Wreck Commissioners' Court. SCOTTISH HALL, BUCKINGHAM GATE, Tuesday, 7th May, 1912. PROCEEDINGS THE RIGHT HON. LORD MERSEY, Wreck Commissioner of the United Kingdom, WITH REAR ADMIRAL THE HON. S. A. GOUGH-CALTHORPE, C.V.O., R.N., CAPTAIN A. W. CLARKE, COMMANDER F. C. A. LYON, R.N.R., PROFESSOR J. H. BILES, LL.D., D.Sc., MR. E. C. CHASTON, R.N.R. Acting as Assessors. ON A FORMAL INVESTIGATION ORDERED BY THE BOARD OF TRADE INTO THE LOSS OF THE S. S. "TITANIC." THIRD DAY. THE RIGHT HON. SIR RUFUS ISAACS, K.C., M.P. (Attorney-General), SIR JOHN SIMON, K.C., M.P. (Solicitor-General), MR. BUTLER ASPINAL, K.C., MR. S. A. T. ROWLATT and MR. RAYMOND ASQUITH (instructed by SIR R. ELLIS CUNLIFFE, Solicitor to the Board of Trade) appeared as Counsel on behalf of the Board of Trade. THE RIGHT HON. SIR ROBERT FINLAY, K.C., M.P., MR. P. LAING, K.C., MR. MAURICE HILL., K.C., and MR. NORMAN RAEBURN (instructed by Messrs. Hill, Dickinson and Co.), appeared as counsel on behalf of the White Star line. MR. THOMAS SCANLAN, M.P. (instructed by Mr. Smith, Solicitor), appeared as Counsel on behalf of the National Sailors' and Firemen's Union of Great Britain and Ireland and of the personal representatives of several deceased members of the crew and of survivors who were members of the Union. (Admitted On application.) MR. B0TTERELL (instructed by Messrs. Botterell and Roche) appeared on behalf of the Chamber of Shipping of the United Kingdom. (Admitted on application.) MR. THOMAS LEWIS appeared on behalf of the British Seafarers' Union. (Admitted on application.) MR. L. S. HOLMES (of Messrs. Miller, Taylor and Holmes, of Liverpool) appeared on behalf of the Imperial Merchant Service Guild. (Admitted on application.) MR. COTTER appeared on behalf of the National Union of Stewards. (Admitted on application.) MR. HAMAR GREENWOOD, M.P. (instructed by Messrs. Pritchard and Sons), watched proceedings on behalf of the Allan Line Steamship Company. MR. HAMAR GREENWOOD, M.P. (instructed by Messrs. William A. Crump and Son), watched proceedings for the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. MR. ROCHE (instructed by Messrs. Charles G. Bradshaw and Waterson) appeared on behalf of the Marine Engineers' Association. (Admitted on application.) MR. A. CLEMENT EDWARDS. M.P., appeared on behalf of the Dockers' Union. (Admitted on application.)

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Mr. Roche: I have an application to make to your Lordship on behalf of the Marine Engineers' Association. It is an application to take a limited part in this Inquiry, but there are certain things which affect the members of that society very deeply. It is an association, the largest, I think, and the most recognised association, of marine engineers in England, with 10,000 seagoing members, marine engineers. The magnitude of the society is shown by the fact that some half or a large proportion of the engineers of this unfortunate vessel were members of this society.

The Commissioner: That seems reasonable.

The Attorney-General: I see from the ratings there were 25 engineers on board. I think they ought to be represented.

Mr. Harbinson: May I make an application to your Lordship? I have been instructed on behalf of a section of third-class passengers, Irish passengers, 180 of whom left Queenstown on the "Titanic," and of whom I am informed only 20 were saved. I have been asked to apply to your Lordship, with the authority of the learned Attorney-General, for permission to take part in this Inquiry. I quite appreciate and understand that it will be undesirable that there should be any duplication or anything in the nature of overlapping in the evidence given or in the questions asked. That, my Lord, would be undesirable. With your Lordship's permission, perhaps, on behalf of this important section, I might supplement some of the others and add something to the information to be submitted to this Inquiry.

The Commissioner: Will you put down in writing the names and addresses of those whom you represent and hand it in to my secretary, and I will then consider your application?

Mr. Harbinson: That shall be done.

Mr. Clement Edwards, M. P.: May I make an application on behalf of the Dock, Wharf, and Riverside Workers' Union? There is an application before your Lordship stating the names of persons on whose behalf I seek to appear. I do not know whether your Lordship has it in mind.

The Commissioner: I have not seen such a paper, but you must give me the names and addresses of the persons who desire to be represented and state what the reasons are. If I grant all these applications, this Inquiry will get into a state of inextricable confusion, but I will try to give permission to everybody that I think ought to be heard, separately.

Mr. Edwards: I have here a copy of the written application.

The Commissioner: Well, then you must hand it in to my secretary, and I will look at it.

Dr. Jackson Wolfe: I appear for the relatives of a number of third-class passengers, Irish emigrants, who joined at Queenstown. I think there is some misapprehension as to the number of passengers.

The Commissioner: Is this an application on behalf of another section of third-class passengers?

Dr. Wolfe: Yes, my Lord, and I am in a position to hand in the names and addresses.

The Commissioner: Is it suggested I should allow the third-class passengers to be divided into groups, and each group to be separately represented?

Dr. Wolfe: If your Lordship would allow me to suggest, I am sure I could work in harmony with my friend.

The Commissioner: Then you must consult him, and when you have arrived at some sort of agreement, let me know.

Dr. Wolfe: I can hand in the names and addresses.

The Commissioner: You can hand it in together with the list which that gentleman is going to hand in.

Mr. Harbinson: I wish to say, my Lord, that Mr. Farrell, who instructed me to make the previous application to your Lordship on behalf of the third-class passengers, represents almost the whole of the number, and tomorrow morning he can have authority practically from the whole.

The Commissioner: Then what does that gentleman mean by telling me he represents a number?

Dr. Wolfe: The number I represent is 21. The total number of Irish passengers who joined at Queenstown is 113. Of those, 69 were drowned, and of those 69 who were drowned, the relatives of 21 have instructed the solicitor who has instructed me.

The Commissioner: You must put it all down so that I can understand it, but at present I am not at all disposed to let any one class split itself up into a number of groups and each group to be represented. I should not know really how to conduct this Inquiry if I did. (To Mr. Roche.) It has been suggested that I had not given you leave to appear; I certainly intended to do so.

Mr. Roche: And I so endorsed my brief, my Lord.

The Commissioner: Is there anyone else?

The Attorney-General: No, not that I am aware of.

GEORGE WILLIAM BEAUCHAMP, Sworn.

Examined by MR. RAYMOND ASQUITH.

  1. Is your name George William Beauchamp? - Yes.
  2. And were you a fireman on the "Titanic"? - Yes.
  3. Were you on duty on Sunday, the 14th, when the ship struck? - Yes.
  4. Where were you? - Eight to twelve watch.
  5. Were you down below in the stokehold? - Yes.
  6. Which stokehold was it? - No. 10.
  7. Can you see the plan from where you are? - The second one from the forward end.
  8. The second one from the bow? - Yes.
  9. Can you say what pressure of steam was being carried at that time? - I could not say.
    1. (The Commissioner.) Do you know anything about the pressure of steam? - We were carrying it where we had orders. What the orders were I could not say for certain.
  10. I do not want you to tell me anything you do not know yourself; I do not want you to guess. I want you only to tell us what you know yourself? - Sometimes they carry 210 and sometimes 200. I think we were carrying thereabout 210 then.
    The Attorney-General: We will get it from somebody else who knows it better.
    The Commissioner: I do not think he knows anything about it, and I should not expect him to.
    1. (Mr. Raymond Asquith - To the Witness.) Did you notice the shock when the ship struck? - Yes, Sir, I noticed the shock.
  11. Was it a severe shock? - Just like thunder, the roar of thunder.
  12. And immediately after the shock was any order given? - Yes.
  13. What order? - To stand by, to stop. - The telegraph went "Stop."
    1. (The Commissioner.) You got that order from the bridge, "Stop"? - Yes.
    2. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) And were the engines stopped at once or not? - The telegraph rung off "Stop," so I suppose they were.
  14. Did the engineer in your section give you any order? - Yes; the engineer and the leading stoker shouted together - they said, "Shut the dampers."
  15. Did you shut the dampers? - Yes, immediately; "shut everything up."
  16. Was anything done to the watertight doors after that time? - Yes, immediately the telegraph rang "off" and the order was given to shut up everything the watertight doors dropped.

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  1. The watertight doors dropped? - Yes.
    1. (The Commissioner.) How soon do you suppose after the order to "Stop" came from the bridge did the watertight doors close? - In less than five minutes.
    2. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Can you say which watertight doors they were - in which bulkhead they were? - The watertight doors shut. There was only one in the section where I was. They all shut all through.
    3. (The Commissioner.) Did not all the bulkheads close at one time? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: If the order came from the bridge to close the watertight bulkheads, would not they all simultaneously be closed?
      Mr. Butler Aspinall: I believe if they were all in working order they would.
    4. (The Commissioner.) I assume they would all close; they would not close some only. (To the Witness.) At all events, all you know is that those which were in your compartment were closed? - Yes, Sir.
    5. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) After the watertight doors were closed, was any order given to you with regard to the fires? - Yes, I could not say when - it was a few minutes afterwards; the order was given to draw fires.
669. A few minutes after what? - After the order was given to shut up, an order was given to draw fires. I could not say how many minutes, but the order was given to draw fires. 670. And did you obey that order? - Yes. 671. Did you see any water? - Water was coming in on the plates when we were drawing the fires. 672. What do you mean by "the plates"? - The plates of the stokehold where you stand. 672a. (The Commissioner.) You mean where the stokers were standing? - Yes. 673. What happened then? - The water was just coming above the plates then. 673a. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) You mean it was coming through the floor? - Yes, coming through the bunker door and over the plates. 674. Through the bunker door? - Yes, coming through the bunker like. 675. When you had drawn the fires what did you do next? - Waited till everything was shut down and an order was given. Someone shouted "that will do," when everything was safe, when everything was shut down. 676. What did you do? - When the order was given someone shouted "that will do," and so I went to the escape ladder. 677. Is that the ladder by which you get out of your stokehold when the watertight doors are closed? - Yes, the escape ladder. 678. Can you say how long it took to draw the fires? - I could not say how long it took, just the usual time; I could not say for certain. 679. What is the usual time - you have often done it, I suppose? - Yes, I have done it a good many times. Of course, it all depends what you have got in the fires as a rule. 680. Can you say whether it took a few minutes or half an hour? - It took about a quarter of an hour, I suppose. 681. Did you notice any more water coming through during that quarter of an hour? - When the order was given and everything was shut up, someone shouted "that will do," and I went to the ladder then, the escape ladder. 682. But I asked you did you notice any more water coming through as time went on; did it come through in greater quantities? - I was going up the ladder. 683. Your answer is you do not know - is that what you mean? - I do not know. 684. When you went up the ladder where did you go to? - I walked aft in the alleyway, right aft. 685. Which deck? - Where the stokehold doors were; I do not know what deck it was. 686. Did you go up to the boat deck? - Yes, I went right along aft up the companionway up to the boat deck. 687. Did you know what your boat station was? - No. 687a. (The Commissioner.) Why not? - The list was put that morning, they said, but I did not see it. 688. Does that mean to say you could have seen it but did not look? - I heard someone say it was put up, but did not look. 689. Therefore you did not know which was your boat? - No, Sir. 690. And that was because you had not looked to see? - Yes, I did not look to see. That is right, Sir. 690a. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) You say you heard a list had been put up that day? - Yes, that morning. 691. Had you looked to see if there was a list before that day? - There was no list before that day. 691a. (The Commissioner.) Had you looked, was the question. You did not look for this one. Had you looked to see whether there was a list? - Yes, Sir. 692. When did you look to see if there was a list? - You generally see anything put up like that. 693. When did you look to see if there was a list? - When I was going about in the daytime. 694. But when - how many days before? - I was in the room, and I did not see any notice up. 695. Answer the question. You say you looked for this list some time before, and that you did not see it. When was it you looked for it? - The second day out. 696. Did you tell anyone the list was not there? - No, I did not say anything about it. 697. Why did not you tell someone that the list was not there, if it was not there? - I never took any more notice of it. 698. Then you say you looked and found it was not there and you said nothing. Is that right? - Yes, that is right. 699. And then on the morning of the day on which the collision took place you know there was a list there hanging up? - I never saw it. 700. You did not look? - No. 700a. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) And not knowing where to go to, what your boat was, what did you do? Where did you go? - I went aft on to the boat deck, and across to the starboard side, and stood on the deck of the ship by the boat and one foot on the boat and one foot on the lifeboat, like that, and helped the ladies and children in that were there, and the order was given by the officer then, "Lower away the boat, that will do." 701. Which boat was it? - No. 13. 702. No. 13 on the starboard side? - Yes. 703. Who was looking after that? Was there an officer there looking after it? - On the deck giving orders, yes. The Commissioner: This is the starboard side (pointing to the plan.) Tell me where No. 13 boat was. The Attorney-General: Is not the model better for him, my Lord? The Commissioner: That is also the starboard side? The Attorney-General: Yes. The Commissioner: Now show me No. 13. (The Witness indicated the position on the model.) 703a. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Was there an officer looking after the loading of that boat? - Yes. 704. Who was he, do you know? - No, I could not say who he was. 705. Did he give you any order? - He said, "That will do in that boat. Who can pull oars?" I said, "I can." He said, "Get into that boat. Lower away. That will do." 706. How long were you there before the order to lower away was given? - I could not say how long it was. 707. Did you help many people to get into the boat? - Yes. The order was given, "That will do; that is enough for that boat," and I stepped into the boat and went away with it. 708. I want you to say, if you can, how the people were chosen that got into the boat? - Women and children first. 709. Were there a lot of people standing about

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Page 36 the boat or not? - There was. Some ladies would not come in the boat. 709a. (The Commissioner.) Did you say some lady or some ladies? - Some ladies. I heard one say it. 710. Some ladies refused to come in? - Yes. 710a. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) How many refused? - Well, I heard them saying - two or three of them saying, "No, I will not go; I will not go away in the boat." 711. Did they give any reason for refusing? - They did not give any reason, Sir. 712. However, you did put a good number of ladies into the boat? - Yes, all that would come. 713. Did you put any men in as well? - No, Sir. 714. Any passengers, I mean - any male passengers? - No, I never put any in. 714a. (The Commissioner.) Did any get in? - Yes, I suppose some of them. 714b. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Do you know how many, if any, got in? - I could not tell you the amount of male passengers there were in the boat. 714c. (The Commissioner.) The question is how many men got into the boat - men passengers? - I could not tell you the number. 715. Well, did some get in? - Yes. 716. Can you give us about how many? - I could not tell you the number that got there. 717. Was it 20? - I do not know. I never saw 20 get in. I stood like I could not see everything, helping the ladies and children in. 718. Then I suppose you took an oar after the boat went into the water, did you not? - Yes. 719. Well, you would see then how many men there were in the boat and how many women? - No. I was keeping the boat off the ship's side with an oar. 720. How long were you in that boat before you were picked up? - It was 10 minutes to 10 when I was picked up by the "Carpathia." 721. The next morning? - Yes. 722. Very well then, you were in the boat a very long time. Cannot you remember how many men there were in it and how many women passengers? - No, I could not say how many men there were in there. The boat was full, 70 - about 60 or 70 I should think all told. 722a. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Before the boat was lowered, while people were still getting in, were there a lot of men passengers as well as women passengers on the deck? - Yes, there were a lot on the deck all round there. 723. Did they try to get in or was it orderly? - Quite orderly. Everyone obeyed orders. Everything was quite calm. 724. Could you tell whether the people that you saw standing round that boat were third-class passengers or first-class passengers? - No, Sir. 725. You did not know which they were? - No. 726. Who was in charge of that boat after it had been lowered? - The leading stoker and a sailor in the sheet ends of it. They were both in charge. I could not tell you which took charge of her. 727. Do you know their names? - Only Barrett. I think he took the tiller. He was giving orders. Barrett, the leading stoker. 728. How many of the crew were in this boat? - I could not say how many of the crew altogether that was in this boat. 729. There was you, and a sailor, and Barrett, the stoker? - Yes. 730. Did you have any difficulty in lowering and launching the boat? - Yes, we had a difficulty, because we were under the engine room discharge. 731. Did water come into your boat? - No. Everything lowered easily right till she got to the bottom, to the discharge, then we had a difficulty in keeping it away from the ship's side, to prevent the water coming in. 732. Did you succeed in keeping her away from the side and getting off? - Yes. 733. Did you have any difficulty in getting the boat free from the falls? - Yes. The boat was crowded. We could not get to the lever to get the blocks out. 733a. (The Commissioner.) That was because the people were in your way? - Yes, because the boat was crowded. 734. You had to push through? - You could not get through to where the lever was. 734a. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) What did you do? - Barrett cut one end of the falls and a sailor cut the other. 735. What did you do when you got free of the falls; did you row away or did you stand by the ship? - We pulled a little way away and then laid on the oars. 736. Can you say about how far you pulled away? - Well, I could not judge the distance; it was not very far away. 737. Do you mean 100 yards or do you mean half a mile? - It was not half a mile. 738. Could you see from where you were what was going on on the deck of the vessel? - Yes, we could see what was going on. 739. How long did you remain there? - We pulled on our oars again then and pulled further away because of the suction of the ship. 740. What I asked you was how long did you remain in your original position? - What, stopped pulling the oars? 741. No. You told me you first of all rowed a short way away from the ship. How long did you stay in that position? - I could not say how long it was. 742. How long was it between the time when you launched your boat and the time when the ship sank? Can you say that? - Well, I should say about half an hour. 743. Within half an hour she sank? - Yes. 743a. (The Commissioner.) I want to ask a question about that. How long were you upon No. 13 boat getting her into the water? How long did it take you to get her into the water? - I could not say the time, but not very long. 744. What do you mean by not very long? - Everything worked all right and very easily till we got to the engine room discharge. 745. Yes, and then you had to push the boat away with your oar from the ship's side? - Yes. 746. But how long were you altogether in getting that boat launched, getting the passengers in, getting in yourselves, letting her down, cutting the falls, and getting her into the sea? - I could not say. 747. Can you give me no idea? - Well, as quickly as possible. Every man did the best he could. 748. I have no doubt of that, but how long did it take? - I could not say the time. 749. Did it take an hour? - No, not an hour, certainly not. 750. Did it take 20 minutes? - No, Sir. 751. You did it in less than 20 minutes? - Yes, I should think so. 752. How long was it after the shock, after you felt the shock in the engine room, that you began to let down the boat? - I could not say. 753. To loosen the boat on the deck, you know? - I could not say. 754. We have heard something. You were a quarter of an hour drawing the fires and you were some time down in the stokehold after you got the order to stop. You were down there, as I understand, about half an hour after the order to stop came? - No, not so long as that. 755. Say 20 minutes, and then it took you 20 minutes to lower the boat? - It took us about that or less than that. 756. That would be about three quarters of an hour; and do you tell me the ship sank in half an hour after your boat got free? - From the time of the impact when the ship struck, someone in our boat had a watch; it was just about 2 hours and 10 minutes. 757. So I thought - a great deal longer than that. It was over 2 hours between the impact and the foundering? - About 2 hours and 10 minutes. Someone in the boat had a watch because it was between 20 and 25 to 12 when she struck, and it was just after 2 the gentleman said that she went down, or just about 2, somewhere handy 2 o'clock.

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Page 37 757a. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) When she sank were you near enough to see what happened; did you see how she sank? - Yes, she went down bows first; I could see the stern and then the stern went. 758. Did you hear any explosion? - I could hear a roaring just like thunder. 758a. (The Commissioner.) Yes, but I wish you would apply your mind to the question. You were asked, did you hear any explosions? - Yes. 759. Are you sure? - Yes. 759a. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) How many did you hear? - You could hear the roaring as the ship went down as the explosion occurred. 760. Did you see anyone in the water after the ship went down? - No; you could hear the cries after the ship sank. 761. Did you go back to the place where the cries came from or not? - No; no order was given. 762. You did not go back? - No. 762a. (The Commissioner.) I did not understand him to say he heard cries. (To the Witness.) Did you hear cries after the ship went down? - Yes, Sir. 763. Was that from the people in the sea? - Well, I could not say; I daresay it was, I suppose it was. 763a. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) You did not go back? - No. 764. Had you any room for more people in your boat or not? - No. Had we had any more room we should have gone back, but we could not go back owing as we were full up. 765. Do you know whether there was any compass in your boat? - No, Sir; there was not. 766. Did you look for one? - There was no compass, not in the boat I know. 767. Did you look for a compass? - Some of them did, I think. 767a. (The Commissioner.) Did you? - No, I never. When I got on the "Carpathia" I looked. 767b. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Was there any lantern or lamp on the boat? - No, Sir. 768. Did you look for that? - Yes. 769. Did you know where to look for it? Where did you look? - We looked everywhere; everyone tried and looked the best they could, and there was no light in the boat, none whatever. 770. Were there any provisions? - No, Sir. 771. Any water? - No, Sir. 772. Did you look for those? - Yes, Sir. 772a. (The Commissioner.) Can you tell me whose business it would be to put the water and the biscuits on the boat? - I could not say. 772b. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) You have said already that it was about 10 minutes to 10 when you were picked up by the "Carpathia." Is that right? - Yes, it was 10 minutes to 10 by the clock when I looked. 773. By what clock was it 10 minutes to 10? - By the clock in the saloon of the "Carpathia." 774. Were you rowing all through that night? - Yes. 775. How many other men were rowing? - There was a steward there. 776. And did Barrett, the stoker, row? - He was taking charge of the boat aft. 776a. (The Commissioner.) Where were you rowing to; were you simply keeping the boat steady? - Well, we kept pulling till we saw a light, and we would row a little way and then stop, lay on our oars until we saw a light. 776b. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Who else were rowing in the boat besides you and the steward? - I could not say who else. The steward and I were on the oar I was on. 777. Can you say how many oars were being used? - Six. 778. Were they all men who were rowing of some sort, or did some women row? - They were all men, so far as I know. 778a. (The Commissioner.) How many oars were there? - We only had three oars each side. 779. That is six oars? - Yes. 780. Were six men handling those six oars? - There was me and the steward on the oar I was on. 781. You and a steward on one oar? - Yes. 781a. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) You said there was a sailor on the boat as well, an ordinary seaman. Was he rowing? - I do not know; I could not say. 782. Do you know whether there was a man called Major, a fireman, in the boat? - Yes. 783. Was he rowing? - I believe he was, yes. 784. And a man called Foley, a steward? - I do not know the steward's name. 785. Had you ever had any boat drill while you were on the "Titanic"? - No. 786. Or seen anybody else having boat drill? - No. 787. Where did you join the ship? - Southampton. 788. You saw no boat drill and had none yourself? - No. 789. When you were picked up by the "Carpathia" were you among the first of the boats or the last of the boats to be picked up or in what order were you picked up? - There were several there before us. I could not say how many for certain. 790. Do you know how many were picked up altogether by the "Carpathia"; how many boats, not how many people? - Thirteen. 791. Were those all lifeboats or do you include some collapsible boats? - They were all lifeboats. 792. Had you a lifebelt on during all this night? - No. 793. How was that? - I was on watch and of course I came up and I never had time to go and get a lifebelt, the ship was too flooded. 794. (The Commissioner.) Had any of the passengers lifebelts on in this boat? - Yes. 795. How many of them? - I could not say how many for certain; all those round me had lifebelts on. 796. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Had you a lifebelt of your own if you had been able to go and fetch it? - Yes; I believe there is one in our quarters for every man. 797. (The Commissioner.) Did you ever look at it? - No. The Commissioner: Are you going to ask any questions, Sir Robert? Sir Robert Finlay: I may have some, but I think it would be convenient if I waited. The Commissioner: Do you want to come next, Mr. Scanlan? Mr. Scanlan: I am not particular about the order, my Lord; but I should like to ask a question or two. The Commissioner: Well, I want to get the thing in order if I can.

Examined by MR. SCANLAN.

798. How long have you been going to sea, Beauchamp? - Ten years. 799. Have you been employed as a stoker on many liners? - Yes. 800. Is it the usual practice on liners to give the stokers boat stations? - Yes. 801. Do you, as a rule, get your boat station before the ship leaves the port of departure? - On some ships you do, Sir, and on some ships you do not. 802. Is it the usual practice on liners to have boat drill? - Yes. 803. How often is the boat drill held? - Some companies every Saturday. 804. Once a week? - Once a week. Not round the coast as a rule. 805. I am speaking now about liners; is it not the case that on liners you have boat practice or boat drill before the ship leaves for a voyage? - Yes. 806. And then do you have a boat drill or practice in the course of the outward voyage? - Yes, once a week. 807. When you were taking on the passengers

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Page 38 on the boat deck, was there any officer of the ship bringing the passengers up to the boat deck? - There was one on the deck giving orders. 808. Do you know if any officer went down to the steerage quarters to let the steerage passengers know the lifeboats were ready? - No, Sir; I do not know. 809. Can you tell me how many of you were rowing? [No Answer.] The Commissioner: Will you ask him what he was rowing for. 810. (Mr. Scanlan.) Yes, my Lord (To the Witness.) I think you said, Beauchamp, that you saw a light? - Yes. 811. And that you were rowing for that light? - Yes. 812. (The Commissioner.) Now, what was that light? - We did not know what it was then. We thought it was a boat. 813. How long did you see that light? - We could not see at all till we got handy to it, and then we could see it was a ship. 814. What sort of a ship was it? - Well, it was the "Carpathia's" lights. 815. When did you first see the "Carpathia's" light? - I could not say what time it was. 816. How long before the "Carpathia" picked you up? - A long time. 817. What do you mean by a long time - three hours? - I could not say the time; I have no idea of it. 818. What I want to know is this: What were you doing rowing in the boat before you saw the light? Where were you rowing to? - We rowed and then had a blow, and then rowed on again when we saw the light, Sir. We rested on our oars. 819. Were not you resting on your oars most of the time? - I do not know what you would row for? - Well, we rowed to the light when we saw one. 820. When you saw one, I can understand, but before you saw the light you were resting on your oars, were you not? - Yes. 821. (Mr. Scanlan.) Did you first of all row away from the sinking ship? - Yes. The Commissioner: Yes, he has told us that. 822. (Mr. Scanlan.) And then you commenced rowing to the light you saw. Can you tell me how many men were rowing with you in that boat? - There were two on the oar I was on; there were only six oars. I do not know how many men there were on each oar. 823. Were there six oars being in use at the time? - Yes. 824. Actually in use? - Yes. 825. If you had a light in the boat at the time the boat was lowered from the ship's side, could you have seen better to disengage the boat from the falls? If you had had a lantern or any light in the boat, could you have seen better how to disengage the boat from the falls? - No. That was all right; everything went all right. The Commissioner: This light is quite a small thing, and it would not, in my opinion, be of any assistance for that purpose. Mr. Scanlan: What I thought was that it might light them through the lifeboat itself. The Commissioner: Oh, no, it would not do anything of the kind. 826. (Mr. Scanlan - To the Witness.) Is it usual on liners for each fireman to get a badge something like this, letting him know his boat station (exhibiting badge.)? - In some companies it is. 827. And some companies do not do it? - No. The Attorney-General: Let me look at it. (The Badge was handed to the learned Counsel.) 828. (The Commissioner.) What companies have you had it at? Have you ever had a badge like that? - Yes. 829. What company? - The Union Castle Company. 830. Have you had a badge from any other company? - No, Sir. 831. How many companies have you served under? - Under the Union Castle Company, the Royal Mail, the White Star. 832. Any others? - No, Sir. 833. No other liners? - No, Sir. 834. (Mr. Scanlan.) You have told his Lordship that a stoker was in charge of this lifeboat? - Yes. 835. Have you ever heard of a stoker being in charge of a lifeboat in the arrangements of any company you have travelled with before? - No. The Commissioner: I do not quite know what you are driving at, Mr. Scanlan. Nothing went wrong in this boat, and it seems to have been launched in a very reasonable time. Mr. Scanlan: What I am trying to get at, my Lord, is that in ordinary circumstances the proper thing is to have an experienced sailor in charge of a lifeboat, and not a stoker. The Commissioner: I daresay, but these were not ordinary circumstances; they had to do their best. 836. (Mr. Scanlan - To the Witness.) When a list of a lifeboat's crew is put up in a ship, in what part of the ship is it placed? - In the forward end where the crew's quarters are. 837. If this had been in its place would you have necessarily seen it in going to your quarters? - I never looked. The Commissioner: That is not a pertinent question. Ask him if he would necessarily have read it. 838. (Mr. Scanlan.) You only heard of the list having been put up after the wreck took place? - No; I heard that morning. The Commissioner: (To Mr. Holmes.) Whom do you represent? Mr. Holmes: The officers.

Examined by MR. HOLMES.

839. Have you any recollection of the name of the officer who was in charge of the deck at the time? - No, I do not know. 840. He did not sail in your boat? - No; there was no officer there. 841. Can you say how many boats he was in charge of on the deck? - No. 842. Was he superintending people getting into more than your boat? - I never got up there in time to see that, only this boat. 843. And what order was given to you when your boat was lowered? - When we lowered there were enough in it. 844. You are satisfied there were enough people? - Yes, it was crowded. The Commissioner: He has told us it was full; so full they could not get any more on board. 845. (Mr. Holmes.) What order was given when you got into the water? - There was no order given. We could not get to the lever owing to so many people. 846. Were you told to stand by or to row away? - There was no order given. 847. No order was given at all? - No. 848. (The Commissioner.) But you knew what to do; you knew you had to get away from the side of the ship? - Yes, we had to get away from the side. 849. (Mr. Holmes.) Were you alone the whole time in your boat till you got to the "Carpathia," or were you one of the four boats that were tied up together under the charge of Mr. Lowe? - No; our boat was alone.

Examined by MR. LEWIS.

850. How long have you been employed by the White Star Company? - I have come out of the Union Castle Company into the White Star Company.

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Page 39 851. Have you ever served on any other ship? - Yes. 852. Have you ever had a boat station given to you on any other ships of the White Star Company? - Yes. 853. Have you taken part in boat drill? - I have always had boat drill in New York. 854. On the Sunday? - Yes, on the Sunday morning. 855. (The Commissioner.) Is that the practice of the White Star Line? - I believe so. 856. Then is it the practice to have a boat drill before you start from Southampton? - Your names are called out; the fire stations and boat stations are given when you go on the ship. Your name is called out and you are generally told. 857. Told what? - Where to go. As you go along there; your name is called out; there are many of you there and you do not take much notice like. 858. You say that it was usual to have boat drill on Sunday at New York? - Yes. 859. Sunday comes after Saturday. I suppose in those circumstances you would not have a boat drill on Saturday. You would not have one on Saturday and one on Sunday? - No. 860. Therefore, on this line the lifeboat drill is on Sunday, is it? - Yes. 861. Is it usual to have a boat drill before the vessel leaves Southampton? - Yes. 862. Had you one on this occasion? - I cannot remember now. 863. I thought you told me a little time ago that you had not had one. Which am I to understand, either that you had not one or that you cannot remember? - I do not remember now, Sir; I cannot say. 864. (Mr. Lewis.) Were you on joining the ship told the number of your boat? Were you informed at any time of it? - I could not say. 865. Now, with regard to this list, have you ever noticed the boat list posted anywhere when leaving Southampton? - I have never looked - not the day of leaving Southampton. 866. Have you ever noticed it? - I never looked, not to see for certain the first day away. 867. You cannot say? - No. 868. Did you meet any other boat after you left the ship? - So many boats were all round; we could see the other boats round. 869. Do you remember any one in particular and anyone on the boat hailing it? - Someone hailed leading stoker Barrett on our boat, but I could not say who it was. 870. What boat was it? - I do not know the number. 871. Did you observe the boat? - Yes, we were close to it. They sung out, "Barrett, have you got any more room in that boat?" and he said, "No, full up." 872. Did you observe how high it was out of the water? - No, I did not take much notice of that.

Examined by SIR ROBERT FINLAY.

873. How long was it before the ship sailed that you joined at Southampton? - I joined her some time between 8 and 9 o'clock in the morning. 874. And when did she sail? - Twelve. 875. You do not remember any boat drill? - No. 876. Whether there had been one before you joined or not you do not know? - I do not remember.

Re-examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

877. I want you to help us if you can on this one point. You were in this boat for some hours after you left the "Titanic"? - Yes. 878. And you have told us, at any rate, that they were mostly women and children in the boat? - Yes. 879. I want you to try if you can to give us some idea of how many men there were in the boat? - I could not say the number of men. 880. You could not give us any idea? - No. 881. You have told us who were there, seamen and firemen like yourself? - What I know. 882. Yes, quite right. There were some men passengers there? - Yes, I think there were some. 883. But cannot you give us some idea whether there was a dozen, or six, or anything like that? - No, Sir, I do not know. I have no idea of the number at all. 884. (The Commissioner.) Were there more women than men in the boat? - Yes, there were more women and children in the boat. 885. (The Attorney-General.) Have you any idea how many there were in the boat altogether? - They were full up - someone said between 60 and 70 - I know it was crowded. I did not count the number. Sir Robert Finlay: Perhaps your Lordship will allow the Witness to point out on the plan where he was. The Commissioner: Yes. The Attorney-General: He did so. Sir Robert Finlay: It was not pointed out on the plan. 886. (The Commissioner - To the Witness.) Do you understand that plan? - Yes. 887. Could you point out to us what stokehold you were in? - Yes. 887a. (Sir Robert Finlay.) Take that pointer and go over and point it out. (The Witness indicated the position on the plan.) 888. (The Commissioner.) That is No. 10, is it? - Yes; No. 6 boiler, No. 10 stokehold. 889. (Sir Robert Finlay.) Was the stokehold fore or aft of the boiler? - Aft. 890. (The Commissioner.) I thought you said you were in the second stokehold from the bow? - Yes, Sir. 891. Now show me there which is the first stokehold from the bow. (The Witness indicated the position.) 892. I thought that was the stokehold you pointed to as the one in which you were? - No, that is the first one. This is the second one. The Attorney-General: And that is the one he pointed to, my Lord.

ROBERT HICHENS, Sworn.

Examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

893. Are you a quartermaster? - Yes. 894. And did you sail on the "Titanic"? - Yes. 895. Do you remember the Sunday, the day of the collision with an iceberg? - Yes. 896. During that day can you tell us whether it was particularly cold or not? - Yes, intense cold towards evening; in the day it was not very cold. 897. It got colder towards evening? - Yes. 898. I do not know whether you took the temperature of the water or whether you only speak of what it felt like about in the air? - I took the temperature of the water. 899. As well? - Yes. 900. (The Commissioner.) Was that part of your business? - Yes, my Lord. 901. (The Attorney-General.) When did you take it last before the collision? - A quarter to 10 - between a quarter and ten minutes to 10. 902. Did you take it at all before a quarter to 10 on that evening? - No. 903. Then you took it about a quarter to 10,

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Page 40 and what was it? - I entered the reading in the logbook, but I can hardly remember at present. 904. Did you notice whether it was particularly cold? - Yes, intense cold. 905. Do you mean that is what you found from taking the temperature of the water? - Yes. 906. Can you tell us when it first began to get colder on that day? - As far as I remember I went on watch at eight o'clock; it was bitter cold then. 907. Colder than when you had been on watch before? - Yes. 908. When did you go off watch before? - At six o'clock, the first dog-watch. 909. You were in the first dog-watch, and you went off at six? - Yes. 910. And then you came on after the second dog-watch? - Yes. 911. When you came on watch at eight o'clock did you act as stand-by on the bridge? - Yes. 912. Who was at the wheel? - Quartermaster Oliver. 913. You remained there on the bridge? - When I was not running a message. 914. Did you get any instructions from the second officer to give to the carpenter? - Yes. 915. About when in point of time? - Just immediately after I got on the bridge; I could not tell you to a few minutes. 916. It would be a little after eight o'clock? - Yes. 917. What were the instructions you were to give to the carpenter? - To take his compliments down and tell him to look after his fresh water; it was going to freeze; the thermometer was very low. 918. He was to look after the fresh water; it was going to freeze; the thermometer was very low? - Yes. 919. Is that the fresh water in the tanks? - Yes. 920. Is that the carpenter's business? - Yes, it is the carpenter's duty. 921. When you had done that did you come back to the bridge? - Yes. 922. Did you see the carpenter? - Yes. 923. Did you tell him? - I came back and reported to Mr. Lightoller, the second officer in charge of the bridge. 924. (The Commissioner.) And he was the man who sent you to the carpenter? - Yes. 925. (The Attorney-General.) Soon after you returned to the bridge, did you hear a conversation between the second officer and another officer about the look-out? - Yes. 926. The second officer and what officer was it? - The sixth officer, Mr. Moody. 927. Tell us what you heard? - I heard Mr. Lightoller speak to Mr. Moody and tell him to speak through the telephone to the crow's-nest to keep a sharp look-out for small ice and growlers until daylight and pass the word along to the look-out man. The Commissioner: Send a message to the crow's-nest to do what - to keep a sharp look-out for ice? 928. (The Attorney-General.) Small ice and growlers, I think he said (To the Witness.) That is right, is it not? - Yes. 929. Until daylight and pass the word along to the look-out man? - Yes. 930. That would be sending the message to the man in the crow's-nest and telling him to pass it along to the man who would relieve him? - Yes. 931. Who was in charge of the bridge at that time? - The Second Officer, Mr. Lightoller. 932. Who were the other officers with him at this time? - The Sixth Officer, Mr. Moody, and Mr. Boxhall, the Fourth Officer. 933. Mr. Lightoller, the Second Officer, Mr. Boxhall, the Fourth Officer, and Mr. Moody, the Sixth Officer? - Yes. 934. Were they all on the bridge at this time? - Yes. 935. Did you relieve Quartermaster Oliver? - I did. 936. At what time? - Ten o'clock. 937. What was the course given to you? - N. 71º W. 938. Do you know what was the course which was given to Quartermaster Oliver? - That was the same course. 939. Was there a course-board in the wheelhouse? - Yes. 940. Was there anything on the course-board to indicate the course you were to steer? - Yes, N. 71º. 941. That was on the course-board? - That was on the course-board, the steering compass. 942. Was she a good steering ship? - Fairly well, yes. 943. Up to the time of the collision did she vary from her course at all? - Not that I am aware of, not more than a degree on either side. 944. Were there two clocks in the wheelhouse? - Yes. 945. Do you remember the vessel striking? - Yes. 946. Did you notice the time when she struck? - Yes. 947. What was it? - Twenty minutes to twelve. 948. Had you had any instructions before she struck? Had you been told to do anything with your helm before she struck? - Just as she struck I had the order "Hard-a-starboard" when she struck. 949. Just as she struck, is that what you said? - Not immediately as she struck; the ship was swinging. We had the order, "Hard-a-starboard," and she just swung about two points when she struck. 950. You got the order, "Hard-a-starboard"? - Yes. 951. Had you time to get the helm hard a starboard before she struck? - No, she was crashing then. 952. Did you begin to get the helm over? - Yes, the helm was barely over when she struck. The ship had swung about two points. 953. She had swung two points? - Yes. 954. (The Commissioner.) Do let me understand; had she swung two points before the crash came? - Yes, my Lord. 955. (The Attorney-General.) I am not quite sure that I understand what you had done to the helm before this. You had got an order, "Hard-a-starboard"? -"Hard-a-starboard," yes. 956. You proceeded at once to put the wheel hard-a-starboard? - Immediately, yes. 957. Before the vessel struck had you had time to get the wheel right over? - The wheel was over then, hard over. 958. (The Commissioner.) Before she struck? - Oh yes, hard over before she struck. The Attorney-General: I rather understood him to say the opposite before. I do not think he understood. The Commissioner: Let me see if I understand it. Someone gave an order, "Hard-a-starboard"? The Attorney-General: Yes. The Commissioner: This was before she struck? The Attorney-General: Yes. The Commissioner: He put the wheel hard over? The Attorney-General: Yes; and got it hard over. The Commissioner: And got it hard over. The ship moved two points? The Attorney-General: That is right. The Commissioner: She did not move any more, because, as I understand, the crash came? 959. (The Attorney-General.) Exactly; that is the story. (To the Witness.) Who gave the order "hard a starboard"? - Mr. Murdoch, the First Officer. 960. When had he come on the bridge? - He relieved Mr. Lightoller on the bridge at ten o'clock. 961. Did the Fourth and Sixth Officers, Mr. Boxhall and Mr. Moody, remain? - Mr. Moody was standing behind me when the order was given. 962. And was Mr. Boxhall on the bridge? - From what I am given to understand, Mr. Boxhall was approaching the bridge. 963. Was Captain Smith on the bridge? - No, Sir. 964. Do you know where he was? - Yes, Sir; in his room. 965. So far as you know was there any change in the speed at which the vessel was travelling before she struck? - I took the log which was part of my duty at half a minute to ten, as near as I can tell, and the vessel was going 45 knots by the Cherub log every two hours.

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Page 41 966. Forty-five knots? - Forty-five was registering on the log. 967. (The Commissioner.) Was the speed altered before the collision? - Well, the crash came immediately. 968. I know it did. Had the speed been altered before? - No, I could not say, my Lord, because I could not see the officer on the bridge. I am in the wheelhouse. I cannot see anything only my compass. 969. (The Attorney-General.) I think we can get at it in this way. What was the first notice to you that there was something ahead? - Three gongs from the crow's-nest, Sir. 970. That you would hear in the wheelhouse, would you? - Certainly. 971. And you knew what that meant? - Certainly, Sir. 972. That meant something ahead? - Yes. 973. How long was that before the order came "Hard-a-starboard"? - Well, as near as I can tell you, about half a minute. 974. In order that we may understand, if there was a telephone message from the crow's-nest to the bridge, would you hear it? Would you know anything about it? - Certainly so, Sir. 975. Would you indicate on the model where you were, where the wheelhouse is? - Yes. (The Witness indicated the position on the model.) 975a. (The Commissioner.) And the crow's-nest is just on the mast in front, is it not? - Just above the eyes of the fore-rigging. 976. (The Attorney-General.) Put your finger on it? - Yes. (The Witness did so.) 977. I think that is the indication of it; is it not? - Yes. 978. Then there is the telephone. What was the telephone message? Did you hear any? - I did not hear the message, but I heard the reply. 979. What was the reply? - "Thank you." 980. Who gave it? - Mr. Moody. 981. Then it means this, that Mr. Moody, the Sixth Officer, got a telephone message after the three bells had been struck? - Immediately after. 982. You did not hear what was said to Mr. Moody, but you heard him acknowledge the message, and say "Thank you"? - Yes. I heard Mr. Moody repeat, "Iceberg right ahead." 983. To whom did he repeat that? - To Mr. Murdoch, the First Officer. 984. "Iceberg right ahead"; is that what he said? - Yes. 985. Repeating what he had heard from the telephone message? - Yes. 986. And then what happened? - I heard Mr. Murdoch rush to the telegraph and give the order, "Hard-a-starboard." 987. When you say he rushed to the telegraph, is that the telegraph to the engine room you are speaking of? - Yes. 988. The order, "Hard a starboard," was to you? - Yes. The Commissioner: What order did he give to the engine room? 989. (The Attorney-General.) I do not think he knows. (To the Witness.) Do you know what order it was that was telegraphed down to the engine room? - No. 990. I think your Lordship will hear that it was, "Stop: full speed astern." Now just for a minute give me your attention on the point of speed. You have told us according to the log that the speed was 45 knots in two hours? - Yes. 991. Up to the time of hearing the three bells struck, was there any change of the speed at which the vessel was proceeding? - No, none whatever. 992. And the order, if any, that was given with regard to the speed would be the order by telegraph to the engine room, which you have told us you do not know? - I do not quite understand you. 993. You have told us what happened; first of all, the signal of the three bells, then the telephone message, then it was repeated to the First Officer, "Iceberg right ahead"; then the First Officer went to the telegraph to give an order to the engine room and gave you the order, "Hard-a-starboard"? - Yes. 994. At any rate up to his going to the telegraph as I follow you, there was no change of speed? - No, Sir. 995. What that order was you do not know? - No, Sir. 996. Then "Hard a starboard," and you immediately put up your helm? - Hard a starboard. 997. Right over? - Yes. 998. What is it, 35 degrees? - Forty degrees. 999. Then you got the helm right over? - Right over, Sir. 1000. Then she comes round two points and then strikes. Is that right? - The vessel veered off two points; she went to the southward of west. 1001. And then struck? - Yes. 1002. Were there blinds in the wheelhouse? - Yes. 1003. They were all closed? - Always closed just after sunset. 1004. And no lights were in the wheelhouse at all except the compass light? - And the small light. 1005. And the small light on the course board? - Yes. The Commissioner: Have you a green board here with some small wooden models? The Attorney-General: No. The Commissioner: You know what I want? The Attorney-General: Yes. The Commissioner: The report from the crow's-nest was "Iceberg ahead." 1006. (The Attorney-General.) "Iceberg right ahead." (To the Witness.) The helm was put hard-a-starboard? - Yes. 1007. And the ship moved two points? - Yes. 1008. Assuming the iceberg was right ahead, I should like to see what difference the two points would make, and what part of the ship would then be presented to the iceberg? - Yes. The Attorney-General: We can do it, of course. I quite appreciate what your Lordship means. The Commissioner: Mr. Laing could do it for me in a minute. 1009. (The Attorney-General.) It is a mere question of taking the indication of course. (To the Witness.) Did any one of the officers see you carry out the order? - Yes. 1010. Who? - Mr. Moody, and also the Quartermaster on my left. He was told to take the time of the collision. 1011. Let us get the fact of what happened. Was Mr. Moody there when you put the helm hard-a-starboard? - That was his place, to see the duty carried out. 1012. Was it his duty to report it? - Yes; he reported the helm hard-a-starboard. 1013. To whom? - To Mr. Murdoch, the First Officer. 1014. Then you had put the helm hard-a-starboard and Mr. Moody had reported it hard-a-starboard to Mr. Murdoch? - Yes. The Attorney-General: That is the only fact your Lordship had not got in the story. The Commissioner: I do not see the significance of it. 1015. (The Attorney-General.) It is only because you cannot fix the time except by seeing exactly what happened. That is the point of it. The estimate of time is of very little value, but if you can get what happened you can form an estimate. So that he had reported, and then it was after that that she strikes, is that right? - She struck almost at the same time. 1016. Almost as he reported it? - Yes. 1017. How long did you remain at the wheel? - Until 23 minutes past 12. 1018. And who relieved you? - Quartermaster Perkis. 1019. After she struck, did you notice at all what happened? - No. 1020. Did you notice whether the ship had stopped? - Oh, yes, the ship had stopped. 1021. Can you tell us how long it was after the collision that you noticed that the ship had stopped? - Immediately. 1022. While you were remaining at the wheel until 2.23 [12:23, see 1017], could you see what was going on on board the vessel? - I could not see anything. Page 42 1023. You remained at your post? - Yes. 1024. I suppose you heard something of what was going on? - I heard a few words of command, that was all. 1025. Tell us what you heard in the way of command? - Just about a minute, I suppose, after the collision, the Captain rushed out of his room and asked Mr. Murdoch what was that, and he said, "An iceberg, Sir," and he said, "Close the watertight door." The Commissioner: Wait a minute. A minute after the collision, Captain Smith - 1026. (The Attorney-General.) Came out of his room on to the bridge do you mean? - Yes, Sir; he passed through the wheelhouse on to the bridge. 1027. He rushed out of his room through the wheelhouse on to the bridge? - Yes. 1028. And asked Murdoch, "What is that?" - Yes. 1029. And Murdoch said, "An iceberg." Is that right? - Yes. 1030. Mr. Murdoch said "An iceberg," and then? - The Captain immediately gave him orders to close the watertight doors. He said, "They are already closed." He immediately then sent for the carpenter to sound the ship. The Commissioner: The Captain gave orders to close the watertight doors? 1031. (The Attorney-General.) Yes. Mr. Murdoch said, "They are already closed." Do you know where they were closed from? - Yes, the fore-part of the bridge. 1032. Could you see them being closed? - I could not see anything but my compass. 1033. Where you were you would not be able to see it? - No. 1034. (The Commissioner.) Do you know what these doors are? - Yes, my Lord. 1035. Would that order from the bridge refer to all the watertight doors, or only to those that close automatically? - Only those that close automatically, my Lord. The Attorney-General: That is what I understood, my Lord. I think all the lower ones closed. I think that is how it stands; but, of course, your Lordship will hear it. The Commissioner: Some of them are worked by hand. Sir Robert Finlay: There are 12 lower doors which close when the button is pressed. 1036. (The Attorney-General.) Let us follow it. Mr. Murdoch said, "They are already closed"? - Yes. 1037. And then what happened? - He then gave orders to send for the ship's carpenter to sound the ship. 1038. That is what Captain Smith did? - Yes. 1039. Do you know whether the ship's carpenter was sent for? - I do not know; I only heard the order given. 1040. Did you hear any other order? - No other order after that. That was the last order I heard with the exception of the boats. 1041. What was that you heard about the boats? - I heard the Captain say "Get all the boats out and serve out the belts." That was after 12. 1042. I am rather anxious to get the time if I can? - I could not barely tell you the time. 1043. That is enough - as near as you can; it was after 12? - Yes, the Captain then looked at the commutator and he found that the ship was carrying a list to starboard. 1044. And were those all the orders you heard until you were relieved from the wheel? - Yes. 1045. When the vessel struck, did you feel any shock? - Yes. I felt the ship tremble, and I felt rather a grinding nature along the ship's bottom. 1046. While you were in the wheelhouse you had the compass in front of you? - Yes. 1047. Could you see ahead at all through the wheelhouse? - I could not see anything. 1048. You would not be able to see the iceberg even if it had been quite clear. Is that what you mean? - No, I could not see it, on no account whatever could I see it. 1049. You said that the Captain rushed out of his room through the wheelhouse to the bridge? - Yes. 1050. Where was his room? I do not know if you can point it out on the model. Was it on the starboard or port side? - The starboard side. 1051. That model is the starboard side. Where was the Captain's room? - About here. (Pointing on the plan.) 1052. Was it quite close to the wheelhouse? - Yes, quite close to the wheelhouse. 1053. We have a plan which will show it. I do not know whether your Lordship has the plan, but we need not stop to consider it very carefully now. It is quite close. (To the Witness.) Then, when you were relieved by Quartermaster Perkis, what did you do? Did you get an order first of all? - Yes, orders to carry on, helping to get a collapsible boat uncovered - getting the cover off a collapsible boat. 1054. Carry on and get the cover off the collapsible boat? - On the port side. 1055. Who gave you that order? - I think it was the Chief Officer, Mr. Wilde, or Mr. Lightoller, I am not sure which. 1056. Had you any station on the boats? - Yes. 1057. What boat were you stationed to? - I think it was one of the emergency boats. 1058. Do not you know which? - No; we never had any boat drill while we were there. 1059. There are only two emergency boats, one on the starboard and one on the port side? - Yes. 1060. But you were stationed to an emergency boat. You do not know whether it was port or starboard. Is that it? - There were two Quartermasters with their names specially picked out for those two boats, but I was not told off to anyone of them. I never went to either one of them for any drill. 1061. That is not quite what I want to know whether you went to drill. I will ask you about that directly. What I want to know is whether you had any station to which you were to go? - Not that I am aware of, no. The Commissioner: I am getting a little in confusion. I have written down, "I was stationed to one of the emergency boats." The Attorney-General: He did say so, my Lord. 1062. (The Commissioner.) Am I to understand you were not stationed to any boat? - I had no proper station. I had no station to go to on paper that I was notified where to go on a station. 1063. What did you mean by saying just now, "I was stationed to one of the emergency boats"? - One of the Quartermasters was at the wheel at that particular time and it would be my duty to go there and fill his vacancy during his absence at the wheel. 1064. (The Attorney-General.) It would be the duty of the two Quartermasters to go to the two emergency boats. Is that right? - Yes. 1065. What he means is that if the Quartermaster was on duty, and somebody had to go to the emergency boat it would be his duty to act as one of those Quartermasters. Is that right? - Yes. 1066. But to which of the two boats, whether it was port or starboard there were no orders? - No orders. 1067. Did you see the lists of the stations for the boats on board? - No. 1068. If I understand you correctly, your name would not be on the list, would it? - Not that I am aware of. 1069. You would not have any cause to look at the list for yourself? - I have never seen any list put up anywhere. The usual thing is to have the fire and boat stations marked on a sheet of paper and put up for everyone to see, but I did not see it. 1070. (The Commissioner.) I should like to have this clear. Would your name be on such list? - Certainly, my Lord, in boat stations. 1070a. I rather understood you to suggest that it would not. 1071. (The Attorney-General.) I did. I understood from him that it would not, because it would depend whether he was on duty or not. (To the Witness.) I understood you to say that you would not expect to find your name on the list of stations. Is that right? - No, Sir. I did not mean that at all. 1072. Tell us what you mean about it. - In every ship that I have been in we always have had every Quartermaster, or whatever he may be, seaman, fireman, steward, always have their boat stations, Page 43 and they would have a proper muster every Saturday or whenever it may be - it lies at the Captain's discretion whenever he liked to give us a drill, and everybody is mustered in front of their boats, but I never saw it like that on the "Titanic." 1073. That means you never saw a muster? - No. 1074. Where did you join the "Titanic"? - Southampton. 1075. How long before the vessel sailed? - Four days. 1076. Do you remember the day of the week that you went on board of her? - I think the first day when we dressed ship. 1077. What day was that, do you remember? - I think it was Good Friday, holiday time. 1078. Then from that time until the collision occurred had you any boat drill at all? - I did not see any; they might have had when it was my duty off. We Quartermasters were keeping gangways in harbour. 1079. You, personally, had not had any; is that right? - That is quite right. 1080. Whether the others had or not you do not know? - That is right. 1081. They might have had without your knowing it? - That is right. 1082. Now will you come back to the order that you got to remove the cover of one of the boats? - Yes. 1083. It was the cover of one of the collapsible boats on the port side? - Yes. 1084. Did you do that? - I did, Sir. 1085. Did you finish that job? - Yes. 1086. Did you clear her, taking away all the coverings? - I was ordered away to one of the next lifeboats before I had time to ship the rudder, and so on. 1087. You had the cover off? - I had the cover off and got the boat's grips off. 1088. And then you were ordered to another boat? - Yes. 1089. Who ordered you to another boat? - Mr. Lightoller. 1090. And to what boat? - No. 6 boat. 1091. Is that a lifeboat on the port side? - Yes. 1092. It would be the third on the port side from forward, would it not? - I do not know whether it was the second or third boat. It was one of the two. 1093. We have been told it was the third. When you got to No. 6 lifeboat was that all ready? - Yes. She was swung out then. 1094. Did you take passengers on board? - Yes. 1095. When you got to her were there any passengers on board? - No. 1096. She had only been swung out ready? - That is all. 1097. And then what happened - who was giving orders then? - Mr. Lightoller was in charge of the port side. 1098. Did you hear any order given? - Yes, I heard the captain say, "Women and children first," and the officer repeated the words from the captain. 1099. "Women and children first"? - Yes. 1100. (The Commissioner.) Where was the captain? - Just standing by the collapsible boat by the officers' quarters between the officers' quarters and the collapsible boat. 1101. Will you just show us where that is on the model? - Yes, here, in the centre; the officers' quarters were here, and the collapsible boat under the emergency boat (pointing on the model.) 1102. Are you speaking of the port side? - Yes. 1103. You have indicated to us the corresponding point on the model on the starboard side? - Yes. 1104. Was No. 6 boat that you went to a boat which was on the deck where the first-class cabins were? - Yes. 1105. The first-class promenade? - Yes. 1106. How many people did you take on board? - Forty-two all told. 1107. First of all, will you tell me, how many crew there were besides yourself? - One seaman, Sir. 1108. And how many passengers? - Forty passengers. 1109. How many men passengers? - One man and one boy. 1110. And the rest were ladies? - Yes. 1111. Could you tell at all whether they were first, second, or third-class passengers? - Nearly all first and second-class, I think, Sir. 1112. Do you know the name of the one man passenger? - Yes, Sir. 1113. What is it? - Major Pewan. [Peuchan.] 1114. P-e-w-a-n - is that it? - Yes, I think it was spelt something like that. 1115. Very well, that is near enough. Was there room for any more in that lifeboat? - The boat seemed pretty full, Sir, but from what I am given to understand she could carry five or six more. She seemed pretty well full up with the ladies with their lifebelts on, scattered about the boat. 1116. Were all the lifeboats the same size? - I am not quite certain, Sir; I do not think they were. Some were smaller than others. The Commissioner: How is that? The Attorney-General: According to what we make out, they are all the same size except, of course, the two emergency boats. I asked him about the lifeboats. We make out that they are all the same as I understand it. The fourteen boats would all be the same. The Commissioner: All of them are marked on the plan as 30 feet? The Attorney-General: Yes, that is so. The Commissioner: They would all have the same beam? Sir Robert Finlay: I am told they are all the same size except the emergency boat. 1117. (The Attorney-General.) That is just what I stated. (To the Witness.) The lifeboats, I suppose, were bigger than the two emergency boats? - Oh, yes, Sir. The Commissioner: Beauchamp said that on board his boat there were 60 or 70 persons. The Attorney-General: He did. The Commissioner: And I understand this Witness says there were 42 in his boat. The Attorney-General: Yes, we will get that from some other Witness. We can only get as far as that from this one. According to Scarrott's evidence there were about 60 in his boat all told. In this one we have only got 42. The Commissioner: Then I took a wrong note of it. 1117a. (The Attorney-General.) I think your Lordship will find that that is right - just about 60. (To the Witness.) According to what we have heard these lifeboats were all about the same size. If you only had 42 on board all told, there was room for something like 20 more. Did you notice that at all? - Well, I do not think she would have held 20 more, Sir. That was nothing to do with me. That was the officer's orders. 1118. Who gave orders for her to be pushed off? - The Second Officer, Mr. Lightoller, ordered the boat to be lowered away. 1119. Where was he when he gave that order? - Right abreast of the boat, Sir. 1120. On deck? - Yes, on the promenade deck. 1121. Then she was lowered away? - Yes. 1122. You were in her? - Yes, Sir. 1123. Who was in charge of the boat? - I was. 1124. Were there any other passengers on the deck so far as you could see when you got the order to lower away - when the order was given to lower away? - Yes, there were some passengers there. 1125. Women? - I think there were one or two women, Sir, besides gentlemen as well. They felt half inclined - they did not care about getting into the boat. 1126. Who felt half inclined? - Why, the passengers, Sir. 1127. They did not like getting into the boat? - They did not like to get into the small boat - no. 1128. Who is "they" that you are speaking of? - Why, the passengers that were standing there on the deck that I heard talking. 1129. Do you know how you came to have the one man passenger and a boy in the boat? - I do not know how the man passenger got in the boat at all, Sir - nor the boy. 1130. You do not know how they got in? - No, Sir. Page 44 1131. You did not see them get in? - No, Sir. 1132. Did you see they were in when the boat was lowered? - Just after we got away from the ship I did. 1133. But not till then? - No. 1134. As I understand it, when you saw the boat lowered you thought there were only ladies in the boat and yourself and another seaman. Is that right? - Yes, Sir. 1135. Who was the other seaman? - Seaman Fleet. 1136. That is one of the look-out men that we have heard about? - Yes. 1137. When did you count the number of ladies on board? - I counted them as near as I could when we got down to the "Carpathia," just before we got aboard the "Carpathia." 1138. Not till then? - No. 1139. (The Commissioner.) That was hours afterwards? - Yes, Sir. 1140. (The Attorney-General.) You may as well tell us - when did you get to the "Carpathia"? - As near as I can tell you about 7 o'clock. We were the last boat to get alongside. [The Attorney-General] That does not tell me anything, but I will take the statement for the moment. The Commissioner: It does not fit in with the other evidence. 1141. (The Attorney-General.) It depends on clocks, and so on. There is some difficulty in arriving at the time. (To the Witness.) When the order was given to lower away, did you hear any question asked as to whether there were any others ready to go on the boat? Did you hear any such question as that? - I do not remember, Sir. 1142. (The Commissioner.) I think you will remember if you think about it? - No, I do not remember, my Lord. 1143. Do you know what you were asked? - Yes, my Lord. 1144. What were you asked? - If there was any more passengers asked to get on board before the boat was lowered away. 1145. Do you mean to tell me that you do not remember whether the people waiting on deck were asked to get into your boat. You know there was room in it; there was room in your boat. Was no one asked of those people who were standing about on deck if they were going into the boat? - Oh, yes, my Lord. The officer asked for them to get into the boat then - women and children first. 1146. And then what did they say - those that remained behind? - They were talking between themselves; they would rather stay aboard of the ship. 1147. (The Attorney-General.) Now let us go back for a moment. You told us he asked to go on board - the women and children first. That was the first order to passengers to get into the boat? - Yes. 1148. Then, as I understand you, a number did get into the boat? - Yes. 1149. Then your boat was not full? - The Second Officer would not allow any more in my boat. 1150. Did you hear the Second Officer give any order? - I heard the Second Officer say; "Lower the boat away," yes, Sir. 1151. You said just now that he would not allow any more people to get into your boat. Did you see anybody wanting to get into your boat who was stopped? - No, Sir. 1152. But there were people there then, I suppose? - Plenty of men there. 1153. Did he stop them? - He did not. 1154. I do not understand what you mean by saying he would not allow any more to get into the boat. How do you know that? - Because the boat was lowered away. There was enough people in the boat. 1155. Did he say that? - I think so, as much as I can remember. 1156. What do you remember he said? - I think he said, "Lower away." 1157. Did you hear anything said at all about, "There is enough people in the boat"? - I do not hardly remember, Sir. 1158. What! You can hardly remember? You said just now you thought "there was enough people in the boat" - I do not care about the particular words. Did you hear anything like that said? - I do not remember, Sir - only "Lower away the boat." That is all I remember. 1159. Then, when the boat was lowered, did you have any order as to what you were to do? - Yes, Sir. 1160. Who gave it to you? - Mr. Lightoller, the Second Officer. 1161. What was the order? - To pull for that light - to steer for that light. 1162. What light? - There was a light about two points on the port bow, about five miles away, I should judge. 1163. You are speaking now of the time that the order was given to lower the boat? - I am speaking now of the time when the boat was going to be lowered away. 1164. Then you got the order from Mr. Lightoller, the Second Officer, to steer for a vessel which was two points on the port bow, or, rather, I said for a vessel, you said for a light; it is the same thing? - Yes. 1165. To steer for a light which was on the port bow? - That is right, Sir. The Commissioner: A light two points off. 1166. (The Attorney-General.) Yes, on the port bow, and he also said about five miles distance. That is right, is it not? - Yes, Sir. 1167. When you had first seen that light two points on the port bow? - While we were in the boat, Sir, taking the passengers on board. That was the order then, to steer for that light. 1168. (The Commissioner.) Do listen to the question. When had you first seen that light? - During the time that I was standing in the lifeboat taking the passengers into the lifeboat, my Lord. 1169. (The Attorney-General.) When you looked and saw this light, could you tell what it was at all? - No. We surmised it to be a steamboat. 1170. As I understand, you saw that light for the first time when you were standing in the boat before the order was given to lower away? - Yes, Sir. 1171. Then, when you got down to the water you started rowing away, I suppose, did you? - Yes, Sir. 1172. Who rowed? - When we got half way down the boat she was hanging at an angle, and I stopped them from above from lowering by shouting to the Second Officer to steady forward and lower away a bit astern, and I told him I had only one seaman in the boat. 1173. And then - tell us what happened. - This major here was in the boat. When I looked around I saw the major. 1174. Was that while the boat was being lowered? - When the boat was down in the water, just before we let go of the falls. 1175. How came you to see him? - He was standing up there, standing up in the bows of her. 1176. The bows of the boat? - Yes. 1177. Was there any difficulty in freeing her from the falls? - No, Sir. 1178. Then, when you got free of the falls you started rowing? - Yes, Sir. 1179. What I was asking you was who rowed - how many of you rowed? - The sailor and the major and two or three of the ladies put out oars. 1180. What did you do? - Steered for the light, Sir. 1181. How far did you go? - About a mile, I suppose. 1182. A mile from the ship in the direction of the light, two points on the port bow. Is that right? - Yes, Sir. 1183. Could you tell at all whether the light was moving or whether it was still? - The light was moving, gradually disappearing. We did not seem to get no nearer to it. 1184. As I understand you, it seemed to get further away from you? - Yes, Sir. Page 45 1185. Could you tell us how many boats had got away before you? - I think there were two on the port side, but how many on the starboard side I could not tell you. 1186. On the port side you think there were two before you? - Yes, Sir. 1187. Did any of the other boats travel in the same direction that you took? - Yes, Sir, four or five of us there altogether. 1188. When you say "altogether" you mean close to each other - you do not mean lashed together? - No, close together, going away to this light. 1189. When you stopped rowing were there any of these boats near you? - One right alongside of us, Sir. 1190. Do you know who was in charge of that? - Yes, the Master-at-Arms, Mr. Bailey. 1191. What sort of a night was it? - It seemed a clear night, a starlight night. 1192. And calm, as we have been told - very calm? - It was calm, Sir, till about three o'clock in the morning, when it came on choppy, a little breeze sprung up. 1193. Nothing to speak of, was it? - No, Sir; but quite enough for a small boat. 1194. When you were rowing away did you see the "Titanic" still? - Yes, I saw the lights of the "Titanic." 1195. You saw the lights of the "Titanic"; did you see any signals sent up by her? - Yes, and before I left, Sir. 1196. What? - Rockets. 1197. Before you left and after you left? - Yes, Sir. 1198. Can you tell us what colour rockets? - I did not take no particular notice of the colour, Sir. Some were green, some were red, and some were blue - all kinds of colours - and some white, Sir. I think, if I remember rightly, they were blue. The Commissioner: Have these colours a different significance? The Attorney-General: My Lord, that is what I am trying to ascertain. There is a special reason for wanting to know it. Has your Lordship got the "Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea"? Is that what you are looking at? The Commissioner: Yes, the last page. The Attorney-General: I am much obliged. That is what I was looking at myself. The Commissioner: "At night." 1199. (The Attorney-General.) Yes. That is Article 31, dealing with distress signals: "When a vessel is in distress and requires assistance from other vessels or from the shore, the following shall be the signals to be used or displayed by her, either together or separately"; and then, as your Lordship pointed out, "At night" No. 3 is "Rockets or shells, throwing stars of any colour or description, fired one at a time, at short intervals." That is it. (To the Witness.) Will you tell me how long it was before you left the vessel that you saw rockets sent up? - I could not give you no estimate of time, because by the time I come from the wheel I was there working about the boat. 1200. It would be after you came from the wheel, because you could not see till then? - Yes, Sir. I could not give you no time for that. 1201. Had it been going on any time before you left the vessel? - No, not very long, Sir, I should not think it would be. It could not have been, in fact, because I was working there not more than a quarter of an hour or 20 minutes, I suppose, before I was sent away in the boat. 1202. When you came first of all to remove the cover of the collapsible boat, did you see any then? - No, not at that time, I didn't. 1203. It was only when you went to No. 6 lifeboat; is that right? - Yes. 1204. You saw it then? - Yes. 1205. Do you remember how many boats got on board the "Carpathia"? - No, Sir, I do not. The Commissioner: Are you leaving this point now? 1206. (The Attorney-General.) No; I was trying to get his mind to a particular question I wanted to put to him. (To the Witness.) You say you saw the rockets being fired as you were rowing? - Yes. 1207. Did that continue during all the time? - It continued for about half an hour, I suppose, after we left the ship, as near as I can tell you. I never had no time in the boat; I am only guessing the time. 1208. That is your best estimate? - Yes, Sir. 1209. Did you see the "Titanic" go down? - No, Sir. 1210. Did you see her lights? - The last time I looked I saw her lights. 1211. Was your back to her then? - Yes. I was steering away from her then. 1212. You were steering? - Yes. 1213. The last time you looked you saw the lights, and then you did not see them any more? - No, Sir. 1214. When you had got about a mile's distance away, did you see the "Titanic" then? - Yes, Sir; I saw the lights. 1215. Were you facing her then? - No, Sir, going away from the ship all the time. 1216. I thought you stopped when you got about a mile's distance? - It was about that time when we did not see the lights - when me and Bailey made our boats fast side by side. 1217. And you did not see the lights of the "Titanic" any more, is that what you mean? - Yes, Sir. I did not see the lights of the "Titanic" again after that. 1218. Let me see if I understand the story. You rowed away from the "Titanic," and when you looked round you saw the lights there. As you were being rowed away from the "Titanic" you saw her lights? - Yes. 1219. When you got about a mile's distance you stopped; and then when you looked you did not see the lights any more; is that right? - That is quite right, Sir. 1220. That is all you can tell us about what happened? - Yes. 1221. Is that right? - That is all, Sir. 1222. Did you hear any explosion? - Well, no, Sir. 1223. What does that mean, "Well no"? - Well, not that I could say that I heard any explosion. 1224. But you heard something - is that it? What is in your mind about it? - I do not think I heard any explosion. The Attorney-General: Do you mean you have heard other people talking of it; is that what you mean? The Commissioner: That is what he means. 1225. (The Attorney-General.) Is that what you mean? - No, I do not. 1226. (The Commissioner.) Do you mean to say you have not heard it said that there were explosions before the boat went down? - Yes, my Lord. I have heard those questions repeated and talked about, but I never heard them myself. 1227. (The Attorney-General.) Now, we understand what you mean. Did you look in your boat for a light? - I had a light served out to me before I left the ship. 1228. Who served it? - A lamp-trimmer, Sir. 1229. Do you remember his name? - No, I do not know his name - a stranger. 1230. And you took it on board with you? - Yes, Sir. 1231. Did you hear an order given to the lamp-trimmer to bring a light, or did he give you the light without your hearing an order? - I never heard any orders. I see him coming along with the lights, and he had orders to give me one of them. 1232. Orders from whom? - From Mr. Lightoller, the officer. 1233. Did he have any other lanterns with him? - Yes, Sir, several. 1234. Of the same kind that you had? - Yes, Sir. 1235. And he served you out one as he passed? - Yes, Sir. 1236. And then went along as far as you could see to the other boats: Is that right? - Yes, Sir. 1237. How many oars had you on board? - I do not know; there was not much time for counting the oars; I did not think much about the oars. 1238. But you had time afterwards? - I did not count them, Sir; I do not know. 1239. How many did you see used? - Four. Page 46 1240. Four altogether? - But then there was more in the boat than that. 1241. Very well, I understand. Were there any biscuits on board? - Not that I am aware of, Sir. 1242. Did you look for them? - No, Sir. 1243. Then you cannot say? - No. 1244. Was there water on board? - Yes, Sir, there was a breaker of water. 1245. A breaker with water in it? - Yes, Sir. The Commissioner: What is a "breaker," - a can? 1246. (The Attorney-General.) I understand it is a cask that shape (showing). (To the Witness.) It is a breaker into which you put the water? - A breaker with a bung-hole to it, just like the top of this water-bottle. There was no compass, Sir, and no biscuits. 1247. (The Commissioner.) I thought you said you did not look for the biscuits? - I understood the other two men to say there was no biscuits, my Lord. 1248. (The Attorney-General.) So far as you are concerned you did not look, and so far as you know there were none - that is as I understand it? - Yes. 1249. Did you tell anybody to look? - No, Sir. 1250. You were in charge? - No, Sir, not at that time. 1251. But at any time before you got on to the "Carpathia"? - I heard them say that there was no biscuits when we got to the "Carpathia." 1252. When you got to the "Carpathia"? - When we got to the "Carpathia." When we were aboard the "Carpathia." 1253. Did you look yourself then? - No, I did not look myself then. 1254. You said something about the compass; did you look for a compass? - Yes, Sir. 1255. Was there one? - No, Sir. 1256. Had you a mast and sail on board? - That was taken out of the boat before the boat was launched. 1257. By whom? - By the men that were working about in the boat. 1258. You mean the men uncovering the boat? - The men that were helping to get it out. When the boat was being lowered down out of the rails the passengers took them and laid them on the deck. 1259. When you started, did you start from the ship's side without any mast or sail? - Yes, Sir. 1260. But there had been a mast and sail in the boat which had been removed before she was launched, is that it? - Yes, Sir. 1261. Does that mean that in the confusion the mast and sail were not taken - is that what you mean, or were any orders given? - No, Sir. They were passed out of the boat to make room, I think. 1262. At any rate, they were passed out of the boat and not passed back into the boat? - Yes. 1263. But you did not hear any special order given about it? - No, Sir. 1264. Now about the boats on the "Carpathia"; were the boats taken on board the "Carpathia"? - Some were. Mine was not. Mine was cut adrift. 1265. Some were taken on board. They were all taken to the "Carpathia," and then the boat was set adrift - was that it? - Yes. 1266. (The Commissioner.) Do you know how many lifeboats were taken on the "Carpathia"? -I think about 13, my Lord. 1267. Then there were not many cut adrift? - I think there was about two cut adrift, my Lord. 1268. (The Attorney-General.) Do you know anything about the use of glasses for the look-out? Have you acted as look-out at all? - Well, I have been on the look-out, Sir, in mail boats, but not in the White Star Line. 1269. In what mail boats have you been on the look-out? - Troopships chiefly, Sir, and different kinds of vessels. 1270. Have you been on any liners? - Yes, Sir. 1271. For what companies? - The Union-Castle and the British India. 1272. When you were on those vessels were glasses used by the look-out? - I do not know, Sir. I was never on the look-out on those ships. I was quartermaster always. 1273. You cannot tell me. You do not know whether there were or not? - No, Sir. 1274. And you do not know whether there were on the White Star Line or not? - No. The Commissioner: I want to know if this man can tell me whether the rockets which were sent up would be visible to this supposed ship which was five miles away. 1275. (The Attorney-General.) You told us, you know, that rockets were sent up to a ship that was, according to your view, two points on the port bow about five miles away? - Yes. 1276. Would the rockets that were sent up from the "Titanic" be seen by a vessel five miles away? - Quite easily, Sir. 1277. Did you see any answer - any answering signal? What I want to know is this: Did you see any rockets from any other vessel? - No, Sir.

Examined by MR. SCANLAN.

1278. I think you have told his Lordship that the night was calm? - Yes. 1279. Was the whole of the Sunday a calm day? - As far as I can remember there was a little breeze in the afternoon. 1280. A moderately calm day, it was? - Yes. 1281. Considering that the night was calm, would it have been possible if the "Titanic" had been provided with sufficient lifeboats to have taken safely away from her after the collision every passenger and every member of the crew? - Well, I think so, Sir. 1282. You have told us that you had only one sailor, in addition to yourself, in this lifeboat? - That is all, Sir. 1283. How many sailors do you consider would be necessary in order properly to man and navigate this lifeboat? - At least four besides the man that is steering the boat - five. 1284. Would that number have been sufficient even though the sea had been stormy? - No, Sir. In stormy weather you require more men. It is all according to the weather. 1285. (The Commissioner.) Will you tell me this: Would the lifeboats, in your opinion, have been of any use at all if there had been a rough sea? - I am sure they would not, my Lord. 1286. They would not? - No. 1287. (Mr. Scanlan.) Would the utility of the lifeboats depend to some extent on the proximity to you of any rescuing ship? - I beg pardon; I did not quite follow you; Sir. The Commissioner: That is not a question which it is necessary to ask. Mr. Scanlan: Even in a rough sea is it not possible with good seamanship to keep a lifeboat afloat? The Commissioner: Will you ask him first whether it is possible or easy to get it afloat to begin with. 1288. (Mr. Scanlan.) In a rough sea, when you have some wind, is it possible - is it easy (of course it is more difficult) to launch a lifeboat? - Well, yes, it is very difficult in lowering and launching a lifeboat in strong weather or strong winds - heavy sea. Mr. Scanlan: Is it possible even in a heavy sea for qualified seamen, able-bodied seamen, to launch, man, and navigate a lifeboat? 1289. (The Commissioner.) Had you ever had to do it? - Well, not in big ships, I have not, Sir. 1290. What was the fall from the boat deck to the water? - About 65 ft., my Lord. 1291. (Mr. Scanlan.) You say that your boat had a light. I think you stated that you came close beside four of the other lifeboats? - Yes, Sir. 1292. Was there a light in any of those? - The one that we tied up to - Mr. Bailey's - had no light because we were talking to him. He came alongside of us. 1293. Were you sufficiently near the other two or three boats to observe whether or not they had lights? - Oh, yes. We kept on showing our lights. The boats that had lights kept on showing their lights. Everybody did not have a light. Page 47 1294. While you were in the deck-house engaged at the wheel, did you learn from any of the officers whether warning had been communicated to the "Titanic" of the presence of icebergs? - The only thing I knew about ice at all was the order I received for the carpenter from the second officer. 1295. Was anything said to you about the reporting of icebergs? - No, Sir. 1296. Is it usual on board liners in circumstances of danger to double the watches - the look-out? - That is always so, Sir. 1297. Had the watch been doubled or augmented - increased in any way - on this occasion? - Not that I am aware of. They do not double the watches on the bridge, where there are three officers on the bridge, two junior officers taking eight-bell watches, and the senior officer taking command of the bridge. 1298. (The Commissioner.) Do they double that watch? - No, Sir. 1299. (Mr. Scanlan.) What watches do they double? - In ships where they are not manned with so many officers, and when they are nearing the shore in foggy weather they might double the watches. 1300. Is it usual in circumstances of danger to station a watchman at the bows - a look-out man? - I cannot say. He cannot see so well as the man can see in the crow's-nest. 1301. I am asking you, is it usual or not? - In some ships, Sir, they do station a man there. 1302. (The Commissioner.) As well as in the crow's-nest? - I have not seen that, my Lord - not a man stationed forward and stationed in the crow's-nest, too. 1303. (Mr. Scanlan.) If a watchman was stationed at the bow he would be considerably nearer the water than the man in the crow's-nest? - Yes, that is so, Sir. 1304. Would not a watchman stationed there with glasses have a better opportunity of detecting an iceberg ahead than a man in the crow's-nest? - I do not think he would have so good a chance myself, Sir. 1305. On this occasion there was not a watchman or a look-out man on the bows? - Not that I am aware of, Sir. The Commissioner: Are your instructions, Mr. Scanlan, that it is the practice on large liners to put a man in the bow to watch? Mr. Scanlan: Yes, my Lord. The Commissioner: From whom do you get such instructions? Mr. Scanlan: The instructions I get are from the Seaman's and Fireman's Union, my Lord, and from officials of that Union. 1306. (The Commissioner.) Have you ever seen a man in the bow, when there are men in the crow's-nest? - Never, my Lord. 1307. Did you ever hear of such a thing? - Never, my Lord. 1308. (Mr. Scanlan.) Besides you there were six other quartermasters? - Five others besides me. 1309. Six quartermasters in all. Is it usual when the order for drilling is given and the order for crews of the lifeboats, to station a quartermaster to a particular boat? - Yes. In the case of an emergency and a boat being launched the quartermaster not at the wheel would be the likely man to be sent with the boat with the officer in charge. 1310. I want to ask you a question about boat drill. When you have boat drill on the ships you have been sailing on, is it the practice for the seamen and the firemen and the stewards to muster on deck and take their stations in the places that they have to go to if an accident happened? - Always, Sir. 1311. And is it your evidence that on this occasion this was not done? - Not that I remember, Sir. It might have been done, but not to my knowledge. 1312. Had there been any training given to the seamen to your knowledge in the launching and manning of the "Englehardt" collapsible boats? - Not that I am aware of. 1313. Are they as easy to launch as the ordinary lifeboat? - No, they are a little more difficult, Sir, because those boats are swung in. You have to get the boats out, Sir.

Examined by Mr. HOLMES.

1314. You were given the order to hard-a-starboard? - Yes. 1315. Was that the only order you had as to the helm? - Yes. Mr. Holmes: Because, if your Lordship will remember, the evidence of the Witness Scarrott on Friday was quite the contrary, when he came up on deck. The Commissioner: What did he say? Mr. Holmes: He said that the ship appeared to be under a port helm, and appeared to be going around the iceberg towards the starboard side. The Commissioner: Did he say so? The Attorney-General: Yes, I think so. 1316. (Mr. Holmes.) It is Question 354. (To the Witness.) She never was under a port helm? - She did not come on the port helm, Sir - on the starboard helm. 1317. You said that after you left the "Titanic" the boats that had lights were showing them to each other? - Yes. 1318. Can you say how many boats you saw lights in? - No; I did not count them. 1319. Were there two, or three, or four? - Five or six of us. 1320. Five or six other boats had lights as well as yourself? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. LEWIS.

1321. Had you ever crossed the Atlantic before? - This was my first time in the North Atlantic, Sir. 1322. So that you had no idea as to the course, whether it was the usual course or not? - No. 1323. With regard to the captain giving an order to the carpenter, did the carpenter return? - I do not know, Sir. 1324. Have you had any experience as a quartermaster? How many able men would be required to successfully man a lifeboat the size of the one you were in? - For drill purposes they take 10 to 12 men. 1325. I mean under circumstances like these that you have been explaining? - They take about 4, Sir, besides somebody in charge to steer the boat. 1326. You think it would require at least 4 men and someone in charge to look after her properly? - Yes, Sir. 1327. Can you tell me whether any steps were taken to prevent passengers approaching the boat? - Steps were taken as regards the male passengers. They had to stand back and let the women and children get in the boats first. That was the order, Sir. 1328. What method was adopted to see to that? - All the officers had revolvers, as far as I am aware of, Sir. 1329. Did you observe any ropes drawn across the deck in any way? - Not that I am aware of. I never went to the aft side of the bridge, scarcely, from the boat I was stationed in. 1330. These revolvers - were they used at all? - I heard several reports, Sir, but, as regards anything else, I do not know. 1331. You simply heard? - I heard the reports of the revolvers - yes, Sir. 1332. You would not have seen the whole of Page 48 the deck? - No, I assisted in one boat, and my own boat that I was in. 1333. You would not have seen the whole of the deck? - No. 1334. When you left the ship, what position was she in? Was she well down? - Yes, the ship was well down by the head - well down by the bow, Sir. 1335. Had you any knowledge at all as to wireless messages having been sent? - No. 1336. No knowledge whatever? - No, Sir.

Further examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

1337. There are two or three questions that I should like to ask this Witness before my friend, Sir Robert Finlay, or Mr. Laing examines him. I am now going to deal with some questions which I see were put to him in America, because we shall have to call another Witness later on, and as this Witness may not be here then, he should be asked them now. You were examined before the Commission in America - you remember that? - Yes. 1338. Did you say that you started for the light which you expected to be that of a fishing schooner? - I said that, Sir. Yes, I did say that. 1339. You told us here it was a steamer; I see that this is what you said there? - We expected it to be a steamer from the ship, but when I got into the boat and could not get nearer to it, and being calm weather, and then we expected it to be a fishing boat, a cod banger, as we call it. The Commissioner: You led us to suppose that you thought at the time it was a steamer? 1340. (The Attorney-General.) I must point out to you that you said she was disappearing gradually as you were getting towards her? - So she was. 1341. Did you borrow a fireman from one of the other boats to help you to row? - Yes, that was in the morning part, to row back to the "Carpathia." 1342. Did you say this? "We borrowed a fireman from one of the other boats to help us to row, but we got no nearer the light"? - No, I do not remember saying that. I remember when I got this fireman out of Mr. Bailey's boat. It was to pull back to the ship. In fact I know we pulled back to the ship immediately I got him aboard, because all the other boats were going ahead of us showing us their lights. 1343. Were you at the tiller through the night? - I was, all the night. 1344. It was very cold? - Bitter cold. 1345. Did you hear cries of distress? - Faintly; yes, Sir. 1346. For several minutes? - I could not say several minutes, for a minute or two. 1347. Did you answer to the question: "Did you hear cries of distress"? Answer, "Yes, for several minutes"? - I think I said for two or three minutes. I do not think I said for several minutes. 1348. "Some men in the boat said they were the cries of people in the other boats signalling. I suppose they said that so as not to alarm the women." You said that? - Yes. 1349. Did you go in the direction of these cries of distress? - We had no compass in the boat and I did not know what direction to take. If I had a compass to know what course I could take from the ship, I should know what course to take, but I did not know what course to go upon. The Commissioner: I do not understand you. "I did not know where these cries came from." 1350. (The Attorney-General.) You heard cries of distress, you have told us? - Yes. 1351. Where did they come from? - I suppose from the "Titanic" when the "Titanic" had sunk. 1352. Could not you tell in what direction they were coming? - No, not hardly, Sir. 1353. Not hardly? - No, I could not tell what direction they were coming. 1354. (The Commissioner.) Was this after the "Titanic" had gone down? - After the lights had gone. I did not know whether the "Titanic" was gone down, but the lights had gone away from the ship. 1355. (The Attorney-General.) As I understand, what you told us before was that you saw the "Titanic," that she had her lights burning, you stopped about a mile's distance, and when you got to about a mile's distance you did not see the lights any more? - That is right, Sir. 1356. That is what you tell us? - Yes. 1357. What I want you to tell us is this: how long after that was it, or when was it, that you heard the cries of distress? - I had no time in the boat. I could not tell you hardly what time. 1358. Had you stopped before you heard the cries of distress? - Yes. We were made fast then to the other boat. Me and Bailey was made fast together. 1359. Mr. Bailey's boat? - Yes. 1360. If I understand you correctly, you did not make any attempt to reach the cries of distress, did you? - It was a matter of impossibility; I could not do it. 1361. I want to understand why it was a matter of impossibility? - I only had one sailor in the boat, and I did not know where we were. I had no compass. I judge I was about a mile away the last time I saw the lights. 1362. (The Commissioner.) You had your ears. Could not you hear where these cries came from? - Your Lordship, in the meantime, the boats were yelling one to another as well as showing their lights to try and let each other know whereabouts they were. 1363. I do not understand how a compass would help you to get to the cries? - That is the only thing that would help me, your Lordship. The Commissioner: I should have thought your ears would help you better?

Examined by MR. COTTER.

1364. On the day of muster in Southampton, what officer called the names out? - Mr. Murdoch, I think, Sir. 1365. After you had answered your name did he give you any instructions with regard to the boat, fire, or bulkhead door drill? - Not that I am aware of. 1366. He never gave you any? In other ships you have been in you said you have seen the general boat muster? - Yes. 1367. There was none on the "Titanic"? - No. 1368. Now I will take you to the time that she struck and you came out of the wheelhouse. You stated that she took a list to starboard? - Yes. 1369. When you got on deck had she come to a level keel, or had she still a list to starboard? - She still had a list to starboard when I was out on the deck. 1370. Had you any trouble in getting the people into the boat - the women? - Well, not a great deal of trouble, Sir; some seemed to come and some was half-inclined - they seemed rather to prefer to stay, to the best of my knowledge. The Attorney-General: May we know who this gentleman represents? 1371. (Mr. Cotter.) I represent the National Union of Stewards. (To the Witness.) When you got on deck you said the boats were slung. How far from a large ship's side is a boat when it is slung from the davits? - About two feet - that is, when the ship is level, when she has no list. 1372. Did any of the women object to step over that gap of two feet, with a drop of 60 feet? - You understand, Sir, that our boat was listed in against the ship's side because the vessel had a list to starboard, and I was on the port side of the ship. 1373. But no women endeavoured to step on board the boat? - Some had to be helped into the boat. Page 49 The Commissioner: And some would not go at all? 1374. (Mr. Cotter.) Yes; but I am going to try and point out that some women will object, when boats are slung out, to go on board. (To the Witness.) In your opinion, if you had shipped the women with the boats slung, would it not have been better, and you would have got more women and children in? - I do not know that. 1375. I was just asking you for your opinion. When you were being lowered had you any difficulty in getting the boat away from the ship's side? - Yes, we had to put our hands out several times. 1376. To push it away? - Yes. 1377. That is, through the length of the drop from the upper deck? - Yes, and the list as well.

Examined by MR. LAING.

1378. With regard to the "Cherub" log, where was it put out? - I think it was put out shortly after we left Queenstown. 1379. Is it taken every watch? - It is taken every two hours by the quartermaster when he got on the poop at the time. 1380. What was the reading when you took it? - The reading for the last day had been 45 miles. 1381. That is the calculation. What was the reading on the log? - I do not know the exact reading on the log, Sir. 1382. It would show the distance run from Queenstown, I suppose? - Yes. 1383. And in order to get what you said it was, 45 miles in two hours, you must make a calculation? - No. We took it, you see. We used to take it, we Quartermasters, by the speed the ship was travelling. We used to talk about it ourselves in our cabin. 1384. I want to know what reading you got from this log at 10 o'clock? - I could not tell you. 1385. Unless you knew what it was at eight o'clock you could not make the calculation? - We could only make the calculation by the run for the day. She had been going by the log.

(The Witness withdrew.)

(After a short adjournment.)

WILLIAM LUCAS, Sworn.

The Commissioner: I have since the adjournment received a letter from Mr. Champness, a solicitor, a gentleman who applied to me to appear for one passenger, and I declined to allow him to do so. He now tells me that he is instructed by five altogether, one first-class passenger, one-third-class passenger, another third-class, another third-class, and fourth a third-class, and he wants to appear for those five. He also says he is instructed by seven gentlemen who are constantly in the habit of making Atlantic voyages as passengers, and that they desire to be represented. In addition now I have a number of deceased Irish passengers; I daresay there are forty or fifty of them. Now, it appears to me quite impossible to allow gentlemen who are in the habit of crossing the Atlantic to be represented at all. I do not know where I should get to if I began that. I might as well admit the man in the street who takes an interest in this Inquiry to be represented. But I suggest that the representatives of passengers should consult together and agree upon some committee of passengers first, second, and third, and then if they can do that I shall be glad to have that Committee represented, so that the interests of the passengers may be in somebody's hands. The Attorney-General: I suggest that you might not see fit to object to representatives of each of the classes appearing. There may be some difference in the point of view taken. The Commissioner: I should have thought they could all have been entrusted in the hands of one man who would look after the interests of all three classes, but if you think we shall not get into difficulties by these innumerable people being present I shall not raise any objection. I have a strong objection myself to these numerous applications. One of the strangest is this last, in which gentlemen who occasionally or frequently make voyages across the Atlantic should be represented. The Attorney-General: If your Lordship could see your way to allow a representative of each of the classes to be present I think it would satisfy the demand. The Commissioner: I do not think so, but if it will, so much the better. Then let the representatives of the first-class, the second-class, and the third-class - there is not a fourth class I hope - each form a Committee, and then they may be represented. The Attorney-General: If your Lordship pleases.

Examined by Mr. ROWLATT.

1386. Is your name William Lucas? - Yes. 1387. Were you A. B. on the "Titanic"? - Yes. 1388. When did you join her? - Southampton. 1389. What day? - The day of the sailing. 1390. What time of the day did you join her? - I caught her at ten minutes to twelve when all the gangways were up. 1391. When did she sail? - The same day. 1392. Yes, but how long after that; what time? - Well, just after twelve. 1393. You joined the very last thing? - Yes. 1394. And where were you employed on the voyage? - With the watch. 1395. On the deck? - Yes. 1396. What was your watch on the Sunday that she hit the iceberg? What was your watch that afternoon? - We had the first watch. That would have been our watch below. 1397. When did you go off in the evening? - We had the first from four to six, and then our next watch was from eight to twelve. 1398. Therefore it was your watch when the accident happened? - Yes. 1399. Where were you when the collision did occur? - I had just left the mess room. 1400. Where is that on the ship? - Just above the forecastle. 1401. Will you show it us on the model? - Yes, it will be under here (pointing to the model). 1402. Down in the well? - That is right. 1403. Where the mast comes up - forward of the mast? - It would be about there (pointing on the model). 1404. Port or starboard side? - The port side. 1405. What was the weather? - We could not wish for better weather. 1406. Was it cold? - Well, it was. 1407. When did it begin to get cold? - I noticed it Saturday morning. 1408. Did it get colder and colder after that? - Colder and colder, yes. 1409. I suppose you did not think to look at any thermometers or anything of that sort yourself? - No, I only put on an extra jersey. 1410. You were your own thermometer? - Yes. 1411. I see. Did you hear of any ice? - Well, I knew it was knocking about. 1412. Did you hear it talked of or anything of the sort on board? - Only among my own sailor fellows, that is all. 1413. Discussing the question whether there might be ice? - Yes. 1414. Was that because it was so cold that you did that? - Yes. Page 50 1415. Did you not hear any orders about ice from officers? - No, not at all. 1416. You say you had just come out of the mess room when the collision occurred? - Yes. 1417. What did you hear, how did it sound like to you? - It very nearly sent me off my feet. 1418. A hard shock? - Yes. 1419. Was there a loud sound? - Well, I did not take that particular notice. I went to the fore-well deck and there I saw ice on the deck. 1420. Did you see the iceberg? - No, I did not. 1421. You would be down a little way you would not be able to see over the side? - No, we would have passed it. 1422. Where did you see the ice on the deck? - On the fore-well on the starboard side. 1423. Show me on the model how far forward does the well come? - This is the fore-well deck I am touching now (pointing to the model). 1424. How far forward does the well come before the deck begins? - This is the fore-well; it would be about here; that is where we sleep. There is about six yards difference. 1425. Where was the ice just abaft the mast? - About here, in the centre of the fore-well (pointing on the model). 1426. How much ice was there on the deck there? - I suppose, about a couple of tons. 1427. What colour was it? - It was a darkish white. 1428. What happened then, as far as you know? Whom did you see who came? - The first orders I got was up under the bridge; that would be the boatswain's mate, followed by the boatswain, "All hands up about the boats." 1429. How long was that after the collision do you suppose? - I suppose, about a quarter of an hour. 1430. What had you been doing in the meantime? - I had been playing nap - playing cards. 1431. Were you playing at nap again after the collision? - No. 1432. What were you doing between the time of the collision and the time you had the order about the boats? - Playing nap. 1433. After the collision? - No, not after the collision; before the collision. 1434. When the collision happened you stopped playing nap? - I stopped before the collision, because I was broke. 1435. Then after the collision what did you do? - I went down below to put on my extra jersey. 1436. Did you put on a lifebelt? - No, not at all. 1437. Had you a lifebelt? - I had one, but I would not put it on. 1438. At that time did you think there was any danger? - Not at all. 1439. You say you came on deck and you heard the order, "All hands up to the boats"? - Yes. 1440. Did you obey that order? - I did. 1441. And did you go up on to the boat deck? - Yes. 1442. Where did you go? - The first boat I had anything to do with was No. 2, but that boat was already swung out. 1443. What was your boat? - My boat was No. 1. 1444. Did you know that? - I knew that, yes. 1445. How had you found out? - By the lists that is always put up in all the boats I have been in; in nearly all the White Star boats. 1446. Where was the list put up? - Just above the forecastle. 1447. And you saw it there? - Yes; I saw it. 1448. When did you see it? - I saw it the day after we left Queenstown. 1449. Did you say you had found it in all the White Star boats? - In all that I have been in and I have been in four of them. 1450. You saw it the day after you left Queenstown? - Yes. 1451. Do you know when it was put up first? - Well, they very nearly always put them up so that you can muster on a Sunday. 1452. Can you remember when it was put up on the "Titanic" this time? - Well, I should say on Saturday night. 1453. You saw it when you left Queenstown? - Yes. 1454. (The Commissioner.) You left Southampton on Good Friday, I understand? - Yes. The Commissioner: Is not that right? The Attorney-General: I am not sure that it is. I think they joined on the Good Friday. Mr. Rowlatt: When did you leave Southampton? - It was the next week, was it not? 1455. (Sir Robert Finlay.) It was on the Wednesday following. The Witness: It was on the Wednesday, I think. 1456. (Mr. Rowlatt.) You say your boat was No. 1? - Yes, that was my emergency boat. While I was at sea I got told off to two boats. 1457. When you got upon the deck did you go to No. 1? - No, not at that time, I did not. 1458. Where did you go? - I went to the assistance of all the boats there to be swung out from the deck. 1459. This one had not to be swung out? - No, it was already swung out. 1460. That is it, slung outboard already (pointing on the model)? - Yes. 1461. Then you went to the next one, No. 2? - The opposite side, the port side. 1462. Who was in charge of that boat at that time; was any officer there? - The only officers I saw there were Mr. Moody and Mr. Lightoller. 1463. Did they give you any orders? - Yes. 1464. What did they say? - They said "get out the boats," we all got out those boats - before the boats were lowered, before they were swung out. 1465. They had to be uncovered I suppose? - Yes. 1466. And then got out outside the rails? - We took the covers off and slung them inboard. 1467. Did you stay at No. 2 boat? - No. 1468. Where did you go? - To number 4 and number 6, and then I went right aft. 1469. What boats did you go to right aft? - The lifeboat - I mean on the boat deck. 1470. Do you know what number? - Well, No. 16, No. 14. 1471. Right aft on the other side, on the port side? - On the boat deck there, right aft. 1472. That was before anybody got into the boats was it? - That is right. 1473. Do I understand you to say that all the boats were outside before anybody got in? - Before anybody was lowered. 1474. Where did you see the first people get into the boats? - The afterpart of the ship where I first started lowering boats. 1475. What boat was that? - That was number 16, 12. 1476. How many people got into that? - They were not fully manned by a long way. 1477. Not full? - No not full. 1478. Was any order given about filling up? - Yes, but there was not anybody there handy - No women. I was singing out for women myself. 1479. Had you received the order that women were to be put in the boats? - Yes. 1480. Whom did you receive that from? - Mr. Moody, the sixth officer. 1481. Was he there or was he by the falls? - He was near me when I was lowering. 1482. And you called out for women and there were no more? - That is right, Sir. 1483. That was right at the afterend was it? - Yes, the afterend of all. 1484. Do you know where the access from the third-class accommodation comes up? - Well, I never knew my way up myself and I was a sailor on the ship. 1485. I daresay you had never been that way before? - No. I do not think those people had time to go there without directions from somebody; I hardly knew my way there myself. 1486. When you say the way, what do you mean - the way where to? - The boat deck. 1487. You had come up this forward end, had you not? - Yes, the fore end. 1488. I see there is third-class accommodation at both ends of the vessel? - Yes. 1489. Were there third-class passengers here forward? - Yes, they were. Page 51 1490. Do you know if there were aft too; perhaps you do not know? - Well, I think the general rule is women aft and the men forward. 1491. As far as the third-class passengers forward were concerned they would come up the same way that you went to the boat? - The same way as I went. 1492. How did you get up? What sort of access is there? - You come up about three flights of ladders to get to the promenade deck. 1493. And then from the promenade deck? - And then I have to go up another two flights to get to the boat deck. 1494. Where are they in the ship? - About here. There is a ladder leads up here, and then you go back again and go up the ladder here (pointing on the model). 1495. What sort of ladder? - A wooden ladder. 1496. A gangway ladder? - Yes. 1497. Not a ladder that you can go up hand over hand? - No. 1498. (The Commissioner.) Steps? - Yes. 1499. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did you know what the passengers were on the boat deck - first-class, second-class, or third-class? - The majority first-class. 1500. Along where you were? - Yes. 1501. How many boats did you see filled. How many boats did you take notice of as they were being filled? - About nine. 1502. Could you see whether they were all filled to the full capacity? - They were not all filled. 1503. Why was that? - Because there were no women knocking about. 1504. Was there good order? - Yes, excellent order. 1505. And were the boats that you saw all lowered successfully to the water? - I lowered the majority of the boats on the port side. I never lowered a boat in the water at all; I lowered them about three feet from the water. 1506. But they all got into the water all right? - Yes. Those boats are all fitted with a patent dropping gear. You pull a little lever, and the boats drop without lowering them into the water. 1507. Were you told to help to lower the boats? - I was warned off by Mr. Moody, and to stand by. 1508. How many boats did you help to lower? - About eight. 1509. One after the other? - Yes. 1510. With regard to each of them was there very orderly embarkation of women? - Yes. 1511. Then finally did you go in a boat? - Well, I got in a boat and I got ordered out by Mr. Lightoller. That was the last boat that left. 1512. Then you were ordered out of the boat? - Yes. 1513. Could you see whether the boats were properly equipped with oars and things? - The two boats that I got into afterwards were properly manned with oars. 1514. You said 16 was the last boat, did you not? - No; 16 was the last boat like, the after boat on the port side. 1515. What was the last boat you got in? - The collapsible boat, the port side, inside the emergency boat. 1516. Is that the one you got into? - I got into her and got ordered out. 1517. Who ordered you out? - Mr. Lightoller. 1518. What did you do then? - I went over to the starboard side to see if there was any more boats there. There were no more boats there so I came back and the boat was riding off the deck then. The water was up under the bridge then. The ladies sung out there was no sailor in the boat and no plugs, so I was a sailor and I jumped into the boat. 1519. It was a boat that was on the deck, just explain that? - Just here (pointing to the model). 1520. What boat was that? - A surf boat; they call them collapsible boats. 1521. She was lying on the deck? - Yes. 1522. The sides collapse, do not they? - No, they are three parts clinker boats and about three parts of the gunwale is canvas. 1523. Had the gunwale been pulled up? - Yes. 1524. And made fast? - Yes. 1525. Who had done that? - I assisted in doing that. 1526. Who else? - There were eight more sailors there besides myself just at the time. 1527. At that time you say the water was right up to the place where you were? - The ship was at that angle then (indicating). 1528. (The Commissioner.) And the water up to the bridge? - Yes; the water under the bridge. 1529. (Mr. Rowlatt.) How long was that after the collision? - I should think about an hour and a quarter. 1530. Was it long after all the other boats had gone away? - I should say about a quarter of an hour. Mr. Rowlatt: Here is an illustration of these collapsible boats, if you care to look at it, my Lord. It is a very shallow boat. (the same was handed to the Commissioner.) The Commissioner: I have seen them. 1531. (Mr. Rowlatt - To the Witness.) You were telling us about this collapsible boat; you assisted to get her out? - Yes. 1532. Now what did you do with her? - I pulled her to the davits. 1533. Did you hook her on the falls? - The same falls used for the emergency boat picked up that boat. 1534. Did you get the falls up again? - Yes, but the water was about 1 1/2 feet then when she was strung up to the davits. 1535. What falls do you say? - The same falls as the emergency boat used. 1536. They had been hauled up again? - Yes. 1537. Did you lower her and get her to the water by these falls? - No, they only required lowering. They were already in the water. 1538. Who got into her? - About forty women. 1539. And what men? - Well, I found three men in the boat afterwards, but I never saw them in the boat when she went away. 1540. Did you go away in that boat? - I went away in that boat. 1541. Who were the other men? Were they seamen? - One-quartermaster and two foreigners in the boat. 1542. (The Commissioner.) What do you mean by foreigners - passengers? - Yes. 1543. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Two foreign passengers? - Yes. 1544. Do you know what class they were? - Well, I should think they were third-class. 1545. Then did you push off from the side? - No. 1546. I mean to row away? - The water was there. 1547. Did you row away? - Yes. 1548. You practically floated off the ship? - Yes. 1549. How far off did you go? - Well it was about 100 yards before the first explosion went. It was a very loud report. 1550. You heard an explosion? - Yes. 1551. Then did you row further off again? - Yes. 1552. How many oars had you? - About eight. 1553. Plenty? - Yes. 1554. How many people had you rowing? - Well, I had to ask a couple of women to get hold of an oar. 1555. How many oars had you out altogether? - About four. 1556. Who was in charge of the boat - who was steering? - There was no rudder there. 1557. No rudder at all? - No, I was in charge of the boat. 1558. Did anybody steer with anything? - No. I kept on changing my oar from port to starboard to keep her away as best I could. 1559. You were doing that? - Yes. 1560. You were in command of the boat? - Yes. 1561. Did you see the "Titanic" sink? - Yes. 1562. How far off were you when she sank? - I suppose about 150 yards. 1563. Then it was not very long after you left her that she did sink? - No. 1564. Had you been rowing all the time? - I was not rowing long before she went down. Page 52 1565. (The Commissioner.) When you floated in this collapsible boat into the sea were you on the port or the starboard side? - The port side. 1566. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did you see any light? - Well, I did see a light, a faint sidelight of another ship. 1567. Where away? In what direction? - On my port hand it was then. 1568. You saw a light? - Yes. The Commissioner: A faint sidelight as I understand. 1569. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Where was it? - Off my port hand as I was in the boat. 1570. Do you mean it was a port light? - Was it a red or a green light? - A red light - a sidelight. 1571. Now in what direction from you was it? That is what I wanted to ask - taking the bow of the "Titanic"? -