Page 33

Wreck Commissioners' Court.

SCOTTISH HALL,

BUCKINGHAM GATE,

Tuesday, 7th May, 1912.

PROCEEDINGS

WIITH

THE RIGHT HON. LORD MERSEY,

Wreck Commissioner of the United Kingdom,

WITH

REAR ADMIRAL THE HON. S. A. GOUGH-CALTHORPE, C.V.O., R.N.,

CAPTAIN A. W. CLARKE,

COMMANDER F. C. A. LYON, R.N.R.,

PROFESSOR J. H. BILES, LL.D., D.Sc.,

MR. E. C. CHASTON, R.N.R.

Acting as Assessors.

ON A FORMAL INVESTIGATION

ORDERED BY THE BOARD OF TRADE INTO THE

LOSS OF THE S. S. "TITANIC."

THIRD DAY.

THE RIGHT HON. SIR RUFUS ISAACS, K.C., M.P. (Attorney-General), SIR JOHN SIMON, K.C., M.P. (Solicitor-General), MR. BUTLER ASPINAL, K.C., MR. S. A. T. ROWLATT and MR. RAYMOND ASQUITH (instructed by SIR R. ELLIS CUNLIFFE, Solicitor to the Board of Trade) appeared as Counsel on behalf of the Board of Trade.

THE RIGHT HON. SIR ROBERT FINLAY, K.C., M.P., MR. P. LAING, K.C., MR. MAURICE HILL., K.C., and MR. NORMAN RAEBURN (instructed by Messrs. Hill, Dickinson and Co.), appeared as counsel on behalf of the White Star line.

MR. THOMAS SCANLAN, M.P. (instructed by Mr. Smith, Solicitor), appeared as Counsel on behalf of the National Sailors' and Firemen's Union of Great Britain and Ireland and of the personal representatives of several deceased members of the crew and of survivors who were members of the Union. (Admitted On application.)

MR. B0TTERELL (instructed by Messrs. Botterell and Roche) appeared on behalf of the Chamber of Shipping of the United Kingdom. (Admitted on application.)

MR. THOMAS LEWIS appeared on behalf of the British Seafarers' Union. (Admitted on application.)

MR. L. S. HOLMES (of Messrs. Miller, Taylor and Holmes, of Liverpool) appeared on behalf of the Imperial Merchant Service Guild. (Admitted on application.)

MR. COTTER appeared on behalf of the National Union of Stewards. (Admitted on application.)

MR. HAMAR GREENWOOD, M.P. (instructed by Messrs. Pritchard and Sons), watched proceedings on behalf of the Allan Line Steamship Company.

MR. HAMAR GREENWOOD, M.P. (instructed by Messrs. William A. Crump and Son), watched proceedings for the Canadian Pacific Railway Company.

MR. ROCHE (instructed by Messrs. Charles G. Bradshaw and Waterson) appeared on behalf of the Marine Engineers' Association. (Admitted on application.)

MR. A. CLEMENT EDWARDS. M.P., appeared on behalf of the Dockers' Union. (Admitted on application.)

Page 34

Mr. Roche: I have an application to make to your Lordship on behalf of the Marine Engineers' Association. It is an application to take a limited part in this Inquiry, but there are certain things which affect the members of that society very deeply. It is an association, the largest, I think, and the most recognised association, of marine engineers in England, with 10,000 seagoing members, marine engineers. The magnitude of the society is shown by the fact that some half or a large proportion of the engineers of this unfortunate vessel were members of this society.

The Commissioner: That seems reasonable.

The Attorney-General: I see from the ratings there were 25 engineers on board. I think they ought to be represented.

Mr. Harbinson: May I make an application to your Lordship? I have been instructed on behalf of a section of third-class passengers, Irish passengers, 180 of whom left Queenstown on the "Titanic," and of whom I am informed only 20 were saved. I have been asked to apply to your Lordship, with the authority of the learned Attorney-General, for permission to take part in this Inquiry. I quite appreciate and understand that it will be undesirable that there should be any duplication or anything in the nature of overlapping in the evidence given or in the questions asked. That, my Lord, would be undesirable. With your Lordship's permission, perhaps, on behalf of this important section, I might supplement some of the others and add something to the information to be submitted to this Inquiry.

The Commissioner: Will you put down in writing the names and addresses of those whom you represent and hand it in to my secretary, and I will then consider your application?

Mr. Harbinson: That shall be done.

Mr. Clement Edwards, M. P.: May I make an application on behalf of the Dock, Wharf, and Riverside Workers' Union? There is an application before your Lordship stating the names of persons on whose behalf I seek to appear. I do not know whether your Lordship has it in mind.

The Commissioner: I have not seen such a paper, but you must give me the names and addresses of the persons who desire to be represented and state what the reasons are. If I grant all these applications, this Inquiry will get into a state of inextricable confusion, but I will try to give permission to everybody that I think ought to be heard, separately.

Mr. Edwards: I have here a copy of the written application.

The Commissioner: Well, then you must hand it in to my secretary, and I will look at it.

Dr. Jackson Wolfe: I appear for the relatives of a number of third-class passengers, Irish emigrants, who joined at Queenstown. I think there is some misapprehension as to the number of passengers.

The Commissioner: Is this an application on behalf of another section of third-class passengers?

Dr. Wolfe: Yes, my Lord, and I am in a position to hand in the names and addresses.

The Commissioner: Is it suggested I should allow the third-class passengers to be divided into groups, and each group to be separately represented?

Dr. Wolfe: If your Lordship would allow me to suggest, I am sure I could work in harmony with my friend.

The Commissioner: Then you must consult him, and when you have arrived at some sort of agreement, let me know.

Dr. Wolfe: I can hand in the names and addresses.

The Commissioner: You can hand it in together with the list which that gentleman is going to hand in.

Mr. Harbinson: I wish to say, my Lord, that Mr. Farrell, who instructed me to make the previous application to your Lordship on behalf of the third-class passengers, represents almost the whole of the number, and tomorrow morning he can have authority practically from the whole.

The Commissioner: Then what does that gentleman mean by telling me he represents a number?

Dr. Wolfe: The number I represent is 21. The total number of Irish passengers who joined at Queenstown is 113. Of those, 69 were drowned, and of those 69 who were drowned, the relatives of 21 have instructed the solicitor who has instructed me.

The Commissioner: You must put it all down so that I can understand it, but at present I am not at all disposed to let any one class split itself up into a number of groups and each group to be represented. I should not know really how to conduct this Inquiry if I did. (To Mr. Roche.) It has been suggested that I had not given you leave to appear; I certainly intended to do so.

Mr. Roche: And I so endorsed my brief, my Lord.

The Commissioner: Is there anyone else?

The Attorney-General: No, not that I am aware of.

GEORGE WILLIAM BEAUCHAMP, Sworn.

Examined by MR. RAYMOND ASQUITH.

652. Is your name George William Beauchamp? - Yes.
653. And were you a fireman on the "Titanic"? - Yes.
654. Were you on duty on Sunday, the 14th, when the ship struck? - Yes.
655. Where were you? - Eight to twelve watch.
656. Were you down below in the stokehold? - Yes.
657. Which stokehold was it? - No. 10.
658. Can you see the plan from where you are? - The second one from the forward end.
659. The second one from the bow? - Yes.
660. Can you say what pressure of steam was being carried at that time? - I could not say.
     1. (The Commissioner.) Do you know anything about the pressure of steam? - We were carrying it where we had orders. What the orders were I could not say for certain.
661. I do not want you to tell me anything you do not know yourself; I do not want you to guess. I want you only to tell us what you know yourself? - Sometimes they carry 210 and sometimes 200. I think we were carrying thereabout 210 then.
     The Attorney-General: We will get it from somebody else who knows it better.
     The Commissioner: I do not think he knows anything about it, and I should not expect him to.
1. (Mr. Raymond Asquith - To the Witness.) Did you notice the shock when the ship struck? - Yes, Sir, I noticed the shock.
662. Was it a severe shock? - Just like thunder, the roar of thunder.
663. And immediately after the shock was any order given? - Yes.
664. What order? - To stand by, to stop. - The telegraph went "Stop."
1. (The Commissioner.) You got that order from the bridge, "Stop"? - Yes.
2. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) And were the engines stopped at once or not? - The telegraph rung off "Stop," so I suppose they were.
665. Did the engineer in your section give you any order? - Yes; the engineer and the leading stoker shouted together - they said, "Shut the dampers."
666. Did you shut the dampers? - Yes, immediately; "shut everything up."
667. Was anything done to the watertight doors after that time? - Yes, immediately the telegraph rang "off" and the order was given to shut up everything the watertight doors dropped.

Page 35

668. The watertight doors dropped? - Yes.
     1. (The Commissioner.) How soon do you suppose after the order to "Stop" came from the bridge did the watertight doors close? - In less than five minutes.
     2. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Can you say which watertight doors they were - in which bulkhead they were? - The watertight doors shut. There was only one in the section where I was. They all shut all through.
     3. (The Commissioner.) Did not all the bulkheads close at one time? - Yes.
        The Commissioner: If the order came from the bridge to close the watertight bulkheads, would not they all simultaneously be closed?
        Mr. Butler Aspinall: I believe if they were all in working order they would.
     4. (The Commissioner.) I assume they would all close; they would not close some only. (To the Witness.) At all events, all you know is that those which were in your compartment were closed? - Yes, Sir.
     5. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) After the watertight doors were closed, was any order given to you with regard to the fires? - Yes, I could not say when - it was a few minutes afterwards; the order was given to draw fires.
669. A few minutes after what? - After the order was given to shut up, an order was given to draw fires. I could not say how many minutes, but the order was given to draw fires.
670. And did you obey that order? - Yes.
671. Did you see any water? - Water was coming in on the plates when we were drawing the fires.
672. What do you mean by "the plates"? - The plates of the stokehold where you stand.
1. (The Commissioner.) You mean where the stokers were standing? - Yes.
673. What happened then? - The water was just coming above the plates then.
     1. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) You mean it was coming through the floor? - Yes, coming through the bunker door and over the plates.
674. Through the bunker door? - Yes, coming through the bunker like.
675. When you had drawn the fires what did you do next? - Waited till everything was shut down and an order was given. Someone shouted "that will do," when everything was safe, when everything was shut down.
676. What did you do? - When the order was given someone shouted "that will do," and so I went to the escape ladder.
677. Is that the ladder by which you get out of your stokehold when the watertight doors are closed? - Yes, the escape ladder.
678. Can you say how long it took to draw the fires? - I could not say how long it took, just the usual time; I could not say for certain.
679. What is the usual time - you have often done it, I suppose? - Yes, I have done it a good many times. Of course, it all depends what you have got in the fires as a rule.
680. Can you say whether it took a few minutes or half an hour? - It took about a quarter of an hour, I suppose.
681. Did you notice any more water coming through during that quarter of an hour? - When the order was given and everything was shut up, someone shouted "that will do," and I went to the ladder then, the escape ladder.
682. But I asked you did you notice any more water coming through as time went on; did it come through in greater quantities? - I was going up the ladder.
683. Your answer is you do not know - is that what you mean? - I do not know.
684. When you went up the ladder where did you go to? - I walked aft in the alleyway, right aft.
685. Which deck? - Where the stokehold doors were; I do not know what deck it was.
686. Did you go up to the boat deck? - Yes, I went right along aft up the companionway up to the boat deck.
687. Did you know what your boat station was? - No.
     1. (The Commissioner.) Why not? - The list was put that morning, they said, but I did not see it.
688. Does that mean to say you could have seen it but did not look? - I heard someone say it was put up, but did not look.
689. Therefore you did not know which was your boat? - No, Sir.
690. And that was because you had not looked to see? - Yes, I did not look to see. That is right, Sir.
     1. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) You say you heard a list had been put up that day? - Yes, that morning.
691. Had you looked to see if there was a list before that day? - There was no list before that day.
     1. (The Commissioner.) Had you looked, was the question. You did not look for this one. Had you looked to see whether there was a list? - Yes, Sir.
692. When did you look to see if there was a list? - You generally see anything put up like that.
693. When did you look to see if there was a list? - When I was going about in the daytime.
694. But when - how many days before? - I was in the room, and I did not see any notice up.
695. Answer the question. You say you looked for this list some time before, and that you did not see it. When was it you looked for it? - The second day out.
696. Did you tell anyone the list was not there? - No, I did not say anything about it.
697. Why did not you tell someone that the list was not there, if it was not there? - I never took any more notice of it.
698. Then you say you looked and found it was not there and you said nothing. Is that right? - Yes, that is right.
699. And then on the morning of the day on which the collision took place you know there was a list there hanging up? - I never saw it.
700. You did not look? - No.
     1. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) And not knowing where to go to, what your boat was, what did you do? Where did you go? - I went aft on to the boat deck, and across to the starboard side, and stood on the deck of the ship by the boat and one foot on the boat and one foot on the lifeboat, like that, and helped the ladies and children in that were there, and the order was given by the officer then, "Lower away the boat, that will do."
701. Which boat was it? - No. 13.
702. No. 13 on the starboard side? - Yes.
703. Who was looking after that? Was there an officer there looking after it? - On the deck giving orders, yes.
     The Commissioner: This is the starboard side (pointing to the plan.) Tell me where No. 13 boat was.
     The Attorney-General: Is not the model better for him, my Lord?
     The Commissioner: That is also the starboard side?
     The Attorney-General: Yes.
     The Commissioner: Now show me No. 13. (The Witness indicated the position on the model.)
     1. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Was there an officer looking after the loading of that boat? - Yes.
704. Who was he, do you know? - No, I could not say who he was.
705. Did he give you any order? - He said, "That will do in that boat. Who can pull oars?" I said, "I can." He said, "Get into that boat. Lower away. That will do."
706. How long were you there before the order to lower away was given? - I could not say how long it was.
707. Did you help many people to get into the boat? - Yes. The order was given, "That will do; that is enough for that boat," and I stepped into the boat and went away with it.
708. I want you to say, if you can, how the people were chosen that got into the boat? - Women and children first.

Page 36

709. Were there a lot of people standing about the boat or not? - There was. Some ladies would not come in the boat.
     1. (The Commissioner.) Did you say some lady or some ladies? - Some ladies. I heard one say it.
710. Some ladies refused to come in? - Yes.
     1. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) How many refused? - Well, I heard them saying - two or three of them saying, "No, I will not go; I will not go away in the boat."
711. Did they give any reason for refusing? - They did not give any reason, Sir.
712. However, you did put a good number of ladies into the boat? - Yes, all that would come.
713. Did you put any men in as well? - No, Sir.
714. Any passengers, I mean - any male passengers? - No, I never put any in.
     1. (The Commissioner.) Did any get in? - Yes, I suppose some of them.
     2. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Do you know how many, if any, got in? - I could not tell you the amount of male passengers there were in the boat.
     3. (The Commissioner.) The question is how many men got into the boat - men passengers? - I could not tell you the number.
715. Well, did some get in? - Yes.
716. Can you give us about how many? - I could not tell you the number that got there.
717. Was it 20? - I do not know. I never saw 20 get in. I stood like I could not see everything, helping the ladies and children in.
718. Then I suppose you took an oar after the boat went into the water, did you not? - Yes.
719. Well, you would see then how many men there were in the boat and how many women? - No. I was keeping the boat off the ship's side with an oar.
720. How long were you in that boat before you were picked up? - It was 10 minutes to 10 when I was picked up by the "Carpathia."
721. The next morning? - Yes.
722. Very well then, you were in the boat a very long time. Cannot you remember how many men there were in it and how many women passengers? - No, I could not say how many men there were in there. The boat was full, 70 - about 60 or 70 I should think all told.
     1. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Before the boat was lowered, while people were still getting in, were there a lot of men passengers as well as women passengers on the deck? - Yes, there were a lot on the deck all round there.
723. Did they try to get in or was it orderly? - Quite orderly. Everyone obeyed orders. Everything was quite calm.
724. Could you tell whether the people that you saw standing round that boat were third-class passengers or first-class passengers? - No, Sir.
725. You did not know which they were? - No.
726. Who was in charge of that boat after it had been lowered? - The leading stoker and a sailor in the sheet ends of it. They were both in charge. I could not tell you which took charge of her.
727. Do you know their names? - Only Barrett. I think he took the tiller. He was giving orders. Barrett, the leading stoker.
728. How many of the crew were in this boat? - I could not say how many of the crew altogether that was in this boat.
729. There was you, and a sailor, and Barrett, the stoker? - Yes.
730. Did you have any difficulty in lowering and launching the boat? - Yes, we had a difficulty, because we were under the engine room discharge.
731. Did water come into your boat? - No. Everything lowered easily right till she got to the bottom, to the discharge, then we had a difficulty in keeping it away from the ship's side, to prevent the water coming in.
732. Did you succeed in keeping her away from the side and getting off? - Yes.
733. Did you have any difficulty in getting the boat free from the falls? - Yes. The boat was crowded. We could not get to the lever to get the blocks out.
     1. (The Commissioner.) That was because the people were in your way? - Yes, because the boat was crowded.
734. You had to push through? - You could not get through to where the lever was.
     1. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) What did you do? - Barrett cut one end of the falls and a sailor cut the other.
735. What did you do when you got free of the falls; did you row away or did you stand by the ship? - We pulled a little way away and then laid on the oars.
736. Can you say about how far you pulled away? - Well, I could not judge the distance; it was not very far away.
737. Do you mean 100 yards or do you mean half a mile? - It was not half a mile.
738. Could you see from where you were what was going on on the deck of the vessel? - Yes, we could see what was going on.
739. How long did you remain there? - We pulled on our oars again then and pulled further away because of the suction of the ship.
740. What I asked you was how long did you remain in your original position? - What, stopped pulling the oars?
741. No. You told me you first of all rowed a short way away from the ship. How long did you stay in that position? - I could not say how long it was.
742. How long was it between the time when you launched your boat and the time when the ship sank? Can you say that? - Well, I should say about half an hour.
743. Within half an hour she sank? - Yes.
     1. (The Commissioner.) I want to ask a question about that. How long were you upon No. 13 boat getting her into the water? How long did it take you to get her into the water? - I could not say the time, but not very long.
744. What do you mean by not very long? - Everything worked all right and very easily till we got to the engine room discharge.
745. Yes, and then you had to push the boat away with your oar from the ship's side? - Yes.
746. But how long were you altogether in getting that boat launched, getting the passengers in, getting in yourselves, letting her down, cutting the falls, and getting her into the sea? - I could not say.
747. Can you give me no idea? - Well, as quickly as possible. Every man did the best he could.
748. I have no doubt of that, but how long did it take? - I could not say the time.
749. Did it take an hour? - No, not an hour, certainly not.
750. Did it take 20 minutes? - No, Sir.
751. You did it in less than 20 minutes? - Yes, I should think so.
752. How long was it after the shock, after you felt the shock in the engine room, that you began to let down the boat? - I could not say.
753. To loosen the boat on the deck, you know? - I could not say.
754. We have heard something. You were a quarter of an hour drawing the fires and you were some time down in the stokehold after you got the order to stop. You were down there, as I understand, about half an hour after the order to stop came? - No, not so long as that.
755. Say 20 minutes, and then it took you 20 minutes to lower the boat? - It took us about that or less than that.
756. That would be about three quarters of an hour; and do you tell me the ship sank in half an hour after your boat got free? - From the time of the impact when the ship struck, someone in our boat had a watch; it was just about 2 hours and 10 minutes.
757. So I thought - a great deal longer than that. It was over 2 hours between the impact and the foundering? - About 2 hours and 10 minutes. Someone in the boat had a watch because it was between 20 and 25 to 12 when she struck, and it was just after 2 the gentleman said that she went down, or just about 2, somewhere handy 2 o'clock.
     1. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) When she sank were you near enough to see what happened; did you see how she sank? - Yes, she went down bows first; I could see the stern and then the stern went.

Page 37

758. Did you hear any explosion? - I could hear a roaring just like thunder.
     1. (The Commissioner.) Yes, but I wish you would apply your mind to the question. You were asked, did you hear any explosions? - Yes.
759. Are you sure? - Yes.
     1. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) How many did you hear? - You could hear the roaring as the ship went down as the explosion occurred.
760. Did you see anyone in the water after the ship went down? - No; you could hear the cries after the ship sank.
761. Did you go back to the place where the cries came from or not? - No; no order was given.
762. You did not go back? - No.
     1. (The Commissioner.) I did not understand him to say he heard cries. (To the Witness.) Did you hear cries after the ship went down? - Yes, Sir.
763. Was that from the people in the sea? - Well, I could not say; I daresay it was, I suppose it was.
     1. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) You did not go back? - No.
764. Had you any room for more people in your boat or not? - No. Had we had any more room we should have gone back, but we could not go back owing as we were full up.
765. Do you know whether there was any compass in your boat? - No, Sir; there was not.
766. Did you look for one? - There was no compass, not in the boat I know.
767. Did you look for a compass? - Some of them did, I think.
     1. (The Commissioner.) Did you? - No, I never. When I got on the "Carpathia" I looked.
     2. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Was there any lantern or lamp on the boat? - No, Sir.
768. Did you look for that? - Yes.
769. Did you know where to look for it? Where did you look? - We looked everywhere; everyone tried and looked the best they could, and there was no light in the boat, none whatever.
770. Were there any provisions? - No, Sir.
771. Any water? - No, Sir.
772. Did you look for those? - Yes, Sir.
     1. (The Commissioner.) Can you tell me whose business it would be to put the water and the biscuits on the boat? - I could not say.
     2. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) You have said already that it was about 10 minutes to 10 when you were picked up by the "Carpathia." Is that right? - Yes, it was 10 minutes to 10 by the clock when I looked.
773. By what clock was it 10 minutes to 10? - By the clock in the saloon of the "Carpathia."
774. Were you rowing all through that night? - Yes.
775. How many other men were rowing? - There was a steward there.
776. And did Barrett, the stoker, row? - He was taking charge of the boat aft.
     1. (The Commissioner.) Where were you rowing to; were you simply keeping the boat steady? - Well, we kept pulling till we saw a light, and we would row a little way and then stop, lay on our oars until we saw a light.
     2. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Who else were rowing in the boat besides you and the steward? - I could not say who else. The steward and I were on the oar I was on.
777. Can you say how many oars were being used? - Six.
778. Were they all men who were rowing of some sort, or did some women row? - They were all men, so far as I know.
     1. (The Commissioner.) How many oars were there? - We only had three oars each side.
779. That is six oars? - Yes.
780. Were six men handling those six oars? - There was me and the steward on the oar I was on.
781. You and a steward on one oar? - Yes.
     1. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) You said there was a sailor on the boat as well, an ordinary seaman. Was he rowing? - I do not know; I could not say.
782. Do you know whether there was a man called Major, a fireman, in the boat? - Yes.
783. Was he rowing? - I believe he was, yes.
784. And a man called Foley, a steward? - I do not know the steward's name.
785. Had you ever had any boat drill while you were on the "Titanic"? - No.
786. Or seen anybody else having boat drill? - No.
787. Where did you join the ship? - Southampton.
788. You saw no boat drill and had none yourself? - No.
789. When you were picked up by the "Carpathia" were you among the first of the boats or the last of the boats to be picked up or in what order were you picked up? - There were several there before us. I could not say how many for certain.
790. Do you know how many were picked up altogether by the "Carpathia"; how many boats, not how many people? - Thirteen.
791. Were those all lifeboats or do you include some collapsible boats? - They were all lifeboats.
792. Had you a lifebelt on during all this night? - No.
793. How was that? - I was on watch and of course I came up and I never had time to go and get a lifebelt, the ship was too flooded.
794. (The Commissioner.) Had any of the passengers lifebelts on in this boat? - Yes.
795. How many of them? - I could not say how many for certain; all those round me had lifebelts on.
796. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Had you a lifebelt of your own if you had been able to go and fetch it? - Yes; I believe there is one in our quarters for every man.
797. (The Commissioner.) Did you ever look at it? - No.
     The Commissioner: Are you going to ask any questions, Sir Robert?
     Sir Robert Finlay: I may have some, but I think it would be convenient if I waited.
     The Commissioner: Do you want to come next, Mr. Scanlan?
     Mr. Scanlan: I am not particular about the order, my Lord; but I should like to ask a question or two.
     The Commissioner: Well, I want to get the thing in order if I can.

Examined by MR. SCANLAN.

798. How long have you been going to sea, Beauchamp? - Ten years.
799. Have you been employed as a stoker on many liners? - Yes.
800. Is it the usual practice on liners to give the stokers boat stations? - Yes.
801. Do you, as a rule, get your boat station before the ship leaves the port of departure? - On some ships you do, Sir, and on some ships you do not.
802. Is it the usual practice on liners to have boat drill? - Yes.
803. How often is the boat drill held? - Some companies every Saturday.
804. Once a week? - Once a week. Not round the coast as a rule.
805. I am speaking now about liners; is it not the case that on liners you have boat practice or boat drill before the ship leaves for a voyage? - Yes.
806. And then do you have a boat drill or practice in the course of the outward voyage? - Yes, once a week.
807. When you were taking on the passengers on the boat deck, was there any officer of the ship bringing the passengers up to the boat deck? - There was one on the deck giving orders.

Page 38

808. Do you know if any officer went down to the steerage quarters to let the steerage passengers know the lifeboats were ready? - No, Sir; I do not know.
809. Can you tell me how many of you were rowing? [No Answer.]
     The Commissioner: Will you ask him what he was rowing for.
810. (Mr. Scanlan.) Yes, my Lord (To the Witness.) I think you said, Beauchamp, that you saw a light? - Yes.
811. And that you were rowing for that light? - Yes.
812. (The Commissioner.) Now, what was that light? - We did not know what it was then. We thought it was a boat.
813. How long did you see that light? - We could not see at all till we got handy to it, and then we could see it was a ship.
814. What sort of a ship was it? - Well, it was the "Carpathia's" lights.
815. When did you first see the "Carpathia's" light? - I could not say what time it was.
816. How long before the "Carpathia" picked you up? - A long time.
817. What do you mean by a long time - three hours? - I could not say the time; I have no idea of it.
818. What I want to know is this: What were you doing rowing in the boat before you saw the light? Where were you rowing to? - We rowed and then had a blow, and then rowed on again when we saw the light, Sir. We rested on our oars.
819. Were not you resting on your oars most of the time? - I do not know what you would row for? - Well, we rowed to the light when we saw one.
820. When you saw one, I can understand, but before you saw the light you were resting on your oars, were you not? - Yes.
821. (Mr. Scanlan.) Did you first of all row away from the sinking ship? - Yes.
     The Commissioner: Yes, he has told us that.
822. (Mr. Scanlan.) And then you commenced rowing to the light you saw. Can you tell me how many men were rowing with you in that boat? - There were two on the oar I was on; there were only six oars. I do not know how many men there were on each oar.
823. Were there six oars being in use at the time? - Yes.
824. Actually in use? - Yes.
825. If you had a light in the boat at the time the boat was lowered from the ship's side, could you have seen better to disengage the boat from the falls? If you had had a lantern or any light in the boat, could you have seen better how to disengage the boat from the falls? - No. That was all right; everything went all right.
     The Commissioner: This light is quite a small thing, and it would not, in my opinion, be of any assistance for that purpose.
     Mr. Scanlan: What I thought was that it might light them through the lifeboat itself.
     The Commissioner: Oh, no, it would not do anything of the kind.
826. (Mr. Scanlan - To the Witness.) Is it usual on liners for each fireman to get a badge something like this, letting him know his boat station (exhibiting badge.)? - In some companies it is.
827. And some companies do not do it? - No.
     The Attorney-General: Let me look at it. (The Badge was handed to the learned Counsel.)
828. (The Commissioner.) What companies have you had it at? Have you ever had a badge like that? - Yes.
829. What company? - The Union Castle Company.
830. Have you had a badge from any other company? - No, Sir.
831. How many companies have you served under? - Under the Union Castle Company, the Royal Mail, the White Star.
832. Any others? - No, Sir.
833. No other liners? - No, Sir.
834. (Mr. Scanlan.) You have told his Lordship that a stoker was in charge of this lifeboat? - Yes.
835. Have you ever heard of a stoker being in charge of a lifeboat in the arrangements of any company you have travelled with before? - No.
     The Commissioner: I do not quite know what you are driving at, Mr. Scanlan. Nothing went wrong in this boat, and it seems to have been launched in a very reasonable time.
     Mr. Scanlan: What I am trying to get at, my Lord, is that in ordinary circumstances the proper thing is to have an experienced sailor in charge of a lifeboat, and not a stoker.
     The Commissioner: I daresay, but these were not ordinary circumstances; they had to do their best.
836. (Mr. Scanlan - To the Witness.) When a list of a lifeboat's crew is put up in a ship, in what part of the ship is it placed? - In the forward end where the crew's quarters are.
837. If this had been in its place would you have necessarily seen it in going to your quarters? - I never looked.
     The Commissioner: That is not a pertinent question. Ask him if he would necessarily have read it.
838. (Mr. Scanlan.) You only heard of the list having been put up after the wreck took place? - No; I heard that morning.
     The Commissioner: (To Mr. Holmes.) Whom do you represent?
     Mr. Holmes: The officers.

Examined by MR. HOLMES.

839. Have you any recollection of the name of the officer who was in charge of the deck at the time? - No, I do not know.
840. He did not sail in your boat? - No; there was no officer there.
841. Can you say how many boats he was in charge of on the deck? - No.
842. Was he superintending people getting into more than your boat? - I never got up there in time to see that, only this boat.
843. And what order was given to you when your boat was lowered? - When we lowered there were enough in it.
844. You are satisfied there were enough people? - Yes, it was crowded.
     The Commissioner: He has told us it was full; so full they could not get any more on board.
845. (Mr. Holmes.) What order was given when you got into the water? - There was no order given. We could not get to the lever owing to so many people.
846. Were you told to stand by or to row away? - There was no order given.
847. No order was given at all? - No.
848. (The Commissioner.) But you knew what to do; you knew you had to get away from the side of the ship? - Yes, we had to get away from the side.
849. (Mr. Holmes.) Were you alone the whole time in your boat till you got to the "Carpathia," or were you one of the four boats that were tied up together under the charge of Mr. Lowe? - No; our boat was alone.

Examined by MR. LEWIS.

850. How long have you been employed by the White Star Company? - I have come out of the Union Castle Company into the White Star Company.

Page 39

851. Have you ever served on any other ship? - Yes.
852. Have you ever had a boat station given to you on any other ships of the White Star Company? - Yes.
853. Have you taken part in boat drill? - I have always had boat drill in New York.
854. On the Sunday? - Yes, on the Sunday morning.
855. (The Commissioner.) Is that the practice of the White Star Line? - I believe so.
856. Then is it the practice to have a boat drill before you start from Southampton? - Your names are called out; the fire stations and boat stations are given when you go on the ship. Your name is called out and you are generally told.
857. Told what? - Where to go. As you go along there; your name is called out; there are many of you there and you do not take much notice like.
858. You say that it was usual to have boat drill on Sunday at New York? - Yes.
859. Sunday comes after Saturday. I suppose in those circumstances you would not have a boat drill on Saturday. You would not have one on Saturday and one on Sunday? - No.
860. Therefore, on this line the lifeboat drill is on Sunday, is it? - Yes.
861. Is it usual to have a boat drill before the vessel leaves Southampton? - Yes.
862. Had you one on this occasion? - I cannot remember now.
863. I thought you told me a little time ago that you had not had one. Which am I to understand, either that you had not one or that you cannot remember? - I do not remember now, Sir; I cannot say.
864. (Mr. Lewis.) Were you on joining the ship told the number of your boat? Were you informed at any time of it? - I could not say.
865. Now, with regard to this list, have you ever noticed the boat list posted anywhere when leaving Southampton? - I have never looked - not the day of leaving Southampton.
866. Have you ever noticed it? - I never looked, not to see for certain the first day away.
867. You cannot say? - No.
868. Did you meet any other boat after you left the ship? - So many boats were all round; we could see the other boats round.
869. Do you remember any one in particular and anyone on the boat hailing it? - Someone hailed leading stoker Barrett on our boat, but I could not say who it was.
870. What boat was it? - I do not know the number.
871. Did you observe the boat? - Yes, we were close to it. They sung out, "Barrett, have you got any more room in that boat?" and he said, "No, full up."
872. Did you observe how high it was out of the water? - No, I did not take much notice of that.

Examined by SIR ROBERT FINLAY.

873. How long was it before the ship sailed that you joined at Southampton? - I joined her some time between 8 and 9 o'clock in the morning.
874. And when did she sail? - Twelve.
875. You do not remember any boat drill? - No.
876. Whether there had been one before you joined or not you do not know? - I do not remember.

Re-examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

877. I want you to help us if you can on this one point. You were in this boat for some hours after you left the "Titanic"? - Yes.
878. And you have told us, at any rate, that they were mostly women and children in the boat? - Yes.
879. I want you to try if you can to give us some idea of how many men there were in the boat? - I could not say the number of men.
880. You could not give us any idea? - No.
881. You have told us who were there, seamen and firemen like yourself? - What I know.
882. Yes, quite right. There were some men passengers there? - Yes, I think there were some.
883. But cannot you give us some idea whether there was a dozen, or six, or anything like that? - No, Sir, I do not know. I have no idea of the number at all.
884. (The Commissioner.) Were there more women than men in the boat? - Yes, there were more women and children in the boat.
885. (The Attorney-General.) Have you any idea how many there were in the boat altogether? - They were full up - someone said between 60 and 70 - I know it was crowded. I did not count the number.
     Sir Robert Finlay: Perhaps your Lordship will allow the Witness to point out on the plan where he was.
     The Commissioner: Yes.
     The Attorney-General: He did so.
     Sir Robert Finlay: It was not pointed out on the plan.
886. (The Commissioner - To the Witness.) Do you understand that plan? - Yes.
887. Could you point out to us what stokehold you were in? - Yes.
1. (Sir Robert Finlay.) Take that pointer and go over and point it out.

(The Witness indicated the position on the plan.)
888. (The Commissioner.) That is No. 10, is it? - Yes; No. 6 boiler, No. 10 stokehold.
889. (Sir Robert Finlay.) Was the stokehold fore or aft of the boiler? - Aft.
890. (The Commissioner.) I thought you said you were in the second stokehold from the bow? - Yes, Sir.
891. Now show me there which is the first stokehold from the bow.
     (The Witness indicated the position.)
892. I thought that was the stokehold you pointed to as the one in which you were? - No, that is the first one. This is the second one.
     The Attorney-General: And that is the one he pointed to, my Lord.

ROBERT HICHENS, Sworn.

Examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

893. Are you a quartermaster? - Yes.
894. And did you sail on the "Titanic"? - Yes.
895. Do you remember the Sunday, the day of the collision with an iceberg? - Yes.
896. During that day can you tell us whether it was particularly cold or not? - Yes, intense cold towards evening; in the day it was not very cold.
897. It got colder towards evening? - Yes.
898. I do not know whether you took the temperature of the water or whether you only speak of what it felt like about in the air? - I took the temperature of the water.
899. As well? - Yes.
900. (The Commissioner.) Was that part of your business? - Yes, my Lord.
901. (The Attorney-General.) When did you take it last before the collision? - A quarter to 10 - between a quarter and ten minutes to 10.
902. Did you take it at all before a quarter to 10 on that evening? - No.
903. Then you took it about a quarter to 10, and what was it? - I entered the reading in the logbook, but I can hardly remember at present.

Page 40

904. Did you notice whether it was particularly cold? - Yes, intense cold.
905. Do you mean that is what you found from taking the temperature of the water? - Yes.
906. Can you tell us when it first began to get colder on that day? - As far as I remember I went on watch at eight o'clock; it was bitter cold then.
907. Colder than when you had been on watch before? - Yes.
908. When did you go off watch before? - At six o'clock, the first dog-watch.
909. You were in the first dog-watch, and you went off at six? - Yes.
910. And then you came on after the second dog-watch? - Yes.
911. When you came on watch at eight o'clock did you act as stand-by on the bridge? - Yes.
912. Who was at the wheel? - Quartermaster Oliver.
913. You remained there on the bridge? - When I was not running a message.
914. Did you get any instructions from the second officer to give to the carpenter? - Yes.
915. About when in point of time? - Just immediately after I got on the bridge; I could not tell you to a few minutes.
916. It would be a little after eight o'clock? - Yes.
917. What were the instructions you were to give to the carpenter? - To take his compliments down and tell him to look after his fresh water; it was going to freeze; the thermometer was very low.
918. He was to look after the fresh water; it was going to freeze; the thermometer was very low? - Yes.
919. Is that the fresh water in the tanks? - Yes.
920. Is that the carpenter's business? - Yes, it is the carpenter's duty.
921. When you had done that did you come back to the bridge? - Yes.
922. Did you see the carpenter? - Yes.
923. Did you tell him? - I came back and reported to Mr. Lightoller, the second officer in charge of the bridge.
924. (The Commissioner.) And he was the man who sent you to the carpenter? - Yes.
925. (The Attorney-General.) Soon after you returned to the bridge, did you hear a conversation between the second officer and another officer about the look-out? - Yes.
926. The second officer and what officer was it? - The sixth officer, Mr. Moody.
927. Tell us what you heard? - I heard Mr. Lightoller speak to Mr. Moody and tell him to speak through the telephone to the crow's-nest to keep a sharp look-out for small ice and growlers until daylight and pass the word along to the look-out man.
     The Commissioner: Send a message to the crow's-nest to do what - to keep a sharp look-out for ice?
928. (The Attorney-General.) Small ice and growlers, I think he said (To the Witness.) That is right, is it not? - Yes.
929. Until daylight and pass the word along to the look-out man? - Yes.
930. That would be sending the message to the man in the crow's-nest and telling him to pass it along to the man who would relieve him? - Yes.
931. Who was in charge of the bridge at that time? - The Second Officer, Mr. Lightoller.
932. Who were the other officers with him at this time? - The Sixth Officer, Mr. Moody, and Mr. Boxhall, the Fourth Officer.
933. Mr. Lightoller, the Second Officer, Mr. Boxhall, the Fourth Officer, and Mr. Moody, the Sixth Officer? - Yes.
934. Were they all on the bridge at this time? - Yes.
935. Did you relieve Quartermaster Oliver? - I did.
936. At what time? - Ten o'clock.
937. What was the course given to you? - N. 71º W.
938. Do you know what was the course which was given to Quartermaster Oliver? - That was the same course.
939. Was there a course-board in the wheelhouse? - Yes.
940. Was there anything on the course-board to indicate the course you were to steer? - Yes, N. 71º.
941. That was on the course-board? - That was on the course-board, the steering compass.
942. Was she a good steering ship? - Fairly well, yes.
943. Up to the time of the collision did she vary from her course at all? - Not that I am aware of, not more than a degree on either side.
944. Were there two clocks in the wheelhouse? - Yes.
945. Do you remember the vessel striking? - Yes.
946. Did you notice the time when she struck? - Yes.
947. What was it? - Twenty minutes to twelve.
948. Had you had any instructions before she struck? Had you been told to do anything with your helm before she struck? - Just as she struck I had the order "Hard-a-starboard" when she struck.
949. Just as she struck, is that what you said? - Not immediately as she struck; the ship was swinging. We had the order, "Hard-a-starboard," and she just swung about two points when she struck.
950. You got the order, "Hard-a-starboard"? - Yes.
951. Had you time to get the helm hard a starboard before she struck? - No, she was crashing then.
952. Did you begin to get the helm over? - Yes, the helm was barely over when she struck. The ship had swung about two points.
953. She had swung two points? - Yes.
954. (The Commissioner.) Do let me understand; had she swung two points before the crash came? - Yes, my Lord.
955. (The Attorney-General.) I am not quite sure that I understand what you had done to the helm before this. You had got an order, "Hard-a-starboard"? -"Hard-a-starboard," yes.
956. You proceeded at once to put the wheel hard-a-starboard? - Immediately, yes.
957. Before the vessel struck had you had time to get the wheel right over? - The wheel was over then, hard over.
958. (The Commissioner.) Before she struck? - Oh yes, hard over before she struck.
     The Attorney-General: I rather understood him to say the opposite before. I do not think he understood.
     The Commissioner: Let me see if I understand it. Someone gave an order, "Hard-a-starboard"?
     The Attorney-General: Yes.
     The Commissioner: This was before she struck?
     The Attorney-General: Yes.
     The Commissioner: He put the wheel hard over?
     The Attorney-General: Yes; and got it hard over.
     The Commissioner: And got it hard over. The ship moved two points?
     The Attorney-General: That is right.
     The Commissioner: She did not move any more, because, as I understand, the crash came?
959. (The Attorney-General.) Exactly; that is the story. (To the Witness.) Who gave the order "hard a starboard"? - Mr. Murdoch, the First Officer.
960. When had he come on the bridge? - He relieved Mr. Lightoller on the bridge at ten o'clock.
961. Did the Fourth and Sixth Officers, Mr. Boxhall and Mr. Moody, remain? - Mr. Moody was standing behind me when the order was given.
962. And was Mr. Boxhall on the bridge? - From what I am given to understand, Mr. Boxhall was approaching the bridge.
963. Was Captain Smith on the bridge? - No, Sir.
964. Do you know where he was? - Yes, Sir; in his room.
965. So far as you know was there any change in the speed at which the vessel was travelling before she struck? - I took the log which was part of my duty at half a minute to ten, as near as I can tell, and the vessel was going 45 knots by the Cherub log every two hours.

Page 41

966. Forty-five knots? - Forty-five was registering on the log.
967. (The Commissioner.) Was the speed altered before the collision? - Well, the crash came immediately.
968. I know it did. Had the speed been altered before? - No, I could not say, my Lord, because I could not see the officer on the bridge. I am in the wheelhouse. I cannot see anything only my compass.
969. (The Attorney-General.) I think we can get at it in this way. What was the first notice to you that there was something ahead? - Three gongs from the crow's-nest, Sir.
970. That you would hear in the wheelhouse, would you? - Certainly.
971. And you knew what that meant? - Certainly, Sir.
972. That meant something ahead? - Yes.
973. How long was that before the order came "Hard-a-starboard"? - Well, as near as I can tell you, about half a minute.
974. In order that we may understand, if there was a telephone message from the crow's-nest to the bridge, would you hear it? Would you know anything about it? - Certainly so, Sir.
975. Would you indicate on the model where you were, where the wheelhouse is? - Yes. (The Witness indicated the position on the model.)
     1. (The Commissioner.) And the crow's-nest is just on the mast in front, is it not? - Just above the eyes of the fore-rigging.
976. (The Attorney-General.) Put your finger on it? - Yes. (The Witness did so.)
977. I think that is the indication of it; is it not? - Yes.
978. Then there is the telephone. What was the telephone message? Did you hear any? - I did not hear the message, but I heard the reply.
979. What was the reply? - "Thank you."
980. Who gave it? - Mr. Moody.
981. Then it means this, that Mr. Moody, the Sixth Officer, got a telephone message after the three bells had been struck? - Immediately after.
982. You did not hear what was said to Mr. Moody, but you heard him acknowledge the message, and say "Thank you"? - Yes. I heard Mr. Moody repeat, "Iceberg right ahead."
983. To whom did he repeat that? - To Mr. Murdoch, the First Officer.
984. "Iceberg right ahead"; is that what he said? - Yes.
985. Repeating what he had heard from the telephone message? - Yes.
986. And then what happened? - I heard Mr. Murdoch rush to the telegraph and give the order, "Hard-a-starboard."
987. When you say he rushed to the telegraph, is that the telegraph to the engine room you are speaking of? - Yes.
988. The order, "Hard a starboard," was to you? - Yes.
     The Commissioner: What order did he give to the engine room?
989. (The Attorney-General.) I do not think he knows. (To the Witness.) Do you know what order it was that was telegraphed down to the engine room? - No.
990. I think your Lordship will hear that it was, "Stop: full speed astern." Now just for a minute give me your attention on the point of speed. You have told us according to the log that the speed was 45 knots in two hours? - Yes.
991. Up to the time of hearing the three bells struck, was there any change of the speed at which the vessel was proceeding? - No, none whatever.
992. And the order, if any, that was given with regard to the speed would be the order by telegraph to the engine room, which you have told us you do not know? - I do not quite understand you.
993. You have told us what happened; first of all, the signal of the three bells, then the telephone message, then it was repeated to the First Officer, "Iceberg right ahead"; then the First Officer went to the telegraph to give an order to the engine room and gave you the order, "Hard-a-starboard"? - Yes.
994. At any rate up to his going to the telegraph as I follow you, there was no change of speed? - No, Sir.
995. What that order was you do not know? - No, Sir.
996. Then "Hard a starboard," and you immediately put up your helm? - Hard a starboard.
997. Right over? - Yes.
998. What is it, 35 degrees? - Forty degrees.
999. Then you got the helm right over? - Right over, Sir.
1000. Then she comes round two points and then strikes. Is that right? - The vessel veered off two points; she went to the southward of west.
1001. And then struck? - Yes.
1002. Were there blinds in the wheelhouse? - Yes.
1003. They were all closed? - Always closed just after sunset.
1004. And no lights were in the wheelhouse at all except the compass light? - And the small light.
1005. And the small light on the course board? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: Have you a green board here with some small wooden models?
      The Attorney-General: No.
      The Commissioner: You know what I want?
      The Attorney-General: Yes.
      The Commissioner: The report from the crow's-nest was "Iceberg ahead."
1006. (The Attorney-General.) "Iceberg right ahead." (To the Witness.) The helm was put hard-a-starboard? - Yes.
1007. And the ship moved two points? - Yes.
1008. Assuming the iceberg was right ahead, I should like to see what difference the two points would make, and what part of the ship would then be presented to the iceberg? - Yes.
      The Attorney-General: We can do it, of course. I quite appreciate what your Lordship means.
      The Commissioner: Mr. Laing could do it for me in a minute.
1009. (The Attorney-General.) It is a mere question of taking the indication of course. (To the Witness.) Did any one of the officers see you carry out the order? - Yes.
1010. Who? - Mr. Moody, and also the Quartermaster on my left. He was told to take the time of the collision.
1011. Let us get the fact of what happened. Was Mr. Moody there when you put the helm hard-a-starboard? - That was his place, to see the duty carried out.
1012. Was it his duty to report it? - Yes; he reported the helm hard-a-starboard.
1013. To whom? - To Mr. Murdoch, the First Officer.
1014. Then you had put the helm hard-a-starboard and Mr. Moody had reported it hard-a-starboard to Mr. Murdoch? - Yes.
      The Attorney-General: That is the only fact your Lordship had not got in the story.
      The Commissioner: I do not see the significance of it.
1015. (The Attorney-General.) It is only because you cannot fix the time except by seeing exactly what happened. That is the point of it. The estimate of time is of very little value, but if you can get what happened you can form an estimate. So that he had reported, and then it was after that that she strikes, is that right? - She struck almost at the same time.
1016. Almost as he reported it? - Yes.
1017. How long did you remain at the wheel? - Until 23 minutes past 12.
1018. And who relieved you? - Quartermaster Perkis.
1019. After she struck, did you notice at all what happened? - No.
1020. Did you notice whether the ship had stopped? - Oh, yes, the ship had stopped.
1021. Can you tell us how long it was after the collision that you noticed that the ship had stopped? - Immediately.
1022. While you were remaining at the wheel until 2.23 [12:23, see 1017], could you see what was going on on board the vessel? - I could not see anything.

Page 42

1023. You remained at your post? - Yes.
1024. I suppose you heard something of what was going on? - I heard a few words of command, that was all.
1025. Tell us what you heard in the way of command? - Just about a minute, I suppose, after the collision, the Captain rushed out of his room and asked Mr. Murdoch what was that, and he said, "An iceberg, Sir," and he said, "Close the watertight door."
      The Commissioner: Wait a minute. A minute after the collision, Captain Smith -
1026. (The Attorney-General.) Came out of his room on to the bridge do you mean? - Yes, Sir; he passed through the wheelhouse on to the bridge.
1027. He rushed out of his room through the wheelhouse on to the bridge? - Yes.
1028. And asked Murdoch, "What is that?" - Yes.
1029. And Murdoch said, "An iceberg." Is that right? - Yes.
1030. Mr. Murdoch said "An iceberg," and then? - The Captain immediately gave him orders to close the watertight doors. He said, "They are already closed." He immediately then sent for the carpenter to sound the ship.
      The Commissioner: The Captain gave orders to close the watertight doors?
1031. (The Attorney-General.) Yes. Mr. Murdoch said, "They are already closed." Do you know where they were closed from? - Yes, the fore-part of the bridge.
1032. Could you see them being closed? - I could not see anything but my compass.
1033. Where you were you would not be able to see it? - No.
1034. (The Commissioner.) Do you know what these doors are? - Yes, my Lord.
1035. Would that order from the bridge refer to all the watertight doors, or only to those that close automatically? - Only those that close automatically, my Lord.
      The Attorney-General: That is what I understood, my Lord. I think all the lower ones closed. I think that is how it stands; but, of course, your Lordship will hear it.
      The Commissioner: Some of them are worked by hand.
      Sir Robert Finlay: There are 12 lower doors which close when the button is pressed.
1036. (The Attorney-General.) Let us follow it. Mr. Murdoch said, "They are already closed"? - Yes.
1037. And then what happened? - He then gave orders to send for the ship's carpenter to sound the ship.
1038. That is what Captain Smith did? - Yes.
1039. Do you know whether the ship's carpenter was sent for? - I do not know; I only heard the order given.
1040. Did you hear any other order? - No other order after that. That was the last order I heard with the exception of the boats.
1041. What was that you heard about the boats? - I heard the Captain say "Get all the boats out and serve out the belts." That was after 12.
1042. I am rather anxious to get the time if I can? - I could not barely tell you the time.
1043. That is enough - as near as you can; it was after 12? - Yes, the Captain then looked at the commutator and he found that the ship was carrying a list to starboard.
1044. And were those all the orders you heard until you were relieved from the wheel? - Yes.
1045. When the vessel struck, did you feel any shock? - Yes. I felt the ship tremble, and I felt rather a grinding nature along the ship's bottom.
1046. While you were in the wheelhouse you had the compass in front of you? - Yes.
1047. Could you see ahead at all through the wheelhouse? - I could not see anything.
1048. You would not be able to see the iceberg even if it had been quite clear. Is that what you mean? - No, I could not see it, on no account whatever could I see it.
1049. You said that the Captain rushed out of his room through the wheelhouse to the bridge? - Yes.
1050. Where was his room? I do not know if you can point it out on the model. Was it on the starboard or port side? - The starboard side.
1051. That model is the starboard side. Where was the Captain's room? - About here. (Pointing on the plan.)
1052. Was it quite close to the wheelhouse? - Yes, quite close to the wheelhouse.
1053. We have a plan which will show it. I do not know whether your Lordship has the plan, but we need not stop to consider it very carefully now. It is quite close. (To the Witness.) Then, when you were relieved by Quartermaster Perkis, what did you do? Did you get an order first of all? - Yes, orders to carry on, helping to get a collapsible boat uncovered - getting the cover off a collapsible boat.
1054. Carry on and get the cover off the collapsible boat? - On the port side.
1055. Who gave you that order? - I think it was the Chief Officer, Mr. Wilde, or Mr. Lightoller, I am not sure which.
1056. Had you any station on the boats? - Yes.
1057. What boat were you stationed to? - I think it was one of the emergency boats.
1058. Do not you know which? - No; we never had any boat drill while we were there.
1059. There are only two emergency boats, one on the starboard and one on the port side? - Yes.
1060. But you were stationed to an emergency boat. You do not know whether it was port or starboard. Is that it? - There were two Quartermasters with their names specially picked out for those two boats, but I was not told off to anyone of them. I never went to either one of them for any drill.
1061. That is not quite what I want to know whether you went to drill. I will ask you about that directly. What I want to know is whether you had any station to which you were to go? - Not that I am aware of, no.
      The Commissioner: I am getting a little in confusion. I have written down, "I was stationed to one of the emergency boats."
      The Attorney-General: He did say so, my Lord.
1062. (The Commissioner.) Am I to understand you were not stationed to any boat? - I had no proper station. I had no station to go to on paper that I was notified where to go on a station.
1063. What did you mean by saying just now, "I was stationed to one of the emergency boats"? - One of the Quartermasters was at the wheel at that particular time and it would be my duty to go there and fill his vacancy during his absence at the wheel.
1064. (The Attorney-General.) It would be the duty of the two Quartermasters to go to the two emergency boats. Is that right? - Yes.
1065. What he means is that if the Quartermaster was on duty, and somebody had to go to the emergency boat it would be his duty to act as one of those Quartermasters. Is that right? - Yes.
1066. But to which of the two boats, whether it was port or starboard there were no orders? - No orders.
1067. Did you see the lists of the stations for the boats on board? - No.
1068. If I understand you correctly, your name would not be on the list, would it? - Not that I am aware of.
1069. You would not have any cause to look at the list for yourself? - I have never seen any list put up anywhere. The usual thing is to have the fire and boat stations marked on a sheet of paper and put up for everyone to see, but I did not see it.
1070. (The Commissioner.) I should like to have this clear. Would your name be on such list? - Certainly, my Lord, in boat stations.
      1. I rather understood you to suggest that it would not.
1071. (The Attorney-General.) I did. I understood from him that it would not, because it would depend whether he was on duty or not. (To the Witness.) I understood you to say that you would not expect to find your name on the list of stations. Is that right? - No, Sir. I did not mean that at all.
1072. Tell us what you mean about it. - In every ship that I have been in we always have had every Quartermaster, or whatever he may be, seaman, fireman, steward, always have their boat stations, and they would have a proper muster every Saturday or whenever it may be - it lies at the Captain's discretion whenever he liked to give us a drill, and everybody is mustered in front of their boats, but I never saw it like that on the "Titanic."

Page 43

1073. That means you never saw a muster? - No.
1074. Where did you join the "Titanic"? - Southampton.
1075. How long before the vessel sailed? - Four days.
1076. Do you remember the day of the week that you went on board of her? - I think the first day when we dressed ship.
1077. What day was that, do you remember? - I think it was Good Friday, holiday time.
1078. Then from that time until the collision occurred had you any boat drill at all? - I did not see any; they might have had when it was my duty off. We Quartermasters were keeping gangways in harbour.
1079. You, personally, had not had any; is that right? - That is quite right.
1080. Whether the others had or not you do not know? - That is right.
1081. They might have had without your knowing it? - That is right.
1082. Now will you come back to the order that you got to remove the cover of one of the boats? - Yes.
1083. It was the cover of one of the collapsible boats on the port side? - Yes.
1084. Did you do that? - I did, Sir.
1085. Did you finish that job? - Yes.
1086. Did you clear her, taking away all the coverings? - I was ordered away to one of the next lifeboats before I had time to ship the rudder, and so on.
1087. You had the cover off? - I had the cover off and got the boat's grips off.
1088. And then you were ordered to another boat? - Yes.
1089. Who ordered you to another boat? - Mr. Lightoller.
1090. And to what boat? - No. 6 boat.
1091. Is that a lifeboat on the port side? - Yes.
1092. It would be the third on the port side from forward, would it not? - I do not know whether it was the second or third boat. It was one of the two.
1093. We have been told it was the third. When you got to No. 6 lifeboat was that all ready? - Yes. She was swung out then.
1094. Did you take passengers on board? - Yes.
1095. When you got to her were there any passengers on board? - No.
1096. She had only been swung out ready? - That is all.
1097. And then what happened - who was giving orders then? - Mr. Lightoller was in charge of the port side.
1098. Did you hear any order given? - Yes, I heard the captain say, "Women and children first," and the officer repeated the words from the captain.
1099. "Women and children first"? - Yes.
1100. (The Commissioner.) Where was the captain? - Just standing by the collapsible boat by the officers' quarters between the officers' quarters and the collapsible boat.
1101. Will you just show us where that is on the model? - Yes, here, in the centre; the officers' quarters were here, and the collapsible boat under the emergency boat (pointing on the model.)
1102. Are you speaking of the port side? - Yes.
1103. You have indicated to us the corresponding point on the model on the starboard side? - Yes.
1104. Was No. 6 boat that you went to a boat which was on the deck where the first-class cabins were? - Yes.
1105. The first-class promenade? - Yes.
1106. How many people did you take on board? - Forty-two all told.
1107. First of all, will you tell me, how many crew there were besides yourself? - One seaman, Sir.
1108. And how many passengers? - Forty passengers.
1109. How many men passengers? - One man and one boy.
1110. And the rest were ladies? - Yes.
1111. Could you tell at all whether they were first, second, or third-class passengers? - Nearly all first and second-class, I think, Sir.
1112. Do you know the name of the one man passenger? - Yes, Sir.
1113. What is it? - Major Pewan. [Peuchan.]
1114. P-e-w-a-n - is that it? - Yes, I think it was spelt something like that.
1115. Very well, that is near enough. Was there room for any more in that lifeboat? - The boat seemed pretty full, Sir, but from what I am given to understand she could carry five or six more. She seemed pretty well full up with the ladies with their lifebelts on, scattered about the boat.
1116. Were all the lifeboats the same size? - I am not quite certain, Sir; I do not think they were. Some were smaller than others.
      The Commissioner: How is that?
      The Attorney-General: According to what we make out, they are all the same size except, of course, the two emergency boats. I asked him about the lifeboats. We make out that they are all the same as I understand it. The fourteen boats would all be the same.
      The Commissioner: All of them are marked on the plan as 30 feet?
      The Attorney-General: Yes, that is so.
      The Commissioner: They would all have the same beam?
      Sir Robert Finlay: I am told they are all the same size except the emergency boat.
1117. (The Attorney-General.) That is just what I stated. (To the Witness.) The lifeboats, I suppose, were bigger than the two emergency boats? - Oh, yes, Sir.
      The Commissioner: Beauchamp said that on board his boat there were 60 or 70 persons.
      The Attorney-General: He did.
      The Commissioner: And I understand this Witness says there were 42 in his boat.
      The Attorney-General: Yes, we will get that from some other Witness. We can only get as far as that from this one. According to Scarrott's evidence there were about 60 in his boat all told. In this one we have only got 42.
      The Commissioner: Then I took a wrong note of it.
      1. (The Attorney-General.) I think your Lordship will find that that is right - just about 60. (To the Witness.) According to what we have heard these lifeboats were all about the same size. If you only had 42 on board all told, there was room for something like 20 more. Did you notice that at all? - Well, I do not think she would have held 20 more, Sir. That was nothing to do with me. That was the officer's orders.
1118. Who gave orders for her to be pushed off? - The Second Officer, Mr. Lightoller, ordered the boat to be lowered away.
1119. Where was he when he gave that order? - Right abreast of the boat, Sir.
1120. On deck? - Yes, on the promenade deck.
1121. Then she was lowered away? - Yes.
1122. You were in her? - Yes, Sir.
1123. Who was in charge of the boat? - I was.
1124. Were there any other passengers on the deck so far as you could see when you got the order to lower away - when the order was given to lower away? - Yes, there were some passengers there.
1125. Women? - I think there were one or two women, Sir, besides gentlemen as well. They felt half inclined - they did not care about getting into the boat.
1126. Who felt half inclined? - Why, the passengers, Sir.
1127. They did not like getting into the boat? - They did not like to get into the small boat - no.
1128. Who is "they" that you are speaking of? - Why, the passengers that were standing there on the deck that I heard talking.
1129. Do you know how you came to have the one man passenger and a boy in the boat? - I do not know how the man passenger got in the boat at all, Sir - nor the boy.
1130. You do not know how they got in? - No, Sir.

Page 44

1131. You did not see them get in? - No, Sir.
1132. Did you see they were in when the boat was lowered? - Just after we got away from the ship I did.
1133. But not till then? - No.
1134. As I understand it, when you saw the boat lowered you thought there were only ladies in the boat and yourself and another seaman. Is that right? - Yes, Sir.
1135. Who was the other seaman? - Seaman Fleet.
1136. That is one of the look-out men that we have heard about? - Yes.
1137. When did you count the number of ladies on board? - I counted them as near as I could when we got down to the "Carpathia," just before we got aboard the "Carpathia."
1138. Not till then? - No.
1139. (The Commissioner.) That was hours afterwards? - Yes, Sir.
1140. (The Attorney-General.) You may as well tell us - when did you get to the "Carpathia"? - As near as I can tell you about 7 o'clock. We were the last boat to get alongside.
      [The Attorney-General] That does not tell me anything, but I will take the statement for the moment.
      The Commissioner: It does not fit in with the other evidence.
1141. (The Attorney-General.) It depends on clocks, and so on. There is some difficulty in arriving at the time. (To the Witness.) When the order was given to lower away, did you hear any question asked as to whether there were any others ready to go on the boat? Did you hear any such question as that? - I do not remember, Sir.
1142. (The Commissioner.) I think you will remember if you think about it? - No, I do not remember, my Lord.
1143. Do you know what you were asked? - Yes, my Lord.
1144. What were you asked? - If there was any more passengers asked to get on board before the boat was lowered away.
1145. Do you mean to tell me that you do not remember whether the people waiting on deck were asked to get into your boat. You know there was room in it; there was room in your boat. Was no one asked of those people who were standing about on deck if they were going into the boat? - Oh, yes, my Lord. The officer asked for them to get into the boat then - women and children first.
1146. And then what did they say - those that remained behind? - They were talking between themselves; they would rather stay aboard of the ship.
1147. (The Attorney-General.) Now let us go back for a moment. You told us he asked to go on board - the women and children first. That was the first order to passengers to get into the boat? - Yes.
1148. Then, as I understand you, a number did get into the boat? - Yes.
1149. Then your boat was not full? - The Second Officer would not allow any more in my boat.
1150. Did you hear the Second Officer give any order? - I heard the Second Officer say; "Lower the boat away," yes, Sir.
1151. You said just now that he would not allow any more people to get into your boat. Did you see anybody wanting to get into your boat who was stopped? - No, Sir.
1152. But there were people there then, I suppose? - Plenty of men there.
1153. Did he stop them? - He did not.
1154. I do not understand what you mean by saying he would not allow any more to get into the boat. How do you know that? - Because the boat was lowered away. There was enough people in the boat.
1155. Did he say that? - I think so, as much as I can remember.
1156. What do you remember he said? - I think he said, "Lower away."
1157. Did you hear anything said at all about, "There is enough people in the boat"? - I do not hardly remember, Sir.
1158. What! You can hardly remember? You said just now you thought "there was enough people in the boat" - I do not care about the particular words. Did you hear anything like that said? - I do not remember, Sir - only "Lower away the boat." That is all I remember.
1159. Then, when the boat was lowered, did you have any order as to what you were to do? - Yes, Sir.
1160. Who gave it to you? - Mr. Lightoller, the Second Officer.
1161. What was the order? - To pull for that light - to steer for that light.
1162. What light? - There was a light about two points on the port bow, about five miles away, I should judge.
1163. You are speaking now of the time that the order was given to lower the boat? - I am speaking now of the time when the boat was going to be lowered away.
1164. Then you got the order from Mr. Lightoller, the Second Officer, to steer for a vessel which was two points on the port bow, or, rather, I said for a vessel, you said for a light; it is the same thing? - Yes.
1165. To steer for a light which was on the port bow? - That is right, Sir.
      The Commissioner: A light two points off.
1166. (The Attorney-General.) Yes, on the port bow, and he also said about five miles distance. That is right, is it not? - Yes, Sir.
1167. When you had first seen that light two points on the port bow? - While we were in the boat, Sir, taking the passengers on board. That was the order then, to steer for that light.
1168. (The Commissioner.) Do listen to the question. When had you first seen that light? - During the time that I was standing in the lifeboat taking the passengers into the lifeboat, my Lord.
1169. (The Attorney-General.) When you looked and saw this light, could you tell what it was at all? - No. We surmised it to be a steamboat.
1170. As I understand, you saw that light for the first time when you were standing in the boat before the order was given to lower away? - Yes, Sir.
1171. Then, when you got down to the water you started rowing away, I suppose, did you? - Yes, Sir.
1172. Who rowed? - When we got half way down the boat she was hanging at an angle, and I stopped them from above from lowering by shouting to the Second Officer to steady forward and lower away a bit astern, and I told him I had only one seaman in the boat.
1173. And then - tell us what happened. - This major here was in the boat. When I looked around I saw the major.
1174. Was that while the boat was being lowered? - When the boat was down in the water, just before we let go of the falls.
1175. How came you to see him? - He was standing up there, standing up in the bows of her.
1176. The bows of the boat? - Yes.
1177. Was there any difficulty in freeing her from the falls? - No, Sir.
1178. Then, when you got free of the falls you started rowing? - Yes, Sir.
1179. What I was asking you was who rowed - how many of you rowed? - The sailor and the major and two or three of the ladies put out oars.
1180. What did you do? - Steered for the light, Sir.
1181. How far did you go? - About a mile, I suppose.
1182. A mile from the ship in the direction of the light, two points on the port bow. Is that right? - Yes, Sir.
1183. Could you tell at all whether the light was moving or whether it was still? - The light was moving, gradually disappearing. We did not seem to get no nearer to it.
1184. As I understand you, it seemed to get further away from you? - Yes, Sir.

Page 45

1185. Could you tell us how many boats had got away before you? - I think there were two on the port side, but how many on the starboard side I could not tell you.
1186. On the port side you think there were two before you? - Yes, Sir.
1187. Did any of the other boats travel in the same direction that you took? - Yes, Sir, four or five of us there altogether.
1188. When you say "altogether" you mean close to each other - you do not mean lashed together? - No, close together, going away to this light.
1189. When you stopped rowing were there any of these boats near you? - One right alongside of us, Sir.
1190. Do you know who was in charge of that? - Yes, the Master-at-Arms, Mr. Bailey.
1191. What sort of a night was it? - It seemed a clear night, a starlight night.
1192. And calm, as we have been told - very calm? - It was calm, Sir, till about three o'clock in the morning, when it came on choppy, a little breeze sprung up.
1193. Nothing to speak of, was it? - No, Sir; but quite enough for a small boat.
1194. When you were rowing away did you see the "Titanic" still? - Yes, I saw the lights of the "Titanic."
1195. You saw the lights of the "Titanic"; did you see any signals sent up by her? - Yes, and before I left, Sir.
1196. What? - Rockets.
1197. Before you left and after you left? - Yes, Sir.
1198. Can you tell us what colour rockets? - I did not take no particular notice of the colour, Sir. Some were green, some were red, and some were blue - all kinds of colours - and some white, Sir. I think, if I remember rightly, they were blue.
      The Commissioner: Have these colours a different significance?
      The Attorney-General: My Lord, that is what I am trying to ascertain. There is a special reason for wanting to know it. Has your Lordship got the "Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea"? Is that what you are looking at?
      The Commissioner: Yes, the last page.
      The Attorney-General: I am much obliged. That is what I was looking at myself.
      The Commissioner: "At night."
1199. (The Attorney-General.) Yes. That is Article 31, dealing with distress signals: "When a vessel is in distress and requires assistance from other vessels or from the shore, the following shall be the signals to be used or displayed by her, either together or separately"; and then, as your Lordship pointed out, "At night" No. 3 is "Rockets or shells, throwing stars of any colour or description, fired one at a time, at short intervals." That is it. (To the Witness.) Will you tell me how long it was before you left the vessel that you saw rockets sent up? - I could not give you no estimate of time, because by the time I come from the wheel I was there working about the boat.
1200. It would be after you came from the wheel, because you could not see till then? - Yes, Sir. I could not give you no time for that.
1201. Had it been going on any time before you left the vessel? - No, not very long, Sir, I should not think it would be. It could not have been, in fact, because I was working there not more than a quarter of an hour or 20 minutes, I suppose, before I was sent away in the boat.
1202. When you came first of all to remove the cover of the collapsible boat, did you see any then? - No, not at that time, I didn't.
1203. It was only when you went to No. 6 lifeboat; is that right? - Yes.
1204. You saw it then? - Yes.
1205. Do you remember how many boats got on board the "Carpathia"? - No, Sir, I do not.
      The Commissioner: Are you leaving this point now?
1206. (The Attorney-General.) No; I was trying to get his mind to a particular question I wanted to put to him. (To the Witness.) You say you saw the rockets being fired as you were rowing? - Yes.
1207. Did that continue during all the time? - It continued for about half an hour, I suppose, after we left the ship, as near as I can tell you. I never had no time in the boat; I am only guessing the time.
1208. That is your best estimate? - Yes, Sir.
1209. Did you see the "Titanic" go down? - No, Sir.
1210. Did you see her lights? - The last time I looked I saw her lights.
1211. Was your back to her then? - Yes. I was steering away from her then.
1212. You were steering? - Yes.
1213. The last time you looked you saw the lights, and then you did not see them any more? - No, Sir.
1214. When you had got about a mile's distance away, did you see the "Titanic" then? - Yes, Sir; I saw the lights.
1215. Were you facing her then? - No, Sir, going away from the ship all the time.
1216. I thought you stopped when you got about a mile's distance? - It was about that time when we did not see the lights - when me and Bailey made our boats fast side by side.
1217. And you did not see the lights of the "Titanic" any more, is that what you mean? - Yes, Sir. I did not see the lights of the "Titanic" again after that.
1218. Let me see if I understand the story. You rowed away from the "Titanic," and when you looked round you saw the lights there. As you were being rowed away from the "Titanic" you saw her lights? - Yes.
1219. When you got about a mile's distance you stopped; and then when you looked you did not see the lights any more; is that right? - That is quite right, Sir.
1220. That is all you can tell us about what happened? - Yes.
1221. Is that right? - That is all, Sir.
1222. Did you hear any explosion? - Well, no, Sir.
1223. What does that mean, "Well no"? - Well, not that I could say that I heard any explosion.
1224. But you heard something - is that it? What is in your mind about it? - I do not think I heard any explosion.
      The Attorney-General: Do you mean you have heard other people talking of it; is that what you mean?
      The Commissioner: That is what he means.
1225. (The Attorney-General.) Is that what you mean? - No, I do not.
1226. (The Commissioner.) Do you mean to say you have not heard it said that there were explosions before the boat went down? - Yes, my Lord. I have heard those questions repeated and talked about, but I never heard them myself.
1227. (The Attorney-General.) Now, we understand what you mean. Did you look in your boat for a light? - I had a light served out to me before I left the ship.
1228. Who served it? - A lamp-trimmer, Sir.
1229. Do you remember his name? - No, I do not know his name - a stranger.
1230. And you took it on board with you? - Yes, Sir.
1231. Did you hear an order given to the lamp-trimmer to bring a light, or did he give you the light without your hearing an order? - I never heard any orders. I see him coming along with the lights, and he had orders to give me one of them.
1232. Orders from whom? - From Mr. Lightoller, the officer.
1233. Did he have any other lanterns with him? - Yes, Sir, several.
1234. Of the same kind that you had? - Yes, Sir.
1235. And he served you out one as he passed? - Yes, Sir.
1236. And then went along as far as you could see to the other boats: Is that right? - Yes, Sir.
1237. How many oars had you on board? - I do not know; there was not much time for counting the oars; I did not think much about the oars.
1238. But you had time afterwards? - I did not count them, Sir; I do not know.
1239. How many did you see used? - Four.

Page 46

1240. Four altogether? - But then there was more in the boat than that.
1241. Very well, I understand. Were there any biscuits on board? - Not that I am aware of, Sir.
1242. Did you look for them? - No, Sir.
1243. Then you cannot say? - No.
1244. Was there water on board? - Yes, Sir, there was a breaker of water.
1245. A breaker with water in it? - Yes, Sir.

The Commissioner: What is a "breaker," - a can?
1246. (The Attorney-General.) I understand it is a cask that shape (showing). (To the Witness.) It is a breaker into which you put the water? - A breaker with a bung-hole to it, just like the top of this water-bottle. There was no compass, Sir, and no biscuits.
1247. (The Commissioner.) I thought you said you did not look for the biscuits? - I understood the other two men to say there was no biscuits, my Lord.
1248. (The Attorney-General.) So far as you are concerned you did not look, and so far as you know there were none - that is as I understand it? - Yes.
1249. Did you tell anybody to look? - No, Sir.
1250. You were in charge? - No, Sir, not at that time.
1251. But at any time before you got on to the "Carpathia"? - I heard them say that there was no biscuits when we got to the "Carpathia."
1252. When you got to the "Carpathia"? - When we got to the "Carpathia." When we were aboard the "Carpathia."
1253. Did you look yourself then? - No, I did not look myself then.
1254. You said something about the compass; did you look for a compass? - Yes, Sir.
1255. Was there one? - No, Sir.
1256. Had you a mast and sail on board? - That was taken out of the boat before the boat was launched.
1257. By whom? - By the men that were working about in the boat.
1258. You mean the men uncovering the boat? - The men that were helping to get it out. When the boat was being lowered down out of the rails the passengers took them and laid them on the deck.
1259. When you started, did you start from the ship's side without any mast or sail? - Yes, Sir.
1260. But there had been a mast and sail in the boat which had been removed before she was launched, is that it? - Yes, Sir.
1261. Does that mean that in the confusion the mast and sail were not taken - is that what you mean, or were any orders given? - No, Sir. They were passed out of the boat to make room, I think.
1262. At any rate, they were passed out of the boat and not passed back into the boat? - Yes.
1263. But you did not hear any special order given about it? - No, Sir.
1264. Now about the boats on the "Carpathia"; were the boats taken on board the "Carpathia"? - Some were. Mine was not. Mine was cut adrift.
1265. Some were taken on board. They were all taken to the "Carpathia," and then the boat was set adrift - was that it? - Yes.
1266. (The Commissioner.) Do you know how many lifeboats were taken on the "Carpathia"? -I think about 13, my Lord.
1267. Then there were not many cut adrift? - I think there was about two cut adrift, my Lord.
1268. (The Attorney-General.) Do you know anything about the use of glasses for the look-out? Have you acted as look-out at all? - Well, I have been on the look-out, Sir, in mail boats, but not in the White Star Line.
1269. In what mail boats have you been on the look-out? - Troopships chiefly, Sir, and different kinds of vessels.
1270. Have you been on any liners? - Yes, Sir.
1271. For what companies? - The Union-Castle and the British India.
1272. When you were on those vessels were glasses used by the look-out? - I do not know, Sir. I was never on the look-out on those ships. I was quartermaster always.
1273. You cannot tell me. You do not know whether there were or not? - No, Sir.
1274. And you do not know whether there were on the White Star Line or not? - No.
      The Commissioner: I want to know if this man can tell me whether the rockets which were sent up would be visible to this supposed ship which was five miles away.
1275. (The Attorney-General.) You told us, you know, that rockets were sent up to a ship that was, according to your view, two points on the port bow about five miles away? - Yes.
1276. Would the rockets that were sent up from the "Titanic" be seen by a vessel five miles away? - Quite easily, Sir.
1277. Did you see any answer - any answering signal? What I want to know is this: Did you see any rockets from any other vessel? - No, Sir.

Examined by MR. SCANLAN.

1278. I think you have told his Lordship that the night was calm? - Yes.
1279. Was the whole of the Sunday a calm day? - As far as I can remember there was a little breeze in the afternoon.
1280. A moderately calm day, it was? - Yes.
1281. Considering that the night was calm, would it have been possible if the "Titanic" had been provided with sufficient lifeboats to have taken safely away from her after the collision every passenger and every member of the crew? - Well, I think so, Sir.
1282. You have told us that you had only one sailor, in addition to yourself, in this lifeboat? - That is all, Sir.
1283. How many sailors do you consider would be necessary in order properly to man and navigate this lifeboat? - At least four besides the man that is steering the boat - five.
1284. Would that number have been sufficient even though the sea had been stormy? - No, Sir. In stormy weather you require more men. It is all according to the weather.
1285. (The Commissioner.) Will you tell me this: Would the lifeboats, in your opinion, have been of any use at all if there had been a rough sea? - I am sure they would not, my Lord.
1286. They would not? - No.
1287. (Mr. Scanlan.) Would the utility of the lifeboats depend to some extent on the proximity to you of any rescuing ship? - I beg pardon; I did not quite follow you; Sir.
      The Commissioner: That is not a question which it is necessary to ask.
      Mr. Scanlan: Even in a rough sea is it not possible with good seamanship to keep a lifeboat afloat?
      The Commissioner: Will you ask him first whether it is possible or easy to get it afloat to begin with.
1288. (Mr. Scanlan.) In a rough sea, when you have some wind, is it possible - is it easy (of course it is more difficult) to launch a lifeboat? - Well, yes, it is very difficult in lowering and launching a lifeboat in strong weather or strong winds - heavy sea.
      Mr. Scanlan: Is it possible even in a heavy sea for qualified seamen, able-bodied seamen, to launch, man, and navigate a lifeboat?
1289. (The Commissioner.) Had you ever had to do it? - Well, not in big ships, I have not, Sir.
1290. What was the fall from the boat deck to the water? - About 65 ft., my Lord.
1291. (Mr. Scanlan.) You say that your boat had a light. I think you stated that you came close beside four of the other lifeboats? - Yes, Sir.
1292. Was there a light in any of those? - The one that we tied up to - Mr. Bailey's - had no light because we were talking to him. He came alongside of us.
1293. Were you sufficiently near the other two or three boats to observe whether or not they had lights? - Oh, yes. We kept on showing our lights. The boats that had lights kept on showing their lights. Everybody did not have a light.

Page 47

1294. While you were in the deck-house engaged at the wheel, did you learn from any of the officers whether warning had been communicated to the "Titanic" of the presence of icebergs? - The only thing I knew about ice at all was the order I received for the carpenter from the second officer.
1295. Was anything said to you about the reporting of icebergs? - No, Sir.
1296. Is it usual on board liners in circumstances of danger to double the watches - the look-out? - That is always so, Sir.
1297. Had the watch been doubled or augmented - increased in any way - on this occasion? - Not that I am aware of. They do not double the watches on the bridge, where there are three officers on the bridge, two junior officers taking eight-bell watches, and the senior officer taking command of the bridge.
1298. (The Commissioner.) Do they double that watch? - No, Sir.
1299. (Mr. Scanlan.) What watches do they double? - In ships where they are not manned with so many officers, and when they are nearing the shore in foggy weather they might double the watches.
1300. Is it usual in circumstances of danger to station a watchman at the bows - a look-out man? - I cannot say. He cannot see so well as the man can see in the crow's-nest.
1301. I am asking you, is it usual or not? - In some ships, Sir, they do station a man there.
1302. (The Commissioner.) As well as in the crow's-nest? - I have not seen that, my Lord - not a man stationed forward and stationed in the crow's-nest, too.
1303. (Mr. Scanlan.) If a watchman was stationed at the bow he would be considerably nearer the water than the man in the crow's-nest? - Yes, that is so, Sir.
1304. Would not a watchman stationed there with glasses have a better opportunity of detecting an iceberg ahead than a man in the crow's-nest? - I do not think he would have so good a chance myself, Sir.
1305. On this occasion there was not a watchman or a look-out man on the bows? - Not that I am aware of, Sir.
      The Commissioner: Are your instructions, Mr. Scanlan, that it is the practice on large liners to put a man in the bow to watch?
      Mr. Scanlan: Yes, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: From whom do you get such instructions?
      Mr. Scanlan: The instructions I get are from the Seaman's and Fireman's Union, my Lord, and from officials of that Union.
1306. (The Commissioner.) Have you ever seen a man in the bow, when there are men in the crow's-nest? - Never, my Lord.
1307. Did you ever hear of such a thing? - Never, my Lord.
1308. (Mr. Scanlan.) Besides you there were six other quartermasters? - Five others besides me.
1309. Six quartermasters in all. Is it usual when the order for drilling is given and the order for crews of the lifeboats, to station a quartermaster to a particular boat? - Yes. In the case of an emergency and a boat being launched the quartermaster not at the wheel would be the likely man to be sent with the boat with the officer in charge.
1310. I want to ask you a question about boat drill. When you have boat drill on the ships you have been sailing on, is it the practice for the seamen and the firemen and the stewards to muster on deck and take their stations in the places that they have to go to if an accident happened? - Always, Sir.
1311. And is it your evidence that on this occasion this was not done? - Not that I remember, Sir. It might have been done, but not to my knowledge.
1312. Had there been any training given to the seamen to your knowledge in the launching and manning of the "Englehardt" collapsible boats? - Not that I am aware of.
1313. Are they as easy to launch as the ordinary lifeboat? - No, they are a little more difficult, Sir, because those boats are swung in. You have to get the boats out, Sir.

Examined by Mr. HOLMES.

1314. You were given the order to hard-a-starboard? - Yes.
1315. Was that the only order you had as to the helm? - Yes.
      Mr. Holmes: Because, if your Lordship will remember, the evidence of the Witness Scarrott on Friday was quite the contrary, when he came up on deck.
      The Commissioner: What did he say?
      Mr. Holmes: He said that the ship appeared to be under a port helm, and appeared to be going around the iceberg towards the starboard side.
      The Commissioner: Did he say so?
      The Attorney-General: Yes, I think so.
1316. (Mr. Holmes.) It is Question 354. (To the Witness.) She never was under a port helm? - She did not come on the port helm, Sir - on the starboard helm.
1317. You said that after you left the "Titanic" the boats that had lights were showing them to each other? - Yes.
1318. Can you say how many boats you saw lights in? - No; I did not count them.
1319. Were there two, or three, or four? - Five or six of us.
1320. Five or six other boats had lights as well as yourself? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. LEWIS.

1321. Had you ever crossed the Atlantic before? - This was my first time in the North Atlantic, Sir.
1322. So that you had no idea as to the course, whether it was the usual course or not? - No.
1323. With regard to the captain giving an order to the carpenter, did the carpenter return? - I do not know, Sir.
1324. Have you had any experience as a quartermaster? How many able men would be required to successfully man a lifeboat the size of the one you were in? - For drill purposes they take 10 to 12 men.
1325. I mean under circumstances like these that you have been explaining? - They take about 4, Sir, besides somebody in charge to steer the boat.
1326. You think it would require at least 4 men and someone in charge to look after her properly? - Yes, Sir.
1327. Can you tell me whether any steps were taken to prevent passengers approaching the boat? - Steps were taken as regards the male passengers. They had to stand back and let the women and children get in the boats first. That was the order, Sir.
1328. What method was adopted to see to that? - All the officers had revolvers, as far as I am aware of, Sir.
1329. Did you observe any ropes drawn across the deck in any way? - Not that I am aware of. I never went to the aft side of the bridge, scarcely, from the boat I was stationed in.
1330. These revolvers - were they used at all? - I heard several reports, Sir, but, as regards anything else, I do not know.
1331. You simply heard? - I heard the reports of the revolvers - yes, Sir.
1332. You would not have seen the whole of the deck? - No, I assisted in one boat, and my own boat that I was in.

Page 48

1333. You would not have seen the whole of the deck? - No.
1334. When you left the ship, what position was she in? Was she well down? - Yes, the ship was well down by the head - well down by the bow, Sir.
1335. Had you any knowledge at all as to wireless messages having been sent? - No.
1336. No knowledge whatever? - No, Sir.

Further examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

1337. There are two or three questions that I should like to ask this Witness before my friend, Sir Robert Finlay, or Mr. Laing examines him. I am now going to deal with some questions which I see were put to him in America, because we shall have to call another Witness later on, and as this Witness may not be here then, he should be asked them now. You were examined before the Commission in America - you remember that? - Yes.
1338. Did you say that you started for the light which you expected to be that of a fishing schooner? - I said that, Sir. Yes, I did say that.
1339. You told us here it was a steamer; I see that this is what you said there? - We expected it to be a steamer from the ship, but when I got into the boat and could not get nearer to it, and being calm weather, and then we expected it to be a fishing boat, a cod banger, as we call it.
      The Commissioner: You led us to suppose that you thought at the time it was a steamer?
1340. (The Attorney-General.) I must point out to you that you said she was disappearing gradually as you were getting towards her? - So she was.
1341. Did you borrow a fireman from one of the other boats to help you to row? - Yes, that was in the morning part, to row back to the "Carpathia."
1342. Did you say this? "We borrowed a fireman from one of the other boats to help us to row, but we got no nearer the light"? - No, I do not remember saying that. I remember when I got this fireman out of Mr. Bailey's boat. It was to pull back to the ship. In fact I know we pulled back to the ship immediately I got him aboard, because all the other boats were going ahead of us showing us their lights.
1343. Were you at the tiller through the night? - I was, all the night.
1344. It was very cold? - Bitter cold.
1345. Did you hear cries of distress? - Faintly; yes, Sir.
1346. For several minutes? - I could not say several minutes, for a minute or two.
1347. Did you answer to the question: "Did you hear cries of distress"? Answer, "Yes, for several minutes"? - I think I said for two or three minutes. I do not think I said for several minutes.
1348. "Some men in the boat said they were the cries of people in the other boats signalling. I suppose they said that so as not to alarm the women." You said that? - Yes.
1349. Did you go in the direction of these cries of distress? - We had no compass in the boat and I did not know what direction to take. If I had a compass to know what course I could take from the ship, I should know what course to take, but I did not know what course to go upon.
      The Commissioner: I do not understand you. "I did not know where these cries came from."
1350. (The Attorney-General.) You heard cries of distress, you have told us? - Yes.
1351. Where did they come from? - I suppose from the "Titanic" when the "Titanic" had sunk.
1352. Could not you tell in what direction they were coming? - No, not hardly, Sir.
1353. Not hardly? - No, I could not tell what direction they were coming.
1354. (The Commissioner.) Was this after the "Titanic" had gone down? - After the lights had gone. I did not know whether the "Titanic" was gone down, but the lights had gone away from the ship.
1355. (The Attorney-General.) As I understand, what you told us before was that you saw the "Titanic," that she had her lights burning, you stopped about a mile's distance, and when you got to about a mile's distance you did not see the lights any more? - That is right, Sir.
1356. That is what you tell us? - Yes.
1357. What I want you to tell us is this: how long after that was it, or when was it, that you heard the cries of distress? - I had no time in the boat. I could not tell you hardly what time.
1358. Had you stopped before you heard the cries of distress? - Yes. We were made fast then to the other boat. Me and Bailey was made fast together.
1359. Mr. Bailey's boat? - Yes.
1360. If I understand you correctly, you did not make any attempt to reach the cries of distress, did you? - It was a matter of impossibility; I could not do it.
1361. I want to understand why it was a matter of impossibility? - I only had one sailor in the boat, and I did not know where we were. I had no compass. I judge I was about a mile away the last time I saw the lights.
1362. (The Commissioner.) You had your ears. Could not you hear where these cries came from? - Your Lordship, in the meantime, the boats were yelling one to another as well as showing their lights to try and let each other know whereabouts they were.
1363. I do not understand how a compass would help you to get to the cries? - That is the only thing that would help me, your Lordship.
      The Commissioner: I should have thought your ears would help you better?

Examined by MR. COTTER.

1364. On the day of muster in Southampton, what officer called the names out? - Mr. Murdoch, I think, Sir.
1365. After you had answered your name did he give you any instructions with regard to the boat, fire, or bulkhead door drill? - Not that I am aware of.
1366. He never gave you any? In other ships you have been in you said you have seen the general boat muster? - Yes.
1367. There was none on the "Titanic"? - No.
1368. Now I will take you to the time that she struck and you came out of the wheelhouse. You stated that she took a list to starboard? - Yes.
1369. When you got on deck had she come to a level keel, or had she still a list to starboard? - She still had a list to starboard when I was out on the deck.
1370. Had you any trouble in getting the people into the boat - the women? - Well, not a great deal of trouble, Sir; some seemed to come and some was half-inclined - they seemed rather to prefer to stay, to the best of my knowledge.
      The Attorney-General: May we know who this gentleman represents?
1371. (Mr. Cotter.) I represent the National Union of Stewards. (To the Witness.) When you got on deck you said the boats were slung. How far from a large ship's side is a boat when it is slung from the davits? - About two feet - that is, when the ship is level, when she has no list.
1372. Did any of the women object to step over that gap of two feet, with a drop of 60 feet? - You understand, Sir, that our boat was listed in against the ship's side because the vessel had a list to starboard, and I was on the port side of the ship.
1373. But no women endeavoured to step on board the boat? - Some had to be helped into the boat.
      The Commissioner: And some would not go at all?

Page 49

1374. (Mr. Cotter.) Yes; but I am going to try and point out that some women will object, when boats are slung out, to go on board. (To the Witness.) In your opinion, if you had shipped the women with the boats slung, would it not have been better, and you would have got more women and children in? - I do not know that.
1375. I was just asking you for your opinion. When you were being lowered had you any difficulty in getting the boat away from the ship's side? - Yes, we had to put our hands out several times.
1376. To push it away? - Yes.
1377. That is, through the length of the drop from the upper deck? - Yes, and the list as well.

Examined by MR. LAING.

1378. With regard to the "Cherub" log, where was it put out? - I think it was put out shortly after we left Queenstown.
1379. Is it taken every watch? - It is taken every two hours by the quartermaster when he got on the poop at the time.
1380. What was the reading when you took it? - The reading for the last day had been 45 miles.
1381. That is the calculation. What was the reading on the log? - I do not know the exact reading on the log, Sir.
1382. It would show the distance run from Queenstown, I suppose? - Yes.
1383. And in order to get what you said it was, 45 miles in two hours, you must make a calculation? - No. We took it, you see. We used to take it, we Quartermasters, by the speed the ship was travelling. We used to talk about it ourselves in our cabin.
1384. I want to know what reading you got from this log at 10 o'clock? - I could not tell you.
1385. Unless you knew what it was at eight o'clock you could not make the calculation? - We could only make the calculation by the run for the day. She had been going by the log.

(The Witness withdrew.)

(After a short adjournment.)

WILLIAM LUCAS, Sworn.

The Commissioner: I have since the adjournment received a letter from Mr. Champness, a solicitor, a gentleman who applied to me to appear for one passenger, and I declined to allow him to do so. He now tells me that he is instructed by five altogether, one first-class passenger, one-third-class passenger, another third-class, another third-class, and fourth a third-class, and he wants to appear for those five. He also says he is instructed by seven gentlemen who are constantly in the habit of making Atlantic voyages as passengers, and that they desire to be represented. In addition now I have a number of deceased Irish passengers; I daresay there are forty or fifty of them. Now, it appears to me quite impossible to allow gentlemen who are in the habit of crossing the Atlantic to be represented at all. I do not know where I should get to if I began that. I might as well admit the man in the street who takes an interest in this Inquiry to be represented. But I suggest that the representatives of passengers should consult together and agree upon some committee of passengers first, second, and third, and then if they can do that I shall be glad to have that Committee represented, so that the interests of the passengers may be in somebody's hands.
The Attorney-General: I suggest that you might not see fit to object to representatives of each of the classes appearing. There may be some difference in the point of view taken.
The Commissioner: I should have thought they could all have been entrusted in the hands of one man who would look after the interests of all three classes, but if you think we shall not get into difficulties by these innumerable people being present I shall not raise any objection. I have a strong objection myself to these numerous applications. One of the strangest is this last, in which gentlemen who occasionally or frequently make voyages across the Atlantic should be represented.
The Attorney-General: If your Lordship could see your way to allow a representative of each of the classes to be present I think it would satisfy the demand.
The Commissioner: I do not think so, but if it will, so much the better. Then let the representatives of the first-class, the second-class, and the third-class - there is not a fourth class I hope - each form a Committee, and then they may be represented.
The Attorney-General: If your Lordship pleases.

Examined by Mr. ROWLATT.

1386. Is your name William Lucas? - Yes.
1387. Were you A. B. on the "Titanic"? - Yes.
1388. When did you join her? - Southampton.
1389. What day? - The day of the sailing.
1390. What time of the day did you join her? - I caught her at ten minutes to twelve when all the gangways were up.
1391. When did she sail? - The same day.
1392. Yes, but how long after that; what time? - Well, just after twelve.
1393. You joined the very last thing? - Yes.
1394. And where were you employed on the voyage? - With the watch.
1395. On the deck? - Yes.
1396. What was your watch on the Sunday that she hit the iceberg? What was your watch that afternoon? - We had the first watch. That would have been our watch below.
1397. When did you go off in the evening? - We had the first from four to six, and then our next watch was from eight to twelve.
1398. Therefore it was your watch when the accident happened? - Yes.
1399. Where were you when the collision did occur? - I had just left the mess room.
1400. Where is that on the ship? - Just above the forecastle.
1401. Will you show it us on the model? - Yes, it will be under here (pointing to the model).
1402. Down in the well? - That is right.
1403. Where the mast comes up - forward of the mast? - It would be about there (pointing on the model).
1404. Port or starboard side? - The port side.
1405. What was the weather? - We could not wish for better weather.
1406. Was it cold? - Well, it was.
1407. When did it begin to get cold? - I noticed it Saturday morning.
1408. Did it get colder and colder after that? - Colder and colder, yes.
1409. I suppose you did not think to look at any thermometers or anything of that sort yourself? - No, I only put on an extra jersey.
1410. You were your own thermometer? - Yes.
1411. I see. Did you hear of any ice? - Well, I knew it was knocking about.
1412. Did you hear it talked of or anything of the sort on board? - Only among my own sailor fellows, that is all.
1413. Discussing the question whether there might be ice? - Yes.
1414. Was that because it was so cold that you did that? - Yes.

Page 50

1415. Did you not hear any orders about ice from officers? - No, not at all.
1416. You say you had just come out of the mess room when the collision occurred? - Yes.
1417. What did you hear, how did it sound like to you? - It very nearly sent me off my feet.
1418. A hard shock? - Yes.
1419. Was there a loud sound? - Well, I did not take that particular notice. I went to the fore-well deck and there I saw ice on the deck.
1420. Did you see the iceberg? - No, I did not.
1421. You would be down a little way you would not be able to see over the side? - No, we would have passed it.
1422. Where did you see the ice on the deck? - On the fore-well on the starboard side.
1423. Show me on the model how far forward does the well come? - This is the fore-well deck I am touching now (pointing to the model).
1424. How far forward does the well come before the deck begins? - This is the fore-well; it would be about here; that is where we sleep. There is about six yards difference.
1425. Where was the ice just abaft the mast? - About here, in the centre of the fore-well (pointing on the model).
1426. How much ice was there on the deck there? - I suppose, about a couple of tons.
1427. What colour was it? - It was a darkish white.
1428. What happened then, as far as you know? Whom did you see who came? - The first orders I got was up under the bridge; that would be the boatswain's mate, followed by the boatswain, "All hands up about the boats."
1429. How long was that after the collision do you suppose? - I suppose, about a quarter of an hour.
1430. What had you been doing in the meantime? - I had been playing nap - playing cards.
1431. Were you playing at nap again after the collision? - No.
1432. What were you doing between the time of the collision and the time you had the order about the boats? - Playing nap.
1433. After the collision? - No, not after the collision; before the collision.
1434. When the collision happened you stopped playing nap? - I stopped before the collision, because I was broke.
1435. Then after the collision what did you do? - I went down below to put on my extra jersey.
1436. Did you put on a lifebelt? - No, not at all.
1437. Had you a lifebelt? - I had one, but I would not put it on.
1438. At that time did you think there was any danger? - Not at all.
1439. You say you came on deck and you heard the order, "All hands up to the boats"? - Yes.
1440. Did you obey that order? - I did.
1441. And did you go up on to the boat deck? - Yes.
1442. Where did you go? - The first boat I had anything to do with was No. 2, but that boat was already swung out.
1443. What was your boat? - My boat was No. 1.
1444. Did you know that? - I knew that, yes.
1445. How had you found out? - By the lists that is always put up in all the boats I have been in; in nearly all the White Star boats.
1446. Where was the list put up? - Just above the forecastle.
1447. And you saw it there? - Yes; I saw it.
1448. When did you see it? - I saw it the day after we left Queenstown.
1449. Did you say you had found it in all the White Star boats? - In all that I have been in and I have been in four of them.
1450. You saw it the day after you left Queenstown? - Yes.
1451. Do you know when it was put up first? - Well, they very nearly always put them up so that you can muster on a Sunday.
1452. Can you remember when it was put up on the "Titanic" this time? - Well, I should say on Saturday night.
1453. You saw it when you left Queenstown? - Yes.
1454. (The Commissioner.) You left Southampton on Good Friday, I understand? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: Is not that right?
      The Attorney-General: I am not sure that it is. I think they joined on the Good Friday.
      Mr. Rowlatt: When did you leave Southampton? - It was the next week, was it not?
1455. (Sir Robert Finlay.) It was on the Wednesday following.
      The Witness: It was on the Wednesday, I think.
1456. (Mr. Rowlatt.) You say your boat was No. 1? - Yes, that was my emergency boat. While I was at sea I got told off to two boats.
1457. When you got upon the deck did you go to No. 1? - No, not at that time, I did not.
1458. Where did you go? - I went to the assistance of all the boats there to be swung out from the deck.
1459. This one had not to be swung out? - No, it was already swung out.
1460. That is it, slung outboard already (pointing on the model)? - Yes.
1461. Then you went to the next one, No. 2? - The opposite side, the port side.
1462. Who was in charge of that boat at that time; was any officer there? - The only officers I saw there were Mr. Moody and Mr. Lightoller.
1463. Did they give you any orders? - Yes.
1464. What did they say? - They said "get out the boats," we all got out those boats - before the boats were lowered, before they were swung out.
1465. They had to be uncovered I suppose? - Yes.
1466. And then got out outside the rails? - We took the covers off and slung them inboard.
1467. Did you stay at No. 2 boat? - No.
1468. Where did you go? - To number 4 and number 6, and then I went right aft.
1469. What boats did you go to right aft? - The lifeboat - I mean on the boat deck.
1470. Do you know what number? - Well, No. 16, No. 14.
1471. Right aft on the other side, on the port side? - On the boat deck there, right aft.
1472. That was before anybody got into the boats was it? - That is right.
1473. Do I understand you to say that all the boats were outside before anybody got in? - Before anybody was lowered.
1474. Where did you see the first people get into the boats? - The afterpart of the ship where I first started lowering boats.
1475. What boat was that? - That was number 16, 12.
1476. How many people got into that? - They were not fully manned by a long way.
1477. Not full? - No not full.
1478. Was any order given about filling up? - Yes, but there was not anybody there handy - No women. I was singing out for women myself.
1479. Had you received the order that women were to be put in the boats? - Yes.
1480. Whom did you receive that from? - Mr. Moody, the sixth officer.
1481. Was he there or was he by the falls? - He was near me when I was lowering.
1482. And you called out for women and there were no more? - That is right, Sir.
1483. That was right at the afterend was it? - Yes, the afterend of all.
1484. Do you know where the access from the third-class accommodation comes up? - Well, I never knew my way up myself and I was a sailor on the ship.
1485. I daresay you had never been that way before? - No. I do not think those people had time to go there without directions from somebody; I hardly knew my way there myself.
1486. When you say the way, what do you mean - the way where to? - The boat deck.
1487. You had come up this forward end, had you not? - Yes, the fore end.
1488. I see there is third-class accommodation at both ends of the vessel? - Yes.
1489. Were there third-class passengers here forward? - Yes, they were.

Page 51

1490. Do you know if there were aft too; perhaps you do not know? - Well, I think the general rule is women aft and the men forward.
1491. As far as the third-class passengers forward were concerned they would come up the same way that you went to the boat? - The same way as I went.
1492. How did you get up? What sort of access is there? - You come up about three flights of ladders to get to the promenade deck.
1493. And then from the promenade deck? - And then I have to go up another two flights to get to the boat deck.
1494. Where are they in the ship? - About here. There is a ladder leads up here, and then you go back again and go up the ladder here (pointing on the model).
1495. What sort of ladder? - A wooden ladder.
1496. A gangway ladder? - Yes.
1497. Not a ladder that you can go up hand over hand? - No.
1498. (The Commissioner.) Steps? - Yes.
1499. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did you know what the passengers were on the boat deck - first-class, second-class, or third-class? - The majority first-class.
1500. Along where you were? - Yes.
1501. How many boats did you see filled. How many boats did you take notice of as they were being filled? - About nine.
1502. Could you see whether they were all filled to the full capacity? - They were not all filled.
1503. Why was that? - Because there were no women knocking about.
1504. Was there good order? - Yes, excellent order.
1505. And were the boats that you saw all lowered successfully to the water? - I lowered the majority of the boats on the port side. I never lowered a boat in the water at all; I lowered them about three feet from the water.
1506. But they all got into the water all right? - Yes. Those boats are all fitted with a patent dropping gear. You pull a little lever, and the boats drop without lowering them into the water.
1507. Were you told to help to lower the boats? - I was warned off by Mr. Moody, and to stand by.
1508. How many boats did you help to lower? - About eight.
1509. One after the other? - Yes.
1510. With regard to each of them was there very orderly embarkation of women? - Yes.
1511. Then finally did you go in a boat? - Well, I got in a boat and I got ordered out by Mr. Lightoller. That was the last boat that left.
1512. Then you were ordered out of the boat? - Yes.
1513. Could you see whether the boats were properly equipped with oars and things? - The two boats that I got into afterwards were properly manned with oars.
1514. You said 16 was the last boat, did you not? - No; 16 was the last boat like, the after boat on the port side.
1515. What was the last boat you got in? - The collapsible boat, the port side, inside the emergency boat.
1516. Is that the one you got into? - I got into her and got ordered out.
1517. Who ordered you out? - Mr. Lightoller.
1518. What did you do then? - I went over to the starboard side to see if there was any more boats there. There were no more boats there so I came back and the boat was riding off the deck then. The water was up under the bridge then. The ladies sung out there was no sailor in the boat and no plugs, so I was a sailor and I jumped into the boat.
1519. It was a boat that was on the deck, just explain that? - Just here (pointing to the model).
1520. What boat was that? - A surf boat; they call them collapsible boats.
1521. She was lying on the deck? - Yes.
1522. The sides collapse, do not they? - No, they are three parts clinker boats and about three parts of the gunwale is canvas.
1523. Had the gunwale been pulled up? - Yes.
1524. And made fast? - Yes.
1525. Who had done that? - I assisted in doing that.
1526. Who else? - There were eight more sailors there besides myself just at the time.
1527. At that time you say the water was right up to the place where you were? - The ship was at that angle then (indicating).
1528. (The Commissioner.) And the water up to the bridge? - Yes; the water under the bridge.
1529. (Mr. Rowlatt.) How long was that after the collision? - I should think about an hour and a quarter.
1530. Was it long after all the other boats had gone away? - I should say about a quarter of an hour.
      Mr. Rowlatt: Here is an illustration of these collapsible boats, if you care to look at it, my Lord. It is a very shallow boat. (the same was handed to the Commissioner.)
      The Commissioner: I have seen them.
1531. (Mr. Rowlatt - To the Witness.) You were telling us about this collapsible boat; you assisted to get her out? - Yes.
1532. Now what did you do with her? - I pulled her to the davits.
1533. Did you hook her on the falls? - The same falls used for the emergency boat picked up that boat.
1534. Did you get the falls up again? - Yes, but the water was about 1 1/2 feet then when she was strung up to the davits.
1535. What falls do you say? - The same falls as the emergency boat used.
1536. They had been hauled up again? - Yes.
1537. Did you lower her and get her to the water by these falls? - No, they only required lowering. They were already in the water.
1538. Who got into her? - About forty women.
1539. And what men? - Well, I found three men in the boat afterwards, but I never saw them in the boat when she went away.
1540. Did you go away in that boat? - I went away in that boat.
1541. Who were the other men? Were they seamen? - One-quartermaster and two foreigners in the boat.
1542. (The Commissioner.) What do you mean by foreigners - passengers? - Yes.
1543. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Two foreign passengers? - Yes.
1544. Do you know what class they were? - Well, I should think they were third-class.
1545. Then did you push off from the side? - No.
1546. I mean to row away? - The water was there.
1547. Did you row away? - Yes.
1548. You practically floated off the ship? - Yes.
1549. How far off did you go? - Well it was about 100 yards before the first explosion went. It was a very loud report.
1550. You heard an explosion? - Yes.
1551. Then did you row further off again? - Yes.
1552. How many oars had you? - About eight.
1553. Plenty? - Yes.
1554. How many people had you rowing? - Well, I had to ask a couple of women to get hold of an oar.
1555. How many oars had you out altogether? - About four.
1556. Who was in charge of the boat - who was steering? - There was no rudder there.
1557. No rudder at all? - No, I was in charge of the boat.
1558. Did anybody steer with anything? - No. I kept on changing my oar from port to starboard to keep her away as best I could.
1559. You were doing that? - Yes.
1560. You were in command of the boat? - Yes.
1561. Did you see the "Titanic" sink? - Yes.
1562. How far off were you when she sank? - I suppose about 150 yards.
1563. Then it was not very long after you left her that she did sink? - No.
1564. Had you been rowing all the time? - I was not rowing long before she went down.

Page 52

1565. (The Commissioner.) When you floated in this collapsible boat into the sea were you on the port or the starboard side? - The port side.
1566. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did you see any light? - Well, I did see a light, a faint sidelight of another ship.
1567. Where away? In what direction? - On my port hand it was then.
1568. You saw a light? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: A faint sidelight as I understand.
1569. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Where was it? - Off my port hand as I was in the boat.
1570. Do you mean it was a port light? - Was it a red or a green light? - A red light - a sidelight.
1571. Now in what direction from you was it? That is what I wanted to ask - taking the bow of the "Titanic"? - Taking it from here it would be the starboard side.
1572. Broad on the starboard side? - Yes, from her quarter.
1573. What, astern? - No, as she is left now it would be in that direction.
1574. Right out here? - Yes.
1575. Abaft the beam? - Just the same as she is lying now, on her quarter.
1576. That is where you saw the light? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: Is that where the other man said?
      Mr. Rowlatt: No, he said two points on the port bow. That would be in that direction (indicating), assuming they are speaking of the time when the ship was in the same place.
      The Commissioner: It is possible the "Titanic" had turned, you mean?
1577. (Mr. Rowlatt.) We cannot tell how she was moving. Did you notice whether the "Titanic" moved at all after the collision? - No, I do not think she did.
1578. She lay pointing in the same direction? - Yes.
1579. Did you take any notice of that? You would not notice unless you noticed the stars, I suppose; you would not see, would you? - No.
1580. Did you see any other light beside the red light? - Yes, the steaming light.
1581. You did? - Yes, I saw the sidelights and the steaming light.
1582. You said the sidelight was faint? - Yes, certainly.
1583. Was the other light faint or clear? - You can only see one side.
1584. I know that, but I mean the masthead light? - Yes, clear.
1585. Could you judge at all how far off it was? - It was about eight or nine miles; it was right on the horizon.
1586. Are you speaking of it being on the horizon when you were in the boat? - Yes.
1587. And of course before you left the "Titanic" you were down on the water as you have told us? - Yes.
1588. I want to go back for a moment to get one thing clear. You told us you got into a boat and were ordered out of it? - Yes.
1589. Which boat was that? - That was the collapsible boat.
1590. Is that the same one you went away in? - That is the same one I went away in.
1591. I see - port side? - Yes.
1592. You came back to her afterwards? - I came back to her afterwards.
1593. When the "Titanic" went down did you see wreckage about? - Chairs and spare cupboards like.
1594. And people in the water? - No, I never saw anybody in the water.
1595. Did you go back in your boat? - I transferred all the women from my boat to No. 8 boat because I was frightened of my boat capsizing and going down.
1596. Whose boat was No. 8 boat? - Poingdestre was in charge.
1597. You got all your women out of your boat into No. 8? - Yes.
1598. Then what did you do with your boat? - Poingdestre asked me if I would go in the boat and get hold of an oar and I said yes, and then I went over to the upturned boat where we had picked up 36 from the wreckage.
1599. What upturned boat was this? - This was one of the boats that had got off from the deck where I was assisting before I went away in this collapsible boat.
1600. Was it a collapsible boat? - It was a collapsible boat.
1601. It was upturned? - It was upturned.
1602. Were there people clinging to it? - Yes, 36 on the top of it.
1603. There were two collapsibles on the "Titanic," were there not? - There are four.
1604. These are the two that got off? - Yes.
1605. Now with regard to these 36 people on this upturned boat, what happened to them? - I put them in the boat that I was in.
1606. You took them off? - Yes.
1607. With your collapsible? - No, with this No. 8 boat.
1608. What happened to your collapsible? - I let that go with the three men in it.
1609. Where did they go? - Well, they hung on to the remainder and were knocking round - tied themselves together afterwards.
1610. I just want to get it quite clear. You went with this collapsible boat alongside No. 8? - Transferred the women into No. 8 because I was frightened the boat was going down.
1611. I daresay you were rather crowded, were you? - Yes, we were; the gunwales were under water.
1612. You got them out? - Yes.
1613. You went in No. 8 yourself? - Yes.
1614. Now, was anybody left in the collapsible? - Yes, three men - a quartermaster and two men.
1615. What did they do? - They stopped there till they were picked up.
1616. By the "Carpathia"? - Yes.
1617. Did they go to see if they could save any people out of the water? - Yes, but they could not arrive there because our boat had two or three sailors in it and we got in there before them.
1618. They went, and you went back towards the scene of the wreck? - Yes.
1619. Now, you picked up 36 people off an upturned boat? - Yes.
1620. Did you pick up anyone else in No. 8? - No.
1621. Were there any other people to be picked up? - Well, there were people to be picked up, but they were dead before we got there.
1622. I suppose it took you some time to get there, did it? - Well, say about a quarter of an hour.
1623. How many men had you rowing in No. 8? - Four.
      The Commissioner: Will you ask him what his boat load was?
1624. (Mr. Rowlatt.) I was going to ask him that. (To the Witness.) When you got into No. 8 how many people were in altogether, after you got the 36 people out of the collapsible? - Well, I should say near about 80.
1625. Would she hold all that? - Well, we were frightened of her ourselves. Mr. Lightoller gave orders, "Keep quiet, men, before you get into the boat now."
1626. I want to get it clear. I do not quite understand why you left the collapsible so very empty and filled this boat so very full? - Because we were frightened of her. We had no plug in it.
1627. You had no plug? - We did not know whether there was a plug in it or not. We could not find it.
1628. Was it full of water? - There was water under our feet. The women were frightened of her.
1629. Surely if there had been no plug there, there would have been a great deal of water with 40 people in her? - These boats have a false bottom and plug hole about that depth. Me and Mr. Lightoller were looking round for that plug a good ten minutes before any passenger got into it and could not find it.
1630. Is it plugged from the top? - I should say so.

Page 53

1631. Do not you know how this boat ought to be plugged? - Well, not these boats. They are the first boats I have seen of that build.
1632. (The Commissioner.) For aught you know the plug may have been in position? - Yes, my Lord.
1633. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did you see No. 8 go away from the ship? - I lowered No. 8 myself.
1634. How many people were there then in her? - I should say near about forty.
1635. How many men as far as you can recollect? - Three.
1636. How long before you went did she go? - About half an hour.
1637. Then she did not go very far away? - No.
1638. She had only three men to row and a heavy load? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: A heavy load! She had 40, and afterwards took 40 more apparently.
1639. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Yes. The other 36 makes up the other 40? - Yes. But when we got to the other boat I transferred some of those people off the upturned boat into another boat; I think it was No. 10.
1640. I have not got it yet, I think. When No. 8 went away she had 40 people in her, you think? - Yes.
1641. How many people went in your collapsible? - Forty; loaded right up.
1642. And they went into No. 8, did they not? - Yes.
1643. And that made 80? - Yes.
1644. Where did the 36 men off the collapsible go? - We took them aboard our boat and then we transferred some of them to another boat that came up alongside us; No. 10, I think.
1645. At one time you had more than 80 on No. 8? - Yes, at the time we were crossing.
1646. You did not see any living people in the water? - No.
1647. Did you hear any cries? - I did.
1648. Did you see No. 12 boat at all, or only No. 8, or was it No. 12? - Well, I started all those boats on the port side right till I got forward.
1649. The one you transferred your people to, was that No. 8 or No. 12? - They were the last people to go on board the "Carpathia," and to be picked up.
1650. Were they No. 8 or No. 12? - I think one was No. 8. I think the other was No. 10 or 12. I would not be sure; I know the coxswain of her.
1651. What is his name? - Foley.
1652. Was he a steward? - No, a sailor.
1653. He is not a third-class steward? - No.
1654. Was he saved? - Yes.
1655. Now, did you have any boat drill? - Yes.
1656. Where was that? - Southampton.
1657. You told me you came on board just before she sailed? - Yes, but we always had this boat drill with the Board of Trade muster - just after we have our muster, that is just after 9.
1658. Earlier in the day? - Yes.
1659. You mean you had your boat drill and then went ashore again? - Yes; it is a regular thing for sailors to go ashore and have a final drink.
1660. Did you actually take part in the boat drill or did you only muster? - I went up to the boats to lower them, but I went ashore.
1661. How do you mean? - I went up about the boat, and as soon as I saw a chance I went ashore.
1662. You did not take part yourself in the actual drill? - No.
1663. Where was the drill held, on the boat deck? - Yes.
1664. How near to the drill did you get? - I got on the boat deck to get the boats out, and then I went ashore.
1665. You did not bear a hand in anything? - No.
1666. Did you get to your right boat? - It is any boat you get in. They lower the boats and you go away in those boats, you sail back and get hoisted in board.
1667. You do not muster at your particular boats? - No.
1668. You had a particular boat? - Yes, you always muster at that when you are at sea.
1669. Did you have any boat drill at sea? - Not in this ship.
1670. You knew where your boat was? - Yes.
1671. How many seamen were there in No. 8 when you got there? - Two.
1672. How many seamen, in your judgment, does it want to man one of these boats? - A lifeboat wants at least 12 hands in it.
1673. And how many passengers would she then hold safely? - I should think she would take 40 comfortably.
1674. Then how many oars would she row with 12 men according to your reckoning? - Twelve oars.
1675. And a coxswain beside? - Yes.
1676. (The Commissioner.) Do I understand, in your opinion, a lifeboat to accommodate 40 people ought to have in it 12 men with each an oar? - Yes, my Lord.
1677. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did you have one man to each oar or two men to an oar? - One man to an oar in a lifeboat.
1678. Do they have sails? - Yes.
1679. And when you say 12 men - ? - That includes the four to sail the boat.
1680. Would they be enough in bad weather? - That is the crew.
1681. When you say 12 - ? - I am talking of rough weather.
1682. A crew to face everything? - Yes.
1683. Did you find it difficult to row these lifeboats with only two oars? - Well, we just kept her going that is all.
1684. And the collapsible, how many men do you think would be wanted for the collapsible? - About five hands.
1685. Four to row and one to steer? - Yes.
1686. Is the collapsible intended to have a rudder? - Yes.
1687. Did you never see a rudder belonging to a collapsible? - I never saw one there.
1688. Had she the proper number of oars? - Yes.
1689. And rowlocks or crutches? - Yes.
1690. Did you never see the rudder? - No.
1691. What happened to the collapsible ultimately? - I do not know.
1692. Was she cut adrift, or was she taken on board the "Carpathia"? - None of the collapsible boats were taken on board of her. They were cast adrift.
1693. Therefore you never had an opportunity of seeing? - No.
1694. Can you form any judgment as to whether she had a plug or not? - If there had not been a false bottom I might have been able to find it out, but they carry a false bottom about 2 feet from the keel.
1695. As far as you were able to see you could not see whether there was a plug or not? - To speak the truth, I do not think there was a plug in the boat.
1696. Would she have floated as well as she did without a plug? Would not the water have spurted up from the hole? - We could not see that because there was a false bottom - that was what I was frightened of.
1697. You mean a false bottom, not watertight? - Yes.
1698. Not one hole coming through the two bottoms? - The boat is like that, and the false bottom is laid like a bit of a platform. (describing.)
1699. You did not know what was going on under the platform? - No.
1700. I see; that is what it was. Would not you have expected the water to have come over the platform more than it did if there had been no plug at all in the boat? - I should have done, yes.
1701. What is your conclusion about whether there was a plug or not? - The passengers wanted to get out of the boat, and I got them out of it.
1702. Was there a lamp in the boat? - No.
1703. And no provisions nor water? - Not in this boat.
1704. (The Commissioner.) A compass? - No.
1705. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Was there going to be any other boat drill as far as you heard? - No, I do not think there was, they would have mustered that Sunday. It is a regular thing in these boats to muster on Sunday for boat drill and fire stations.

Page 54

1706. You had had a Sunday? - Yes, this was a Sunday.
1707. Did you muster? - No.
1708. (The Commissioner.) Why was that? - I do not know, my Lord.

Cross-examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

1709. In the boat drill you had at Southampton is it the case that only able seamen and deckhands took part in it? - That is all.
1710. No firemen, no stokers, no engineers or stewards were called to take part in it? - No.
1711. Had you been given any training in the launching of a collapsible boat? - That is my work. I do not want any training.
1712. I know you are a capable man. Had you on board the "Titanic" been instructed in the launching of any of those collapsible boats? - No.
1713. In the state of your knowledge while you were on the "Titanic" did you know whether to expect plugs or not in the collapsible? - No.
1714. If there had been plugs in this collapsible boat attached with lanyards or chains, could you have found them easily? - Certainly.
1715. Can you tell my Lord that there was not a plug attached by a lanyard or a chain in this collapsible boat? - I should say now that there was no plug attached to the boat; I never saw one.
1716. Was there a sea anchor in this collapsible? - No.
1717. Was there a baler? - Yes, there was a baler.
1718. A rudder or tiller? - No rudder or tiller.
      The Commissioner: Is a rudder used in those boats?
      Mr. Scanlan: I am reading, my Lord, from the general rules under the Merchant Shipping Act, and if your Lordship will refer to page 15 of the rules you will see: "Equipments for collapsible or other boats and for the rafts. In order to be properly equipped each boat shall be provided as follows: - (A.) With the full single banked complement of oars and two spare oars. (b) With two plugs for each plug hole, attached with lanyards or chains and one set and a half of thole pins or crutches, attached to the boat by sound lanyards. (c) With a sea anchor, a baler, a rudder and a tiller, or yoke and yoke lines, a painter of sufficient length and a boat hook. The rudder and baler to be attached to the boat by sufficiently long lanyards and kept ready for use."
      The Commissioner: What is the date of those rules?
      Mr. Scanlan: 1894 my Lord, it is here.
      The Attorney-General: February, 1902.
      Mr. Scanlan: Yes, 1902. I think there was a rule made in 1910.
      The Attorney-General: Quite right, and there is another in 1909.
      Mr. Scanlan: And the rules were reprinted in 1911.
      The Commissioner: Are they the same in 1911 as they were in 1902?
      Mr. Scanlan: Yes, my Lord, with the exception of the one added rule.
      The Attorney-General: I do not think that affects this.
1719. (The Commissioner - To the Witness.) Is it possible to steer these collapsible boats without a rudder? - Yes, by putting an oar over the stern.
1720. Is not there a provision made in the stern of collapsible boats for an oar which is to act as a rudder? - No, my Lord.
1721. Well, there is according to my notion. Are you sure? - I have never seen a place, my Lord.
1722. I mean a place for a rowlock? - No, I never saw one, my Lord.
1723. Did you ever look? - Well, I did look when I was in this collapsible boat.
      Mr. Scanlan: I think that point that your Lordship is referring to is met in one of the rules which I did not finish. "In boats where there may be a difficulty in fitting a rudder a steering oar may be provided instead."
      The Commissioner: According to the picture which I have here of one of these collapsible boats, there is no rudder, but there is the provision of a row-lock and so provision for steering with an oar.
1724. (Mr. Scanlan.) Yes, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Were there four collapsible boats on board? - One either side of the emergency boats and one each side of the funnel.
1725. Of the four, how many were actually launched? - I can answer for two.
1726. Do you know whether the others were launched or not? - I cannot say.
1727. You have told us that you saw eight lifeboats being launched? - Yes.
1728. And sent off with a complement of passengers? - Yes.
      Were all these incompletely filled with passengers?
      The Commissioner: Not his own I should say.
1729. (Mr. Scanlan.) Before his own. (To the Witness.) Yours was the last to leave? - Yes.
1730. But of the eight which you saw leaving is it true that they were incompletely filled? - Some had more passengers in than others.
1731. How many more do you think could have been accommodated in these? - In some of them they could have taken another 15 or 20.
1732. (The Commissioner.) Now, what I want to know is this; why were they not filled up? - There were not any females on the deck to put in the boats.
1733. Or if they were they would not go? - Some would go in and some would not; they wanted to stay behind with their husbands.
1734. (Mr. Scanlan.) From the time of the order which you received to assist in uncovering and launching the lifeboats until they were being sent off from the side, was there sufficient interval to enable the female passengers in the steerage to be got up to the boat deck? - They would if they had anybody there to direct them to the boat deck.
1735. Was there any person, so far as you were aware, directing the steerage passengers, either those who were stationed forward or aft, to the boat decks? - I do not think so.
1736. You do not think there was anybody? - No.
1737. (The Commissioner.) But you were not there to see, I should think? - No, my Lord; but there were hardly any third-class passengers up there.
1738. (Mr. Scanlan.) You say that you heard shouts, "Any more passengers?" "Any more women?" - Yes; I shouted myself.
1739. Could those shouts by any possibility have been heard by the passengers in the third-class quarters? - No, not at all.
1740. Of the eight boats which you saw launched how many were properly manned with seamen? - [No Answer.]
      The Commissioner: Do you mean with twelve seamen? - I do not know what you mean by "properly manned." Is your definition of "properly manned" twelve seamen?
      Mr. Scanlan: It is not, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: What is your definition?
      Mr. Scanlan: I should hesitate, my Lord, at this stage of the Inquiry, on my instructions to give a definition as to what is a sufficient number of seamen to man a lifeboat.
      The Commissioner: This Witness said twelve.
      Mr. Scanlan: My instructions have never gone to that extent, my Lord -
      The Commissioner: I am not astonished to hear that.
1741. (Mr. Scanlan.) As to the efficiency of a crew for manning a lifeboat. (To the Witness.) How many seamen could, in your opinion, man one of those lifeboats in fine weather and under favourable conditions which you had on the night of this unfortunate accident? - If they were to keep in the boat for any length of time it would want at least six.

Page 55

1742. In those eight boats which were launched while you were looking on, can you tell my Lord how many seamen were in each on an average? - To my knowledge there was either one or two in each.
1743. Was that insufficient in your opinion? - That is the regulation, two sailors to each boat.
      The Commissioner: I really do not understand it. He says the regulations are two in each boat. He says there ought to be twelve in some circumstances, and apparently six in other circumstances. What am I to understand? Are we getting this Witness's skilled opinion on the point?
1744. (Mr. Scanlan.) I think his opinion might be of some value. (To the Witness.) When you speak of twelve men being required do you mean stokers as well as seamen? - I am a Service man and I did nine years in the Navy, and for a lifeboat it was always considered fourteen men is a lifeboat's crew.
1745. (The Commissioner.) How many persons will that boat manned with 14 men carry in addition to the 14 men? - That boat would carry at least 50 besides the crew.
1746. Besides the fourteen? - Yes.
1747. (Mr. Scanlan.) When you speak of Mercantile Marine boats - I am not talking of Service boats now - you referred to a crew of twelve? - Yes.
1748. Does that include firemen and engineers and stewards as well as seamen? - Yes.
1749. You also stated a moment ago that you are supposed to have two seamen to each lifeboat? - Yes.
1750. Is that an ordinary regulation - two qualified seamen? - Yes, that is a regulation laid down by this Company - two sailors to each boat.
1751. Were there two sailors to each of the boats which you saw launched before you left the "Titanic"? - There were two sailors in several of them, one in some, and a fireman took their place.
1752. Do the firemen and stokers in other ships? - No.
      Mr. Holmes: I have no questions.
      With regard to this boat drill at Southampton, are many men allowed to run away as you did on that Saturday?
      The Commissioner: What is that question?

Examined by Mr. LEWIS.

1753. (Mr. Lewis.) I am asking about the boat drill on Saturday at Southampton, where, I think, Mr. Lucas departed to have a drink. (To the Witness.) Was any notice taken of your going away? - No.
1754. What time is generally spent upon these boat drills as a rule? - I should say about an hour from the time they are lowered to the time they are hoisted.
1755. Who takes part - only sailors? - Only sailors.
1756. The whole of the sailors? - Yes.
1757. And how many boats? - Two.
1758. Is the Board of Trade Inspector generally present? - Yes.
1759. And does he make a thorough examination of the boats? - Yes.
1760. Does he see that they are properly equipped? - Yes.
1761. Now with regard to the "Titanic," I understand you went from your quarters? - Yes.
1762. How long did it take you to get from your quarters to the boat deck? - I should say about five minutes.
1763. No more? - No.
1764. (The Commissioner.) Where are your quarters. I thought they were here? - Yes; in the fore-well deck.
1765. You had got up to the boat deck? - Yes.
1766. Does it take you five minutes to get up? - At times it took me longer than that. I never knew my way; it was a new ship.
1767. In ordinary circumstances, or what I conceive to be ordinary circumstances, do you mean to tell me it takes five minutes to get from your quarters in the fore part of the ship up to the boat deck? Just think about it? - It took me close on that. I never knew my way properly upon the boat deck.
1768. Do you mean to say that you were groping about in places that you knew nothing about? - Yes.
1769. Had you never been up before? - Yes, I had been on the boat deck every watch.
1770. And had not you then learnt your way? - Yes, I had learnt my way.
1771. Then having learnt your way how long did it take you to go your way to get to the boat deck? Five minutes seems a very long time. I should have said half-a-minute? - It is rather long, my Lord.
      The Commissioner: I came up those stairs in the "Olympic" yesterday. It is quite true I was shown the way but five minutes seems an extraordinary length of time.
      Mr. Lewis: Would you say the boat is very complicated?
1772. (The Commissioner.) Was it difficult for you to find your way from your quarters up to the boat deck? - No.
1773. (Mr. Lewis.) Was it easy to get from the men's quarters to the deck? Would it be more difficult on the "Titanic" than one of the Union-Castle boats? - Yes.
1774. You say it would be more difficult? - In the "Titanic," yes.
1775. How long did it take you? I understand you say you assisted to get eight lifeboats out? - Yes.
1776. How long did it take you from the time you commenced till the time you finished with the last boat? How long were you engaged on the work? - I should say about an hour.
1777. You said that you were launching that boat. I understood you to say there were eight sailors there? - That is right.
1778. You were rather short-handed in launching the eight boats? - Yes.
1779. And there were not sufficient seamen sent out with the boats? - No.
1780. What had those eight men been doing? - Lowering all the boats.
1781. But they were left behind? - Yes, left behind along with me - got orders to stand by the boats and lower, and do nothing else.
1782. As two sailors at each boat went out they left the number behind to look after the other boats? - Yes.
1783. It would not require the eight sailors to do the last two or three boats, would it? - It required every man that was there. I got ordered out of the boat I was in, the last collapsible boat, to get one off from the funnel.
1784. Were there any women or children left behind when you left on this collapsible boat? - Yes, I left two myself.
1785. Where were they? - They were lying alongside of me and I said to them: "Wait a minute, there's another boat going to be put down from the funnel for you."
1786. That was because you could not take them? - I could not take them.
1787. Were they young people or old? - Two young girls.

Page 56

Examined by Mr. COTTER.

1788. How long have you been in the employ of the White Star Line? - About eighteen months or two years.
1789. Have you been in any other lines that have first-class passenger ships? - No.
1790. When you got to the boat decks, you found these collapsible boats lashed down? - Yes, they were secured down.
1791. How were they secured? - I could not tell you.
1792. Have you any idea how you got them away? - The collapsible boats?
1793. Yes? - The same falls from the emergency boat picked the collapsible boats off the deck.
1794. Who cut them away? Did you chop them away with anything, or did you unfasten them? - Firemen and sailors.
1795. How many firemen were there? - I should say about 40.
1796. Forty firemen and how many sailors? - Three while I was there.
1797. I thought you said eight? - This is getting the collapsible boat off the deck. Eight sailors were there when I was alongside the funnel - by the boat by the funnel.
1798. You had had no drill or any practice in getting these collapsible boats away in case of emergency? - No.
1799. None at all? - No.

Examined by SIR ROBERT FINLAY.

1800. You said you saw a sidelight and a masthead light? - Yes.
1801. Was I right in thinking that you said you judged them to be eight or nine miles apart? - Yes.
1802. Could you see a sidelight eight or nine miles distant? - A night like that I could.
1803. Eight or nine miles distant? - I think so.
1804. You saw nothing more of the vessel to which those lights belonged? - No; the light went further away every time we looked at it.
1805. (The Commissioner.) I am not quite clear about it. Did you see this masthead light and this sidelight before you got into the boat? - No.
1806. Before you were on the surface of the water? - No, I never saw it.
1807. And you saw one of them nine miles away when you were down in the boat? - Yes.
1808. (Sir Robert Finlay.) At the time of the collision did you hear any noise? - No, only the collision we had with the berg.
1809. That is what I mean. If it made any noise can you describe what it was like? - Like a ship running up on gravel, a crushing noise.
1810. Grating on gravel? - Yes.
1811. In regard to all these lifeboats that you saw lowered, did you notice whether there was water? - There was breakers of water.
1812. Yes? - The boat I was in had breakers of water.
1813. You mean the collapsible? - Yes, and No. 8 boat.
1814. (The Commissioner.) Both had? - The collapsible boats are not fitted with any breakers, not the one I was in; but No. 8 had water in it.
1815. (Sir Robert Finlay.) Did you notice with regard to any of the other boats? - No.
1816. Did you notice whether there were biscuits in any of them? - I asked the coxswain of No. 8 whether he had any biscuits in the boat, and he said "Yes, he had and water too."
1817. Did many of the women passengers refuse to leave the ship? - Me and Mr. Lightoller helped one elderly lady into the collapsible boat, and we had to get her out again because she refused. She would not go without her husband. There were several cases like that while I was lowering my boats on the port side.
1818. Several cases like that came under your own notice? - Yes.
1819. You know that a great many third-class women passengers were saved? - Yes.
1820. You were not there to hear how they were told what was happening? - No.
1821. Somebody must have told them? - Yes.

Re-examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

1822. You have spoken to us of what happened before you left Southampton. With reference to the boats, was it No. 3 and 7 lifeboats which were swung out, do you remember? - I could not answer for that.
1823. Were there two boats on the starboard side? - Yes.
1824. Were the deckhands duly mustered? - Yes.
1825. And then were a number of men told off to swing out and lower the boats into the water? - Yes.
1826. Do you remember at all how many men? - No. That is all the men, all sailors - it does not matter what you are - all go to those two boats.
1827. All the sailors who would otherwise have to man the other boats? - Yes.
1828. The sailors? - Yes.
1829. A number of them with an officer formed the crew of each boat? - Yes.
1830. Then were the boats swung out at the same time? - Yes, they went away together.
1831. Is that a matter which takes about 3 1/2 minutes, or something like that? - It would be about that.
1832. Were the crews exercised by the officers in the water? - Yes.
1833. Did you see an Emigration Officer of the Board of Trade there at the time this was done? - Yes, there was an officer there.
1834. We are talking of it as a boat drill; it is as well to get it correct, my Lord; it is not boat drill?
      The Commissioner: So I gathered.
      The Attorney-General: It is a muster.
      The Commissioner: They do not go through any evolutions.
      The Attorney-General: No.
      The Commissioner: They simply go up and stand opposite two boats, not more.
      The Attorney-General: Yes. Then, of course, they swing out the boats and they go into the water and they are exercised. This is in order to satisfy the Emigration Officer of the Board of Trade. That is the point. It is not boat drill at all; it is a muster. Your Lordship asked a question also about the rules. I find that the last rule is the 14th June, 1911, and that makes some additions and amendments to rules in reference to deck lifeboats. If your Lordship has not got it we will see you get it. We will go into that more fully hereafter.

(The Witness withdrew.)

Page 57

FREDERICK BARRETT, Sworn.

Examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL.

1834. Is your name Frederick Barrett? - Yes.
1835. Are you a fireman, a leading hand? - A leading stoker.
1836. Does a stoker and a fireman mean the same thing? - No.
1837. What is the difference? - One is a little higher than the other.
1838. I beg your pardon, are you a leading stoker? - Yes.
1839. Is there a leading stoker to each stoke-hold? - There is a leading stoker to each section.
1840. And how many sections are there? - Six, one is a single section. There are five leading stokers on each watch.
1841. You say there are six sections? - Yes, one is a single section.
1842. Which was the number of your section? - No. 6.
1843. Does that correspond to No. 6 boiler room? - Yes.
1844. We had a fireman here this morning, Beauchamp his name was, he told us it was No. 10 section? - That is No. 10 stokehold. There are two stokeholds to each section.
1845. That is one of the two stokeholds in No. 6 section? - No. 10 and 11 stokeholds is No. 6 section.
1846. Yes, that works it out. I suppose it runs like that all through. One and two corresponds to No. 1 boiler? - Yes, No. 10 and 11 is No. 6 section and 8 and 9 is No. 5 section.
1847. Is this section of yours, No. 6 section, the foremost section of the ship? - Yes, right forward.
1848. It is under the fore funnel, of course? - It is the forward boiler.
1849. It will be under the fore funnel? - It is just close under the fore funnel.
1850. Were you on duty at the time this accident happened? - Yes.
1851. How many firemen or stokers are there in a watch working with you in No. 6? - There are eight firemen in No. 6 section and four coal trimmers. That is what they call the men who wheel the coal.
1852. And yourself as well? - Yes, and an engineer.
1853. Who was the engineer who was on duty? - Mr. Shepherd.
1854. Now can you tell me where you were or what you were doing just at the time the collision happened? - I was talking to the second engineer.
1855. What is his name? - Mr. Hescott. [Hesketh]
1856. Can you tell us where you were? - I was in No. 10 stokehold.
1857. I think it is important to fix the place. Does this stokehold extend across the ship from the starboard side to the port side? - Yes.
1858. Can you tell me which side you were in the stokehold? - The starboard side.
1859. You were talking to Mr. Hescott [Hesketh]? - Yes.
1860. Now just tell us what happened that you noticed? - There is like a clock rigged up in the stokehold and a red light goes up when the ship is supposed to stop; a white light for full speed, and, I think it is a blue light for slow. This red light came up. I am the man in charge of the watch, and I called out, "Shut all dampers."
1861. You saw this red light? - Yes.
1862. You knew that was an order to stop the engines? - It says "stop" - a red piece of glass and an electric light inside.
1863. Shutting the dampers, I suppose, would be? - To shut the wind off the fires.
1864. To shut the draught off the fires. And you gave an order, "Shut the dampers"? - Yes.
1865. Was that order obeyed? - Yes.
1866. What was the next thing that happened? - The crash came before we had them all shut.
1867. They were shutting them when the crash came? - Yes.
1868. Where was the crash - what was it you felt or heard or saw? - Water came pouring in two feet above the stokehold plate; the ship's side was torn from the third stokehold to the foreward end.
1869. We will get this slowly, because it is important. Just let us have that again. You said something about the water coming in? - Yes.
1870. Did it come in on you? - Yes.
1871. Did it come into this No. 6 section No. 10 stokehold? - Yes.
1872. Then you said something about the side of the ship being torn? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: Before you leave that will you tell me where the water came from?
1873. (The Solicitor-General.) It is the same thing as I was upon, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Where did the water come from? - Well, out of the sea, I expect.
1874. (The Solicitor-General.) I think your last question and mine meant the same thing, my Lord. (To the Witness.) I wanted to know where it came from - underneath or from the side or from the port side or from the starboard side? - The starboard side.
1875. Can you tell us at all compared with where you were standing whether it came from above or below? - About two feet from where I was standing.
      The Commissioner: That is what I want to know - exactly where the water came from. He says from the starboard side.
1876. (The Solicitor-General.) We will get it by degrees, my Lord. (To the Witness.) About two feet from above where your feet were? - Yes.
1877. On the starboard side? - Yes.
1878. What is it you stand on in the stokehold? - We call them plates. It is like a floor.
1879. Iron plates, I suppose? - Yes.
1880. I expect you can find your way about a plan. Do you think you could point on this section here with a pointer what would be the level you were standing on? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: Yes. (To the Witness.) Just do so. Perhaps we could understand it better if he did it on the upper plan.
      The Solicitor-General: I will get it from the lower one first and then turn to the other.
      (The Witness pointed out on the plan.)
1881. (The Solicitor-General.) Is the place you are pointing out now No. 6 section and No. 10 stoke-hold? - Yes.
      (The Witness further pointed out on the plan.)
1882. And is the place you are pointing out now the floor level where you would be standing? - No, that is about here. (Pointing on the plan.)
1883. Lord Mersey thinks you might also be able to point it out on the section above. You see there is the water level outside the ship where she would be? - The plates were supposed to be six feet above the tank tops. That is what it is reckoned to be.
1884. The floor you are standing on is supposed to be six feet above the top of the tanks? - Yes.
1885. What tanks are those? - I could not tell you.
1886. The tank top is marked there, is it not? - Yes. (The Witness pointed out the position on the top plan.) There would be about six feet over these tank tops.
1887. (The Commissioner.) Those were the plates you were standing on? - Yes.
1888. Did the water come up through those plates? - No, from 2 feet over those plates.
1889. Did the water come through the side of the ship? - Yes.
1890. Before you go away can you point out to me whereabouts in the skin of the ship the water came from. Look at the top plan? - I cannot judge by the top plan. I can judge better by this one.
1891. Very well? - The ship was torn right through here (indicating on the plan). I consulted Mr. Shepherd and Mr. Hescott [Hesketh] about the hole being in this bunker, and that was the farthest aft the ship was torn. This is a watertight compartment, and the ship was torn from there to there. That is in the next section.
1892. (The Solicitor-General.) What do you call that section? - No. 5.

Page 58

1893. (The Commissioner.) Just show me on that plan the watertight bulkhead that is nearest the bow? - I have no duty at the forward end; I only know where I am working.
      The Commissioner: Point out to me, Sir John, will you?
      The Solicitor-General: As I understand the collision bulkhead is here (pointing) and then there is one here, a third one here, and a fourth one here.
      The Commissioner: And the water came in on the afterside of the bulkhead that you are pointing to?
1894. (The Solicitor-General.) We have still one more to go. There is a fifth one here. I understand the Witness to say that he found water was coming in aft of that bulkhead, the fifth, and therefore the skin of the ship was certainly injured at that point? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: How many watertight compartments are there forward of that point? Are there four or five?
      The Solicitor-General: Your Lordship sees that forward of that point there are five bulkheads, and a compartment would be formed I presume by any two of them.
      Sir Robert Finlay: There are six altogether, my Lord, I think.
      The Commissioner: I want to see how far aft the rent or whatever it was caused by the iceberg extended.
      The Solicitor-General: May I ask the Witness a question about it?
      The Commissioner: Certainly.
1895. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) You pointed out that you found that this rent was abaft of this bulkhead here and therefore that the water was coming into No. 5 section? - Yes.
1896. Can you tell me whether the rent went further aft than that? - It did not.
1897. So it got as far as that and no further? - Yes.
1898. That is one end your Lordship sees. (To the Witness.) Now as far as you are concerned, can you tell me whether the rent ran right through No. 10 section? - I did not stop to look; I jumped from that section when she struck.
1899. You jumped from No. 6 section back to No. 5. - Yes.
1900. And you cannot tell me of your own knowledge whether there was damage done more forward than aft? - I cannot.
      The Commissioner: He knows nothing about the damage, I suppose, except in the place in which he was.
1901. (The Solicitor-General.) That is it, my Lord. Now, if I may keep him here for a moment, there are two or three things I want to ask him. (To the Witness.) The water came into No. 6 section, where you were at work? - Yes.
1902. Just after you had given the order to close the dampers, and while they were being closed; is that right? - Yes.
1903. Did it come in fast? - Yes.
1904. Did it come in fast enough to begin to flood the place? - Yes.
1905. Then what was it that you did? - Me and Mr. Hescott [Hesketh] jumped into this section, and the watertight compartment closed up.
1906. You and Mr. Hescott [Hesketh] both jumped into the next section? - Yes.
1907. There were stokers working there still; firemen in No. 6? - Yes.
1908. What happened to them? - There was one of them saved.
1909. One of them was saved? - Yes.
1910. Did he get through the watertight compartment with you? - I could not tell you where he got to.
1911. What was his name? - Beauchamp, I think it was.
1912. He is the man who has given evidence here this morning, because he said he was in No.10. As far as you know were any others of your gang saved? - I could not tell you.
1913. Now point out in this bulkhead whereabouts in the section of it does this watertight door come that you jumped through? - This connects in the amidship part of the ship. There is a pass connecting this bulkhead. It is further aft than that, it is about here in the centre of the ship (pointing on the plan).
1914. It is in a passage, is it? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: Is that a door that works automatically, or is it a door that has to be shut?
1915. (The Solicitor-General.) I think we shall find out, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Can you tell me whether that is one of the watertight doors that is worked from the bridge? - It is.
1916. At the time the accident happened it was open. You and Mr. Hescott [Hesketh] got through it just in time and it shut down behind you? - Yes.
1917. Then when you got into the next section, No. 5, did you find water there? - I went through this bunker here - it is a coal bunker - and then the water was rushing in.
1918. You say you went through the coal bunker, which is immediately abaft of the watertight door which you had passed through? - Yes.
1919. And did you find water coming in in that bunker? - Yes, pouring in the bunker.
1920. Was it coming in rapidly? - Yes.
1921. Could you tell us from what level it was coming in? The same as the other? - Two feet above the plates.
1922. Still the same? - Yes.
1923. And then did you get into the stokehold, here? - We were in the stokehold.
1924. And water was coming into the stokehold? - No, only into the bunker.
1925. And that is as far aft as the rent seemed to go? - Yes.
1926. Then what did you do when you got into No. 5? - Mr. Hescott [Hesketh] shouted out "all hands stand by your stations." That is for the men to stand by the fires. My station was in the next boiler room, and Mr. Shepherd and I went up an escape and down to the boiler room, but we could not get in. There were 8 feet of water in it.
1927. (The Solicitor-General.) I do not know whether your Lordship caught that. I will ask it again. It is more satisfactory than my telling you. (To the Witness.) I was asking you, and I will get you to repeat it slowly and clearly, what happened when you got through this doorway and into No. 5? You told me that Mr. Hescott [Hesketh] gave an order? - Yes.
1928. What was the order he gave? - "Every man to his station."
1929. Your station was No. 6? - Yes.
1930. The one you had just come from? - Yes.
1931. Then what did you do? - Me and Mr. Shepherd, that is the engineer who is in my section, go up the escape of No. 5 and down No. 6 escape.
1932. You tried to go back into the place you had come from? - Yes, we did go back, but we could not go in there because there were about eight feet of water when we got there.
1933. You could not get back to No. 6 through the doorway because it was shut? - Yes.
1934. So you had to go up one escape and down another? - Yes.
1935. When you came into No. 6 what water did you find in it then? - Eight feet above the plates.
1936. That is a rise of six feet since you left it? - Yes.
1937. (The Commissioner.) How long? - It was not a quarter of an hour, just on ten minutes.
1938. (The Solicitor-General.) You told us you got as quickly as you could into No. 5? - Yes.
1939. And when this order was given did you obey it as quickly as you could? - Yes, we obeyed it as quickly as we could.
1940. Now just think. Was there much length of time after you got into No. 5 and before Mr. Hescott [Hesketh] gave that order? - I should say about ten minutes.
1941. You had been in the bunker? - Yes.
1942. (The Commissioner.) Why did you go into the bunker? - I never went into the bunker, my Lord. The bunker was empty, my Lord, and you can stand on the stokehold plates and look into the bunker from the stokehold. You can see into the bunker from where you are working.
1943. (The Solicitor-General.) Your Lordship appreciates that it is up to there that he says the rent came. (To the Witness.) When you returned or tried to return to No. 6 coming down that emergency ladder did you see anything of your mates in No. 6? - No.

Page 59

1944. (The Commissioner.) What had become of them? - I cannot tell you, my Lord.
1945. Have you seen any of them since? - Only one.
1946. (The Solicitor-General.) That is Beauchamp, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Suppose you were in one of these sections and you went to get out of it at ordinary times. I want to know how many ways out there are? You have said you can get through the watertight doorway when it is open, and there is this emergency ladder. Is there any third way? - I could not tell you. I was only four days on the ship myself.
1947. As far as you know is there any third way? - No, not to my knowledge.
      The Commissioner: I do not think there are any other ways.
1948. (The Solicitor-General.) I do not think so, my Lord. (To the Witness.) The bunker you went into was empty? - Yes.
1949. There was no coal in it? - No.
1950. Was there any water in that? - The water was pouring into it when I noticed it.
1951. That brings us as far as you are finding eight feet of water in your own section? - Yes.
1952. When you found there were eight feet of water there, what did you do then? - We came back to No. 5.
1953. Again using these emergency ladders? - Yes.
1954. That really means, does it not, passing over the top of the bulkhead? - Yes; you come out into the alleyway where the passengers would be.
1955. (The Commissioner.) The alleyway that goes right fore and aft of the ship? - Yes.
1956. (The Solicitor-General.) Did Mr. Shepherd come back with you to No. 5? - Yes.
1957. And when you got back to No. 5, you and Mr. Shepherd, who else did you find there? - Mr. Harvey and Mr. Wilson.
1958. What is their rating? - I could not tell you; they are engineers, second assistant engineers.
1959. Anyhow, they are engineers? - Yes.
1960. Mr. Harvey, one of the engineers, and Mr. Wilson? - Yes.
1961. And what were they doing? - Attending to the pumps.
1962. Are there pumps in each section? - As far as I understand, there are.
1963. At any rate there were pumps in No. 5? - Yes.
1964. And when you got back to No. 5, how much water was there in No. 5? - None.
1965. Let us understand it. You said that the bunker in No. 5 had got some water coming into it? - Yes; but the hole was not so big in that section as it was in No. 6 section. By the time the water had got there she had stopped.
1966. So that the water was not coming into No. 5 fast enough to flood it? - No.
1967. Were the pumps working in No. 5? - I could not tell you.
1968. Did you get down to the plate level in No. 5? - Yes.
1969. And the water was not above that? - No.
1970. Now tell us what happened after that. We have come back to No. 5, and you say they were attending to the pumps there. What was the next thing that happened? - They rang through from the engine room to send all the stokers up and me to remain there.
1971. They rang through from the engine room. The engine room is further aft, of course? - Yes, right aft.
1972. It is under the after funnel? - They have a telephone in every section.
1973. The engine room is between the third and fourth funnels? They telephoned from the engine room to No. 5 section did they? - Yes.
1974. And what did you say the message was? - Send all the stokers up.
1975. Up where? On deck? -Yes, up on deck.
1976. I think you told me you were told to remain? - Yes.
1977. Who gave you that order? - Mr. Harvey.
1978. That was one of the engineers that was in No. 5? - Yes.
1979. Do you know what he wanted you to remain for? - In case he wanted anything, I could go and fetch it, because you have to travel up ladders. You cannot go through the watertight doors.
1980. That is what I wanted to know. Was the watertight door in the bulkhead behind you, the one at the afterend of No. 5 shut? - Yes.
1981. Does that shut automatically too? - I believe it shuts the same as the remainder.
1982. Then you were given an order by Mr. Harvey to remain there, and I suppose you did. What did the other hands there do? - I sent them up.
1983. They all went up? - Yes.
1984. Then you and Mr. Harvey were left alone in No. 5? - And Mr. Wilson and Mr. Shepherd.
1985. The three engineers and you. Was it still clear of water? - Yes.
1986. So the bulkhead in front of No. 5 was holding the water back? - Yes.
1987. Now what happened after that? - The lights went out.
1988. The lights went out in No. 5? - Yes.
1989. And when the lights went out what did you do? - Mr. Harvey sent me up for some lamps.
1990. Did you go? - I went to the top of the escape and sent two firemen. They fetched 12 to 15 back.
1991. I should like to understand about the escape. This is the escape ladder, of course? - Yes.
1992. Is it an iron ladder, and you climb up hand over hand? - No, it is an iron ladder on a slant. It slants over the boiler.
1993. Where does it come out? - Into the main alleyway.
1994. And then that runs fore and aft, and you can go forward by it? - Yes.
1995. You sent two firemen for lamps? - Yes.
1996. Is the lamp room in the forecastle? - You have to go down into the engine room for them.
1997. They had to go aft? - Yes, aft to the engine room.
1998. Did they get lamps? - Yes.
1999. And bring them back to you? - Yes.
2000. Did you take them down to Number 5? - Yes.
2001. (The Commissioner.) The electric lights were still burning in the alleyway? - They went out for ten minutes. They must have been changing over to the other engine. As soon as I got the lamps they came on again.
2002. That is in the alleyway? - In the stokehold.
2003. (The Solicitor-General.) I am not sure you have answered my Lord's question. You went up as far as the alleyway, and the alleyway is lighted by electric light? - Yes.
2004. Was the light burning or was it out there too? - It was burning there.
2005. It was only in No. 5 it had gone out as far as you know? - Yes.
2006. Then the lamps are got and you take them down to No. 5, and how soon did the electric light come back? - It just came back as we got the lamps.
2007. When you got back to number 5 was it still clear of water, or not? - Still clear of water.
2008. What was the condition of the boilers at this time? - I looked at the water. There was no water in the boilers.
2009. You looked at the water gauge? - Yes.
2010. And there was no water in the boilers? - No.
2011. Then it had been let out, had it? - With the ship blowing off it had blown it out.
2012. Then after you had looked at the boilers and found they had no water in them what was the next order you got from Mr. Harvey? - To fetch some men down to keep the fires pulled.
2013. Would that be in all the sections? - No; only in No. 5 section.
2014. How many men were wanted for that? - I got between 15 and 20 down. There were 30 furnaces to pull.

Page 60

2015. How many furnaces are there in each section? - There are 30 in some sections, and there are 24 in some.
2016. But in No. 5 there are 30? - Yes.
2017. And you got some 15 men to help about it? - Yes.
2018. And did they draw the fires? - Yes.
2019. How long do you think it would take them to draw the fires? - It would take them 20 minutes.
2020. And after they had drawn the fires what happened to them? - I sent them up again.
2021. They went up again? - Yes.
2022. Did you stay below? - Yes.
2023. With Mr. Harvey? - Yes.
2024. Then what was the next order? - He asked me to lift the manhole plate off.
2025. Where was the manhole plate? - On the starboard side of No. 5 section.
2026. When the plate was in position what was it - closed? - It is something you lift up to get at the valves. I do not know what valves it is. It is just like a hole in this table. You lift it off to get to the valves to turn on the pumps or something.
2027. Is it in the floor? - Yes.
2028. And did you do that for him? - Yes.
2029. That would leave a hole in the floor? - Yes.
2030. And what happened then? - Mr. Shepherd was walking across in a hurry to do something and then fell down the hole and broke his leg.
2031. He did not notice the manhole plate had been lifted? - No.
2032. He broke his leg? - Yes.
2033. What did you do with him? - We lifted him up and carried him into the pump room, me and Mr. Harvey.
2034. Is that the pump room in No. 5? - Yes.
2035. At this time, in this No. 5, was it easy to see? - No, all the water which had been thrown on the furnaces when they were pulled out was making the stokehold thick with steam.
2036. And then you attended to Mr. Shepherd as best you could. Did you stay there after that? - Just about a quarter of an hour after that.
2037. And during that quarter of an hour did No. 5 keep free from water? - Yes.
2038. Then tell us what happened at the end of a quarter of an hour? - A rush of water came through the pass - the forward end.
2039. You say the forward end of the pass. What is the pass? - It is a space between the boilers where we walk through.
2040. There are boilers on either side of it? - Yes.
2041. From which direction did this water come? - From the forward end.
2042. And this pass that you walk through, is that at the same level as the plates? - Yes.
2043. The same level as where you were standing? - Yes.
2044. Supposing that the bulkhead which is the fore-end of No. 5 had given way, would water come through it and through this pass? - Yes.
2045. Do you know yourself where it was the water came from, whether it had got through the bulkhead or not? - I did not stop to look.
      The Solicitor-General: There is a plan here my friend Mr. Rowlatt has found, which is really a very great help in following this. May I bring it up to your Lordship. It is a plan which is numbered No. 3. At the bottom of this plan one gets the tank top level, and here No. E is the transfer section of the watertight bulkhead. W.T.D. is the watertight door to which the Witness said he had got. Immediately behind it is the bank of boilers, and here is the pass between two of the boilers.
      The Commissioner: Let the Witness come round here. (The Witness explained the plan to the Commissioner.)
      The Commissioner: Sir John, can you tell me what the height of the bulkhead is at this part?
      The Solicitor-General: It can be scaled, my Lord, of course. I have no doubt one of Mr. Laing's advisers can say.
      The Commissioner: It could not come over the top of the bulkhead, I suppose?
2046. (The Solicitor-General.) I was going to ask him. He could tell from his feet, of course, whether the ship had shown any tendency to tip, because that gives one some guide. (To the Witness.) Can you tell us, up to this time, was the ship lying on an even keel? - No, she was sloping down by the head.
2047. You felt that she was down by the head? - Yes.
2048. Had you noticed that already? - Yes.
2049. And had it been getting worse? - Yes.
2050. Had you ever remarked on it to Mr. Shepherd, or any of them? - No, we never passed any remarks, the engineers never had time to pass any remarks; they were working all the time.
2051. Can you tell me where you were when you first noticed it? Did you notice it in No. 5?
      You were in No. 5 after the first all the time. Had you noticed it before the lamps went out? - No.
2052. Had you noticed it before the electric light returned? - No.
2053. Then you said there was a quarter of an hour, about, before this rush of water? - After the fires were drawn.
2054. Had you noticed it while the fires were being drawn? - Yes.
2055. That is when you noticed it? - Yes.
2056. And you say it got worse. Now can you give me any idea whether the water came from over the top of the bulkhead or through it? - I do not see how it could come over the top.
2057. You do not think it did come over the top? - No.
2058. Now, when it came through this pass between the boilers, did it come with a rush? - Yes.
      The Commissioner: I suppose he means by that as if something had given way.
2059. (The Solicitor-General.) Do you hear my Lord's question? He is asking whether, when you said that, you got the impression that something had given way? - That was my idea.
2060. (The Commissioner.) Something that had been holding the water back gave way? - That is my idea, my Lord.
2061. (The Solicitor-General.) So it came with a rush? How fast did it fall? - I never stopped to look. I went up the ladder. Mr. Harvey told me to go up.
2062. (The Commissioner.) Could it have been a bunker bulkhead that gave way, do you think? - I have no idea on that, but that is the bunker that was holding the water back.
2063. It was the bunker that was holding the water back? - Yes.
      The Solicitor-General: It is entirely my fault, but I have not followed the meaning of that.
2064. (The Commissioner.) It was suggested to me that it was a bunker bulkhead that gave way, and that the water rushed from the bunker. (To the Witness.) Do you think that is possible? - It would be possible, because there are watertight compartments inside the bunker. There is a watertight compartment going through the centre of the bunker.
2065. Was the bunker door shut? - I dropped the bunker door.
2066. (The Solicitor-General.) I think there are the elements of a little confusion over this. The bulkhead runs across the ship from the starboard side to the port side, does it not? - Yes.
2067. Is there a coal bunker on either side of the bulkhead on the starboard side? - There is a watertight compartment running right through the centre of the bunker.
2068. There is the watertight bulkhead? - Yes.
2069. (The Commissioner.) But the bunker is partly on one side of the watertight bulkhead and partly on the other? - Yes.
2070. And the watertight bulkhead goes through the middle of the bunker? - Yes.
2071. And then across the ship? - Yes.

Page 61

2072. (The Solicitor-General.) If you imagine this box is the bunker and that is the starboard skin of the ship, the watertight bulkhead runs through it like that does it not, down the middle? - Yes.
2073. And you were on the after-side of this No. 5? - I was in No. 6 when we shipped it; I was on the after-side of the bulkhead later.
2074. You cannot tell what part of the watertight bulkhead it was which gave way? - No.
2075. But it was your impression that something gave way and the water came in with a rush? - Yes.
      The Solicitor-General: I see by this plan that the bulkhead, if you trace the line of it across the ship, runs down in a line between the two compartments of the coal bunkers, then it takes a right angle turn up to the watertight door, then it zigzags back again and then it goes through the corresponding bunker on the other side.
      The Commissioner: I do not quite understand that.

(The Solicitor-General explains the plan to his Lordship.)

(The Witness withdrew.)

(Adjourned to tomorrow at 10.30 o'clock.)