Page 63

Wreck Commissioners' Court.

SCOTTISH HALL,

BUCKINGHAM GATE,

Wednesday, 8th May, 1912.

PROCEEDINGS

WIITH

THE RIGHT HON. LORD MERSEY,

Wreck Commissioner of the United Kingdom,

WITH

REAR ADMIRAL THE HON. S. A. GOUGH-CALTHORPE, C.V.O., R.N.,

CAPTAIN A. W. CLARKE,

COMMANDER F. C. A. LYON, R.N.R.,

PROFESSOR J. H. BILES, LL.D., D.Sc.,

MR. E. C. CHASTON, R.N.R.

Acting as Assessors.

ON A FORMAL INVESTIGATION

ORDERED BY THE BOARD OF TRADE INTO THE

LOSS OF THE S. S. "TITANIC."

FOURTH DAY.

THE RIGHT HON. SIR RUFUS ISAACS, K.C., M.P. (Attorney-General), SIR JOHN SIMON, K.C., M.P. (Solicitor-General), MR. BUTLER ASPINAL, K.C., MR. S. A. T. ROWLATT and MR. RAYMOND ASQUITH (instructed by SIR R. ELLIS CUNLIFFE, Solicitor to the Board of Trade) appeared as Counsel on behalf of the Board of Trade.

THE RIGHT HON. SIR ROBERT FINLAY, K.C., M.P., MR. P. LAING, K.C., MR. MAURICE HILL., K.C., and MR. NORMAN RAEBURN (instructed by Messrs. Hill, Dickinson and Co.), appeared as counsel on behalf of the White Star line.

MR. THOMAS SCANLAN, M.P. (instructed by Mr. Smith, Solicitor), appeared as Counsel on behalf of the National Sailors' and Firemen's Union of Great Britain and Ireland and of the personal representatives of several deceased members of the crew and of survivors who were members of the Union. (Admitted On application.)

MR. B0TTERELL (instructed by Messrs. Botterell and Roche) appeared on behalf of the Chamber of Shipping of the United Kingdom. (Admitted on application.)

MR. THOMAS LEWIS appeared on behalf of the British Seafarers' Union. (Admitted on application.)

MR. L. S. HOLMES (of Messrs. Miller, Taylor and Holmes, of Liverpool) appeared on behalf of the Imperial Merchant Service Guild. (Admitted on application.)

MR. COTTER appeared on behalf of the National Union of Stewards. (Admitted on application.)

MR. HAMAR GREENWOOD, M.P. (instructed by Messrs. Pritchard and Sons), watched proceedings on behalf of the Allan Line Steamship Company.

MR. HAMAR GREENWOOD, M.P. (instructed by Messrs. William A. Crump and Son), watched proceedings for the Canadian Pacific Railway Company.

MR. ROCHE (instructed by Messrs. Charles G. Bradshaw and Waterson) appeared on behalf of the Marine Engineers' Association. (Admitted on application.)

MR. A. CLEMENT EDWARDS. M.P., appeared on behalf of the Dockers' Union. (Admitted on application.)

MR. W. D. HARBINSON (instructed by Mr. Farrell) appeared on behalf of the third-class passengers. (Admitted on application.)

Page 64

Mr. Harbinson: May it please your Lordship, I desire this morning to renew the application I made to your Lordship yesterday morning on behalf of a section of the crew of the "Titanic," with this modification. My application today, my Lord, is to be appointed by you to represent the third-class passengers, the whole class. We have been in consultation with some of the other gentlemen who have been in communication with the relatives of the deceased, and my solicitor represents the survivors of a great number of Irish passengers, and especially he has personal and direct authority to appear on behalf of two survivors, of two persons, whose evidence, according to the view that has been put before us, is of a very important character. It involves serious issues as between the crew of the "Titanic" and the survivors; and considering the importance of those on whose behalf I ask your Lordship to allow me to appear, considering the number of those whom my solicitors represent, and considering the importance of the class for whom I desire to appear, I ask your Lordship to nominate me on behalf of the third-class passengers. Mr. Farrell, M.P., is the gentleman who raised this question in the House.
The Commissioner: Is Mr. Farrell the gentleman who is instructing you?
Mr. Harbinson: Yes, my Lord, and his brother is Mr. Farrell, the Member of Parliament who raised this question in the House of Commons. Mr. Farrell, the Member of Parliament, is here.
The Commissioner: Is the Mr. Farrell who is instructing you a solicitor?
Mr. Harbinson: Yes, my Lord.
The Commissioner: Is he a brother of the Mr. Farrell who is in the House of Commons?
Mr. Harbinson: That is so, my Lord.
The Commissioner: Now, who are the two people that you want to have represented here?
Mr. Harbinson: The name is Thomas McCormick, who alleges in his statement -
The Commissioner: Never mind what he alleges. What is the other name?
Mr. Harbinson: The other name is Bernard McCoy.
The Commissioner: And where are they living?
Mr. Harbinson: At the present moment in America.
The Commissioner: Are they coming over here?
Mr. Harbinson: Subject to what your Lordship may say, it was my wish, were I allowed to appear, to apply to your Lordship to have their evidence taken on commission.
The Commissioner: I think I am very unlikely to do that. They are in America?
Mr. Harbinson: That is so, my Lord.
The Commissioner: When did you get instructions to represent them?
Mr. Harbinson: I, my Lord, was instructed two days ago, but probably Mr. Farrell can tell you.
Mr. J. P. Farrell, M. P: I was a colleague of your Lordship in the House of Commons.
The Commissioner: I daresay. When did you get these instructions?
Mr. J. P. Farrell: About three weeks ago from the relatives and the friends in my constituency.
The Commissioner: I am asking about those two gentlemen in America. From whom did you receive instructions?
Mr. J. P. Farrell: From their parents in County Longford, which I represent in the House of Commons.
The Commissioner: Very well, that is all right. And you have their letters?
Mr. J. P. Farrell: Yes.
The Commissioner: Now what are the issues which have been mentioned as being issues between those two gentlemen and the crew?
Mr. J. P. Farrell: They are of the very gravest kind. Thomas McCormack alleges that when swimming in the sea he endeavoured to board two boats and was struck on the head and the hands and shoved back into the sea, and endeavoured to be drowned. That is one charge.
The Commissioner: That gentleman who did it may be guilty of manslaughter for aught I know.
Mr. J. P. Farrell: McCormack was not drowned, my Lord.
The Commissioner: Very well, then he may be guilty of an attempt to commit manslaughter, but I cannot try that.
Mr. J. P. Farrell: Is it not a question for investigation by this Court?
The Commissioner: I do not think so.
Mr. J. P. Farrell: There is another charge we have about a man named McCoy.
The Commissioner: That I do not think comes within my jurisdiction at all. If any crime has been committed by some individual in connection with this unfortunate matter that has to be tried by somebody else.
Mr. J. P. Farrell: But, my Lord, we also appear for others. We have gone to a great deal of expense.
The Commissioner: Now you know, Mr. Farrell, if you will confine yourself to what I think is possibly a legitimate position on your part, there will be no difficulty about it.
Mr. J. P. Farrell: I will accept any suggestion with great pleasure.
The Commissioner: You want to represent, as I understand, not the representatives of two but the representatives of a great number of the passengers on board this vessel.
Mr. J. P. Farrell: Quite so, my Lord.
The Commissioner: Third-class passengers?
Mr. J. P. Farrell: Quite so, my Lord.
The Commissioner: I can quite conceive that there may be circumstances in connection with this catastrophe which affected third-class passengers and perhaps did not affect the first-class and the second-class, and if you or your brother, the solicitor, will take up that position and bring before me any matters that particularly affect the third-class passengers I shall be very glad to be assisted by the evidence that he is able to put before me.
Mr. J. P. Farrell: I am obliged to your Lordship.
The Commissioner: But do not turn me into a criminal judge to try charges of attempted manslaughter.
Mr. J. P. Farrell: Very well, my Lord, I will request my brother to get in communication with the others.
The Commissioner: Very well, let that be done as far as Mr. Farrell, your brother, is concerned.
Mr. J. P. Farrell: Will your Lordship allow Mr. Harbinson to appear in the meantime, because witnesses may be passing through the box -
The Commissioner: Is not your brother here at present?
Mr. J. P. Farrell: Not at present.
Mr. Champness: I desire again to mention an application I made last week -
The Commissioner: Will you allow me to finish one thing before I begin another. This gentleman, Mr. Harbinson, can represent what I call your clients, Mr. Farrell.
Mr. J. P. Farrell: I thank your Lordship.
The Commissioner: Until Mr. Farrell arrives, and then if Mr. Farrell chooses to take it out of the hands of this competent gentleman, he can do so.
Mr. Harbinson: I have been instructed directly by Mr. Farrell to appear and also by another London solicitor -
The Commissioner: Do not introduce somebody else.
Mr. J. P. Farrell: In the meantime you will allow Mr. Harbinson to appear.
The Commissioner: I will.
Mr. Harbinson: May I appear on behalf of the third-class passengers?
The Commissioner: I hope you do; but I will tell you this: I am not going to allow you to appear on behalf of some of them and somebody else for another group and another person on behalf of another group. I must have only one representative of the third-class passengers.
Mr. J. P. Farrell: I am satisfied.
The Commissioner: I quite understand you are satisfied.
Mr. Harbinson: I am prepared, subject to other gentleman's approval, to do this. If he, as well as others, who are interested in the third-class passengers, will call my attention to any evidence or give me any information at their disposal, to make the best use of it I can according to my judgment.

Page 65

The Commissioner: That seems very reasonable, but I cannot be any party to that arrangement.
Mr. Braddock: There were 113 Irish passengers on the "Titanic"; of that numbers, 69 were drowned, and the solicitor who instructs me represents 21 of those passengers.
The Commissioner: Very well, then, put your interests into Mr. Harbinson's hands, and let him look after them.
Mr. J. P. Farrell: I am glad to see there is something in having been fellow Members of the House of Commons.
The Commissioner: That is an insidious compliment.
Mr. Champness: I was afraid there might have been some misunderstanding with regard to those my friend wants to represent. I am appearing on behalf of Irish, Scotch, and English passengers, third-class passengers, although few in number, I understand now your Lordship has granted leave to Mr. Harbinson to represent all the third-class passengers. Is that right?
The Commissioner: Yes.
Mr. Champness: That being so, I ask you to give me leave to represent the first-class passengers' interests.
The Commissioner: The Home Rule Bill is not law yet. I am going to allow them to be all represented together.
The Attorney-General: With regard to the sittings, I have spoken to my friend, Sir Robert, about it, and I hope your Lordship will think it reasonable, that we should at the close of the proceedings on Friday, adjourn till Tuesday. There is a great deal of preparation to be made in connection with it, to put it in as short a fashion as possible before your Lordship. It really makes it shorter to give me a little time to consider. We are all anxious to go to the "Olympic" to see what your Lordship has already seen with the assessors. I am sure it is a considerable assistance in understanding the case, and we shall take advantage of that period to make that visit.
The Commissioner: Very well. Then I shall rise on Friday and not sit again till Tuesday morning.
The Attorney-General: If your Lordship pleases.
The Commissioner: Now, is Sir John Simon here?
The Attorney-General: Yes, my Lord.
The Commissioner: Now, Sir John, will you be kind enough yourself to state what you understand to be the effect of the present Witness' evidence up to this point?
The Solicitor-General: Yes, my Lord.
The Commissioner: I am very sorry to have to ask you to do it, but my mind is in a state of confusion, and I want to clear it up; and I think some of the assessors want an explanation of the matter.
The Solicitor-General: I think I have a view of what he said.
The Commissioner: If you state it to us now we shall be able to follow on with the remainder of his evidence.
The Solicitor-General: My Lord, if I may say so, I think it would greatly help if your Lordship and the Assessors would look for a moment at what Mr. Wilding has just done for me on that model. He has tipped the model so that we can see more of the bottom than we otherwise should, and he has put on that model two pieces of white paper, a long piece which is perpendicular and then a short white piece a little further along. The long piece represents the line of the watertight bulkhead between No. 5 and No. 6. That white line on the outside of the ship starts at the top where the watertight bulkhead begins, and it goes down to the bottom to the place where the watertight bulkhead would join the inner skin of the ship. Your Lordship asked that length, and that length is 40 feet.
The Commissioner: The bulkhead is 40 feet perpendicular.
The Solicitor-General: That is it, my Lord. Then the other piece of paper which is rather more forward is the point on the outside of the ship corresponding to the place where, according to this Witness's evidence the water came in at the moment of the collision.
The Commissioner: Now can you tell me what space that hold opened into.
The Solicitor-General: Yes, my Lord, I can. As I understand, his evidence is to this effect. Immediately in front of that watertight bulkhead which is there indicated is Section No. 6, which is the foremost boiler room of the ship. Immediately behind that perpendicular bulkhead is Section No. 5. The man's evidence begins by his being in No. 6, which is his proper place, and he says he was at work there in No. 6 together with, I think, eight firemen and four trimmers, and the first thing that he testifies to is the appearance of a red disc in No. 6 which, as he knew, indicated that a message had been sent to the engine room to stop. The engine rooms, of course, are further on. That is the first thing he says. Then he says as soon as he sees this red disc appear in his stokehold, which means that the engines had been told to stop, he orders his gang to push in the dampers so as to reduce the draught on the fires. He says that they were in the act of putting those dampers in when the collision occurred, and that he felt it. He says that the moment it occurred, or immediately afterwards, water came into No. 6, where he was standing.
The Commissioner: That is where the small piece of white paper is.
The Solicitor-General: Yes. And this is what I venture to think is the important point. He says that as far as he could judge the water came in at something like 2 feet above the plate level where he was standing. The plate level, Mr. Wilding tells me, there would be something like 18 inches or 2 feet above the top of the tanks; and by that means one is able to tell, Mr. Wilding says, how far that is below the level of the water outside approximately. Mr. Wilding tells me that he estimates that the waterline outside, the level of the sea outside, would be 25 or 26 feet above the stokehold plates. Therefore, if the water came in some 2 feet above the stokehold plates it came in at a point some 23 or 24 feet below the level of the sea.
The Commissioner: The level of the sea would be how many feet below the top of the watertight bulkhead?
The Solicitor-General: Perhaps Mr. Wilding will just tell us. My Lord asks, Mr. Wilding, assuming your figures, how much below the top of the bulkhead the level of the sea would be?
The Commissioner: The waterline?
Mr. Wilding: About 13 or 14 feet. It is the difference between 23 or 24 feet and 40 feet.
The Commissioner: The ship had to sink 13 or 14 feet before the water could get over the bulkhead.
The Solicitor-General: It had to sink that amount at this point.
The Commissioner: But the moment it sank that amount at that point, then supposing the bulkhead was quite firm and strong, the water would come over into the next compartment?
The Solicitor-General: That is so - 13 or 14 feet from the top would bring you to the level of the sea; another 25 or 26 feet would bring you to the plates.
The Commissioner: That makes the 40 feet.
The Solicitor-General: That makes the 40 feet. Then, the Witness goes on to say that upon this water rushing in from the side, as he describes it, he and Mr. Shepherd, who is the second assistant engineer, ran back through the watertight door which was then open, that is to say through the bulkhead into No. 5, and that they had just passed through that open door when the door shut behind them automatically.
The Commissioner: From the bridge.
The Solicitor-General: From the bridge; and that brought him and Mr. Shepherd into No. 5.
The Commissioner: Yes.
The Solicitor-General: Your Lordship may remember we had an earlier Witness, Beauchamp, yesterday, who was a fireman, and who spoke as to the order to close the dampers; he said that the water had come in and he said that he escaped by the emergency ladder.

Page 66

The Commissioner: Yes.
The Solicitor-General: Then, my Lord, this Witness goes on to say that as soon as he got into No. 5 with Mr. Shepherd and the watertight door shut behind him, he looked to see whether water was coming into No. 5, and his evidence is that a certain amount of water was coming in immediately behind this bulkhead in the empty coal bunker.
The Commissioner: Yes, through the skin of the ship.
The Solicitor-General: I understand through the skin of the ship, but I propose to ask him this morning a question to be sure, because your Lordship will remember the plan shows that immediately behind the bulkhead is a coal bunker on the starboard side and another on the port side, the passage-way being between the two.
The Commissioner: But the watertight bulkhead, as I understand, goes through the middle of the bunker.
The Solicitor-General: There are two bunkers, one on each side, one bunker to serve No. 5, and one bunker to serve No. 6. Of course, there are more bunkers than one.
The Commissioner: Oh, yes; but that particular bunker is divided by the bulkhead.
The Solicitor-General: Yes. He says that particular bunker, that is to say, the bunker immediately behind this bulkhead on the starboard side was empty. The coal had been used; and that he could see into it; and in that way he noticed some water coming in. I propose this morning to ask him another question about that, because I am not clear as to how it came to be stopped. Then he went on to say that in addition to Mr. Shepherd and himself he found also in No. 5 two others of the engineer's staff; he found Mr. Harvey and Mr. Wilson. He says they were busying themselves about the pumps. He says that orders were given that the other stokers and firemen should go up; he was kept behind, as he says, in case he should be wanted. He says that almost immediately afterwards the lights went out, and that it was his business then to go up by the emergency ladder to the alleyway where he sent a man to the engine room for some lights.
The Commissioner: To get a lamp.
The Solicitor-General: Yes. He says that when this lamp or these lamps came back he took them down to No 5, and almost at the same time the electric light came back. I think the next thing he says is that orders were given to him to get some firemen back in order to draw the fires in No. 5, and that he did get 15 or 20 men to come back, and that they drew the fires; and he says that that took about a quarter of an hour. He says that they had just done this, they had just drawn the fires, when they were ordered up again; that he was then in No. 5 with the engineers; that there was a short wait, and that during that time he was asked to lift a manhole plate from the floor in No. 5. He says that No. 5 was full of steam owing to the fact of the fires having been drawn, water had been thrown on them, and that in the confusion Mr. Shepherd fell into this hole and broke his leg. He says he lifted Mr. Shepherd up and put him in what he calls the pump room which is in the same level, in No. 5, one of the little rooms, and that just as he put him there, suddenly there was a rush of water into No. 5 through what he describes as the pass.
The Commissioner: Between the two boilers?
The Solicitor-General: Yes, my Lord, the pass being the space between the two boilers - a little space, and, as I follow, on the same line as this emergency door, which had already closed. He says it came in very suddenly, and he had to escape, and did escape.
The Commissioner: It came from the direction of No. 6?
The Solicitor-General: Yes, my Lord. Your Lordship will remember you asked him just at the close yesterday whether his impression was that the thing had come with a rush, as though something had given way, and he said that was his impression. I think the only other material evidence up to date is that I asked him whether he had noticed that the ship was tipping, was going down by the head, and he said he had noticed it; and I asked him when it was he first noticed it, and he said that he had first noticed it when the fires were being drawn, and that it got worse. To the best of my recollection, that is the whole.
The Commissioner: I wanted to ask you a question. Can you account for the lights going out and coming on again?
The Solicitor-General: My Lord, his suggestion was that they were changing over from one dynamo to the other.
The Commissioner: There is a sort of reserved dynamo on board, which may be put into operation and which will keep all the lights in what you may call the public part of the vessel alight. It will not keep the lights in the cabins and such like places alight; and it may have been that when the main dynamo stopped, the whole ship was in darkness for a short time. Then when they got the supplementary dynamo to work, the lights would come in the passages and in the engine rooms and in places of that kind.
The Solicitor-General: I did ask him, if your Lordship remembers, whether, when he went up to get the light, he found the lights were also out in the alleyway, and he said, "No; the lights were burning in the alleyway."
The Commissioner: I do not understand it.
The Solicitor-General: It seems to have been a local failure.

FREDERICK BARRETT, Recalled.

Further examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL.

The Attorney-General: Your Lordship has No. 3 plan.
The Commissioner: Yes.

2076. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) Before we go on there are just two things you told us about yesterday that we want a little more information about. First of all, about the lights. You told us yesterday that the electric lights went out in No. 5? - Yes.
2077. And so you were sent to get some lamps? - Yes.
2078. And that you went up the ladder to the alleyway, and then sent along to the engine room? - Yes.
2079. When you got to the alleyway, were the electric lights burning there or had they gone out? - They were burning there.
2080. As far as you know had the electric lights gone out elsewhere in the ship except in No. 5? - That I cannot tell.
2081. You do not know? - No.
2082. Did the electric lights continue to burn in the alleyway until those lamps were brought and you went down again? - When I went down with the lamps the lights were burning in the fireroom again.
2083. The fireroom is the stokehold? - Yes.
2084. How long should you suppose the lights were out in that stokehold? - I could not estimate. After I went up and got the lamps and came back again they were lit.
2085. That would not take very long? - No; you have to run along the alleyway and down the engine room to the stores and come back again, and down the escape ladder.
2086. And of course they would have to find the lamps when they got to the stores? - I could not tell you; I did not go down to the stores.
2087. Now the other thing is this. You told me yesterday that when you got into No. 5 and the watertight door closed behind you, you found that there was some water coming into No. 5? - No. 5 coal bunker.

Page 67

2088. Yes, the coal bunker. Is that the coal bunker immediately behind the watertight bulkhead? - Yes.
2089. Is it the coal bunkers on the starboard side? - On the starboard side.
2090. So that as you came through the watertight door from No. 6 into No. 5 it would be immediately on your left hand? - Immediately on the left hand.
2091. Was it empty? - Yes.
2092. And was the door of it open? - Yes.
2093. So that you could look in? - Yes.
2094. Just tell us, when you did look in, what was it you saw? - I saw water pouring in through the ship's side.
2095. In this bunker? - In this bunker.
2096. In the ship's side in the bunker. At what level was it coming in, as far as you could see? - The coal bunker is about 2 feet below the plates; it was coming about 4 feet higher than the coal bunker - the bottom of the coal bunker is 2 feet below the plates.
      The Solicitor-General: Your Lordship sees that.
      The Commissioner: I understand.
2097. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) So that if it was 4 feet below the bottom of the coal bunker it would be the same level as if it was 2 feet above the plates? - Yes.
2098. And that is the same level as you found it was coming in in No. 5? - In No. 6 and No. 5 about the same level.
2099. Was it coming in the opening in No. 5 as fast as it had been coming into No. 6? - No, Sir.
2100. What is the width of the side of the ship in that coal bunker? The side of the ship is one of the sides of the coal bunkers there. How many feet is it, should you say? What is the width? - From the watertight bulkhead to the other?
2101. Yes. From the watertight bulkhead to the other wall of the bulkhead? - The forward end of the watertight compartment would be about four feet wide, but the after-side was wider.
2102. I am told it would be nine feet wide? - I could not estimate; I am no judge of measurement.
      The Solicitor-General: My Lord, that is the depth of the coal bunker immediately behind the watertight bulkhead, measured along the skin of the ship, fore and aft, nine feet. Your Lordship sees what I mean?
      The Commissioner: Yes.
2103. (The Solicitor-General.) Then you got this wall, nine feet or thereabouts. I want you to tell us, was the water coming through all parts of that or through some part of it only? - Which wall do you mean?
2104. The water is coming through the skin of the ship into the bunker? - Yes.
2105. And the bunker is about nine feet along the side of the ship. Now, I want to know, was the water coming in at this level right across the bunker or only in part of it? - Water was coming in about two feet abaft the watertight bulkhead.
2106. Do you mean that it was coming in from the watertight bulkhead and for two feet back? - No; only from the ship's side. The watertight bulkhead was not damaged.
2107. Was it coming in at one point, or was it coming in for two feet? - I could not estimate exactly how large the hole was.
      The Commissioner: I do not think this Witness can answer your questions. I should place very little reliance upon his evidence, because I do not believe that in these circumstances such particular notice would be taken.
      The Solicitor-General: No, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: And I think you are trying to tax his memory too much.
      The Solicitor-General: If your Lordship pleases.
      The Commissioner: Ordinary people, or even extraordinary people, would not have all these details in their head. I do not think so. It seems to me sufficient that the water was coming in in the forward part of the coal bunker - that is to say, in the part forward of the bulkhead - and was also coming in in the afterpart of the coal bunker and at about the same height - more coming in, it is true, in No. 6 than in No. 5.
      The Solicitor-General: If your Lordship pleases.
      The Commissioner: But evidently coming in from the same wound. I think that is enough.
      The Solicitor-General: The only thing I was concerned about was to see whether one could not ascertain whether this wound ran the whole length of the coal bunker, or whether it only ran back a little way from the watertight bulkhead, and I gather he says it was about 2 feet back; but of course, he cannot say more than that.
      The Commissioner: Very well.
2108. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) That being so, I will only ask you this further question about this part of the case. What was done, if anything was done, about the water that was coming into that coal bunker? - The engineers put pumps on as far as I understand; but, of course, I am only a stoker; I do not know what engineers' work is.
2109. But you were there, and you will help us. They succeeded in getting the water down by pumps? - As far as I was concerned, the plates never got covered while I was there.
2110. (The Commissioner.) I want to ask you about that. How were the pumps worked? - I could not tell you, my Lord.
2111. Cannot some one tell me. The engines had been stopped? - There was steam. They opened the pump by the steam valve in the pump room.
      The Solicitor-General: The only engines that would be stopped would be the engines that actuated the propeller. There is plenty of other machinery in the ship.
      The Commissioner: Then these pumps work notwithstanding that the fires are drawn and the main engine stopped?
      The Solicitor-General: I do not suppose all the fires were drawn, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: I thought all the fires were drawn?
      The Witness: Only one section, my Lord.
      The Solicitor-General: I think, if your Lordship would like to know, Mr. Wilding would be able to tell your Lordship.
      The Commissioner: No, it is my fault; I understand it now.
2112. (The Solicitor-General.) I think that is all I can ask him about that part, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Now then, Barrett, when all that was over, you told us you came up out of No. 5 when the rush came in? - Yes.
2113. Where did you go to? - Up the escape into the main alleyway.
2114. And where did you go to after that? - I walked aft.
2115. Did you go up on the deck? - On the saloon deck I went.
2116. Then above the saloon deck there is a shelter deck, the bridge deck, the promenade deck, and the boat deck? - I call the saloon deck the one under the boat deck.
2117. You got up to the boat deck? - The one underneath the boat deck.
2118. That is called the promenade deck, I think. Were there people there? - I did not see any. I saw some of the stewards, and there were some third-class passengers - men and women. No. 13 boat was pretty well filled when I got there.
2119. No. 13 boat is a boat on the starboard side? - Yes.
2120. It is last but one on the starboard side? - It is last but one on the starboard side.
2121. (The Solicitor-General.) That is the boat that Beauchamp, the fireman, spoke about yesterday, my Lord. (To the Witness.) When you got there was that boat on the level of the boat deck, or was it lower? - Lowered to the deck I was on.
2122. And was that deck immediately below the boat deck? - Yes.
2123. We can see that in the model. It is the last boat but one on the side we are looking at, is it not? - Yes.

Page 68

2124. And you say it was lowered by that time as far as the next deck? - Yes.
2125. Now you said you found stewards there and you mentioned third-class passengers? - Yes.
2126. Men? - Yes.
2127. Women? - Women were coming up.
2128. Women were coming up. Did you see them coming up? - Yes.
2129. Would that be coming up from the steerage? - Coming round from aft to forward.
2130. And moving forward? - They had to go forward to get to the boats.
2131. When you say you saw them coming up, what was it they were doing? Where were they coming? - They were going towards the two boats; there were only the two boats left.
2132. There is a stairway, or a gangway, or something, I suppose, is there? - I cannot say.
2133. You did not actually see them mounting a stairway or a gangway? - No.
2134. When you did there were only two boats left. I know No.13 was one; what was the other one? - No. 15.
2135. That is the last boat on the starboard side? - Yes.
2136. And those other boats on the starboard that were not left, were they in the water? - Which boats?
2137. The others on the starboard side? - I never saw any.
2138. You did not see them? - No.
2139. They had gone? - Yes.
2140. And by this time what was the position of the ship in the water? - Her forecastle-head was not under.
2141. Can you tell us a little more closely about it? Did you notice? - I noticed when I got away in the lifeboat it was not under.
2142. Even when you got away in the lifeboat it was not under? - Even then it was not under.
2143. Now, why did you go to No. 13? I suppose it was the only one? - I took a walk along the deck. I made my way aft because it was no use going forward.
2144. Had you got a particular boat to which you ought to have gone? - I never bothered looking.
2145. (The Commissioner.) With reference to that do the men ever bother to look at these lists that are hung up? - Some do, my Lord, and some do not.
2146. What do the bulk of them do? The bulk of them do not, I suppose? - No, my Lord.
2147. Am I right? - That is right, my Lord.
2148. (The Solicitor-General.) Are you able to tell us the time when you got to No. 13? - No. As a rule a stoker never carries a watch when he is at work.
2149. I got an impression that you could for some reason? - No.
2150. Now when you got to No. 13 just tell us what you found about that boat - whether she was filled or empty, and all that? - She was just on getting filled.
2151. What sort of people were they in her? - Five-sixths were women.
      The Commissioner: This is No. 13?
2152. (The Solicitor-General.) Yes, my Lord, the same boat that Beauchamp spoke of. (To the Witness.) Do you know the fireman Beauchamp? - Yes.
2153. He is in your section, I think? - Yes.
2154. No. 6. Was he already in the boat? - I never took that much notice. I did not notice him in the boat till morning; it was too dark.
2155. Was there any officer in this boat? - No.
2156. After you got up to her did any more people get in? - Yes, there were about three more got in after I got in, and the order was given from the boat deck, "Let no more in that boat; the falls will break."
2157. That order was given from the deck above, I suppose? - From the deck above.
2158. Are you able to tell us who gave you that order? - I could not exactly tell you.
2159. But you heard the order given? - Yes.
2160. When that order was given, "Let no more in that boat," was the boat lowered? - Only just where the people were getting in; it was lowered to the deck below the boat deck.
2161. What happened to it after that? - It was lowered away.
2162. (The Commissioner.) Which deck did you get into the boat from? - From the deck below the boat deck.
2163. Was it lowered partly full and stopped again at your deck? - I could not tell you, my Lord, because the majority were in when I got up.
2164. You mean to say you do not know from what deck the people got into the boat? - I could not tell you.
2165. But you got in from the deck below the boat deck? - Yes.
2166. (The Solicitor-General.) And as I understand, two or three other people got in after you? - Yes.
2167. And then this order was given? - Yes.
2168. I think Beauchamp told us (he was in the boat) that as it was being lowered down the side the main discharge from the engine room threatened to swamp the boat? - Yes.
2169. It was somewhere opposite the rear funnel, was it not? - Yes.
2170. Then there was one other boat on the starboard side still, No.15; what was happening to that at this time? - It was getting lowered about 30 seconds after us. It was coming on top of us.
2171. It was coming on top of you. Just tell us about that shortly? - Yes. When we found the discharge was coming out we stopped lowering and all the hose was tied up in the boat. I had a knife and I cut the hose adrift and shoved two oars over the forward end to shove the lifeboat off the ship's side. We got into the water and there was a bit of a current and it drifted us under No. 15 boat, and I sung out "Let go the after fall." Nobody seemed to realise what I was doing. I walked across the women to cut the fall, and the other fall touched my shoulder.
2172. Supposing the ship was going down by the head and No. 15 boat was being lowered, after No. 13 boat was in the water No. 15 boat would tend to get on the top of No. 13? - Yes.
2173. Then whatever the cause, you say No. 15 was coming on top of you? - Yes.
2174. Did you get clear? - We just got clear.
2175. Then what happened to No. 13, the boat you were in? - We got the oars out. I did not see anybody that was going to take charge of the boat. The rudder was lying in the stern at the bottom, and I shipped the rudder and took charge of the boat till after the "Titanic" sank.
2176. And then did you take charge of her after the "Titanic" sank? - No. I gave the tiller to somebody else because I was too cold; I could not feel my limbs. I had only thin gear on, coming out of the fire room. Some woman put a cloak over me, and I do not know what happened then.
2177. Now can you tell us how many people were in your boat - how many men and how many women and how many of the crew? - I could not tell you exactly.
2178. Tell us as near as you can? - I could give a rough idea - 70 all told.
2179. Can you tell us how many of the crew there were? - I could not; the crew mostly consisted of stewards.
2180. There was yourself and there was Beauchamp the fireman? - Yes. I think there was another fireman, but I am not sure; I cannot say for certain.
2181. There may have been another fireman; that would make a leading stoker and two firemen. Were there some stewards? - Yes.
2182. Do you know how many or about how many? - No idea.
2183. You must have some idea? - Judging by the majority, because they were sitting six on a thwart, two inside of each oar, and the man pulling made a third one. He could not pull; he was only just dipping the oar into the water.
2184. Because they were sitting six on a thwart? - Yes.
2185. You say five-sixths were women? - Yes.
2186. Were there any children? - There were two - I am not sure whether there were two or one.

Page 69

2187. You have told us you saw some third-class passengers coming up to where these boats were, as far as you know. Had you got some of those third-class passengers in your boat? - All the women were getting up in the boat at the last of it, and the women were there till there was no more. The men stood all in one line when I was getting up there. I saw them standing in one line, as if at attention waiting for an order to get into the boat, against the back of the house.
2188. Was there good order on deck? - Yes.
2189. Did you see who was keeping them back, if anybody was? - I did not.
2190. Was there any officer there? - No.
2191. They were keeping good order without him? - Yes.
2192. You say you had got about 70 people in your boat. Did you pick up anybody out of the sea or not? - No.
2193. Had you any room to? - No.
2194. There are two or three questions we ask everybody about these boats; I will put them to you. As far as you know, was there any compass in this boat No. 13? - I did not look.
2195. At any rate, no compass was used as far as you know? - The only thing I looked for was a light.
2196. Was there any light in the boat? - No.
2197. Was there any water? - I did not look.
2198. Biscuits? - I did not look.
2199. I gather, Barrett, really, that you felt the cold so much that you do not remember very much? - No, I remember the ship went down.
2200. You remember the ship going down? - Yes; then I must have fallen asleep.
2201. You said one of the women put a cloak over you? - Yes.
2202. We know that the fires were lit in No. 5, and I suppose in No. 6, your section. Were all the fires lit in the ship? - No.
2203. Do you know how many sections were lit? - The first two days when she left Southampton there were nine boilers out. The next two days there were eight out.
2204. When you say they were out, do you mean they were not lit? - They were not lit.
2205. And on the day of the accident were there eight boilers not in use? - I could not exactly say about how many were not in use. There were either eight or five; I can say sure for five.
2206. Would you know at all anything about the number of revolutions they were making or the pace they were going? - Seventy-five was my order.
2207. Seventy-five were your orders? - Yes.
2208. I do not quite understand what you mean by saying it is your orders? - The second engineer gives orders to me of the revolutions he wants, and I pass the word to all my other men.
2209. Then do you hear in the stoke-room if you are not making the revolutions? - They ring through on the telephone.
2210. And the order was 75 revolutions, was it? - Yes.
2211. Were you making 75? - I could not tell you that because it is a long way to walk. I never used the passage to the engine room.
2212. You never heard a complaint? - No, I heard no complaints.
2213. Can you tell us, is 75 revolutions what you had been doing during that day, or ordered to? - I got the order the day before.
2214. You got the order the day before? - Yes.
2215. On the Saturday; and how many revolutions had you been doing before that? - Just the same, I think.
2216. Then, so far as you know, the order for the number of revolutions was the same up to the accident? - Yes.
2217. Then as far as you know there was no reduction in speed? - There were two main boilers lit up on the Sunday morning, but I could not tell you whether they were connected with the others or not.
2218. You mean two main boilers which had not been lit up before? - Yes, they were lit up.
2219. That is extra? - Yes.
2220. On the Sunday morning? - Yes.
2221. That is why you told me that there had been 8 boilers out and afterwards you thought there were only 5 or 6 out; is that it? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: What he said was 5 boilers, certainly, and perhaps 8.
2222. (The Solicitor-General.) Yes, my Lord, I am much obliged. (To the Witness.) That is what you said, Barrett - you said 5 boilers were out, certainly, and perhaps 8? - Yes, and perhaps 8.
2223. Now, just explain why you say that? - When you light a boiler up it will take 12 hours before you can connect it with the others to get steam on as a rule in a merchant ship as far as my experience goes.
2224. These three, the difference between the 5 and the 8, were they lit up? - Those three were lit up on the Sunday morning.
      The Commissioner: Was it 3 or 2? I wrote down 2 main boilers were lit up on the Sunday morning, and you said 2.

The Solicitor-General: It would not be in his section.
2225. (The Commissioner.) Which was it, 2 or 3? - I could not exactly say.
      The Commissioner: Then we will say 2 or 3.
2226. (The Solicitor-General.) Do you know in which section they were? - In the after section - the next one to the after section. That would be No. 2 section.
2227. In No. 2? - Yes.
2228. Of course that would not be your section? - No.
2229. So I suppose you can only have heard this? - My other leading hand is in charge of that section and he tells me this when he comes by.
2230. What is his name? - Ferris.
2231. (The Solicitor-Genera1.) He says, my Lord, the other leading hand, a man named Ferris, who would be in charge of No. 2, told him this when he came by.(To the Witness.) Was Ferris saved, or not? - He was drowned.
2232. (The Commissioner.) Now I want to know this. Can you tell me when those two or three main boilers were lit on the Sunday morning - about what time? - As near as I could say, 8 o'clock in the morning.
2233. Then they may have been connected that same night? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

2234. In No. 13 lifeboat was there any seaman? - I could not tell you.
2235. How long have you been going to sea? - I have been going to sea over 10 years in the fire-room, but I was on the deck previous to that.
2236. Have you experience of a number of liners? - Yes, I have been in quite a quantity of liners.
2237. Is it usual for an officer to draw the attention of stokers to the stations given to them? - It is usual for the list to get put up.
2238. Can you tell his Lordship whether a list was put up on the "Titanic"? - I never look for that as a rule.
2239. Is it usual on liners to call all hands, including stokers, to muster for boat drill? - About twice a trip - once going to New York and once coming back.
2240. Are firemen called too on these occasions? - Yes.
2241. And there was no such practice or no such muster on this voyage? - No.

Page 70

Examined by Mr. ROCHE.

2242. I want you to answer two or three questions. You saw in your section Shepherd, the engineer No. 6? - Yes.
2243. And the last you saw of him was he had broken his leg and was taken to the pump room? - Yes.
2244. You have told us you saw Second Engineer Hesketh in No. 6? - That was the man who jumped through the watertight door, not Mr. Shepherd.
2245. And you left him in No. 5 also? - I left him in No. 5 also.
2246. And you saw there also two other engineers, Wilson and Harvey? - Yes.
2247. Did you see any other engineers at all? - No.
2248. Did you see any engineers at all on deck? - No; when I went up I saw one of the builders' men.
2249. That is all you can tell me about the engineers. Now I want to ask you one question about the hole in this bunker that you have described to my Lord. I do not suppose you can tell us how big it was, but I expect you can tell us whether the water was coming through in a rush, or was trickling through? - I explained it was not coming through as much as in the other section.
2250. But did it look as if it were a hole, and as if a hole had been made by something outside puncturing the bunker, or did it look as if a rivet had been started by the shock? - That would be a question for an engineer.
2251. You can tell us, I think, by the amount of the flow. Was it pouring through? If you cannot tell us, you cannot? - I cannot explain.
2252. You cannot say how much water was coming through at all? - No.
2253. (The Commissioner.) I do not understand this. Was a teacupful of water coming through? - No.
2254. What was it? - A continual pour of water.
2255. Now, describe the pour of water. It was not like Niagara Falls, I suppose, but try and tell me what it was like? - Just the very same as an ordinary fire hose would come in.

Examined by Mr. HARBINSON.

2256. I understood you to say when you came up on to the deck there were a number of third-class passengers coming out? - Coming around the house.
2257. You did not see whether or not any third-class passengers were coming from the fore part of the ship? - No; I never made an attempt to go forward.
2258. Your impression is that all the passengers in the neighbourhood of boats 13 and 15 were third-class passengers? - Yes; I believe the majority in No. 13 boat were third-class passengers.
2259. All the other boats except 13 and 14 had been launched? - On the starboard side.
2260. Did many passengers remain? - I could not say.
2261. Were there many passengers about on the boat deck that you picked up? - I was not on the boat deck.
2262. On the deck below? - Not many.
2263. Not many? - No.
2264. All the women were put into the boat? - Yes.
2265. Into boat 13? - As many as were there. Boat No. 13 was never lowered until all the women were taken off the deck.
2266. Was boat 15 lowered at this time? - It was lowered to the saloon deck.
2267. How many seamen were in charge of it? - I cannot tell you.
2268. Was it full? - I cannot tell you.
2269. You could not see it? - No.
2270. Were there any boats on the port side at this time? - I cannot say.
2271. Were passengers continuing to go from the deck above? - I cannot say that. They were just coming round as I got into the lifeboat.
2272. Many? - No; one's and two's.
2273. Were they men or women? - The women who came around were put in No. 13 boat.
2274. After No. 13 boat had been launched could you see what took place? - No.
2275. Were there any officers or seamen about at this time? - I cannot say.
2276. You do not remember? - No.

Examined by MR. LEWIS.

2277. How long have you been in the White Star Line employment? - I was sailing out with the Company at Liverpool.
2278. You draw distinction between a boat drill and boat stations? - They do not lower a boat at sea; they only go and muster before the boats.
2279. Have you ever been stationed at your boat at a definite place? - Yes.
2280. Is it the general practice for the men to examine the boat list? - It is. When the list gets put up you might see your name and what boat you are at.
2281. With regard to this boat you left in, I understand you to say about 70 were in the boat? - Yes.
2282. Would you consider that boat safe? - No.
2283. How far from the water was the gunwale? - I should say, as a rough idea, about half a foot.
2284. I take it if it had been at all choppy it would have been extremely dangerous? - Yes.
2285. (The Commissioner.) If it had been bad weather would it have been worthwhile to get into the boats at all? - No.
2286. (Mr. Lewis.) Did you see any other boat? - There was one boat; I hailed one boat.
2287. Why? - Because I thought there was hardly anybody in it.
2288. How could you tell that? - The boat was pretty high out of the water.
2289. Did you get any reply? - They said they were full up.
2290. What height was it out of the water? - Between 3 and 4 feet.
      The Commissioner: Such a question and such an answer produce no effect upon my mind. This man was not busy measuring the amount the other boats were out of the water. He was nearly unconscious.
      Mr. Lewis: I am anxious to know whether this witness hailed another boat, and I am entitled to ask him why he hailed the boat and whether, in his opinion, the boat he hailed was full or not.
      The Commissioner: He has answered that question. Then you asked him how many inches the gunwale of the boat was above the water. I tell you that in my opinion, if he told me, if he answered it, it would produce no effect upon my mind.
      Mr. Lewis: I am satisfied with the answer, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: I do not believe he was measuring such things or thinking about such things.
2291. (Mr. Lewis - To the Witness.) Do you know the number of the boat? - I inquired on board the "Carpathia"; I believe it was No. 1.
2292. Now, with regard to the bunker, you have said this bunker referred to just now was empty - the coal bunker? - Yes.
2293. Were there any other coal bunkers empty forward? - No.
2294. Was this the only one empty? - Yes.
2295. Had it been emptied in the usual way? - No.
2296. Why was it emptied? - My orders were to get it out as soon as possible.

Page 71

2297. When did you receive those orders? - Not very long after the ship left Southampton.
2298. Was there anything wrong? - Yes.
2299. What was wrong? - The bunker was a-fire.
2300. Shortly after you left Southampton -
      The Commissioner: Now how is this relevant to this Inquiry.
2301. Shortly after you left Southampton - I'll put another question or two, and you will see why I think it is relevant. (To the Witness.) How long did it take them to work the coal out? - Saturday.
2302. The whole Saturday. What condition was the watertight bulkhead in? - It was the idea to get the bunker out. The chief engineer, Mr. Bell, gave me orders: "Builder's men wanted to inspect that bulkhead."
2303. The bulkhead forms the side of the bunker.
2304. What was the condition of the bulkhead running through the bunker? - It was damaged from the bottom.
2305. Badly damaged? - The bottom of the watertight compartment was dinged aft and the other part was dinged forward.
2306. (The Commissioner.) What do you attribute that to? - The fire.
2307. Do you mean to say the firing of the coal would dinge the bulkhead? - Yes.
2308. (Mr. Lewis.) This is the bulkhead between sections 5 and 6? - Yes.

Examined by MR. COTTER.

2309. You said that when she struck the water was two feet above the plate coming in? - Yes. Would not it be better for you to ask a steward? I am a stoker.
      The Commissioner: You must answer the questions.
2310. (Mr. Cotter - To the Witness.) You rushed through the emergency door into the next compartment, No. 5? - Yes.
2311. Now what I want to know is the dimensions of the bunker, how far it extended to amidships - fore and aft 9 feet. Now what was the extension the other way? - I cannot exactly tell you.
      The Attorney-General: I will give you the exact dimensions later.
2312. (Mr. Cotter.) When you looked into the bunker you saw holes through the ship's side? - Yes.
2313. Now seeing that hole was also in No. 6, naturally you would expect it would rip the bulkhead. As a rule when you go from one compartment to another and that door closes automatically, you could open it again? - Yes.
2314. By turning a handle? - Yes.
2315. When you went back again the height of the water was how much? - We never held any door up.
2316. You went up a ladder? - No. About 8 feet of water. As soon as the order was given for men to their stations me and Mr. Shepherd went up the emergency ladder of No. 5 and down No. 6.
2317. There was 8 feet of water there? - Yes.
2318. You had been away how long? - I could not exactly say the time.
2319. Can you give us any idea? - Well, 10 minutes.
2320. So that in 20 minutes it would be 16 feet? - That I cannot say. The upper 8 feet of the ship is bigger than the bottom 8 feet of the ship.
      The Commissioner: I do not think you ought to ask a question of that kind.
      Mr. Cotter: I want to know how long it took for the water to get higher than the top of the escape ladder.
      The Commissioner: That sounds to me like a riddle. It is no use asking him questions of that sort.
2321. (Mr. Cotter - To the Witness.) You say there was a rush of water when you were in No. 5? - Yes.
2322. Have you any idea where the water came from? - No.
2323. No idea at all. Now I am going to ask you a question about the boats. When you were on the promenade deck, the deck under the boat deck, how far from the ship's side was No.13 boat? - I could not say; I could not tell you that.
2324. You say the ship had a list to starboard. I wanted to know how far the boat would be away from the ship's side? - I cannot say.
2325. You say you put some passengers into her. Had you any difficulty in getting the women in? - I never put passengers into her.
2326. Can you tell me who put them in? - I do not know.
      Mr. Pringle: There are two questions which I would like to put to the Witness. First of all, if he saw anything done to stop the hole in No. 5 bunker, and secondly, whether he saw if it was the watertight door or part of the bulkhead which gave way when the water rushed in to No. 5 section.
      The Commissioner: Put them yourself.
2327. (Mr. Pringle - To the Witness.) Did you see anything done to stop the hole which you saw in No. 5 bunker? - I did not.
2328. Did you see whether it was the watertight door or part of the bulkhead which had given way? - No.
2329. You did not see? - No.
2330. (The Commissioner.) You told us there was some fire in that bunker? - Yes.
2331. Soon after you left port? - Yes.
2332. Is it a very uncommon thing for fire to get into a coal bunker in that way? - It is not an uncommon thing.
2333. It happens sometimes? - Yes.
2334. I suppose the proper order is to have that actual bunker emptied as soon as possible? - Yes.
2335. And, therefore, that was all right? - Yes.
2336. Did the fact that there was fire in that bunker in any way conduce to the collision as far as you know? Had it anything to do with it? - I could not say that.
2337. Do you think it had? Do you think that the fire had anything to do with this disaster? - That would be hard to say, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: Very well; perhaps I am asking you a riddle.

Examined by MR. LAING.

2338. Did you work out that bunker yourself? - I was in charge. There were between 8 and 10 men doing it.
2339. Was it fire or only heat? - It was fire.
2340. Did you play upon it? - The hose was going all the time.
2341. And did they get it out by the Saturday? - Yes.
2342. Cleared all out? - Yes.
2343. I want to ask you about this bunker, just a question or two. When you saw the water coming into the bunker in No. 5 section, did you shut the bunker door? - Yes.
2344. The bunker door is not a watertight door? - No.
2345. And did you tell the engineer that you had seen water coming in? - I reported to Mr. Shepherd and he reported to Mr. Hesketh.
2346. And as far as you know you are not able to say whether they were pumping it or not? - No.
2347. All you know is you shut the door and left it? - Yes.
2348. When this rush of water came from the pass, you went up and got in the alleyway? - Yes.
2349. You have told us that was about ten minutes past one, I think? - That is as near as I can recollect.
2350. Was there water on the alleyway? - Just a little.

Page 72

2351. I do not know whether you know - do you know where that must have come from? - No. In my idea, the cause of that water being in the alleyway was some of the lower deck ports being open, and the water reached them and came through the ports.
2352. But to be on the alleyway the water must have been above the level of the watertight bulkhead? - The water was coming down the alleyway from forward.
2353. If there was water on the alleyway it must have been above the watertight bulkhead? - I cannot say; I do not know how high the watertight bulkhead is.
      The Commissioner: Is that so?
2354. (Mr. Laing.) I think so, my Lord; I think that must be so. (To the Witness.) This rush of water which you have described coming from the pass; was it like a fire hose? - No, it was a greater rush than a fire hose.
2355. Can you give us any idea of the volume of water that came in when you were in No. 6? - The pass was filled up.
2356. When you were in No. 6? - No, No. 5.
2357. No, when you were in No. 6; the first rush of water - was that heavy? - Pretty heavy.
2358. With regard to the revolutions, did you keep the same revolutions all Sunday, so far as you know? - Yes.
2359. Up to the time of this disaster? - Yes.

Re-examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

2360. There is only one matter I want to ask you about. You saw the ship go down - the "Titanic"? - Yes.
2361. Had you heard the band playing? - I had not heard the band; my friends told me they heard it; some of my mates said they heard it. I did not hear it.

(The Witness withdrew.)

REGINALD ROBINSON LEE, Sworn.

Examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

The Attorney-General: This is the Witness about whom you asked when my friend the Solicitor-General was examining the look-out man who had been relieved at 10 o'clock. Your Lordship asked whether he was alive.
The Commissioner: I do not know whether there is any significance at all in this evidence of explosions before the sinking of the ship. I do not know what it points to, and I do not know whether it is important or relevant, but you did not ask the last Witness about it.

2362. (The Attorney-General.) I did not think he could tell us anything about it; that is why we did not ask. Your Lordship will appreciate that in regard to a number of the questions we are putting, when all the facts are ascertained they may or may not be relevant, but we thought it right that all the facts should be ascertained, so that then your Lordship can select such as you think relevant and material after hearing it all. (To the Witness.) Are you an able seaman? - Yes.
2363. And were you on the "Titanic" when she sailed in April on her first voyage? - Yes.
2364. You were the look-out man? - Yes.
2365. You have had about 15 or 16 years at sea altogether? - Yes.
2366. Just tell us, in your experience, speaking generally, have you had experience in mail steamers? - Yes.
2367. Are glasses usually supplied to the lookout man in mail steamers? - Not that I know.
2368. Have you acted as look-out man in other ships before the "Titanic"? - Yes.
2369. On mail steamers? - Yes.
2370. Have you ever had glasses for use as look-out man? - Yes, but I do not know whether they were private or supplied by the company.
2371. You have had them, but you do not know whether they were private or not? - No.
2372. Have you found them of use? - They are better than the ordinary eye-sight.
2373. Are they of use at night at all? - Certainly, night glasses.
2374. I think I caught what you said just now, "night glasses"? - Yes.
2375. There are different glasses used at night from those used in the day; is that right? - Well, they are called that by the trade, I believe.
2376. Glasses to be used at night? - Yes.
2377. Do you know whether they are supplied in any other vessels of the White Star Line? - I cannot say they are for certainty, but my mate in the crow's-nest, who was for four years in the "Oceanic" as look-out man, told me they had them there.
2378. Who is your mate in the crow's-nest? - Fleet.
2379. (The Commissioner.) Fleet told you they were in the "Oceanic"? - They used them there.
2380. (The Attorney-General.) Were there any on the "Titanic? - No, not for our use anyway.
2381. Was there any place in the crow's-nest for glasses? - Yes.
2382. On the "Titanic"? - Yes, there was - a small box.
2383. There was a box in the crow's-nest? - Yes.
2384. If I understand you aright, there was a box there for glasses, but no glasses in the box? - I could not tell you if they were for glasses, but there was a box there that would hold glasses.
2385. Did you look for glasses at all in the crow's-nest? - We asked for them.
2386. On the "Titanic"? - Yes. I did not personally ask for them, but one of the other fellows did, and they said there were none for us.
2387. Who was the one of the other fellows who asked for them, do you know? - Simmons [Symons] or Jewell; I cannot be sure which one it was.
2388. I think we know Simmons [Symons] was Jewell's mate on the look-out? - Yes.
2389. Fleet was yours? - Yes.
2390. And I think Hogg and Evans were the other two? - Yes.
2391. Did you come on the look-out at 10 o'clock? - Yes.
2392. On Sunday night the 14th April? - Yes.
2393. How long did you remain on the look-out? - What was your duty? - 4 to 6 and 10 to 12.
2394. I suppose that would mean that you and Fleet came on at 10 o'clock? - Yes.
2395. And relieved Simmons [Symons] and Jewell? - Yes.
2396. Did one of you take the starboard side and one the port side of the crow's-nest on the look-out? - I generally took the starboard side and Fleet took the port side.
2397. You were on the starboard side. Do you know whether there was any other look-out than you two? - I could not say. We do not know what orders are given from the bridge.
2398. Then when you relieved Jewell and Simmons [Symons] did they pass any word to you? - Yes, they told us to keep a careful look-out for ice and growlers in particular.
2399. They told you to keep a careful look out for ice and growlers? - Yes; by the officer of the watch before 10 o'clock, Mr. Lightoller.
2400. I think I heard you say you remember that very well? - Yes, I think I do.
2401. What sort of a night was it? - A clear, starry night overhead, but at the time of the accident there was a haze right ahead.

Page 73

2402. At the time of the accident a haze right ahead? - A haze right ahead - in fact it was extending more or less round the horizon. There was no moon.
2403. And no wind? - And no wind whatever, barring what the ship made herself.
2404. Quite a calm sea? - Quite a calm sea.
2405. Was it cold? - Very, freezing.
2406. Colder than you had had it yet on the voyage? - I would not say that - but it was the coldest we had had that voyage, yes.
2407. It was colder that night than ever you had had it that voyage in the "Titanic"? - Yes, on that trip.
2408. Did you notice this haze which you said extended on the horizon when you first came on the look-out, or did it come later? - It was not so distinct then - not to be noticed. You did not really notice it then - not on going on watch, but we had all our work cut out to pierce through it just after we started. My mate happened to pass the remark to me. He said, "Well; if we can see through that we will be lucky." That was when we began to notice there was a haze on the water. There was nothing in sight.
2409. You had been told, of course, to keep a careful look-out for ice, and you were trying to pierce the haze as much as you could? - Yes, to see as much as we could.
2410. At the time you came on watch, up to the moment just before the collision, can you tell us whether there was any difference in the speed at which the vessel was travelling compared with the rest of the voyage. What I mean is, was she going the same speed? - She seemed to be going at the same rate all the way.
2411. Do you know who was in charge on the bridge? - Yes; Mr. Murdoch.
2412. The first officer? - Yes, that was his watch.
2413. There would be other officers on the bridge with him? - Yes.
2414. Do you know who they were? - I think Mr. Moody was there, but I could not say for certain, because when you are up in the nest you do not know.
2415. You would not be able to tell who the officers were? - No, unless you happened to see them.
2416. Did you receive any orders from the bridge at all during this watch? - No. The orders were turned over by the people we relieved.
2417. Those are the orders that you told us of, that you got from Simmons [Symons] and Jewell? - Yes.
2418. May I take it those were the only orders you received during the time you were on watch? - Yes.
2419. Before half-past eleven on that watch - that is, seven bells - had you reported anything at all, do you remember? - There was nothing to be reported.
2420. Then what was the first thing you did report? - The first thing that was reported was after seven bells struck; it was some minutes, it might have been nine or ten minutes afterwards. Three bells were struck by Fleet, warning "Right ahead," and immediately he rung the telephone up to the bridge, "Iceberg right ahead." The reply came back from the bridge, "Thank you."
      The Commissioner: This would be about 11.40.
      The Attorney-General: That is right, my Lord; ten minutes after seven bells.
2421. (The Commissioner.) Seven bells struck, and ten minutes after, about 10 minutes, Fleet struck three bells? - Yes.
2422. And telephoned? - And telephoned to the bridge, "Iceberg right ahead."
2423. And you got an answer, "Thank you"? - "Thank you" was the answer from the bridge.
2424. (The Attorney-General.) I want you to tell the story from this point. You were watching the iceberg? - Yes.
2425. Did you notice what the ship did? - As soon as the reply came back "Thank you," the helm must have been put either hard-a-starboard or very close to it, because she veered to port, and it seemed almost as if she might clear it, but I suppose there was ice under water.
2426. (The Commissioner.) She veered to port. Her helm must have been put hard-a-starboard? - Yes.
2427. (The Attorney-General.) He then said it looked as if she was going to clear it. (To the Witness.) It looked as if she was going to clear it, and then did you feel a blow? - As she struck on the starboard bow there was a certain amount of ice that came on board the ship. That was the forewell deck. It seemed as if she struck just before the foremast.
2428. (The Commissioner.) Did you say anything about the ship striking part of the iceberg under the water? - The formation of the berg is, there is more under water than there is above.
2429. I daresay. What I want to know is, did you say anything just now about the ship striking the iceberg under the water? - I did not hear it.
2430. (The Attorney-General.) He did, my Lord; he said it "Felt as if," and I was trying to get to it. He said it just after he said "I thought she was going to clear it." I think we will get it from him in this way. (To the Witness.) You saw the iceberg as the vessel veered to port, did you? - I saw it before that.
2431. Yes, you had seen it before, but that had been reported? - Yes.
2432. Then you said you saw her head veer to port? - Yes.
2433. Where did you get the iceberg - on what side of you? - On the starboard hand as she was veering to port.
2434. You had the iceberg on your starboard side? - Yes.
2435. You were on the starboard side of the crow's-nest, you told us? - Just at that time I happened to be right in front of the nest, because as the nest is semi-circular the telephone is in the corner of the nest on the starboard side. My mate was telephoning from there, and I was standing in the front of the nest watching the boat.
2436. Do you mean you were standing just about amidships? - Just about amidships in front of the nest.
2437. You were watching the berg. You had got the berg on the starboard side as the vessel's head veered to port? - Yes.
2438. And you watched it? - I watched it.
2439. Now could you give us any idea of what height there was of ice out of the water? I only want to have some idea of it? - It was higher than the forecastle; but I could not say what height was clear of the water.
2440. (The Commissioner.) How high does the forecastle stand out of the water?
      The Attorney-General: I think it is about 60 feet.
      The Commissioner: I do not think it is as much as 60 feet.
      The Attorney-General: I think she drew about 34 feet.
      The Commissioner: I was not thinking about her draught, but how high the forecastle would stand from the water.
2441. (The Attorney-General.) I said 60 ft.; I am told it is about 55 feet. (To the Witness.) Can you give us any idea of the breadth? What did it look like? It was something which was above the forecastle? - It was a dark mass that came through that haze and there was no white appearing until it was just close alongside the ship, and that was just a fringe at the top.
2442. It was a dark mass that appeared, you say? - Through this haze, and as she moved away from it, there was just a white fringe along the top. That was the only white about it, until she passed by, and then you could see she was white; one side of it seemed to be black, and the other side seemed to be white. When I had a look at it going astern it appeared to be white.
2443. At that time the ship would be throwing some light upon it; there were lights on your own ship? - It might have been that.
2444. Can you give us an idea to the best of your ability how far off she was when you passed her to starboard? - She hit us.

Page 74

2445. How far was the vessel from the iceberg? - What did you say?
2446. You have told us your vessel veered to port and then you got the iceberg on your starboard side? - Yes, that is where she hit.
2447. Quite right; that is where she hit, but can you tell us how far the iceberg was from you, this mass that you saw? - It might have been half a mile or more; it might have been less; I could not give you the distance in that peculiar light.
2448. You are speaking of when it was you first saw it? - Yes.
2449. I understand that; you think it might have been half a mile or rather less, and of course you cannot give any better indication than that. I am much obliged to you for that, but it is not quite what I wanted you to tell us. You have told us that she veered to port and then she struck on the starboard side. But when you were looking at her, could you see whether this darkness which you have told us of was any distance from the ship or was it quite close up against the side of the ship? - Close up against the side of the ship on the starboard bow.
2450. Did you see at all how much ice there was that fell on the forewell deck? - I knew there was some there, because I saw it when I went on to the boat deck.
2451. You did not pay particular attention? - No, I had something else to think about.
2452. Give us, to the best of your ability, where it was according to you the vessel struck. I want to get some idea from you? - Just before the foremast. It must have been there because when I went down from the crow's-nest the water was coming into - I do not know whether you call it No. 1 or No. 2 - it was level with here (pointing on the model.) that is about where it was.
2453. That would be just before the foremast. I am going to ask a little more precisely about that? - The water was coming in down below - I do not know whether it is No. 1 or No. 2.
2454. No. 1 or No. 2 what? - Hold - water coming in there down in the firemen's quarters. I was not relieved till 12 o'clock.
      The Commissioner: I am not following this.
2455. (The Attorney-General.) Neither am I, my Lord; I did not even hear it. Do you mind telling us again what you said then? I could not hear you. Try to speak up? - I did not leave there until 12 o'clock. When I went down at 12 o'clock water was coming into that compartment. That was just outside the seamen's quarters, down below.
2456. I think that does help us. Did you know the seamen's mess? - Yes, that is what I am talking about.
2457. That is what I want. Then I know where it is. It was just about there that the water was coming in? - Just outside there. The door is on a level, and the water was coming in down below. The ship was making water down there. You could see it from underneath the tarpaulin; you could look down below and watch the water coming in.
2458. Is No. 1 hatch just opposite the seamen's mess amidships? - Yes.
      The Attorney-General: Your Lordship has that plan, and you will see at once where it is.
      The Witness: This was at 12 o'clock though.
2459. That is what you saw at 12 o'clock? - When I came down from aloft, yes.
2460. Did you see the water coming in? - Yes, I could hear it, and then I looked down to see what it was, and it was water pouring in from the ship's side or the bottom, anyway.
2461. Which side? - The starboard side apparently.
2462. Where did you see the water coming in? - It was coming on the deck down there.
2463. What do you mean by that? - Down in the firemen's quarters.
2464. On the starboard side of the firemen's quarters; is that right? - Well, it is amidships there; their quarters are down below there. Perhaps it is the deck below that.
2465. I do not know whether you understand it. You know where the seamen's mess is? - Yes.
2466. That is on the port side is it not? - That is on the port side.
2467. Is the firemen's mess on the starboard side? - Oh, I mean down below, on the deck below there. If you look you will see; there are firemen's quarters down there.
2468. The quarters are below that? - Yes.
2469. That gives us the side, at any rate? - I think it is about two decks below that where those other quarters are.
2470. Yes, you are quite right. I think we can follow it from the plan: First of all, there is a deck where there are the seamen's messes and the firemen's messes? - That is under the forecastle.
2471. Then below, and again below that, that is in the next deck and the deck under that, there are quarters for the firemen? - Yes.
2472. For the firemen and the greasers and some of the other men. Is that what you mean? - That is where water was coming in then, because the men brought their bags up from there who were going on the 12 to 4 watch, because the watch was coming in there.
2473. Wait a minute. You say the men were bringing up their bags from the one deck? - They could not stay down there with the water coming in.
2474. We understand that, but from what deck was it that they were bringing their bags up? Perhaps we can get at it if you will tell us where they brought the bags to? - I cannot tell you the name of the deck, but from their quarters.
2475. Where did they bring their bags to? - They put them on the forecastle on top of the hatch there, and then they were no good to them; they had to leave them behind.
2476. That was because of the water coming into their quarters where they slept? - That is so.
2477. And is that where you saw the water? - I saw the water coming through - well, I saw water down there.
2478. In their quarters? - I saw it down there as I looked through the top of the hatch. I saw water coming in.
      The Attorney-General: I think it must be No. 1 hatch, my Lord; it might be No. 2.
      Sir Robert Finlay: I think it must be No. 1.
2479. (The Attorney-General - To the Witness.) Was that the most forward hatch? - Yes, I think it was No. 1; it is just outside the seamen's mess.
2480. Yes, that is No. 1. You were looking down that, and looking down there you saw the water? - Yes, the water coming in. That was at 12 o'clock when I went down below.
2481. Could you hear it? - Yes; hear it plainly.
2482. Was it rushing in or simply pouring in? - It was not coming in so fast, but you did not know where it was coming from. It was coming from somewhere else further over to the starboard side; it must have been, but I did not know where it was coming from.
2483. All you could see was that water was coming in from somewhere on the starboard side? - Yes.
2484. And it was getting into the firemen's quarters. That is right, is it not? - Yes.
2485. And getting into their quarters so much that the firemen were driven up, and were carrying up their baggage on to the forecastle deck? - They came up on deck there, and some of them were standing by; they did not know whether they would have to go below or not.
2486. (The Commissioner.) Do you know anything about the lettering of these decks? - Well, there is a boat deck.
2487. Do you know anything about the lettering of them? They are lettered C, D, E, F, and G. Do you know anything about that? - Those are different compartments, I think. There is the boat deck, A deck, B deck, C deck, but I think the other letterings come in for different quarters for the passengers' benefit.
2488. (The Attorney-General.) After you saw that at 12 o'clock what did you do? - I went on the boat deck.
      1. Did you get any orders to go on the boat deck? - No, but I heard the boatswain call the other watch.

Page 75

2489. Did you hear what orders he gave? - Yes, he told everybody to get the boats ready for turning out.
2490. He told everybody? - That was the watch below; they were turned out, and we all went on deck.
2491. That really meant all hands on deck to help uncover the boats? - To get the boats ready for lowering.
2492. Not only those that were on deck and on duty, but those below off duty? - Yes, the watch that had just gone below.
2493. That would be at 12 o'clock; they had just gone below? - Yes.
2494. Did you notice any list of the vessel at all by the time you came down at 12 o'clock from the crow's-nest? - Not enough to take notice of; I did not notice any.
2495. Did you go to work to help prepare the boats for lowering? - Yes.
2496. To which side did you go, to starboard or port? - The starboard side.
2497. Had you a station? - No. 11 boat.
2498. That would be the third from the last, would it not? - Yes, that is right.
2499. Did you know that that was your boat? - Yes, it was put up on the printed order on the ship, outside our quarters.
2500. That is a list? - Yes.
2501. As I understand from that there was a printed list outside your quarters? - Yes.
2502. Then your names would be filled in? - Our names would be filled in.
2503. To what boats you were to go? - Yes.
2504. You had looked at yours? - Yes.
2505. Was that list up when you first left? - It was up the day after we left Southampton.
2506. So that it would be up the day you left Queenstown, at any rate? - Yes, certainly.
      The Commissioner: How long does it take from Southampton to Queenstown, 20 hours?
      The Attorney-General: Something like that, because she left, I think, on the 10th from Southampton, and she left Queenstown on the 11th. That is as far as I understand the dates.
2507. (The Commissioner.) I was told she went to Cherbourg first. (To the Witness.) Did you go to Cherbourg first? - Yes.
2508. (The Attorney-General.) She went to Cherbourg, and, as I understand, it is about 13 or 14 hours from there to Queenstown, is that right? - Yes.
2509. And we know she left Queenstown on the 11th. When you went to your boat were there people waiting to be passed into the boat? - The first thing that I did, and that most of us did that were there, was that we cleared the falls away from the boats on the starboard side, and then we lowered the boats from forward to aft; and when I came to No. 11 I was told that the boat was full, and that I was to get on with the next boat. So I went into No. 13, and left in No. 13 after we had got a full load.
2510. So that you were in the same boat eventually when the boat left as Barrett? - Yes.
2511. And Beauchamp - do you know Beauchamp? - No, I cannot say that I do.
2512. He was a fireman. If you do not know him, never mind. We have seen him, and we know him. But you know Barrett? - Yes.
2513. And you were with him? - Yes, I saw him just now.
2514. I think I understand what you have said about what happened before you left, but just let us get it quite clearly. Were your orders to uncover all the boats along that side? - I had no orders whatever.
2515. Why did you go then to help uncover all the boats on the starboard side? - I went there because it was my duty.
2516. You knew that you had to do it? - I knew it was my duty, and that is why I went there. I did not have any orders myself.
2517. But why did you go to uncover the boats on that side? - Because I knew what had happened.
2518. You knew there had been serious damage done to the vessel? - Certainly.
2519. I suppose you knew the order that had been given by the bos'un, or somebody, that all hands were to go on deck? - I heard the bos'un say that as he went on deck, and I went up then just after the other fellows.
2520. You did not wait for anything more; you knew what your duty was - to go and help uncover the boats. That is right, is it not? - Certainly.
2521. And then you helped uncover all the boats? - I helped to uncover all the boats on the starboard side.
2522. Uncover them and get the falls ready? - Yes.
2523. Get them ready for lowering? - Yes. They were lowered on to A deck; that is where the passengers were put in, and from there they were lowered into the water.
2524. Your Lordship, we need not go in detail through this story again; we have had it already. Then you got to No. 13 boat. No. 11 boat ought to have been your boat; that was your station? - Yes.
2525. Why did not you get into that? - Because she was full up, and I went on to the next one.
2526. Did you get any order about that? - No, but I did not want to make a jump for it, and I went on to the next boat because there was scarcely anybody in that boat.
2527. You mean there was scarcely anybody in No. 13 boat? - Yes. Mr. ---- , I cannot tell you what his name is - a tall officer, about 6 feet in height, fresh complexion - I forget his name; I could not remember his name - he was there attending to passing the passengers into the boats.
2528. Was it Mr. Wilde, the chief officer? - No, He is about the sixth officer, or the fifth officer.
2529. At any rate, he was a very tall man, according to you? - Yes, tall and spare. I think he was drowned.
2530. Then what did you do? - We put some women and children into the boat, and then there were some passengers got in, and I was ordered by him to get in the boat and we lowered away; and then No. 15 very nearly came on top of us.
2531. That is No. 13 you are speaking of? - Yes.
2532. And No. 15 very nearly came on top of you? - Yes.
2533. I do not think it will be useful to go all through that again; we have heard what happened from Barrett, and I shall leave that. Then what did you do when you got into the boat? Were there any seamen on board? - Three of us; three able seamen.
2534. Besides yourself? - There were three able seamen in the boat.
2535. In No. 13? - Yes, three able seamen.
2536. Who were they? Do you know who the other two were? - Hopkins was the name of one, but I do not know the name of the other fellow.
2537. But you knew he was an able seaman? - Yes.
2538. That is the important point; it made three? - Yes.
2539. Do you know how many men there were in the boat altogether? - Hopkins told me when I asked him the next day if he happened to know how many people there were in the boat that there were 64.
2540. Hopkins told you there were 64? - Yes. He said, "I counted them as nearly as possible 64."
2541. When you got into the boat and your boat got away from the side, did you see the vessel settling down? - She was going down; she was settling down by the bows, but the bows was not underneath the water when we left. What I mean to say when I say the bows - the deck was not underneath the water; the foc'sle deck was not under the water.
2542. (The Commissioner.) You mean the foc'sle deck? - Yes, the foc'sle deck was not under the water when we left the ship.

Page 76

2543. (The Attorney-General.) Was it pretty low down? - About half way down I should say.
2544. What do you mean when you say "about half way down"? - I do not know; it is rather hard to say what the number of feet is. I do not know how many feet there are from the waterline up.
2545. I want to understand what you mean. Do you mean she had got a good deal down? - Yes; she was a good deal down.
2546. But not up to her foc'sle deck? - Not up to her foc'sle deck.
2547. I want to know what you mean by saying she was about half-way down. Do you mean about half-way down from the height of the decks to the water? - From the waterline to the foc'sle deck.
2548. Was she settling down quickly; could you see? - Not so very quickly.
2549. Can you give us any idea of the time? I want you to help us as far as you can, although I know it is very difficult for you. Had you any idea of what time it was when you left in the boat - how long it was after you had come down from the crow's-nest? - I could not say how long it was after. There were no clocks to look at, and I did not ask anybody the time until we got away in the boat. There was a lady there had a watch, and after the ship went down she told me that her watch said half-past two. That is all I know about the time. That was after the ship went down. But as regards other time, I am afraid I could not tell you.
2550. We will get the best help we can from you as to what was done. You pulled away from the "Titanic." Did you keep near to the other boats? - Yes.
2551. A number of other boats? - Yes; we kept in touch with each other.
2552. And did you keep in touch with the other boats until you were picked up by the "Carpathia"? - Yes, in the morning.
2553. Did you lay off for some time in the boats. I mean, lay off the "Titanic"? - We were about a quarter to half a mile away from the ship, laying off until she disappeared.
2554. So that you could see what was happening? - Yes.
2555. Then did you see her settling by the head? - She went down by the head.
2556. Did you see the lights on the ship? - You mean the electric lights?
2557. Yes? - Oh, yes.
2558. Were the lights burning on the ship until - ? - They burnt practically until she disappeared.
2559. That is what I wanted to know? - I suppose until the dynamos were put out of order.
2560. Did you see her stern? - No. I cannot say that I did from where I was in the boat. I was standing in the bottom of the boat, and I did not actually see the last part of her go. I saw her just before that, but when people said, "She's gone; that's the last of her," I did not actually see it. I cannot say.
2561. Did you see her stern in the air at all during any of the time? - Well, I did not see her just before her final disappearance. I did not see that, I cannot say that I did.
2562. Did you hear any explosions? - After she had gone down, yes.
2563. After she had gone down? - As she went down, you might say, you heard under-water explosions, like a gun-cotton explosion under water at a distance off. I suppose it was the boilers.
2564. When the steamer struck, was there any light of any other vessel to be seen? - No.
2565. And after leaving the steamer, did you see the lights of any other steamer before the "Carpathia"? - There was a ship apparently ahead of the "Titanic," as she was then, but, that ship was supposed to have disappeared. Anyway, we did not see her in the morning.
2566. But did you see her lights after you left the steamer? - We saw a light, yes, but we did not know what it was. It might have been one of our own boats that was showing a light. I could not say that it was a steamer.
2567. You saw a light? - I saw a light, apparently it was on the port bow of the "Titanic" as she was, it seemed to me. That was the one that we were going to pull for, but she disappeared.
2568. The light disappeared? - The light disappeared. Whether it was a fishing vessel or a steamer, or what she was, I do not know.
2569. (The Commissioner.) Or one of your own boats, I thought you said? - It might have been one of our own boats at a shorter distance. You could not tell; it was a dark night.
2570. (The Attorney-General.) I gather from what you said that it would only be a white light that you would see? - A white light was all that I saw.
2571. It might have been a masthead light? - It might have been a masthead light in the distance. I could not say for certain.
2572. And I understand you to say it might even have been the light of one of your own boats? - It might have been the light of one of our own boats.
2573. Did you see that light before the "Titanic" sank? - No.
2574. Does that mean that you only saw that light after the "Titanic" sank? - After I was in the boat, after leaving the ship.
2575. Those are two different things, you see. You got into the boat, and left the "Titanic" some time before she sank? - Yes.
2576. Before she sank had you seen that light? - No. It was only after being in the boat and away from the ship that we saw that light.
2577. (The Commissioner.) Yes, but did you see that light before the "Titanic" went down? - Yes, Sir, certainly.
2578. Then I have got it down wrong; you saw it. How long after you had got into No. 13 boat was it that you saw the light. Do not guess? If you do not remember tell me you do not remember. - I could not say how long it was.
2579. That is quite a proper answer. But are you sure that you saw this light, whatever it was, before the "Titanic" plunged to the bottom? - Yes, Sir.
2580. You did? - Yes, from the boat. I cannot say how long it was.
2581. You cannot say how long; all you can say is that you saw it before the "Titanic" went down? - Yes, before the ship disappeared.
2582. (The Attorney-General.) Did you see any rockets sent up from the "Titanic"? - Yes, Sir.
2583. Before you left the vessel? - Before and after.
2584. Were they coloured rockets, or only white ones? - No, coloured rockets.
2585. Did you see any reply? - No, none whatever.
2586. Now, will you tell us, so far as you can, about the passengers in your boat. Had you third-class passengers in your boat? - Second and third. A few second, principally third.
2587. Did they behave well? - Very well indeed.
2588. They were mostly women? - They were most women.
2589. Some children? - Four children.
2590. Was it very cold? - Very cold indeed.
2591. But you had no difficulty on board? - None whatever.
2592. Everybody bore it without complaint? - Yes, Sir.
2593. Before you left with your boat, did you see any other third-class passengers, women or children, waiting to go into the boats? - There were no women left there when our boat was lowered into the water, not as far as I could see.
2594. You can only tell us what you remember. You saw the other boat lowered, that is, the boat astern of you, No. 15? - I did not notice what they had there. We had our work cut out to get away with the crowd that we had in our own boat.
2595. You were carrying a very large number, you mean, for the boat? - Yes, and we were right under that exhaust there (pointing), and if the boiling water had got on to the people in the boat they would have made a start on the starboard side and capsized.

Page 77

Examined by MR. SCANLAN.

2596. When you are at sea in a fog is it a usual practice to station a watchman at the bows in addition to the lookout in the crow's-nest? - The captain of the ship has to be responsible for that kind of thing.
2597. Just tell me whether in your experience it is usual to do that? - If the captain of the ship thinks it is necessary.
2598. Have you seen it done? - I have.
2599. Have you seen it done frequently? - Frequently.
2600. Is not a haze a kind of a fog? - It is a kind of a fog, but you could not describe it as a fog.
2601. How long were you on your last watch before you observed the haze? - I think I answered that question before. Didn't you hear me answer that question before?
      Mr. Scanlan: I did not.
      The Commissioner: You must not whisper your answers. Speak up so that we can hear you.?
2602. (Mr. Scanlan.) How long had you been in the crow's-nest on your last watch? - It was not so hazy to begin with as it was when the accident occurred.
      Mr. Scanlan: When you found the haze thickening -
      The Commissioner: Did he ever find it thick?
      Mr. Scanlan: I said "thickening," my Lord.
2603. (The Commissioner.) I thought you said "thick." (To the Witness.) Were you in a fog when this accident happened? - No.
2604. (Mr. Scanlan.) Did you communicate with the bridge, that you found it hazy? - No.
      Mr. Scanlan: I think you mentioned that you said to your mate, or your mate said to you, that you would be very lucky if you could see through the haze.
      The Commissioner: "If we can get through this."
2605. (Mr. Scanlan.) Were you not then of opinion that the pressure of that haze made the passage dangerous? - I am not the officer of the watch.
      Mr. Scanlan: I am not accusing you of that.
      The Commissioner: These questions are proceeding upon the assumption that that observation was made.
      Mr. Scanlan: That this observation was made to him, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: Yes.
      Mr. Scanlan: Was that observation made to you?
      The Commissioner: He says it was.
2606. (Mr. Scanlan.) When this observation was made to you did you not think it a proper thing to communicate with the officer on the bridge? - Certainly not. The officer of the watch would ask you what you meant by it. He would ask you whether you were interfering with his duty or not.
2607. When you are going through a haze at night, is it usual to slow up - slacken speed? - That has nothing to do with me. I am not on the bridge. I am a look-out man, as I said before.
2608. You have often been in a fog, I daresay, in Atlantic passages? - I am in a fog now.
2609. You have been at sea for a number of years. Have you been sailing through an ice-field? - Yes.
2610. When your ship is sailing through an ice-field, is it usual to go slow - to slacken speed? - Certainly.
2611. Is it not also usual when you are in a fog or in a haze to slacken speed? - Certainly.
2612. And speed on this occasion was not slackened? - I could not tell you.
2613. You could not tell? - No.
2614. What is the height of the crow's-nest above the foc'sle deck? - I do not know. I suppose it is a matter of between 40 and 50 feet above the foc'sle deck.
2615. (The Commissioner.) It is a little higher than the bridge, is it not? - Some distance higher, my Lord.
      Mr. Scanlan: About 40 feet.
      The Commissioner: He said that the crow's-nest is about 40 feet higher than the bridge.
      The Attorney-General: I do not think he meant that, my Lord; I think he meant the foc'sle deck.
      The Witness: Yes, I meant the foc'sle deck
      The Attorney-General: Forty feet higher than the foc'sle deck.
2616. (The Commissioner.) That is a very different thing. How much higher than the bridge is it? - I suppose 20 feet something.
      The Attorney-General: Your Lordship can see it there on the model.
      The Commissioner: Yes, and I have seen the thing itself on the "Olympic."
2617. (Mr. Scanlan.) Would it have been easier to have observed the iceberg from the bow than from the crow's-nest? - I cannot answer you that.
2618. When you have been on other ships have you ever been at watch on the bows? - Yes.
2619. (The Commissioner.) Was there a crow's-nest on that ship? - Yes.
2620. And was there somebody in the crow's-nest as well? - Yes.
2621. And somebody on the bridge as well? - That was off the banks of Newfoundland.
2622. Was there somebody on the bridge as well? - Two quartermasters were there, and the officer of the watch.
2623. What ship was this? - The "Minnehaha."
2624. What line does she belong to? - The Atlantic Transport.
2625. Is she a mail boat? - No, Sir.
2626. (Mr. Scanlan.) As you have been stationed both in the crow's-nest and in other ships on the bows, I want you to give us your opinion as to whether it would be easier to see the iceberg if you were stationed at the bows than in the crow's-nest?
      The Commissioner: He has given you an answer to that which I believe to be quite true, that he does not know.
2627. (Mr. Scanlan.) You were assisting in the launching of all the boats from the starboard side? - I did not say all the boats.
2628. A number of them? - Some of them.
2629. How many of them? - I do not know how many - about three or four.
2630. Were any of these three or four boats that you assisted in launching provided with lights, lamps? - I did not look for them.

Examined by MR. HARBINSON.

2631. I believe you went from Southampton to Cherbourg? - Yes.
2632. Did you take many passengers on at Cherbourg? - That I could not say.
2633. You do not know? - No.
2634. Then you went from Cherbourg to Queenstown? - Yes.
2635. Did you ship many passengers at Queenstown? - A good number, but I cannot say how many.
2636. But a good number? - Yes.
2637. Mainly, I suppose, third-class passengers? - Yes, third-class passengers.
2638. (Mr. Harbinson.) Do I rightly understand that third-class passengers were carried both fore and aft in the "Titanic"?
      The Commissioner: You do; you need not wait for an answer to that.
      Mr. Harbinson: Thank your Lordship.
      The Witness: Yes, fore and aft.
2639. You say you asked for glasses. Who did you ask? - I did not ask.
2640. Did you know that anybody asked for glasses? - Yes, I think Simmons [Symons] asked.
2641. Who did he ask? - He was supposed to ask one of the officers on the bridge, but I do not know whether he asked. I am only just saying what I was told.
2642. (The Commissioner.) Simmons [Symons] told you that he asked, did he? - So I understand, that he asked the question on the bridge.
2643. Did Simmons [Symons] tell you that he asked the question on the bridge? - I think I am right in saying that he did.

Page 78

2644. Are you sure about it? - I will not swear that he did. I know that we all spoke about it, my Lord, and when they asked.
2645. When who asked? - When one of them asked about the glasses they were told there were none for us.
2646. Who was the one that asked? - I think it was Simmons [Symons].
2647. What makes you think so? - Because I can remember the conversation about it. We all spoke about it together.
2648. Who was there at this conversation? - Fleet, Hogg, Evans, Simmons [Symons], and myself were all there.
2649. And were you all talking about binoculars? - They were asking why they could not have them, because they had been in use from Belfast to Southampton, and they wanted to know what had become of the glasses that we had used in that time.
2650. Then the binoculars, according to this conversation, had been in the crow's-nest coming from Belfast to Southampton? - Yes.
2651. And therefore when she left Harland and Wolff's, if this conversation ever took place and it was accurate, the binoculars were there, and they had vanished at Southampton? - I was not there at the time, my Lord.
2652. But, as I understand, the conversation was to the effect that they had been in the ship when she left Belfast? - Yes.
2653. And the matter being discussed at this conversation was where they had gone? - Yes.
2654. And where had they gone? - I do not know.
2655. Did the conversation lead to any conclusion on that point? - We did not have any to use.
2656. I know that, so you say; but did you in your conversation arrive at any conclusion as to what had become of them? - We simply went without them, my Lord, that is all.
2657. (Mr. Harbinson.) You considered it was a serious matter not to have them? - If you have got good eyesight it is not necessary to have them perhaps.
      The Commissioner: That is your statement, you know.
2658. (Mr. Harbinson.) You were told to look out for ice and "growlers"? - Quite so.
2659. Had you been told there was ice about? - Yes.
2660. Did you know, as a matter of fact - had it been communicated to you - that a warning had been given from the "Baltic" as to ice being about? - No. The orders were passed over from the man that we relieved.
2661. Jewell and the others? - Jewell and Simmons [Symons].
2662. You knew that ice was about? - You could smell it.
      The Commissioner: "Smell it"?
      Mr. Harbinson: That is his reply.
2663. (The Commissioner.) This is the first time I have heard that. Does he mean that he felt the cold? (To the Witness.) Is that what you mean by "smell"? - There was a sudden change in the temperature, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: Then I understand.
2664. (Mr. Harbinson.) But so far as you knew the boat was going at the same speed? - Yes.
2665. Was the haze visible from the bridge, this haze that you saw? - It should have been.
2666. Despite the fact that this haze was about, you saw no slackening of speed? - No.
2667. And no alteration of the course? - No.
2668. I think you said that off the banks of Newfoundland on previous occasions there has been an additional man in the bows - an additional look-out? - Yes.
2669. How many times in your experience? - In the Navy they have extra look-outs on each side of the foc'sle, and may be aloft as well.
2670. But you yourself have seen it on boats you have been previously employed on ? - Yes.
2671. Immediately after the collision, did you come down from the crow's-nest? - No, I waited till our relief's came up at 12 o'clock.
      The Commissioner: You are taking him all over the same story again. He told you that he came down from the crow's-nest at 12 o'clock, the end of his watch.
2672. (Mr. Harbinson.) Immediately you came down from the crow's-nest, did you see any of the passengers come from the forepart of the boat? - No, because underneath the foc'sle you would not see anybody there, only the sailor folk or some of the firemen.
2673. Were there many passengers about the front of the boat when you came down? - No.
2674. Did you see any stewards about? - Yes, there may have been one or two, but I did not see many.
2675. Did you see anybody giving any instructions or warnings to the passengers in that part of the boat? - I saw the bos'un and he sent the watch up on deck to clear the boats.
2676. But you did not hear any instructions given as to warnings to be given to the passengers? - No, I could not hear them there.
2677. You made your way immediately down to boat No. 13? - No, up from the foc'sle to the boat deck here (showing.) right along the starboard side.
2678. To boat No. 13? - No. 11, down the side to No. 11 and No. 13 (showing).
2679. Were there any passengers about the place about the position of boat No. 13? - We had no women or children there, but there were a few men that went over to the other side, or got into the next boat.
2680. Was it before or after the lowering of your boat that you saw the rockets first go up? - They were sending them up before the boat was lowered into the water.
      The Commissioner: You have told us that already, you know.

Examined by MR. LEWIS.

2681. How long have you been an A. B.? - [No Answer.]
2682. (The Commissioner.) How long have you been a sailor? How old are you now? - Forty-one.
2683. When did you first go to sea? - In 1887.
2684. That is twenty-five years ago, so that you went to sea when you were about 16? - Yes, 16.
2685. When did you become an A. B.? - Last year.
      The Commissioner: It is a long time you know. He says he became an A. B. last year.
2686. (Mr. Lewis.) I do not press that point, Sir. How many times have you acted as look-out man? - [No Answer.]
2687. (The Commissioner.) Have you counted the number of times that you have acted as a look-out man? - I could not swear I have. I was a look-out man on the way to China in the "Cordelia," but I was not paid for it. I was 14 years in the Naval Service. I was in the "Minnehaha," and I was in the "Olympic," and I was in the "Titanic."
2688. (Mr. Lewis.) Is your sight good? - I hope so.
2689. Never anything the matter with your sight at all? - No.
2690. Is there an examination of the eyes before you are appointed look-out man at Southampton, or elsewhere? - Yes.
2691. Who by? - You go through the Board of Trade office.
2692. At Southampton? - Yes.
2693. What doctor examined you? - I do not know his name.
2694. A doctor did examine you at Southampton; did he particularly examine your eyes; did he test your sight? - Yes.
2695. Do you swear that he tested your sight at Southampton at the Board of Trade Dock there; do you swear that? - No.
2696. Let us be quite clear. You were examined by the Board of Trade doctor at the Southampton - is that so? - I am not going to answer that.
2697. (The Commissioner.) What did you say? Were you examined at Southampton by a doctor? - Yes, Sir, but not for eyesight though. He only just asked me - not a test to get a certificate for so that I can prove it. There is a doctor's examination when you fall in.

Page 79

2698. Were you asked about your eyesight? - Not specially.
2699. Were you asked in any way about it? - I cannot say that I was.
2700. (Mr. Lewis.) Can you tell us what form the examination took then. Were you examined separately; were all the men examined separately? What sort of examination did the doctor make? - I suppose he pleased himself. A medical man generally does, does not he?
2701. What sort of examination did he make of you? What did he say to you? - You might ask me something easier because I cannot remember what the man said.
2702. You say you were examined by the doctor - this is very important. I want you to answer the question. What form did the examination take; how long did it take? - We were falling in on the lounge deck and the doctor came and examined us all. I do not know that he particularly asked me anything.
2703. Just a casual examination? - It was a casual kind of examination.
2704. He did not ask you anything at all about your eyes? - No.
2705. No special examination. Has there been any examination by anyone since, by a ship's doctor or anyone else, with respect to your eyes? - No.
2706. (The Commissioner.) Is your eyesight good? - I think so, my Lord.
2707. Do you believe that it is good? - I do.

Examined by MR. COTTER.

2708. You said that the berg, when you first saw it, was half a mile away? - I did not. I said I could not say whether it was half a mile or a little more or a little less. It was impossible to say.
2709. (The Commissioner.) I thought you said it was about half a mile away? - About half a mile.
      The Attorney-General: He did say that he really could not say, but that that was it as it appeared to him.
2710. (Mr. Cotter.) If you had had a pair of night binoculars that night, and you were using them, I suggest to you that you would have seen that berg earlier? - Quite feasible.
2711. And then there would have been a chance of telling the officer on the bridge that it was ahead before you did.
2712. (The Commissioner.) Can you tell me the difference between day binoculars and night binoculars? - No, my Lord, except that they are made in the trade for night use and day use.

Examined by SIR ROBERT FINLAY.

2713. Just a few questions. The practice varies a good deal, does not it, about supplying binoculars to the look-out men? - Well, Sir, I do not know. They are supposed to be. It may be that some companies would supply them and some companies would not supply them.
2714. You know, I daresay, there is some difference of opinion as to whether it is desirable that the men who have to look out all round should have glasses? - Yes.
2715. That is, I believe, because it leads them to fix their attention on the spot to which they are directing the glasses? - Yes.
2716. There is a difference of opinion about that. Now about this light that you saw after you were in the boat. You saw it before the "Titanic" went down, as I understand you? - Yes.
2717. Were there more lights than one? - It seemed like a masthead light, or, as I said, it might be one of our own boats with a small light.
2718. How far off did you think it was? - It might have been a matter of six miles; it might have been five miles.
2719. Five or six miles? - It might have been that, five or six miles.
2720. How long did you see it? - I could not say. I never know that I noticed it, because it was pointed out to me, and all the passengers were saying that they thought there would be a ship coming along. But really I could not tell whether it was a ship or whether it might have been one of our own boats that had gone away from the other side of the ship and pulled ahead.
2721. You thought it might be a masthead light of a ship five or six miles away? - Yes, five or six miles away, of another ship; but as for being certain about it - I could not be certain.
2722. The haze could not have been very bad if you thought it was a masthead light, five or six miles off? - This is afterwards, Sir. This is in the morning - when I say in the morning, it is about what time?
2723. The "Titanic" sank about 2 o'clock? - Two something.
      The Commissioner: Half-past two.
2724. (Sir Robert Finlay.) Before the "Titanic" sank? - This is after she had passed the berg, Sir. As she got clear of the berg the weather was clearer.
2725. Had the whole haze gone by that time? Had the whole of the haze disappeared by that time? - It seemed to be clearer about that time.
2726. (The Commissioner.) About what time? - I suppose about 2.30, my Lord.
2727. Then did this haze come on some time before 12 o'clock, and then lift just about the time the "Titanic" was sinking. Are you sure this haze existed at all? - Yes, Sir, quite positive.
2728. (Sir Robert Finlay.) Was it ever very bad? - It was so bad that you could not see the iceberg, Sir.
      The Commissioner: It was so bad that you could not see it.
2729. (Sir Robert Finlay.) It had lifted. When did it lift? - It cleared.
2730. When? - It was towards daylight. That is the only thing I can say.
2731. (The Commissioner.) But it was not daylight till about five o'clock? - No.
2732. I understand that when you saw this light the rockets were going up from the "Titanic"? - So they were.
2733. You saw the light before the "Titanic" went down, and when the "Titanic" was sending up rockets, and there was no answer from the light? - Not as far as we could see.
2734. (Sir Robert Finlay.) There is just one other matter that perhaps you can tell me about. When you saw the water coming in you looked down No. 1 hatch? - Yes.
2735. Could you see down to where on a lower deck the hatch was battened over and tarpaulined - battened down? - Yes.
2736. You saw down to that? - Yes.
2737. Below that would be the cargo? - Yes.
2738. You know that, do not you? - Yes.
2739. The various decks down to that would be decks with quarters for the firemen and so on? - Yes.
2740. You saw this hatchway? - I am not sure about this deck business. You could hear the water rushing in, but where it was coming from I could not tell you.
2741. What I want to know is did you see the water rising on the deck where the hatch was? - Yes.
2742. That is what you mean? - Yes, but I cannot tell you whether it was two decks or even below that.
2743. I will not trouble you about the number? - The water was making its way into the ship.
2744. I quite follow. All I wanted to get clear was that you saw down to this hatchway? - You could hear the water running in there.

Page 80

2745. You saw the hatchway where it was tarpaulined over and battened down? - Yes.
2746. The water was rising there? - The water was washing round it as it came on to the deck.
2747. Did you see where the water was coming from - did you see any hole or anything like that? - No, I could not see that from up top; you could not see that.
2748. From all you saw, the water may have been rising from below? - Rising from below for all I know.

Further examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

2749. If I understand you aright, I suppose you were examined by the doctor when everybody else was examined - when you were all told to fall in? - Yes.
2750. And not specially because you were the look-out man, or anything of that kind? - No.
2751. That is in accordance with the regulations. There is one question I would like to put to you, because I am not sure that we have got your answer clearly upon it. When you were in the crow's-nest did you first of all feel the impact, the blow of the vessel on the iceberg? Did you feel it? - The ship seemed to heel slightly over to port as she struck the berg.
2752. You felt her strike, did you? - Oh, indeed, Sir.
2753. Then she heeled a little over to port? - Very slightly over to port, as she struck along the starboard side.
2754. Could you tell at all whether she had struck above or below the waterline? Can you say that? - It was hard to say that - we would not know.
      The Commissioner: What is supposed to have caused the ice to fall on the deck? Was it some part of the ship, the "Titanic," striking the berg above the waterline, or was it something that fell from the iceberg without the iceberg being struck.
      The Attorney-General: I should have thought myself that it followed that the vessel must have struck the iceberg, and brought the ice on to the deck.
      The Commissioner: So I should have thought, but I was wondering what part of the "Titanic" would strike the iceberg.
2755. (The Attorney-General.) I do not think there is any such suggestion. (To the Witness.) You have told us that you saw some ice fall on to the fore-well deck? - It must have been overhanging from the berg as she struck, otherwise it could not have come there, because there were no yards on the mast or anything of that sort. It must have been.
2756. It must have been either the head or the side? - It caused it to fall inboard. This is where it landed, just on that fore-well deck. (Showing on the model.)
2757. You did not notice that, did you. Did you notice whether there was any overhanging part? - No, I cannot say what was overhanging; I cannot say the size.
2758. Did you notice where it fell on the fore-well deck. Was it amidships or on the starboard side or port side? - It was on this side here, the starboard side. (showing.)
2759. I think there is one other thing you may still be able to tell us. When she struck, did the blow continue? Did she seem to be ripping along? - There was a rending of metal.
2760. Did you notice that? - Yes. You could hear that from where we were.
2761. You could hear a rending of metal? - Yes, you could hear a rending of metal right away. It seemed to be running right along the starboard side.
      The Attorney-General: That is what I wanted to understand from you.

(The Witness withdrew.)

(After a short adjournment.)

JOHN POINGDESTRE, Sworn.

Examined by MR. ASPINALL.

2762. Were you serving as an A. B. on the "Titanic," at the time of this accident? - Yes.
2763. When did you join her; what day? - At seven o'clock on the Wednesday morning.
2764. Have you been on other liners? - Yes.
2765. What? - Some other White Star liners.
2766. Give me their names. - The "Oceanic" and the "Teutonic."
2767. Have you been in any other liners? - Yes.
2768. Give me their names. - Nearly all the Royal Mail liners leaving Southampton.
2769. Any other liners? - No, Sir.
2770. How many years' experience have you had on liners? - I have had three years' experience on liners.
2771. You joined on the Wednesday, I think you said? - Yes.
2772. And then the ship proceeded to sea? - Yes.
2773. Did you know what your boat was? - Yes.
2774. Which was your boat? - No. 12.
2775. How did you know No. 12 was your boat? - Because I made it my acquaintance to find out which boat I was in.
2776. How did you make it your acquaintance to know which boat you were in? - On the top of the foc'sle ladder leading down to our mess-room the list was put up acquainting each man of which boat he was in.
2777. You looked at it, and there you saw No. 12 boat for you? - Yes.
2778. Now I want to take you to the night of the accident. Was it your watch from eight to twelve? - Yes.
2779. What were your duties that night? - Standing by.
2780. What sort of weather was it? - Grand weather.
2781. What do you say? - Fine weather.
2782. Was it cold? - Rather cold.
2783. You call it "rather cold"? - Yes, rather cold.
2784. You had come on duty at eight? - Yes.
2785. Did the coldness continue, or did it get worse? - It got worse.
2786. And at the time of the accident how would you describe the weather, was it cold or very cold? - Terribly cold.
2787. And did you appreciate that it was getting colder and colder as you got along? - Yes, Sir.
2788. That is with regard to the temperature. With regard to the clearness of the atmosphere, how would you describe it? - Well, on the evening that the accident occurred it seemed to be fine weather.
2789. By "fine weather" - do you mean a good clear night for seeing lights? - Yes.
2790. At the time of the accident was it fine weather then? - Yes, Sir.
2791. Weather in which, according to you, you could see ships' lights at full range, do you mean? - Yes.
2792. Did you feel the shock from the ship striking the iceberg? - Yes.
2793. Where were you? - Underneath the forecastle, outside the mess room, on the port side.
2794. On the port side, do you say? - Yes.
2795. Can you tell me this; at the time you felt the shock do you think your engines were working astern or working ahead? - I felt the vibration, but I could not say whether the engine was going ahead or astern.
2796. But it was a big vibration, was it? - Yes.
2797. A sort of vibration that would tell a sailor that probably the engines were going astern? - Yes.
      Mr. Aspinall: During this watch of yours from eight to 12, did you notice at what sort of speed your ship was travelling? Would you say she was travelling at her full speed?
      The Commissioner: I do not understand you. You say the vibration was such as to indicate that the engines were going astern. The engines were stopped, were they not?
      The Attorney-General: According to our view.
      Mr. Aspinall: "Stopped." I think the order came, "Full speed astern," according to the earlier evidence.
      The Commissioner: Were the engines ever reversed? They were stopped, I know.
      Mr. Aspinall: I think, my Lord, there has been evidence that they were reversed.
      The Commissioner: Very well.

Page 81

2798. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Or we have it coming. (To the Witness.) At any rate, your view is that there was that vibration going on in the ship which one feels when the engines are put astern? - That is quite so, Sir.
2799. Having felt the shock, what did you do? - Came out on the fore-well deck.
2800. When you got out on the fore-well deck, did you see anything? - Yes.
2801. What did you see? - I knew we had struck an iceberg.
2802. Why did you know you had struck an iceberg? - I saw the ice on the deck.
2803. Did you see the iceberg itself? - No, Sir.
2804. Did you remain there, or go elsewhere? - I picked a piece of ice up and went underneath the foc'sle with it outside the mess room.
2805. You went back to your mess room? - Yes.
2806. Were you alarmed then, or not? - No.
2807. You thought nothing of it? - No.
2808. Having gone back to your mess room, did you remain there, or did you leave the mess-room? - I remained outside the mess-room for a few minutes.
2809. And then? - I saw the carpenter.
2810. Before you saw the carpenter, while you were remaining outside the mess-room, what was your ship doing? Did you notice? - I think the ship was stopped, Sir.
2811. Now I will just go back for one minute. With regard to the coldness of the night. Did you hear any orders which came from the Officer of the Watch to anybody? - Yes.
2812. What orders were those? - I saw Quartermaster Hichens about half-past nine, and he had orders to go and tell the carpenter to look after the fresh water as it might freeze.
2813. This was something that was told you, was it? - Yes, by the man himself that went and put the question to the carpenter.
2814. Hichens had orders. Did Hichens tell you who gave those orders? - Yes.
2815. Who? - Mr. Lightoller.
2816. And who is he? - The Officer of the Watch from 8 to 10.
      The Commissioner: I have got that evidence somewhere already.
      The Attorney-General: Hichens himself said it.
2817. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Now, to go back to where we were before; you were just telling me that you saw the carpenter? - Yes.
2818. Did anything pass between you and the carpenter? - Yes.
2819. Will you tell me what was said by the carpenter to you? - The carpenter told me, and said the ship was making water; "Get up to your boats."
2820. Did he give you any more definite information than that? - No.
2821. He did not tell you how much? - He said about 7 feet, Sir.
2822. Did he tell you whether he had been sounding himself? - He had been sounding the wells down in the firemen's compartment.
2823. He had done that? - Yes.
2824. He told you 7 feet of water was the result? - Yes.
2825. Now when the carpenter gave you that information how long do you think that was after the ship had struck the iceberg? - I think about 10 minutes.
2826. What did you do after the carpenter had told you that? - Stayed where I was.
2827. For about how long? - A matter of a couple of minutes.
2828. And at the end of a couple of minutes what did you do? - The boatswain piped.
2829. What did the boatswain pipe? - "All hands up and get the lifeboats ready."
2830. Now after the first pipe what did you do? - Went up on to the boat deck.
2831. Now having got on to the boat deck what did you do? - I went to the first boat I came to and cleared her away.
2832. On which side of the boat deck were you? - On the port side.
2833. And which boat did you go to? - I went to no particular boat; I cleared all away.
2834. How many boats did you help to clear away? - About 10.
2835. All on the port side? - No; I went from the port side over to the starboard side.
2836. Was there good order whilst those boats were being cleared away? - Yes, because there were only the sailors up there to do it.
2837. You were up the whole time on the boat deck? - Yes.
2838. Then the boats would be lowered down to the deck below for the passengers to get in? - No, not necessarily.
2839. Where were the boats lowered to? - Some boats were lowered to the promenade deck and some were lowered in line with the fish plate that is on the boat deck.
2840. Now, having assisted in getting these boats lowered away, what did you next do? - I went down the forecastle.
2841. Back again to the forecastle? - Yes.
2842. Now, why did you go back to the forecastle? - To put my boots on.
2843. When you got back to the forecastle did you find any water coming in? - Yes.
2844. How long do you think it was after the ship had struck that you went back to the forecastle to put your boots on? - About three-quarters of an hour.
2845. Now I want you to tell me about the water. Where was the water that you saw when you went back to the forecastle? - Coming in through a bulkhead that had broken outside our forecastle, a wooden bulkhead from the third-class.
2846. Was it coming from abaft this bulkhead, or forward of it? - It was coming in from the starboard side.
2847. On the starboard side? - Yes, in line with our forecastle, where we slept.
2848. Was it coming from a place abaft where you slept? - No, forward of where we slept.
2849. From a place which was forward of where you slept? - Yes.
2850. About how far aft of the stem of the vessel did you sleep? Perhaps you do not know? - Well, I reckon 50 to 60 feet.
2851. Were you sleeping in a place which was forward of No. 1 hatch or aft of No. 1 hatch? - Aft of No. 1 hatch.
2852. Was this water coming in fast? - Yes, it was pouring in.
2853. Could you hear it as well as see it? - I was in it; I had to come through it up to my waist in water to get out.
2854. And it was pouring in? - Yes.
2855. (The Commissioner.) How did you get your boots? - While I was in the forecastle, getting my boots, this bulkhead broke as I was coming out - the wooden compartment leading from the third-class.
2856. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Was this a watertight bulkhead which broke? - No, a wooden one.
2857. The ordinary wooden bulkhead? - Yes, separating our forecastle from the third-class cabins.
2858. On which deck were you at the time you saw this bulkhead go? - I was in our forecastle.
2859. On which deck would that be? - I could not say; we call it the lower deck.

Page 82

2860. One of the lower decks? - Yes.
2861. Do you know where the seamen's wash place is? - It is right opposite.
2862. Is it the same deck? - Yes, right opposite the washroom door.
2863. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) That is deck E, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Is your place aft of the seamen's wash place? - Yes.
2864. I see there is a space on the place for "seamen"? - Yes, just abaft the bath room.
2865. On the port side? - Yes.
2866. Now the bulkhead that carried away, is that a bulkhead which is aft of that? - No.
2867. Forward? - Directly opposite our bathroom door.
      The Commissioner: Is this wooden bulkhead worked on any plan?
      The Attorney-General: That is what we are trying to find, my Lord.
      Mr. Butler Aspinall: Has your Lordship got deck E? Deck E, 44 seamen on the port side?
2868. (The Commissioner.) Was it a fore and aft bulkhead that gave way? - Yes, a fore and aft bulkhead.
2869. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Did the water come from the starboard side? - Yes.
2870. Now, did you remain below? - No, a matter of half a minute.
2871. You cleared out? - Yes, as fast as I could.
      The Attorney-General: Has your Lordship got it now where it is on the plan?
      (The Attorney-General pointed out the position on the plan to his Lordship.)
2872. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) It is difficult to measure time on these occasions, but how long do you think it was after the ship struck the iceberg that this fore and aft bulkhead carried away? - About half an hour.
      The Commissioner: He first said he went to this place to get his boots three-quarters of an hour after the collision, and that when he got his boots and was coming out then the wooden bulkhead gave way. That must have been, if anything, longer than three-quarters of an hour.
      Mr. Butler Aspinall: It is very difficult, my Lord.
      The Witness: Well, about three-quarters of an hour, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: It is near enough.
2873. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) You cleared out, you say? - Yes.
2874. Where did you go to then? - I was going up on to the boat deck to go towards my own boat, and I heard the Captain pass the remark, "Start putting the women and children in the boats," and then I went to my boat, No. 12.
2875. Now, on your way from your quarters up to the boat deck would you go near where the third-class passengers could get out from their quarters up to the deck? - Yes, they were already out.
2876. How do you know that? - I passed them on the fore-well deck on the port side.
      The Commissioner: Which were those?
2877. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Those were third-class passengers, my Lord; he says he knows the third-class passengers were out because he passed them on his way. (To the Witness.) I want you to explain that.
2878. (The Commissioner.) Now you are talking about the third-class passengers in the fore part of the vessel? - Yes.
2879. By the forecastle? - Yes.
2880. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) How do you know they were out? - You say you passed them; what do you mean by that? - Well, I saw them with my own eyes, with their own baggage on the deck.
2881. Did you see them coming up? - They were already there.
2882. Was there a large number of them there? - Yes.
2883. And when you say "there" what do you mean precisely by that? - On the port side of the well deck, outside, from under the forecastle.
2884. As you passed, I suppose it was a short time? - Well, it was directly I came out of the forecastle.
2885. You saw them gathered there? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: I want to know where they were gathered?
      Mr. Butler Aspinall: I think he could point out to your Lordship.
2886. (The Commissioner.) Were they gathered on the well deck or did he see them on the boat deck? - Gathered on the well deck, my Lord, port side.
2887. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) It is difficult to tell numbers on a dark night? - There may have been 50 or there may have been 100, I could not say.
2888. Were they not only gathered, but were they remaining there? - Yes.
2889. Stopping there? - Yes.
2890. Were there men, women, and children? - No.
2891. What were they? - They were men, foreigners.
2892. You saw no women? - None whatever.
2893. It may be the women are berthed aft of the ship? - Yes, aft, away from the men altogether.
2894. Now, was there anybody connected with the ship, stewards or sailors, or anybody else, giving any information to these people? - Yes.
2895. Who was giving information? - The third-class stewards were with them, some of them.
2896. They were with them? - With the passengers.
2897. Were they telling them anything? - They were conversing with them.
2898. What do you mean by that? - Why, speaking to them.
2899. Did you hear anything they said to them? - No.
2900. Were there any orders being given - you know what I mean - orders in a loud voice? - I never heard any.
2901. They were gathered together? - Yes, in a bunch.
2902. And talking? - Yes.
2903. Then you passed along? - I went up the ladder then to go to the boat deck.
2904. And when you had gone up to the boat deck did you leave behind you these people on the well deck? - Yes.
2905. Now having got up what did you do? - I went along to No. 12 boat.
2906. That's your station boat? - Yes.
2907. When you got to your station boat in what condition was it? Where was it? - Hung to the davits.
2908. Was it swung out? - Yes.
2909. (The Commissioner.) What number was your boat? - No. 12.
2910. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) That is on the port side? - Yes.
2911. The last boat but two? - Yes.
2912. Now having got to your boat, was it in a line with the boat deck or had it been lowered? - It was lowered, but in line with the boat deck.
2913. In a line with the boat deck? - Yes.
2914. Was there anybody there looking after it? - Yes.
2915. Who? - Mr. Lightoller.
2916. Is he an officer? - Second Officer.
2917. Was there anybody else with him? - No, only myself.
2918. Only you two? - Yes.
2919. Were there any passengers up there? - Yes.
2920. Were they males or females, or both? - Both.
2921. Children? - Yes.
2922. Many of them at that boat? - There were hundreds gathered round waiting to get into the three boats.
2923. When you speak of three boats, which boats do you mean? - Nos. 12, 14, and 16.
2924. Were you able to distinguish between these people whether they were first, second, or third-class passengers? - No.
2925. Now what happened with regard to your boat, No. 12? - We filled her up with women and children - me and Mr. Lightoller, the Second Officer.
2926. How many women and children? - About 40.
2927. This was a lifeboat, was it not? - Yes.
2928. How many would it hold? - The full carrying capacity of the big lifeboats is 65.

Page 83

2929. Now having, to use your own phrase, filled it up with about 40, what was done with that boat? - It was left there.
2930. Left on a level with the boat deck? - Yes, with the boat deck.
2931. How long was it left there? - I went away, and helped fill another boat after that
2932. Which boat did you go to help with? - No. 14.
2933. That is a boat immediately abaft No. 12? - Yes.
2934. How long were you away with No. 14? - A matter of about ten minutes.
2935. Was there any officer looking after No. 14? - Yes.
2936. Who? - Mr. Wilde, the Chief Officer.
2937. Anybody besides him? - No.
2938. So you helped the First Officer? - Yes, the Chief Officer.
2939. Were people put into that boat? - The boat was filled with women and children also.
2940. About how many? - About 40.
2941. And was that boat left, as you call it? - No, the boat was lowered.
2942. That boat was lowered into the water, and who went away in that boat? - I could not say.
2943. Did the officer go away? - No.
2944. What did you do next? - I went to my own boat.
2945. No. 12? - Yes.
2946. When you got back to No. 12, was there any officer there? - Yes.
2947. Who? - Mr. Lightoller.
2948. Any seamen, firemen, or anybody else? - Yes, there were some sailors there.
2949. Do you know their names? - Yes.
2950. What were their names? - There was Lucas, who lowered the boat, and another man who lowered the other end I did not know, but another man I asked to come in the boat by the name of Clinch.
2951. Did he come in the boat? - He came in the boat at my own request.
2952. That is an officer and three seamen? - No, they were gone.
2953. Two of them helped to lower? - And two of us were in the boat.
2954. You and the third one were in the boat? - Yes.
2955. So that the boat, when it was lowered to the water, contained two sailors, you and Clinch? - Yes.
2956. When the boat was lowered to the water how many people were in her when you last left her? - About 42.
2957. You are precise; did you count the number? - No. I never had any time to do that.
2958. Do you know how it comes that there were not more than 42 put into this boat? - Yes.
2959. Why? - Well the reason is that the falls would not carry any more.
2960. You mean somebody was frightened of the falls? - Yes, the second officer, Mr. Lightoller.
2961. Now having lowered her down to the water did Mr. Lightoller give you any orders as to what to do with the boat? - He gave me orders before the boat was lowered what to do.
2962. What orders did he give you? - To lay off and stand by close to the ship.
2963. Were there any left on the boat deck as the boat was being lowered? - No women.
2964. Men? - Yes.
2965. How did the passengers behave - well? - Well, they did not where I was.
2966. (The Commissioner.) What were they doing? - They were trying to rush No. 12 and No. 14 boats.
2967. Men, you mean? - Yes.
2968. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Did you have to keep them back? - Yes, to the best of my ability.
2969. Who did that? - Myself and Mr. Lightoller and the other two sailors who were standing by to lower. They could not lower the boat as it should have been lowered because of the passengers. Men were on the boat falls; they could not get them clear.
2970. Could you tell the Court who those were who were trying to rush the boat? - Passengers.
2971. What sort of passengers? - Second and third.
2972. (The Commissioner.) Men passengers? - Yes, my Lord.
2973. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) No. 12, I see according to the plan, is somewhere in the neighbourhood of the second-class promenade, is it not? - Yes.
2974. At any rate, the boat only contained women and children? - Yes, and two hands.
2975. Now having got her down to the water, did you obey Mr. Lightoller's orders? - Yes.
2976. Did you go and stand off? - Yes.
2977. After you had got her into the water, did you speak any other boat? - Yes.
2978. What were they? - Three lifeboats and a collapsible boat.
2979. And did you get any men to help you in looking after your boat from any of those other boats? - Yes, from the collapsible boat.
2980. What did you get from the collapsible boat? - A sailor and two firemen.
2981. How came it that the collapsible boat could spare a sailor? - I could not say.
2982. Was the collapsible boat full? - The collapsible boat was full, but it had more men than what I had.
2983. You only had how many? - Two.
2984. So they lent you these hands? - Three.
2985. We have heard this before. Did you make your boat fast to some three other lifeboats? - No.
2986. What did you do? - Had the boats made fast to me.
2987. Do you know if there was a man called Lucas in the collapsible boat? - Yes, Lucas was the sailor I took from the collapsible boat.
      The Attorney-General: That would show, my Lord, that when Lucas said No. 8, he really must have meant No. 12.
2988. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Whilst your boat was in the water did you see the "Titanic" sink? - Yes.
2989. How long do you think it was after she struck the iceberg that she sank? - About two and a half hours when she was last seen.
2990. After she sank did you see any people struggling in the water? - No.
2991. How far away from the "Titanic" were you? - About 150 yards.
2992. After she sank did your boat pull in towards the place where she sank? - Yes.
2993. For what purpose? - To pick up anybody who was there.
2994. Was there anybody there? - I never saw anybody.
2995. Did you see any corpses? - No.
2996. You saw nothing? - I saw some by daylight.
2997. Did you hear any cries? - Yes.
2998. Did not the cries guide you so as to enable you to go to them? - Certainly.
2999. Did you go in that direction? - I pulled in the direction the cries came from.
3000. Did not you find anybody there? - No.
3001. Did you see nobody? - Nobody whatever.
3002. Are you sure? - Yes.
3003. When you pulled in that direction, did the passengers on board your boat approve of your doing so? - Yes.
3004. And you went and searched and found nobody? - Yes.
3005. You are sure of that? - Yes.
3006. Because you had a good deal of room in your boat? - Well, it did not look much room to my idea.
3007. According to your numbers your boat had 42? - Yes.
3008. And you and Clinch? - Yes, 40; and Clinch and me is 42.
      The Commissioner: And it is constructed to carry 65.
3009. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Yes. (To the Witness.) You say you did go and look and found nobody? - Yes.
3010. I am directing your attention to the point of time after the "Titanic" went down and you pulled in the direction of the cries; was that before you had got them in from the collapsible boat? - Yes.

Page 84

3011. It was? - Yes.
3012. So that at that time there was a great deal of spare room in your boat. You think not you say? - No.
3013. We know what the capacity of the boat is. How long did you remain looking, do you suggest, for the people? - About a quarter of an hour.
3014. And you saw nothing? - Nothing at all.
3015. Did you see wreckage? - Only about a couple of hundred deck chairs.
3016. But you saw no bodies? - No bodies whatever.
3017. During that quarter of an hour, while you were looking, how long did the cries continue? - All the time that we were looking we heard the cries.
3018. And yet you found nothing? - We found nothing at all.
3019. These cries were going on for the whole of the time you were searching? - Yes.
3020. What was the nearest do you think that you got to any of these cries? - I reckoned about 100 yards.
3021. And then did they cease? - Yes.
3022. Can you account for that? - I can account for not going to the position where I ought to have been.
3023. Well, will you tell us? - There were not enough sailors in my boat, only me and my mate, and we could not get there.
3024. (The Commissioner.) Get where? - To where the halloes were coming from - the cries.
3025. I thought you could not find that?
3026. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) What is the name of the other man who was in the boat with you? - Clinch.
3027. Do you know whether he is in this country? - He is not; he is coming home.
3028. He is coming home? - Yes.
3029. At the end of this quarter of an hour what did you do then? - I hailed for other boats.
3030. Hailed for them? - Yes.
3031. What do you mean by that? - Called to see if there were any in the vicinity of where I was.
3032. Had you a light in your boat? - No.
3033. Did you look for one? - Yes.
3034. Is there a place for a light? - Well, there is not a place made in the boats for a light, but it is a case of having a lamp tied up in the after-thwarts.
3035. Did you look there? - Yes. I knew where to go and find it.
3036. Were there sufficient oars in the boat? - Yes.
3037. Was there any water in the boat? - Yes.
3038. Were there any provisions? - Yes.
3039. At the end of this quarter of an hour you hailed the other boats; did you get any answer to your hail? - Yes.
3040. What answer did you get? - I heard somebody call out, and they came up to us - another lifeboat.
3041. Were they showing you a light from that other boat? - No.
3042. Do you know the number of that lifeboat? - No.
3043. Do you know who was in charge of it? - No.
3044. Was it an officer or a seaman? - A seaman.
3045. Do you know the name of the man in charge? - I think it was Foley, a storekeeper.
3046. Did anything pass between you and that boat with regard to changing passengers? - No.
3047. (The Commissioner.) What did you hail it for? - To tie up, to keep together.
3048. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Did you tie up and keep together? - Yes.
3049. What happened next? - We saw another boat in charge of Officer Lowe.
3050. Did that boat come to you, or did you go to it? - He came to me.
3051. When he came to you, what happened? - He discharged some of his passengers into my boat and some into the other boat that was tied up astern of me.
3052. How many passengers did he put into your boat? - About a dozen.
3053. Did he remain with you then, or go away? - A few minutes.
3054. And at the end of the few minutes what did he do? - He took the men crew, what he had already had, and went and searched.
3055. He went off to search. Now were the cries still going on? - No.
3056. Did you tell him anything which led him to go and search? - No.
3057. Did he tell you anything? - He told me he was going to search and to stop where I was.
3058. What were the people that were put into your boat? Were they women, or men and women? - Women; I would not take any men.
3059. You would not take the men? - No.
3060. Now, Mr. Lowe went away? - Mr. Lowe went away.
3061. What happened next? - We met another lifeboat.
3062. (The Commissioner.) This is a third, is it? - Yes.
3063. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Do you know the number? - I believe it was 14.
3064. When you say you believe it was 14, what is your reason for believing it? - Well, I am not certain.
3065. It is a guess? - Well, I do not know.
3066. Do you know who was in charge of that boat? - No.
3067. Do you know the name of anybody who was in that boat? - No.
3068. Was an officer in the boat? - No.
3069. Do you know a man named Scarrott? - Yes.
3070. Was he in that boat? - I could not say; I do not know.
3071. Did you have any conversation with them? - No.
3072. Did they make fast? - To the boat behind me.
3073. Was that boat full, as far as you could see? - As far as I could see it was full.
3074. Did you take anybody from that boat? - No.
3075. What happened next? - We were all together.
3076. You three? - We saw the lights of the "Carpathia" coming up. We had never seen the light before; I never. I saw an imaginary light which kept showing for about ten minutes.
3078. (The Commissioner.) How do you see an imaginary light? - Well, what we thought was a light. There is such a thing at sea as seeing imaginary lights.
3079. Oh, is there? - Yes.
3080. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) When did you see this imaginary light? I do not mean was it twelve or half-past, but was it while you were on the "Titanic" or after you had left the "Titanic"? - When I had left the "Titanic."
3081. (The Commissioner.) I do not understand it. Did you imagine that you saw a light? - Yes.
3082. Or did you see a light that you imagined, which? - Well, one way or the other.
3083. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Where was it that you saw what you call this imaginary light? - Off my port bow.
3084. Is that the port bow of your lifeboat? - Yes.
3085. (The Commissioner.) Have you ever seen imaginary lights at sea before? - Yes.
3086. Are they frequent things? - Yes, I have been on the look-out on ships on the forecastle-head, and reported a light, and it has been an imaginary light; as soon as you see it it has gone again.
3087. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) How high above the horizon or above the sea do you think this imaginary light was? Was it low down, or rather high up? - It seemed low.
3088. Low down, near the horizon? - Yes.
3089. What distance did you judge it to be? - A matter of four or five miles.
3090. (The Commissioner.) And what do you think it was? - I could not say.

Page 85

3091. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) What colour was it? - White.
3092. Might it have been a star, do you think? - Well, it might have been.
3093. You saw no sidelight, did you? - No.
3094. No red or green light? - None whatever.
3095. Was there any general talk in your boat about this imaginary light? - Well, I spoke to the women about this light and said, "We are all right, we shall be picked up in a minute; there is a ship coming."
3096. Did you hear any explosions? - A slight one.
3097. From the "Titanic" when she sank? - A slight one.
3098. One? - One.
3099. Did you see any rockets sent up from the "Titanic"? - Yes; there were rockets sent up before I left the ship.
3100. And after? - Yes.
3101. I have asked you about any general talk on your boat about the light. Was there any conversation between you and the other boats about this light? - No.
3102. There were three of you all tied together? - Yes.
3103. Nothing was said about this light? - Nothing.
3104. (The Commissioner.) I thought you said to the women in your boat that you could see the light? - Yes, so I did, my Lord.
3105. And told them they would be picked up in a few minutes? - Yes, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: What is it you are asking him about Mr. Aspinall?
3106. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) I was asking him when the three boats were tied together whether there was any talk between boat and boat about the light, and he says no. (To the Witness.) You said you saw the "Titanic" sink? - Yes.
3107. How far away were you when she sank? - About 150 yards.
3108. Now will you describe to us what you saw happen when she sank? - Well, I thought when I looked that the ship broke at the foremost funnel.
3109. What led you to that conclusion? - Because I had seen that part disappear.
3110. If she sank by the head you would see that part disappear, would you not? - Yes.
3111. What was there about the disappearance that led you to think she broke? - Because she was short; the afterpart righted itself after the foremost part had disappeared.
3112. (The Commissioner.) Do you mean to say that the fore part of the vessel went down to the bottom, and that then the remainder came on an even keel? - Yes.
3113. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Before the ship sank just tell me this, what was the position of the vessel? I have a pen in my hand? - Well, the water was up to the officers' house.
3114. Assume, for a moment, that is the officers' house. Now could you see under the keel of the ship abaft the officers' house? - Yes, the propeller and everything was quite clear.
3115. Underneath? - Yes.
3116. Then the water comes up to the officers' house. Was it then that the forward part disappeared? - Yes.
3117. And then what happened to the afterpart? - It uprighted itself, as if nothing had happened.
3118. You mean it came back like that, so to speak? - Yes, straight on the water again.
3119. Did it float on the water for any appreciable time? - Not above a couple of minutes.
      The Commissioner: Has there been evidence of breaking before?
      The Attorney-General: Not of righting itself and again floating - not that part.
      The Commissioner: She was already down by the head a great deal, and then at the last she took a sudden plunge, her afterpart went up, so to speak, in the air, and then she went down.
      The Attorney-General: There is evidence of her breaking.
      The Commissioner: There is evidence of noise. Will you tell me what is the evidence of breaking? You mean to say evidence that we have not had yet?
      The Attorney-General: No; evidence I think that your Lordship has had.
      The Commissioner: Well, will you tell me who it is that speaks to it?
      The Attorney-General: I think Jewell did.
      The Commissioner: Do you know which Witness it was?
      The Attorney-General: That is what we are trying to find, my Lord.
      Mr. Butler Aspinall: It is not in my recollection that it has been proved.
      The Attorney-General: Well, we will see.
      The Commissioner: Nor is it in the recollection of any of my colleagues. It may be that you have read it.
3120. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) I think so, my Lord. In some of these documents there is a statement about it. (To the Witness.) With regard to the number of people that you took from the other boat into yours, did you count them, or is it a guess about the number? - I counted them.
3121. And you counted them as being twelve? - Yes.
3122. I tell you why I am asking you these questions, because another Witness, by the name of Lucas, has been called, and he told us of this transfer of passengers, and he spoke of 36 being put into your boat? - I can explain that to you.
3123. Will you explain it? - Because the 36 men, that Lucas said he had transferred from one boat to another, he is meaning the boat picked up by Mr. Lightoller, the upturned boat, the collapsible boat. That was at dawn on the Monday morning. That is where Lucas made the mistake - from one boat to another.
3124. You think that is how the confusion may have arisen. You say you counted 12 into your boat? - 12 women from Mr. Lowe's boat. This was about three o'clock in the morning.

Examined by MR. SCANLAN.

3125. How many men do you think would be required to man one of these lifeboats? - Five.
3126. Five sailors? - Five sailors, four and a coxswain.
3127. Would that number be sufficient to enable you to row even in stormy weather? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: Another man said 12, did he not?
      Mr. Scanlan: He said 12, my Lord.
      The Witness: 12 is a full boat's crew, my Lord.
3128. If you had every oar in use you would require 12? - You would require 13.
3129. When you speak of a crew of 13 do you mean a number of stokers and stewards as well as seamen? - As well as seamen.
3130. How came it that your boat, No. 12, left the "Titanic" with only two seamen? Were there any others on the deck at the time? - No, only the two men that were lowering the boat.
3131. Now you stated that Mr. Lightoller warned you that the falls might give way? - Yes.
3132. If you took on any more passengers? - Yes.
3133. Were not the falls for this boat No. 12 similar in every way to the falls of the other boats? - Quite so, bar No. 1 and No. 2.
3134. What was the difference between the falls of No. 12 and the falls of Nos. 1 and 2? - No. 1 and No. 2 are small boats; No. 12 is a large lifeboat.
3135. On all the large lifeboats like No. 12 were the falls similar? - Exactly the same.
3136. Do not you know that a number of the other boats were lowered with a full complement of passengers, 65? - That I could not say.
3137. You do not know that. Where did you expect to find a lantern? - Tied up in the after thwarts.
3138. Is that the place where in ordinary practice the lantern is kept? - Yes.

Page 86

3139. At what stage of the voyage is it put there? - Before the commencement of the voyage.
3140. Did you make a careful search for the lantern? - Yes.
3141. Did you search for it before lowering the boat? - No.
3142. Did you find in this boat, No. 12, a compass? - No.
3143. Can you tell my Lord if there was a compass in the boat? - There was not a compass in the boat.
3144. Had the boat a sea anchor? - Yes.
3145. I understand your previous experience extends to Royal Mail liners, and that you have been sailing on them for about three years? - Yes.
3146. Was it usual on all those to have a muster of the crew for boat drill? - Yes.
3147. Does that take place every week? - Every Saturday afternoon.
3148. Had there been such a muster on the "Titanic"? - There had not been a muster, but there had been boat drill.
3149. Is that the boat drill which took place at Southampton? - Yes.
3150. Which consisted merely of lowering two boats? - And going away and coming back; a Board of Trade muster.
3151. It did not provide for bringing the stokers on deck and showing them their stations? - No.
3152. I understand that you have been a look-out man at times? - No.
3153. Well, you have done look-out duty, I think you said? - I have.
3154. On the forecastle-head? - Yes.
3155. On what kind of ships? - On the Royal Mail boats, and also on the "Oceanic" and the "Teutonic."
3156. And those are ships which have crow's-nests as well? - Yes.
3157. On those boats has it been the practice to have as well as the look-out man in the crow's-nest, a look-out man at the forecastle-head? - Yes, and the White Star Liners always do have one.
3158. From your experience is the forecastle-head a good place from which to keep a look-out? - Well, it is.
3159. (The Commissioner.) Is it better than the crow's-nest? - No, my Lord.
3160. (Mr. Scanlan.) Would it be better for icebergs than the crow's-nest? - No.
3161. Were you provided with binocular glasses on those other liners? - Well, you are.
3162. (The Commissioner.) Do you use them? - Yes, my Lord.
3163. Is your sight bad? - No.
3164. (Mr. Scanlan.) Are binocular glasses given to the look-out men in the crow's-nest, and also to the look-out man at the forecastle-head? - Yes.
3165. You have had them yourself? - Yes, and used them.
3166. Did you find it of advantage to have them? - It is in the day, but I cannot say anything about at night.
3167. Did you see collapsible boats being got off? - No.
3168. In the lowering of the other boats when you were assisting on deck, were you in a position to see whether they had lanterns? - Not in the boats.
3169. When you were clearing them? - No, we only cut the covers off and threw them on one side.
3170. When you hailed the other boats in the course of the night before being rescued by the "Carpathia," did you observe whether or not they had lanterns? - Nobody had a light; only Mr. Lowe had a flash electric light belonging to himself, I believe.
3171. Is it your evidence that all the boats you came across from leaving the "Titanic" until you were rescued were unprovided with lanterns? - Yes, quite right.
3172. Did this make it specially dangerous for you in navigating your boats at night? - Not necessarily.
3173. (The Commissioner.) No harm occurred as far I know from there being no lanterns on board? - No, my Lord, none whatever.

Examined by MR. HARBINSON.

3174. Do you know how many third-class passengers were in the fore part of this "Titanic"? - No.
3175. You say you saw a great number about when you were going down on the well deck? - When I was coming up from the well deck.
3176. That would be about three quarters of an hour after the collision? - Yes.
3177. With regard to this bulkhead that you have spoken of, which broke, it separated your compartment from the third-class compartment; it ran between them? - Yes.
3178. Did the breaking of that bulkhead involve the flooding of the third-class compartment? - The third-class compartment was flooded.
3179. Before the bulkhead broke at all? - Yes.
3180. Did you see people come up? - Yes.
3181. Were they up at the time? - They were up when I came up from the forecastle.
3182. Had you heard previous to that any instructions given by the officers to the passengers in the third-class compartment? - No.
3183. You heard none given? - No, none whatever.
3184. (The Commissioner.) Were you anywhere where you could hear any orders? - No. I was up clearing away the boats; if an order was given that is where I was.
      The Commissioner: It is no use asking that because he was not in a place where he could hear.
      Mr. Harbinson: He did not hear.
      The Commissioner: Of course, he did not if he was not in a place where he could.
3185. (Mr. Harbinson.) About how many men were left on the well deck when you put off in the boat? - I could not exactly say.
3186. Was there a big crowd? - There was a crowd.
3187. Mainly third-class passengers? - All third-class passengers.
3188. And in this boat that was lowered there were only two seamen? - In my boat.
3189. You pulled away, I understand, about 150 yards from the "Titanic"? - Yes.
3190. I gather you to say that if there had been more seamen in your boat you could have gone to the assistance of the cries? - I could.
3191. It was because of insufficient manning that you were unable to rescue? - Quite so.

Examined by MR. HOLMES.

3192. The number of 40 that you have given us of passengers that got into your boat was only a rough estimate on your part. You did not count them? - That is correct.
3193. Do you know whether Mr. Lowe counted them? - No.
3194. Did the boat appear to you to be sufficiently full when it was lowered? - Yes, because people with lifebelts on take up room for two.
3195. You told us that the boat was being rushed by some of the third-class passengers? - Yes.
3196. Had that anything to do with the anxiety to get the boat lowered and out of the way? - Yes, it was a great inconvenience.
3197. It was advisable to get it away at once? - Yes.

Page 87

Examined by MR. LEWIS.

3198. I understand you assisted in lowering a number of boats before you went to your own? - Yes.
3199. How long did it take you before you reached your own boat? - About 45 or 50 minutes.
3200. When you came to your own boat were there any other sailors there? - Yes, three.
3201. They assisted to lower the boat? - Yes, and went in the boat.
3202. Were you ordered out of your boat? - Yes, I was ordered out of it.
3203. You subsequently returned? - I was ordered out of the boat by Mr. Lightoller.
3204. Did you go? - Yes.
3205. Did you subsequently return? - I said to Mr. Lightoller, "There is no seaman in that boat." He said "all right, go back again."
3206. Because there was no seamen in the boat you were allowed to go back? - Yes.
3207. With regard to third-class passengers, from your general knowledge, would they be allowed under ordinary circumstances upon the boat deck? - No.
3208. They would be kept back if they made any attempt? - No doubt they would.
3209. Who would they be kept by - the Master-at-arms? - The Master-at-arms and the stewards.
3210. I suppose the Master-at-arms was on duty upon this evening? - Yes.
3211. And as far as you know the rules would be in operation then as on ordinary occasions? - Yes.
3212. (The Commissioner.) Do not you know that all barriers were down? - All barriers were not down.
3213. We have been told all barriers were down. Were any barriers down? - I never saw any.
3214. If they were not how did the third-class passengers get to the boat deck? - Up the ladder leading from the after-well deck.
3215. And how then? - Up through the second-class companion way.
3216. Would there be no barriers there, keeping them from getting through the second-class? - The doors were locked at the time; the second cabin doors, where they had entrance to go on to the boat deck, were locked.
3217. Those had been unlocked, had they? - I could not say.
3218. How do you account for the third-class passengers being there? - That is the only way up, my Lord, from the afterpart of the ship.
3219. They had been able to find their way there somehow? [No Answer.]
3220. (Mr. Lewis.) How many third-class passengers did you observe, grouped together? I think you said you saw passengers grouped? - On the fore-well deck - about a hundred.
3221. Under ordinary circumstances would it be difficult for third-class passengers to get from one portion of the vessel to the other? - Yes.
3222. I suppose more difficult when there is a crowd? - Sure.
3223. When you took the men off the up-turned boat. I think you took a number of men into your lifeboat? - Quite right.
3224. About how many had you in the boat then? - About 90.
3225. Was it dangerous? - The starboard gunwale was getting under water every time anybody moved.
3226. If there had been a slight breeze it would have been dangerous? - There would have been no chance whatever.
3227. I understand you have served in other companies besides the White Star? - Yes.
3228. The Union Castle? - No.
3229. The Royal Mail? - Yes.
3230. Do I understand that in that company they have a larger number of hands in proportion to their tonnage than the White Star? - Yes.
3231. (The Commissioner.) Have you studied the subject? - Yes.
3232. Then you can tell me the tonnage of one of the Royal Mail boats and the number of lifeboats on her? - There is one Royal Mail boat that I was in about 3,000 odd tons.
3233. Can you tell me the tonnage of a Royal Mail boat and the number of boats on board that vessel, and the name of the vessel? - I can tell the name of the vessel but I could not tell you the tonnage.
3234. Then how do you know that the proportion is greater? - Because the "Titanic" was four times her size.
3235. I want you to answer not too readily but after thinking. I want to have accurate evidence if I can get it. You told me there is a larger proportion of lifeboats according to the tonnage, on the Royal Mail boats than there was upon the "Titanic"? - Yes.
3236. Now can you give me the tonnage of a Royal Mail boat and the number of boats upon that Royal Mail boat, and her name? - I do not know exactly the tonnage, but it is 3,000 odd.
3237. What is the name of the boat? - The "Arragon."
3238. Over 3,000 tons? - I have the tonnage in my pocket.
3239. The "Arragon" over 3,000 tons?
      The Attorney-General: He says he has it in his pocket.
3240. (The Commissioner.) Very well, let me see it. (To the Witness.) What is the proportion of lifeboat accommodation? - Sixteen.
3241. And how many is each boat intended to carry? - Fifty to sixty.
3242. Now let me see it. (The document was handed to the Commissioner.) The tonnage on this paper is 5,397? - Yes, my Lord, it would be. That is from the Board of Trade.
3243. You said "over 3,000."
      Sir Robert Finlay: "Three thousand odd" was his expression.
3244. (The Commissioner.) On this paper it is 5,000 odd - 5397. Where does the lifeboat accommodation appear on this paper? - The lifeboats do not appear upon that, but I know from experience.
      The Attorney-General: I think he was on her. I do not know whether he served on her; I think he did.
3245. (The Commissioner - To the Witness.) Did you serve on her? - Yes, my Lord.
3246. (Mr. Lewis.) The tonnage is something over 5,000 tons I understand? - Yes.
3247. What is roughly the tonnage of the "Titanic"? - Forty-six thousand odd, I believe.
3248. How many boats were on the "Titanic"? - Sixteen, and four rafts.
3249. And how many on the boat you speak about? - Sixteen.
3250. Would they be the same size, or smaller? - Near about the same size.
      The Commissioner: It is really no use whatever. If this evidence is to be of value it must be accurate. "Near about" conveys nothing to my mind.
      Mr. Lewis: You have the evidence that this boat was over 5,000 tons.
      The Commissioner: Yes, he began by saying 3,000.
      Mr. Lewis: Yes, but he had the figures in his pocket, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: It makes a good deal of difference if he was thinking of 3,000 tons, when he said the proportion of lifeboats was in excess. He may have been right, but it makes a great deal of difference if the 3,000 is altered to 5,000.
      Mr. Lewis: And also if the lifeboats are smaller. It is common knowledge that the accommodation provided by that particular company is much better than that provided by the White Star Company.
      The Commissioner: That may be important, but if it is to be important to me it must be accurate.
      Mr. Lewis: Well, as near as possible, my Lord, but sailors as a rule are not particularly accurate.
      Sir Robert Finlay: There cannot be the slightest difficulty in getting authentic information.
      The Commissioner: The Royal Mail office will give you the information.
      The Attorney-General: We will take care that that evidence shall be brought before your Lordship. I quite appreciate it must be accurate.
      The Commissioner: He does not remember whether it was 3,000 or 5,000. It is no good.

Page 88

3251. (Mr. Lewis - To the Witness.) If you will tell us the number of boats carried on the Royal Mail boat I am content. Can you tell us? - 16.
3252. Can you tell us the number of men carried by the Royal Mail Company on the boat I referred to? - 50.
3253. How many A. B.'s? - Two to a boat.

Examined by MR. COTTER.

3254. How long have you been in the employ of the White Star Line? - About six months.
3255. When did you join the "Titanic"? - When she left Southampton. I joined the "Titanic" in Southampton.
3256. What do you mean by when she left Southampton? - I joined the "Titanic" in Southampton.
3257. How many days before she sailed? - On Good Friday.
3258. That is about five days before she sailed? - Yes.
3259. (The Commissioner.) She sailed on the Wednesday, did she not?
3260. (Mr. Cotter.) Yes, my Lord. (To the Witness.) You understood your way about? - Yes, slightly.
3261. When did you first go upon the boat deck? - Upon the Friday.
3262. Were you one of the men who took part in the boat drill? - Yes.
3263. Have you ever taken part in first-class ships in boat drill? - Yes.
3264. Will you tell the Court what really constitutes a boat's crew at boat drill? - Firemen, trimmers, stewards, and sailors.
3265. Can you tell us the numbers and the places in the boats? - On an average ten to a boat, two sailors, four firemen and perhaps four stewards.
3266. I put it to you that the boats' seats are all numbered No. 1, No. 2, No. 3 and No. 4? - That is quite right - to No. 6.
3267. Had you got any seat on any boat on the "Titanic"? - No.
3268. You simply got the number of a boat. Did you muster? - Yes.
3269. Who gave you the number of the boat? - I was told to get into the boat by Mr. Lightoller.
3270. Who gave you the number of the boat the day your name was called out at Southampton? - We never had a boat muster at Southampton - only the Board of Trade muster.
3271. When you answered your name, the day you joined the ship - ? - Who mustered us?
3272. Yes? - The chief officer.
3273. Did he give you the number of a boat when he called your name out? - No.
3274. How did you get the boat? - By looking at the boats' crew list which was posted up in the forecastle.
3275. Now, you said that the boats on board the "Titanic" numbered 16 and four rafts? - Yes.
3276. Did you mean rafts or Englehardt boats? - I term the collapsible boats rafts.
3277. But there is a collapsible boat and there is an Englehardt boat and there are rafts? - These boats the "Titanic" had had a wooden bottom with a canvas top.
3278. They are Englehardt's. Was there any collapsible boat there? - No.
3279. Were there any rafts? - No.
3280. Simply sixteen boats and four Englehardt's? - Yes.
3281. When you saw those third-class passengers and the stewards amongst them, were they making any effort at all to get to the boat deck? - None.
3282. Is there any way to the boat deck forward? - Yes.
3283. How? - From the forecastle, up two ladders.
3284. Where are they situated? - On the foremost port side of the ship.
3285. Where are the ladders? Will you show them to us? - There is one on the port side coming here along the well deck and going up on the promenade deck here - (pointing on the model.) On the starboard side there is no ladder, but on the next deck, on the lower promenade, as we call it, there is a ladder here, and also another one going on this deck.
3286. There is only one ladder going to the next deck? - Yes, on the port side.
3287. That is for the third-class passengers who want to get up, or the crew? - Yes.
3288. Are there any indication marks for finding the way up to the boat deck? - No.
3289. When you got to the boat deck you said you assisted to put out the boats. Were the boats in the chocks or were they slung? - They were already on the falls, but they were resting on half a chock - on the inboard chock.
3290. Had you any difficulty in getting the chocks from under the boats when you wanted to string them up? - No.
3291. How were the falls fastened to the davits holding the boats? - On to a clutch in the deck, a staghorn in the deck.
3292. Whereabouts were the ends of the falls? Were they situated near the boat or near the house? - The coils? Do you mean when the falls are in the boat?
3293. When you put them out where did you sling them? - On the deck - coiled them down on the amidship part of the deck.
3294. When the people came up they were standing on the falls? - They were.
3295. The result was they interfered with the falls in the middle of the deck and you had a difficulty in getting the people out of the way? - Yes.
3296. You stated somebody attempted to rush the boats? - Yes.
3297. Were they English people? - Foreigners.
3298. Were they members of the crew? - No, I never saw any members of the crew.
3299. She had no foreigners in the crew? - No, not that I know of.
3300. You do not know? - No.
3301. When the boats were hung out you were on the starboard side? - I was on the port side.
3302. The ship had a list? - Yes.
3303. Had you any difficulty in getting the women into the boat? - No.
3304. Did any women refuse to go in? - Yes.
3305. Why? - Because they would not leave their husbands.
3306. Did any refuse to go into the boat because they were afraid to step over the gap to the boat-side? - No.

Examined by MR. LAING.

3307. When Mr. Lightoller told you about the falls not being strong enough was that when the boat was being rushed? - Yes; the boat was already full.
3308. (The Commissioner.) No. How many were in the boat? - There were 40 in the boat, but the falls would not take any more.
      The Commissioner: Well, that is what Mr. Lightoller said. Apparently the falls had taken more in the other boats.
3309. (Mr. Laing.) When Mr. Lightoller said that was the boat being rushed or were they trying to rush the boat? - They were trying to rush the boat.
3310. Afterwards he told you to lower away? - Well, he did not tell me, he told the other two men.
3311. (The Commissioner.) They were men passengers to rush the boat? - Yes.
3312. Not the crew? - No.
3313. Not women? - No, my Lord.
3314. But men? - Yes.
3315. Trying to rush into the boat? - Yes.
3316. And was it then and in order to prevent them rushing into the boat that Mr. Lightoller said that the falls would not stand it? - No.
3317. What was it then? - When the boat had sufficient in he said that.
3318. There were not sufficient? - That is nothing to do with me, my Lord. I do not know if there is sufficient or not. I have to obey orders.

Page 89

3319. Yes, but I thought you told me the capacity of these boats was 65? - So it is, my Lord.
3320. Then did not you know that the boat was not full? - No, my Lord.
3321. You knew the capacity was 60 to 65. Did you know there were only 40 in it? - No, not at the time, my Lord.
3322. (Mr. Laing.) Mr. Lightoller was there, at all events? - Yes.
3323. And he was the officer who said this about the falls, you say? - Yes.
3324. The boat looked full to you as far as you could see? - Yes, it did.
3325. Did you mean to say that the Master-at-arms was keeping the passengers back? - I did not see him, I said it was his duty to do so - to keep people off the next deck.
3326. Do you mean under ordinary circumstances? - Yes.
3327. During the voyage? - Yes.
3328. But you did not mean to say - at least, I hope not - that the Master-at-arms was keeping these passengers back at this critical time? - I never saw him. If he was, no doubt he was the same as myself and he did not think any harm was coming.
3329. Now, with regard to the lights on the boats you saw none at all after the boats were all in the water? - No.
3330. Do not you think you may be mistaken? - I saw a light, I saw another accident boat burning a blue or a green light.
3331. I mean ordinary boat lights? - No, I did not.
3332. (The Commissioner.) The ordinary boats' light is white? - Yes.
3333. (Mr. Laing.) Did you see the lamp trimmer carrying about a lot of lighted lamps on the boat deck? - No.
3334. And serving them out to the boats? - I never saw the lamp trimmer whatever.
3335. Now, when you say that in the White Star Line they have a man forward in the forecastle-head as a look-out as well as in the crow's-nest, do you mean in dense fogs? - No, in any hazy weather whatever.
3336. In foggy weather? - Yes.
3337. Then they have a man forward on the lookout? - Yes, they generally put two extra men on the look-out.
3338. That is when they are blowing the whistle for a fog, is it? - Yes.
3339. (The Commissioner.) There was no fog on this night, was there? - No, my Lord.

(The Witness withdrew.)

JAMES JOHNSON, Sworn.

Examined by MR. ROWLATT.

3340. James Johnson, is that your name? - Yes.
3341. You live, I think, in Liverpool? - Yes.
3342. Were you on the "Titanic" as saloon steward? - In the saloon, not the saloon steward.
3343. Which saloon was it? - The first saloon. I was night watchman; I had charge of the night watch. There were five of us went on every night.
3344. I want to get the part of the ship first - which was it? - The first saloon.
3345. Where is that situated in the ship? - By the exit doors from A, B, and C down to E deck to the engine room; the saloon is in front of that, through the pantry.
3346. Do you understand that plan; can you see it? - Yes, I have an idea.
3347. Can you see where the engine room is? - Yes, it was in front of that. It ran through that blue mark, I should think. The first big blue one.
3348. Can you see the funnels? - Yes.
3349. Do you know where your saloon was with reference to the funnels? Do you know where the engineers' room was? - Yes.
3350. There it is? - I say the first large blue mark would be the entrance door.
3351. "Third-class galley and stewards," I see there? - Yes, the working stairs.
3352. Were you further along here (pointing)? - Yes.
3353. The first-class dining saloon? - Yes.
3354. Was it your job to go on every night? - Yes.
3355. Did you go on the night of the accident? - I went on at 11 o'clock.
3356. You simply had to go into the saloon and wait? - Well, no. Everyone gets a watch and at 12 o'clock when the bedroom stewards turn over we take their watch. There is a bedroom steward and a night watchman on each deck, and all the third-class and all the second-class reported to me each night when they came on watch.
3357. Now what you had to do was simply to stay in that saloon as I understand? - No, I took E - what they call the saloon - the reception room and the pantry, on.
3358. Where were you when the accident happened? - About the amidships saloon, I should think. We were all talking a few chairs up. It would be about the third or fourth table up.
3359. In that big saloon? - Yes.
3360. Did you feel the shock? - I did not feel much because we thought she had lost her wheel or something, and somebody passed the remark, "Another Belfast trip."
3361. Another what? - To go back to Belfast it meant.
3362. Do you belong to Belfast? - I belong to Scotland.
3363. Did you do anything in consequence of feeling a shock? - I had a look round first and then I asked a man when he came up for some hot water, "Do you mind going down to the engine room and have a look." He went down and came back and said, "I think it is a bit hot" - that is a racing phrase. He meant it was a bit serious.
3364. Do you know who that was? - I have found out afterwards, but I did not know then. I only knew our own division. I never knew anyone but those in our own stewards' department.
3365. He was a greaser, was he not? - I think he was.
3366. You do not know his name? - I think he might have been a man they called White. I have found out, but I do not know whether it is right or not.
3367. Did you do anything after that? - Yes; I went down and walked along the saloon and saw Mr. Andrews come down and go down to the engine room, and then I saw the Captain directly following him, and then I followed Mr. Andrews after he came up from the engine room.
3368. Now tell me who is Mr. Andrews? - Well, one of the best known among our division, because he did anything for us we asked him.
3369. But who is he? - He is one of the builders.
3370. He is the representative of the builders? - Yes.
3371. And he and the Captain came through? - No, he came three or four minutes before the Captain.
3372. Through the saloon you were in? - He had to come down through the stairs to get down to the engine room to get on to E deck; he had to go down through those stairs.
3373. And then he gets into the alleyway and got to the engine room? - Just turn to the left and he is in it.
3374. Did he go in that direction? - I do not know. I know he went down.
3375. Did the Captain go down after him? - Directly after.
3376. Did you stay where you were? - No; I put four oranges into my pocket. I might have done it after, but I think I did it then.

Page 90

3377. Did you follow the captain or stay where you were? - No; I waited a minute and followed Mr. Andrews.
3378. What happened next? - Mr. Andrews went through the saloon after this man came and told me it was a bit thick. I followed Mr. Andrews and went down to E deck to see if Duscheck was there. He was down there on watch in that deck. I went down to E deck and saw Mr. Andrews go down by the baggage room or mail room. One door goes down and the other does not.
3379. It is lower down still? - Yes.
3380. Is that the same part of the ship? Are you still speaking of the same part of the ship? - It is a little bit farther forward, past the reception room.
3381. Is that it? (pointing on the plan) - Give it another 50 yards.
3382. Was it as far as the squash racket? - Opposite the squash racket.
3383. That is a good way forward, is it not? - Yes.
3384. The baggage room is there, is it? - Well, they were handling mails or something; when I looked there was water there then.
3385. In the baggage room? - Yes, it is on F deck, underneath E.
3386. The squash racket is on two decks, is it not? - I do not think so.
3387. Does not that go up through two decks? - No.
3388. Surely it is higher? - You are asking me a question and I am answering you. I say it is on F deck. You have to go down from E to it.
3389. It is on F deck, and is it not on G deck too? - No.
3390. Now where is the first-class baggage? It is on G deck - the baggage room? - No, I do not think so. I never went further than that, and I think it was in that.
3391. Will you understand this if I show you the plan.
3392. (Sir Robert Finlay.) It is on G deck.
      The Witness: Well, it is a little bit further down. The baggage room was not on G deck.
3393. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Is it not? - The mail room is on E, F.
3394. The baggage room and mail room are on this deck. Come and look at the plan and then we shall not quarrel. We had better understand it once for all.
      (The Witness examined the plan with the learned Counsel.)
      The Commissioner: Which deck is it?
      Mr. Rowlatt: G.
      The Commissioner: Very well.
3395. (Mr. Rowlatt.) You looked into the baggage room? - No, I looked down the stairs.
3396. You saw into it, and saw there was water there? - Yes.
3397. How long should you say after the shock was it that you saw water in the baggage room? - I went down to call the second steward, Mr. Dodd. I took plenty of time and it must have been a good twenty-five minutes after I met Mr. Wheat coming up, and he said "What is it?" I said "I think it is a bit serious."
3398. Who said that? - I said I thought it was a bit serious.
3399. Whom to? - To Mr. Wheat, the assistant second steward. He is living now, I think he was the only one I met there at the time.
3400. Had you seen Mr. Andrews in the reception room? - I saw him speaking to some ladies, and they were all in a bunch and he said he thought it would be all right. He said, "Be easy, it will be all right." I asked him, and he said; "All right."
3401. Were those first-class passengers? - Yes, all first-class passengers just at the corner of the reception room, down the companion stairs.
3402. After you found there was water in the baggage room, what did you do next? - After I had called Mr. Wheat I went away down and changed my clothes in the glory hole, and put this suit of clothes on.
3403. Which is the glory hole? - No. 3 glory hole on E deck.
3404. Where is that? - It is situated half between the two exit doors. There is one from the first-class companion on to the working alleyway, and then there is one for the boys to go down to the engine room.
3405. On E deck? - On to E deck. There is an exit right from the saloon companion to the working deck.
3406. You went down there? - Yes.
3407. And whom did you find there? - All the boys were in bed when I went down there.
3408. Who are the "boys"? - All the stewards. They are called "boys."
3409. After you had gone there, did you go up again? - I went up again, and I walked up through the companion, and I saw Mr. Latimer, the Chief Steward. You could not make any mistake about him, he was too big. There was Mr. McElroy and the purser standing by the officers, and two or three officers on C deck.
3410. Had you a lifebelt then? - I had no lifebelt then. I went down for it after.
3411. You had gone down and fetched your clothes, but you did not bring your lifebelt? - I went down for that after, again.
3412. You had a lifebelt? - Yes.
3413. In your bunk - in your quarters? - Yes, everybody had a lifebelt.
3414. You saw all these people you have mentioned? - Yes.
3415. What happened next? - I went out on the top. I thought I might have made a mistake in the boat station list, and I went to look at it again. I said "I will have a sky again."
3416. You went to look at the list? - Yes.
3417. Had you seen it before? - Yes, I had seen it on Thursday afternoon.
3418. Where was your list? - In the pantry on the port side, right opposite the chief steward's office.
3419. Had that been there from the beginning? - It was there from Thursday afternoon.
3420. Do you mean you saw it put up? - I did see it because I went and looked for my name, and I knew where my boat was.
3421. You went and looked at it again? - Yes, I went to make sure I had not made a mistake.
3422. Had you heard any order to go to the boats? - Nothing at all then. I did it on a principle of my own, being Scotch, I suppose.
3423. Then did you see what your boat was? - I went and had a look at it.
3424. What was it? - One of the small boats - the emergency boat No. 2.
3425. That is on the port side? - Yes, abaft the bridge.
3426. Was it slung? - It was slung out outside the rails. It was all right when I saw it.
3427. Do I understand you went up there then? - Yes, I had a look round, and I spoke to one man. I should know him if I saw him again. I looked in the boat to see if the plug and everything was right. I came out again and stood by for a bit, and the second steward said to me, "Hold this." It was his lifebelt and his dustcoat. I never saw him after that. I suppose he went West.
3428. When you got up to the boat this first time were there many people up there? - There were not many people wanted to go in at all, because they all wanted to travel. They seemed to travel in heaps.
3429. Were there plenty of people on the boat deck? - Yes, plenty, but they would not go into our boat.
3430. Were the crew mustering there at the boats? - I think Mr. Wilde asked, "What boat do you belong to" I said, "No. 2." I am sure he had the list because he said, "That is right." He said, "Can you pull" I said, "Certainly." He said, "Stand by the falls."
3431. Did you stand there by the falls? - I stood a little bit longer.
3432. You said you went to get your lifebelt. When did you do that? - I went for my overcoat down below again. The Chief Steward told me to get upon deck, and go to my boat again. By that time the water was coming to the foot of the companion -

Page 91

3433. One moment; was it after that that Mr. Wilde spoke to you? - Yes, after that I went down for my coat.
3434. And you came up again? - Yes.
3435. Did you go to your boat again? - Certainly.
3436. Was there anybody in it? - No, there was nobody in it - not a soul.
3437. What was happening at your boat? - There were about eight or ten firemen, and I asked if they belonged to it, and some of them seemed to hesitate - they did not know.
3438. Were there women there? - There might have been about four or five.
3439. Did they go in? - No. We did not lower for a good ten minutes after that.
3440. Was any officer there? - An officer got into the boat afterwards. This man handed me a lamp out of the boat. I saw a lamp standing on the deck. It was ready-lit. I said, "It will be all right for us," so I stowed it in there.
3441. Had you seen whether the plug was in the boat? - Yes.
3442. And had it oars? - Yes, four oars.
3443. Had it any provisions? - I saw a loaf lying on the deck and a box of biscuits lying on the deck, but nobody seemed to care whether he put it in or not.
3444. When you came up again I think you said nobody was in the boat? - No.
3445. Could you explain how the boat came to be filled with people? - I got to the forward fall. I had asked one of the firemen (I do not know whether fireman or trimmer) "Have you a knife? There is no knife in the boat." I had looked at the fall because anybody lowering the fall with a jerk might shove it off the blocks. I thought I must have a knife if nobody else had one. I asked the man and he handed me a razor. He told me his name was McCuliffe. He said "Remember me at Southampton and give it me back."
3446. You took it? - Yes.
3447. And you stood by the fall? - Yes.
3448. Was anybody else in the boat then? - There was no one else then. Then the women and children got into it.
3449. Who put them in? - The chief officer.
3450. Were they women and children? - Yes; they could walk right into it because there were either gratings or something, you had only to step half-a-foot on to the ledge and into the boat.
3451. That was on the boat deck? - Yes.
3452. How long did that boat stay in that position on the boat deck? - She must have stayed a good quarter of an hour.
3453. Were there any other people standing by waiting to go in? - No, I saw 30 or 40 ladies going down the deck again. - No 2 boat is here, here is the companion right down there - right down to A deck.
3454. (The Commissioner.) Going back to their berths do you mean? - No, I do not think they were; they did not seem to realise that there was anything wrong.
3455. (Mr. Rowlatt.) So far as you saw they were going off the boat deck? - Yes.
3456. Down to the deck below? - Yes.
3457. And how much further you could not, of course, tell? - No.
3458. Was there any call for women and children at that boat? - All the women and children that were there could have got in. We could have put more in; in fact, we had not a full complement.
3459. Can you tell us at all what classes were represented? - I could not.
3460. When all the women that wanted to go in were in was the boat lowered? - No, it was put down perhaps 3 or 4 feet. They were told to go down to A deck to see if anybody else wanted to come in. There was nobody came down to A deck. It stopped opposite A deck.
3461. It looks from here as if there was a window there? - There is A deck (pointing on the model.)
3462. If it is lowered to A deck it looks as if it is outside a window? - There was no window, it was a free passage.
3463. Did anybody get in at A deck? - No, there was nobody to get in.
3464. Then what happened? - We got lowered, and then we cut her adrift. The razor came in handy.
3465. You did use it? - Yes, we had to because nobody else had a knife. The ropes were a little bit jerky, but they came down properly.
3466. When you got to the bottom you cut adrift with the razor? - They slipped all right enough. It was in other boats the same. All companies have been the same I have been in. They would fall off with a little bit of a jerk.
3467. You got free? - Yes.
3468. How many people were there in your boat? - I think 23 to 25.
3469. Is she as big a boat as the others? - Certainly not.
3470. Was she full, in your judgment? - She would not be full, but she would have been full in a heavy sea. She was not full according to how we were.
3471. Was anybody that wanted to get on that boat kept back? - Not at all, certainly not.
3472. Were there any seamen in that boat? - There was one. He said he was a seaman. We saw a light and we pulled for that light. I do not know whether he was a seaman or not.
3473. Was there an officer in the boat? - Yes.
3474. Who was he? - I do not know his name; I should know him if I saw him.
3475. The fourth officer, was it not? - I think it would be him.
3476. And somebody who said he was a seaman? - Yes.
3477. Was there any other man beside yourself? - There was a foreigner, and I think the other one was a cook or something. He told me afterwards he was a cook.
3478. And any passenger men? - No, that was all the men.
3479. All the rest were women and children? - Yes.
      The Attorney-General: The cubic capacity of an emergency boat is 40 persons, my Lord.
3480. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Mr. Boxhall is the 4th Officer, is he not? - I did not know them by their names.
3481. You said something about seeing a light? - Yes.
3482. Did you see that light from the deck of the "Titanic"? - I should think we saw it for about twenty minutes on the port bow.
3483. How broad from the port bow? - I should think from where I was standing we pulled a mile and a half or two miles after it.
3484. Was it nearly right ahead? - No, something like an angle.
3485. A right angle? - A left angle from the port bow rather.
3486. Now face the same way as the ship in that model? - Yes, it was there about and the boat was there, and it was lying like that. (demonstrating.) I should consider it would be about eight or ten miles off.
3487. But that is not the angle you know. A little clear of the bow on the left hand side as you looked towards the bow? - A little more aft.
3488. One of the Witnesses said two points? - I do not know a point unless it is in billiards.
3489. Did you row for that light? - Certainly.
3490. How many oars did the boat row? - We had four? - I think there were two rowing and the other two dipping. I think two could row and the other two were dipping.
3491. They were simply dipping their oars? - Well, they were doing their best.
3492. Which were you doing, rowing or dipping? - I think I was rowing.
3493. Was somebody steering? - Sometimes there was a girl steering and sometimes an officer steering. He was telling her what to do and he was helping the foreigner at the other oar to pull. He was pulling a stroke oar.

Page 92

3494. Did the officer direct you to steer to the light? - We took a star and got this star underneath us and kept it in front of us, and tried not to get away from it.
3495. Did you see the light all the time? - No, we lost it, it disappeared.
3496. How long do you think you were rowing towards the light? - By the time we came back again and pulled round the stern of the "Titanic" we must have pulled a mile and a half, I should think a good half-hour.
3497. You came back to the "Titanic"? - Yes, round the stern of the "Titanic."
3498. How far off from the stern did you come round? - I should think about 800 yards.
3499. How long was that before she sank? Did you see her sink? - Yes.
3500. How long before you saw her sink did you get back to her? - We went back and rowed round, and the officer said to the ladies, "Do you think we should go back or not?"
3501. How long before she sank did you get back to the region of the "Titanic" after you had been looking for the light? - I suppose a good half-hour before she sank.
3502. Then you had not gone very far towards the light? - A mile and a half. I am certain we pulled that.
3503. Did this light seem to get fainter or did it disappear suddenly? - When we got away it disappeared altogether.
3504. What coloured light was it? - I think it was red. I think there were two lights, in fact, a red and a white light.
3505. (The Commissioner.) Are you sure? - I can discern any sort of colour, racing, a mile and a quarter off, and I think I could see a red light.
3506. Are you sure? - I am certain.
3507. What are you certain about? - I am certain there was a light. The Captain told the officer to pull for that light.
3508. Are you sure there were two lights? - I am certain there were two lights. The Captain told the officer to pull for that light and come back again.

(The Witness withdrew.)

(Adjourned to tomorrow at 10.30 o'clock.)