in that? - I do not know.
Was that the only stokehold you were in? - No.
What other stokehold were you in? - As far as No. 6.
That is in all of them. In which ones did you see the fires drawn? - I did not take notice.
You have told us that you, first of all, went into No. 1 stokehold, where the fires were not lit? - Yes.
And you then went on into No. 2, where they were lit? - Yes.
I suppose you lifted up the watertight doors? - We lifted up the watertight doors and opened them again.
Did you go on from No. 2 to No. 3? - Yes.
The Commissioner: Mr. Asquith, it is not clear whether you are talking of stokeholds or boiler rooms.
Mr. Raymond Asquith: I ought to have spoken of boiler sections, I think. I understand there are several stokeholds in each boiler section. What I meant was from one boiler section to another.
The Commissioner: Will you put your question quite plainly to the Witness, because I am told he may misunderstand.
(Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Yes, my Lord. (To the Witness.) You told us you first went from the engine room into another compartment, into one of the boiler sections. Is that right? - Yes.
No. 1 boiler section? - Yes.
The Commissioner: Now, in order that I may understand, will you take the long pointer, and point out to me and to the Witness where it is.
(Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Yes, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Can you see this plan?
(The Commissioner.) You can see the plan, cannot you? - Yes, my Lord.
(Mr. Raymond Asquith.) That is the engine room? - Yes.
You went through a watertight compartment there into that place which is called boiler room No. 1 - is that right? - Yes.
And there were no fires lit there? - No.
Then you went through another watertight door into another boiler room? - Yes.
Were the fires lit there? - Yes.
Did you go on from that into the third boiler room? - Yes.
Were fires lit there? - Yes.
Through another watertight door? - Yes.
Did you go on from that to the fourth boiler room? - Yes.
Through another watertight door? - Yes.
And then through another watertight door into boiler room No. 5? - No.
You did not? - No.
You stopped short at that point? - Yes.
(The Commissioner.) Then you opened three watertight doors in the watertight bulkheads.
The Attorney-General: Four, that is the evidence; from the engine room first.
(The Commissioner.) Oh, from the engine room first. Then you opened four, did you? - Yes, my Lord.
And when you came to the afterside of the fifth section, you stopped? - Yes, my Lord.
(Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Did you leave the doors open or not as you went through? - Left them open.
(The Commissioner.) They were not closed again? - No, my Lord.
(Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Having gone into No. 4 boiler room, did you go back through the open watertight doors, or what did you do then? - I did nothing then; I just knocked about.
You afterwards went on deck? - Yes.
How did you go up? Did you go back through the way you had come? - Yes, through the engine room.
And when you went back those watertight doors were still open, were they? - Yes.
(The Commissioner.) Were you ordered to open those doors? - Yes.
By whom? - By the chief engineer.
And what did you open them for? - To allow the engineers to get forward to their duties, the valves and the pumps.
Then am I to understand that the order had come from the bridge to close all the watertight doors, and that they were closed, and that afterwards the chief engineer ordered you to open the doors? - Yes, my Lord.
The Attorney-General: What he said was that they were closed automatically from the bridge.
The Commissioner: Yes, he said they were ordered to be closed from the bridge; they were in fact closed from the bridge.
The Attorney-General: Yes, my Lord.
The Commissioner: And although they were closed from the bridge you, under the orders of the chief engineer, opened them? - Yes, my Lord.

Sufficiently to allow you to get under the door? - Yes, my Lord.
Mr. Laing: They have to be released from the bridge; they have to telephone to the bridge and get the catch or clutch on the bridge released so as to allow them to be opened.
(The Commissioner.) That is so, is it? You could only open them with the concurrence of the people on the bridge? - We opened them by hand.
It is suggested to me - I do not know how it is - that you cannot open them by hand unless some catch or something of the kind is operated on the bridge to allow you to do so.
The Attorney-General: That would be done by the chief engineer; he would telephone up, I expect.
The Commissioner: The chief engineer would probably telephone up and get the man on the bridge to work the apparatus so that these doors could be opened.
(Mr. Raymond Asquith.) You have told us that you came back through those watertight compartments again to the engine room. Did you remain in the engine room some little time? - No.
What did you do then? - We got the order, "All hands on deck; put your life-preservers on."
Was there a clock in the engine room? - Yes.
Did you notice what time it was you got that order? - I noticed the clock, but I did not take any particular notice what time it was. The clock was put back about 20 minutes, I think.
Can you give us any idea of how long it was after the ship had struck that you got the order to go on deck? - Yes.

Page 100

About how long was it? - An hour and 40 minutes.
That would make it about 1 o'clock? - No.
After that - a quarter-past one? - Yes.
Did you go up on to the boat deck? - No.
Where did you go? - I kept on the well deck.
Did you see any water before you went up in any of the boiler rooms or the engine room? - Yes, there was water coming in forward.
The furthest point forward you reached was No. 4 boiler section? - Yes.
Was it coming in there? - Yes.
Where was it coming in? - Coming from underneath.
From underneath the floor? - Yes.
And from what part of the floor, the forward part or the afterpart? - The forward part.
Did it come in large quantities or only in small quantities? - Small quantities.
Was there any depth of water standing on the floor? - No.
Do you mean the floor was just damp? - That is all.
And it seemed to be coming through the floor? - Yes.
Did you see any coming through the side of the ship at all? - I never noticed.
Was there any water anywhere else in any of the other sections? - No.
Then you got this order about a quarter-past one and you went up on deck; you say the well deck. Did you see any passengers on the well deck? - Yes.
Men or women, or both? - Men and about two women; they just put them into the last boat; the last boat was getting lowered.
You actually saw the last boat go off? - No.
What do you mean when you say you saw the women put into the last boat that was lowered? - I did not lower it. I was on the starboard side of the well deck when I came up, and I saw two women there. They were singing out, "Any more women?" and there were two more, and we chased them up on to the boat deck. The last boat to leave was on the port side.
(The Commissioner.) Are you talking of the aft well deck? - Yes, my Lord.
(Mr. Raymond Asquith.) When you say the last boat, do you mean the aftermost boat or the last boat to leave from the ship? - The last boat to leave from the ship.
Do you know the number of that boat? - No.
Can you point it out on the model there? - No.
It was a boat on the port side? - Yes, because I could see they were chasing the women on to the port side. We stopped where we were. It was no use us going there.
You could see after that boat left there were no other boats left on the ship? - Yes.
Can you point out what was the situation on the ship of the boat that you saw leave, the last boat? - No.
(The Commissioner.) It was on the port side, I understand. The boat that you saw leave, the last boat, was on the port side? - They sung out it was the last boat.
Whichever it was, was it on the port side of the "Titanic"? - Yes, my Lord.
And was it in the forward part or aft? - I do not know, my Lord.
Were you on the after-well deck when you saw it? - Yes, my Lord. I heard an order - the last boat was leaving the ship. "Any more women there?" and we chased them up the ladder.
After that boat left did you see a number of passengers standing about still? - Yes.
Any women? - No.
I did not quite hear the answer you gave just now. You said something about chasing women up the ladder? - There were two women on the well deck when we got up from below, and we heard the order - the last boat was leaving the ship. "Are there any more women there?" and we chased them up the ladder.
Up to the boat deck? - Yes, I suppose they went up there.
And those were the women you saw there on the well deck? - Two women.
Did you afterwards go up yourself on to the boat deck? - No.
You remained where you were until the ship sank? - No.
Well, what did you do? - I went on to the poop.
Was she getting low in the water then? - Yes.
Were there many others on the poop besides yourself? - Yes.
Any passengers? - Yes.
Any women? - No.
How long did you wait on the poop? Until the ship actually sank? - Yes.
How did you get off the ship? - I left her in the water.
(The Commissioner.) Am I to understand that you were actually on board the "Titanic" when she went down? - Yes, my Lord.
(Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Before the ship actually went down did you see her make any movements? - Yes, she took one final plunge and righted herself again.
She gave a plunge and righted herself again? - Yes.
Did you notice anything about the funnel? - Not then.
Did you afterwards notice something about the funnel? - Yes.
What? - When she went down.
Was that after you had left the ship? - Before I left the ship.
What did you notice? - Well, the funnel seemed to cant up towards me.
It seemed to fall aft? - Yes; it seemed to fall up this way.
Was that the aftermost funnel? - Yes.
Did you get the idea that the ship was breaking in two? - No.
Did the funnel seem to fall towards you? - Yes.
(The Commissioner.) That is the after funnel? - Yes, my Lord.
(Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Then you say the ship plunged and righted herself again; and was it then that you dived into the water? - I did not dive into the water.
How did you get off the ship into the water? - I went down with the ship, and shoved myself away from her into the water.
Were you sucked down at all? - About two fathoms.
And did you then come up again to the surface? - I seemed to get lifted up to the surface.
You got lifted up to the surface? - Yes.
Were you picked up by one of the boats? - Yes.
Do you know which one? - Afterwards I found out; it was No. 4 boat.
Did you have to swim far? Were you swimming long in the water before you were picked up? - I suppose about twenty minutes.
Did you see any of the other passengers in the water - any other people in the water of any sort? - Yes.
Many? - About a thousand.
Were there any others near the boat when you were picked up? - I do not know.
(The Commissioner.) Did you say "I saw about one thousand people in the water"? - From my estimation, my Lord.
(Mr. Raymond Asquith.) When you came up again, after you were sucked down - you told us you were sucked down and came up again - was the ship still floating then? - No.
She had sunk when you came up again? - Well, I saw what I thought would be the afterpart of her coming up and going down again, final.
Then she had not sunk? - She came up and went down again.

Page 101

You saw what you thought was the afterpart coming up again? - I thought it was the ship coming up again. She came up and went down again - finish.
You were picked up by boat No. 4? - I found out it was No. 4 afterwards.
Did you see any women in the water? - No.
Was there anyone round about boat No. 4 in the water when you were picked up? - I do not know.
I suppose you were probably very exhausted by that time? - Yes.
When you got into the boat, I think you became unconscious? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

Did you ascertain how many people were in No. 4 boat? - No.
At any time before you were rescued by the "Carpathia"? - No.
Did you know before you left the ship - before she sank - whether all of what you call the life-rafts, the Englehardt collapsible boats had been used? - I do not know.
With regard to those watertight doors, is it the case that when you pass, say, from the engine room into No. 1 boiler room, you can open the door from the engine room, but you cannot shut it from the boiler room? - I do not know.
Mr. Scanlan: You do not understand me.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

I think this was your first trip on this boat? - Yes.
So you did not know very much about it? - No.
When you came aft, after going through boiler rooms 2, 3 and 4, you stopped at 4? - Yes, I stopped at 4; I think it was No. 4.
That was to allow all the others to go through - the other engineers to come back? - All the engineers were working in the stokehold.
That is why you opened the doors? - Yes.
Were they all through when you came back; had they come aft? - In my estimation I suppose they did.
But were you the last to come aft? - No.
There were others behind you? - They came in a bunch.
Do you know why the doors were left open; why no attempt was made to close them? - No.
You do not know? - No.
Had you a lifebelt? - Yes.
Had you it on? - Not then I did not.
You say when you came up to the well deck there were a great number of people there, men? - Yes.
Had they all lifebelts? - In my estimation they had.
Most of them? - Yes.
What class of passengers did these seem to be? - Steerage passengers.
All steerage passengers? - Yes.
But there were no boats for them? - No; the last one was being lowered.

Examined by Mr. EDWARDS.

From the time that the ship struck until you came back from No. 4 boiler section, what time elapsed? - About an hour and forty minutes.
At that time some water was coming through in No. 4 boiler section? - Yes.
As you came back was there any water at all coming in at No. 3, or No. 2, or No. 1? - No.
From the time that you left the engine room until you started back from No. 4 boiler section what time elapsed? - From the time I left the engine room till the time I came back from No. 4 section what time elapsed.
Yes? - An hour and ten minutes.
Did you report to anybody in the engine room that you had seen water coming through in No. 4 boiler section? - No.
Did anyone report, to your knowledge? - No, all the engineers were working there.
(The Commissioner.) Do you mean by that that they all knew it? - Yes.
(Mr. Clement Edwards.) Did you hear any orders given, before you left, to reclose the watertight doors? - No.

Examined by Mr. LEWIS.

I believe you have had experience as a sailor as well as a trimmer? - Yes.
Did you have a boat number given to you or a boat place in precisely the same way as you would as a sailor? - No.
How long were you waiting on the poop, waiting for the boat to go down? - About 50 minutes.
From your position could you see the passengers? - Yes.
You could see the passengers? - Yes.
Was there any commotion all this time on the part of the passengers? - No.
They were simply waiting? - Yes.
Expecting the boat to go down? - Yes.
No disorder whatever? - No.
When you were taken into the boat what condition were you in? Were you picked up unconscious? - Unconscious.
When you came to what did you find? - I was not properly right when I came to.
Whom did you find with you in the boat? - Lyons lying on top of me, a seaman, and a passenger lying on top of me dead.
Do you know the seaman? - One was Lyons.
Were you in the hospital some time after you were taken on board the "Carpathia"? - Yes.
Do you remember the fire in the bunker? - I remember working in a bunker.
Do you remember the fire in a bunker? - Yes.
Did you help to clear out the coal? - Yes.
You were ordered to do so, I presume? - Yes.
Would you call it a serious fire? - I do not know.
Did it take some time to put out? - Yes.
Did you see the sides of the bunker after the coal was taken out? - No.
You did not see whether it was painted afterwards? - No.

Examined by Mr. LAING.

How many boilers are there in No. 1 section? - Five.
And none of the boilers in No. 1 section was alight at all? - No.
Did you see the engine room telegraph? - No.
How are you able to tell us what orders came down? - By the telegraph ringing.
But the ring would not tell you, would it? - It would tell me that the telegraph rang.
Yes it would, but it would not tell you what order came down at all? - No.

Page 102

Re-examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

In No. 1 boiler room are the five boilers single ended boilers? - Yes.
In No. 2 they are double ended? - I do not know.
The Attorney-General: If your Lordship will look at the plan, your Lordship will see it quite clearly and what he did. You will see the watertight doors marked which he went through. Plan No. 3 is the one that contains the decks from the saloon deck, through the various decks E., F., G., down to the tank top. If you look at the lowest of them "Tank top" you see there "Reciprocating Engine," then you see five engine boilers in No. 1 boiler room; and then if you notice there you will see a watertight door, very small, between the two coal sections. Then you pass through that into No. 2 boiler room. There you have the five double-ended boilers, and then again through that through a watertight door into No. 3 boiler room, where there are again five double-ended boilers; again through a watertight door into No. 4 boiler room for the five double-ended boilers, and that is where he stops.
The Commissioner: He saw water coming up through the floor plates of that No. 4.
(The Attorney-General.) Yes. Your Lordship will remember it is in the next compartment No. 5 that Barrett and this man were. (To the Witness.) You went through Nos. 2, 3 and 4 boiler rooms? - Yes.
You have told us, I think, in No. 1 boiler room - that is with the single-ended boilers - the fires were not alight? - Yes.
Were they alight in the others, Nos. 2, 3 and 4? - Yes.
So far as you know all the fires were alight except the five single-ended boilers in No. 1 boiler room? - Yes.
Could you alone raise one of these watertight doors? - No.
Could you do it by yourself? - I do not know.
How many of you went through the watertight doors from boiler room to boiler room? - There were seven of us working in the engine room.
But how many of you went? First of all you went from the engine room to No. 1 boiler room? - Yes.
You went through a watertight door for that purpose? - Yes.
How many of you went through that watertight door when you did? - About six or seven - seven.
How many of you helped to open the watertight door? - As we got into each section the men were in it, in their own boiler rooms. At No. 1 boiler room we had to lift the door up, and when we got to the next section there were men belonging to that section in it.
You lifted No.1; how many of you did it? - Three - three on the pump.
What did you do it with? How did you do it? - With a pump handle.
You turned that? - Yes.
Was it two or three turned that handle? - Two or three.
When you had got into No. 1 boiler room, who told you to go into No. 2? - We had to open the doors and we had to work through.
And you continued through to No. 4? - Yes.
Were you told to stop then? - Yes.
Who told you to stop? - One of the engineers.
What did you understand this was being done for? Why were you opening these watertight doors and going through these boiler rooms? What was the object of it? - To allow the engineers to get at the pumps and valves, I think.
Did you know at all why you did not go into No. 5 boiler room? - Yes, I had an idea.
Why? - On account of the water - too much water.
You think that was why? - Yes.
Did you hear anything about that at the time you were in No. 4 boiler room? I mean, did you hear that you were not to go into No. 5 because there was too much water, when you were in No. 4 boiler room? - No.
Then how do you know? - Well, I judged that. In my own estimation I thought that was the reason we did not open the door, because there was too much water in No. 5.
The Attorney-General: I have a notice which I will read, so as to get it on the note, which my friend has handed me. It is a notice which is pasted on the bridge on the watertight door apparatus.
The Commissioner: Where the button is?
The Attorney-General: Yes. "In case of emergency, to close watertight doors on tank top, press bell; push for 10 seconds to give alarm; then move switch to 'on' position and keep it there. Note: Doors cannot, however, be operated mechanically whilst switch is on."
The Commissioner: That means that the switch must have been taken off?
The Attorney-General: Yes.
The Commissioner: Before these doors could be opened by the handle in the way described by the Witness?
The Attorney-General: Yes; that is as I understand it.
The Commissioner: My recollection is that there is the same notice on the "Olympic."
The Attorney-General: That may be.
The Commissioner: I think I remember reading it.
The Attorney-General: My friend will correct me if it is wrong, or Mr. Wilding, but as I understand the effect will be that when the bell is pressed and the switch is on, then the watertight doors to the tank top come down. They cannot be raised again from there. They must be raised, I suppose, down below. That is right?
Mr. Laing: Yes.
The Attorney-General: They would have to be raised down below one at a time. When you have released the clutch at the top they drop by gravity.
The Commissioner: I do not know that there is any significance in it at all, but those doors which he opened were never closed again.
The Attorney-General: I understand not from what he says. Those are the 12 doors which are operated from the bridge, which communicate in that way, closing the tank top. Your Lordship will remember the question was asked - I am only saying it so that we can have it clear - at one stage you did ask the question about the closing of the watertight doors from the bridge.
The Commissioner: I did.
The Attorney-General: Since then you have seen the "Olympic." The effect would be that these watertight doors could only be closed with this pressure on the button from the bridge - that is, the 12 to which we are now referring. There are 12 on the tank top.
The Commissioner: There are 12 doors that are closed automatically.
The Attorney-General: That is right, from the switch.
(The Commissioner.) There is a question that one of my colleagues wants cleared up. (To the Witness.) You said that you supposed you did not go from No. 4 into No. 5 because there was a large quantity of water in No. 5? - Yes, my Lord.
You remember saying that just now? - Yes.
Is that a conclusion that you have arrived at, that there was a large quantity of water in No. 5, since the accident, or did you think it was the fact when you were in No. 4, and that was the reason? Did you then think that that was the reason for not going into No. 5? - Yes, my Lord.
You thought then when you were in No. 4 that the reason you were not ordered to go into No. 5 was that there was a great deal of water there? - Yes.
The Attorney-General: I understood him to mean that, my Lord.

(The Witness withdrew.)

Page 103

THOMAS RANGER, Sworn.

Examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

Are you a greaser? - Yes.
Were you employed as greaser on the "Titanic"? - Yes.
And do you remember on Sunday, the 14th of April, going on watch in the evening at 6 o'clock? - Yes.
Was it your duty as greaser to oil the electric fans of the vessel? - Yes.
That was one of your jobs? - Yes.
Do you remember, just about 20 minutes to 12 that night, being in the electric workshop? - Yes.
Where is that? Do you know what deck that is on? - On C deck, I think.
Do you know what deck that is that you call C deck? - I do not think it is the letter "C"? - It is the top of the turbine engine room.
It is E deck, my Lord. If you look at the E deck you will see it just abaft of the "engine casing" there.
The Commissioner: Abaft?
(The Attorney-General.) Yes, abaft of the "engine casing" on E deck. (To the Witness.) Is it close to the fan store? - It is underneath the emergency dynamo.
I think it is marked "Electric Store." If you look just abaft of the "engine casing" you will find "turbine engine casing"; the next aft is the "Electric Store."
The Commissioner: Yes, I see that.
(The Attorney-General - To the Witness.) What were you doing there? - Repairing the electric fans.
You were at work there with the chief electrician, were you not? - Yes.
Do you remember feeling something happen? - Yes.
Just describe it to us? - There was just a slight jar - just lifted us off our feet.
Just a slight jar - just lifted you off your feet? - Yes, it just moved us like that (demonstrating).
Did you take any notice of it as regards your work, or did you go on with your work? - No, we turned round and saw the turbine engine was stopped. We turned round and looked into the engine room and saw the turbine engine was stopped.
(The Commissioner.) Was it stopped? - Yes.
(The Attorney-General.) Do you mean at the time you felt the bump? - About two minutes afterwards.
First of all you felt the bump? - Yes.
Then did you go on with your work? - Yes.
Then, if I understand you, about two minutes afterwards you looked around and saw the turbine engine had stopped? - Yes.
Is that right? - Yes.
Then what did your chief electrician do? - He went down below and stood by the main lighting engines.
That would be down on the tank top? - Down on the bottom platform.
It is the same one we were looking at just now, 3; I pointed out to you, first of all, there was a reciprocating engine room, and then we went along the boiler rooms. Now, if you go aft, the next to the reciprocating engine is the turbine-engine room, and just aft of that you will find an electric engine. That is what you mean, is it not? - Yes.
Your Lordship will see on the big plan it is very well marked. There is the turbine engine which my friend, Mr. Rowlatt, is pointing out. Just abaft of that you see "electric machinery" in the centre. That you see from the tank top plan here and fresh water tanks at the sides. That is really only giving you there what you have on the tank top plan.
The Commissioner: The chief engineer went below and stood by the electric engines?
(The Attorney-General.) Yes. (To the Witness.) You stopped in the workshop, did you? - Yes.
(The Attorney-General.) The chief electrician, not the chief engineer, my Lord. (To the Witness.) When did you get the order from your chief electrician? - About a quarter of an hour afterwards.
Then you remained there in the workshop for a quarter of an hour? - Yes.
Were you doing your work? - Yes.
Mending an electric fan? - Yes.
And during the time you were there, did you know that anything had happened? - I knew the ship had struck something.
You knew that? - Yes.
(The Commissioner.) By this time the ship had stopped, I suppose? - Yes.
(The Attorney-General.) You got an order from your chief, did you? - Yes, to go and stop all the electric fans, the stokehold fans first.
Do you know what that was for. So that the steam would not rise in the boilers, I think.
The Commissioner: I do not understand that.
(The Attorney-General.) To keep the draught down, I suppose - to reduce the draught. I suppose that is the object of it. (To the Witness.) How many fans were there to close down? - There were 45 working.
Did you then go to stop all those fans? - Yes.
The 45? - Yes.
Beginning at the stokeholds? - Yes.
How long did that take you? - About three quarters of an hour.
When you want to stop a fan in the stokehold, do you have to go into the stokehold itself to do it? - No, in the fan rooms.
Where are they?
Mr. Laing: F Deck.
(The Attorney-General.) I think your Lordship will find them all on F deck, four decks up. If you look at F deck you will see a number of fans marked. It is the same one which we were dealing with just now which had the tank top. If your Lordship will look at F deck you will remember the squash racquet court which we were dealing with there. Then passing along aft you came to the first one - "fans." Then there is a "boiler casing," and then you go along again, "boiler casing," "fans," then "fans" again, and so on. So that really what you had to do was to go from the E deck to F deck; is that right? - Yes.
By the time you had stopped the 45 fans, did you see members of the crew going on deck? - No.
When you had finished after the three quarters of an hour what did you do next? - I went back to the electric storeroom.
Back again to E deck? - Yes.
When you got to E deck did you go to the electric store room which you had been in before? - No, I went up the dummy funnel. There are four fans situated up the dummy funnel.
Where is that? You have told us where the electric store room was. Now where is that? Is it forward or aft? - Aft.
Is it immediately aft, or some way aft? - The after funnel of the ship leads down to it.
The Commissioner: The after funnel is a dummy funnel?
The Attorney-General: Yes; it does not serve fire at all.
The Commissioner: It is that funnel that is the dummy?
The Attorney-General: Yes, it is plain if you look at that.
The Commissioner: It is used for ventilation?
The Attorney-General: Yes.
The Solicitor-General: The six boiler rooms are grouped in pairs of two.
(The Attorney-General.) The three forward funnels work the six boiler rooms; each one works two; and the third one works the one lot of double-ended boilers and the one lot of single; that is how it stands. (To the Witness.) Then you went up the dummy funnel to the boat deck? - Yes.

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Then when you got to the boat deck what did you see? - I went from there to the second-cabin deck, aft, the starboard side.
What were you doing that for? - I had stopped all the fans, and I went on deck to see what was being done.
You got to the boat deck. You have told us you went up the dummy funnel to the boat deck? - Yes.
You had no order to do that, but you had done your work? - Yes.
Then when you got on to the boat deck, what did you see then? - Nothing.
Before you go on from there, tell us this: Up to this time had you seen any water in the ship? - No.
You had not seen any at all? - No.
From the boat deck where did you go? - To the second-cabin deck.
The second-cabin deck on the starboard side? - Aft - starboard side aft.
I am not quite sure that I know which you mean by the second-cabin deck. Do you mean the deck where the second cabins are? - The second deck down from the boat deck.
That is bridge deck B, according to the plan.
(The Solicitor-General.) Is it where the second-class smoke-room is? - Yes.
(The Attorney-General.) You will see the second-class, if your Lordship has a painted plan, is painted green. You will see it marked in the centre there, "Second-class smoke-room." (To the Witness.) What did you do when you got there? - There were about 20 more men there; 20 men stood there.
Members of the crew? - Yes.
Did you know what they were? - Firemen mostly.
Were there any women there? - No.
Were there any children? - No.
Did you have any talk with the firemen and trimmers? - Yes.
Well, just tell us, did you find out from them what was happening? - No, we heard that all the boats had left the ship then.
That is just what I wanted to get. Let us get this quite clearly. You heard by that time all the boats had gone? - Yes.
You were down in the second-class cabin and you saw no women and children - that is right, is it? - Yes.
Only these 20 men of the crew? - Yes.
What did you do then? - I went to the port side of the boat deck aft.
And then? - There was me and a greaser by the name of Scott. We climbed up the davit and down the boat falls, and I got into a boat, and Scott dropped into the water.
You are speaking of the port side as I understand? - Yes, port side.
Did you notice at all whether there was any list on the ship at this time? - There was a slight list to port, Sir.
Did you notice whether she was down by the head? - Yes.
Badly? - Yes.
Did you see at all whether the water was over her foc'sle deck; could you see that? - No, you could not.
You could not see that? - You could not see whether her foc'sle deck was under water at the afterend of the boat.
You could not see so far from where you were? - No.
But you noticed she was down by the head; you could feel that? - Yes.
I thought you told us that all the boats had left the ship? - This boat came back to the ship as they only had two men in the boat.
She came back to the ship with only two men in her; is that it? - She never had enough men in the boat to pull her away.
Not enough men to man her? - Yes.
Was she full? - Full of women and children.
Do you know what number the boat was? - No. 4.
Did you get any orders to go down into the boat? - No.
Was there anybody there on the boat deck; was there any officer there? - No, Sir.
Is this right, that you saw one of the lifeboats, No. 4, come back to the ship? - Yes.
And you and another man called Scott started, and you climbed the davits? - Yes, and down the falls.
And you dropped into the boat? - And the other man dropped into the water.
How many people were there in the boat? - I should think about 40.
And how many men were there in the boat? - Two.
Do you know who they were? - Perkins, a quartermaster, and Foley, a sailor.
Those were the only men in the boat? - Yes.
You do not mean the only seamen, but the only men? - The only men.
Were there any other men standing at the ship's side when this boat came alongside? - No.
Did they call out at all; did anybody hail you? - We never heard no one.
How did you know when she came back; you looked over the side and saw her, I suppose? - Yes.
Did you know then what she had come back for? - No, not till we had got back into the boat.
If I understand you aright, she came back with 40 people in her, all told? - Yes.
No orders were given? - No.
There was no officer standing where you were? - No.
And you and the other man climbed the davits and dropped down into the boat? - Yes.
Did the boat then push off? - We pulled away from the ship after we got the man in the boat by the name of Scott.
You picked him up after he had dropped into the water? - Yes.
Do you remember which davit it was that you climbed? - The after davit of all, the port side.
That is the davit for lifeboat No. 16. It is the aftermost one on the port side. If I follow correctly what you said, there was nobody there except you two? - No one - only us two.
The Commissioner: This was on the boat deck?
The Attorney-General: Yes.
The Commissioner: And all the boats had gone away by this time?
The Attorney-General: Yes, by this time, and she came back.
The Commissioner: There were no boats for any one to get into unless they climbed down the davits, or jumped into the sea.
(The Attorney-General.) Quite. (To the Witness.) Did you see the vessel go down? - Yes.
You got into the boat, and I suppose, pulled away from the side of the "Titanic"? - Yes.
Did you help to pull the boat? - Yes.
When you drew away from the "Titanic" did you lay-by, or, what did you do? - No, we only just got away in time before the ship went down.
Just tell us what you saw of the ship going down; describe it to the Court? - The forward end of the ship went underneath and seemed to break off, and the afterpart came back on a level keel.
Then, when she came back on a level keel, what happened to the afterpart of her, then? - It turned up and went down steadily.
Turned up that way, stern up. (Showing.) - Yes.
Did she remain like that at any time? - No.
Will you just describe to us what you mean? - She just slowly turned up and went down. You could see the three propellers in the air.
The foremost part of the afterpart of the vessel began to go down into the water? - Yes.
And the stern went up? - Yes.
And then you saw the propellers in the air? - Yes.
And then that all disappeared? - Yes.
Was there room in your boat for more people? - Yes.
Did you go back? - We pulled back to the wreckage and picked up seven persons.
Were they men? - Yes.

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Did you see the last Witness who was here just now? - Yes, that was one of the men.
Dillon. Your Lordship will remember he said he was picked up by No. 4 boat. Now I will ask you just one question about the lights. When you went away in the boats, did you see any lights? - Yes, the lights were burning.
The lights of the "Titanic"? - Yes.
You would have a particular interest in the lights? - The emergency light engine was running as I passed it coming up the dummy funnel.
Just above the electric store that was pointed out before. Now just tell us about the lights. You saw the lights of the "Titanic" as you moved away. Did you notice at all when the stern, the afterpart of the vessel, got on a level keel whether there were any lights then? - The lights seemed to be going out then.
Did you hear any explosion? - No, Sir.
When you say "The lights seemed to be going out," will you explain to us what you mean? You saw the vessel dive down? - Yes.
The fore part of her? - Yes.
When you say the forward end seemed to break off, and the afterpart came back on a level keel, and then you say the lights were going out. When she came back like that on a level keel were there any lights? - Right aft. The lights were right aft what were burning, on the afterend what was floating.
You mean the afterpart of the aft end? - Yes.
Where, the taffrail, or where? Did you notice? - Along here. (Showing on model.)
Just about abeam of the dummy funnel, do you mean? - Yes.
And did they continue burning then right away aft to the taffrail? - Yes, right aft.
The Commissioner: I do not understand this.
(The Attorney-General.) How long did you see them burning? - The lights gradually went out as the aft end of the ship went under.
The Commissioner: That is what I do not understand. I should have thought that the lights would either remain all alight or all go out.
The Attorney-General: When the water gets over the dynamo it would stop them, would not it?
The Commissioner: They were being worked, as I understand, at this time by the emergency dynamo.
(The Attorney-General.) Yes. That, if it were working, would be as he describes, just about abreast of the dummy funnel, directly underneath it. As I understand it, he says the lights were burning in the afterend. (To the Witness.) I suppose that when the emergency dynamo got into the water the lights would go out? - Yes, it stops the fuse.
The Commissioner: I understood him to say - I do not know whether I am wrong - that aft of the dummy funnel some of the lights were out and some of them were in.
The Attorney-General: I understood him to say so at first, but I understood him to alter that, and at last I think he was right in what he said. At first I took the same view as your Lordship. I understood him to say he was dealing then with the afterpart of the ship which had righted itself on to a level keel.
The Commissioner: She was only at the top of the water for a few minutes.
(The Attorney-General.) Yes. And then he says from the point which he marked for us there, which was just about abreast of the dummy funnel right away aft to the taffrail the lights were burning. (To the Witness.) Is that right? - Yes.
(The Commissioner.) All the lights were burning? - All the lights aft.
(The Attorney-General.) At the afterend of the aft part of the ship they were all burning, but nothing forward, I understand. - No.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

Had you any light in this No. 4 lifeboat? - No.
When you started to descend by the falls did you know there was a boat below? - We could see it coming back to the ship.
Was that from the reflected light from the ship itself? - Yes.
After you had picked up seven persons I take it that you still had less than 50 on board your lifeboat? - Yes.
Had you then accommodation for still more people? - A few more, Sir, but it would not give you room to pull the oars in the boat.
Had you sufficient seamen in that boat, when you got in and Scott, to properly man that boat? - No, Sir.
How many men would be necessary to adequately man that lifeboat, and enable you to row? - 10 I should think.
10 men? - 10 men.
What did you do; were you rowing? - Yes.
Were those who were there unable to row the boat? - The men we got out of the water, Sir, were not fit to pull the oars. We had to rub them to fetch them round.
Had you difficulty all the time in rowing this boat and navigating her? - Yes, there was not room.
At the time you left by the falls, were there a number of deckhands near you? - No.
They had remained down below at the time you came up to the upper deck? - Yes.
Had you a boat station given to you? - Yes.
What boat were you in? - No. 6 was my boat.
Had you had any exercise, any practice, any boat drill? - No.
Do you know something about the management of lifeboats, rowing boats? - Yes.
Have you been at sea long? - About 16 years.
Have you been on a number of liners? - Yes.
Was it usual on the liners you have been sailing on to have regular boat drill and boat masters? - In the Royal Mail Company it is.
Do you know if this No. 4 boat had a compass? - I could not say, Sir.
Had she water - drinking water? - I do not know.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

When you came up the dummy funnel, how much of the "Titanic" continued to be lighted? - All the part that was out of the water.
How much of it then was out of the water? - Three parts of the ship.
How much of the ship was served by this dynamo that you have described; was it the upper portion? - All over the ship.
It served the whole ship? - I believe so.
The wires that carry the current are protected, I understand, by indiarubber, is not that so? - Yes.
Am I right in suggesting that immediately water reaches the wires and finds an entrance between the indiarubber - pierces the indiarubber, or gets into the indiarubber, what is known as a short circuit of the line immediately occurs. Is that right? - Yes, they fuse.
They fuse, and the lights go out? - Yes.
So that as the "Titanic" gradually sank short circuits would be produced and there could only be light remaining in the portion above water? - That is so.
At the time that you came up, the only portion lighted was the stern? - Yes.
How many people did you see about there? - About 20 men.
Only 20 men? - In the part of the ship I went to.
You did not see any passengers? - No.
There were none about? - I did not see any.
No officers? - No.
No one at all? - No.
No confusion? - No.
Did you hear any cries at the time? - No, not till the ship was going down.
When you attempted to get into No. 4 boat did you see any people struggling in the water? - No.
None at all? - No.

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Examined by Mr. EDWARDS.

Did you hear any order or any signal to get to your boat station? - No.
Can you say in relation to the fore funnel at what point the ship broke off? - About the second funnel from forward - between the first and second funnel from forward.

Examined by Mr. LEWIS.

Did you hear the band playing on the ship? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. COTTER.

Will you tell us whether there were any fidleys on board the "Titanic"? - I do not know.
You do not know whether there were any fidleys from the stoke-hold? - No.
I suggest to you that the after funnel was simply used in place of fidleys? - There was a ladder to go up the after funnel.
It is a way for the sailors and firemen or anybody from the engine room or stoke-hold to get on deck? - Yes.
Is there any place on the boat deck where the sailors can go and get fresh air, or where do they go to get it? - Sailors and firemen are not allowed on the boat deck, not unless their work lay there.
You do not know that in some ships there is a place for them to go to on the boat deck to get fresh air, and even to smoke? - I could not say.
When you saw the fore end of the boat break off, did the afterend come back suddenly or slowly on to a level keel? - She came back slowly.
You heard the last Witness state that the patent bulk head doors in the stoke-holds had been opened after they had been closed automatically from the bridge? - Yes.
Is it your opinion that, after the forward end had fallen off, the leaving open of these doors caused the afterend of her to sink? - That I could not say.
(Mr. Cotter.) I am only asking for your opinion. These ships, I may state, are supposed to float if they break in two, if the bulk-head doors are all acting as they ought to act.

Examined by Mr. LAING.

How can you tell from your electric shop how the turbine is working? - Because there are two arms come up as the turbine engine stops.
You have to go and look to see? - No, you can turn round and look through the wires in front of you.
When you looked did you find that the turbine had actually stopped? - Yes.
And when you noticed that it was two minutes after the shock? - Yes.

(The Witness withdrew.)

GEORGE CAVELL, Sworn.

Examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL.

Are you a trimmer? - Yes.
And at the time of the accident on the 14th April were you at work? - Yes.
Trimming coal? - Yes.
Can you tell me which section you were in? - No. 4 section.
Were you one of the regular trimmers for No. 4 right through the trip? - Yes.
How many coal bunkers are there in No. 4 section? - There are six doors and four bunkers.
Two on the starboard side and two on the port side? - Yes.
And six doors? - Yes.
How many trimmers are there to a section? - Four trimmers to a section.
So that you would have three mates with you? - Yes.
Had the fires in No. 4 been lighted the first day when the ship started? - Yes.
And had they been burning all the time? - Yes.
At the time this accident happened, do you remember which bunker you were in, starboard side or port side? - Starboard side.
Were you in the bunker at the time? - Yes.
Is that bunker in No. 4 aft of the furnaces of the boilers? - Yes.
The boilers are in front of it? - Yes.
The Solicitor-General: If your Lordship has the plan which we have referred to as No. 3, the one with the tank top, you will see which bunker it was. The bottom plan, which is the tank top plan, shows a thick black line marked "G," which is one of the watertight bulkheads. Does your Lordship see "G"?
The Commissioner: It is not marked "G" on my plan.
The Solicitor-General: It is between No. 4 and No. 3.
The Commissioner: Yes, I see.
The Solicitor-General: I think your Lordship in your plan will find that the word "coal" is written on the starboard side in the place where the bunker is.
The Commissioner: Yes, and on the port side too.
(The Solicitor-General.) Yes. This man was on the starboard side. (To the Witness.) Were you actually in the bunker at the time, Cavell? - Yes.
The Solicitor-General: Your Lordship says there is no "G" on your plan. If your Lordship will look for a moment at the big plan I will have the spot pointed out for you.
The Commissioner: The fact of the matter is this: I have had a plan furnished to me of the "Olympic." They are practically the same - for all purposes they are the same, but I have not got the same letters.
The Solicitor-General: We will find it for you.
The Commissioner: It does not create any confusion.
(The Solicitor-General.) Mr. Rowlatt is just putting the point of the pointer on the bunker. Your Lordship will see that the vertical line is marked "G" there at the bottom. (pointing.) (To the Witness.) That is where you were, Cavell? - Yes.
Was there anybody else with you in the bunker at the time? - No.
Tell us what happened? - I felt a shock, Sir, and with that all the coal round me fell around me. I had a job to get out myself.
You felt a shock and the coal fell in the bunker. Did the shock knock you over? - It did not have time to knock me over. The coal surrounded me before I knew where I was.
You were carried down with the coal? - Yes.
And you got out? - Yes.
You got out into the stokehold there, I suppose? - Yes. After that I came up right up to the bunker door, and then came into the stokehold.
Is that higher up, at a higher level? - Yes.
And you climbed out of that, did you? - Yes.
And you got into the stokehold? - I came down the ladder and came into the stokehold.
On to the plate? - Yes.
When you got there did you find that the signal for "stop" had appeared on a red disc? - Yes.
Who was in charge - who would be the leading hand? - A leading fireman.
In charge of No. 4? - Yes.

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Did you hear him give any orders, or had they been given already? - I never saw him, Sir.
Did you notice - had the dampers been put in by the time you got down? - No.
Now tell us what happened or what you did? - After I came into the stokehold the lights in the stokehold went out.
In No. 4? - Yes.
Did that happen at once or was there a little time before that happened? - It happened as soon as I got into the stokehold.
Out went the lights? - Yes.
Did you notice whether the watertight doors fore and aft of your stokehold had been closed? - I heard the bell go and I knew in a minute what it was for.
You heard the warning bell? - Yes.
And so you knew they had closed? - Yes.
When the lights went out what happened? - I went on deck to see what it was, and I saw people running along wet through with lifebelts in their hands.
Did you go up the alleyway? - My mate said we had struck an iceberg.
How far up did you go; what deck did you go up to? - The alleyway.
Was it along the alleyway that you saw the people going? - Yes.
Were they passengers? - Yes.
(The Commissioner.) And they had lifebelts on? - They had lifebelts in their hands.
(The Solicitor-General.) This alleyway that you came up to, I think, is on E deck. Is it the working alleyway on the port side or is it the one on the starboard side? - On the port side.
And to get up to it from No. 4 - I think we were told about No. 5, that there was a stairway that went over the boilers and came out in the alleyway? - You have to go across the boilers and up an escape ladder.
Is there a different escape ladder from each section? - Yes.
Did you get into the alleyway immediately above No. 4? - Yes.
When you got up into the alleyway and you saw these passengers, was there any light in the alleyway? - Yes.
So that the lights had not gone out there? - No.
You said you saw people going along with lifebelts wet through? - Yes.
And saying that she had struck an iceberg? - Yes.
Can you remember which way they were going? - They were going towards after-way.
Coming from the forward end? - Yes.
Could you tell what class passengers they were? - I should think they were the third-class passengers.
Your Lordship will see - perhaps it is possible for you to see it there on the plan - that the E deck on which the alleyway is, is the E deck, if you carry your eye forwards, which runs forward to the part marked "third-class and crew" (pointing). (To the Witness.) They were coming from there, were they? - Coming from forward to aft.
The Commissioner: The alleyway runs straight aft?
The Solicitor-General: Yes.
The Commissioner: The whole length of the ship?
(The Solicitor-General.) Yes, practically. (To the Witness.) You went up, I understand, to get some lamps. Did you get them? - Yes.
Did you go back to your stokehold? - Yes.
With the lamps? - Yes.
What about the lights in the stokehold? - They were on by the time I got back.
(The Commissioner.) The lights only went out for a few minutes? - Yes.
(The Solicitor-General.) It is the same story as No. 5, your Lordship sees. (To the Witness.) There is a thing I have not asked you that I ought to have asked you before. Up to the time that you left No. 4 and went up to the alleyway, had you seen water in No. 4? - No.
Not coming through the floor, or the sides, or anywhere? - No.
When you came back to No. 4, and you found the lights were on again, did you see any water in No. 4? - No.
When you got back to No. 4, do you remember hearing an order being given? - Yes.
What was it? - Draw fires.
Is that any part of a trimmer's work as a rule? - In an emergency.
In an emergency you would do it, of course? - Yes.
And did you lend a hand to draw the fires in No. 4? - Yes.
And were they drawn? - Partly drawn.
What would there be - 30 furnaces? - Yes.
Were the firemen there helping to draw, too? - Yes.
You say they were only partly drawn? - Yes.
What happened then? - The water started coming up over her stokehold plates.
In No. 4? - Yes.
Did that happen gradually or did it happen suddenly? - It came gradually.
The water - you moved your hand, you raised it; did it seem to come up from below? - Yes.
As far as you saw in No. 4, did any water come in from the side of the ship? - Not so far as I saw.
When the water came up through the plates what was done then? - We stopped as long as we could.
That is right? - And then I thought to myself it was time I went for the escape ladder.
They were still drawing the fires, these men, were they? - Yes.
How high did the water get above the plates they were standing on? How much water were they standing in before they left? - About a foot.
Working up to their knees? - Yes.
Scraping the cinders out? - Yes.
Just one other thing. When you were in No. 4, as you have described, did you see anything of the engineers coming in through the emergency door behind? - No.
You did not notice that? - No.
Through the watertight door? - No.
You know what I am referring to, Cavell, do not you? - Yes.
There was a watertight door behind and a watertight door before you? - Yes.
As far as you knew, and as far as you observed, was the watertight door which was abaft of you raised at all? - No, Sir.
Not as far as you know? - No, Sir.
Of course, there would be a lot of steam in No. 4, would not there? - Yes.
The Commissioner: Are you suggesting that that door was open?
The Solicitor-General: My Lord, we have had evidence that it was. The last Witness said he opened it.
The Commissioner: Which door are you talking about? You are talking about the door between 4 and 5.
The Solicitor-General: I was not, my Lord, with great respect. If I said No. 5 I made a mistake. I said there were two doors, one in front of him, and one behind him.
The Commissioner: The one in front of him was not open.
(The Solicitor-General.) I know, my Lord. I wanted to draw his attention to the difference. (To the Witness.) Just to be quite clear, I am talking, you know, about the one? - Through the passage between the bars.
As far as you know that was not opened when you were there? - I cannot say that.
(The Commissioner.) You mean to say that you do not know? - I do not know.
The Commissioner: That is all it comes to.
(The Solicitor-General.) Yes, my Lord. (To the Witness.) There would be a lot of steam, would not there? - There would.
And were all the men there working as fast as they could? - Yes.

Page 108

This watertight door is in a sort of tunnel, is it not? - Yes.
You say you worked as long as you could, and then you came up the emergency ladder? - Yes.
Where did you go? - I came down again.
What, down into No. 4 again? - Yes.
Why did you do that? - Because I could see nobody about in the alleyway.
(The Commissioner.) Why did you go back? - I thought it was all right, my Lord.
(The Solicitor-General.) You got up again as far as the alleyway; you found nobody in the alleyway; you thought it was all right and went down again? - Yes.
Did anybody else do that with you? - No.
When you came down again from the alleyway to No. 4, were there any other men in No. 4, or had they all gone? - I could not see any.
Was the water the same height, or was it still rising? - I could not say. I never went right to the bottom.
Then you came down, and I suppose you went up again? - Yes.
When you got into the alleyway where did you go? - I went along on to the boat deck.
The top deck? - Yes.
Whereabouts on the boat deck did you go? - Right aft.
Did you see whether the boats had been lowered, or whether they were still there on the boat deck? - There was only two boats left, and one they were lowering.
Two boats left, and one they were lowering? - Yes.
The Commissioner: That is three he means.
(The Solicitor-General.) No, my Lord, I think he means two? - Yes, two.
Two boats left; one had not yet been lowered, and one was being lowered? - Yes.
Did you look at both sides, the port side and the starboard side? - No.
Which side did you look at? - The starboard side.
When you say there were only two boats left you mean there were two boats left on the starboard side? - Yes.
Do you know one way or the other whether there were any left on the port side? - I could not say.
The two boats you refer to were the two right aft? - Right aft.
Which was the one which was being lowered? - The second one from the end.
The last but one? - Yes.
Were there people on the deck? - They were all in the boat, barring five firemen.
Was not there anybody left on the boat deck? - Only the men that lowered the boat.
No women left? - I never saw any.
And the men who were lowering the boats, were they members of the crew? - Yes.
Did you see any officer? - Yes.
Who was he? - I do not know his name.
You do not know which officer it was? - No.
What did you do? - I be alongside the other boat.
I did not quite hear what you said? - I stopped alongside No. 15 boat.
What happened to you after that? - The officer ordered five of us into it.
And you were one of the five? - Yes.
And the boat was lowered? - Yes.
No. 15? - Yes.
No. 15 was the last one; we have not had any evidence about that. It was No. 13 we have had evidence about. Did it get down to the water safely? - We lowered it just aft the boat deck to the first-class. We called out there for women. We got a few there till we got no more, and then we lowered down to the third-class, and we took more till we could get no more.
First of all, you lowered from the boat deck to what you call the first-class? - Yes.
Is that what one sees there, the open deck just below the boat deck (pointing)? - Yes.
When you got there, you say you called out for more women? - Women and children.
You mean called out from the boat? - Yes.
And were there people there? - Only a very few came, Sir.
And when they did come, was there room for them in the boat? - Plenty.
Plenty of room? - Yes.
And they got in? - Yes.
About how many? - About five we got off the first-class.
That is from the first-class deck - A deck? - Yes.
Were there any men on that deck? - I never see any, Sir.
You mean that you took into your boat everybody who came on deck A? - Barring what the officer may have stopped alongside the davits.
The davits would be on the boat deck? - Yes.
Then you were lowered a bit further, were you? - Yes.
What do you mean by saying you were lowered to the third-class? - To the lower deck - here (pointing on the model.).
My Lord, may I just ask him to point out the place, because I think it is a little important to know. Will you show me where your boat got to? You mean here (pointing on the model)? - There (showing.).
(The Commissioner.) Just show me again, please. Go back to the model? - Here (pointing).
(The Solicitor-General.) As it is in this model here it looks as though those decks were shut in with windows and casing. Was that so? - No.
The Commissioner: Well, Sir John, they were perhaps shut in for a certain length with windows, but perhaps the windows stopped at a point. It occurs to me that possibly there were no windows there, though there may have been windows towards the middle of the ship.
The Solicitor-General: Yes, my Lord. There is a boat at any rate which comes down here (showing.).
The Commissioner: But I thought you were suggesting, you know, that the passengers on this deck that he is now talking about could not get on to the boat because of the glass in the windows.
The Solicitor-General: I was not quite clear which deck he meant, my Lord.
The Attorney-General: I understand that these windows are windows that you can open and pull up just like you do in a railway carriage, only that they are bigger. They are to protect the passengers from wind and rain - for shelter purposes.
The Commissioner: I think those windows do not extend the whole length of the ship?
The Solicitor-General: No, they do not.
The Commissioner: And therefore it may be at the place where he was pointing there were no such windows?
(The Solicitor-General.) Probably he can tell us. (To the Witness.) Do you remember whether when you got to this lower deck there were windows that had to be opened, or whether it was clear? - No.
Which was it? - All clear.
Then you called for more people there, did you? - Yes.
And how many people came there? - Crowds of them.
Did more come than you could take in? - No.
For more than you could take in? - No.
How many do you think you took in from the lower deck? - We took in about sixty, Sir.
(The Commissioner.) That is in addition to the five that you had taken from the boat deck, from the upper deck? - Yes.
(The Solicitor-General.) From deck A? - Yes.
Perhaps you can tell us this - when you were ordered in at the boat deck you and five others, was there nobody in the boat already? - No.
It was empty? - Yes.
Then you made the first five to get into it? - Yes.
Then it was lowered to the A deck and you took in about how many? - Five.
About five more? - Yes.
That would make ten? - Yes.

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And then you are lowered to the lower deck, and you take in you think about 60? - Yes.
That would make about 70? - Yes.
Do you say that you took in everybody who came at that time at the lower deck? - Yes.
You left nobody behind? - No, Sir.
Can you tell me about these 60 - first of all were they men or women? - All women and children.
Were there no men about? - Yes, Sir.
You did not take them in? - No, Sir.
Were they on this same lower deck? - Yes.
How was that, were they standing back? - Yes.
Did you see anybody there keeping order? - No.
Were the men passengers, or stewards, or crew, or what? - They seemed to be third-class passengers.
That is what you thought they were? - Yes.
And they were standing back, were they? - Yes.
And as far as you could see were all the women and children from there taken on board? - Yes.
When you say they were third-class passengers what makes you think so? - I generally know the difference between a third-class passenger and a second.
At this rate, you did not take any second-class passengers into your boat? - Not to my knowledge, Sir.
(The Commissioner.) You think that the 60 women you took were all third-class passengers? - Yes, my Lord.
The Solicitor-General: Of course, the deck he is speaking of is, undoubtedly, a second-class deck.
The Commissioner: Yes.
(The Solicitor-General.) That was your impression, was it? - Yes.
These women that you think came from the third-class, were some of them foreigners? - They were Irish girls.
It is a nice question whether they are foreigners or not? Then, your boat, I suppose, was as full as it would hold, was it? - Yes.
Who took charge of it? - One of the firemen.
What is his name? - Diamond [Dymond].
Then there was you, and were there only three others of the crew? - Four.
Four others? - Yes.
Diamond [Dymond] and yourself, and four others? - Three more.
I thought so - Diamond [Dymond], yourself and three others? - Yes.
Were the other three firemen too? - Yes.
You pulled away from the ship a bit? - Yes.
I do not propose to go into the details of this, my Lord, because it is simply duplicating previous evidence, and you were picked up by the "Carpathia"? - Yes.
Had you got any room on your boat to take on board anybody more? - No.
Perhaps I might just ask you this as there is a statement about it. Did you hear, or do you know at all from your No. 4 section what was the pressure of steam you were to get to? - 225 lbs. steam.
Was that the order? - That was not the order. That is what steam there was.
225 lbs.? - Yes.
You must explain it to me; how do you know that? - By the gauge.
Do you mean you read the gauge yourself? - Yes.
The gauge would be near the boiler? - Alongside the boiler.
And when was it do you think that you read that gauge? - Just before I went into the bunker.
You did? - Yes.
Is that your regular course to look at the gauge before you go into the bunker? - No.
But you think you remember that? - Yes.
When was it that you went into the bunker; what was your watch? - 8 to 12 watch.
You started work at 8, did you? - Yes.
Do you remember about the gauge at any other time during this trip? - We had orders to keep 200 lbs. steam.
You heard that those were the orders, to keep 200 lbs.? - Yes.
The Commissioner: Have you no better evidence on this point than this?
The Solicitor-General: I put the question because I saw there was a reference to it in the statement he had made, but I quite recognise it is not the best evidence.
The Attorney-General: All the engineers are drowned. We are getting the best evidence we can.
The Commissioner: Were there any engineers saved?
The Attorney-General: No, all the engineers were drowned. They all remained at the bottom of the vessel.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

Are you quite sure that you noticed on the gauge an indication of 225 lbs. steam? - Yes.
Do you know that those engines are only designed for a working pressure of 215 lbs.? - No.
The boilers, of course, you are referring to? - Yes.
Can you say what length of time elapsed from the collision until you first went into the alleyway when you saw the third-class passengers? - About an hour and a half.
And do you say they seemed to be wet through then? - Oh, no. It was just on two hours by the time I saw them wet through.
How long was it when you went up to the alleyway and saw those third-class passengers and they seemed to be wet through? - I give about two hours for that time.
Two hours had elapsed then? - Yes.
In what direction were those passengers going? - Right aft.
When you found water in this compartment, No. 4, in which you were working were the pumps being used? - I do not know about the pumps.
Could you see when you were leaving compartment No. 4 whether the watertight door had been shut or not? - The door was shut.
You are quite sure it was shut? - Yes.
(The Commissioner.) Which door is this?
(Mr. Scanlan.) Are you referring to the watertight door between compartment 3 and compartment 4? - Between 4 and 5.
The Commissioner: There is no suggestion that that was open.
(Mr. Scanlan.) No, my Lord. (To the Witness.) You know the corresponding watertight door between 3 and 4. Had you sufficient light at the time you were leaving No. 4 by the escape ladder to see whether or not that door was closed? - You cannot see that door from that stokehold.
You could not see it from the stokehold? - No.
(The Commissioner.) It is down a little tunnel? - Yes.
(Mr. Scanlan.) You would not be in a position at any time to see whether it had been opened or not? - No.
Do I gather from what you have told us that the crew in this lifeboat, No. 15, was yourself, Diamond [Dymond] and three firemen? - Yes.
Any sailormen at all? - No sailormen.
Was there anyone in that boat, No. 15, who knew about managing a boat? - Five of we crew did.
Who took charge of her? - Diamond [Dymond].
And is Diamond [Dymond] a trimmer? - A fireman.
Had you sufficient of a crew to row safely? - We done our best, which we did; we managed her.
Had you difficulty? - No, not to say difficulty.
Had you ever been called to a boat station - I take it you had not - on the "Titanic"? - No. The only boat drill as I ever had was when we went to New York, on Sunday morning.
But none on the "Titanic"? - No.
Did you usually have boat drill on the other boats you have been on? - No.
On any boat? - No.
What other boats have you been on? - The "Adriatic," the "Oceanic" and the "Olympic."
All White Star boats? - Yes.
Do you mean to tell us that on none of those boats at any time have you had boat drill? - Only when we have been at New York for the week.
For the week-end? - When we have stopped there a week we go up there on a Sunday.

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Has it not been a practice on the White Star ships to muster the men to their stations? - I never had one yet.
You have never been to a station? - No.
How long have you been on the White Star? - Eighteen months.
Prior to that had you been on any other lines? - No.
That is your whole experience of the sea? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. ROCHE.

What engineer was in charge of your section? - The engineer I think on our watch was Mr. Harrison.
Did you see him when you came out of the bunker and went up the escape ladder? - No.
The fires were still going when you left? - Not going, we drew what we could.
You drew them? - Yes.
Before you went up? - After I came down again - not the first time.
Was Mr. Harrison still there then? - No, Mr. Farquharson was the only engineer I saw.
Mr. Harrison was not there and Mr. Farquharson was then in the engine room? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

There were a great number of third-class passengers on the liner? - Yes.
Did you hear or see anybody giving them instructions where to go to? - The stewards I did.
Did you see stewards? - Yes.
What did you hear them say? - They were telling them to keep calm.
Did they seem to be excited? - The passengers did.
They were proceeding aft? - Yes.
How long was it from the time you saw these passengers in the alleyway until you got into the boat on the boat deck? - About two hours.
Two hours afterwards? - Yes.
During the intervening time you had been down below? - Yes.
You do not know what took place in the interval? - No.
When you came on to the boat deck you saw no one there? - No.
On the first-class deck you took all the women and children? - Yes.
Were there many men left on the third-class deck? - No, very few.
How do you know? - From what we saw there.
You were in the boat? - Yes.
You did not go on to the deck? - No.
So that all your knowledge is confined to what you saw from the boat? - Yes.
You say the men were standing back? - Yes.
Was any one keeping them back? - Not to my knowledge.
Could any one have been keeping them back without you knowing? - No.
You say so. A number of them were Irish? - Yes.
Were not there windows between the third-class deck and where you were in the boat? - No.
No windows; space clear? - Yes.
You could see all who were on the third-class deck? - Yes.
Did you see any people further aft than the position you were in the boat? - No.
Did you look? - No.
Have you any idea as to how many of these passengers were Irish? - Most of them.
Most of the people who were left behind? - I could not say what was left behind.
On the deck? - I cannot say.
But a number of Irish were with you in the boat? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. LEWIS.

With regard to the inspection at Southampton, do the trimmers take part in that at all? - Which?
The ordinary Board of Trade inspection? - No.
They take no part whatever in it? - No.
There is a boat list placed on board? - I never saw it.
Did you look for it? - Yes.
You looked for it and could not see it? - Yes.
Did you have any difficulty in lowering your boat - boat 15? - No.
Was there a plug in your boat? - We tried to find a plug.
Could you find it? - I do not know whether they did or not. I know they asked for matches to find it. Whether they found it or not I could not say.
They must have found something, I suppose. It evidently had a plug in or else you would have gone down? - You could put your hand over it.
Was that done, do you know? - I cannot say.
The Commissioner: The boat did not go to the bottom?
(Mr. Lewis.) No; so I understand, my Lord. (To the Witness.) You do not know whether a cork was thrown into the boat? - No.
Anyway, there was a difficulty in finding the plug. With regard to these third-class passengers, you said when you came from your bunker that there were a large number hurrying on deck? - Yes.
And then when you went to this boat deck there were very few of them? - Yes.
Where do you imagine they went? - I should think they was in the boats. I never see them any more.
If they were not in the boats, where do you think they went. Where were they going? - They were going right aft to the boat deck, the best way.
How many were on watch at the time in your division? - There were ten firemen.
What is a complete watch - 70 or 80, is not it? - Over that.
83? - About that.
How many were saved? - Seven.
Mr. Lewis: 7 out of 83.

Examined by Mr. LAING.

When you left your section No. 4 to go to the boat deck, did you pass along the alleyway? - Yes.
Was there water in it? - No.
None at all? - No.
I mean the last time you went up? - I never saw any.
There were five men in this boat. What did you do - lay to your oars? - Yes.
Was that all you did? - Yes.
That was all you wanted to do, was not it? - Yes.

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Further examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

Did you see any lists like these up on the boat (showing lists.)? - No.
You did not see any? - No.
Do you know whether any of the others had their boat stations? - I cannot say.
Did you never hear anything about boat stations the whole time you were abroad? - No.

(The Witness withdrew.)

(After a short adjournment.)

ALFRED SHIERS, Sworn.

Examined by Mr. BUTLER ASPINALL.

Were you a fireman on the "Titanic" at the time of this casualty? - Yes.
Did you join the ship on the day she left Southampton? - Yes.
Did you see any boat's list? - Not at Southampton.
After you left Southampton did you see any boat's crew list? - Yes, the Sunday afternoon.
On the Sunday? - Yes, after we left Southampton.
Not till Sunday, the day of the accident? - No.
Where did you see it? - Posted outside the forecastle door.
I suppose if you had looked there before you might have seen it before? - No, I saw them put it up.
You saw it being put up on the Sunday? - Yes.
What time on Sunday did you see it being put up? - It was after dinner, but I could not say what time.
At what time do you dine? - At 12 o'clock, as a rule.
Who was putting it up? - One of the engineers.
After it was put up did you look at it and see what your boat was? - Yes.
What was the number of your boat? - No. 3.
At the time of the striking of the iceberg were you off watch? - Yes.
It was the 8 to 12 watch, was it not? You were off watch? - Yes.
Where were you? - In my bunk.
Did you feel the shock? - Yes.
On which side are your quarters, on the port side or the starboard side? - On the starboard side.
What did you hear or feel? Did you hear anything? - The rumble - the shock. It was not much.
What did you do? - I got out of my bunk and went up on the deck.
When you got on deck, did you see anything? - I went on to the forecastle-head first, and underneath.
On the forecastle-head did you see anything? - No.
Did you see any ice? - I did on the deck - when I got out on the deck.
Did you leave the forecastle? - Yes.
And go where? - I left the forecastle and went underneath the forecastle-head.
Did you see ice? - Not there.
Where did you see ice? - On the forewell deck.
Did you have a look round? - Yes.
Did you see anything? - I saw the berg that was going away.
Where was the berg away from you - on the port side or the starboard side, or ahead, or where? - On the starboard quarter, off the stern.
It was off your quarter, was it? - Yes.
How soon after you felt the striking of the iceberg did you see it away on your quarter? - About four or five minutes.
Tell me what you did - that will give me an idea - did you get up at once? - Yes, I was reading in my bunk at the time.
You got up at once? - I went up on the forecastle.
Did you run up? - I walked up; our forecastle is only outside the companion ladder.
Did you see the berg then? - No, not then.
What did you do before you saw it? - Looked towards the window underneath the forecastle-head to see if there was anything there.
That took a short time, I suppose? - It is only just a walk round from our room.
What did you do next? - Came out on the deck; on the starboard side of the deck.
Was it then you saw the berg? - I saw the ice then, and then the berg when I looked over the side.
And then the berg was away on the starboard quarter? - Yes.
About how far off? - I could not say; it was very dim then; I could just see it.
It was a dark night? - Yes, a starry night.
Starry, but dark. When you saw the berg could you judge whether your ship was stopped or going ahead? - When I looked over the side there was a slight way on her; she was moving, but not much.
You were moving through the water? - Yes, but not much.
What did you do after you saw the berg? - I went down to the forecastle again.
Why did you go back to the forecastle? - It was no good stopping on deck. There was nothing there only to see it going away.
You thought there was nothing the matter, is that so? - Yes.
When you got back to the forecastle did you see anything which told you there was something the matter? - Not then.
Did you go down into the forecastle? - Yes.
Did you see anything or hear anything there? - No.
Did you see any water? - Not then.
Did you remain in the forecastle? - Yes.
Did you go back to bed? - No. I sat on my bunk.
How long did you sit on your bunk before you noticed or heard or saw anything? - Not long. There was a fireman there with his toe cut.
Did you do anything with this fireman? - Yes.
Did you take him somewhere? - Yes.
Where did you take him? - To the doctor.
Did that take just a short time? - Yes.
After that what did you do? - There was no doctor there then.
After you had taken him to the doctor's shop, where did you go to? - I came back again to the forecastle.
On this occasion when you got back again to the forecastle, did you see anything? - Yes, the wind coming up through No. 1 hatch; air was forcing the hatch.

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You could see that, could you? - Well, you could hear it there.
Did you see anything? - No, not then.
Did you remain there? - No, I took this man down to the other part of the ship. There was no doctor there at our place, and I took him under the alleyway towards the ship aft.
After that did you go back again to the forecastle? - Yes.
Now on this return to the forecastle, did you see anything? - Yes.
What did you see? - Water coming up through the hatch.
There are two hatchways, I see on the plan. Would it be No. 1 you are speaking of? - Yes.
Where was the water? On what floor or deck was it when you saw it? - I do not know the No. of the deck.
Where your quarters are? Was it on that deck? - No.
Below that? - Below that.
Was it coming up slowly or fast? - Slowly.
Now, seeing that water, did you do anything? - No, we stood about watching it.
How long did you stand about looking at it? - I could not tell you.
Was it a short time? - That I do not know.
What did you do? You stood about, you say? - Yes.
What did you do next? - Went up on the deck again, the forewell deck.
When you got there, did you see any passengers there? - Not on our deck; not on the well deck; only the crew.
What did you do when you got on the forewell deck? - I stood about talking with the crew.
And what happened next? - I went down to the forecastle again.
You returned to the forecastle? - Yes.
When you got back to the forecastle on this occasion, did you again see the water? - No. I went down to put my coat on then, when I went down the next time.
Was there water to be seen when you looked? - Yes.
Had it got higher? - Yes.
A good deal higher? - Yes.
Did you clear out or remain there? - I remained there, and went up on deck again after that.
When you got to the deck on this occasion did you see any people there - any passengers? - No, only the crew, with their lifebelts.
They had their lifebelts on? - Yes, they had had orders to get them then.
Did you remain there? - I went down to the forecastle-head to get my lifebelt.
Did you get it? - No.
Why was that? - There was none there for me.
Where did you go to look for a lifebelt? - On the rack.
They had all gone? - Yes.
Had there been lifebelts there before? - Yes.
You had seen them? - Yes.
The other members of the crew had taken those that were there? - Yes.
Then did you come up again? - I came up on the deck.
Where did you go to then? - I stood round.
Did you hear any orders being given? - Yes, one order came down to go up to the boats.
Did you go up to the boats? - Yes.
Which boat was yours? - No. 3.
Did you go to No. 3? - Yes.
When you got to No. 3 was there anything being done with No. 3? - No.
Was there anybody at No. 3? - No.
Any of the crew? - No, there was only me there.
Were there any passengers there? - Passengers were getting into No. 7 boat.
Was No. 7 boat being looked to? - Yes.
You had got to No. 3. Did you remain at No. 3? - No, I walked down the deck just to look at this boat.
No. 7? - No. 7.
Did you help to get No. 7 away? - I helped to clear the falls.
Were the falls in good working order? - They were new.
Did they work properly? - Yes.
Did you see that boat lowered down? - Yes.
Where did you go to after that? - I came along the deck towards my own boat.
No. 3? - Yes.
When you got to No. 3 boat, your own boat, was there any officer at it? - No.
Any other members of the crew? - Three or four firemen about.
Where was No. 3? Was it in the chocks then, or was it outboard? - Outboard.
Somebody had put it outboard? - Yes.
You got back to it. What happened about it, did you remain at it? - Yes.
What was done with regard to that boat? - Nothing then.
Did you remain there till something was done? - Yes, I was in between the chocks of the two boats.
What was done? - Nothing to that boat.
Yes, I know, but later something was done? - No. 5 boat was filled up.
After No. 5 was filled, did an officer come to No. 3? - No.
Did somebody come to No. 3? - He sung round for any of the crew.
Who sung round for any of the crew? - An officer.
Did some of the crew come and attend to No. 3? - There were only two firemen.
Was No. 3 attended to? - Not then.
The Commissioner: When will you get this man to say something which is material?
Mr. Butler Aspinall: It is very difficult, my Lord.
The Commissioner: He seems to have spent his time running about from one place to another.
(Mr. Butler Aspinall - To the Witness.) Very shortly afterwards did somebody come and attend to No. 3? - I could not say.
Was No. 3 swung out? - It was swung out off the chocks.
It was? - Yes.
Did you see it swung out? - Yes.
Who swung it out? - I could not tell you.
Some of the crew? - I do not know. I was not there then. I was not there when it was swung out.
(The Commissioner.) Did you ever get to No. 3? - Did I get to No. 3? No. 5, Sir.
(Mr. Butler Aspinall.) No. 3 was your boat? - No. 3 was my boat.
(The Commissioner.) Did you ever get to it? - Yes.
(Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Did you see it swung out, or was it swung out when you got there? - It was swung out. All the boats were swung out when we got up there.
Were women and children put into No. 3? - No.
(The Commissioner.) Was anybody put into No. 3? - No.
Did it remain empty from the beginning to the end? - No, it came away after. He asked for any of the crew; he turned and asked me what I was. I said, "A fireman," and he said, "Get into the boat."
(Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Did you get into it? - I got into No. 5 boat.
You did? - Yes, the boat he ordered me to.
You left No. 3 and got into No. 5? - No, I was in between the chocks between No. 3 and No. 5.
(The Commissioner.) Did you ever get into No. 3 at all? - No, there was nobody in that boat then.
You never got into No. 3? - No. We had to stand by the boats.

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(Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Were there any passengers about No. 3 boat? - No, only where they were filling the other boats.
No passengers about No. 3, and no officer or seaman about No. 3? - There might have been seamen; I did not see them there though.
Then you got into No. 5? Was No. 5 lowered? - Yes.
Who were in No. 5? You were, who else? - One other fireman, a steward, and a quartermaster.
And were there some women and children in No. 5? - Women, no children.
Do you know how many women? - No.
Was the boat full or not? - It was not full - as many as it would take off the davits was what the officer said - as many as he thought the boat would take off the davits.
As many as the davits would support, I suppose he means, my Lord - as many as they would safely carry. (To the Witness.) When the boats were lowered were there other women left on the ship? - I never noticed any.
When the boat was lowered what became of the boat? Did it remain close alongside the ship or row off a bit? - We had orders to row off a bit from one of the officers on top.
And were the orders obeyed? - Yes.
Did you see the vessel sink? - Yes.
Did you look to see if there was any light in the boat? - No, there was no light.
Did you look? - No, I did not; it was not my place.
As far as you know, did anybody look for a light? - I could not say who looked before we got up there.
Were there oars in the boat? - Yes.
How many oars were being pulled? - Four.
You did not count the number of the people in the boat? - No.
You do not know? - No.
Then you were picked up by the "Carpathia."
(The Commissioner.) Can you give us any idea of the number of the people in the boat? - I could not.
Were there 100 people in it? - No, my Lord.
Then, you see, you can tell us something. Were there 60? - About 40.
You see you can tell us if you try. Were they women or mixed? - Women.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

You have told the Court that an officer was giving orders on the boat deck shortly before you got into No. 5. Is that so? - Yes.
Do you know who that officer was? - The officer who got into our boat mentioned his name when he gave him orders.
Is this what you are trying to convey, that the officer who sang out for a crew for No. 3 was the quartermaster who got into your boat, No. 5? - No.
Try and recollect. You have spoken of an officer on the boat deck singing out for a crew? - Yes.
What officer was that? - I do not know.
Was it because no crew came for lifeboat No. 3 that you were sent to the lifeboat No. 5? - No, the crew were there.
Was there a crew for No. 3? - No, there was only me there for that boat, and I went for this other boat.
Did the officer sing out for a crew? - He said, "Are there any of the crew here?"
And was there any of the crew there except you? - Me and another fireman and a quartermaster.
How long was it from the collision until that order was given by the officer? - I could not say.
You have no idea at all? - No.
An hour? - It may have been.
Was there confusion amongst the officers and amongst the crew? - No.
If there was no confusion amongst the officers and amongst the crew, how can you account for this, that so long after the collision as the time you speak of when the officers gave the order the crew had not come to their boats? - They were all standing about; they did not think it was serious. So many had come up, those who heard the order.
You spoke of an order having been given down in your quarters to go up to the boat deck? - Not in my quarters - off this deck. It came from the top deck; I do not know who gave the order.
I suppose there must have been confusion among the officers and the men if they could not get proper crews for the boats? - No; there was one boat filled with women when I got up there.
You found on the rack where your lifebelt should have been that there was no lifebelt? - Yes.
Are we to understand from you that there were not provided in your quarters sufficient lifebelts for all the men there? - There was none there for me when I got there.
And you did not see any of your fellow members of the crew having more than one lifebelt? - Yes.
What? - Yes.
Had some of them more than one? - Only the one lifebelt on them and holding one for another man to put on. That is all I saw.
The Attorney-General: We do not want unnecessarily to go into evidence about that, and we have not asked; but is it suggested that there were not enough lifebelts on the boat?
Mr. Scanlan: I only make the suggestion because this Witness in his evidence in chief said that there was no lifebelt for him when he came down to find it.
The Commissioner: What he said, Mr. Scanlan, was, as I understand, that there was a lifebelt for him in his bunk, but when he came, after he had been wandering about over the ship for some time (what he was doing I do not quite know), he found his belt had gone.
The Attorney-General: I only asked my friend because we do not want to go into this evidence with all the Witnesses. I do not think there is any question of there not being sufficient lifebelts on board.
Mr. Scanlan: There has not been any question. The only thing that suggested it was the evidence of this man himself.
The Commissioner: When he went back, after he had been wandering about, he found his belt had gone.
(Mr. Scanlan - To the Witness.) What distance from the ship was the iceberg when you saw it? - I could not say.
After you got on to the forecastle deck? - I could not say; I do not know the distance.
Can you give some idea as to this? What height was the iceberg standing above the water? - I could not say that.
Was it higher than the forecastle? - About that - higher than the forecastle; it looked higher anyway.
I suppose it must have been higher, as some of the ice from it fell on to the fore-well deck? - Yes.
Could you get a good view of it from where you were standing? - No, only dim.
Was there a haze at the time; was the air clear, or was there a haze? - It was hazy.
When I saw that berg it was hazy. The berg was in a haze.
Had you a sufficient crew in No. 5 to man that lifeboat? - No.
There was no light in the boat? - No.

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I suppose you know that if there had been a light provided it would have been found in the usual place? - Yes.
Where is the usual place in a lifeboat? - Underneath one of the thwarts of the boat.
Was it looked for there? - Yes.
By whom? - I do not know. When we got down into the water it was looked for.
Do you know whether this boat had a compass? - No, I never saw one.
Had it a sea anchor? - I do not know that.

Examined by MR. HARBINSON.

Can you tell me how long elapsed from the time of the collision until you got to your boat No. 5? - Over half an hour.
You got into the boat half an hour from the time of the collision? - I should say about three quarters of an hour.
That is to say you got into the boat three quarters of an hour after the collision? - Yes.
And the intervening time you spent going up and down? - Yes, it was after the fireman had cut his foot; I went for the doctor.
After your passages up and down you saw what was going on; during this time that you were going to the forecastle backwards and forwards, you could see what was going on? - I saw men standing about.
Your quarters, I understand, were very near the third-class - near the steerage quarters, in the front of the boat? - On the top part, the first door when you get down in our quarters.
So that the steerage was quite close to you? - Yes.
Did you hear any of the stewards or other officials of the White Star Line giving any instructions to the steerage passengers? - No.
Could such instructions have been given without your hearing them? - Yes.
Did you see any of the stewards or other officials going about while you were going up and down? - On the other deck - when I was going aft, I saw them then.
In the front? - No.
About the forecastle? - No.
And so far as you know, none were given? - No.
Now you say you saw a number of people standing about; who were they? - The crew.
Did you see any of the third-class passengers coming out of their bunks? - No.
None? - No.
During none of the times when you were going up and down? - They were nowhere near the third-class bunks.
Are not they at the front? - No, not that I know of.
Do you know whether or not the male portion of the steerage passengers was in front of the boat, in the forecastle? - No, I do not know.
You do not know? - No.
You never saw any of them? - No.
And you heard no instructions given? - No.
Now who was supposed to give you orders in case of emergency? Under whose control were you supposed to be? - The engineer's.
Were there any engineers about to give you any orders? - No.
How did you come to go to the boat deck? - I was sung off the boat deck.
And it was in answer to this order that you went to the boats? - Yes.
How many officers were up there at the time? - I could not say.
Did you see any? - No.
You do not know who was the officer who told you to get into boat No. 5? - No; he was an officer.
Did you see any officer or anyone giving instructions as to the manning of boat No. 3? - No.
Were there many people on the boat deck at the time - many passengers? - No.
When you went up there? - No.
Were there many about boat No. 5? - That boat was filled.
Boat No. 5 was filled? - Yes.
Do you suggest that all the passengers practically on the boat were being taken away by boat No. 5? - All the women.
Were there men left behind? - Yes.
Many? - I could not say how many.
Did you see men standing about? - Yes.
Were they members of the crew or passengers? - I do not know.
Do you know who manned boat No. 3? - No.
Did you see it lowered? - I saw it come down after us into the water.
How many people were in it? - I could not say.
While your boat was being lowered did it stop at the third-class deck? - No.
It went straight down? - It went straight down.
Was your boat full? - What it would hold off the davits; they would not have any more in the boat.
You do not know whether or not there were any women left behind on any of the decks? - No; it was the second boat lowered.
After you came down you rowed some distance away? - Yes.
Did you see the "Titanic" sink? - Yes.
What did you do when you saw the "Titanic" sink? - I had orders to pull round the front of the boat.
Did you do so? - Yes.
Did you pick up any passengers? - No, we never got so far as that.
Did you hear cries? - The women in the boat stopped that, and the officer who was in charge of the boat -
Stopped them going round? - Officer Pitman told us to pull to the boat.
Was he the officer in charge? - Yes.
Where was he? Was he at an oar? - No, in the stern.
And the women said, "Do not go back"? - "Do not go back."
And what did he say? - We were pulling away and he told us to lay on our oars.
And he did not go back? - We pulled again afterwards.
Did the boat go back? - I do not know where it was; I was not steering the boat.
You were at the oar? - Yes.
As a matter of fact, did you hear cries at this time - Yes.
Many cries? - Wailing noises.
Were they far from you? - I could not tell you the distance.
Could you see any passengers in the water? - No.
You had not a light in the boat? - No.
You did not pick up any passengers out of the water? - No.
Had you room for more passengers? - There was room for more.
There was room in the boat and the officer acting under the instructions of these female passengers refused to allow the boat to go back? - They said if they went back the boat would be swamped.
Who said that? - The passengers - the females in the boat.
What did he do? - He gave orders to lay on our oars.

Page 115

Examined by Mr. LEWIS.

Have you ever received instructions as to what to do in the event of a collision or accident? - No.
None whatever? - No.
As a matter of fact I suppose you would have obeyed only orders given to you by the engineers or any other officer? - Yes.
You were off duty at the time? - Yes.
You sort of went about on a roving commission? - Yes.
All parts of the deck? - I went to the well deck and to the forecastle.
You did not see any disorder at all? - No.
Did you see any of the passengers being left on the decks? - No.
Is it customary to have any officer tell you in any way at all how you are to muster in the event of an accident? - No.
So that as far as you were aware all you had to do was to wander about and await instructions? - We had no instructions. We had no lifeboat drill or anything of that kind.
How long have you been in the employ of the White Star Company? - This is my first voyage with that Company.
So far as the "Titanic" was concerned it had no drill whatever? - No.
But you knew your boat? - Yes, that afternoon.
Where did you get that information from? - The list.
You saw a list? - Yes.
Can you tell me why it was that so few men reported themselves to their boats. Have you any idea at all? You knew your boat number? - Yes.
Can you explain why so few went? - No, I cannot.
Did you leave many in your quarters? Were there many firemen left there when you went up? - There was none in my quarters when I went down for my belt; when I came up again they were on the deck.
When you were in the boat, do I understand you heard the cries and you did not return because the officer was impressed by what the women had said that it was dangerous to go back? - Yes.
I suppose if they had gone back, and there had been a matter of 100 people in the water, it would have been dangerous? - Yes.
Very dangerous? - Yes.
And you think that if the women did impress the officer, Pitman, not to go back, they were using common sense? Would you yourself, if you had been in charge, have gone back had you believed there to be a large number in the water? - I do not know.
You think it would have been very dangerous indeed?

Examined by Mr. COTTER.

How long have you been going to sea? - Eleven years.
What companies have you been in of first-class liners? - The Union Castle Company and the Royal Mail Company.
Do those companies have general boat drill? I mean for all the crew? - Yes.
Have you taken part in general drill? - Yes.
Bulkhead drills as well as boat drills? - Yes.
You knew exactly your station in those companies? - Yes.
You did not have any drill in the White Star Line? - No.
Now how did you know where your boat was? Had you ever been on the boat deck before? - No.
So you simply had to roam round and find where your boat was? - No, I asked.
Whom did you ask? - The quartermaster, when I got up on the deck. I asked him which was the starboard side.
When you got to No. 5 what officer gave the order for you to go into No. 5 boat? - I do not know his name.
The Commissioner: He told us that three or four times.
(Mr. Cotter.) You said that Officer Pitman was in No. 5 boat? - Yes.
Was it Officer Pitman who gave the order? - No; there was another officer there.
Who gave the order to lower the boat? - I do not know who that was.
You do not know? - No.
Did you assist to get the women and children into that boat? - Yes.
Had you any difficulty? - No, I never had a difficulty.
Was the boat far from the ship's side when she was slung out? - About a foot.

Examined by Mr. LAING.

Did the officer who told you to lower away No. 5 tell you what to do when you got to the water? - He did not tell me; he told the other officer.
What did he tell him? - When he got down into the water to take charge of that line of boats as they came down, and stand off at 200 yards.
Stand off the ship 200 yards? - Yes.
And Pitman, I think, was your officer that went in the boat? - Yes.
Was there water in your boat? - No.
Did you look? - Yes.
Were there biscuits? - Yes.
Was the officer on the deck who ordered your No. 5 boat to be lowered picking the crews for the boats? - He turned round and asked you what you were.
And then told you to go into the boat if he selected you? - Yes.

Re-examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

I think I understood you to say that on the Union Castle Line you had had bulkhead drills? - Yes.
How often did you have them? - Every Saturday.
What did you do? - Close the watertight doors, go to the boats, swing them out, and fetch them back inboard again.

(The Witness withdrew.)

Page 116

CHARLES HENDRICKSON, Sworn.

Examined by Mr. ROWLATT.

The Attorney-General: We have a considerable number of these Witnesses, and what we propose to do is to take those who can throw any further light on the matter, but not necessarily through the whole story. We can take them more shortly now to the particular incidents which are of importance in the Inquiry, without going through the whole narrative. Also, my Lord, what we propose to do, as far as we can, is to call at least one Witness from every boat, so that your Lordship will be able to exhaust the story with regard to the boats.

(Mr. Rowlatt.) This man happens to have been in No. 1 boat. (To the Witness.) Were you a leading fireman on the "Titanic"? - Yes.
You joined at Southampton? - Yes.
You do not know anything about the voyage till the accident happened, I suppose? - No.
Do you know how fast the ship was travelling? - 21 knots.
How do you know that? - The revolutions she was turning.
You know what the revolutions were? - Yes.
How do you know that? - The second engineer told me. I made it my business to find out, in the watch previous.
76 revolutions? - Yes.
You say that is 21 knots. If it is not so, we shall hear. You were off watch from 8 to 12 on this Sunday night? - My watch was the 4 to 8 watch.
Was it then you heard about the revolutions? - That watch.
You were in your bunk? - I was asleep when it occurred, and got pulled out.
Were you awakened by the shock? - No.
Who woke you? - One of my mates in the room pulled me out. I was dead to the wide - dead asleep.
Which side of the ship was your bunk on? - The port side.
When your mate woke you up - who was it woke you up? - T. Ford.
He was drowned, was he not? - Yes.
When he woke you up, did you go on deck? - Yes.
Did you see the iceberg? - Yes.
Where was it? - Just abaft the engine room when I got on deck. When I got on deck first I saw a lot of ice on the deck, and I looked out and saw an iceberg astern just abaft the engine room.
You came up very quick? - No, I walked up behind the others who were walking up.
Had the ship nearly stopped then? - She was stopped.
At that time I think you did not think it was very serious? - No.
And you returned below? - Yes.
You were going to turn in? - I was going to turn in and the same man, Ford, came back and said there was water coming in down below, that is down the spiral staircase.
Did you look down the staircase? - Yes.
Did you see the water? - I saw the water rushing in.
Just let us have it clear where that is. Do you see this plan? - Yes.
Is that it (pointing on the plan)? - The lowest of all.
You looked down here and saw it? - Yes, I saw the water rushing in here (pointing on the plan). I saw it running out of the fore part of the pipe tunnel right down at the bottom of the stairs.
Mr. Rowlatt: That is what it is marked upon the map, my Lord - "pipe tunnel."
The Witness: That is the tunnel we go through from our quarters to go into the stokehold.
The Attorney-General: "Fireman's passage and pipe tunnel." You will find it on the same plan as the tank top we were looking at before.
The Commissioner: He got into the firemen's passage I understand?
Mr. Rowlatt: No, he did not, my Lord.
(To the Witness.) You looked down the staircase? - Yes, the staircase leading to the stokehold.
Mr. Rowlatt: Your Lordship sees the spiral there.
(The Commissioner.) Where were you looking? - Down the spiral stairway.
And where did it lead from and to? - From our quarter to the stokehold, No. 11 stokehold, No. 6 section.
(Mr. Rowlatt.) The spiral staircase led down to the bottom of the ship, and from there the fireman's passage and pipe tunnel led along to No. 6 section? - No. 6 section, No. 11 stokehold.
Now where you saw the water coming - you saw it coming from aft, forward into the bottom of the spiral staircase? - From the starboard side.
Are there two staircases? - Only one. There are two staircases, one up and one down, but there is only one our side. I was looking down the one on the port side - not down the staircase, but at the side of the staircase.
You were looking down on the port side of the staircase? - Yes, and saw the water rushing in from the starboard side at the bottom.
Are there two spiral staircases in that part of the ship or one? - Two. They are marked distinctly, one for going down and one for coming up.
Which of the two were you looking down? - I was looking down the port one.
Now is there a communication between the bottom of that spiral staircase and the bottom of the other one? - It is all open, just a handrail to go along.
The water which you saw rushing down there could not have come from forward, could it, because there is a bulkhead across? - It came from the ship's side I am telling you, the starboard side.
You could not see where it was coming in, but you saw it coming from the starboard side? - I saw it coming from the ship's side.
When you want to go aft along the passage, how long is it before you come to a watertight door? - At the bottom of the tunnel.
How far on - how far had you to go before you got to the first stokehold that you come to? - I could not give you the distance. There are two watertight doors there, I know.
There are two bulkheads? - Yes, about 6 feet apart. There is one here, and the other is about 6 feet away from it.
It is marked there "coffer-dam watertight" - do you know what that means? - No.
When you get down to the bottom of this staircase this tunnel runs amidships straight aft? - Yes, straight aft.
Amidships? - Yes.
Then do you go some little way before you come to the first watertight door? - Yes.
Then you go through that and you go about the same distance before you come to the next one? - No, they are about 6 feet apart, those two watertight doors.
Are those two watertight doors both close up against the stokehold? - Yes.
Till you get there you do not have a watertight door before? - No, we get down through the tunnel leading to the stokehold.
Mr. Rowlatt: It is very obscure upon the plan, my Lord.
(The Solicitor-General explains the plan to the Commissioner.)
(The Commissioner.) Now, Mr. Rowlatt, in order that we may have it on the Note, I want you to state the effect of this Witness's evidence; let him listen to you and say whether it is right. (To the Witness.) Have you heard what I said? - Yes, Sir.
The Commissioner: Now, listen to this gentleman and see whether he tells us what you have been saying, and tells it properly.

Page 117

(Mr. Rowlatt.) There are two spiral staircases which go down to the bottom of the ship, one for going down and the other for coming up? - Yes.
And they go down in the same space? - Yes.
And when they get to the bottom they both reach a fireman's passage, which is like a tunnel running amidships fore and aft? - Yes.
And you go along that from the bottom of the spiral staircase aft until you come just before where you get into the foremost stokehold, No. 6 boiler section, and at that point you go through two watertight doors in a space of about 6 feet. Is that right? - Yes, before you reach the stokehold.
And as you are going down that tunnel on your right hand and on your left there will be iron bulkheads? - Yes.
Whether those are watertight or not, I suppose you do not know? - They are iron bulkheads, one on each side.
(The Commissioner.) Are they watertight or not? - I could not tell you that; I do not know.
Mr. Laing: Yes, they are.
The Commissioner: But this Witness does not know it.
(Mr. Rowlatt.) No, my Lord. (To the Witness.) But what I want to get from you is this. You said you saw the water coming from the ship's side; do you mean that. You saw it coming through the ship's side? - No, coming from the ship's side.
That was merely the direction from which you saw it travelling? - Yes.
That is, into the space into which the spiral staircase is descending? - Yes.
You could not tell whether the water was coming through the fore and aft bulkhead at the bottom of the staircase, could you? - No, I could only see the direction it came from.
Was it coming hard? - Yes, it was more than rushing in; it was falling in.
Did it strike you it was coming in at a point which was not at the bottom of the bulkhead? - Well, you could not exactly tell that. There was a lot of water there and from the way it was rushing in you could not exactly tell how it was coming.
Did you go and report that? - Yes.
To whom? - The second engineer.
Do you know what his name was? - I met Mr. Hesketh first, the second engineer, and reported to him.
Did he give you any instructions? - He told me to get some lamps after that and get some men with me, and get some lamps as we come along and take them down below.
Where did you find Mr. Hesketh? - In the working alleyway on the port side of the ship.
And where did you go and get the lamps? - In the engine room.
You went right along the alleyway to the engine room? - I went right through.
When you got the lamps did you go back with them? - I got all the lamps I could get that were ready. I got five, and left four or five men there to get more if they could. Then I came back by the engine room, went along and down the escape to go to No. 6 section. When I got down there I found I could not get any further, the water was up too high; so I came back by the escape again and went to No. 5 section.
Did you go down No. 5? - Yes.
Did you find Mr. Hesketh there? - No. When I got down there I met Mr. Shepherd; he said to me, "You have got the lamps, have not you?" and I said, "Yes, Sir." He said. "That is right, light them, and put them up by the water-gauges of the boilers." So I lit them up and took them up and came down below again, and Mr. Shepherd said to me, "Start drawing fires," and I said, "Yes." I went to pull the fires out when Mr. Harvey came and asked me if I would get some men down.
Mr. Shepherd was an engineer? - Yes.
He told you to draw the fires, and you went to get somebody to help you? - I was going to get the rake to start pulling some of the fires out when Mr. Harvey came to me.
He is an engineer? - He is another Second Assistant; they were both Second Assistants. He asked me to get some men down to get the fires out. I went up top and saw a few and asked them if they would come down, and some went down.
Did you get some more men? - Yes.
You went forward to your quarters again? - Yes, they were the men belonging to the watch, the 8 to 12 watch.
The men whose watch it was below? - Yes.
When you got forward into the firemen's quarters, did you see any more water? - I saw the tarpaulin on No. 2 hatch like a big dome. I could not understand it at the time. I thought there must have been a hole or something in her.
Blown up by the air from below? - Yes.
That was No. 2 hatch? - Yes, I think it is No. 2 hatch - they say it is outside our quarters.
We have heard this about No. 1, but I do not think we have heard it about No. 2. No. 1 hatch is the hatch which is in the open space, I think, outside the forecastle deck, in the well, is it not? - No, not on the well deck; I do not think so.
No. 1 hatch is the one which is right up against the firemen's quarters? - That would be the only hatch. I was given to understand there was one forward of that.
I see you are speaking of No. 1. You are speaking of the one which is up against the firemen's quarters on one deck and up against the trimmers' quarters on another? - Yes.
The Commissioner: Will you point it out on the map?
Mr. Rowlatt: I do not think you will see it from there, my Lord. I think it is this one (pointing).
The Commissioner: Well, that is the hatch.
The Witness: That is the one I mean, the one there.
The one where the learned counsel is pointing now? - Yes. I thought there was one forward of that.
(Mr. Rowlatt.) You say the tarpaulin was blowing up? - Yes, it was like a big dome.
On which deck were you then? - On the same deck where I was looking down the staircase. Our quarters are on the bottom deck of the lot.
The Commissioner: What is the explanation of the tarpaulin being blown up in this way?
(Mr. Rowlatt.) Can you tell us how it happened? - I should say it was water and wind blowing in the hole.
The water pressing the air up? - Yes.
Is that on deck E? Do you know which deck E is? Do you know which deck you were on? - The same deck.
The same as where the alleyway was? - Yes, this hatch is alongside our quarters.
Do you know the trimmers' quarters? - Yes.
Were they on the deck below you? - No, they are above us; everybody is above us. There are only the leading hands and greasers on that one deck.
You are a leading fireman? - Yes.
And you have quarters of your own, the leading fireman? - Yes, and the greasers are on the other side of the ship, the starboard side.
(Mr. Rowlatt.) That is deck G, my Lord; it is the deck just below the waterline. (To the Witness.) Did you see water then or only air? - No water that time.
Did you report that? - I went down to the engine room to report that.
You reported to Mr. Hesketh? - No, Mr. Farquharson.
(The Commissioner.) All these gentlemen are dead, are not they? - Yes.
(Mr. Rowlatt.) He was an engineer, too? - He was the senior Second Engineer.
Did you see any other engineers there? - Yes.
Who were there? - I saw the Chief Engineer and I saw Mr. Harrison, another Second Engineer, and some juniors; I do not know their names.
Where were they going? - They were all just standing around in an ordinary way, standing by their stations.
Can you give us an idea how long this was after the first striking of the berg? - It must have been something like three-quarters of an hour.

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Did you go into the engine room? - Yes, to the bottom platform.
Did you notice the watertight doors? - Yes.
Were they shut or open? - They were both closed; the one leading to the stokehold and the other to the turbine room - they were both closed.
You do not know whether they had been opened or not? - I could see they were shut. That is all I know.
What happened after that? - As soon as I told Mr. Farquharson what had happened he spoke to those engineers, and three of them went one side of the engine room and three the other side. Where they went to I do not know.
You do not know what that was for? - No.
What next? - I came up after that and went on the middle and stood outside the store talking to the storekeeper.
At that time did you think it a serious matter? - No, I did not think it was so serious as it was. It was going down a little by the head then.
You heard an order to go to the boats, did you not, ultimately? - Yes.
Did anything happen before that to speak of? - No; I think I had a bit of trouble to get through the steerage passengers with those lamps. They were in the working alleyway, going along with trunks and bags and portmanteaux.
That is when you went with the lamps? - Yes.
There was a crowd of them? - Yes, a big bunch of them.
When you came aft again were they still there? - Yes, they were working their way aft; they were going towards aft.
They were going aft with their luggage? - Yes.
Did you see where they went to? - No, I did not trouble much about looking. I was on my own duty at the time.
Did you ultimately come up from the engine room? - Yes.
Were the steerage passengers still in the alleyway then? - Yes, they were walking about to and fro; some sitting on their luggage.
There was no panic among them? - No, they were just walking about in an ordinary way.
Did you hear any order to go on deck? - The only order I heard was when I went forward again, and the word came along, "We want a leading hand; all hands get lifebelts and get up on deck.
Did you get your lifebelts? - Yes, we got our lifebelts, and we made our way up.
Did you know what your boat was? - Yes.
How did you find that out? - I saw it printed the same day; I saw the printed list up on the bulkhead.
Was it a long list like this? (Exhibiting a list.) - Yes, just the same.
Where did you see this? - I saw that on the top staircase outside the firemen's quarters.
Do you know when it was put there? - No.
When did you see it first? - I saw it on Sunday morning first.
Do you think you would have seen it if it had been there before? - I could not say that.
(The Commissioner.) What was the number of your boat? - No. 12.
(Mr. Rowlatt.) Did you look for the list? - No, I never looked for it.
You just noticed it? - Yes, I just noticed it and saw my name and saw my boat, and did not trouble any more about it.
Did you go to your boat, No. 12? - Yes.
That was on the port side of the ship, was it not? - Yes.
Pretty well aft? - Yes.
When you got there was it swung out or was it on the chocks? - It was swung out a little, but not out ready for lowering. It was inclined inwards on the ship's side so that anyone could step into it.
Was any officer there? - Yes, when I walked along there I met an officer, who asked me who I was. I said, "A fireman." "All right, my lad," he said, "get along there," and sent me along. I went along aft.
And you went to your own boat? - Yes, and there was not anyone there; there were some people along further, getting other boats away and getting into the boats.
What did you do? - I got hold of a rope with a sailor.
At which boat? - I could not tell you the number.
Did you do that under anybody's orders particularly? - No, on my own.
Did you help to lower away? - Yes, with a sailor.
Was the boat filled? - No, they were getting filled at the time.
Was it filled before you lowered it away? - As far as I could see it was.
Filled from the top deck? - The boat deck.
Did you assist in lowering other boats? - Yes, about five; I assisted in five boats, getting people into them and lowering them.
All the time you were on the boat deck? - Yes.
Were there women and children? - Yes, they were all pretty well mixed up. The women were nearer the ship's side than anyone else, all going along slowly into the boats.
Was there order? - Oh, everything was very quiet, as if nothing had happened.
Were all the women on that deck put into the boats? - All they could get hold of were put into the boats; all the women that could be found that were about there in the vicinity.
Could you see any women that were not put into the boats? - No.
How long were you up on the boat decks lowering boats in this way? - I could not say; somewhere about three-quarters of an hour or an hour, I should think. I was not taking particular notice.
Had the people lifebelts? - As far as I could see, yes.
After you had done all this, what happened then? - As far as I know I saw all those boats away on the port side.
After that what happened next? - I came and could not see anyone round that I knew, so I took a walk round the other side of the deck, and walked up and down there, and heard the captain say they were to get all the women and children into the boats first. Someone came up and said, "Get the boats away as quickly as possible." Whoever the gentleman was I do not know. Then the captain walked along and gave his orders to the officers, whoever were there; they were walking up and down to see if they were being carried out.
This was while the boats were being lowered? - The boats were being lowered at the same time.
Then after the boats were lowered that you had been assisting in, where did you go? - To the starboard side of the deck.
Did you see any people there? - Yes, there were not so many there as there were on the other side in the first place. There were a good many there.
Did you do anything on the starboard side? - The boatswain called me and asked me to lend him a hand with the boat on the after side of the bridge.
That is this little bridge which is there, No. 1 boat, was it not? - Yes.
Did you assist to lower that? - To clear it - to clear the rope away and everything.
Who were there at that boat? - I could not say; I knew the boatswain was there and an officer, and at the time the officer started firing rockets.
Were there some other firemen there? - I found out afterwards there were.
Did you start to get the boat ready? - Yes.
How many of you were there at that time? - I suppose there would be about 20 of us; that would be passengers and crew mixed.
Were there any women? - I think there were two women there.
Could you tell whether the passengers were first, second or third-class, or anything of that sort? - I could not say.

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Were the women put into the boat? - Yes.
Who also was put in the boat? - I think it was three gentlemen and two sailors; and this officer - I do not know who the officer was - called out, "Are there any more women here?" and there was no answer. He said, "How many seamen are there in the boat?" They said, "Two." He said "Six firemen jump in." I do not suppose there were six firemen there. He said to me, "Jump in," and four got in beside myself.
That was all on the boat deck? - On the boat deck.
Was the boat then lowered? - No, it was on the davits; it was swung out ready for lowering. Soon after we got into it the officer sung out, "Are there any more passengers here?" There was no answer, and he started lowering away. That was after the rockets had been fired.
How far did you lower her? - Right the way down.
How many people were in her? - About 12 or 13, I think.
Who was in charge? - One of the seamen as far as I know.
Do you know his name? - Symons, or Simmons.
The Commissioner: Was this No. 12 boat?
(Mr. Rowlatt.) No. 1 boat, the one you see hung out there, the emergency boat. (To the Witness.) Was there any order given to the seaman in charge as to what he was to do with the boat? - Yes; he was told to stand off a little way and come back when called.
Did you stand off? - Yes, we stood off a little way pulling around.
How far? - 150 or 200 yards.
Were you called back? - No.
You simply lay there? - Yes, we lay about there, and pulled about.
Did you see the ship sink? - Yes.
When the ship sank, did you take up anybody else? - No.
Did not you pick up anybody at all? - Nobody at all.
After you left the ship's side? - No. None of them would not go back. I proposed in the boat we should go back, and they would not listen to me.
(The Commissioner.) Who would not? - None of the passengers or anybody else. It was after the ship had gone then.
Am I to understand, then, when you were picked up by the "Carpathia" there were only 12 people on board? - Yes.
(Mr. Rowlatt.) How far off were you when the ship went down? - About 200 yards, as near about as I can make of it.
How many oars had you? - Four.
(The Commissioner.) And of these twelve how many belonged to the crew? - Seven.
Then there were only five passengers? - Five passengers, two seamen I think, and five of us, firemen and trimmers.
Five passengers; what were they, women? - Two women and three men.
And there were only two women in this boat which held 12? - Yes.
(Mr. Rowlatt.) Could you make good way through the water - I suppose you could? - Yes, pretty good.
I must ask you to be a little more clear about it. You understand it is important, so be careful. Who was it objected to pulling back? - Well, the passengers.
(The Commissioner.) There were only five passengers, as I understand, three were men and two were women and then there were seven of the crew? - Yes.
Now did any of the crew object? - No, they never said anything.
Then which of the five passengers objected the women or the three men, or all of them? - I think it was the women objected.
The two women objected? - Yes.
You had plenty of room in the boat? - There was plenty of room for another dozen.
You had plenty of room? - Yes.
Who was in charge of the boat? - A seaman.
What was his name? - Symons or Simmons.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

Can you recollect whether any of the male passengers objected to go back? - No, I cannot remember that.
Did you ascertain in the course of the night who those male passengers were? - I knew afterwards one of their names.
What was the name? - Duff-Gordon.
He was a first-class passenger? - As far as I know.
Did you learn the names of the others? - No, I did not. I think his wife was there - Lady Duff-Gordon.
Those are two. Now who are the others? - I do not know the others.
Was there a servant of Sir Duff-Gordon there? - I do not know.
A valet? - I do not know.
How long before the sinking of the ship was it that No.1 boat was lowered? - About three-quarters of an hour.
I want to put this to you specially: Can you recollect whether this passenger whose name you found out, or any other passenger, objected specially to your going to the assistance of the drowning people? - Only those I have mentioned; no one else; only Sir Duff-Gordon and his wife and this other lady passenger, whoever she was.
Did his wife object? - Yes, they were scared to go back for fear of being swamped.
(The Commissioner.) Will you tell me this: Was there, as far as you know, any danger of No. 1 boat being swamped if you did go back? - It would certainly be dangerous.
Mr. Scanlan: Now tell me this: How would it be dangerous, considering that you had a crew of seven in the boat, to go amongst the people who were screaming for help in the sea?
The Commissioner: Will you ask him if he heard anybody scream? I have not caught that he has said so yet.
(Mr. Scanlan.) Did you hear people screaming for help? - Yes.
Of course I take it that you obeyed the orders you got from the officer and rowed to a distance of 200 yards? - Yes.
Is it not therefore clear that when the "Titanic" sank a number of people who had been left behind were in the water? - Yes.
Just beside you? - Well, they were some distance off; they were not beside us.
Will you tell my Lord what distance they were off? - About 200 yards.
Then the cries of those unfortunate people would be heard by you and everyone in your boat? - Yes, certainly, we all heard them.
You said, and it is to your credit, that you suggested that you should go back to the help of those people? - Yes; I proposed going back and they would not hear of it.
In the presence of those cries for help from the drowning, were you the only one in the boat to propose to go back to the rescue? - I never heard anyone else.
(The Commissioner.) Do you know the names of the other members of the crew who were on board this boat of yours? - I know the names of three or four.

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Give me their names? - There were Simmons [Symons], the Coxswain, myself, and Collins.
What was he? - A fireman - Sheath.
What was he? - A trimmer - Taylor.
What was he? - A fireman.
Who else? - That is all I know the names of.
That is 4, and then yourself? - Yes.
(Mr. Scanlan.) When Lady Duff-Gordon objected did her husband reprove her? - Yes.
What? - Well, he upheld her in what she said.
He did not try to instill courage into her and get you back? - No.
With your knowledge of seamanship you were anxious to go back? - Yes.
And you believed, I presume, that you could quite safely have gone back? - Yes, we could.
1. (The Commissioner.) He has just told me in his opinion it would have been dangerous. It would have been dangerous, but we certainly could have gone back.
(Mr. Scanlan.) If you had taken precautions, there being seven of you there could not you have restricted the number of people you would give shelter and accommodation to so as not to swamp your boat? - That all depends on the way you go in amongst them. We have no lights to see clear to go ahead.
You had no lights? - No.
Do you mean there was no lamp or lantern in the boat? - Not a lamp or lantern.
Not a compass? - No.
Nor biscuits? - Nor biscuits.
Not a sea anchor? - No, there was no sea anchor.
Nor water? - There was a breaker there; whether there was water in it or not I do not know.
(The Commissioner.) Did you look for all those things? - We looked for a light.
Did you look for a compass? - We looked for a compass.
What do you want the compass for? - I do not know; I do not understand them.
Was there anyone there who did understand them? - I suppose so; there were two seamen there.
What did they want the compass for? - To know what latitude and longitude they were in. What does a ship want a compass for?
A ship wants it to navigate? - And it is the same with a boat. A boat would want it to navigate.
1. (Mr. Scanlan.) What time was it when you were taken on board the "Carpathia"?
(The Commissioner.) Wait a minute. Did you look for biscuits? - Yes, they looked for biscuits, I believe. I heard them say there was none there.
Did you look for biscuits? - No.
Did you see anybody look for biscuits? - No, I heard them saying there was none there.
Did anyone want any water? - Not that I know of.
Then you had no occasion to look into the breaker to see if there was water? - No.
Did you look for a sea anchor? - No.
Did anyone look for it? - No.
(Mr. Scanlan.) In the morning, when you were being taken on board the "Carpathia," it was broad daylight, was it not? - Yes.
I suppose then you and everybody else could see whether those things were on board or not? - We never troubled about looking for them then.
Could you tell my Lord the name of the officer on the "Titanic" who ordered the No. 1 lifeboat to be lowered with only five passengers in it? - No, I could not tell you who he was; I did not know him.
Did any officer order you to lower? - The people on the deck were lowering the boat.
(The Commissioner.) You did not lower it, of course? - No.
(Mr. Scanlan.) Did anyone tell you to lower it? - That is a ridiculous question to ask, because we did not lower the boat.
The Commissioner: He would not lower it.
(Mr. Scanlan.) At the time of starting to lower you would be on a level with the boat deck? - Certainly.
Therefore you were in a position to hear whatever order was given for lowering, if any order was given? - I heard the order, as I told you, "Lower away," but we did not lower the boat away.
I recognise that, of course. What I ask you is who gave the order? - An officer.
Can you tell me what officer he was? - No, I cannot; I do not know.
Was he one of the Principal Officers of the ship? - I do not know.
The Commissioner: Now, I want to know - you may ask it, Mr. Scanlan - about the people, if any, who were standing about on the boat deck at the time the order to lower was given.
(Mr. Scanlan - To the Witness.) At the time the order was given to lower No. 1, how many people were on the boat deck? - I did not see any at all there, about us; there were some further along aft.
There were some further along aft? - Yes; other boats went out at the same time.
Were there many people further along aft? - No, there were not a great lot.
I mean on the starboard side? - Yes.
There were people there? - There were people there, yes. They were getting the other boats out.
Were they passengers? - I do not know; I could not see.
Who were they? - I do not know.
(The Commissioner.) Can you tell us this; were they men or women, or mixed? - I think it was all men, I did not see any women.
(Mr. Scanlan.) Did you see any women there? - None at all.
You had just immediately come from the port side to the starboard side, I think? - Before I came to the starboard side, yes.
While you were over on the port side, just immediately before coming to this No. 1 boat, were there a number of people on the port side? - No, there was no one there.
(The Commissioner.) I want to have it quite clear. When you got into No. 1 boat and when the order was given to lower it, were there other people standing about on the deck who could have got into that boat? - No; not where we came away from; there was not any.
Did you call for any? - No.
Did no one call for any to go? - Someone in the boat called out and I believe the officer called out.
What? - "Are there any more women or children about here?" No answer came.
(Mr. Scanlan.) Of course, it was the common knowledge of all of you that there was a great number of people left behind in the boat? - Oh, yes; of course.
And the officer who gave you the order to lower would know that, of course? - I could not say what he knew about it.
You all knew it you say? - We knew it, yes.
Do not you think if the working of the lifeboats had been at all properly organised you could have got a complement of passengers to comfortably fill your boat? - Certainly, yes.
The Commissioner: Now, what do you mean by that? Expand it.
(Mr. Scanlan.) Were those passengers down below in the boat? - What do you mean "down below in the boat"?
Well, a deck lower or two decks lower? - I never noticed any along those decks.
You have said just now that you all knew that at that time when you were going away with five people in your boat, there were a number of passengers left behind? - On the boat deck, I told you.
Where were the passengers that were left behind? - They were about where we were, all along the deck, scattered here and there, and some going in other boats which they were getting away.

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Abaft of where you were? - Yes.
Did no one ask those people to come? - No; they sang out if there were any more women or children there, and there was no answer.
So far as you know, there may have been even women and children amongst the crowd abaft you? - There may have been, I never saw any. If there had been any I might have jumped out myself and helped some of them along. I never saw any.
How many would No. 1 boat have carried? - I should say about 25.
The Commissioner: Is No. 1 one of the emergency boats?
Mr. Scanlan: Yes, my Lord.
The Witness: It is this one here (pointing on the model.).
(Mr. Scanlan.) It is the forward boat. We were told earlier today that one of those boats could accommodate 40 people; do you agree with that? - No, I do not.
Had you a sufficient crew to row your boat? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

That is to say there were 7 of you of the crew to row 5? - Yes, 5 passengers.
It is the duty of the crew to exhaust every resource in order to rescue passengers, is it not? - Yes.
What I do not quite understand is, that there being 7 of the crew, why you did not, despite the protests of these first-class passengers, go back to some of the drowning people? - Well, that is right enough, but the coxswain was in charge of the boat.
The Commissioner: Speak a little louder so that I can hear? - There was a man in charge of the boat; he should know what to do best. It would not do for everybody to be in charge of a boat that is in her. When a man gets in a boat the coxswain takes charge and does everything.
And the coxswain of your boat showed no inclination to pull back? - No, none whatever.
You say that that attitude of his was due to the protests of the Duff-Gordon's? - Yes.
You say you heard cries? - Yes.
Agonising cries? - Yes, terrible cries.
At what distance? - About 200 yards away.
And yet, despite that fact, no effort was made to go in the direction whence those cries proceeded? - No, none at all.
I think you said you saw a number of people on the boat deck at some distance from you? - Yes.
Who was the officer in charge who ordered the seven members of the crew to get into this boat No. 1? - I do not know him.
(The Commissioner.) I cannot understand this. Was there any discussion on board this boat as to whether you should go to these drowning people - any talk? - No, only when I proposed going back, that is all.
Do you mean to tell me that you were the only person that proposed to go back? - I never heard any others.
And to whom did you speak? - Anyone who was there who was listening.
Did you speak to everybody? - I spoke to everyone there; I shouted out in the boat.
Now tell me what each person said. - Those people I have mentioned before, I have told you what they said.
Well, tell me again? - They said it would be too dangerous to go back, we might get swamped.
Who said that? - Sir Duff-Gordon.
Did anyone else say it? - No; his wife as well, that was all.
Those two - two of the five passengers. Did anyone else say it? - I never heard anyone else.
Was it Simmons [Symons] who was in charge of this boat? - Yes.
What did Simmons [Symons] say? - He never said anything.
And after these two people said it would be dangerous what did you say? - I never said any more.
Then am I to understand that because two of the passengers said it would be dangerous you all kept your mouths shut and made no attempt to rescue anybody? - That is right, Sir.
(Mr. Harbinson.) Now, before this boat was launched you say there was a number of people on the boat deck some distance from you? - Yes.
Did you hear of anyone going down to those people, telling them there was room in this boat? - I did not.
You did not suggest to anybody before the boat was launched that its full complement should be taken? - No.
Was the boat lowered straight down? - Yes, to the water.
It did not stop at the third-class deck? - No, it came straight down.
Did you see people on other decks as it was lowered? - I did not notice any.
You knew there must have been hundreds of people on the ship? - There must have been, I know.
Yet this boat was put off under those conditions? - Yes.
And no effort was made when it reached the water to get it filled with passengers? - No, we were told to stand off, that was all.
You told us you saw, some time after the collision, after the impact - a number of third-class passengers as you went down. I think you said you had some trouble with the steerage passengers in the alleyway? - I had no trouble; I had to go through them with those lamps.
You saw them there with their luggage? - Yes.
How long would this have been after the collision? - About three-quarters of an hour.
Which way were they going? - They were going along aft.
Was anybody giving them instructions where to go? - No one at all.
No one at all? - I never saw anyone there, and heard no one.
And you heard no one tell them where to go? - No.
Those people were left to their own resources? - They were going along on their own.
Did the passages seem to be choked? - They were pretty thick; they were not choked.
You did not see anything of these people? - No, nothing at all.
You did not hear any of the stewards reassure them in any way? - I did not see any stewards.
And so far as you could see there was no organisation amongst the members of the crew? - No.
And no directions given to the passengers as to what to do? - No.
The Commissioner: A question of that kind conveys nothing to my mind. What do you mean by saying there was no organisation. How many of the crew did he see?

(Mr. Harbinson - To the Witness.) You did not hear? - No.
Have you heard that over 60 percent of these third-class passengers were drowned? - I do not understand this percentage.

Page 122

Examined by Mr. EDWARDS.

Did you see the second lady get into the boat? - No, I did not.
What age lady was she? - I could not tell you.
Was it in fact Mrs. Astor? - I could not tell you.
Have you heard that it was Mrs. Astor? - No, I do not know her.
Have you seen what purports to be an article by Lady Duff-Gordon making accusations against the crew of this particular boat? - Say that again, will you?
When you were in New York, did you see an article written by Lady Duff-Gordon concerning this boat? - What do you mean, an article?
Well, some writing in a newspaper? - No.
Have you heard that there was such an article? - I heard there was something printed about Lady Duff-Gordon calling everyone down, or something of that.
And calling down the members of your particular crew? - No, I do not think so; I never heard anything about that.
Was any money given to you by any passengers when you got on the "Carpathia"? - Yes.
What did you receive? - An order for £5.
Who was that from? - Duff-Gordon.
What did the other members of the crew get? - The same.

Examined by Mr. LEWIS.

I take it as far as you are concerned you were prepared to go back? - Yes.
The fact that you afterwards received £5 did not weigh with you. You did not know at the time you were to receive £5, I take it? - No.
(The Commissioner.) Are you sure? - Yes.
(Mr. Lewis.) You swear that no offer was made at the time? - No.
(The Commissioner.) Then the present of the £5 came as an agreeable surprise when you got on board the "Carpathia"? - Oh yes, of course. I think it was the day before we docked in New York we got that.
It was on board the "Carpathia"? - Yes.
(Mr. Lewis.) I take it that if there was an arrangement with any of the other members of the crew to do a certain thing for a certain price, they would of necessity give the same sum all round? - Yes.
The Commissioner: You seem to understand all about it. I do not know why they should.
Mr. Lewis: I am putting the question, my Lord.
(The Commissioner.) You do not put a question; you make a statement. If you would put questions it would be far better. (To the Witness.) Did you see this money given to the others? - Yes.
Were you all together when the money was given? - Yes.
Where were you? - On the promenade deck of the "Carpathia."
And who gave it to you? - Duff-Gordon.
Mr. Duff-Gordon? - Yes.
Did he call you all together? - Yes, we all went up together.
Did he call you up? - He sent for us, I believe.
And you all went up? - We all went up.
Did you know what you were going for? - No.
What did you suppose you were going for? - He promised us this present previous to this.
Then when did he promise the present? - After we got on board the "Carpathia," but we did not know what it was.
What did he say when he promised the present? - He said "See me later on, I am too busy now."
No; what did he say when he promised the present? - He said; "I am going to make a little present to the members of the boat's crew."
You are quite sure there was no hint of any present before you got on board the "Carpathia"? - In the early hours of the morning before we were picked up he said he would do something for us.
When was this? - Just before we were picked up, after we sighted the "Carpathia."
Had nothing been said before that? - Not to my knowledge.
(Mr. Lewis.) Was not there any discussion at all regarding the advisability of turning back? - No.
Nothing whatever? - Nothing at all.
You merely said you thought you ought to go back, and there it stopped? - Yes.
I take it you are used as a seaman to obeying orders? - Yes.
You got into the boat with no idea of going off yourself in place of someone else, but you obeyed instructions? - Yes.
You considered that, having made this suggestion to the person in charge, and being used to discipline and orders, so far as you were concerned, the matter was ended? - Yes.
You are used to obeying instructions? - Yes, I have always done.
Does this boat list contain the names of all the members of the crew. I understand you saw a list of your stations? - No, the list we had up was only our own men, our own quarters, firemen and trimmers and greasers.
Just your section? - Yes.
I take it similar lists were placed in other departments, so far as you are aware? - Yes.
They practically embrace the whole of the members of the crew? - Yes.
The crew amounts to something like 900 approximately? - Somewhere about that.
And if it were in the nighttime there would be a large number off duty? - Yes, there would be more off duty at nighttime.
Most of these men would be expected to go to their boat stations if they saw the list and knew their number? - Yes.
Do you know whether the boat accommodation is for just over 1,000? - No.
At any rate you know there is not sufficient boat accommodation to take the whole of the 1000 and the crew? - Yes.
Would you be surprised to know that there is not much more accommodation than sufficient to take the crew if they are all mustered together? - I do not suppose there would be enough to take the crew.
As a matter of fact there was a little more. You do not know who it was gave the order for six firemen to go into this boat? - No, it was an officer. Who he was I do not know.
Do you remember a fire in a coal bunker on board this boat? - Yes.
Is it a common occurrence for fires to take place on boats? - No.
It is not common? - No.
How long have you been on a White Star boat? - About five years.
When did you last see a fire in a coal bunker? - I never saw one before.
It has been suggested that fires in coal bunkers are quite a common occurrence, but you have been five years in the White Star line and have not seen a fire in a coal bunker? - No.
Did you help to get the coal out? - Yes.
Did you hear when the fire commenced? - Yes, I heard it commenced at Belfast.
When did you start getting the coal out? - The first watch we did from Southampton we started to get it out.
How many days would that be after you left Belfast? - I do not know when she left Belfast to the day.
It would be two or three days, I suppose? - I should say so.

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Did it take much time to get the fire down? - It took us right up to the Saturday to get it out.
How long did it take to put the fire itself out? - The fire was not out much before all the coal was out.
The fire was not extinguished until you got the whole of the coal out? - No. I finished the bunker out myself, me and three or four men that were there. We worked everything out.
The bulkhead forms part of the bunker - the side? - Yes, you could see where the bulkhead had been red hot.
You looked at the side after the coal had been taken out? - Yes.
What condition was it in? - You could see where it had been red hot; all the paint and everything was off. It was dented a bit.
It was damaged, at any rate? - Yes, warped.
Was much notice taken of it. Was any attempt made to do anything with it? - I just brushed it off and got some black oil and rubbed over it.
To give it its ordinary appearance? - Yes.
You are not a professional expert and would not be able to express an opinion as to whether that had any effect on the collision? - I could not say that.

Examined by Mr. COTTER.

Can you tell us what are the dimensions of that bunker? - I could not tell you.
Was there any scene at the boat before you got into it or after you had got into it, affecting scenes, I mean, between husbands and wives? - I saw some on the port side.
I mean in your boat? - No.
Did any gentleman come to the side of the boat before you lowered away? - I never noticed anyone. As soon as I got in the boat they started lowering.
Who gave the order to lower? Do you know? - The officer.
You do not know the officer? - No.
Who lowered the boat? - I do not know.
You did not see anybody at the falls? - No; the only man I saw was the boatswain. He said, "Jump into the boat."
Was he standing by? - He was standing by the fall.
Being a petty officer, he has the right to give an order? - Yes, but whether the order came from him or not I do not know; but I do not think it was from him.
You did not know any of these passengers? - No.
Have you seen the papers in New York where it states Mrs. Astor was in that boat, calling it the captain's boat? - No, I never saw that.
When you got on the "Carpathia" did anybody besides Duff-Gordon speak to you out of that list of passengers that were on your boat? - There was one fellow, an American, was talking to us, but nothing in particular, not with regard to the wreck.
No one suggested about giving any money, or anything like that? - No.
As a matter of fact, while you were rowing about during the night there was no suggestion made? You heard none? - No, not then, not till just before we were picked up - after we sighted the "Carpathia."
After you sighted her there was a suggestion? - Yes.
Who made the suggestion? - This Duff-Gordon.
What did he say? - He said he would make us a little present for this and send a wire privately to our homes to let them know we were all right.
And also himself I suppose? - I suppose so.
Did the other lady that was in the boat give you any promise? - No.
She said nothing at all? - No.
Did the American give you any promise? - No.
Sir Robert Finlay: I have communicated with my friend Mr. Aspinall that we desire that this Witness should be detained.
The Commissioner: Yes.
Sir Robert Finlay: Perhaps your Lordship will allow my friend Mr. Laing to examine tomorrow morning.
The Commissioner: Yes.